Author Topic: The Baffling Mystery Of The Blood In The Silencer  (Read 21523 times)

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Offline Roch

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Re: The Baffling Mystery Of The Blood In The Silencer
« Reply #135 on: July 25, 2020, 05:02:PM »
I think that's a bit ambitious.  Normally when the police are involved in miscarriages of justice, it's because they've been reckless, cut corners or lied about specific procedural issues.  I've yet to see a case where the police have acted malevolently to convict an ordinary person they believed innocent - but I must add one caveat.

The exception is that I have known circumstances where the police intentionally frame known criminals.  That's still inexcusable, but it's a little different.  It was a way of dealing with criminals and it used to happen a lot - hence the term, 'round up the usual suspects'.  It happens less so nowadays due to checks and controls in the system.

Jeremy was involved in drugs, and he'd burgled the caravan park, but to my understanding he was not known to the police on 7th. August 1985.  If they'd searched their records for a Jeremy Nevill Bamber, born in 1961, nothing would have come up.  He was clean. 

Besides, with this sort of crime, even if he was known to the authorities as the local rat bag, it's a bit of a stretch to believe they'd set him up for something like this.  Normally when the police frame known criminals, it's for things like armed robbery, maybe murders involving strangers, things like that.  They're looking for the 'likely suspect'.  This was a family shooting incident, a bit different.  If Jeremy became a suspect, I have to say it was for solid reasons.

Did Stan Jones specifically have a motive for framing Jeremy?  I don't believe so.

I see it this way:

If Jeremy is innocent, then Stan Jones and the others should have answered for it.  Police officers sometimes develop an idée fixe that can lead to the imprisonment of innocent people.  They get a bee in their bonnet about somebody.

If Jeremy is guilty, then it is still possible that Stan Jones, Ron Cook, other police officers and the relatives, went about recklessly cutting corners and committing perjury to convict a guilty man.

Guilty people can still be framed for crimes they DID commit.  It's still an injustice, because justice must be done and seen to be done and evidence must be good and sound.

Stan Jones told witnesses that no phone call occurred from Nevill to Jeremy, when in fact, it couldn't be proven either way. I think that is a wicked act. It painted Jeremy as a liar and therfore guilty, in the eyes of witnesses.  If you are a potential witness and a detective is telling you that Jeremy definitely made up that call, what would be the likely impact on your psyche regarding Jeremy and the case?

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Re: The Baffling Mystery Of The Blood In The Silencer
« Reply #136 on: July 25, 2020, 05:14:PM »
Stan Jones told witnesses that no phone call occurred from Nevill to Jeremy, when in fact, it couldn't be proven either way. I think that is a wicked act. It painted Jeremy as a liar and therfore guilty, in the eyes of witnesses.  If you are a potential witness and a detective is telling you that Jeremy definitely made up that call, what would be the likely impact on your psyche regarding Jeremy and the case?

Like I say, maybe he cut corners and acted unprofessionally?  I'm not sure I would characterise it as "wicked".  That's a strong term.  I think if he did what you allege, then it will be because he thought Jeremy was guilty and he believed Jeremy was otherwise going to get away with it.

Police officers are human at the end of the day.

Would you want a mass murderer to get away with it?  The killer of two boys?

I suppose it boils down to conducting an investigation professionally.  Major criminal investigations are more professional, bureaucratic, scientific and formal nowadays, with checks and balances.  You wouldn't have a Taff Jones or a Stan Jones going off at a tangent or engaged in a one-man mission like Inspector Morse, but in a Citroën Dyane.

When the Birmingham Six were brought in for questioning, the dramatic TV version shows it as innocent men being beaten-up, etc.  From one point-of-view, that's true, but from another point-of-view you could put yourself in the shoes of the West Midlands Serious Crime Squad and consider that they thought the men in front of them were IRA terrorists who had just ruthlessly and cold-bloodedly blown up 21 innocent people in a pub and injured (in some cases horribly maimed) scores more, and were now refusing to answer questions.

In those circumstances, picture yourself as a detective on that case.  Would you have any qualms about altering paperwork, verballing statements, and what not?  Maybe you would have such qualms, but maybe that's easy to say with hindsight.  Perhaps you can at least understand the mentality?

I suppose all it requires is one step over the line and then another step, then another, and before you know it, you're judge and jury and making up evidence.

Incidentally, this is one factor in why I doggedly maintain a neutral stance in this particular case.  I understand my own human weaknesses and flaws and I resist the temptation to leap into becoming either a mouthpiece for a probable mass murderer or a mouthpiece for the repressive authorities - I refuse to be either. 

Even if Jeremy is guilty, hasn't he served his time?  Is it fair or humane to keep somebody locked up for decades?  Of course, as Colin Caffell rightly reminds us, mass murder is inhumane, but I think somebody ought to tactfully remind Colin that Jeremy has served virtually all his productive life in prison.  That's punishment.  What more can Jeremy give?

Offline JackieD

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Re: The Baffling Mystery Of The Blood In The Silencer
« Reply #137 on: July 25, 2020, 05:19:PM »
Who was responsible for the years spent in prison by the Guildford Four?
Julie Mugford the main prosecution witness was guilty of numerous crimes, 13 separate cheque frauds, robbery, and drug dealing and also making a deal with a national newspaper before trial that if she could convince a jury her ex boyfriend was guilty of five murders she would receive £25,000

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Re: The Baffling Mystery Of The Blood In The Silencer
« Reply #138 on: July 25, 2020, 05:24:PM »
Who was responsible for the years spent in prison by the Guildford Four?

Did the police know they were innocent when they investigated them?

If they did, what do you think motivated the police to pursue them anyway?  Why bother? 

Were some of the Guildford Four and Maguire Seven factually guilty, despite the miscarriage of justice?

Normally, the truth is that the people convicted are likely to be factually guilty, but the conviction is unsafe because the police have not gone about things in the right way, or the evidence is flawed in some way, or the evidence does not withstand new methods and techniques.

Offline JackieD

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Re: The Baffling Mystery Of The Blood In The Silencer
« Reply #139 on: July 25, 2020, 06:19:PM »


This is a fairly recent case from Essex Police

This is how they roll

Has nothing and will nothing change

Why were the missing negatives destroyed


Essex Police officers found guilty after their 'lies and laziness' sabotaged child abuse investigation

Rogue police officers of Detective Constables Lee Pollard (left) and Sharon Patterson who have been found guilty of sabotaging child abuse investigations

Two rogue police officers have been found guilty of sabotaging child abuse investigations.

Detective constables Sharon Patterson, 49, and Lee Pollard, 47, forged documents, concealed evidence and lied about investigations out of "laziness" and "cynical disdain" for victims, the Old Bailey heard.
Patterson was even accused of ditching work to get a manicure and have a four-hour-long lunch at a Chinese restaurant with her married lover Pollard.
When she forged a document to shut down one investigation, Pollard described her as his "deceptive partner in crime" in flirtatious emails, jurors heard.

The pair denied wrong-doing, citing administrative chaos at the child abuse unit in north Essex where they both worked.
But prosecutor Alexandra Healy QC said their behaviour went "beyond incompetence" and could not be put down to insufficient manpower or resources.
The couple, who live together in Colchester, Essex, denied misconduct in a public office each between 2011 and 2014.

Alleged sex offender caught by a 'paedophile hunter' released on bail
Patterson was found guilty of one charge and cleared of a second while Pollard was convicted of two charges of misconduct.
Julie Mugford the main prosecution witness was guilty of numerous crimes, 13 separate cheque frauds, robbery, and drug dealing and also making a deal with a national newspaper before trial that if she could convince a jury her ex boyfriend was guilty of five murders she would receive £25,000

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Re: The Baffling Mystery Of The Blood In The Silencer
« Reply #140 on: July 25, 2020, 06:28:PM »
Can anybody produce an example of an ordinary innocent person being convicted of a serious crime due to police malevolence?  The main criterion is that the police know or assume the individual is factually innocent, but press ahead and prosecute anyway, even falsifying evidence in the process.

Before you say Jeremy Bamber, that's an allegation at this point.  I'm talking about a situation where this sort of police misconduct has been proved.

Offline Roch

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Re: The Baffling Mystery Of The Blood In The Silencer
« Reply #141 on: July 25, 2020, 07:15:PM »
Can anybody produce an example of an ordinary innocent person being convicted of a serious crime due to police malevolence?  The main criterion is that the police know or assume the individual is factually innocent, but press ahead and prosecute anyway, even falsifying evidence in the process.

Before you say Jeremy Bamber, that's an allegation at this point.  I'm talking about a situation where this sort of police misconduct has been proved.

Thomas Mair.

Offline Adam

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Re: The Baffling Mystery Of The Blood In The Silencer
« Reply #142 on: July 25, 2020, 07:21:PM »
An innocent Bamber will be a first -

The police fabricate a mountain of forensic evidence.

The relatives help frame a man although they didn't even commit the crime.

A mountain of circumstantial evidence puts unlucky Bamber in the frame as the only alive suspect.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

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Re: The Baffling Mystery Of The Blood In The Silencer
« Reply #143 on: July 25, 2020, 07:23:PM »
Thomas Mair.

That's just what you think.  It's not proved.  The evidence against Thomas Mair was strong, he was convicted and he has never protested his innocence. 

I mean where there has been a legal finding that the police intentionally set up an innocent person, or where there was a finding that the police made a mistake but the facts are highly suggestive of police malevolence during the original investigation.

Can you give even just one example?

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Re: The Baffling Mystery Of The Blood In The Silencer
« Reply #144 on: July 25, 2020, 07:25:PM »
An innocent Bamber will be a first -

The police fabricate a mountain of forensic evidence.

The relatives help frame a man although they didn't even commit the crime.

A mountain of circumstantial evidence puts unlucky Bamber in the frame as the only alive suspect.

I have to agree with you, Adam.

Actually, I think even you would have to acknowledge that there is a possibility that Jeremy is innocent - we can each take our own view on the extent of that possibility.  You probably think it is only slight and you also think that the issues with the evidence do not rise to reasonable doubt.  I, too, think the chance of him being innocent is quite slim, but I do think there is reasonable doubt and the conviction is legally unsafe.

Offline Adam

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Re: The Baffling Mystery Of The Blood In The Silencer
« Reply #145 on: July 25, 2020, 07:30:PM »
I have to agree with you, Adam.

Actually, I think even you would have to acknowledge that there is a possibility that Jeremy is innocent - we can each take our own view on the extent of that possibility.  You probably think it is only slight and you also think that the issues with the evidence do not rise to reasonable doubt.  I, too, think the chance of him being innocent is quite slim, but I do think there is reasonable doubt and the conviction is legally unsafe.

Forgot to mention - a former girlfriend says he spoke about the massacre before and afterwards.

With 70 pieces of forensic evidence, EP would have had to set up a framing department & brought in experts.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

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Re: The Baffling Mystery Of The Blood In The Silencer
« Reply #146 on: July 25, 2020, 07:38:PM »
Forgot to mention - a former girlfriend says he spoke about the massacre before and afterwards.

With 70 pieces of forensic evidence, EP would have had to set up a framing department & brought in experts.

Well to be fair, it would only have required a handful of people.  It's the 'rubbish in, rubbish out' principle.

Offline Roch

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Re: The Baffling Mystery Of The Blood In The Silencer
« Reply #147 on: July 25, 2020, 07:43:PM »
That's just what you think.  It's not proved.  The evidence against Thomas Mair was strong, he was convicted and he has never protested his innocence. 

I mean where there has been a legal finding that the police intentionally set up an innocent person, or where there was a finding that the police made a mistake but the facts are highly suggestive of police malevolence during the original investigation.

Can you give even just one example?

I have. Thomas Mair. I'm afraid I am far less trusting of our state and its institutions. The evidence and his 'trial' were a sham. 

Offline Adam

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Re: The Baffling Mystery Of The Blood In The Silencer
« Reply #148 on: July 25, 2020, 07:53:PM »
Sources in capitals.

Disputed/Not disputed is referring to the CT -


1.

Perfectly clean palm of hands on Sheila - Not disputed - COA


2.

One blood mark on back of hand of Sheila - Not disputed - COA


3.

Extremley low levels of lead found on hands on Sheila.  Not consistent with handling a rifle. Significantly higher traces expected - Not disputed - COA, BAMBER'S DEFENCE.


4.

Well manicured nails on Sheila - Not disputed - COA.


5.

No broken nails - Not disputed COA.


6.

Nails in tact - Not disputed - COA.


7.

No marks or indentations on Sheila's fingers - Not disputed - COA.


8.

No blood on finger tips - Not disputed - COA.


9.

No dirt on finger tips - Not disputed - COA.


10.

No powder on finger tips - Not disputed - COA.


11.

Sheila's time limits - Not disputed - POLICE, BAMBER, JUDGE.


12.

No trace of any lead dust coating on Sheila - Not disputed - COA.


13.

No traces of the lubricant from re loading twice - Not disputed - COA


14.

Very clean feet - Disputed with one picture of foot with redness - COA.


15.

Feet free from significant blood staining - Disputed with one picture of foot with redness - COA.


16.

Bamber doing nothing between 3.10am - 3.26/36am - Not disputed - COA, BAMBER.


17.

No debris such as sugar on feet - Not disputed - COA.


18.

No foot injuries after bare footed aggressive movement around big house & brutal fight - Not disputed - PHOTOGRAPHS, PATHOLOGIST, COA.


19.

Only Sheila Caffell's blood on nightdress - Not disputed - COA.


20.

No presence of firearm residue on nightdress - Not disputed - COA.


21.

No trace of rifle oil on nightdress - Not disputed - COA.


22.

No mention of nightdress damage from agressive movement and brutal kitchen fight - Not disputed - COA.


23.

No facial injuries on Sheila - Not disputed - PHOTOGRAPHS, PATHOLOGIST, COA.


24.

Sheila avoiding kitchen fight injuries with no body or face protection - Not disputed - COA.


25.

Nevill's massive height/weight advantage over Sheila - Not disputed - COA.


26.

Impossibility of shower removing evidence off Sheila - Not disputed - COA.


27.

Impossibility of Sheila showering after killing herself - Not disputed - SCIENTIFIC FACT.


28.

Nevill being found bare footed in pyjamas suggesting had just got out of bed - Not disputed - COA.


29.

Sheila being found bare footed in pyjamas suggesting she had just got out of bed - Not disputed - COA.


30.

Paint in silencer - Not disputed but suggestion from Bamber cousins did this - COA.


31.

Aga scratch's - Not disputed but suggestion from Bamber cousins did this - COA.


32.

Sheila's blood in silencer - Not disputed but suggestion from Bamber cousins did this - COA.


33.

No blood in the rifle end - Not disputed - COA.


34.

Sheila's legs pulled after second shot - Not disputed - COA.


35.

Blood underneath the bible - Not disputed - COA.


36.

A lot of blood on Nevill's side of the bed - Not disputed - COA.


37.

Large scale multiple mental & physical effects of Haloperidol - Not disputed. - INTERNET ARTICLES, YOUTUBE, COA.


38.

Sheila having Haloperidol in her body - Not disputed - COA.


39.

Sheila's condition hours before the massacre - Not disputed. Bamber being a main witness - BAMBER & OTHER PEOPLE, COA.


40.

Sheila under sedation - Not disputed - COA.


41.

Easy window entrance into WHF - Not disputed. Agreed by Bamber. - BAMBER, COA.


42.

Shutting kitchen window from outside - Disputed in 2017 but 20 independent sources prove otherwise - COA.


43.

No better massacre weapon options for Bamber - Not disputed - FORUM.


44.

Professor Herbert Leon Mcdonell - Not disputed after Bamber hired him - WILKES'S BOOK.


45.

Easy bike routes to WHF - Not disputed - COA.


46.

Bike brought to Bamber's cottage just before the massacre - Not disputed - BAMBERS POLICE INTERVIEWS, COA.


47.

June not waking or getting woken by Nevill - Not disputed - COA.


48.

Nevill's back burns - Not disputed. Suggestion burns were caused minus silencer rejected - BAMBER, TONIGHT PROGRAMME, COA.


49.

2012 CCRC court judgement - judicial review request made & rejected - JUDICIAL REVIEW DOCUMENT.


50.

The twins not waking - Not disputed - COA.


51.

Bamber's call to the police - Not disputed - COA.


52.

Nevill's horrific injuries - Not disputed - COA.


53.

Sheila's time limits - Not disputed - POLICE STATEMENTS.


54.

No valid Sheila scenario - Not disputed - OS & FORUM.


55.

Bamber's 3am call to Julie - Not disputed - COA.


56.

Nevill's 2/4 second call to Bamber - Not disputed - BAMBER, COA.


57.

Bamber asking the police to pick him up - Not disputed - WILKES, CRIMES, HEARTS & CORONETS.


58.

Nevill's back burns - Not disputed - COA.


59.

Ease for a man to lift & carry a woman - Not disputed. YOUTUBE VIDEO.


60.

Crime scenes of 5 individuals - Not disputed - COA.


61.

Bamber's found hacksaw - Not disputed - COA.


62.

Bible on Sheila's arm- Not disputed - PHOTOGRAPHS.


63.

Only execution period available to Bamber, 12am - 3am - Not disputed - BAMBER


64.

Housekeeper evidence of items around the kitchen sink being moved on massacre night - Not disputed- PB WS, WILKES'S BOOK


65.

Only Sheila receiving a contact shot in a location that produces back splatter- Not disputed, COA.


66.

Bloodied plam print on Sheila's nightdress - Not disputed. COA.


67.

Nevill being lifted onto a coal scuttle - Not disputed. CRIME SCENE PICTURES, COA.


68.

Dried blood on Sheila - Not Disputed. PATHOLOGIST.


69.

Sheila having to load prior to first shots - Not disputed. COA


70.

Blood in silencer being Sheila's with remote possibility of being a mixture of June and Nevill's. Meaning the silencer was used. Not disputed. COA.


71:

Nevill having the oppportunity to restrain Sheila while fully fit prior to her firing shots. Not disputed. AGREED BY ALL PARTIES.

----------

Depends when this evidence was needed. Prior to trial, they had several months to create. Prior to a DPP referral they would have had to work 24/7.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2020, 07:54:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline David1819

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Re: The Baffling Mystery Of The Blood In The Silencer
« Reply #149 on: July 25, 2020, 08:25:PM »
Thanks.

You are the first person to answer the points. Obviously there is no chance of Lookout, JackieD & Mike answering. David agrees it is impossible and has come up with a ridiculous theory about diluted period blood in a bucket of water while Gringo just gets abusive.

I don't agree with most of your points and some of them need sources. You will be the first to admit you are being very optimistic. Maybe give the benefit of the doubt for one point, but not 24.

No, I do not.