Why Nevill Could Not Have Made A 999 Call: A Logical Case

[Adam]

I have already shown you that this is unlikely with reference to the evidence.  See my earlier post about what happened in the twins' bedroom.

Seems surprising if Bamber went upstairs and didn't empty the rifle. Espescially after Nevill stood up.

[guest29835]

Seems surprising if Bamber went upstairs and didn't empty the rifle. Espescially after Nevill stood up.

I'm not saying he didn't empty the rifle.  Obviously he must have done at some point.  It's more a question of when (or at what point).

[Robittybob1]

QCChevalier  I might be misunderstanding you, but as I believe at this point in time, it is the JB team that are the ones claiming there was a 999 call made as well as a call made to Jeremy.

"We want to understand how plausible it is for Jeremy to be the killer", no, because from the title of the thread I thought more along the lines "we want to understand how plausible it is for Nevill to ring 999", the title being" Re: Why Nevill Could Not Have Made A 999 Call: A Logical Case".

Sheila may have ran out of ammunition. He comes down stairs to use the phone, would he dial 999 or Jeremy's number that seems a logical choice IMO.

[guest29835]

QCChevalier  I might be misunderstanding you, but as I believe at this point in time, it is the JB team that are the ones claiming there was a 999 call made as well as a call made to Jeremy.

"We want to understand how plausible it is for Jeremy to be the killer", no, because from the title of the thread I thought more along the lines "we want to understand how plausible it is for Nevill to ring 999", the title being" Re: Why Nevill Could Not Have Made A 999 Call: A Logical Case".

Sheila may have ran out of ammunition. He comes down stairs to use the phone, would he dial 999 or Jeremy's number that seems a logical choice IMO.

It does appear you are misunderstanding me. but I don't mind as I appreciate that there are lots of posts.

I want to know how plausible it is for Nevill to ring 999 because I want to know how plausible it is for Jeremy to be the killer, and this is one question I want to explore.  There are hundreds of questions.  This is one.

When I talk in terms of 'Jeremy did this...' and 'If Sheila did this...', that may seem confusing.  It's because I'm walking through scenarios hypothetically to see how they match the evidence we have.  It doesn't mean I think Jeremy is the killer or Sheila is the killer just because I am mentioning them as the killer.  It's an exploration, not a definitive legal statement.

Also, as I've said before, the claim that Nevill may have rung 999 need not be just of help to the defence.  It could help the prosecution.  It all depends on two things:

(i). The timing of the abortive 999 call.
(ii). Why the existence of such a call has not been disclosed.

Equally, the claim that there wasn't a 999 call need not just be of help to the prosecution.  It could in fact help the defence - for the reasons I've already explored in the thread.  You see, if you stop and think about it, a 999 call actually makes more sense from the point-of-view of Jeremy being the killer, but it would have to be a broken/abortive call, or a situation where Nevill can't quite make the call (perhaps due to the slow dial, as you mentioned).  Yet there was no blood found on the phone. 

There is also the fact that Nevill was shot twice in the face, but that does not preclude a 999 call.  It would only prevent him from speaking coherently, or at all, into the phone, it would not stop him making the call. Actually, the shots to the neck/shoulder and arm would probably present more of a difficulty in this respect.

Just for the abundance of clarify (because I know somebody will come along and misconstrue this): No, I am not suggesting there was a 999 call.  In fact, in the original post, I give a possible logical explanation as to why there could not have been.

[Robittybob1]

What are you on about?

Fact: Jeremy made the call to the Police around 3:26 AM  - you don't doubt that do you?

So if Jeremey did the shooting it would have to have been before that - do you agree?

So tell me when could this 999 call have been made by Nevill to the police from WHF if Jeremy was the shooter?

[Steve_uk]

I think his point would be that it was an abortive call made by his fingers dialling 999 just before Jeremy caught up with him in the kitchen. Jeremy would then have to wipe the telephone clean of Nevill's blood.

Of course it's all hypothetical, and some would say hypothetical nonsense.

[guest29835]

What are you on about?

Fact: Jeremy made the call to the Police around 3:26 AM  - you don't doubt that do you?

So if Jeremey did the shooting it would have to have been before that - do you agree?

So tell me when could this 999 call have been made Nevill to the police from WHF if Jeremy was the shooter?

Before 3.26 a.m., presumably.  And that may be why Jeremy rang them at 3.26 a.m., or at all. 

But I haven't said Nevill did.  Please read my last two posts and again, think about them, and try and understand.  If you still don't understand, possibly we're wasting our time.

You state that it is a fact that Jeremy called the police at 3.26 a.m.  Forgive me, but I'm not sure that is accepted as fact by all reasonable people who have looked at this. 

Let's say Jeremy is the killer, I haven't said that this means Nevill had to ring 999.  Nor have I said he didn't.  Nor have I said that Nevill would ring 999 in any event.  But let's say Jeremy caught him at the phone or in the middle of a call that was never completed, maybe because he couldn't speak into the phone due to his injuries.  This may then be what prompted Jeremy to call the police - it may be what gave him the impetus for the alibi. that in addition to the awkward fact of Nevill being found in the kitchen at all.

But I only speculate.  I'm only exploring and asking questions.

[guest29835]

I think his point would be that it was an abortive call made by his fingers dialling 999 just before Jeremy caught up with him in the kitchen. Jeremy would then have to wipe the telephone clean of Nevill's blood.

Of course it's all hypothetical, and some would say hypothetical nonsense.

But I'm not asserting it happened, Steve.  I'm just exploring ideas.

Why is this Forum such a pressure cooker with people on at each other?  Why can't people ask questions?

[Steve_uk]

But I'm not asserting it happened, Steve.  I'm just exploring ideas.

Why is this Forum such a pressure cooker with people on at each other?  Why can't people ask questions?

..because you're far too touchy. All these issues have been explored in previous threads, hence the comparative low number of hits. Despite your assertion I can assure you that most of the troublemakers have either been banned or left of their own accord.

[guest29835]

..because you're far too touchy. All these issues have been explored in previous threads, hence the comparative low number of hits. Despite your assertion I can assure you that most of the troublemakers have either been banned or left of their own accord.

Not true, but my approach to debate is to listen to what other people say.  Yours (and it seems, that of 'Rob') is to be rude and dismissive and not bother reading previous posts.

Furthermore, these ideas have not been explored in previous threads, at least not in the sense I am here.  And even if they have, who are you to come on here and tell people what they should and should not discuss?  Could you please explain what authority you have to do that, who granted you this authority and when?

I think you need to examine your own attitude, Teacher Steve.  I think you've spent far too long talking over people and not enough time stopping to listen.

[Steve_uk]

Not true, but my approach to debate is to listen to what other people say.  Yours (and it seems, that of 'Rob') is to be rude and dismissive and not bother reading previous posts.

Furthermore, these ideas have not been explored in previous threads, at least not in the sense I am here.  And even if they have, who are you to come on here and tell people what they should and should not discuss.

I think you need to examine your own attitude, Teacher Steve.  I think you've spent far too long talking over people and not enough time stopping to listen.

I'm not saying that at all. You can discuss anything you like Sir.

[guest29835]

I am going to ignore the weirdos.

Let me just set out one possibility.  I stress it's only hypothetical and I don't say that I myself believe it.

1. Jeremy is the killer.
2. Let's say, for argument's sake, it's 2.30 a.m.
3. Nevill makes it the kitchen phone somehow.
4. Nevill manages to make a 999 call, but he finds he can't speak into the phone.
5. Jeremy finds him in the kitchen, then drags him away from the phone and kills him.
6. Jeremy guesses reasonably that Nevill was calling 999 and realises that Nevill hasn't spoken into the phone.  He terminates the call, or it was terminated at the other end.
7. Jeremy wipes the phone clean, for whatever reason.  Probably because he has his blood prints on it, albeit he may have been wearing gloves (gloves can still leave prints and this would be obvious to him).
8. Jeremy decides he will make a call of his own that will be fake, so as to set up a plausible scenario as to why Nevill was found in the kitchen and had not called 999.

The above could also explain why Jeremy seems so certain that Nevill made a 999 call.  It could be that Jeremy knows for a fact Nevill made such a call (it's at least a reasonable assumption) and also guesses (again, quite reasonably) that there will be no record to show that the call was made much earlier in the morning than he claims, as it was an abortive call and probably no record exists of it.  He can just simply say Essex Police did not record it or there was confusion on the part of Bonnett and West.

[Adam]

The CT are saying Nevill phoned Chelmsford police station. The fifth furthest away police station. Which would take a long time to do with a dial up phone.

It is just to create publicity.

Why would Nevill want to dial 999 while being chased directly after being shot 4 times?

[guest29835]

The CT are saying Nevill phoned Chelmsford police station. The fifth furthest away police station. Which would take a long time to do with a dial up phone.

It is just to create publicity.

Why would Nevill want to dial 999 while being chased directly after being shot 4 times?

Well, yes.  But possibly he was running to the phone anyway?  It doesn't have to make sense, as subjectively it's a crazy situation to start with.  Or maybe he was trying to escape, as you say.  But if we say he was trying to escape, would he do that with the family still in the house?  I'm not entirely comfortable with that part of it.

I see what you mean about Nevill ringing a police station, but on the other hand, Nevill was a magistrate and I think it is reasonable to assume that he would want to contain any critical incident and speak to somebody he knows, if possible.  I'm not saying that's the truth of what happened, I just think it is a reasonable possibility.

[Adam]

Well, yes.  But possibly he was running to the phone anyway?  It doesn't have to make sense, as subjectively it's a crazy situation to start with.  Or maybe he was trying to escape, as you say.  But if we say he was trying to escape, would he do that with the family still in the house?  I'm not entirely comfortable with that part of it.

I see what you mean about Nevill ringing a police station, but on the other hand, Nevill was a magistrate and I think it is reasonable to assume that he would want to contain any critical incident and speak to somebody he knows, if possible.  I'm not saying that's the truth of what happened, I just think it is a reasonable possibility.

The gun cupboard was in Nevill's office den at the back of the kitchen.

Or he may have wanted to get outside to contact someone like Len Foakes.