What makes Bamber innocent?

[John]

Yes, cops lied and falsified evidence, to cover up their own mistakes and misgivings. They made significant errors inside the farmhouse, and afterwards...

The police (at least some of them) were quite content to go along with Jeremy's story in the beginning which was when your great conspiracy was supposed to have taken place.  They then changed their mind when the evidence began to reveal a very different state of affairs.  By that point of course everything was documented and recorded already so your claim that a conspiracy took place from day one is frankly nonsense.

[mike tesko]

Yes he did, he forgot who he called first very early on.

No, he didn't that was 'dodgy Stan' Jones trying to truck J into saying something that couldn't be true. But dodgy 'Stan' did not know that J had attempted to call Witham  police station that morning but got no response, and how he had then called Julie, and afterwards how he called Chelmsford police station and spoken to PC West. Whatever J said was true, because despite what 'Stan' was trying to do, J had called cops, before, and after, he called Julie Mugford at 3.30am...

[Caroline]

Yes, cops lied and falsified evidence, to cover up their own mistakes and misgivings. They made significant errors inside the farmhouse, and afterwards...

No one is denying that they made mistakes Mike but the kind of conspiracy being promoted would be of such size and magnitude that it would be impossible to keep secret and for what? To frame Jeremy Bamber when they already had a suspect that couldn't deny she was responsible because she was dead? It doesn't make any sense - they would have stuck to Sheila being the killer. However, the conspiracy also involves police officers hiding things before the bodies were even discovered. The ONLY reason why West wouldn't have told Jeremy that Nevill called the police is because Nevill didn't call.

[mike tesko]

The police (at least some of them) were quite content to go along with Jeremy's story in the beginning which was when your great conspiracy was supposed to have taken place.  They then changed their mind when the evidence began to reveal a very different state of affairs.  By then of course everything was documented and recorded already so your claim that a conspiracy took place from day one is nonsense.

Stop talking nonsense, J had no input in the fact that cops found two bodies in the kitchen upon entry. J had no input whatsoever in the fact that cops reported the presence of a female body in the kitchen, after they themselves had already reported the presence of dads body in the kitchen also? You are nuts to even be suggesting that J had control of cops inside the farmhouse, outside the farmhouse, and anywhere else. Cops do not get controlled by criminals, least of all someone of J's character, and intelligence back in August 1985...

[mike tesko]

No one is denying that they made mistakes Mike but the kind of conspiracy being promoted would be of such size and magnitude that it would be impossible to keep secret and for what? To frame Jeremy Bamber when they already had a suspect that couldn't deny she was responsible because she was dead? It doesn't make any sense - they would have stuck to Sheila being the killer. However, the conspiracy also involves police officers hiding things before the bodies were even discovered. The ONLY reason why West wouldn't have told Jeremy that Nevill called the police is because Nevill didn't call.

Hillsboro'...

[mike tesko]

Dad did call police, its recorded in the phone message log timed, 3.26am, a log which cops and prosecution failed to disclose to the defence, the court, and the jury, because its contents contradicted their argument that if Sheila had gone crazy, that dad would have called cops, not Jeremy...

[Caroline]

Hillsboro'...

There is no comparison but the conspiracy promoted here is even bigger and far more complicated. You have police officers tryi g to frame Jeremy even before there was a crime to frame him into. You have police ditching a ready made suspect JUST so that they can frame Jeremy - introducing all manner of twist and turns to complicate matters making it ever unlikely that they wouldn't be rumbled. The truth came out for the victims of Hillsborough - the truth is already out for the victims of Jeremy Bamber.

[Steve_uk]

There is no comparison but the conspiracy promoted here is even bigger and far more complicated. You have police officers tryi g to frame Jeremy even before there was a crime to frame him into. You have police ditching a ready made suspect JUST so that they can frame Jeremy - introducing all manner of twist and turns to complicate matters making it ever unlikely that they wouldn't be rumbled. The truth came out for the victims of Hillsborough - the truth is already out for the victims of Jeremy Bamber.

That's very well-written Caroline. I am no expert on firearms but wouldn't it be incredibly difficult for someone to shoot Sheila by accident, especially as that particular gun was stiff, as corroborated in the courtroom at trial.

[Caroline]

That's very well-written Caroline. I am no expert on firearms but wouldn't it be incredibly difficult for someone to shoot Sheila by accident, especially as that particular gun was stiff, as corroborated in the courtroom at trial.

Thanks you Steve .

Not only difficult but someone would have been VERY unlucky for there to have been one bullet left in the rifle or did they shoot her twice? I get lost off in the confusion

[Steve_uk]

Thanks you Steve .

Not only difficult but someone would have been VERY unlucky for there to have been one bullet left in the rifle or did they shoot her twice? I get lost off in the confusion

Apparently there were no bullets left in the Anschutz after the attack(whoever you think of as the murderer)but Mike has introduced a second gun into the matter.

[Caroline]

Apparently there were no bullets left in the Anschutz after the attack(whoever you think of as the murderer)but Mike has introduced a second gun into the matter.

Ah yes, two guns, four silencers (or was it five?) - like I said, it gets confusing .

[mike tesko]

This was denied by Police.

It was not for cops to deny, since the call J tried to make to Witham police station was never answered. So cops can deny all they want to that J had done that. J told cops from a very early stage that he had tried calling Witham  but had no response, so eventually after calling Julie, he looked up the telephone number for Chelmsford police station in the phone book.if J had called Chelmsford before trying to call Witham police station now that would have caught my attention. Witham  police station was a lot closer to whf than Chelmsford.

Mike you're asking us to believe:

1) Dozens of Police lied that morning in an attempt to cover up their shooting of Sheila in error.

Refer Hillsboro'...

2) Jeremy received a telephone call from his father asking him to come to the Farm in the middle of the night because Sheila had run amok with a gun.

The message recited to J by dad did not explicitly state that Sheila had shot anyone by that stage, only that she had got 'the gun' and was going crazy. J never got chance to have any input into that 3.25am call...

3) Nevill telephoned Police to summon help, but again Police are concealing this information.

Refer Hillsboro' scenario...

4) Relatives took possession of the Farm post-murders, used a dropper to impregnate a silencer with Sheila's blood, hid it in the den and scratched the kitchen mantelpiece.

The integrity of the silencer, the blood in it, the paint upon it, you make up your own mind whether you think it is all legitimate evidence, untampered with?

5) Jeremy loved his parents and had no plans to do away with them: Julie's testimony is therefore pure fabrication.

you might be surprised to learn that there are many of examples in the history of crime, where best mates, boyfriends and girlfriends, husbands and wives, and so on and so forth, are prepared to tell deliberate lies to get revenge in one form or another. How come Julie never knew about the use of a silencer? And, why doesn't she think it suspicious that when she identified Sheila's body at the hospital mortuary, Sheila only appeared to have got a single bullet wound to her throat, although she must surely know by this stage that she had been shot twice?

6) That 30 years have passed without one informant having the decency to come forward and exculpate Jeremy in 1-5.

Oh, but they have...

[mike tesko]

There is no comparison but the conspiracy promoted here is even bigger and far more complicated. You have police officers tryi g to frame Jeremy even before there was a crime to frame him into. You have police ditching a ready made suspect JUST so that they can frame Jeremy - introducing all manner of twist and turns to complicate matters making it ever unlikely that they wouldn't be rumbled. The truth came out for the victims of Hillsborough - the truth is already out for the victims of Jeremy Bamber.

But the 'conspiracy of Hillsboro' was immense, not only involving cops themselves, but home secretaries and a Prime Minister, and a Coroners court, the cover up went right through the system from bottom to top, the right honorable gentleman this, and the right honorable gentleman that. The bottom line in the Bamber case, is that when the shit started to hit the fan, with relatives poking their noses into cop affairs helped by PC Robert Carr (Bobbie), cops found themselves in the myre because 'they had tampered with the crime scene', and 'they had moved the bodies of the adult victims about, using them like props in a stage production', and eventually it was 'the cops who staged Sheila's death scene in the bedroom'. The solution was for the cops to 'take the path of least resistance', in the situation they suddenly found themselves in. Relatives were 'baying' for Jeremy's blood, and cops jumped merrily onto the bandwagon. Nothing complicated about any of it. It was a question of switching the responsibility for staging Sheila's body, onto Jeremy's shoulders. Now which part don't you understand?

[mike tesko]

Ah yes, two guns, four silencers (or was it five?) - like I said, it gets confusing .

Don't blame J for that, or me, look no further than the end of your own nose, and ask yourself why there would be so many different exhibit references for one silencer? Let's look at the different exhibit references this 'solitary' silencer is referred to or mentioned in one form or another:-

SBJ/1
SJ/1
DB/1
DRB/1

Don't hit me with the crap about 'conflicting' exhibit references, so cops had to change it - what change it so many times? The jury didn't get to hear any of this nonsense, to them the silencer had always been exhibit DRB/1, lab' item 22. Which brings me nicely onto the lab' item number this so called silencer was given. First it was 22, then it became 23, and eventually by the time the matter came to court it was 22 again. There's nothing complicated about what cops have done, its simplistic. Its just that people on your side of the fence in matters like this, try to make out than in order for the silencer evidence to be dodgy, it involves some sort of a sophisticated conspiracy. Basically put it was a simple case of cops merging however many silencers were involved into one, when careful study of the facts reveals that it couldn't have been just a solitary silencer - nothing complicated about that argument. As for there being at least two different guns used in the shootings, explain to me how and with what gun Sheila is supposed to have committed suicide downstairs in the kitchen, considering the anshuzt rifle was upstairs resting against the bedroom window when cops entered the kitchen? Neither J nor me, nor anybody else who feels that these convictions are unsafe contributed to the contents of the police message logs, and a basic analysis of the contents tell the true story of whereabouts in the farmhouse the five bodies were found between 7.37 and 8.10am. Sheila was the female in the kitchen, but she did not die there, she eventually died upstairs 'unarmed'. That rifle at the bedroom window had not fired the shot across Sheila's neck downstairs in the kitchen. There is nothing complex or confusing about the fact that bullet fragment (PV/20) was replaced by a whole test fired bullet, so that the ballistic expert, Fletcher, could confirm that it had been loaded into the magazine of the anshuzt rifle, it had been fired, and ejected from it, because it had, but not at the time of the shootings. Again, a relatively simple explanation, not a complex one...

[mike tesko]

That's very well-written Caroline. I am no expert on firearms but wouldn't it be incredibly difficult for someone to shoot Sheila by accident, especially as that particular gun was stiff, as corroborated in the courtroom at trial.

How did the anshuzt rifle get onto Sheila's body from its original position at the bedroom window from 7.15am, onward, that's the question which cops need to be answering, no matter how stiff or easy it was to activate the trigger. Also bear in mind, that Sheila's death downstairs in the kitchen was being referred to as a suicide, by 7.45am, and then much later (after 8.10am) when her body ends up dead upstairs in the bedroom, her death is described as a suicide again once the investigation gets underway? How can Sheila have committed suicide twice, once downstairs in the kitchen, and a second time upstairs in the bedroom? This brings me on to how the home secretary at the time, hit the tabloid headlines with ' How did he fool you'? Thing is, he didn't try to fool anybody. How can J have 'fooled cops' into reporting his sisters death downstairs in the kitchen as a suicide by 7.45am, and then later the investigation into her death upstairs be pursued as another suicide? Which part don't you understand?