Author Topic: Reasons why Bamber cycled to & from WHF.  (Read 15228 times)

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guest29835

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Re: Reasons why Bamber cycled to & from WHF.
« Reply #165 on: August 25, 2020, 05:01:PM »
I have not actually insulted you, whereas you now insult me - which speaks for itself.  Let it stand, because people need to see how you, Steve and Jane behave on here when your poor reasoning is cornered and exposed.

However, if you think I have contradicted myself, then by all means please highlight this.  You will be doing me a favour and I will either correct your misunderstanding or correct my own.  Thanks very much.

Ah, now I see what you think the contradiction is, Caroline.  Sorry I didn't pay much attention as it seemed to me you were ranting and raving like a.....well....like a psychopath.

It's not necessarily a contradiction, actually.

I think what I said in that opening post was that I think he is crazy.  I think he would have to be to have committed the crime, given all the background and taking everything into account.  That doesn't mean I think he suffers from a mental illness or a personality disorder.  Strictly speaking, you don't have to in order to be sectioned under the Mental Health Act - you just need to have a mental health problem that requires treatment, in this case in penal confinement. 

But even if it is a contradiction, so what?  I stand by what I now say, which reflects a closer examination and consideration of the facts.  The opening post was just my attempt to extend some humanity to Jeremy, assuming he is guilty.  I'm like that - a bit of a softie, really.  I recognise he is a human being.  I don't just pigeon-hole people as unfeeling psychopaths, or I am reluctant to.

Offline JackieD

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Re: Reasons why Bamber cycled to & from WHF.
« Reply #166 on: August 25, 2020, 05:16:PM »
You have contradicted yourself and you're a fool, a fake and pompous arse  and no, I won't be listening to you - end of! Why would anyone listen to you? You bogus idiot!


Pop of back to the red where you feel right at home with like minded people

I will repost my deleted posts later or in the morning
The truth hurts doesn’t I Caroline
Julie Mugford the main prosecution witness was guilty of numerous crimes, 13 separate cheque frauds, robbery, and drug dealing and also making a deal with a national newspaper before trial that if she could convince a jury her ex boyfriend was guilty of five murders she would receive £25,000

guest29835

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Re: Reasons why Bamber cycled to & from WHF.
« Reply #167 on: August 25, 2020, 05:18:PM »
Ah, now I see what you think the contradiction is, Caroline.  Sorry I didn't pay much attention as it seemed to me you were ranting and raving like a.....well....like a psychopath.

It's not necessarily a contradiction, actually.

I think what I said in that opening post was that I think he is crazy.  I think he would have to be to have committed the crime, given all the background and taking everything into account.  That doesn't mean I think he suffers from a mental illness or a personality disorder.  Strictly speaking, you don't have to in order to be sectioned under the Mental Health Act - you just need to have a mental health problem that requires treatment, in this case in penal confinement. 

But even if it is a contradiction, so what?  I stand by what I now say, which reflects a closer examination and consideration of the facts.  The opening post was just my attempt to extend some humanity to Jeremy, assuming he is guilty.  I'm like that - a bit of a softie, really.  I recognise he is a human being.  I don't just pigeon-hole people as unfeeling psychopaths, or I am reluctant to.

I'm half-expecting one of the dogmatic point-scoring guilters to come along and now say, 'Aha!  But you said he should have been hung!'

I may as well, for completeness, cover that as well while we're here, and preempt the people in the cheap seats.

Yes, I do think Jeremy should have been hanged - if he was guilty, after a fair trial under the presumption of innocence, and following a thorough review and appeal, and a consideration of his mental capacity (Is he crazy?  If so, in what sense?), and following a review of a plea for mercy to the relevant government minister.

But we don't have that system anymore.  Instead, we lock these people up for a very long time, and in Jeremy's case it seems we want to lock him up for the entirety of his natural life in a high security prison, in which his daily movements are severely restricted and he is in danger of violence from other prisoners. 

In my view, that is cruel.  My starting-point is that Jeremy is a human being and within him is the possibility of moral and civic transformation.  I allow that, if he is a guilty, his crimes were sensationally cruel and abominable and can never be forgiven, and his rehabilitation can never be complete, but the distinction I am proposing here is that if we opt to keep him alive, then we are, at least in principle, allowing the possibility of some degree of rehabilitation and his release back into the community on some sensible basis.

Offline JackieD

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Re: Reasons why Bamber cycled to & from WHF.
« Reply #168 on: August 25, 2020, 05:19:PM »
There's only an MRI scan that can pin-point the brain of a criminal. These are 100% when used on criminals because of the marked difference in the brain than that of a non-criminal.


Christ Lookout are you agreeing with QC on the above

I know you have been pushing the point for years
Julie Mugford the main prosecution witness was guilty of numerous crimes, 13 separate cheque frauds, robbery, and drug dealing and also making a deal with a national newspaper before trial that if she could convince a jury her ex boyfriend was guilty of five murders she would receive £25,000

guest29835

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Re: Reasons why Bamber cycled to & from WHF.
« Reply #169 on: August 25, 2020, 05:21:PM »

Pop of back to the red where you feel right at home with like minded people

I will repost my deleted posts later or in the morning
The truth hurts doesn’t I Caroline

I think they should be allowed to stay.

One by one, they are showing themselves up for what they are.

Offline JackieD

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Re: Reasons why Bamber cycled to & from WHF.
« Reply #170 on: August 25, 2020, 05:29:PM »
I think they should be allowed to stay.

One by one, they are showing themselves up for what they are.

I guess you are right, ok they can stay
Julie Mugford the main prosecution witness was guilty of numerous crimes, 13 separate cheque frauds, robbery, and drug dealing and also making a deal with a national newspaper before trial that if she could convince a jury her ex boyfriend was guilty of five murders she would receive £25,000

Offline ngb1066

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Re: Reasons why Bamber cycled to & from WHF.
« Reply #171 on: August 25, 2020, 05:39:PM »

Pop of back to the red where you feel right at home with like minded people

I will repost my deleted posts later or in the morning
The truth hurts doesn’t I Caroline

If posts are removed by a moderator they must not be reposted.


Offline JackieD

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Re: Reasons why Bamber cycled to & from WHF.
« Reply #172 on: August 25, 2020, 05:43:PM »
If posts are removed by a moderator they must not be reposted.


Why were they removed?
You have suffered yourself from comments made over on the red forum
It happened to me again last night
I asked you who removed the posts?
Julie Mugford the main prosecution witness was guilty of numerous crimes, 13 separate cheque frauds, robbery, and drug dealing and also making a deal with a national newspaper before trial that if she could convince a jury her ex boyfriend was guilty of five murders she would receive £25,000

Offline Caroline

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Re: Reasons why Bamber cycled to & from WHF.
« Reply #173 on: August 25, 2020, 05:43:PM »
I am not going to reply to the screeching and shouting above.  Instead, I will just address whoever else happens to come along and read this, in the hope that I am reaching somebody out there who is fair, humane and sane.  Even just sane would do at the moment.

Let me first, briefly, reiterate the important points, which are that:

(i). We do not know if Jeremy Bamber is a psychopath in the clinical sense.
(ii). We do know that there is no evidence to support the assertion that he is a psychopath.
(iii). We also know that just because somebody has committed mass murderer, it does not necessarily follow that the person is a psychopath (though I accept it is tempting to think of the perpetrator that way, for perfectly understandable reasons).

Caroline is seeking to relegate (i), (ii) and (iii) above to the status of opinion.  It is not an opinion, it is a fair and neutral assessment of what is currently known.  I am open to changing my mind just as soon as better evidence comes along. 

The way I see it is if Jeremy is a psychopath, then he is a psychopath; if he isn't a psychopath, then he isn't a psychopath.  I have no vested interest in it one way or the other.  One or the other may help the defence or the prosecution, and in point of fact Caroline may wish to consider that in some circumstances a diagnosis of a personality disorder can be a basis for a plea of diminished responsibility in murder cases.  But the point is, either way, whoever it helps, I am neutral and just seek fact, and when I find it, I just accept it as fact.

The poster above, Caroline, clearly has serious personal problems, but that is a matter for her.  For our purposes, we can observe that she has crossed the boundary of reason.  She thinks she can know that somebody is 100% guilty.  In her case, there is one exceptional heterodoxy, which is the silencer - a topic on which she is a bit more reasonable, but in light of her scepticism about that evidence, her 100% affirmations seem all the more mysterious.

For Caroline, Jeremy's guilt is an article of faith and she is not able to engage in reasoned discourse on this subject.  Remember what I said to Steve: that free speech and reasoned discourse depend on a culture of such.  In the present case, a reasonable conversation with Caroline on this subject isn't possible, because she isn't reasonable in the first place. 

Caroline is obstinate and stubborn.  She possesses no relevant knowledge of the field she pronounces on, nor any professional clinical credentials in psychology, psychiatry, neurology or some other relevant field.  We know this straight-away because of her slovenly language, using terms like 'categorised' and 'classified', which is not correct clinical terminology, and copying and pasting indicative lists from the web.  Typically for an amateur, she insists she knows things she can't know.  She knows Jeremy is a psychopath.  For sure.  She will not admit doubt or show humility.  She won't listen to the didactic advice I am giving her, she won't listen to facts or evidence or reasonable arguments, at all.

In short, she is immune to reason and when her shortcomings are highlighted, she responds with hysterical abuse and rhetoric based on her amateur knowledge of psychology.



https://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?q=personality+disorder+classification&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart
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guest29835

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Re: Reasons why Bamber cycled to & from WHF.
« Reply #174 on: August 25, 2020, 05:44:PM »
I guess you are right, ok they can stay

NG1066 thinks they should be given enough rope to hang themselves - and I can now see his point.  I've been taking a look at that so-called Red Forum, and they have two sticky threads in which they supposedly prove why Jeremy did it and not Sheila and set out falsehoods in the case.  There are some good points in those threads, but most of it is easily refuted and they get a lot of the evidence wrong. 

I recall Alice in Wonderland: "You're nothing but a pack of cards!", I think was the line, if I remember my Lewis Carroll. 

Offline JackieD

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Julie Mugford the main prosecution witness was guilty of numerous crimes, 13 separate cheque frauds, robbery, and drug dealing and also making a deal with a national newspaper before trial that if she could convince a jury her ex boyfriend was guilty of five murders she would receive £25,000

Offline Caroline

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Re: Reasons why Bamber cycled to & from WHF.
« Reply #176 on: August 25, 2020, 05:45:PM »
NG1066 thinks they should be given enough rope to hang themselves - and I can now see his point.  I've been taking a look at that so-called Red Forum, and they have two sticky threads in which they supposedly prove why Jeremy did it and not Sheila and set out falsehoods in the case.  There are some good points in those threads, but most of it is easily refuted and they get a lot of the evidence wrong. 

I recall Alice in Wonderland: "You're nothing but a pack of cards!", I think was the line, if I remember my Lewis Carroll.

Does he?
Few people have the imagination for reality

guest29835

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Re: Reasons why Bamber cycled to & from WHF.
« Reply #177 on: August 25, 2020, 05:48:PM »


https://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?q=personality+disorder+classification&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart

That links refers to the classification of personality disorders in the sense of setting out a taxonomy.  You don't appear to realise that clinical practitioners diagnose patients, they don't classify them like zoo animals.  And even if they do, they certainly don't 'classify' them after one visit.

You simply do not understand the subject on which you are pronouncing and you are coming across as stupid and making a fool of yourself.  You need to stop this - for your own good.  Ignore me if you wish, but if you continue spreading misinformation, we will challenge you. 

Offline Caroline

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Re: Reasons why Bamber cycled to & from WHF.
« Reply #178 on: August 25, 2020, 05:51:PM »
That links refers to the classification of personality disorders in the sense of setting out a taxonomy.  You don't appear to realise that clinical practitioners diagnose patients, they don't classify them like zoo animals.  And even if they do, they certainly don't 'classify' them after one visit.

You simply do not understand the subject on which you are pronouncing and you are coming across as stupid and making a fool of yourself.  You need to stop this - for your own good.  Ignore me if you wish, but if you continue spreading misinformation, we will challenge you.

Oh stop it!  ;D ;D ;D ;D
Few people have the imagination for reality

Offline lookout

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Re: Reasons why Bamber cycled to & from WHF.
« Reply #179 on: August 25, 2020, 05:54:PM »

Christ Lookout are you agreeing with QC on the above

I know you have been pushing the point for years






No Jackie, I was just making a point. JB is definitely not in need of one. You know my views on the case, I've always been 100% on the innocent side.