Author Topic: The Official Jeremy Bamber and White House Farm Podcast Series - Season 1  (Read 128568 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline David1819

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 13781
Re: The Official Jeremy Bamber and White House Farm Podcast Series
« Reply #810 on: August 28, 2021, 02:37:AM »
Thanks David, the problem is that the general public me included before I came on here thinks the case against JB is watertight!

Hopefully this place will get a lot more members when the documentary series is released.

Offline Roch

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17586
Re: The Official Jeremy Bamber and White House Farm Podcast Series
« Reply #811 on: August 28, 2021, 09:04:AM »
Hopefully this place will get a lot more members when the documentary series is released.

Which series? Not the Theroux company one? I can't see that doing JB any favours.

Offline Adam

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 44386
Re: The Official Jeremy Bamber and White House Farm Podcast Series
« Reply #812 on: August 28, 2021, 09:27:AM »
Thanks David, the problem is that the general public me included before I came on here thinks the case against JB is watertight!

It's not watertight?  Bamber's been trying to get released for 35 years.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 44386
Re: The Official Jeremy Bamber and White House Farm Podcast Series
« Reply #813 on: August 28, 2021, 09:30:AM »
COA:

We should perhaps add in fairness to the jury that the deeper we have delved into the available evidence the more likely it has seemed to us that the jury were right, but our views do not matter in this regard, it is the views of the jury that are paramount.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Online Rob_

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4822
Re: The Official Jeremy Bamber and White House Farm Podcast Series
« Reply #814 on: August 28, 2021, 11:40:AM »
COA:

We should perhaps add in fairness to the jury that the deeper we have delved into the available evidence the more likely it has seemed to us that the jury were right, but our views do not matter in this regard, it is the views of the jury that are paramount.


The jury may have been right with the evidence that was presented to them at trail, but any decent defense could have pulled the prosecution's case apart.


Offline Adam

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 44386
Re: The Official Jeremy Bamber and White House Farm Podcast Series
« Reply #815 on: August 28, 2021, 12:15:PM »

The jury may have been right with the evidence that was presented to them at trail, but any decent defense could have pulled the prosecution's case apart.

The COA 16 years after the trial, didn't agree.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

guest29835

  • Guest
Re: The Official Jeremy Bamber and White House Farm Podcast Series
« Reply #816 on: August 28, 2021, 12:40:PM »
I won't have new members brainwashed by fools, amateur gun enthusiasts or pseudo-intellectuals. It's time to ruffle a few feathers:

CLAIM: There was no forensic evidence whatsoever implicating Jeremy Bamber.

FACT: White House Farm was Jeremy's second home. As such there would be traces of his presence in situ. Much of the crime scene evidence was compromised anyway due to the cutting of the carpets and the burning of material. By the time John Hayward came to examine his clothes hanging up in the wardrobe at Bourtree Cottage in Goldhanger tiny spots of blood were detected, though too few for meaningful forensic analysis.

The claim, I agree, is untrue, but not for the reasons you say.  The claim should be correctly worded as follows: There is no direct evidence that Jeremy Bamber was the killer.  The point is that the case against him is entirely circumstantial, but includes forensic evidence.  (The point is slightly contentious because you could argue that Julie Mugford's evidence is direct evidence.  I would disagree, but even if we concede the point, there is still no direct forensic evidence).

I also agree that the crime scene was compromised by the police, but that was not at Jeremy's instigation and so could be seen as a neutral point, since the police may well have destroyed evidence that could have exonerated him.  It is also worth noting that the carpets were only cut up after blood samples were taken. 

Unless the blood spots you mention came from several victims, I doubt it would be of much significance as it could easily be put down to contamination of Jeremy's clothes.

CLAIM: There was only one fingerprint of Jeremy's on the murder weapon.

FACT: True, along with one of Sheila's, but why if he had been shooting rabbits only hours previously were more of his fingerprints not visible on the gun? A woman in psychosis is not going to wipe down the murder weapon: a man who wiped the gun after the fight with Nevill after a glove came off is.

I agree that someone must have wiped the gun, but I disagree that it had to be Jeremy.  I see no reason why Jeremy would, since as you say, his prints would be expected on the gun anyway.  Equally, I see no reason why Sheila would not have wiped the gun if she had just used it to kill her own children and parents.  If she also washed her hands, they would be clean and dry, meaning that she would leave no further prints when killing herself with that same gun.  For these reasons, the fingerprint evidence actually fits Sheila as the killer better than Jeremy.

CLAIM: Sheila had a psychotic episode and Nevill telephoned the police.

FACT: Sheila had trace elements of Haloperidol in her system. She had been stabilized and her medication reduced because she had been over-medicated previously. There is no record of Nevill Bamber ever reaching a telephone, because Jeremy Bamber had removed that lifeline from the master bedroom. No blood on the kitchen telephone suggests Nevill never reached it. Had there been a record of  Nevill's call PC West would have produced it for his boss, DCI Taff Jones, and the case would have been closed there and then.

You skip over two crucial facts:

1. Sheila had not been over-medicated, it was just that she reported that she did not like being on the drug and wanted her dosage reduced.
2. She was then accidentally under-medicated.  It is established that doing so abruptly, as happened here, can have adverse and catastrophic consequences.

We don't know that Jeremy did remove the phone from the master bedroom.  Again, that is not a true fact.  This was started by a prominent miscarriage of justice campaigner, who used it as a reason to doubt Jeremy, but in a previous thread I outlined why I think the theory is flawed.  Briefly, it's based on a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.  Jeremy had no reason to move the phone in the first place.

However, I agree with the other points you briefly make about the phone.

CLAIM: Julie Mugford was complicit in the crimes.

FACT: Julie was located at Caterham Road, London. Had she wanted to make the case water-tight she would have spent the evening of 6th August 1985 in Jeremy's bed and vouched for a telephone call from Nevill to back up his story. The fact that she had been smoking cannabis and told him to go back to bed suggests there had been no such pre-conceived mutual murder plan.

I have my views about this.  Just because she wasn't there, that does not preclude her from being an accomplice.  I don't accept that just because somebody is smoking cannabis, that this means she is not part of a mass murder plot.  To be clear: I am not saying she was.  But I will not say she wasn't, either.

CLAIM: The Matthew McDonald hitman story proves that Julie's statement to police was a pack of lies.

FACT: Julie was repeating Jeremy's pack of lies he had told her to police.

This may be true, but if Jeremy is the killer, then it wasn't a 'pack of lies', and why would Jeremy need to lie in such circumstances when he had supposedly already told her of his plans before-the-fact, and even confessed to her, in so many words, after-the-fact at Bourtree Cottage, with Stan Jones only yards away?  Perhaps, as you will no doubt say, it was because Jeremy didn't want her to know that he had done it himself, but it seems to me there is little difference between one or the other.

CLAIM: Julie didn't go to police, which proves her story is worthless.

FACT: Liz Rimington telephoned police. The Bamberettes want it all ways: that Julie went gung-ho to police out of revenge, desperately wanting a conviction. When in fact Julie was reluctant to go to police this is because the grounds on which she might have gone to police were shaky.

Why would the grounds on which she might have gone to the police be shaky, if she was telling the truth?  Surely a normal person, on receiving Jeremy's confession, would have alerted the police pretty much immediately?  Same goes for Sue Battersby, who frolicked with Jeremy at a party immediately after hearing Julie tell her what Jeremy had supposedly done.

The official position is that Julie went to the police (Liz Rimmington rang the police, but she did so on Julie's behalf and in her presence).  The Campaign Team are now saying that in fact Malcolm Waters went to the police independently of Julie and they claim to have a document proving this.  I've no idea if this stands up or what its relevance is, even if true.

CLAIM: Julie wanted to live at Vaulty Manor, be Lady of the Manor etc.

FACT: Julie was trying to hold down a career all through the time she was associated with Jeremy Bamber. She was never a something-for-nothing person. As stated in the podcast she had been on a working holiday, one of several jobs she held down during that period. Had she wanted to get her claws into Jeremy Bamber she could have fallen pregnant at any time.

She could also have pretended to be pregnant, I suppose. 

Pursuing a vocation and wanting to be Lady of the Manor (whatever that's supposed to mean) aren't necessarily mutually-exclusive aspirations.  That said, I'm not quite sure what the relevance of such claims is. 

Why did Jeremy disclose his plans to her?

Offline Steve_uk

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 21102
Re: The Official Jeremy Bamber and White House Farm Podcast Series
« Reply #817 on: August 28, 2021, 01:40:PM »
I'm not going to struggle with the highlighted cut and paste box interspersed with answers format, so you'll have to make do with traditional paragraphs.


You query the value of the blood evidence examined by John Hayward on Jeremy Bamber's clothes in the wardrobe at Bourtree Cottage. The blood groupings are exactly what we don't know and that was the whole point of raising the issue, so conveniently overlooked by the Bamberettes. Had there been a mixture I've no doubt the case would have been put to bed.

So Sheila wiped the gun after firing 25 rounds and reloading twice, none of them missing target, proceeded to wash hands and dry them, all with no nail varnish chipped or nails broken. Miraculous!

Sheila had been drowsy for weeks if not months. The medication had built up in her system. The Haloperidol dosage was reduced, not withdrawn completely. At post-mortem she still had trace elements in her system. You just need to look at her face in death to see she had been aroused from sleep, not engaging in Wonder Woman Lynda Carter activity in the wee hours. We may return to your psychology of women and the evaluation of their actions presently.

Julie is not at White House Farm. She is not at Bourtree Cottage. She is not in situ. Jeremy telephones her three times in the space of a few hours yet Julie is still doped up with cannabis, incapacitated. Yet to the Bamberettes Julie is the villain of the piece.  As a side note I recently dealt with a young man consuming cocaine. I couldn't get a word in edgeways with his excitable, rambling chatter. Does cannabis have the opposite effect of numbing the brain somewhat: methinks it might. The main point here is that Julie is caught off guard and is not complicit in murder.

Jeremy makes up a wildcat story about Matthew Mcdonald because he begins to sense Julie's anxiety and wishes to reassure her by distancing himself one step from the crime. If the Bamberettes don't understand this point I'm afraid they understand nothing. It's another sign that Jeremy is guilty because by the stage Julie eventually comes forward she is desperate to be believed and is not going to concoct a wild goose chase theory when her words are written down and become an official, legal document.

The relevance of Julie working several jobs as well as studying at university and enduring the stresses and strains of teaching practice is that throughout her relationship with Jeremy Bamber (even though she may have loved him passionately) she wanted to keep her own career and the independence which went with it.



« Last Edit: August 28, 2021, 01:46:PM by Steve_uk »

guest29835

  • Guest
Re: The Official Jeremy Bamber and White House Farm Podcast Series
« Reply #818 on: August 28, 2021, 01:57:PM »
You query the value of the blood evidence examined by John Hayward on Jeremy Bamber's clothes in the wardrobe at Bourtree Cottage. The blood groupings are exactly what we don't know and that was the whole point of raising the issue, so conveniently overlooked by the Bamberettes. Had there been a mixture I've no doubt the case would have been put to bed.

That was my own point, in so many words, but we must remember that blood grouping is not on its own conclusive.

So Sheila wiped the gun after firing 25 rounds, none of them missing target, proceeded to wash hands and dry them, all with no nail varnish chipped or nails broken. Miraculous!

Not really.  She could have done those things quite easily, but it does depend on her knowing how to operate the gun, load it, re-load it, etc.

Sheila had been drowsy for weeks if not months. The medication had built up in her system. The Haloperidol dosage was reduced, not withdrawn completely. At post-mortem she still had trace elements in her system. You just need to look at her face in death to see she had been aroused from sleep, not engaging in Wonder Woman Lynda Carter activity in the wee hours. We may return to your psychology of women and the evaluation of their actions presently.

I don't know what that is supposed to mean, but we'll put that aside.  Nothing that you say above challenges what I say.  You don't know that she was asleep.  The reality is that we just don't know what happened.

Julie is not at White House Farm. She is not at Bourtree Cottage. She is not in situ. Jeremy telephones her three times in the space of a few hours yet Julie is still doped up with cannabis, incapacitated. Yet to the Bamberettes Julie is the villain of the piece.  As a side note I recently dealt with a young man consuming cocaine. I couldn't get a word in edgeways with his excitable, rambling chatter. Does cannabis have the opposite effect of numbing the brain somewhat: methinks it might. The main point here is that Julie is caught off guard.

I merely say that an accomplice does not have to be present, ergo you make an incorrect assumption if you argue that not being present rules her out of involvement.  She wasn't incapacitated if she could answer the phone at 3 a.m. or 3.15 a.m. or 3.30 a.m., or whenever it was when he was supposed to have rung.  Jeremy himself seems to have been quite the dope user, but he was not incapacitated by any means.  I still think it was strange that he rang her at that time at all and that she answered.  She also got it wrong in her first statement, claiming somebody else answered when in fact she did - which just deepens my suspicion as it seems convenient that she was on-hand to answer the phone at such an odd hour at Jeremy's first attempt.  She was then up at the crack of dawn, ready to go over to Essex at his command.

Jeremy makes up a wildcat story about Matthew Mcdonald because he begins to sense Julie's anxiety and wishes to reassure her by distancing himself one step from the crime. If the Bamberettes don't understand this point I'm afraid they understand nothing. It's another sign that Jeremy is guilty because by the stage Julie eventually comes forward she is desperate to be believed and is not going to concoct a wild goose chase theory when her words are written down and become an official, legal document.

I am not a 'Bamberette', whatever that is supposed is to be.  I find your arguments less-than-convincing.  If Jeremy wishes to distance himself from the crime, he would not have discussed it with her in such a manner at all.  Telling her that he hired a hitman is hardly distancing himself.  If anything, it's worse, and he pins it on somebody they both knew, which is crazy.  If he can put on an act with others, he can put on an act with her, so why not just lie?  By confessing to her, even under cover of a quasi-fictitious story, he puts himself completely in her hands, for the rest of his life.  Then again, maybe he was just that foolish.  I don't rule it out completely.

The relevance of Julie working several jobs as well as studying at university and partaking in teaching practice is that throughout her relationship with Jeremy Bamber (even though she may have loved him passionately) she wanted to keep her own career and the independence which went with it.

I wasn't questioning the relevancy of what you were saying.

Offline Steve_uk

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 21102
Re: The Official Jeremy Bamber and White House Farm Podcast Series
« Reply #819 on: August 28, 2021, 02:02:PM »
By the way: it's depressing how we've lost most of our female members over the years.

guest29835

  • Guest
Re: The Official Jeremy Bamber and White House Farm Podcast Series
« Reply #820 on: August 28, 2021, 02:09:PM »
By the way: it's depressing how we've lost most of our female members over the years.

I've always assumed that you're female.

I don't personally care what sex or race somebody on here is.  It's got nothing to do with it.  If I make a point against women generally, it's not because I'm against women, it's because I'm just telling you what I think.  There are plenty of things I can say about men as well.  Give me five minutes and I'll have you convinced I'm a misandrist.

Back to the topic in hand, a prominent judge in England once commented that a major reason for miscarriages of justice is that a female witness lies.  If Julie lied in the sense of making the whole thing up, that would be a big, big lie.  The bigness of the lie almost is a ground in itself to be sceptical about Jeremy's claims of innocence.

Would somebody lie that much, on that scale?

Offline Steve_uk

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 21102
Re: The Official Jeremy Bamber and White House Farm Podcast Series
« Reply #821 on: August 28, 2021, 02:24:PM »
I've always assumed that you're female.

I don't personally care what sex or race somebody on here is.  It's got nothing to do with it.  If I make a point against women generally, it's not because I'm against women, it's because I'm just telling you what I think.  There are plenty of things I can say about men as well.  Give me five minutes and I'll have you convinced I'm a misandrist.

Back to the topic in hand, a prominent judge in England once commented that a major reason for miscarriages of justice is that a female witness lies.  If Julie lied in the sense of making the whole thing up, that would be a big, big lie.  The bigness of the lie almost is a ground in itself to be sceptical about Jeremy's claims of innocence.

Would somebody lie that much, on that scale?
I'm a Christian first, heterosexual male second. Make of that what you will. I suppose in theory anybody could lie on a big scale. I've just watched the Wayne Williams case on YouTube and butter wouldn't melt. Bamberettes might be pleased he failed a polygraph.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2021, 02:25:PM by Steve_uk »

guest29835

  • Guest
Re: The Official Jeremy Bamber and White House Farm Podcast Series
« Reply #822 on: August 28, 2021, 02:30:PM »
I'm a Christian first, heterosexual male second. Make of that what you will. I suppose in theory anybody could lie on a big scale. I've just watched the Wayne Williams case on YouTube and butter wouldn't melt. Bamberettes might be pleased he failed a polygraph.

Yes.  However, I must admit: whenever my finger hovers over the imaginary 'Not Guilty' button, I always hesitate and think of the scale of the lie that would be necessary on Julie's part.  I have tried to reconcile her story with Jeremy's: from the innocence side, by speculating that Jeremy was just winding her up; and, from the guilty side, by postulating that she was an accomplice (albeit not present) on the basis of alleged facts and she then turned against Jeremy in a grand prisoner's dilemma.

Offline David1819

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 13781
Re: The Official Jeremy Bamber and White House Farm Podcast Series
« Reply #823 on: August 28, 2021, 04:51:PM »
Which series? Not the Theroux company one? I can't see that doing JB any favours.

What makes you say that?

Offline Roch

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17586
Re: The Official Jeremy Bamber and White House Farm Podcast Series
« Reply #824 on: August 28, 2021, 05:42:PM »
What makes you say that?

From what I can gather, they initially purported to be interested in evidence relating to the case / new submissions. However, their interest was apparently superficial and their aims regarding the documentary are not thought to be beneficial to the defence. Didn't they try to contact that 'Daisy' over on red? Not sure, but there was something posted claiming that.