Author Topic: *Unequivocal Proof Jeremy Bamber is innocent*  (Read 17142 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Adam

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 44394
Re: *Unequivocal Proof Jeremy Bamber is innocent*
« Reply #60 on: March 19, 2018, 10:47:PM »
I believe Stan Jones had a deep seated resentment, bordering on hatred towards Jeremy Bamber.

Why do you believe Stan Jones had these feelings ?
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Roch

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17586
Re: *Unequivocal Proof Jeremy Bamber is innocent*
« Reply #61 on: March 20, 2018, 11:24:AM »
The chain of custody is a mess. It is best to look at the forensics rather than the paperwork

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,9070.msg428816.html#msg428816

The forensics have already been looked at.  The authorities were able to apply their own 'due process' in order to shut-down any progress for the defence.  By insisting that further tests were required, which the defence could not financially commission, they were able to effectively 'time-out' the defence.  Adding further salt to the wounds, they were able to con the public and media in to accepting that they had 'bent over backwards' to accommodate the defence. 

What is needed in a documentary is a kind of 'massive assault' on the sound moderator.  The anomalies re the discovery; the custodial record; and the forensics. 

The police and relatives can be invited to take part for the sake of 'balance'.  I'll vouch that their contributions on this aspect of the case will be extremely muted.   
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 11:25:AM by Roch »

Offline Roch

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17586
Re: *Unequivocal Proof Jeremy Bamber is innocent*
« Reply #62 on: March 20, 2018, 01:34:PM »
Mark Williams-Thomas was introduced to the case initially through Jackie Preece's twitter campaign.  He then joined this forum and read the material and decided to make a documentary.  He was put in contact with Simon MacKay who cooperated with him.  He did have material for a further documentary but that is another story.

Neil, in your opinion, can / should anything be attempted to re-engage Mr Williams-Thomas in revisiting the case?  Is the 'story' you refer to one of 'politics' behind the scenes (of the original documentary) or material discovered but not yet used?

Offline ngb1066

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6671
Re: *Unequivocal Proof Jeremy Bamber is innocent*
« Reply #63 on: March 20, 2018, 01:46:PM »
Neil, in your opinion, can / should anything be attempted to re-engage Mr Williams-Thomas in revisiting the case?  Is the 'story' you refer to one of 'politics' behind the scenes (of the original documentary) or material discovered but not yet used?

There was material discovered but not used - the documentary was far too short to cover multiple aspects of the case.  That material was very interesting and significant and would have featured in the grounds of appeal if the CCRC had referred the case in 2012.  A further documentary was contemplated but as you suggest "politics" behind the scenes was the major factor in that not happening.

Offline Roch

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17586
Re: *Unequivocal Proof Jeremy Bamber is innocent*
« Reply #64 on: March 20, 2018, 02:04:PM »
There was material discovered but not used - the documentary was far too short to cover multiple aspects of the case.  That material was very interesting and significant and would have featured in the grounds of appeal if the CCRC had referred the case in 2012.  A further documentary was contemplated but as you suggest "politics" behind the scenes was the major factor in that not happening.

Neil, do you agree with the sentiment of my other post above?  If a new documentary focussed solely on the sound-moderator as an exhibit - it could effectively close-down the scope for any accusations of 'imbalance' towards the producers.  The reason for this is that the only information sought by program-makers from any contributor, would relate to sound-moderator.  There would be no opportunity for a Boutflour or ex-EP to express their belief in guilt - any more than there would be an opportunity for Eric Allison to express his belief in innocence (as such personal opinions would not fall within the remit of the program).  The program would be evidence-based and could feature paperwork.  It could even explain the circs of the rejected CCRC referral and the US/UK tests.

The police and relatives would have as much opportunity as anybody else to contribute... but would be doing so at their own peril! 



 
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 02:11:PM by Roch »

Offline ngb1066

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6671
Re: *Unequivocal Proof Jeremy Bamber is innocent*
« Reply #65 on: March 20, 2018, 02:23:PM »
Neil, do you agree with the sentiment of my other post above?  If a new documentary focussed solely on the sound-moderator as an exhibit - it could effectively close-down the scope for any accusations of 'imbalance' towards the producers.  The reason for this is that the only information sought by program-makers from any contributor, would relate to sound-moderator.  There would be no opportunity for a Boutflour or ex-EP to express their belief in guilt - any more than there would be an opportunity for Eric Allison to express his belief in innocence (as such personal opinions would not fall within the remit of the program).  The program would be evidence-based and could feature paperwork.  It could even explain the circs of the rejected CCRC referral and the US/UK tests.

The police and relatives would have as much opportunity as anybody else to contribute... but would be doing so at their own peril!

A documentary based solely upon the sound moderator would be interesting, as it was one of the two key planks of the prosecution case.  If the evidence relating to the sound moderator is undermined the convictions are unsafe.  However, the second plank is the Jullie Mugford evidence.  Some of the additional material related to that, as does some of the undisclosed material held under PII.  A documentary on that could be as powerful as one on the silencer evidence in my view. 

 

Offline Roch

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17586
Re: *Unequivocal Proof Jeremy Bamber is innocent*
« Reply #66 on: March 20, 2018, 02:33:PM »
A documentary based solely upon the sound moderator would be interesting, as it was one of the two key planks of the prosecution case.  If the evidence relating to the sound moderator is undermined the convictions are unsafe.  However, the second plank is the Jullie Mugford evidence.  Some of the additional material related to that, as does some of the undisclosed material held under PII.  A documentary on that could be as powerful as one on the silencer evidence in my view.

A documentary based solely upon the sound moderator would be interesting, as it was one of the two key planks of the prosecution case.  If the evidence relating to the sound moderator is undermined the convictions are unsafe.  However, the second plank is the Jullie Mugford evidence.  Some of the additional material related to that, as does some of the undisclosed material held under PII.  A documentary on that could be as powerful as one on the silencer evidence in my view.

So basically, all we need is 60 mins  :)).

1st Quarter... JM
Ad Break.
2nd Quarter... JM
Ad Break
3rd Quarter... Sound-moderator
Ad Break
4th Quarter... Sound-moderator


Bob's your uncle! ::)
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 02:38:PM by Roch »

Offline ngb1066

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6671
Re: *Unequivocal Proof Jeremy Bamber is innocent*
« Reply #67 on: March 20, 2018, 02:41:PM »
So basically, all we need is 60 mins  :)).

1st Quarter... JM
Ad Break.
2nd Quarter... JM
Ad Break
3rd Quarter... Sound-moderator
Ad Break
4th Quarter... Sound-moderator


Bob's your uncle! ::)

It would be even better without the adverts!


Offline Roch

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17586
Re: *Unequivocal Proof Jeremy Bamber is innocent*
« Reply #68 on: March 20, 2018, 03:06:PM »
It would be even better without the adverts!

Yes, I was trying to be a realist regarding how TV channels work.   

But Neil.. if the likes of me and you can work this out between us... how has the full machinary that has been behind JB not managed to get something 'of this ilk' off the ground in the last five years?  It's not like there's no sympathy for his cause! 

You would only have to base the program around these two aspects in order to score a direct hit!   If the relatives and Essex Constabulary were cooperative enough to provide opinions that were relevant to the remit of the program, then you include that input in the program.  If they are non-cooperative or uncommunicative, then you simply, repeatedly advertise the fact that they have been invited to take part but have declined to do so. 

This case is so frustrating.  The decyaing prosecution case is just waiting to be knocked-down but the means to achieve this is being kept beyond reach.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 03:55:PM by Roch »

Offline ngb1066

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6671
Re: *Unequivocal Proof Jeremy Bamber is innocent*
« Reply #69 on: March 20, 2018, 04:53:PM »
Yes, I was trying to be a realist regarding how TV channels work.   

But Neil.. if the likes of me and you can work this out between us... how has the full machinary that has been behind JB not managed to get something 'of this ilk' off the ground in the last five years?  It's not like there's no sympathy for his cause! 

You would only have to base the program around these two aspects in order to score a direct hit!   If the relatives and Essex Constabulary were cooperative enough to provide opinions that were relevant to the remit of the program, then you include that input in the program.  If they are non-cooperative or uncommunicative, then you simply, repeatedly advertise the fact that they have been invited to take part but have declined to do so. 

This case is so frustrating.  The decyaing prosecution case is just waiting to be knocked-down but the means to achieve this is being kept beyond reach.

One of the problems of the case has been the fact that the efforts to secure a fresh appeal for JB have been reliant on a fairly transient group of volunteers, some legally qualified and some not.  The legal team has been changed several times. This has not always been consistent or coordinated and sometimes avenues have been pursued but not seen through to their conclusion.  Internal politics has been a factor unfortunately.  I am always careful what I say about this publicly, but I do have views on various aspects and I have expressed my concerns about defence focus and efforts in the past, including directly to JB.  Things may have changed recently.  We will see. 

Offline Steve_uk

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 21102
Re: *Unequivocal Proof Jeremy Bamber is innocent*
« Reply #70 on: March 20, 2018, 10:19:PM »
One of the problems of the case has been the fact that the efforts to secure a fresh appeal for JB have been reliant on a fairly transient group of volunteers, some legally qualified and some not.  The legal team has been changed several times. This has not always been consistent or coordinated and sometimes avenues have been pursued but not seen through to their conclusion.  Internal politics has been a factor unfortunately.  I am always careful what I say about this publicly, but I do have views on various aspects and I have expressed my concerns about defence focus and efforts in the past, including directly to JB.  Things may have changed recently.  We will see.
To what extent would you cast opprobrium on yourself for not at times being as tenacious as you might  have been in defending a child murderer..

Offline Harry

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 217
Re: *Unequivocal Proof Jeremy Bamber is innocent*
« Reply #71 on: March 21, 2018, 01:34:AM »
Yes, I was trying to be a realist regarding how TV channels work.   

But Neil.. if the likes of me and you can work this out between us... how has the full machinary that has been behind JB not managed to get something 'of this ilk' off the ground in the last five years?  It's not like there's no sympathy for his cause! 

You would only have to base the program around these two aspects in order to score a direct hit!   If the relatives and Essex Constabulary were cooperative enough to provide opinions that were relevant to the remit of the program, then you include that input in the program.  If they are non-cooperative or uncommunicative, then you simply, repeatedly advertise the fact that they have been invited to take part but have declined to do so. 

This case is so frustrating.  The decyaing prosecution case is just waiting to be knocked-down but the means to achieve this is being kept beyond reach.

A possible reason for not even trying to expose the conspiracy is that the allegations which the evidence clearly gives support to are of conduct on the part of the police and the relatives which is so appalling that such accusations would invite ridicule and a routinely dismissive attitude towards conspiracy theories. Bamber's lawyers seem to have adapted to the political reality of the case.

Some naive supporters still think that the relatives faked the silencer evidence and managed to fool the police.
The truth is that prosecution witnesses were given instructions by the police. Speaking dismissively of conspiracy theories doesn't change the evidence.

Suppose Bamber's lawyers have figured out that the relatives did not really find the silencer on August 10th. Suppose they know quite well that the police found it on the day of the killings and that the reports of finding it were retracted with the purpose creating the fiction that the relatives found it? They still might prefer to avoid making such allegations even when they have proof because of all the ramifications.

The above was the main substance of the Allegation document in which it is claimed that the police and not the relatives found the silencer and that the police told the relatives to say that they had found it. It appears now that Bamber's lawyers don't want to try to expose the conspiracy, possibly through fear of being dismissed as cranks.

Here is a summary of the contents of the allegation document.

http://jeremybamber.tumblr.com/post/1071015626/the-case-of-jeremy-bamber-condensed-from-jeremy


"Documental evidence has emerged revealing that after Essex Police seized a sound moderator SBJ/1 from White House Farm shortly after the crime took place and before the 9th August 1985, a second sound moderator was found at White House Farm on the 11th September 1985, given to Essex Police and submitted for forensic examination.  A conspiracy was then entered into by DI Ron Cook, DS Stan Jones, Ann Eaton, David Boutflour and Forensic Scientist Malcolm Fletcher to deceive the prosecuting authorities, the Defence and the Courts by amalgamating evidence from these two sound moderators making it appear that there was only ever one sound moderator in this case.

Both David Boutflour and Ann Eaton stated that the Police were told about their discovery of the red paint on a sound moderator at White House Farm on the 10th and 12th August 1985 (Doc P20 and Doc P5).  Robert Boutflour’s notes (Doc P4) reaffirm this.  A further entry in Robert Boutflour’s notes for the12th August 1985 also states “Went to Maldon Police, they rang Witham Police and arranged for meeting about silencer, collected from Oak Farm later that evening”.

However, had Ann Eaton telephoned Essex Police on the 10th and 12th August 1985 regarding the finding of a sound moderator there would be a police telephone message report saying so, and there is not.  Nor is there a police record of the aforementioned meeting.  This is because the sound moderator was not found by Ann, David and Robert until the 11th September 1985.  This is evident in Document P31 a phone message log dated the 11th September 1985 stating that “David Boutflour has found a silencer”.  Document P35 Action report 88: “Collection of silencer AE (Ann Eaton) 11th September to Wright items obtained by DC Oakey”.

These references make it quite clear that the sound moderator was found on the 11th September 1985 and not the 10th August 1985 as stated in Court.  The original finding of the first sound moderator SJB/1 was then concealed to give the impression that only one sound moderator was ever found, on the 10th August 1985.  Document P7 DI Cook appears to have swapped the forensic reference number from SBJ/1 to DB/1 and finally to DRB/1 in order to confuse the identity of the first sound moderator with the other: being the same make and model this was easy for the police to do."
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 03:27:AM by Harry »

Offline Harry

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 217
Re: *Unequivocal Proof Jeremy Bamber is innocent*
« Reply #72 on: March 21, 2018, 01:53:AM »
It is, in fact, possible to prove that the silencer evidence was fabricated. The police are known to have found it on August 7th. That is a proven fact. So it's also a proven fact that the relatives did not find it on August 10th. The only rational way to explain the false witness statements of the relatives concerning the finding of the silencer is to maintain that the police told them to lie. It's no use just asking repeatedly "Why should the police want to frame Bamber?"

It's possible to figure out their motives. The basic idea is that the police had given the relatives
information concerning the crime scene which was inconsistent with the crime scene photographs. ACC Peter Simpson knew that the relatives could expose police wrongdoing, so in response to Robert Boutflour's complaints, he made the decision to keep them on board and give them what they wanted, namely changing the course of the investigation so that Bamber became the prime suspect.

The decision to fabricate the silencer evidence was taken after Julie Mugford came forward. Mugford lied out of fear. The relatives lied out of greed. But the important thing to understand is that the police were calling all the shots and telling those people what to say in their statements.

The police eventually retracted reports of finding a silencer for an obvious reason. If they already had it in their possession, the relatives could not have found it afterwards, unless the police had returned it to them in the meantime.

It appears that the police had considered two ways of getting round the problem. They could say that reports of finding a silencer had been mistaken, or they could say that the silencer they found had  been returned "covertly" in time for David Boutflour to find it on August 10th. The latter somewhat ridiculous alternative probably explains the fake documentation which Mike Tesko has posted.

It would also explain Anthony Pargeter's statement in which he says that Boutflour had told him in a phone call that the police had "returned" the silencer to the relatives. But the police eventually settled for a simple retraction.  But we know they did find it.

The police set up the finding of another identical silencer by David Boutflour in September with the intention of messing around with the documentation to make it appear that Boutflour had found a silencer on August10 and that the relatives had handed it in to the police straight after. But that never happened. 

One telling detail in particular points to the deception. The fact that Glynis Howard did not report finding any paint on the silencer (which the police had sent to the laboratory on August 13th) gives it away that at that stage no paint was on it. Yet David Boutflour states in his evidence that he noticed the paint on the silencer he allegedly found before Glynis Howard had examined it.

Of course we know now that the silencer at that stage had no paint on it and that it was the police who later scratched the aga with the second silencer. The police must have told told the relatives to say that they were the ones who first noticed the scratches.

Reading between the lines, they told Robert Boutflour to say in a statement that DS Jones had asked "What silencer?" when Boutflour allegedly told Jones the relatives had found a silencer. A crude way of implying that the police first found out about the silencer from the relatives. 

This case is really just ridiculous. My guess is that Bamber's lawyers have decided to withdraw from making these allegations because they are of such an extraordinary nature. They think that the powers that be will simply refuse to listen. But if allegations can be proven, so that the truth becomes obvious to people with average intelligence, the refusal will be seen as dishonest and the deception will be exposed in the media. Only then will Bamber have any chance at all.

The real trouble is that Bamber's pessimistic lawyers refuse even to try to expose the corruption involved and above all want to keep the case "in house".  They still want to push a naive view of the case where Julie Mugford lied as a "woman scorned" seeking revenge and that the relatives faked the silencer evidence and in effect managed to fool the police. Mugford fooled the police and the relatives fooled the police. Hopeless!
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 03:31:AM by Harry »

Offline David1819

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 13782
Re: *Unequivocal Proof Jeremy Bamber is innocent*
« Reply #73 on: March 21, 2018, 06:59:AM »
Some naive supporters still think that the relatives faked the silencer evidence and managed to fool the police.

And some naive supporters still think Nevill rang the police.

The truth is that prosecution witnesses were given instructions by the police. Speaking dismissively of conspiracy theories doesn't change the evidence.

There is no evidence to support this.

Relatives had the blood and the silencer in their possession. Relatives pointed out the scratch marks. Relatives came up with the window entry exit. The only cop involved was S Jones.

Essex police only began to cover up after the guilty verdict to avoid the embarrassment.

Offline ngb1066

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6671
Re: *Unequivocal Proof Jeremy Bamber is innocent*
« Reply #74 on: March 21, 2018, 11:05:AM »
To what extent would you cast opprobrium on yourself for not at times being as tenacious as you might  have been in defending a child murderer..

What on earth is your point?