Author Topic: Why Weren't There More Fingerprints On The Rifle?  (Read 1439 times)

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guest29835

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Why Weren't There More Fingerprints On The Rifle?
« on: September 15, 2020, 12:59:PM »
Until now, the fingerprint evidence from the rifle had been one of my 10 points against Jeremy.  I had based this on a summary understanding of this aspect of the evidence: i.e. two clear prints found, one Jeremy's, the other Sheila's, and some smudged prints.  I had never really understood the actual fingerprint examination records taken, but that didn't seem to matter as the evidence is summarised well enough by Ronald Cook in the relevant statement.

My view was that:

(i). if Sheila fired the rifle as many times as the defence imply, then there would almost-certainly be more of her prints on the rifle;

(ii). even if we extend to Jeremy the fullest benefit of doubt and say that Sheila wiped the rifle of blood as part of a pre-suicide washing ritual, thus removing prints, she would still then have to leave prints on the rifle if she shot herself twice at different angles.  If you consider her slight frame, she would have to grip the rifle tightly; and,

(iii). Jeremy would want to remove gloved blood prints from the rifle, so would wipe it.

I now believe I may have been mistaken about all this.  Having given the matter some more thought, I think I may now have to cross this evidence off my 'Why Jeremy Is Guilty' list and put it in the Reasonable Doubt column.  Here I will explain why. 

First, it is clear to me from the fingerprint evidence that the rifle has probably been wiped by somebody, though I can't be certain of that.  There are five possibilities:

1. The rifle was wiped by Jeremy.
2. The rifle was wiped by Sheila.
3. The rifle was wiped by both Jeremy and Sheila.
4. The rifle was wiped by Ron Cook (or another police officer or FSS staff member, or some other individual).
5. The rifle was not wiped.

Let's consider each:

1. The rifle was wiped by Jeremy.

I am assuming that if Jeremy is the killer, he wore gloves.  However, it is common ground that this is Jeremy's rifle (albeit, legally Nevill's) and everybody accepts that Jeremy's prints must be on the rifle.  If anything, it would be more suspicious if they weren't, and indeed the lack of more of Jeremy's prints is itself a ground for suspicion because it suggests somebody has intentionally wiped the rifle.  Yet, I am assuming Jeremy would have other reasons to wear gloves and he would want to remove gloved blood prints from the rifle.  This seems to make sense, but there is a problem.

If Jeremy removes his gloved blood prints from the rifle, he must do this prior to killing Sheila, or if he killed Sheila first, then he removes the prints prior to placing the rifle on Sheila's body.  This means the rifle is wiped at that point, however the mistake I think the police/prosecutors/guilters - and myself! - make is in thinking that he wipes the rifle just to remove prints. 

There is another reason he wipes the rifle, which is that he needs Sheila's prints to be on the rifle and the only way to ensure that is to remove any obvious contamination on the action, stock and barrel.  Let us assume Jeremy does just that.  Why, then, are we left with only one clear print of Sheila's on the stock?  Remember that in this scenario, Jeremy is fabricating evidence by planting Sheila's prints on the rifle.

There are two possible explanations:

1.1. The smudged prints on the barrel and action are Jeremy's attempt to plant Sheila's prints on the gun.

1.2. Sheila was clean and this explains Jeremy's lack of success in planting more of Sheila's prints.  Fingerprints rely on grease, dirt, moisture, blood, sweat, etc.

Either or both are possible, but they seem unlikely.

The problem with 1.1 is that, if Jeremy is a premeditated killer, it does seem unlikely that he would leave such a limited number of prints of Sheila's on the rifle, though in fairness, it could be that Jeremy panicked or it may be that Jeremy was nervous about leaving too many prints in the belief that it may look too 'obvious'.  But would Jeremy panic, having planned it?  And would Jeremy really think deeply about what he is doing to the extent of trying to second-guess the police?

We should also consider that the print smudging on the barrel may due to somebody wiping it, and if so, we are left with the mystery of why Jeremy has only put one of Sheila's print on the rifle, and on the stock of the rifle.  That makes no sense.  It also makes no sense that Jeremy would forget, since again, we have Sheila's print on the stock.  Maybe the stock print was from Sheila's handling of the rifle prior to the incident? But guilters want us to believe that Sheila never handled the rifle.

The problem with 1.2 is very obvious: Sheila's print is on the rifle.  Furthermore, we have the problem that, even if we put the best interpretation on things and say Sheila had slept throughout the massacre, we can't assume that Sheila had dry skin after several hours spent in bed.  The scenario becomes more implausible still as soon as we accept that is it likely Sheila must have woken at some stage (again, assuming Jeremy has not shot her before the others).

2. The rifle was wiped by Sheila.

If Sheila is the killer, she may have wiped the rifle because it had blood on it and/or because in her mind it was appropriate for her to 'clean' it before committing suicide.

In this scenario, we are left having to explain why there is only one of Sheila's prints on the stock, despite having shot herself twice.  The answer to this, again, is in the washing ritual.  As mentioned above, fingerprints are the result of dirt, oil and sweat from the skin.  The room was cool and if she had just washed and dried herself, it is unlikely she would have left further prints on the rifle, even if gripping it tightly.

To be clear - In this scenario, Sheila is not wiping the rifle to remove prints, rather she is wiping the rifle to clean it, with the consequence that it removes most or all prints, if you see the distinction.

3. The rifle was wiped by both Jeremy and Sheila.

In this scenario, Sheila is the killer and an innocent Jeremy wipes the rifle before leaving it leaning against the wall in the back hallway on the evening of the 6th.  Jeremy may simply have forgot he had done this.  If he is innocent, there will be small things like this that he did automatically or out of habit that he may not have recalled.

4. The rifle was wiped by Ron Cook (or somebody else).

Ron Cook handled the rifle without gloves.  I won't here get drawn into a police procedural debate about whether he should have done this.  Suffice it to say that, even with the best police methods, contamination is inevitable and unavoidable anyway, but by not using gloves, D.I. Cook obviously greatly increased the risk of compromising the evidence.

Again that background, it is possible that Ron Cook wiped the rifle in order to remove his own prints and only later admitted that he had not used gloves. Equally, it is possible that an officer of the raid group who handled the rifle at the outset wiped it for perfectly proper and innocent reasons but then forgot to record this somewhere. 

There are other possibilities, such as loss of prints during handling and examination of the rifle by SOC officers and/or FSS staff or the rifle becoming contaminated by being stored in its case (there is a photograph somewhere, taken pre-trial, of Stan Jones posing with the rifle in its case).  I won't go further into all that here.

5. The rifle was not wiped.

As stated above, prints are the result of dirt, oil and sweat from the skin, and the house was cool.  These factors could mean that few fingerprints were impressed on the rifle.  Also, we should factor in that whether prints (gloved or bare-finger) are left on a rifle depends on how the rifle is handled.  We should also consider the fact that fingerprints can be missed and police forensic methods used at that time were not as advanced as today.

Conclusions

For the reasons given above, my (very tentative) conclusion is that the fingerprint evidence fits a Sheila scenario better than a Jeremy scenario.  It doesn't make sense to me that Jeremy would wipe the rifle of his own blood prints and then just put one of Sheila's prints on the stock.

guest7363

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Re: Why Aren't There More Fingerprints On The Rifle?
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2020, 01:11:PM »
Until now, the fingerprint evidence from the rifle had been one of my 10 points against Jeremy.  I had based this on a summary understanding of this aspect of the evidence: i.e. two clear prints found, one Jeremy's, the other Sheila's, and some smudged prints.  I had never really understood the actual fingerprint examination records taken, but that didn't seem to matter as the evidence is summarised well enough by Ronald Cook in the relevant statement.

My view was that:

(i). if Sheila fired the rifle as many times as the defence imply, then there would almost-certainly be more of her prints on the rifle;

(ii). even if we extend to Jeremy the fullest benefit of doubt and say that Sheila wiped the rifle of blood as part of a pre-suicide washing ritual, thus removing prints, she would still then have to leave prints on the rifle if she shot herself twice at different angles.  If you consider her slight frame, she would have to grip the rifle tightly; and,

(iii). Jeremy would want to remove gloved blood prints from the rifle, so would wipe it.

I now believe I may have been mistaken about all this.  Having given the matter some more thought, I think I may now have to cross this evidence off my 'Why Jeremy Is Guilty' list and put it in the Reasonable Doubt column.  Here I will explain why. 

First, it is clear to me from the fingerprint evidence that the rifle has probably been wiped by somebody, though I can't be certain of that.  There are five possibilities:

1. The rifle was wiped by Jeremy.
2. The rifle was wiped by Sheila.
3. The rifle was wiped by both Jeremy and Sheila.
4. The rifle was wiped by Ron Cook (or another police officer or FSS staff member,  or some other third party).
5. The rifle was not wiped.

Let's consider each:

1. The rifle was wiped by Jeremy.

I am assuming that if Jeremy is the killer, he wore gloves.  However, it is Jeremy's rifle and it is common ground that Jeremy's prints must be on the rifle.  If anything, it would be more suspicious if they weren't, and indeed the lack of Jeremy's prints is itself a ground for suspicion because it suggests somebody has intentionally wiped the rifle.  Yet, I am assuming Jeremy would have other reasons to wear gloves and he would want to remove gloved blood prints from the rifle.  This seems to make sense, but there is a problem.

If Jeremy removes his gloved blood prints from the rifle, he must do this prior to killing Sheila, or if he killed Sheila first, then he removes the prints prior to placing the rifle on Sheila's body.  This means the rifle is wiped at that point, however the mistake I think the police/prosecutors/guilters make is in thinking that he wipes the rifle just to remove prints. 

There is another reason he wipes the rifle, which is that he needs Sheila's prints to be on the rifle and the only way to ensure that is to remove any obvious contamination on the action, stock and barrel.  Let us assume Jeremy does just that.  Why, then, are we left with only one clear print of Sheila's on the stock?  Remember that in this scenario, Jeremy is fabricating evidence by planting Sheila's prints on the rifle.

There are two possible explanations:

1.1. The smudged prints on the barrel and action are Jeremy's attempt to plant Sheila's prints on the gun.

1.2. Sheila was clean and this explains Jeremy's lack of success in planting more of Sheila's prints.  Fingerprints rely on grease, dirt, moisture, blood, sweat, etc.

Either or both are possible, but they seem unlikely.

The problem with 1.1 is that, if Jeremy is a premeditated killer, it does seem unlikely that he would leave such a limited number of prints of Sheila's on the rifle, though in fairness, it could be that Jeremy panicked or it may be that Jeremy was nervous about leaving too many prints in the belief that it may look too 'obvious'.  But would Jeremy panic, having planned it?  And would Jeremy really think deeply about what he is doing to the extent of trying to second-guess the police?

We should also consider that the print smudging on the barrel may due to somebody wiping it, and if so, we are left with the mystery of why Jeremy has only put one Sheila print on the rifle, and on the stock of the rifle.  That makes no sense.  Maybe the stock print was from Sheila's handling of the rifle prior to the incident, but guilters want us to believe that Sheila never handled the rifle.

The problem with 1.2 is very obvious: Sheila's print is on the rifle.  Furthermore, we have the problem that, even if we put the best interpretation on things and say Sheila had slept throughout the massacre, we can't assume that Sheila had dry skin after several hours spent in bed.  The scenario becomes more implausible still as soon as we accept that is it likely Sheila must have woken at some stage (again, assuming Jeremy has not shot her before the others).

2. The rifle was wiped by Sheila.

If Sheila is the killer, she may have wiped the rifle because it had blood on it and/or because in her mind it was appropriate for her to 'clean' it before committing suicide.

In this scenario, we are left having to explain why there is only one of Sheila's prints on the stock, despite having shot herself twice.  The answer to this, again, is in the washing ritual.  As mentioned above, fingerprints are the result of dirt, oil and sweat from the skin.  The room was cool and if she had just washed and dried herself, it is unlikely she would have left further prints on the rifle, even if gripping it tightly.

3. The rifle was wiped by both Jeremy and Sheila.

In this scenario, Sheila is the killer and an innocent Jeremy wipes the rifle before leaving it leaning against the wall in the back hallway on the evening of the 6th.  Jeremy may simply have forgot he had done this.  If he is innocent, there will be small things like this that he did automatically or out of habit that he may not have recalled.

4. The rifle was wiped by Ron Cook (or somebody else).

Rifle handled the rifle without gloves.  I won't here get drawn into a police procedural debate about whether he should have done this.  Suffice it to say that, even with the best police methods, contamination is inevitable and unavoidable anyway, but by not using gloves, D.I. Cook obviously greatly increased the risk of compromising the evidence.

Again that background, it is possible that Ron Cook wiped the rifle in order to remove his own prints and only later admitted that he had not used gloves. Equally, it is possible that an officer of the raid group who handled the rifle at the outset wiped it for perfectly proper and innocent reasons but then forgot to record this somewhere. 

There are other possibilities, such as loss of prints during handling and examination of the rifle by SOC officers and/or FSS staff or the rifle becoming contaminated by being stored in its case (there is a photograph somewhere, taken pre-trial of Stan Jones posing with the rifle in its case).  I won't go further into all that here.

5. The rifle was not wiped.

As stated above, prints are the result of dirt, oil and sweat from the skin, and the house was cool.  These factors could mean that few fingerprints were impressed on the rifle.  Also, we should factor in that whether prints (gloved or bare-finger) are left on a rifle depends on how the rifle is handled.  We should also consider the fact that fingerprints can be missed and police forensic methods used at that time were not as advanced as today.

Conclusions

For the reasons given above, my (very tentative) conclusion is that the fingerprint evidence fits a Sheila scenario better than a Jeremy scenario.  It doesn't make sense to me that Jeremy would wipe the rifle of his own blood prints and then just put one Sheila print on the stock.
What utter utter nonsense, Sheila who ain’t bothered who finds her prints she’s ending her life  and Jeremy trying to frame Sheila, yet you say Sheila would be the most likely to wipe the rifle down, what stupid nonsense. 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

guest29835

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Re: Why Aren't There More Fingerprints On The Rifle?
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2020, 01:16:PM »
What utter utter nonsense, Sheila who ain’t bothered who finds her prints she’s ending her life  and Jeremy trying to frame Sheila, yet you say Sheila would be the most likely to wipe the rifle down, what stupid nonsense. 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

As I just added above (prior to seeing this) and which I will repeat here in response to this arrogant bullying idiot:

In this scenario, Sheila is not wiping the rifle to remove prints, rather she is wiping the rifle to clean it, with the consequence that it removes most or all prints, if you see the distinction.

I don't expect the biased idiot above to grasp the point, but I hope other more sensible people will appreciate what I am getting at.

Offline Adam

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Re: Why Weren't There More Fingerprints On The Rifle?
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2020, 01:43:PM »
The prints on the rifle have never been put forward by the prosecution or defence to assist them.

A source would be needed that this rifle would pick up a lot of finger prints if held. In that case Bamber's prints will be all over it as he handed the rifle a few days before, and a few hours before & during the massacre.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2020, 01:43:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

guest29835

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Re: Why Weren't There More Fingerprints On The Rifle?
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2020, 01:46:PM »
The prints on the rifle have never been put forward by the prosecution or defence to assist them.

A source would be needed that this rifle would pick up a lot of finger prints if held. In that case Bamber's prints will be all over it as he handed the rifle a few days before, and a few hours before & during the massacre.

And I'm not.  I'm putting forward inferences from the absence of prints to support a case of reasonable doubt.

Offline David1819

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Re: Why Weren't There More Fingerprints On The Rifle?
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2020, 01:48:PM »
If I remember correctly, it’s not unusual to find a lack of fingerprints on a gun specially the metal parts. Finger prints need a rather flat surface. There were no prints found on the silencer either.

Offline Adam

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« Last Edit: September 15, 2020, 01:56:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

guest29835

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Re: Why Weren't There More Fingerprints On The Rifle?
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2020, 01:59:PM »
If I remember correctly, it’s not unusual to find a lack of fingerprints on a gun specially the metal parts. Finger prints need a rather flat surface. There were no prints found on the silencer either.

Yes, but bear in mind that criminals will often use gloves and/or wipe a gun after use, whereas Jeremy is supposed to have used this rifle regularly for lawful purposes, without hand protection.

It seems to me we have a logical contradiction, which I would describe as follows:

Sheila and Jeremy have left at least one print each on the rifle, yet Jeremy used the rifle perhaps daily. 

Where are Jeremy's prints?  Shouldn't the absence of Jeremy's prints be viewed as suspicious in itself?  I'm not saying this is of central importance, but it does, to me, look like somebody has wiped those prints away.  This needn't have been Jeremy himself, it could have been Sheila, or Jeremy could have done so innocently.

Offline Adam

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Re: Why Weren't There More Fingerprints On The Rifle?
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2020, 02:08:PM »
Doubful Bamber wiped the rifle. It wouldn't be hard to find out that rifles do not pick up prints easily.

If his prints were on it, that is easily explained. If Sheila's prints are not on it, that is easily explained.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2020, 02:11:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

guest29835

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Re: Why Weren't There More Fingerprints On The Rifle?
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2020, 02:18:PM »
Doubful Bamber wiped the rifle. It wouldn't be hard to find out that rifles do not pick up prints easily.

If his prints were on it, that is easily explained. If Sheila's prints are not on it, that is easily explainef.

I'd already thought of all that and address it above.

Jeremy wouldn't care too much if his prints are on the rifle, but he will be leaving blooded gloved prints on the rifle as well, which will look suspicious as nobody is going to believe that Sheila was wearing gloves.
Also, and separate to that, what's being forgotten is that he has to put Sheila's prints on the rifle - a different thing to worrying about his own prints.

You say Sheila's prints don't matter.  I differ from you in that I don't accept that a lack of prints can be easily brushed aside.  Why would the police bother looking for prints in the first place if it doesn't matter?  They knew it was a murder-suicide, didn't they?

A lack of Jeremy's prints looks suspicious because it's his rifle and he has been using it for lawful purposes on a daily basis. 

A lack of Sheila's prints looks suspicious and demands an explanation because she is supposed to have fired the rifle maybe 25 or so times.  She must have got her hands and fingers on the stock, action/mechanism and barrel and left prints.

Also, I again highlight the logical contradiction of finding only two clear prints at peripheral locations on the rifle, yet we're told it's so hard to get prints on a rifle.  Then why are those prints there? 

It does look to me as if somebody has wiped the rifle, and from the surrounding facts, this had to be done intentionally, even if someone had previously also done so innocently.

Offline Adam

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Re: Why Weren't There More Fingerprints On The Rifle?
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2020, 02:25:PM »
Believe this is a dead end. Even the CT have not brought this up.

Back to Julie perjuring herself because Bamber said he jilted her.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

guest29835

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Re: Why Weren't There More Fingerprints On The Rifle?
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2020, 06:43:PM »
Believe this is a dead end. Even the CT have not brought this up.

Back to Julie perjuring herself because Bamber said he jilted her.

Thanks Adam.  In future, I'll make sure I ask you before I post any new ideas.  This must be why Myster and Real Justice won't let me join in at Cluedo.

guest29835

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Re: Why Weren't There More Fingerprints On The Rifle?
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2020, 02:40:PM »
This is for my purposes, as others don't seem to place much stall on the fingerprint evidence.  Here I will just organise my thoughts.

Obviously, with fingerprint evidence we must take into account the unreliability of the techniques for finding latent prints; there is furthermore an element of subjectivity in interpreting latent prints, and we must also consider how different types of people might handle the rifle and how this could affect fingerprinting.  Even so, it seems to me that tentative deductions can be made and the fingerprint evidence from the rifle points more to Sheila than Jeremy.

The evidence suggests that the rifle has been wiped at some point.  This is because Jeremy, a manual worker on a farm, regularly used and handled the rifle, presumably without gloves, yet only five prints were found: one form Sheila, one from Jeremy, and three smudged prints.

The rifle could have been wiped inadvertently, by means of the operator handling the rifle with gloves or a police officer handling the rifle without gloves, and/or could have been wiped intentionally, by Jeremy, Sheila or Ron Cook, or some combination of those individuals, for whatever reason.

I think the fingerprint evidence points away from Jeremy and towards Sheila because:

(i). Jeremy had no reason to remove his own latent prints from the rifle;
(ii). if Jeremy was the killer, he may have needed to remove blooded glove prints from the rifle, viewing these as incriminating, but that would be done prior to killing Sheila and/or staging Sheila's prints on the rifle;
(iii). prior to, or while, positioning the rifle on or by Sheila's body, he would have attempted to stage prints on the rifle, yet there is only one print of Sheila's on the stock, which makes no sense;
(iv). the police attempted to explain the absence of more prints through one of Julie Mugford's statements, by suggesting that a glove came off during the alleged struggle between Nevill and 'Matthew Macdonald' (i.e. Jeremy).  However, Julie's statement in this regard is flawed and can only raise more questions, because, first, even if such a struggle took place, a spare glove was not found, meaning that the alleged assailant must have replaced it; and, second, any such struggle would have to take place prior to the staging of Sheila's prints on the rifle, which means Julie's explanation is not logical in that it is chronologically out-of-sequence and thus either Julie is not telling the truth, or Jeremy's actions were illogical in that he has misled Julie and/or he has only staged one print on the stock, despite the ability to leave prints as confirmed by their presence on different parts of the rifle;
(v). in contrast to all these problems, if we imagine Sheila was the killer, then we have a simple explanation. If Sheila wiped the rifle, she may have held it at the stock, thus leaving a print there, and she may not have wiped the end of the barrel or the top of the action as much or at all, thus leaving the other four prints in those locations;
(vi). if Sheila then washed and dried herself, even if just her hands, it would then be difficult to lift any of her latent prints from the rifle as there would be no moisture on her fingertips or on the action/mechanism.

To take that last point further: Sheila wiping the rifle need not be related to any so-called 'ritualistic washing' theory.  She may have wiped the rifle for the ordinary reason that it had blood on it and she didn't want that on the rifle before killing herself.  That need not be related to psychosis.  It can be imagined that a person without any psychiatric problems who commits murder-suicide may well still wipe the rifle in similar circumstances, simply to avoid coming into further contact with the blood.  That seems to me a pretty ordinary explanation, not exotic.

It follows from this that the same would apply to her hands.  She would wash and dry her hands to avoid having further blood on herself and on the chosen suicide weapon.  Again, this need not have anything to do with 'ritualistic washing' or any insight from psychiatry.