What Happened In The Kitchen?

[guest29835]

Bamber entered the bedroom & shot June & Nevill 9 times.

Nevill got past Bamber & went downstairs.

What injuries were inflicted to Nevill and June at this stage and where in the house and how?

[guest29835]

May I refer you to your #134:

Were you there? No, you weren't.  Sorry but I disagree!  And I'm entitled to form my own view.  You're not judge and jury. 

So we are supposed to guess, check Wikipedia, or what..

We don't know what happened.  That's why I'm neutral, in the absence of stronger evidence.  In order to try and understand what happened, we can use the evidence to construct scenarios.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I am trying to have an intelligent discussion about the case with an adult. 

[Adam]

What injuries were inflicted to Nevill and June at this stage and where in the house and how?

All in the COA document.

[guest29835]

All in the COA document.

The appeal judgment claims that the shots to Nevill were entirely in the master bedroom.  How do you explain that two bullet casings, DRH/13 and DRH/14, are found on the landing?

[Steve_uk]

The appeal judgment claims that the shots to Nevill were entirely in the master bedroom.  How do you explain that two bullet casings, DRH/13 and DRH/14, are found on the landing?

It could be transference by the Raid Team traipsing round a relatively small space. How are we supposed to know..

[guest29835]

It could be transference by the Raid Team traipsing round a relatively small space. How are we supposed to know..

I'm not asking you.  I'm asking a knowledgeable person.  It's none of your business.  Go away.

[Adam]

I suspect the first 7 shots in the main bedroom were from June's side of the bed. The rifle along with Bamber's arms were long enough to hit Nevill in the face.

Nevill getting up would have seen Bamber moving away from the bed to fire his remaining two shots into Nevill's torso.

The 4 shots did not floor Nevill and he moved towards the door to escape. Nevill is a big man & was able to get past Bamber, who was in temporary shock that things were not going to plan.

[Adam]

Nevill may have been going for the office den.

If the gun cupboard door was open & it had a loaded weapon in, he may have had time to fire some bullets prior to the kitchen fight. This would be espescially useful if there was a loaded shot gun, which would kill Bamber.

It would mean killing his son, who was trying to kill him. But if that meant he saved himself & everyone else, in the spur of the moment he would shoot.

However Nevill did not make it to the office den.

[Steve_uk]

I'm not asking you.  I'm asking a knowledgeable person.  It's none of your business.  Go away.

Some of your posts are so pathetic that I xxxxx xxxx xxxxxx xxxxxxxxx:

 i.e. my own theory that Jeremy may have shot her in the second bedroom while she was propped-up in bed or sitting-up or doing something similar

 he would have had to kill her first before everybody else, then after killing the other four, he would have had to go back and change the bed clothes, which we can assume would have aspirated blood on them because the first shot didn't kill her.  Then, he had to carry her to the master bedroom, which in itself is easy work, but he had to do so without leaving any forensic trace of this in the second bedroom or on the landing, or indeed in the master bedroom itself. #147

I go back to my belief that Jeremy's actions were unplanned.  Probably what really happened is that Jeremy  formed a vague idea in his head of leaving a rifle on or by Sheila's body, maybe influenced by something he had seen in a film or on TV. #148

As for going away:


Date Registered:
July 09, 2012, 04:14:PM

Get used to it matey. I'm here and I'm here to stay.

Edited to remove personal attack.

[guest29835]

Some of your posts are so pathetic that I xxxxx xxxx xxxxx xxxxxxxxx:

 i.e. my own theory that Jeremy may have shot her in the second bedroom while she was propped-up in bed or sitting-up or doing something similar

 he would have had to kill her first before everybody else, then after killing the other four, he would have had to go back and change the bed clothes, which we can assume would have aspirated blood on them because the first shot didn't kill her.  Then, he had to carry her to the master bedroom, which in itself is easy work, but he had to do so without leaving any forensic trace of this in the second bedroom or on the landing, or indeed in the master bedroom itself. #147

I go back to my belief that Jeremy's actions were unplanned.  Probably what really happened is that Jeremy  formed a vague idea in his head of leaving a rifle on or by Sheila's body, maybe influenced by something he had seen in a film or on TV. #148

As for going away:


Date Registered:
July 09, 2012, 04:14:PM

Get used to it matey. I'm here and I'm here to stay.

Can I ask the moderators to intervene and speak to this person?

First, in the above post he quotes from two different threads in which I theorise different scenarios, that's why there is an apparent contradiction.  I'm allowed to explore the case and ask questions.  This person is badgering and ridiculing me and has done so from the start.  He is toxic and aggressive, twists things, tries to stoke up conflict and makes everything personal. 

It could be that he has xxxxx xxxxxx, but I have to wonder if he is doing this on purpose due to having some close connection to the case.

His aim is clearly to try to deter myself and others from asking questions about the case.

I see he's posted here since 2012, but I also see that he has fallen out with you and other people here repeatedly and I wonder if one reason why the forum is so quiet is because his behaviour puts people off trying to post about the case and ask questions?

Thanks.

Edit to reflect edit of quoted post and direct response to that.

[guest29835]

I suspect the first 7 shots in the main bedroom were from June's side of the bed. The rifle along with Bamber's arms were long enough to hit Nevill in the face.

Nevill getting up would have seen Bamber moving away from the bed to fire his remaining two shots into Nevill's torso.

The 4 shots did not floor Nevill and he moved towards the door to escape. Nevill is a big man & was able to get past Bamber, who was in temporary shock that things were not going to plan.

Both you and the 2002 appeal court assume the poor parents were fired on within the master bedroom (albeit maybe with Jeremy standing at the threshold of that room).  This makes sense for June, but there is a question mark over what happened with Nevill.

It seems to me that a number of points of evidence are not consistent with Nevill receiving four shots in the master bedroom.

Two of the bullet casings aren't consistent with it.  Maybe we could let this go on the basis that somebody accidentally moved them, but that's only a 'maybe'.  I'm not sure it's as easy as people might think to accidentally move them, and they would have to be moved not just several feet, but through walls.  I tend to the view that the bullet casings may have been negligently displaced instead, due to deficiencies in the SOCO procedures, rather than just being 'kicked'.

However, whatever the explanation, it does seem that even the Crown implicitly rest on the premise that the bullet casings had to be moved.  This surprises me.  The whole scenario surprises me, because I would have thought it easier to say that Jeremy shot Nevill from the landing as Nevill is descending the stairs.  I wonder why that isn't your scenario?  Is it because you would then struggle to explain the lack of blood on the main landing and stairs?

That observation neatly brings me to the blood.  The blood evidence doesn't fit, but I need to research that more.  It could well be that you are right to some extent and the drippage of blood would have been minimal, but let's bear in mind that Nevill was wearing pyjamas, which are presumably loose-fitting, so we can't account for the problem by saying the blood absorbed into his clothing.  Where did it go?  You say there wasn't much of it.  I reserve some considerable doubt about that given the nature of the injuries.  I note from the pathologist's report that Nevill's pyjamas were soaked with blood at the end, so he bled heavily at some point.

There is also the problem that we have to believe that a grievously injured Nevill would barge past Jeremy. 

Another issue is that Jeremy is firing five times into June when he knows he needs to fell Nevill.  I don't quite understand that.  Was June a serious threat to him?  Bear in mind here that he unquestionably shot her in bed, a fact that adds to the puzzle.  Then we have her moving around the bedroom, to an extent that I'm not yet clear about, even though she's been shot five times. 

I also don't quite understand why such a sharp shot as Jeremy would bungle this.  Nevill and June are surely easier targets than the twins.  They're bigger.

Then we have the problem of choreographing the melee downstairs.

If Jeremy has run out of bullets at the threshold of the master bedroom, this means implicitly that he no longer fires into June, and we know June receives no other corporeal injuries, so his full attention is on Nevill.

Nevill barges past him, you say.

That means Jeremy would be closely behind Nevill.

Jeremy can't stop to fire.  He's out of ammunition.

So why does't Jeremy catch up with Nevill before they reach the kitchen?  The fight should be over and done with long before they reach the kitchen, shouldn't it?  The old warhorse has four bullets in him and he's 61.  It should be easy for Jeremy, no?  And it was easy for Jeremy in the kitchen, wasn't it, so we have the proof.  So why didn't Jeremy deal with Nevill earlier?  What difference does it make to the big plan?  In fact, the nearer Nevill is to the master bedroom, the better, surely?  Thus, they should be having a struggle on the stairs, or in the main foyer at the very farthest, would they not?

[Adam]

Bamber may have fired his second two shots into Nevill on the landing. After Nevill got past him. This would explain why Nevill was able to get to the kitchen before being caught. Be surprised if this was how it happened.

Or Bamber shot Nevill by the bedroom door as he was coming towards him. Resulting in the bullet casings being by the door.

Nevill getting past Bamber is no surprise. Nevill was a big fit man. Bamber would have stood back when seeing Nevill advancing.

Bamber caught up with Nevill a few seconds later.

[guest29835]

Bamber may have fired his second two shots into Nevill on the landing. After Nevill got past him. This would explain why Nevill was able to get to the kitchen before being caught.

Or Bamber shot Nevill by the bedroom door as he was coming towards him. Resulting in the bullet casings being by the door.

Bamber caught up with Nevill a few seconds later.

The first, which I have put in bold, is the better explanation, because it allows for Nevill having a bit of a head start.  I think Jeremy firing at Nevill within the bedroom is awkward altogether, due to the length of the rifle (and that probably explains how Nevill got past him). 

But, Nevill's four wounds are on his left side, so firing at him from the landing in the direction of the stairs is a bit a problem.  I do appreciate that maybe two of the wounds would have been inflicted in the bedroom.  Perhaps the facial wounds while Nevill was in bed, as he is on the right hand side of the bed; then, the arm and neck/shoulder wound is while fleeing Jeremy.

Would Nevill have faced back in the direction of Jeremy at any point as he descended the stairs and Jeremy stood on the main landing?  I think there is [was] a 90-degree turn in the stairs.

[Adam]

The first, which I have put in bold, is the better explanation, because it allows for Nevill having a bit of a head start.  I think Jeremy firing at Nevill within the bedroom is awkward altogether, due to the length of the rifle (and that probably explains how Nevill got past him). 

But, Nevill's four wounds are on his left side, so firing at him from the landing in the direction of the stairs is a bit a problem.  I do appreciate that maybe two of the wounds would have been inflicted in the bedroom.  Perhaps the facial wounds while Nevill was in bed, as he is on the right hand side of the bed; then, the arm and neck/shoulder wound is while fleeing Jeremy.

Would Nevill have faced back in the direction of Jeremy at any point as he descended the stairs and Jeremy stood on the main landing?  I think there is [was] a 90-degree turn in the stairs.

Yes the two accurate face shots were while Nevill was in bed. The arm & neck shots were while Nevill was standing.

[guest29835]

Yes the two accurate face shots were while Nevill was in bed. The arm & neck shots were while Nevill was standing.

Adam, these exchanges we have had have been helpful to me.  Your posts are succinct and knowledgeable.

Regrettably, I'm not convinced about the scenario you outline.  There are a number of flaws, in my view, due to the ballistic and forensic evidence. 

For now, I'll pull out one, which is the manner in which the poor twins were shot.  The casing pattern I think can be relied on because it is discrete to that room - a factor that pretty much precludes professional error.

The shooting pattern in the twin's bedroom suggests to me one change of position, which means there is something in your suppositions.  Like you, I think the killer must have returned to the twins' bedroom to fire again rather than negate the boys in one fusillade. 

If Jeremy was 'going back to make sure' (which I appreciate is plausible), he would have changed position and we see that clearly in the fusillade pattern.

Where I differ is that I surmise two things from the manifest casing pattern:

(i). The killer has shot the twins six times at close range in rapid fire, roughly in an arc pattern: DRH/16, DRH/17, DRH/37, and DRH/18 and DRH/39(double case).

(ii). The killer has shot the twins twice at intermediate range roughly from the door: DRH/38 and DRH/40.

Note: For present purposes, I'm ignoring/disregarding DRH/36.

I conclude from this that the first fusillade was (i) and the second fusillade was (ii).

In other words, at least as far as the twins' bedroom is concerned, I am reversing your scenario and saying that the killer starts by firing at close range six times, then a second fusillade is initiated at intermediate range 'to make sure'.

I believe this makes logical sense.

This has implications.  It means Jeremy does not have sufficient bullets to attack both Nevill and June in the way that the Crown allege.  It also makes sense that he would not at this stage go downstairs to re-load (assuming he does not carry the ammunition with him).  We can also say that it makes sense that Jeremy, if he was the killer, would have the nous to ensure that he launched his assault with a fully-loaded weapon.  We will assume he also had a cartridge in the breech at the outset.

From this, we deduce that after the first assault on the twins, he had five cartridges left. 

If the killer was Jeremy, his priority would have been Nevill.  For the purposes of exploring this scenario with you, I am assuming however that he has attacked the twins first - perhaps even to test the gun, but also perhaps because, rightly or wrongly, he perceives them as the line of least resistance and he also wants to preclude the possibility of them running around the house, hiding and even escaping.

I tentatively deduce from all this that he must have then attacked Nevill and June in the master bedroom.

Let's assume, as it's your premise, that the rifle is silent.  But let's err on the side of caution and say that June has heard something - maybe just Jeremy moving about - and she stirs Nevill.  Nevill is now up.  That would help explain things.  Jeremy senses this and reaches the master bedroom. 

His assault on his parents is incomplete.  He fires into June but she only receives maybe two bullets, which explains why she could move around. I think we can say it must have been at least two bullets.  If it was only one bullet into June at this stage, then she potentially escapes and blows the gaff.

Thus, there are three bullets left for Nevill.  Probably Nevill is shot before June actually.  As I think we've agreed, maybe the shot to the face comes first, then two more shots into poor Nevill's left side - i.e. arm and neck/shoulder.

From the perspective of time-and-motion consistency, three shots to Nevill is better than four at this stage because we need Nevill to run through the house to the kitchen and we have the embarrassment of a lack of blood evidence to contend with and explain. 

Here's the problem I'm left with: the bullet casings are wrong in this scenario.  The only way I think we can make it fit and be consistent with D.I. Cook's findings is if we say that the twins were shot in three sessions, but why would Jeremy do that, it makes little sense, and is it consistent ballistically with what we find and what the pathologist opinionated?