Author Topic: Anglolawyer's theory  (Read 20488 times)

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Offline lookout

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Re: Anglolawyer's theory
« Reply #135 on: November 06, 2015, 06:40:PM »
 Julie wasn't altogether truthful in her testimony but she won't say anything about it despite a request.
I suppose silence is golden.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Anglolawyer's theory
« Reply #136 on: November 06, 2015, 06:44:PM »

Who's this Adam person?  :)) Ooops, VERY remiss of me to be so unclear. What I meant was, it had been a call that she was expecting AT SOME TIME and when it happened, it wouldn't be a surprise. I think he'd told her enough to start a niggle which which she found increasingly difficult to ignore......................but there were the potential benefits to think about, too.

If he told her that he was going to fake a call from Nevill saying Sheila had the gun and was going crazy and would call her to pretend he was upset by such call and would need her to lie and say he told me he received a call from Nevill saying Sheila had the gun and was going crazy and sounded upset then everything would have been well planned and went like this:

She would have said he called me sounding very distraught saying Nevill phoned saying Sheila was crazy and had the gun, and that he had called police and was worried about what had happened. 

It's obvious they didn't plan it out.  Had they planned it out he would have prearranged the above strong account. 

Part of why both their accounts reveal he called her before the police is he failed to tell her about his call to police and what he told them.  Nor did he think of telling her the lie he had already called police or telling her to say he told her he called police first. After he spoke to her is when he thought up verbatim what to tell the police.  I think that is why there was the gap between when he called her and police.  he was trying to work out what he would say to them. 

What he should have done was really call police first then call Julie to tell her what he told the police and what they told him.  He didn't anticipate they would tell him to go to the scene.  This only highlights even more that he called Julie first.

Here is how a conversation would go if he called Julie after police:

A) If they prearranged things: The plan is going well they are all dead and I phoned police saying Nevill called me like we discussed. They want me to go meet them at WHF so I will be out for a while and will call later with more information.

B) If nothing were prearranged and he felt it best to pretend he really did receive a call so that she would be most natural with the police: I received a call from Nevill saying I need you to come here and help because Sheila has the gun and is going crazy then the line went dead and I can't get through to the house because the line is busy. I phoned police and they told me to meet them at WHF so I am going there now. I will call you later to let you know what happened.   

His failure to mention the police and going there is a dead giveaway that he didn't call her after police.  This is one of several reasons why it was stupid to lie and say he called her after the police.

But what he did mention was a mix of pretending he really received a call and telling her he had not gone to sleep yet and the plan was going well. Nothing suggests the call was prearranged in the sense of her understanding he was going to use a call to her to help try to bolster his alibi.  She didn't fully appreciate what he was talking about regarding receiving a call from WHF let alone did they talk about him calling her so she could pretend he was worried about receiving such call.
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Offline Jane

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Re: Anglolawyer's theory
« Reply #137 on: November 06, 2015, 06:47:PM »
The legal issue is very simple.  You are trying to cast Julie not telling police everything incriminating that Jeremy told to her - which is an omission of evidence- as the basis of a charge for "impeding an investigation".  You can't find a single example of an indictment for any crimes that cover impeding an investigation on such legal theory because there are none.  In order for a lie to suffice as an act intended to interfere with an investigation the government must prove it was a lie- not an omission of evidence but an actual lie that created a false impression that was meant to mislead.

An eyewitness to a crime falsely saying they saw nothing is one thing.  An eyewitness lying about what they saw to give a false impression that something different occurred than what actually occurred is a totally different matter. The former can't be a basis for an "obstruction" charge because the the law doesn't impose the legal liability to tell everything you know or face charges for obstruction.  The latter does impose liability because you are actively misleading police as opposed to simply not providing them with all information you have.

What you are doing is trying to take Julie's false claims that she knew nothing and say that is a basis for an obstruction charge though it is insufficient to form a basis for the charge under case law and that is why you can't find an example of such.


Scipio, I know that you tend to deal ONLY in facts but I feel certain, that on occasions, you've told us what Jeremy has been thinking and the reasons he was thinking particular thoughts, and the things he's said and why he's said them. However, I don't recall, regarding Julie, that you've ever questioned  much that she's said, rather, you seem to have excused it, even dealt with it on what would appear to be, a more emotional level?
 

Offline Jane

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Re: Anglolawyer's theory
« Reply #138 on: November 06, 2015, 07:02:PM »
If he told her that he was going to fake a call from Nevill saying Sheila had the gun and was going crazy and would call her to pretend he was upset by such call and would need her to lie and say he told me he received a call from Nevill saying Sheila had the gun and was going crazy and sounded upset then everything would have been well planned and went like this:

She would have said he called me sounding very distraught saying Nevill phoned saying Sheila was crazy and had the gun, and that he had called police and was worried about what had happened. 

It's obvious they didn't plan it out.  Had they planned it out he would have prearranged the above strong account. 

Part of why both their accounts reveal he called her before the police is he failed to tell her about his call to police and what he told them.  Nor did he think of telling her the lie he had already called police or telling her to say he told her he called police first. After he spoke to her is when he thought up verbatim what to tell the police.  I think that is why there was the gap between when he called her and police.  he was trying to work out what he would say to them. 

What he should have done was really call police first then call Julie to tell her what he told the police and what they told him.  He didn't anticipate they would tell him to go to the scene.  This only highlights even more that he called Julie first.

Here is how a conversation would go if he called Julie after police:

A) If they prearranged things: The plan is going well they are all dead and I phoned police saying Nevill called me like we discussed. They want me to go meet them at WHF so I will be out for a while and will call later with more information.

B) If nothing were prearranged and he felt it best to pretend he really did receive a call so that she would be most natural with the police: I received a call from Nevill saying I need you to come here and help because Sheila has the gun and is going crazy then the line went dead and I can't get through to the house because the line is busy. I phoned police and they told me to meet them at WHF so I am going there now. I will call you later to let you know what happened.   

His failure to mention the police and going there is a dead giveaway that he didn't call her after police.  This is one of several reasons why it was stupid to lie and say he called her after the police.

But what he did mention was a mix of pretending he really received a call and telling her he had not gone to sleep yet and the plan was going well. Nothing suggests the call was prearranged in the sense of her understanding he was going to use a call to her to help try to bolster his alibi.  She didn't fully appreciate what he was talking about regarding receiving a call from WHF let alone did they talk about him calling her so she could pretend he was worried about receiving such call.

I think that there's MUCH that you are seeing through your eyes. YOU may have planned it much more carefully but Jeremy wasn't you. When you tell us "Jeremy wouldn't/would.........." you may well be saying what YOU wouldn't/would.

He wouldn't have needed to go into minute detail. Julie already knew that he'd planned to include a call from WHF in his alibi scenario. He had already discussed doping them with (HER) sleeping pills before setting fire to the house.

However well you reason on her behalf, you will never convince me that that she wasn't aware that a call, such as she received that night, was coming. It may EVEN have come, along with other emotions, as a relief.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Anglolawyer's theory
« Reply #139 on: November 06, 2015, 07:19:PM »
We're not having a 'lawyer stand-off' are we? To be fair Scip, you're not a criminal lawyer either.

I don't practice criminal law for my firm.  I have handled criminal cases though in the past.  Some were drug related but most were while I was in the military.  The UCMJ is a different set of laws than the civil criminal code but the same big picture legal principles are applied. 

We have 51 legal codes.  Each state has their own code with slightly different laws and then there is the federal code.  With the exception of Louisiana the basis of state law is British Common Law and then any amendments made by the states thereafter by their Constitutions or statutes.  The US Constitution and Federal Code is the basis of federal law.  The UCMJ is simply part of the federal code and has a Court system equivalent to the civil courts.     

A lawyer who tells a client that because he omitted information he was aware of that he should plead guilty to perverting justice or some similar offense is arguably committing malpractice. 

There is a legal distinction between:

A) telling police you know nothing when you actually do

and

B) providing misinformation to police with the intent that they follow such misinformation and it impedes their investigation.

As a matter of law the former can't be a basis for a charge of obstruction while the latter as a matter of law is a recognized legal basis for liability.

There are only 2 ways for this to change:

1) passing legislation that expressly expands the reach of the crimes to encompass not telling police incriminating things you know

or

2) judges to decide to reinterpret existing law as encompassing such.

Unless/until one of these things happens a lawyer would be remiss to tell a client they should plead guilty to obstruction for not telling police everything they know.

In the examples I provided the government would need to prove Bob knew he was lying about the color of the car, gender of the offender etc because an honest mistake would defeat liability but I provided a fact pattern where he intentionally lied he didn't make an honest mistake.  I made things quite clear cut in order to illustrate the legal concept.

Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Anglolawyer's theory
« Reply #140 on: November 06, 2015, 07:25:PM »
I'll go this far with the Bamber-is-innocent brigade:had the Prosecution had an open and shut case they would not have felt the need to court Julie as they did.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2015, 07:26:PM by Steve_uk »

Offline notsure

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Re: Anglolawyer's theory
« Reply #141 on: November 06, 2015, 07:39:PM »
I agree with you on this point caroline,  anyone recieving a call in the middle of the night would be immediately concerned . To say just go back to bed doesnt do it for me. She would have said whats wrong jeremy, whats happened. He would have explained and she would have been up all night worrying about it.

someone is not telling the truth regarding this call.or both of them are.

Offline lookout

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Re: Anglolawyer's theory
« Reply #142 on: November 06, 2015, 07:46:PM »
I'll go this far with the Bamber-is-innocent brigade:had the Prosecution had an open and shut case they would not have felt the need to court Julie as they did.






Indeed,Steve.

Offline Caroline

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Re: Anglolawyer's theory
« Reply #143 on: November 06, 2015, 07:51:PM »
I agree with you on this point caroline,  anyone recieving a call in the middle of the night would be immediately concerned . To say just go back to bed doesnt do it for me. She would have said whats wrong jeremy, whats happened. He would have explained and she would have been up all night worrying about it.

someone is not telling the truth regarding this call.or both of them are.

I believe both of them are lying.
Few people have the imagination for reality

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Anglolawyer's theory
« Reply #144 on: November 06, 2015, 08:11:PM »

Scipio, I know that you tend to deal ONLY in facts but I feel certain, that on occasions, you've told us what Jeremy has been thinking and the reasons he was thinking particular thoughts, and the things he's said and why he's said them. However, I don't recall, regarding Julie, that you've ever questioned  much that she's said, rather, you seem to have excused it, even dealt with it on what would appear to be, a more emotional level?

I have been highly critical of Julie. I have not excused anything.  I simply providing explanations of why she did things I didn't say such explanations excuses her behavior in a moral sense.  It is easy to understand why one who loves and would miss someone would not want to lose such person to jail.  It is also easy to understand how someone could close their eyes to red flags and choose to believe their loved one would not actually kill someone.  These things happen regularly.  How many people ignore warning signs before loved ones go on murdering rampages?  You even have people complain that their loved ones were shot and killed by police during the course of committing violent acts.  They just killed 5 people and then say police should have taken their loved ones alive...

Just because I acknowledge that is how numerous people think that doesn't mean I am justifying it as morally correct.   

The legal analysis I provided regarding her potential liability is very straightforward. 

1) she clearly didn't participate in carrying out the crime, she was home too far away to have participated even if she could have sneaked away without her roommates hearing she would not have gotten home in time to be called to the phone.

2) There is no evidence to establish she came up with the idea of committing the crime and enlisted Jeremy to carry it out or encouraged hi to do it- solicitation/conspiracy.

3) There is no evidence he enlisted her to assist in the planning and she did some overt act to assist him thus becoming a co-conspirator.

So there is nothing to support her being a principal.  He clearly didn't need her help to do anything.  Only testimony from Jeremy to some of these things could constitute evidence and then you would have to weigh his credibility among other things like if he can provide any corroboration. 

With respect to her being an accomplice after the fact there is nothing to suggest she helped him dispose of evidence that he hid or anything like that. 

If someone tells you they are planning a crime and you do nothing to stop it that doesn't make you part of a conspiracy.  When you agree to take part and commit an overt act in furtherance of it then you become part of it.  If you know but do nothing to stop it then you are morally bankrupt but not legally culpable. If you have some special legal duty like a child's guardian and do nothing to stop someone from abusing your child that is different because you have a special legal duty you owe but in general you have no such legal duty.

Julie omitting the incriminating things she knew doesn't constitute any criminal violation BUT if she spread disinformation in an effort to deceive police that is different.  Since she told police so little it provides very limited opportunity to provide disinformation.  The only disinformation she potentially could have provided pertains to the calls she received at 3am and 6am.  IF she knew he made up receiving a call from WHF either because they discussed it in the past or discussed it during those very phone calls and arranged for her to lie and pretend he told her he received a call and sounded upset then that would constitute providing disinformation because she told police something that didn't actually happen and it was meant to help give police a false impression.     

No evidence exists to establish this though.  There are only 2 ways to get evidence of such- Julie to admit it or Jeremy to claim it.  Unless she wrote down notes or he provided her with written instructions and police had found such the only way to get evidence of such would be to get one of them to assert it.

If she did spread disinformation and refused to confess the ONLY way police would be able to even try to pursue her would be if Jeremy rolled over on her.  So she would be motivated to protecting Jeremy so that he would not end up rolling on her.

This is why it is so difficult to flip criminals against one another.  The main time you have people flip is when they are going down for a different crime and for leniency they agree to rat someone else out or they are going down for that exact crime because solid evidence implicates them and either:

1) they decide they don't want to take the fall alone because they feel it will be unfair for their partner to get away unscathed

or

2) their partner did the worst things and you don't want to take the fall for those so admit to the lesser things you did and rat the person out for the more substantial things

or

3) you decide to lie and blame someone else for doing things you did and make up that your role was lesser than it actually was

Only when police have decent evidence do you most people flip though.  On occasion you get someone who confesses right away and implicates everyone else despite no evidence just because they can't hack lying during the interrogation but this is not the majority of the time.  It would be so nice if it were but most people want to see a camera with their image or DNA evidence or the like before they will consider admitting to anything and their lawyers will tell them not to admit a thing or say a word.  Their lawyers will advise them to force the government to make a case against them on its own.

Is that morally beneficial?  No, but legally that is what the system allows. No one can be legally compelled to give witness against themselves.   

Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Anglolawyer's theory
« Reply #145 on: November 06, 2015, 08:13:PM »
I'll go this far with the Bamber-is-innocent brigade:had the Prosecution had an open and shut case they would not have felt the need to court Julie as they did.

What courted Julie?

Someone notified them that Julie was withholding information and they questioned her as a result, that is standard procedure.

Upon questioning her they initially didn't believe her.  It took a while for them to decide to believe her.   
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Anglolawyer's theory
« Reply #146 on: November 06, 2015, 08:23:PM »
I think that there's MUCH that you are seeing through your eyes. YOU may have planned it much more carefully but Jeremy wasn't you. When you tell us "Jeremy wouldn't/would.........." you may well be saying what YOU wouldn't/would.

He wouldn't have needed to go into minute detail. Julie already knew that he'd planned to include a call from WHF in his alibi scenario. He had already discussed doping them with (HER) sleeping pills before setting fire to the house.

However well you reason on her behalf, you will never convince me that that she wasn't aware that a call, such as she received that night, was coming. It may EVEN have come, along with other emotions, as a relief.

What you choose to believe means little.

You can choose to believe she was lying when she said she thought he was just blowing off steam and not serious about killing them to your heart's content.  What matters is what can be proven not what you choose to believe.

No one can prove that she knew he was serious.

Similarly choosing to believe that she knew he was going to make up a phone call from Nevill and told her to help him falsely support receiving such call means little.  Proving it matters and there is no evidence to prove it.

If Julie had been actively involved then she would have no reason to try to help get Jeremy caught because if he was caught he could end up rolling over on her.  The whole reason she didn't mind telling the truth was because they broke up so him going to jail would not end up with them being apart they already were apart and him going to jail would not run the risk of him implicating her in anything serious.

Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Anglolawyer's theory
« Reply #147 on: November 06, 2015, 08:29:PM »
What courted Julie?

Someone notified them that Julie was withholding information and they questioned her as a result, that is standard procedure.

Upon questioning her they initially didn't believe her.  It took a while for them to decide to believe her.
Taff Jones didn't believe her but DS Jones felt she was telling the truth ever since he listened at the door and heard Jeremy chuckle.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Anglolawyer's theory
« Reply #148 on: November 06, 2015, 08:30:PM »
I agree with you on this point caroline,  anyone recieving a call in the middle of the night would be immediately concerned . To say just go back to bed doesnt do it for me. She would have said whats wrong jeremy, whats happened. He would have explained and she would have been up all night worrying about it.

someone is not telling the truth regarding this call.or both of them are.
She lay in bed after that call unable to resume slumber and rationalized he had just told her that he had murdered his family.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Anglolawyer's theory
« Reply #149 on: November 06, 2015, 08:31:PM »
Taff Jones didn't believe her but DS Jones felt she was telling the truth ever since he listened at the door and heard Jeremy chuckle.

None of them believed the hit man claims she was telling them.  DS Jones believed Jeremy did it personally.  It took quite a while before they believed they actually told her such things. 
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry