JAMES BELL - there are some who believe that he was responsible for whf tragedy

[Harry]

It's a myth that Jones suspected Jeremy from the first day. He must have known that Jeremy was innocent because of the changes to the crimescene after he had left for Goldhanger. How could colleagues have kept the truth from Stan, when he asked them to tell him what had happened.

Either the police accidentally shot Sheila after he left or she got off the bed and shot herself. Whatever the truth is, Jones would have been told. The blood flow from the second wound makes it obvious that Sheila was still alive when she was shot the second time, so Jones would have known that Jeremy was innocent and the relatives would have pressed him to tell them what he knew.

[Harry]

All of these people, the relatives and the police involved in the investigation would have known within the first few weeks that Bamber was innocent.

The reason for the framing of Jeremy was that Robert Boutflour threatened to go to the press with what he knew about a police cover up. ACC Peter Simpson gave in to his demands and ordered his subordinates to look for ways to bring about the prosecution of Bamber, because he knew that this was the only way to guarantee the silence of the relatives.

This does not imply that Simpson knew about the faking of the silencer evidence by Stan Jones and other lower ranking officers when the plot was first hatched by Jones and DI Ron Cook, probably after September 6th when Julie Mugford came forward. 

He seems not to have known about it before the press conference of September 17th, or known about the set up false finding on September 11th which was backdated in fraudulent witness statements to make it appear that David Boutflour found a silencer on August 10th, but it is clear when he found out about it he went along with it. He may have felt that he had no choice.

[Harry]

The above interpretation is indicated by the fact that Simpson told the press on September 17th that a silencer had been found by the police on August 7th. The fact that this report was soon after retracted suggests that he had been informed of what was afoot only after the gaffe of admitting that the police found the silencer which was sent to Huntingdon laboratory on August 14th.

If the police found the silencer in gun cupboard on August 7th 1985, they must have also found the other items which were in the same location and which were given related exhibit references. SBJ/1 was the silencer, SBJ/2 was the telescopic sight and so on. So how could the relatives have found those things on the August 10th?

The relatives did not find a silencer on August 10th. The police returned items to the gun cupboard of Whitehouse Farm to set up the fake finding on September 11th, before backdating the visit and telling the story that Jones collected the silencer from Ann and Peter Eaton on August 13th, but had left other items including the telescopic sight with the Eatons until it was collected by DC Oakey on September 11th. The fact is Oakey did collect the silencer along with the telescopic sight from Ann Eaton. Of course, Ann Eaton knows that.

Doc P31) Telephone Message Log 38, 11th September 1985 reads:
‘David Boutflour states he has found a silencer with blood on it’

(Doc P35) Action Report 88 reads: ‘Collection of silencer AE (Ann Eaton) 11th September to Wright items obtained by DC Oakey’

[David1819]

Either the police accidentally shot Sheila after he left or she got off the bed and shot herself. Whatever the truth is, Jones would have been told. The blood flow from the second wound makes it obvious that Sheila was still alive when she was shot the second time, so Jones would have known that Jeremy was innocent and the relatives would have pressed him to tell them what he knew.

Yes. She was alive for second or two prior to self inflicting the second shot.

Shelia was never on the bed. There was no blood present to show this. The RAID team notes all state Sheila was on the floor. This is corroborated by the crime scene photos and the shell casing location.

These cranky dopey theories of yours and Mikes do Jeremy no favours. They have to end.

[David1819]

The above interpretation is indicated by the fact that Simpson told the press on September 17th that a silencer had been found by the police on August 7th. The fact that this report was soon after retracted suggests that he had been informed of what was afoot only after the gaffe of admitting that the police found the silencer which was sent to Huntingdon laboratory on August 14th.

If the police found the silencer in gun cupboard on August 7th 1985, they must have also found the other items which were in the same location and which were given related exhibit references. SBJ/1 was the silencer, SBJ/2 was the telescopic sight and so on. So how could the relatives have found those things on the August 10th?

The relatives did not find a silencer on August 10th. The police returned items to the gun cupboard of Whitehouse Farm to set up the fake finding on September 11th, before backdating the visit and telling the story that Jones collected the silencer from Ann and Peter Eaton on August 13th, but had left other items including the telescopic sight with the Eatons until it was collected by DC Oakey on September 11th. The fact is Oakey did collect the silencer along with the telescopic sight from Ann Eaton. Of course, Ann Eaton knows that.

Doc P31) Telephone Message Log 38, 11th September 1985 reads:
‘David Boutflour states he has found a silencer with blood on it’

(Doc P35) Action Report 88 reads: ‘Collection of silencer AE (Ann Eaton) 11th September to Wright items obtained by DC Oakey’

Its already been pointed out to you that what Oakley collected was the box that contained the silencer that David Boutflour found.

You allege that all the huntingdon lab records and COLP documents that contradict you are an ellaborate collection of "backdated forgeries" yet you have nothing to show this is the case.

Another cranky dopey theory of yours and Mikes thats already up in smoke.

[mike tesko]

It's a myth that Jones suspected Jeremy from the first day. Jeremy wasn't suspected of killing Sheila because he hadn't killed her. He didn't get put in the frame for Sheila's killing until after the first week in September 1985..He must have known that Jeremy was innocent because of the changes to the crimescene after he had left for Goldhanger. I think he had doubts once he found out about the angle and trajectory of the first shot which turned out to be fired horizontal in fashion across Sheila's neck - at a time when she only had one shot to her neck..How could colleagues have kept the truth from Stan, when he asked them to tell him what had happened. as I say, I think DS Jones did not believe that Sheila had shot herself across the neck at the time she only had one shot to her neck..

Either the police accidentally shot Sheila after he left or she got off the bed and shot herself. .. if Sheila had shot herself, I think police would have reported it as it had happenned..Whatever the truth is, Jones would have been told. yes, I think he eventually was told.. The blood flow from the second wound makes it obvious that Sheila was still alive when she was shot the second time, that's why the cops tried to stem the flow of blood, from the second bullet entry wound using fingers..[/li][/list] so Jones would have known that Jeremy was innocent innocent of shooting dead, his sister..and the relatives would have pressed him to tell them what he knew.

[mike tesko]

Its already been pointed out to you that what Oakley collected was the box that contained the silencer that David Boutflour found. rather than trying to rubbish the actual truth, you ought to ask yourself why David Boutflour decided to telephone Essex police and tell them that he had found 'the silencer' to the gun. Rather more telling was the fact that by 14th September 1985, how he had found each of the two silencers inside the gun cupboard in the den, by pointing out that he had found 'a silencer' in 'this' place, and 'that' place in the same gun cupboard? Now, if David Boutflour found two silencers in the gun cupboard as stated by himself in a report to Essex police by the 14th September 1985, how come the relatives only handed over one silencer (Peter Eaton to DS Jones on evening of 12th August 1985) to police? So, by all means offer your opinion, but try to stop short of trying to make out that people like me, don't know what we are talking about! Sheila didn't shoot herself dead, that's my take on the matter! And, more importantly, she was originally shot across the neck by a weapon with a silencer fitted onto the end of the guns barrel, there can be little doubt about this. There was no silencer in contact with Sheila's neck at the time the second fatal shot was received - two guns, one with a silencer fitted, the other, silencerless!

You allege that all the huntingdon lab records and COLP documents that contradict you are an ellaborate collection of "backdated forgeries" yet you have nothing to show this is the case. unfortunately, there are 'huggins of documentary evidence' proving beyond a shadow of doubt that the Lab' records were doctored!

Another cranky dopey theory of yours and Mikes look at your own theories, and Jeremy's himself - Sheila couldn't have shot herself, it's an impossibility! thats already up in smoke. Great, you have all the answers that don't add up, or make any sense at all - you, Jeremy and all the other supporters will never be able to prove that Sheila took her own life because she didn't. There's more chance of the trial judge ( Mr Justice Drake) being Sheila's killer..

[mike tesko]

Yes. She was alive for second or two there was a far more lengthy delay between the infliction of the two shots, not merely a matter of a second or two..prior to self inflicting the second shot impossible, Sheila did not shoot herself..

Shelia was never on the bed. Sheila was never only on the main bedroom floor, she was seen through the laundry room window on the laundry room floor behind the door, before police started to force the  external farmhouse door open! She was then inside the kitchen after the body of Neville Bamber had already been reported as also having been found, at 7.35am, 7.37am, 7.38am, 7.42am, and 7.45am! Sheila"s body was none of the three bodies that were present upstairs by 8.10am.. There was no blood present to show this. please, stop being ridiculous! Look at the vertical blood flow from the lower bullet entry wound ( this relates to the first shot across the neck inflicted downstairs in the kitchen)! You can see that Sheila had not bled profusely after she received that first shot, unlike the blood flow from the fatal second shot which caused the triangular bloodstain in the region of Sheila's nightdress ( right armpit)..The RAID team notes all state Sheila was on the floor. the contemporaneously recorded timed police radio message log contents, place Sheila's body downstairs on the kitchen floor..This is corroborated by the crime scene photos and the shell casing location. but, by the same token, contradicted by the missing, withheld other crime scene photographs, and crime scene video taken by DC Oakey and DC Henderson (1st SOCO team - 9am to 10am)..

These cranky dopey theories of yours and Mikes do Jeremy no favours. They have to end. your own theories are unworkable, and Jeremy will remain where he is indefinitely, until you see the errors of your ways..

[mike tesko]

I am a real life case investigator, it doesn't matter to me, if the case I am reviewing is a murder case, or a shop lifting offence, I see it as it is, as it was - in the instant case, I can say with a degree of certainty that Sheila Caffell did not shoot herself dead, there on the main bedroom floor! She did not receive two shots within moments of one another, she did not raise the fingers of her right hand to the fatal bullet wound to her neck to try and stem the flow of blood from pouring out of that 2nd wound..

It happenned exactly as I have told it countless times, cops shot Sheila dead at 9.13am, during a police training exercise which went dramatically wrong!

Why do you think that senior officers, two firearm officers, and two SOCO's daren't talk about the duties they performed inside the main bedroom between 9am - 10am on the first morning of the shooting tragedy? Jeremy didn't kill his sister, the cops did..

I am 100% certain that this is what did take place!

The alleged case relied upon by the prosecution to help get Jeremy Bamber convicted was contrived and totally dishonest..

[mike tesko]

The alleged case relied upon by the prosecution to help get Jeremy Bamber convicted was contrived and totally dishonest..

Cook and his crooks had no legal right to claim that they had photographed the bodies undisturbed 'insitu', and they had no legal right to claim that it was 'they' who had seized all the exhibits, including the anshuzt rifle, bullet cases, and the bible - since, DC Oakey and DC Henderson had already carried out these duties, and walked in the footsteps of Cook, Davidson, Hammersley and PC Bird (2nd SOCO team) - the second SOCO team simply collected up the exhibits which the first SOCO team and senior officers left for them to collect up!

[Harry]

Yes. She was alive for second or two prior to self inflicting the second shot.

Shelia was never on the bed. There was no blood present to show this. The RAID team notes all state Sheila was on the floor. This is corroborated by the crime scene photos and the shell casing location.

These cranky dopey theories of yours and Mikes do Jeremy no favours. They have to end.

"Yes. She was alive for second or two prior to self inflicting the second shot."

It is notable that whenever this anomaly is pointed out to you, you just avoid responding.

The photographs of Sheila show that it's not only plainly obvious that she couldn't have died before 03:00 in the morning which was over seven hours before the photographs showing fresh blood were taken, but also that a time of death at the time the police broke in at about 07:30 is also ruled out according to accepted medical assumptions about the time it takes for blood trails to dry.


 
If Sheila had shot herself twice at 07:30 or thereabouts she would have been dead for over two hours before photographs showing blood still discharging were taken.

Professors Meloni Cavalli said that they thought Sheila could not have been dead for more than two hours when the photographs were taken. That does not mean that they thought she had been dead for two hours.

In fact it implies the view she had probably been dead for less than that time. The two hours is meant to set an upper limit to the time, not to claim it was the most probably time. You seem to think that the extreme limit set allows you to fit in a time of two hours to accommodate 07:30. It's a common mistake to confuse different kinds of question in that way. 

The theory that there was only a few seconds between the two shots is contradicted by the pathologist Peter Vanezis, who said in court that he could tell from the large amount of hemorrhaging that the lower wound must have been inflicted some time earlier than the upper, because the upper wound would have been instantly fatal.

You listen to that, but still claim that there was only a few seconds between the two shots, so what's the point of arguing.

Also, when Dr Craig certified Sheila dead at 8:44, he said that he saw only one bullet wound and he said that the blood was dry. The photograph taken at around 10:00am shows two wounds and blood trails that are still wet. Craig confirmed in his later statement to COLP that he really did see only one wound at that stage.

It's notable that Craig was careful not to say that there definitely was only one wound, but expresses himself in a way that is curiously ambiguous-as if there might have been two, but he only saw one! The COLP investigators ought to have asked him to express himself more clearly. It was probably they who suggested he put it like that.

In truth, it's absurd that Craig would not have seen two bullet wounds if they had both been there, because the two trails lead the eye to them. Although what looks like a trail from the lower wound is actually a mirror stain from the upper trail, it looked at a casual glance like a trail from the lower wound.

How could Craig not have noticed the two trails, if they had both been present at that time?

Mike Tesko says he has seen a photograph of Sheila on the bed and he says that the two blood trails running to Sheila's right were not there at that stage. That makes perfect sense given that the lower trail is a mirror stain from the upper, which probably occurred when a cop moved Sheila head to the right a few seconds after the second shot. If he lifted her head, it may have caused two skin surfaces to have contact, hence the mirror stain.

There was a trail from the lower wound running down across the necklace. It is still there in the later pictures but feint, just as if somebody had tried to remove it. The upper wound was inflicted after the picture Mike saw was taken.

[Harry]

Its already been pointed out to you that what Oakley collected was the box that contained the silencer that David Boutflour found.

You allege that all the huntingdon lab records and COLP documents that contradict you are an ellaborate collection of "backdated forgeries" yet you have nothing to show this is the case.

Another cranky dopey theory of yours and Mikes thats already up in smoke.

Those records are far from consistent. In fact they are full of contradictions. There is plenty evidence of wrongdoing.

 It's just not credible that ACC Simpson was "mistaken" when he said at a press conference on September 17th that the police had found a silencer on August 7th.

[Caroline]

That is a reasonable assumption to make. DS Stan Jones (and not DC Mick Clark) had told Ann Eaton that he had seen Sheila's body on the bed with a bible on her chest. and the rifle resting on the bed in-between the bodies of June and Sheila..[/color][/i]That information would have been passed on to the other relatives yes, this is what did take place.. leaving the police with some explaining to do to account for the discrepancy between what Jones had told Ann Eaton and the photographs showing Sheila's body on the floor. this disparity mentioned in several newspaper articles, Sheila's body found on top of bed, and found on the bedroom floor..

Saying that what Jones told Ann Eaton was a "mistake" won't wash because he had just come from the crime scene and was describing what he had just seen himself. Sheila was laid on top of the bed, before her body was moved onto the bedroom floor.. Jones relates in his own records that he had seen Sheila and said that her body was on the far side of the bed and that she looked peaceful. because Sheila's body was laid on top of the bed at the time of DS Jones first visit to the main bedroom..

The relatives would have asked Jones for an explanation of the discrepency between what he had told them on August 7th and what appeared in the photographs taken after he had left. this confrontation almost certainly happenned at the beginning of September 1985..He probably would have eventually told them the truth, namely that Sheila was shot again after Dr Craig's examination. .. this is true.. At any rate he would have had to tell them something.

Where is the evidence that Stan Jones told Ann Eaton  the above?

[mike tesko]

Where is the evidence that Stan Jones told Ann Eaton  the above?

Ann Eaton made a witness statement to the COLP investigators, saying that she was told by a police officer that June and Sheila's bodies were laid on top of the bed, that Sheila had a Bible resting on her chest, and the silencerless anshuzt rifle resting on the bed in between the two bodies - take your pick, since only Clarke and Jones visited Jeremy's cottage on the first morning of Essex police's investigation. Ann Eaton told COLP she couldn't remember who that officer was, does anybody believe her?

[Harry]

Where is the evidence that Stan Jones told Ann Eaton  the above?

Mike Tesko writes
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,9524.msg441824.html#msg441824

"I personally asked Jeremy if he was there when the police told Ann Eaton that he had seen Sheila and June Bambers bodies laid side by side on top of the bed in his parents bedroom? He said, 'no'. When I put it to Jeremy that he must have been there, Jeremy told me that he was with DC Mick Clark at the time it was said by Stan Jones, giving him his first witness statement...

The rather worrying thing about all of this, from what Jeremy has told me, was that Ann Eaton and the relatives never mentioned any of these details to him at all..."

Ann Eaton has never tried to claim that Jeremy was present when the "police" gave her that information, so it would seem unreasonable to try to make out that Jeremy was lying when he told Mike he was with DC Mick Clark at the time

DS Jones and DC Mick Clark were the only policeman at Jeremy's cottage at that time. If Jeremy was with Mick Clark, it must have been Jones who told Ann Eaton where the bodies were found and from Jones or from Ann Eaton that Julie Mugford, who was also there, got the description of Sheila on the bed with a bible on her chest.

It is notable that when Ann Eaton answers a question untruthfully she sometimes says "I think" when she knows the truth.

For example, when asked in court by Rivlin, defending, who it was who told her about Sheila having a bible on her chest she answered "I think it was Julie Mugford". She knew it was the police and when Rivlin presented her with her own statement, she was forced to admit it.

In her statements, when relating what the "police" told her concerning the location of the bodies, she made it seem like she was unsure who the officer was who told her about the bible on Sheila's chest. She said "I think it was Mick Clark". She knew it was Stan Jones.

Putting two and two together DS Jones did not want her to tell anybody that he had told her about Sheila being on the bed with a bible on her chest and for a reason which should seem obvious. He wanted to avoid being questioned as to why he gave that information, if Sheila had really been found on the bedroom floor.