Innocent Jeremy or Incompetent doctors? Medical Document from 2010 appeal.

[David1819]

Below is a Document by Pathologists Dr Marco Meloni and Dr. Andrea Cavalli put together as part of Bambers 2010 appeal.

I obtained an image copy of this document, It was in Italian. I converted the photo into a word document then put it through google translate it seems to have translated everything fine.

Dr. MARCO M FLON 1 MD MEDICAL CI IIR URC I ODON
The OIATRA IMPLAND ology intraosseous
HRANFMARK MEDICINE CENTRE
the 01.1SPECIALISTICA 00197 Roma -
Viale Parioli, 40 'Fel. 06 / 80.76.177 - Fax 80 85 411 Cell. 0336/866574


                                             JEREMY BAMBER / PHOTO Shiela CAFFEL


It 'well known that bleeding, due to a wound provoked, depends substantially:
• The type of lesioned vessels (arteries-veins)
• By extension of the wound
• From 'heart activity upstream
• From the metabolic conditions of the' individual concerned at the time of the traumatic event

In this case, analyzing the photographs in our possession, we see three important elements:

1. modest amount of blood on the right lateral region of the neck, a situation which conflicts with the hypothesis of a blood spill started hours before. In this case, in fact, it would have to produce a 'soiling blood much more accentuated; in fact, it remembers that the offending was under police custody from about 03:00 am and that the discovery of the corpse photographed occurred at approximately 7:34 am, in any case, in fact, the photo was taken at hours 8:30 to 09:00 am.

2. leaking blood, sustained, that fact also by 'police officer around 07:34 am, describes the body that owns the photo examined by us.

3. number 4 holes apparently by the bullet, in the area of ??the neck (entry holes, holes for entry and exit, outlet holes?)

Given the modest amount of blood that can be seen from the pictures, you might assume that the arrest of cardiac likely occurred in a very short time after the traumatic event (bullet injury on the neck?)
Whereas there is an apparent drainage of fluid from the blood bullet holes (it also stated by police officer) and therefore do not have apparently completed the phenomena of coagulation that do occur in the post-mortem, it can be assumed, lacking other elements of judgment, such as:

• rigor mortis
• body temperature
• External hypostasis

that the time of death can be placed over a period of no more than 2 hours before the discovery of the body itself.

Even in the opinion of the coroner, Dr. Andrea Cavalli MD, I consulted about the case sottopostomi, evidence detectable from an examination of the photograph and testimony of the police officer, should make further investigation, that the subject of diagnosis of time of death, can not be independent from 'acquisition parameters chrono-thanatological then encountered (body temperature - hypostasis - rigor mortis), to be assessed in the light of the overall framework detrimental pathological.

Dott. Marco Meloni DOCTOR SURGEON DENTIST Via Riccardo Forster, 121 - ROME CF MLN MRC 49P02 H5OIN P: IVA00 / 1iigiegal

If anyone is interested in the Italian copy just let me know

[scipio_usmc]

It's a rather poor translation in my opinion.  A good translation will interpret the intended meaning as opposed to trying to just pick the closest English word for each Italian word.

What it ultimately asserts though is:

1) That a cop (Woodcock) said he saw her actively bleeding

2) The photos record there were blood flows that show her body moved while still actively bleeding

3) That the blood in the photos is still wet

That in combination these prove she was shot no more than 2 hours before police entered.

Their claims are crap which were rejected because:

1) Woodcock didn't claim the blood was actively bleeding he in fact agrees it was dry like the other police

2) The photos do not in fact show the blood to be wet at the time the photos were taken

3) Indeed her body was moved shortly after she was shot causing the blood flows to change but that was done by the killer.  Their claim that the photos and Woodcock establish the change in blood flows happened within a couple of hours of the photos being taken is patently false.

[David1819]

It's a rather poor translation in my opinion.  A good translation will interpret the intended meaning as opposed to trying to just pick the closest English word for each Italian word.

What it ultimately asserts though is:

1) That a cop (Woodcock) said he saw her actively bleeding

2) The photos record there were blood flows that show her body moved while still actively bleeding

3) That the blood in the photos is still wet

That in combination these prove she was shot no more than 2 hours before police entered.

Their claims are crap which were rejected because:

1) Woodcock didn't claim the blood was actively bleeding he in fact agrees it was dry like the other police

2) The photos do not in fact show the blood to be wet at the time the photos were taken

3) Indeed her body was moved shortly after she was shot causing the blood flows to change but that was done by the killer.  Their claim that the photos and Woodcock establish the change in blood flows happened within a couple of hours of the photos being taken is patently false.

There is no reason to believe Google translater is of poor quality. But more importantly How on earth did you criticise the quality of the translation when you have not even seen the origional authors document in order to make a comparison?    What an idiot

[Jan]

Scipio is the expert remember. He does not trust other "experts" and I am sure it not just about the leaking blood that the officer wrote about.

[notsure]

I dont buy that she had been dead for all those hours before those photos were taken. Dodgy

[scipio_usmc]

There is no reason to believe Google translater is of poor quality. But more importantly How on earth did you criticise the quality of the translation when you have not even seen the origional authors document in order to make a comparison?    What an idiot

Since their claims have been presented to the Courts in English I know what they argued. 

Since English is my native language and I know what was presented to the court I am able to see that the translation doesn't make much sense unless you read between the lines and doesn't fully explain what was argued. 

Since I am of Italian descent I decided to learn Italian though it has no real utility in the US. I am thus well aware of the difficulties involved in translating it. Translating word for word ends up with a poor translation. That is true with translating many languages of course. You have to change the grammar to make the translation sound right in the other language. That includes changing words around to coherent sentences and sometimes picking a different synonym or phrase that conveys the message more clearly than word for word.

[Steve_uk]

I dont buy that she had been dead for all those hours before those photos were taken. Dodgy

There was dry blood on the nightie as well. I don't know if Police moved her to perform CPR but they did move her hand as evidenced by the photos.

[scipio_usmc]

There was dry blood on the nightie as well. I don't know if Police moved her to perform CPR but they did move her hand as evidenced by the photos.

That much blood actually takes a long time to dry in full, especially on clothing. It dries more slowly on cloth.

[vidvic]

That much blood actually takes a long time to dry in full, especially on clothing. It dries more slowly on cloth.

The only reason the blood looks 'wet' is the use of a flash to make the copy of the photograph for the site. When it was realised that this gave this impression it was circulated to media etc to create publicity, which it succesfully achieved. The original shot looks quite different.

[scipio_usmc]

The only reason the blood looks 'wet' is the use of a flash to make the copy of the photograph for the site. When it was realised that this gave this impression it was circulated to media etc to create publicity, which it succesfully achieved. The original shot looks quite different.

The Italian doctors operated from the false position that police saw wet blood, the photos taken by police showed wet blood and therefore that police must have been the ones who shifted her body causing her blood flow to change.

Their claims have no more basis in fact than MacDonnell's claim that the murder weapon was found in another room. 

[nugnug]

The only reason the blood looks 'wet' is the use of a flash to make the copy of the photograph for the site. When it was realised that this gave this impression it was circulated to media etc to create publicity, which it succesfully achieved. The original shot looks quite different.

so wheres the orignal.

[Jan]

I don't think they are talking just about the blood appearing wet they are talking about the blood clotting and how it flowed out of the bullet holes . If you do want it translated I can get it done properly . No problem.

[scipio_usmc]

I don't think they are talking just about the blood appearing wet they are talking about the blood clotting and how it flowed out of the bullet holes . If you do want it translated I can get it done properly . No problem.

They CONCEDE that the blood flows establish that after she died her body was moved.  Those who say Jeremy is guilty use such as evidence that Sheila didn't kill herself.

They argue that police moved her.  They base their claims it was the police on the false premises that:

A) the photos show the blood still wet
B) police admitted the blood was still wet

They further argue the only way police could have seen wet blood and photographed wet blood is if she died no more than 2 hours before the police entered and they use this false premise to say Jeremy is innocent.

[vidvic]

The Italian doctors operated from the false position that police saw wet blood, the photos taken by police showed wet blood and therefore that police must have been the ones who shifted her body causing her blood flow to change.

Their claims have no more basis in fact than MacDonnell's claim that the murder weapon was found in another room.

Absolutely agree. And it also gives the impression that the defence will use whatever means, fair or foul, to create evidence, which in the case of this photo, never existed in the first place. Over the years, it is discussed and enters into accepted 'evidence' that Sheila died much later. The reality is the real picture in the albums which Bamber has and knows that the picture doesn't show what it is claimed.

[scipio_usmc]

Absolutely agree. And it also gives the impression that the defence will use whatever means, fair or foul, to create evidence, which in the case of this photo, never existed in the first place. Over the years, it is discussed and enters into accepted 'evidence' that Sheila died much later. The reality is the real picture in the albums which Bamber has and knows that the picture doesn't show what it is claimed.

Accepted by ignorant people or biased people who want to believe such but not by informed people who are objective and thus not by the courts which is what actually matters. Many suffer the delusion that if they stir up public opinion that will make courts act.