Author Topic: The Baffling Mystery Of The Blood In The Silencer  (Read 21531 times)

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Offline gringo

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Re: The Baffling Mystery Of The Blood In The Silencer
« Reply #120 on: July 24, 2020, 05:02:PM »
No they didn't. If they did know then they would have thought it nesissary to put blood from Nicholas inside the moderator also.
   Fair point.
    Adam's lists are so idiotic that they unworthy even of debunking.
    Point one of his latest list was "the relatives would have to have the idea". If the notion of having the idea makes your list of reasons to show that one or more of the relatives could not have fabricated evidence then you have set the bar way too low. The reasons go downhill from there and consist mostly of assumptions and stuff that Adam just makes up with zero reasoning.
     

Offline Adam

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Re: The Baffling Mystery Of The Blood In The Silencer
« Reply #121 on: July 24, 2020, 05:09:PM »
The relatives would need to -


Have the idea.

Agree with each other to attempt this. Knowing the consequences if caught.

Know if successful, it still may not convict Bamber if there is strong evidence incriminating Sheila.

Know Sheila had received contact shots.

Know whether the other deceased people received contact shots.

Know where each person's contact shots were. Some areas are more likely to provide back splatter.

Know there was no blood on the rifle barrel.

Know Sheila could not shoot herself with the silencer attached.

Know about back splatter.

Know how to insert back splatter.

Know Sheila's blood group.

Know the blood group of the other deceased people.

Know whether any of themselves had the same blood group as Sheila.

Know there was no other evidence which incriminated Sheila.

Know the crime scene photographs did not show the aga.

Know whether the silencers had already been looked at by police.

Act quickly & submit the silencer straight away. Time was not on their side.

Accept they may be wrong & Sheila may be guilty. Meaning they are framing an innocent man.

Not retract a word of their statements.

----------

Obviously impossible for the relatives to do all this.

Gringo needs to go through each point & say why the relatives would not need to do them.

Or if he agrees they did need to do each point, say how they would.

I hoped QCChevalier would answer. But he seems to have left the forum.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2020, 05:11:PM by Adam »
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Offline Adam

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Re: The Baffling Mystery Of The Blood In The Silencer
« Reply #122 on: July 24, 2020, 05:16:PM »
Perhaps Bamber used the silencer to commit the massacre. Then put it away.

The relatives looking & finding it shortly afterwards. With blood and paint on.

A crazy theory to some.

« Last Edit: July 24, 2020, 05:18:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

guest29835

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Re: The Baffling Mystery Of The Blood In The Silencer
« Reply #123 on: July 24, 2020, 05:16:PM »
I hoped QCChevalier would answer. But he seems to have left the forum.

Actually, I will answer you Adam.  I like your posting style.  Maybe give me a day or so, as I'm up to my eyeballs now in work.

I should just make it clear that it is NOT my view that the silencer was intentionally contaminated.

However, I am willing to answer your points from the viewpoint of Jeremy's side, so bear with me.

Offline Adam

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Re: The Baffling Mystery Of The Blood In The Silencer
« Reply #124 on: July 24, 2020, 05:20:PM »
Actually, I will answer you Adam.  I like your posting style.  Maybe give me a day or so, as I'm up to my eyeballs now in work.

I should just make it clear that it is NOT my view that the silencer was intentionally contaminated.

However, I am willing to answer your points from the viewpoint of Jeremy's side, so bear with me.

Yes impossible for the relatives to successfully contaminate the silencer.

But not sure how the silencer could be accidentially contaminated.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2020, 05:21:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

guest29835

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Re: The Baffling Mystery Of The Blood In The Silencer
« Reply #125 on: July 25, 2020, 06:34:AM »
   Fair point.
    Adam's lists are so idiotic that they unworthy even of debunking.
    Point one of his latest list was "the relatives would have to have the idea". If the notion of having the idea makes your list of reasons to show that one or more of the relatives could not have fabricated evidence then you have set the bar way too low. The reasons go downhill from there and consist mostly of assumptions and stuff that Adam just makes up with zero reasoning.
   

They could have used Adam's lists for torture purposes during the War.


“I’ve been imprisoned by you jerries before.  All perfectly civilised, eh wot.  Bit of cricket in the evenings, a few suet puddings, and then it’s hey-ho, and packed off back to Blighty.”

“Zat was ze ordinary German Army.  Vee are ze Gestapo.  A whole different cup of tea, as you Britishers like to say”

“Ha-ha.  It’s all the same.  Throw your worst at me jerry!”

“You may come to regret your imperious public school arrogance, Britisher.  Vee have vays of making you talk.  For instance, I have here Adam’s 55 Reasons Churchill Is Absolutely Right And Hitler Is Wrong.  Shall I read it?”

“Yoooouuu ba-stards”

“Zat’s not all.  Here ve have Adam’s 86 Pieces Of Evidence That Hitler Only Has One Ball.  Perhaps you’d like to hear zee audio version?  Oh yes, vee have that too.”

“No, no, nooooooo…..Not that.  What is it you want to know…?”

guest29835

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Re: The Baffling Mystery Of The Blood In The Silencer
« Reply #126 on: July 25, 2020, 07:33:AM »
If we assume the relatives decided to intentionally contaminate the silencer, then this is my response.  To be clear, I don't believe there is evidence currently to support the view that they did, but I will outline my thinking on Adam's points anyway.

The relatives would need to do the following things. I have added a few things -


Have the idea.

The first thing is that they need a motive.  I've dealt with this already further up the thread.  I've covered the possibility of a 'vital interest' motive and explained what further research I believe is necessary to establish it.  I've also touched on the possibility of a psychological motive on the part of David Boutflour.

In addition, we need to consider the type of people we're dealing with.  Again, I've covered this further up the thread.  These are 'gun types', but they will be lacking in sophisticated ballistical knowledge.  This means they will have enough knowledge to appreciate what needs to be done and they will approach the matter logically, but they may slip up in that they lack the fuller knowledge of the illogical ins and outs that a forensic ballistic expert would be more aware of.

Agree with each other to attempt this. Knowing the consequences if caught.

One person found the silencer, so in principle, it would require no more than one person.  Let's err on the side of caution and say there were two people involved: David Boutflour and Robert Boutflour.  Let's say they decide on the plan after David finds the silencer (on the search of the house with Ann and Peter).  Let's say they decide not to reveal their plan to Ann Eaton because she's a woman and they think she will not hold up under scrutiny.  They also decide not to tell Peter Eaton because they think that he may then blow the gaff by telling Ann.  They also agree that on no account should the scheme be disclosed to Karen Boutflour or Pam Boutflour. 

[One problem with my idea here is that, if I understand correctly, they take the silencer back to Ann's house, so it needs more thought - but take this as my 'starter for 10'].

Agree with each other to attempt this knowing how much work will be needed & how much they need to find out.

This is a good point, actually.  The problem is this: the two of them will know about guns, but they're not ballistic experts and they may need to find out more about the finer points.  How do they do this without raising suspicions?  There again, maybe this explains the close interest of Robert Boutflour and some of the other relatives in the police investigation and maybe David and Robert were encouraging Ann in this interest or allowing her to pursue her interest, for this reason? 

David and Robert will also make the fair assumption that the police are not keeping tabs on them or tapping their phones, etc., so there is no risk to them in communicating with each other as there would be if they were potential criminal suspects or key witnesses.

Know if successful, it still may not convict Bamber if there is strong evidence incriminating Sheila.

Again, a good point, but this is a calculation they would have to make.  The same observation could be made about any piece of evidence.

I suppose what Adam is really getting at here is that there would be a high risk that Jeremy would intuit that the relatives are trying to trap him and set him up, and if we assume a vital interest motive, then a reasoned calculation would have to be made: should the relatives go ahead and trap Jeremy criminally or should they try to reason with him from a business point-of-view and do a deal?

If they were being really crafty, the relatives may have been trying to synthesise those two lines of thought - i.e. set Jeremy up as a means to gain a negotiating advantage on him.  'Do a deal with us over the land and we'll tell the police we agree it was Sheila'. 

I'm not saying I think that happened, but I just float the idea.

Know Sheila had received contact shots.

Again, good point - but they will have known this, or had the ability to find out.

Know whether the other deceased people received contact shots.

Good point again - but bear in mind that the order of the assault on the victims was not known, and furthermore, the relatives may not really have cared about this, or they may not have even thought of it.  Remember that we are assuming they are 'gun people', but naive in forensic ballistics.

Also, blowback is not the only type of backspatter.  Backspatter can result from non-contact shots and matter from backspatter can get into the end of a gun even if the shooter is some distance from the target. 

Know where each person's contact shots were. Some areas are more likely to provide back splatter.

Again, perfectly fair point, but my response is the same as above.  They simply may not have cared or given this much thought.  They may have had the simple notion in their heads that you put blood in the silencer and that's enough.  Why not?

Know there was no blood on the rifle barrel.

I've covered this point already in my original post that started the thread.  The fact that Fletcher's testing showed no blood in the barrel could be seen as neutral.  You could just as easily argue that a lack of blood in the barrel raises the question of how there could have been backspatter in the silencer.  It does, however, depend on 'blood behaviour', and specifically whether backspatter blood can drip.

Know Sheila could not shoot herself with the silencer attached.

But they suspected Sheila was not responsible for other reasons, therefore this point of yours - while valid - would not have occurred to them and a conspiracy would not have hinged on it. 

Know a silencer was not found next to Sheila.

Their own police statements confirm they knew this at the time.  As gun people they knew that the rifle would normally have a silencer and telescopic sight attached.

Know about back splatter.

They wouldn't necessarily know about this in the scientific sense, but they would probably be aware of it as an empirical phenomenon.  They would just need to have dismantled a silencer or cleaned a gun.

Know how to insert back splatter.

They wouldn't know, that's the whole point.  It's why some people think intentional contamination is a possibility.

Know Sheila's blood group.

Why wouldn't they know Sheila's blood group?  Is that so far-fetched?  They would probably have learned this, either in the past, or during contact with the police during the investigation itself. Anyway, it needn't have been Sheila's blood.  As you know, blood could not be linked to a specific individual at that time.  Therefore, the same blood group was enough, and they may have been made aware of the family's blood groups during the inquiry, or at some point in the past for unrelated reasons.  If they were aware of this, then it's likely that any human blood would do, due to the range of blood groups in the family.  It need not have been Sheila's.

Know the blood group of the other deceased people.

Answered above.

Know whether any of themselves had the same blood group as Sheila.

Answered above.  I will assume they knew their own blood groups, but I appreciate what you are getting at: especially back then, it wasn't a given.  Interestingly, there's also an element of subjectivity in grouping blood, especially forensically, which I assume also applies medically.

Know there was no other evidence which incriminated Sheila.

Doesn't matter.  They already believed this at the time.  It's confirmed in their own evidence.

Know the crime scene photographs did not show the aga.

They are not criminalists, forensic photographers or crime scene experts.  They would not necessarily have thought about that.  Ironically, sometimes a lack of knowledge and forethought can be an advantage in life.  People with lots of knowledge about a subject hesitate, while people with little or no knowledge but bags of confidence may jump in and get it done.

Know there was a kitchen fight where the rifle was used.

They did know.

Know whether the silencers had already been looked at by police.

They did know.  That's the whole point.

Believe the police will bother to do something once they receive the silencer.

They had to.  It's their duty.  It's evidence.

Act quickly & submit the silencer straight away. Time was not on their side.

Well they didn't.  They delayed.  The police only collected the silencer after Robert Boutflour went up to Witham Police Station to ask what the hell was going on and it was realised there had been a misunderstanding.  Stan Jones was then sent to collect.  Or, at least, that's the relatives' story.

Accept they may be wrong & Sheila may be guilty. Meaning they are attempting to frame an innocent man.

Well Sheila was guilty of nothing, since she was dead.  The dead are beyond the reach of the criminal courts and can't be convicted - or at least in England & Wales that is the case. 

But taking up the thrust of your point, you too may be wrong, Adam.  You may be blaming a living and breathing innocent man for a mass murder; but, I assume you could not and would not do that intentionally.  You must genuinely believe Jeremy to be guilty. 

Anybody could be wrong.

I think the family would only have done this if they sincerely believed he did it. 

Accept a free Bamber may attempt revenge if he finds out the relatives turned on him.

This point has occurred to me as well, but I cover it above.  At the end of the day, it boils down to the relatives making a considered calculation.

Not retract a word of their statements.

A good point and I've covered this already: I think the conspiracy would have been limited to just David and Robert and they would have concealed what they were doing from the others.  The others may guess or wonder, but may not ask.  That sort of thing does happen in families.

Offline David1819

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Re: The Baffling Mystery Of The Blood In The Silencer
« Reply #127 on: July 25, 2020, 10:26:AM »
If we assume the relatives decided to intentionally contaminate the silencer, then this is my response.  To be clear, I don't believe there is evidence currently to support the view that they did, but I will outline my thinking on Adam's points anyway.

The first thing is that they need a motive.  I've dealt with this already further up the thread.  I've covered the possibility of a 'vital interest' motive and explained what further research I believe is necessary to establish it.  I've also touched on the possibility of a psychological motive on the part of David Boutflour.

In addition, we need to consider the type of people we're dealing with.  Again, I've covered this further up the thread.  These are 'gun types', but they will be lacking in sophisticated ballistical knowledge.  This means they will have enough knowledge to appreciate what needs to be done and they will approach the matter logically, but they may slip up in that they lack the fuller knowledge of the illogical ins and outs that a forensic ballistic expert would be more aware of.

One person found the silencer, so in principle, it would require no more than one person.  Let's err on the side of caution and say there were two people involved: David Boutflour and Robert Boutflour.  Let's say they decide on the plan after David finds the silencer (on the search of the house with Ann and Peter).  Let's say they decide not to reveal their plan to Ann Eaton because she's a woman and they think she will not hold up under scrutiny.  They also decide not to tell Peter Eaton because they think that he may then blow the gaff by telling Ann.  They also agree that on no account should the scheme be disclosed to Karen Boutflour or Pam Boutflour. 

[One problem with my idea here is that, if I understand correctly, they then take the silencer back to Ann's house, so it needs more thought - but take this as my 'starter for 10'].

This is a good point, actually.  The problem is this: the two of them will know about guns, but they're not ballistic experts and they may need to find out more about the finer points.  How do they do this without raising suspicions?  There again, maybe this explains the close interest of Robert Boutflour and some of the other relatives in the police investigation and maybe David and Robert were encouraging Ann in this interest or allowing her to pursue her interest, for this reason? 

David and Robert will also make the fair assumption that the police are not keeping tabs on them or tapping their phones, etc., so there is no risk to them in communicating with each other as there would be if they were potential criminal suspects or key witnesses.

Again, a good point, but this is a calculation they would have to make.  The same observation could be made about any piece of evidence.

I suppose what Adam is really getting at here is that there would be a high risk that Jeremy would intuit that the relatives are trying to trap him and set him up, and if we assume a vital interest motive, then a reasoned calculation would have to be made: should the relatives go ahead and trap Jeremy criminally or should they try to reason with him from a business point-of-view and do a deal?

If they were being really crafty, the relatives may have been trying to synthesise those two lines of thought - i.e. set Jeremy up as a means to gain a negotiating advantage on him.  'Do a deal with us over the land and we'll tell the police we agree it was Sheila'. 

I'm not saying I think that happened, but I just float the idea.

Again, good point - but they will have known this, or had the ability to find out.

Good point again - but bear in mind that the order of the assault on the victims was not known, and furthermore, the relatives may not really have cared about this, or they may not have even thought of it.  Remember that we are assuming they are 'gun people', but naive in forensic ballistics.

Also, blowback is not the only type of backspatter.  Backspatter can result from non-contact shots and matter from backspatter can get into the end of a gun even if the shooter is some distance from the target. 

Again, perfectly fair point, but my response is the same as above.  They simply may not have cared or given this much thought.  They may have had the simple notion in their heads that you put blood in the silencer and that's enough.  Why not?

I've covered this point already in my original post that started the thread.  The fact that Fletcher's testing showed no blood in the barrel could be seen as neutral.  You could just as easily argue that a lack of blood in the barrel raises the question of how there could have been backspatter in the silencer.  It does, however, depend on 'blood behaviour', and specifically whether backspatter blood can drip.

But they suspected Sheila was not responsible for other reasons, therefore this point of yours - while valid - would not have occurred to them and a conspiracy would not have hinged on it. 

Their own police statements confirm they knew this at the time.  As gun people they knew that the rifle would normally have a silencer and telescopic sight attached.

They wouldn't necessarily know about this in the scientific sense, but they would probably be aware of it as an empirical phenomenon.  They would just need to have dismantled a silencer or cleaned a gun.

They wouldn't know, that's the whole point.  It's why some people think intentional contamination is a possibility.

Why wouldn't they know Sheila's blood group?  Is that so far-fetched?  Anyway, it needn't have been Sheila's blood.  As you know, blood could not be linked to a specific individual at that time.  They would probably have learned this, either in the past, or during contact with the police during the investigation itself.  Therefore, the same blood group was enough, and they may have been made aware of the family's blood groups during the inquiry, or at some point in the past for unrelated reasons.  If they were aware of this, then it's likely that any human blood would do, due to the range of blood groups in the family.  It need not have been Sheila's.

Answered above.

Answered above.  I will assume they knew their own blood groups, but I appreciate what you are getting at: especially back then, it wasn't a given.  Interestingly, there's also an element of subjectivity in grouping blood, especially forensically, which I assume also applies medically.

Doesn't matter.  They already believed this at the time.  It's confirmed in their own evidence.

They are not criminalists, forensic photographers or crime scene experts.  They would not necessarily have thought about that.  Ironically, sometimes a lack of knowledge and forethought can be an advantage in life.  People with lots of knowledge about a subject hesitate, while people with little or no knowledge but bags of confidence may jump in and get it done.

They did know.

They did know.  That's the whole point.

They had to.  It's their duty.  It's evidence.

Well they didn't.  They delayed.  The police only collected the silencer after Robert Boutflour went up to Witham Police Station to ask what the hell was going on and it was realised there had been a misunderstanding.  Stan Jones was then sent to collect.  Or, at least, that's the relatives' story.

Well Sheila was guilty of nothing, since she was dead.  The dead are beyond the reach of the criminal courts and can't be convicted - or at least in England & Wales that is the case. 

But taking up the thrust of your point, you too may be wrong, Adam.  You may be blaming a living and breathing innocent man for a mass murder; but, I assume you could not and would not do that intentionally.  You must genuinely believe Jeremy to be guilty. 

Anybody could be wrong.

I think the family would only have done this if they sincerely believed he did it. 

This point has occurred to me as well, but I cover it above.  At the end of the day, it boils down to the relatives making a considered calculation.

A good point and I've covered this already: I think the conspiracy would have been limited to just David and Robert and they would have concealed what they were doing from the others.  The others may guess or wonder, but may not ask.  That sort of thing does happen in families.

No need to waste your time on a gish gallop

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gish_Gallop

Well done anyway.

Offline Adam

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Re: The Baffling Mystery Of The Blood In The Silencer
« Reply #128 on: July 25, 2020, 03:02:PM »
If we assume the relatives decided to intentionally contaminate the silencer, then this is my response.  To be clear, I don't believe there is evidence currently to support the view that they did, but I will outline my thinking on Adam's points anyway.

The first thing is that they need a motive.  I've dealt with this already further up the thread.  I've covered the possibility of a 'vital interest' motive and explained what further research I believe is necessary to establish it.  I've also touched on the possibility of a psychological motive on the part of David Boutflour.

In addition, we need to consider the type of people we're dealing with.  Again, I've covered this further up the thread.  These are 'gun types', but they will be lacking in sophisticated ballistical knowledge.  This means they will have enough knowledge to appreciate what needs to be done and they will approach the matter logically, but they may slip up in that they lack the fuller knowledge of the illogical ins and outs that a forensic ballistic expert would be more aware of.

One person found the silencer, so in principle, it would require no more than one person.  Let's err on the side of caution and say there were two people involved: David Boutflour and Robert Boutflour.  Let's say they decide on the plan after David finds the silencer (on the search of the house with Ann and Peter).  Let's say they decide not to reveal their plan to Ann Eaton because she's a woman and they think she will not hold up under scrutiny.  They also decide not to tell Peter Eaton because they think that he may then blow the gaff by telling Ann.  They also agree that on no account should the scheme be disclosed to Karen Boutflour or Pam Boutflour. 

[One problem with my idea here is that, if I understand correctly, they take the silencer back to Ann's house, so it needs more thought - but take this as my 'starter for 10'].

This is a good point, actually.  The problem is this: the two of them will know about guns, but they're not ballistic experts and they may need to find out more about the finer points.  How do they do this without raising suspicions?  There again, maybe this explains the close interest of Robert Boutflour and some of the other relatives in the police investigation and maybe David and Robert were encouraging Ann in this interest or allowing her to pursue her interest, for this reason? 

David and Robert will also make the fair assumption that the police are not keeping tabs on them or tapping their phones, etc., so there is no risk to them in communicating with each other as there would be if they were potential criminal suspects or key witnesses.

Again, a good point, but this is a calculation they would have to make.  The same observation could be made about any piece of evidence.

I suppose what Adam is really getting at here is that there would be a high risk that Jeremy would intuit that the relatives are trying to trap him and set him up, and if we assume a vital interest motive, then a reasoned calculation would have to be made: should the relatives go ahead and trap Jeremy criminally or should they try to reason with him from a business point-of-view and do a deal?

If they were being really crafty, the relatives may have been trying to synthesise those two lines of thought - i.e. set Jeremy up as a means to gain a negotiating advantage on him.  'Do a deal with us over the land and we'll tell the police we agree it was Sheila'. 

I'm not saying I think that happened, but I just float the idea.

Again, good point - but they will have known this, or had the ability to find out.

Good point again - but bear in mind that the order of the assault on the victims was not known, and furthermore, the relatives may not really have cared about this, or they may not have even thought of it.  Remember that we are assuming they are 'gun people', but naive in forensic ballistics.

Also, blowback is not the only type of backspatter.  Backspatter can result from non-contact shots and matter from backspatter can get into the end of a gun even if the shooter is some distance from the target. 

Again, perfectly fair point, but my response is the same as above.  They simply may not have cared or given this much thought.  They may have had the simple notion in their heads that you put blood in the silencer and that's enough.  Why not?

I've covered this point already in my original post that started the thread.  The fact that Fletcher's testing showed no blood in the barrel could be seen as neutral.  You could just as easily argue that a lack of blood in the barrel raises the question of how there could have been backspatter in the silencer.  It does, however, depend on 'blood behaviour', and specifically whether backspatter blood can drip.

But they suspected Sheila was not responsible for other reasons, therefore this point of yours - while valid - would not have occurred to them and a conspiracy would not have hinged on it. 

Their own police statements confirm they knew this at the time.  As gun people they knew that the rifle would normally have a silencer and telescopic sight attached.

They wouldn't necessarily know about this in the scientific sense, but they would probably be aware of it as an empirical phenomenon.  They would just need to have dismantled a silencer or cleaned a gun.

They wouldn't know, that's the whole point.  It's why some people think intentional contamination is a possibility.

Why wouldn't they know Sheila's blood group?  Is that so far-fetched?  They would probably have learned this, either in the past, or during contact with the police during the investigation itself. Anyway, it needn't have been Sheila's blood.  As you know, blood could not be linked to a specific individual at that time.  Therefore, the same blood group was enough, and they may have been made aware of the family's blood groups during the inquiry, or at some point in the past for unrelated reasons.  If they were aware of this, then it's likely that any human blood would do, due to the range of blood groups in the family.  It need not have been Sheila's.

Answered above.

Answered above.  I will assume they knew their own blood groups, but I appreciate what you are getting at: especially back then, it wasn't a given.  Interestingly, there's also an element of subjectivity in grouping blood, especially forensically, which I assume also applies medically.

Doesn't matter.  They already believed this at the time.  It's confirmed in their own evidence.

They are not criminalists, forensic photographers or crime scene experts.  They would not necessarily have thought about that.  Ironically, sometimes a lack of knowledge and forethought can be an advantage in life.  People with lots of knowledge about a subject hesitate, while people with little or no knowledge but bags of confidence may jump in and get it done.

They did know.

They did know.  That's the whole point.

They had to.  It's their duty.  It's evidence.

Well they didn't.  They delayed.  The police only collected the silencer after Robert Boutflour went up to Witham Police Station to ask what the hell was going on and it was realised there had been a misunderstanding.  Stan Jones was then sent to collect.  Or, at least, that's the relatives' story.

Well Sheila was guilty of nothing, since she was dead.  The dead are beyond the reach of the criminal courts and can't be convicted - or at least in England & Wales that is the case. 

But taking up the thrust of your point, you too may be wrong, Adam.  You may be blaming a living and breathing innocent man for a mass murder; but, I assume you could not and would not do that intentionally.  You must genuinely believe Jeremy to be guilty. 

Anybody could be wrong.

I think the family would only have done this if they sincerely believed he did it. 

This point has occurred to me as well, but I cover it above.  At the end of the day, it boils down to the relatives making a considered calculation.

A good point and I've covered this already: I think the conspiracy would have been limited to just David and Robert and they would have concealed what they were doing from the others.  The others may guess or wonder, but may not ask.  That sort of thing does happen in families.

Thanks.

You are the first person to answer the points. Obviously there is no chance of Lookout, JackieD & Mike answering. David agrees it is impossible and has come up with a ridiculous theory about diluted period blood in a bucket of water while Gringo just gets abusive.

I don't agree with most of your points and some of them need sources. You will be the first to admit you are being very optimistic. Maybe give the benefit of the doubt for one point, but not 24.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

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Re: The Baffling Mystery Of The Blood In The Silencer
« Reply #129 on: July 25, 2020, 03:06:PM »
The most simple explanation is Bamber used the silencer in the massacre. He put the silencer away after he had shot everyone.

Suspiscious relatives who had been given the keys to WHF, have a look around. They find a silencer which could be attached to the murder weapon. It appears to have blood and paint on.

The silencer is handed in.
 
« Last Edit: July 25, 2020, 03:07:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

guest29835

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Re: The Baffling Mystery Of The Blood In The Silencer
« Reply #130 on: July 25, 2020, 03:09:PM »
Thanks.

You are the first person to answer the points. Obviously there is no chance of Lookout, JackieD & Mike answering. David agrees it is impossible and has come up with a ridiculous theory about diluted period blood in a bucket of water while Gringo just gets abusive.

I don't agree with most of your points and some of them need sources. You will be the first to admit you are being very optimistic. Maybe give the benefit of the doubt for one point, but not 24.

Oh, again, just to be clear: I don't personally believe they did intentionally contaminate it.  That's based on current evidence, though.  I don't hold to it as an article of faith.  I'm just giving you the Devil's advocate view.

Offline Adam

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Re: The Baffling Mystery Of The Blood In The Silencer
« Reply #131 on: July 25, 2020, 03:28:PM »
Oh, again, just to be clear: I don't personally believe they did intentionally contaminate it.  That's based on current evidence, though.  I don't hold to it as an article of faith.  I'm just giving you the Devil's advocate view.

Some posters have suggested the police, Stan Jones in particular fabricated the silencer. Then asked the relatives, Basil Cock & Barbara Wilson to say they found it and handed it in.

Bamber has stuck with accusing the relatives.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline gringo

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Re: The Baffling Mystery Of The Blood In The Silencer
« Reply #132 on: July 25, 2020, 04:29:PM »
Thanks.

You are the first person to answer the points. Obviously there is no chance of Lookout, JackieD & Mike answering. David agrees it is impossible and has come up with a ridiculous theory about diluted period blood in a bucket of water while Gringo just gets abusive.

I don't agree with most of your points and some of them need sources. You will be the first to admit you are being very optimistic. Maybe give the benefit of the doubt for one point, but not 24.
    Calling your list idiotic is not abusive. Other than that I barely respond to any of your posts because they are just mindless lists of things, or Gish Gallop as David observes.
    I remember when you joined and your posts came across then, as they do now, as disruption. I believe that you post with this purpose in mind and for that reason reply to very little that you say.
   

Offline Roch

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Re: The Baffling Mystery Of The Blood In The Silencer
« Reply #133 on: July 25, 2020, 04:44:PM »
Some posters have suggested the police, Stan Jones in particular fabricated the silencer. Then asked the relatives, Basil Cock & Barbara Wilson to say they found it and handed it in.

Bamber has stuck with accusing the relatives.

HorseyDave's posts about the finding of the silencer were interesting. And he was no fan of JB.

guest29835

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Re: The Baffling Mystery Of The Blood In The Silencer
« Reply #134 on: July 25, 2020, 04:55:PM »
Some posters have suggested the police, Stan Jones in particular fabricated the silencer. Then asked the relatives, Basil Cock & Barbara Wilson to say they found it and handed it in.

Bamber has stuck with accusing the relatives.

I think that's a bit ambitious.  Normally when the police are involved in miscarriages of justice, it's because they've been reckless, cut corners or lied about specific procedural issues.  The quashing of a conviction is not always a commentary on the factual guilt or innocence of an individual.  I've yet to see a case where the police have acted malevolently to convict an ordinary person they believed innocent - but I must add one caveat.

The exception is that I have known circumstances where the police intentionally frame known criminals.  That's still inexcusable, but it's a little different.  It was a way of dealing with criminals and it used to happen a lot - hence the term, 'round up the usual suspects'.  It happens less so nowadays due to checks and controls in the system.

Jeremy was involved in drugs, and he'd burgled the caravan park, but to my understanding he was not known to the police on 7th. August 1985.  If they'd searched their records for a Jeremy Nevill Bamber, born in 1961, nothing would have come up.  He was clean. 

Besides, with this sort of crime, even if he was known to the authorities as the local rat bag, it's a bit of a stretch to believe they'd set him up for something like this.  Normally when the police frame known criminals, it's for things like armed robbery, maybe murders involving strangers, things like that.  They're looking for the 'likely suspect'.  This was a family shooting incident, a bit different.  If Jeremy became a suspect, I have to say it was for solid reasons.

Did Stan Jones specifically have a motive for framing Jeremy?  I don't believe so.

I see it this way:

If Jeremy is innocent, then Stan Jones and the others should have answered for it.  Police officers sometimes develop an idée fixe that can lead to the imprisonment of innocent people.  At root, it's not malice, rather it's a mistake.  They get a bee in their bonnet about somebody.

If Jeremy is guilty, then it is still possible that Stan Jones, Ron Cook, other police officers and the relatives, went about recklessly cutting corners and committing perjury to convict a guilty man.

Guilty people can still be framed for crimes they DID commit.  It's still an injustice, because justice must be done and seen to be done and evidence must be good and sound.