Author Topic: Reasons why Bamber cycled to & from WHF.  (Read 15220 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

guest29835

  • Guest
Re: Reasons why Bamber cycled to & from WHF.
« Reply #210 on: August 25, 2020, 09:05:PM »
1. Do you still regard Jeremy Bamber as a non-predator?

2. What were Jeremy's relationships with his family like?

1. Yes. This is mainly because I don't accept the inheritance motive theory, as I don't believe it stands up under close scrutiny.  I think Jeremy had a bit more business nous than that and I also think his alleged actions in the aftermath of the incident are inconsistent with inheritance as a motive.  He would not be disposing of everything and living it up, as is alleged, if he had killed to take over the estates himself.  Rather, I see his actions as consistent with somebody in shock, either because he is an innocent victim too, or because he did it, but for other reasons or no reason and he cannot himself quite believe what he has done.  In that latter scenario, Jeremy has brought disaster on himself because, though he may have some business ability, he would not be quite up to it at that point, being a 'young' 24 and inexperienced, and he is now surrounded by potentially antagonistic (if not hostile) relatives who are part of the same farming-business cluster.  In either scenario, innocent or guilty, Jeremy is vulnerable.

I think the reason inheritance as a motive is promoted is because it's very easy for people to grasp, not necessarily because it's actually true or wholly true.  I accept the obvious point that Jeremy would have inherited a substantial estate and I also accept that if Jeremy had killed his family just for gain, then that would point to him being a potential psychopath, and such actions would furthermore fit the definition of 'predator', but I cannot accept it was that simple, for several reasons, one being that it just seems highly improbable.  He would have to sit down and plan to kill two little boys, for one thing.  I can't see it, personally.  I know it can happen, though it must be exceedingly rare. 

I also don't believe the killing was planned at length or with any sophistication.  The phone call idea, for instance, I think may have come up on the night after things went wrong with Nevill, and this would fit more with the timings and having to move on foot.  It hardly makes sense for him to plan to shoot Nevill in bed and then pretend there was a phone call, but if things have gone wrong, it may make more sense for him to stage a call and move the phones around (though it could equally be that there was coincidentally a genuine problem with the domestic phones and he knew this).

2. Rough and smooth. I think Jeremy essentially told the truth about this to police in the interview.  He must have got on with his father for them to work together, but I can also imagine his father being snappy and on edge with him.  The photograph of Nevill I started a thread on, in which he looks to have been taken by surprise when out working, shooting or game keeping, or whatever, shows a man with concerns and worries etched on his face, which is sad when you consider how old he was. 

The photographs I have seen of June show her as uncomfortable, and I do not believe she was terribly close to Jeremy, but I think the relationship would have been amicable.  She probably channelled all her concerns about Jeremy through male figures in the family, including Nevill especially and also Robert Boutflour. 

Sheila and Jeremy were not very close either.  Jeremy may not have seen too much of the twins.   

When initially Jeremy told the police the relationships were good, this was seen as suspicious but it could equally be viewed innocently.  If we imagine an innocent man has just been told all his family are dead and it's murder-suicide by his sister, why does he need to go into careful nuances about his family relationships?  Of course, if he is guilty, that puts a different complexion on the matter.

Offline Steve_uk

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 21091
Re: Reasons why Bamber cycled to & from WHF.
« Reply #211 on: August 25, 2020, 09:30:PM »
Nobody on my side of the argument claimed Jeremy was going to run the farm business himself. As for the familial relationships I'll let your comments speak for themselves.

guest29835

  • Guest
Re: Reasons why Bamber cycled to & from WHF.
« Reply #212 on: August 25, 2020, 09:49:PM »
Nobody on my side of the argument claimed Jeremy was going to run the farm business himself. As for the familial relationships I'll let your comments speak for themselves.

That, as I see it, is exactly the problem.  I think he would have to run the farm business himself if the inheritance motive was going to work.  The alternatives are that:

(i). he brings in somebody to run the farm on a day-to-day basis; or,
(ii). he sells up.

Option (i) could work, assuming there is cash flow to support a professional farm manager's salary, yet what initially actually happened is that he brought in somebody from an antagonistic branch of the family.  It seems to me that this contradicts the inheritance motive because although he still inherits the farm, he is involving people in its running who may challenge his position.  Why would he want Peter Eaton involved?  Maybe he thinks Peter Eaton will be happy to work as his farm manager, in addition to owning and running his own farms, but surely Jeremy had sufficient nous about the familial and business dynamics to appreciate that was a bad idea if he wanted the inheritance for himself.

Option (ii) is what Jeremy seems to have regarded as a possibility once the estate was probated and sorted out, but this was not decided on and it would be inconsistent with the inheritance motive.  It means he is cashing-out on an uncertain financial basis.  To optimise the liquidation of the estates, he would need to show that he is capably running the farms.  At the very least, it doesn't seem very well planned or thought out.

Let's go back to first principles.  To me, an inheritance motive involves a perpetrator identifying a direct pecuniary gain as a result of his criminal acts.  Contrary to what is being claimed, that could not have been the case here, as the situation was more complex and involved the complications of several working businesses.  He can't just 'cash out'.  It's really not that simple and Jeremy was a fairly bright guy and would have known that.

Offline Jane

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 33773
Re: Reasons why Bamber cycled to & from WHF.
« Reply #213 on: August 25, 2020, 10:47:PM »
1. Yes. This is mainly because I don't accept the inheritance motive theory, as I don't believe it stands up under close scrutiny.  I think Jeremy had a bit more business nous than that and I also think his alleged actions in the aftermath of the incident are inconsistent with inheritance as a motive.  He would not be disposing of everything and living it up, as is alleged, if he had killed to take over the estates himself.  Rather, I see his actions as consistent with somebody in shock, either because he is an innocent victim too, or because he did it, but for other reasons or no reason and he cannot himself quite believe what he has done.  In that latter scenario, Jeremy has brought disaster on himself because, though he may have some business ability, he would not be quite up to it at that point, being a 'young' 24 and inexperienced, and he is now surrounded by potentially antagonistic (if not hostile) relatives who are part of the same farming-business cluster.  In either scenario, innocent or guilty, Jeremy is vulnerable.

I think the reason inheritance as a motive is promoted is because it's very easy for people to grasp, not necessarily because it's actually true or wholly true.  I accept the obvious point that Jeremy would have inherited a substantial estate and I also accept that if Jeremy had killed his family just for gain, then that would point to him being a potential psychopath, and such actions would furthermore fit the definition of 'predator', but I cannot accept it was that simple, for several reasons, one being that it just seems highly improbable.  He would have to sit down and plan to kill two little boys, for one thing.  I can't see it, personally.  I know it can happen, though it must be exceedingly rare. 

I also don't believe the killing was planned at length or with any sophistication.  The phone call idea, for instance, I think may have come up on the night after things went wrong with Nevill, and this would fit more with the timings and having to move on foot.  It hardly makes sense for him to plan to shoot Nevill in bed and then pretend there was a phone call, but if things have gone wrong, it may make more sense for him to stage a call and move the phones around (though it could equally be that there was coincidentally a genuine problem with the domestic phones and he knew this).

2. Rough and smooth. I think Jeremy essentially told the truth about this to police in the interview.  He must have got on with his father for them to work together, but I can also imagine his father being snappy and on edge with him and the photograph of Nevill I started a thread on, in which he looks to have been taken by surprise when out working, shooting or game keeping, or whatever, shows a man with concerns and worries etched on his face, which is sad when you consider how old he was. 

The photographs I have seen of June show her as uncomfortable, and I do not believe she was terribly close to Jeremy, but I think the relationship would have been amicable.  She probably channelled all her concerns about Jeremy through male figures in the family, including Nevill especially and also Robert Boutflour. 

Sheila and Jeremy were not very close either.  Jeremy may not have seen too much of the twins.   

When initially Jeremy told the police the relationships were good, this was seen as suspicious but it could equally be viewed innocently.  If we imagine an innocent man has just been told all his family are dead and it's murder-suicide by his sister, why does he need to go into careful nuances about his family relationships?  Of course, if he is guilty, that puts a different complexion on the matter.


You don't think the inheritance motive stands up to close scrutiny. You think Jeremy had more business nous than that. What exactly it "that"? Can you tell us what evidence you have that a 24 year old who'd never shown an aptitude for farming life, had spent more time traveling and working in wine bars and Little Chefs than working on the business which would provide for his future, would have 'nous'. Could you also give some indication of why, given his inexperience and hitherto disinclination to work there, you think his intention may have been to take the estate over for himself? However, had he intended to sell up and go down an entirely different route, his actions are entirely consistant with an inheritance killing. If it wasn't an inheritance killing, WHAT was it? Killing for fun?

I concur that it would be very hard to sit down and plan to kill two little boys -for us. A psychopath wouldn't be concerned, other than getting it right.



Perhaps you can provide names of anyone who said he and his father had a good working relationship. It would not surprise me in any way to know that Nevill was feeling harassed when that picture was taken. He certainly looks older than his years. He may still have been in his late 50's

June was known to be reticent. She didn't seek the lime light, so probably wouldn't have felt comfortable being photographed unless she had a prop.
 

Offline JackieD

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3879
Re: Reasons why Bamber cycled to & from WHF.
« Reply #214 on: August 25, 2020, 10:59:PM »
Warwick Hislop there you go
Easy
Julie Mugford the main prosecution witness was guilty of numerous crimes, 13 separate cheque frauds, robbery, and drug dealing and also making a deal with a national newspaper before trial that if she could convince a jury her ex boyfriend was guilty of five murders she would receive £25,000

guest29835

  • Guest
Re: Reasons why Bamber cycled to & from WHF.
« Reply #215 on: August 25, 2020, 11:01:PM »

You don't think the inheritance motive stands up to close scrutiny. You think Jeremy had more business nous than that. What exactly it "that"? Can you tell us what evidence you have that a 24 year old who'd never shown an aptitude for farming life, had spent more time traveling and working in wine bars and Little Chefs than working on the business which would provide for his future, would have 'nous'. Could you also give some indication of why, given his inexperience and hitherto disinclination to work there, you think his intention may have been to take the estate over for himself? However, had he intended to sell up and go down an entirely different route, his actions are entirely consistant with an inheritance killing. If it wasn't an inheritance killing, WHAT was it? Killing for fun?

I concur that it would be very hard to sit down and plan to kill two little boys -for us. A psychopath wouldn't be concerned, other than getting it right.



Perhaps you can provide names of anyone who said he and his father had a good working relationship. It would not surprise me in any way to know that Nevill was feeling harassed when that picture was taken. He certainly looks older than his years. He may still have been in his late 50's

June was known to be reticent. She didn't seek the lime light, so probably wouldn't have felt comfortable being photographed unless she had a prop.

If he was killing for fun, then he would be a psychopath.

I don't wish to answer your questions as I dislike engaging with you due to your attitude.  I've allowed enough by answering Steve's questions and I think I have provided a lot of information already for people to consider and perhaps form and develop their own ideas. 

guest29835

  • Guest
Re: Reasons why Bamber cycled to & from WHF.
« Reply #216 on: August 25, 2020, 11:02:PM »
Warwick Hislop there you go
Easy

I don't know who that is, sorry.

Offline JackieD

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3879
Re: Reasons why Bamber cycled to & from WHF.
« Reply #217 on: August 25, 2020, 11:51:PM »
I don't know who that is, sorry.

Warwick Hislop is someone I know well and he was a pilot who used to spray the fields. Completely impartial and knew Neville and Jeremy
Julie Mugford the main prosecution witness was guilty of numerous crimes, 13 separate cheque frauds, robbery, and drug dealing and also making a deal with a national newspaper before trial that if she could convince a jury her ex boyfriend was guilty of five murders she would receive £25,000

guest29835

  • Guest
Re: Reasons why Bamber cycled to & from WHF.
« Reply #218 on: August 25, 2020, 11:53:PM »
Warwick Hislop is someone I know well and he was a pilot who used to spray the fields. Completely impartial and knew Neville and Jeremy

What does he say about it all, then?

Offline JackieD

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3879
Re: Reasons why Bamber cycled to & from WHF.
« Reply #219 on: August 26, 2020, 12:00:AM »
What does he say about it all, then?

He was shocked about the murders and conviction and said he really liked Neville and said they had a normal father and son relationship


That’s all I know from someone who was working at the farm at the time
Julie Mugford the main prosecution witness was guilty of numerous crimes, 13 separate cheque frauds, robbery, and drug dealing and also making a deal with a national newspaper before trial that if she could convince a jury her ex boyfriend was guilty of five murders she would receive £25,000

Offline JackieD

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3879
Re: Reasons why Bamber cycled to & from WHF.
« Reply #220 on: August 26, 2020, 12:05:AM »
Matt Arnold who used to be a presenter on GMTV contacted me on twitter too.
He went to school and didn’t believe Jeremy could be responsible for the murders view of Jeremy

Another impartial
Julie Mugford the main prosecution witness was guilty of numerous crimes, 13 separate cheque frauds, robbery, and drug dealing and also making a deal with a national newspaper before trial that if she could convince a jury her ex boyfriend was guilty of five murders she would receive £25,000

Offline Jane

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 33773
Re: Reasons why Bamber cycled to & from WHF.
« Reply #221 on: August 26, 2020, 12:46:PM »
If he was killing for fun, then he would be a psychopath.

I don't wish to answer your questions as I dislike engaging with you due to your attitude.  I've allowed enough by answering Steve's questions and I think I have provided a lot of information already for people to consider and perhaps form and develop their own ideas.


How petulant. Whether or not you choose to answer is of no relevance. The questions are out there to be pondered.

guest29835

  • Guest
Re: Reasons why Bamber cycled to & from WHF.
« Reply #222 on: August 26, 2020, 01:07:PM »

How petulant.  Whether or not you choose to answer is of no relevance. The questions are out there to be pondered.

You replied to me, remember?  Your post directly questions me.  So I'm telling you that I would prefer not to engage in further discussion.  This is because I don't like your attitude. I don't believe that is petulant.  In fact, I have gone to great efforts to contribute some of my thinking to this thread. 

It's ironic that you should refer to petulance.  I have rarely encountered somebody more petulant than you.  A bit like Steve, you carry yourself with a superior attitude, and seem to think a lot of yourself and talk down to people.

To me, you come across as really patronising and ignorant.


Offline Jane

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 33773
Re: Reasons why Bamber cycled to & from WHF.
« Reply #223 on: August 26, 2020, 02:03:PM »
You replied to me, remember?  Your post directly questions me.  So I'm telling you that I would prefer not to engage in further discussion.  This is because I don't like your attitude. I don't believe that is petulant.  In fact, I have gone to great efforts to contribute some of my thinking to this thread. 

It's ironic that you should refer to petulance.  I have rarely encountered somebody more petulant than you.  A bit like Steve, you carry yourself with a superior attitude, and seem to think a lot of yourself and talk down to people.

To me, you come across as really patronising and ignorant.


How odd -No, actually it fits well- that you should feel questioned. Challenged, perhaps? I questioned the claims your post lays out, not who you see yourself as being. That you "prefer not to engage in further discussion" could quite easily be seen as being because you don't have the answers, which is entirely unconnected to you not liking my attitude. I accept that you've put "great effort" -and you have the temerity to accuse me of having "a superior attitude?!!!!- into contributing your thinking -so too did Chairman Mao- but how your thinking is accepted is out of you hands.

Thank-you for comparing me with Steve. He has very high standards which I entirely approve of. You flatter me with your label of superiority. I do indeed have a very high opinion of myself and my acheivements, all of which I've worked hard for. If you feel talked down to, it's your problem, not mine.

Offline JackieD

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3879
Re: Reasons why Bamber cycled to & from WHF.
« Reply #224 on: August 26, 2020, 02:18:PM »

How odd -No, actually it fits well- that you should feel questioned. Challenged, perhaps? I questioned the claims your post lays out, not who you see yourself as being. That you "prefer not to engage in further discussion" could quite easily be seen as being because you don't have the answers, which is entirely unconnected to you not liking my attitude. I accept that you've put "great effort" -and you have the temerity to accuse me of having "a superior attitude?!!!!- into contributing your thinking -so too did Chairman Mao- but how your thinking is accepted is out of you hands.

Thank-you for comparing me with Steve. He has very high standards which I entirely approve of. You flatter me with your label of superiority. I do indeed have a very high opinion of myself and my acheivements, all of which I've worked hard for. If you feel talked down to, it's your problem, not mine.


What achievements???
Jokes
You spend all your time jumping between forums making stuff up about JB without any proof or substance
Your moniker should be
I believe?
Or
I think
You know xxxx all about anything
The sad life spent on forums attacking anyone who questions JB ‘s conviction who already in prison on a full life tariff

The really funny thing is you don’t fool a single person because if you didn’t think there’s a chance JB’s conviction couldn’t be overturned you wouldn’t be on here
Julie Mugford the main prosecution witness was guilty of numerous crimes, 13 separate cheque frauds, robbery, and drug dealing and also making a deal with a national newspaper before trial that if she could convince a jury her ex boyfriend was guilty of five murders she would receive £25,000