Author Topic: How Did Jeremy Move To And From The Farmhouse? Some Thoughts & Problems...  (Read 9154 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Jane

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 33776
It's not just that.  I know the area well - perhaps as well as Jeremy did.  It's not just him knowing the terrain, it's also what is there and whether he would have had the time and could have done it.  I accept that in theory he could have done it, but it would have been extremely risky, especially around Goldhanger; and it becomes difficult if he was under a strict time constraint, either due to Nevill ending up in the kitchen or because he planned out the phone calls in advance and created an additional rod for his own back in that sense.


At which point he'd have had to ad lib and wing it.

guest29835

  • Guest
Hence the stalling for time, phoning the furthest police station and not 999, laying it on thick outside with Bewes about his sisters use of guns and loaded guns ect.

What you and Caroline are suggesting, then, if I am understanding you right, is that Jeremy must have killed them maybe two or three hours before, allowing time for the phone calls and returning to Goldhanger and showering and changing, etc.  You think he then wanted to delay the police entering the farmhouse, otherwise it might be obvious that the five had not only just been shot.  By delaying, it ceases to matter, so one avenue of suspicion is allayed.

Personally I'm not sure it makes a lot of difference to how the bodies would have appeared.  I think we must also assume Jeremy would have made sure they were all dead before he left the scene, so no risk of survivors or a wish to delay for that reason.  If he had rung 999, he would still be ringing the furthest police station, and he has no control over what the police do or how they react.  Chris Bews requested firearms support promptly. 

In your scenario, wouldn't there be a fear running through Jeremy's mind that he could be caught out by the phone calls?  He would have that fear anyway, and did because he evidently delayed, but what if the police were able to somehow uncover call logs from the exchange and pinpoint calls?  It's unlikely Jeremy would have been aware of whether this was possible.

Offline Caroline

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 27076
It's not just that.  I know the area well - perhaps as well as Jeremy did.  It's not just him knowing the terrain, it's also what is there and whether he would have had the time and could have done it.  I accept that in theory he could have done it, but it would have been extremely risky, especially around Goldhanger; and it becomes difficult if he was under a strict time constraint, either due to Nevill ending up in the kitchen or because he planned out the phone calls in advance and created an additional rod for his own back in that sense.

But we don't know that he was under a strict time constraint. The point is (as far as I am concerned) he could certainly have done it, far less likely to been seen or heard than if he had used a bike or car.

So you're from the area then?
Few people have the imagination for reality

Offline Jane

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 33776
What you and Caroline are suggesting, then, if I am understanding you right, is that Jeremy must have killed them maybe two or three hours before, allowing time for the phone calls and returning to Goldhanger and showering and changing, etc.  You think he then wanted to delay the police entering the farmhouse, otherwise it might be obvious that the five had not only just been shot.  By delaying, it ceases to matter, so one avenue of suspicion is allayed.

Personally I'm not sure it makes a lot of difference to how the bodies would have appeared.  I think we must also assume Jeremy would have made sure they were all dead before he left the scene, so no risk of survivors or a wish to delay for that reason.  If he had rung 999, he would still be ringing the furthest police station, and he has no control over what the police do or how they react.  Chris Bews requested firearms support promptly. 

In your scenario, wouldn't there be a fear running through Jeremy's mind that he could be caught out by the phone calls?  He would have that fear anyway, and did because he evidently delayed, but what if the police were able to somehow uncover call logs from the exchange and pinpoint calls?  It's unlikely Jeremy would have been aware of whether this was possible.


You -and we- are looking back at it from here and now. We can see it and potential pitfalls that Jeremy wouldn't have until or unless he encountered them. You could say we're being fearful for him. He may have assumed more than he actually knew, and got lucky.

You're probably right in that it may not have made much difference to how the bodies would have appeared, but it's not about us, here and now. It's about how Jeremy was thinking about how the scene would look. I'm sure he'd have made certain they were all dead, but he may have thought Sheila was dead after the first shot, so he'd probably have checked more than once to be certain. I DO think, if only to give him breathing space, he'd have wanted to delay the police A) getting to the scene, B) finding the bodies.

Offline JackieD

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3879
But we don't know that he was under a strict time constraint. The point is (as far as I am concerned) he could certainly have done it, far less likely to been seen or heard than if he had used a bike or car.

So you're from the area then?

Ha ha didn’t know that did you
Julie Mugford the main prosecution witness was guilty of numerous crimes, 13 separate cheque frauds, robbery, and drug dealing and also making a deal with a national newspaper before trial that if she could convince a jury her ex boyfriend was guilty of five murders she would receive £25,000

guest7363

  • Guest
What you and Caroline are suggesting, then, if I am understanding you right, is that Jeremy must have killed them maybe two or three hours before, allowing time for the phone calls and returning to Goldhanger and showering and changing, etc.  You think he then wanted to delay the police entering the farmhouse, otherwise it might be obvious that the five had not only just been shot.  By delaying, it ceases to matter, so one avenue of suspicion is allayed.

Personally I'm not sure it makes a lot of difference to how the bodies would have appeared.  I think we must also assume Jeremy would have made sure they were all dead before he left the scene, so no risk of survivors or a wish to delay for that reason.  If he had rung 999, he would still be ringing the furthest police station, and he has no control over what the police do or how they react.  Chris Bews requested firearms support promptly. 

In your scenario, wouldn't there be a fear running through Jeremy's mind that he could be caught out by the phone calls?  He would have that fear anyway, and did because he evidently delayed, but what if the police were able to somehow uncover call logs from the exchange and pinpoint calls?  It's unlikely Jeremy would have been aware of whether this was possible.
Im not suggesting two to three hours, I’m suggesting it could have been longer than the 30 mins QC, I understand time is of the essence, but we don’t have precise timings, so we could add more time on?  By ringing 999, what if there was a car in the area 5 mins away who gets dispatched, they could have been breaking the door down in 10 mins and everyone was dead, not only dead but cold to touch?   I’m sorry I don’t have all the answers, I don’t think anyone ever will QC. 

guest29835

  • Guest
But we don't know that he was under a strict time constraint. The point is (as far as I am concerned) he could certainly have done it, far less likely to been seen or heard than if he had used a bike or car.

So you're from the area then?

That's one of the points I'm mulling over.  He didn't have all the time in the world, yet by the same token, he had a generous potential window of 2 or 3 hours.  Yet he also makes these phone calls.  If we say he's guilty, then the call from Nevill was fake.  Was that call completely invented by Jeremy or was a call actually made, but by Jeremy to himself? 

If the former, then I would assume you are right, and he had time to go to and back by foot, but that being the case, why has he made things more complicated for himself by inserting a 20/25 minute delay in his call to the police?  If the latter, if he placed a call to himself, then that suggests he wanted to ensure there would be no doubt about a call having been placed, which in turn does place him under time constraints and may also explain the gap in his story of 20/25 minutes or so - i.e. the gap is the result of these self-imposed constraints, rather than inadvertent self-sabotage. 

Otherwise, why does the gap exist at all? If Jeremy is making this call up out of thin air, then why doesn't he make a time up out of thin air and say that he got the call from Nevill at, let's say, 3.24 a.m., tried to call him back immediately, couldn't - can't remember why exactly or whether it was engaged, just knows he couldn't - so rang the police station straight-away at 3.26 a.m., or maybe rang Julie first, or whatever [insert varied times to suit]?  Why all the palaver, which seems to make his position more difficult?

Offline JackieD

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3879
QC the problem with some of your scenarios is I just don’t think he was bright enough to carry out all this planning

This is someone who didn’t do well in a privileged school, worked for daddy and mummy, worked at the little chef
Apparently told Julie he was responsible for the murders and then dumped her
Apparently put the silencer back in the cupboard and handed the keys to the relatives of WHF

Get yourself on his phone list and have a few conversations with him and let me know what you think

That ridiculous statement Jeremy made on the stand is exactly the sort of rubbish that comes out of his mouth
I know exactly what you will think
It’s no surprise that Jeremy hasn’t really been involved in any violence because that’s not how he was. You can tell what he was like the way he was with Julie when she was violent
Julie Mugford the main prosecution witness was guilty of numerous crimes, 13 separate cheque frauds, robbery, and drug dealing and also making a deal with a national newspaper before trial that if she could convince a jury her ex boyfriend was guilty of five murders she would receive £25,000

guest7363

  • Guest
Ha ha didn’t know that did you
Yep 😂😂😂

guest29835

  • Guest
QC the problem with some of your scenarios is I just don’t think he was bright enough to carry out all this planning

This is someone who didn’t do well in a privileged school, worked for daddy and mummy, worked at the little chef
Apparently told Julie he was responsible for the murders and then dumped her
Apparently put the silencer back in the cupboard and handed the keys to the relatives of WHF

Get yourself on his phone list and have a few conversations with him and let me know what you think

That ridiculous statement Jeremy made on the stand is exactly the sort of rubbish that comes out of his mouth
I know exactly what you will think
It’s no surprise that Jeremy hasn’t really been involved in any violence because that’s not how he was. You can tell what he was like the way he was with Julie when she was violent

He studied for a maths A-level, didn't he?  He may have failed it, but this means he was still bright enough to be allowed on a rigorous academic course and must have done respectably at O-level.  And this was back in the 1970s.  That means he was and is bright.  By today's standards, he'd probably be on a university course.

I know what you're trying to do: make me think he couldn't have been bright enough to do this.  Sort of like the comment about him not having the gumption.

I think he was bright enough.  I'm not saying he was a candidate for Mensa, but he was bright enough.  However, it is apparent, at least to me, that the whole thing is a bit far-fetched.  I mean, come on.  Leaving Bourtree Cottage without being seen?  Returning?  He only needs one person to see him and he's finished.  Can we at least ditch the idea that he was on a push bike?? 

And he's going there to kill his whole family, including two little boys?  He must have had more than two screws loose.  The whole thing is just so difficult to comprehend.  I understand what the judge meant when he said, "Evil, almost beyond belief".  That word "almost" is forgotten, but reflects the judge's incredulity at it all.  I wonder if in the recesses of his mind, maybe nearer, Maurice Drake had his own doubts?  I do not pretend I can understand it, but that in itself must surely be grounds for scepticism for any reasonable person.

Offline JackieD

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3879
Thank you QC Far fetched is the right word about someone without any history of violence and someone that didn’t want to go on shooting parties
Julie Mugford the main prosecution witness was guilty of numerous crimes, 13 separate cheque frauds, robbery, and drug dealing and also making a deal with a national newspaper before trial that if she could convince a jury her ex boyfriend was guilty of five murders she would receive £25,000

guest29835

  • Guest
Thank you QC Far fetched is the right word about someone without any history of violence and someone that didn’t want to go on shooting parties

Scenario 1:
Here we have a young woman with paranoid schizophrenia and a history of violence and threats of violence, who is estranged from her husband and works in dead-end jobs, dislikes her mentally-ill mother who adopted her and has disturbing psychotic delusions about her own twin sons.  She is disappointed by a meeting with her biological mother, who returns to Canada.  She is also a recreational drug user.  Her psychotropic dosage has been reduced drastically in the last month or two.  She is already in the house and has access to a rifle and a loaded magazine, with more ammunition nearby.  She argues with her father and she starts threatening to go upstairs with the rifle.  He cannot lay his hands on her and is also concerned to keep her downstairs and away from her mother and her own sons, so he tries to calm her down in the kitchen and also rings his son (her brother) while she is present.  When the son answers, she runs upstairs and starts shooting.  She kills her family, all at close range, including her sons, then turns the gun on herself.  She is duly found with the rifle on or by her body.  She is forensically clean, but it is believed she washed herself prior to suicide, as is fairly common.

Scenario 2:
Now we have a young man with no history of violence, who lives 2/3 miles away.  We say that he goes out in the middle of the night to the house, enters and leaves undetected and without leaving any blood traces.  He proceeds to kill his entire family, including two little boys in their beds, simply so he can have lots of money now and drink champagne and have meals at restaurants and go to St Tropez.  He may also buy a smallholding in Dorset - he hasn't decided yet, let's see what happens with probate.  He does this even though he already has a lot of money and a secure future with a large inheritance down the line.  He also tells his girlfriend what he is planning to do and then reveals to her what has happened after he does the deed, albeit obliquely in the form of a made-up story about a hitman - in effect, he is confessing to her.  She spills the beans to a friend, and this friend engages in horseplay with this mass murderer at her 21st. birthday party a few days later.  Like you do.  He'd planned it all out and even staged a few phone calls to put the police off the trail.  The police fall for it.  What can you do, eh?  Except for one detective, who drives a classic car and shares a passing resemblance to Inspector Morse. Anyway, our killer spends much of his inheritance before he receives it, splashing out like there's no tomorrow.  He also allows the relatives, whom he does not see eye-to-eye with, keys to the crime scene.  This, after the police had offered the keys to him, which would have allowed him to easily dispose of any further incriminating evidence missed by the police.  The relatives come forward with the evidence instead, which had been mysteriously overlooked by the police themselves.  These same relatives stand to gain if he is convicted and imprisoned.  He even dropped hints to one or two people of his murderous intentions beforehand, including a hostile uncle.

Honestly, which of these two scenarios is the more plausible? 

In my view, one of these scenarios is simple and straight-forward and makes sense, the other is far-fetched and quite incredible, and frankly sounds like the script for one of those B-movies that gets broadcast late at night on Channel 5, normally starring Shannon Tweed and that bloke whose name I always forget but he's always in films like that. 

Offline Adam

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 44394
Now we have a young man with no history of violence, who lives 2/3 miles away

But a history of crime against his family


We say that he goes out in the middle of the night to the house, enters and leaves undetected and without leaving any blood traces, kills his entire family, including two little boys in their beds, simply so he can have lots of money now and drink champagne and have meals at restaurants and go to St Tropez.  He may also buy a smallholding in Dorset -"[

Bamber did not bleed so could not leave blood traces. You are describing an inheritance killer


He does this even though he already has a lot of money and a secure future with a large inheritance down the line -

He was going to be disinherited and not prepared to wait 15-20 years anyway. So became an inheritance killer


He also tells his girlfriend what he is planing to do and then reveals to her what has happened after he does the deed, albeit obliquely in the form of a made-up story about a hitman - in effect, he is confessing to her -

Correct. As she put in her WS & testified


She spills the beans to a friend, and this friend engages in horseplay with the mass murderer at her 21st. birthday party a few days later -

She tells 5 people. Source required on date of birthday party


He spends much of his inheritance before he receives it, splashing out like there's no tomorrow -

He spent lavishly and needed to attempt to sell pictures of Sheila to tide him over


He also allows the relatives, whom he does not see eye-to-eye with, keys to the crime scene.  This, after the police had offered the keys to him, which would have allowed him to easily dispose of any further incriminating evidence missed by the police -

He thought there was no incriminating evidence.


The relatives come forward with the evidence instead, which had been mysteriously overlooked by the police themselves -

The police were not looking at WHF silencers


These same relatives stand to gain if he is convicted and imprisoned -

Do you believe the relatives fabricated the silencer with the aga paint and Sheila's blood?


He even dropped hints to one or two people of his murderous intentions beforehand, including a hostile uncle -

Correct. He also told Liz Rimington 'Only I know what really happened that night'
« Last Edit: August 20, 2020, 12:30:AM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

guest29835

  • Guest



Thanks Adam.  It's good you're here to put me right.  I really don't know what I would do without you.  Actually, I do know - I'd probably be sending letters to Jeremy.  Thankfully, you're here to keep me on the straight and narrow.

Thanks Adam.

Offline Adam

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 44394
Interestingly Julie did not mention Bamber having to go to bible classes with June. Probably because Julie would have been rolling around laughing.

This may have pushed him over the edge.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.