Police log contents, and position of bodies in photographs don't add up, CRIKEY.

[guest154]

Apparently, if you can think of an excuse that leans towards innocent, you can just make up the times etc. in favour of said excuse and completely IGNORE anything Jeremy said just after the murders. Even though memory for events is far stronger nearer the event than 30 years later! 

To me it sounds a little like "Jeremy can't be trusted to tell the truth, ignore Jeremy... THIS is what really happened."

 

[Jane]

To me it sounds a little like "Jeremy can't be trusted to tell the truth, ignore Jeremy... THIS is what really happened."

 

At the VERY least it sounds as if it's being said that he meant something totally different from how his words read.

[Caroline]

To me it sounds a little like "Jeremy can't be trusted to tell the truth, ignore Jeremy... THIS is what really happened."

 

They got that bit right then? 

[scipio_usmc]

You need to read the OS, Jeremy is now AGREEING that he called police at 03:36 in order to fit in a call from Nevill - he's not being misled at all. He denied calling at 03:36 back in 1985 but is NOW agreeing with it!! You're right, he did call Julie before 03:36, because he called Julie BEFORE calling the police.

This is exactly what is going on- around 2005 or so someone decided if Jeremy changed his testimony and insisted he called at 3:36 as West noted this would mean police were dispatched earlier than he called and this could be used to support the notion Nevill had called police himself.

Aside from being complete bunk, what Jeremy and his supporters fail to take into account is that he is stuck with his trial testimony.  That trial testimony constitutes the record.  He can't change his story and claim his changed story is new evidence. It is his problem that he didn't think up such a lie until 2005 and thus didn't testify to this lie at his trial.

The defense could have called Bonnett o the stand and questioned if he received a call from Nevill and the log reflected such but they knew based on his statements he would say the call he received was from West not Nevill which is confirmed by West and by all the police who responded to the scene all of whom were told they were responding as a result of Jeremy's call and that is why Jeremy was asked to go there- he was the complainant.

At trial the defense tried to minimize the gap in time between allegedly receiving the call and calling police because the longer the gap the worse it looks. Jeremy said at trial that he at first didn't appreciate what Nevill said but after phoning back and getting no response and then thinking about it a while he realized what was said so at that point got the phone book out to call police. They highlighted that the call to police was by 3:26 and could have been earlier because the time West gave of 3:36 looks quite bad that would be a 26 minute gap between receiving the call and finally phoning police.

People who advance this nonsense of a call from Nevill are so desperate to pretend Jeremy is innocent that they will assert anything even if they have to drastically revise things.

[Caroline]

This is exactly what is going on- around 2005 or so someone decided if Jeremy changed his testimony and insisted he called at 3:36 as West noted this would mean police were dispatched earlier than he called and this could be used to support the notion Nevill had called police himself.

Aside from being complete bunk, what Jeremy and his supporters fail to take into account is that he is stuck with his trial testimony.  That trial testimony constitutes the record.  He can't change his story and claim his changed story is new evidence. It is his problem that he didn't think up such a lie until 2005 and thus didn't testify to this lie at his trial.

The defense could have called Bonnett o the stand and questioned if he received a call from Nevill and the log reflected such but they knew based on his statements he would say the call he received was from West not Nevill which is confirmed by West and by all the police who responded to the scene all of whom were told they were responding as a result of Jeremy's call and that is why Jeremy was asked to go there- he was the complainant.

At trial the defense tried to minimize the gap in time between allegedly receiving the call and calling police because the longer the gap the worse it looks. Jeremy said at trial that he at first didn't appreciate what Nevill said but after phoning back and getting no response and then thinking about it a while he realized what was said so at that point got the phone book out to call police. They highlighted that the call to police was by 3:26 and could have been earlier because the time West gave of 3:36 looks quite bad that would be a 26 minute gap between receiving the call and finally phoning police.

People who advance this nonsense of a call from Nevill are so desperate to pretend Jeremy is innocent that they will assert anything even if they have to drastically revise things.

The revised times 'should' SCREAM guilty. If the revised timings are part of submissions Team Jeremy might as well kiss the whole thing goodbye because as you say, he can't take back what he argued at the trial and he was pretty adamant that he called 'before' 03:36.

[notsure]

Is there any evidence of the amount of time he was on the phone to police. Im sure there must be but i couldnt find it?

[scipio_usmc]

The revised times 'should' SCREAM guilty. If the revised timings are part of submissions Team Jeremy might as well kiss the whole thing goodbye because as you say, he can't take back what he argued at the trial and he was pretty adamant that he called 'before' 03:36.

The only way they could make a submission alleging a call from Nevill would be if they had a witness who claimed to receive a call from Nevill or witness who claimed they were told to report to WHF as a result of a call being received by Nevill.  That would constitute new evidence and would be evidence that could potentially be used to establish Nevill called police though such claims would be subject to a great deal of scrutiny so these witnesses would need to have very good stories and need to come up with some evidence or a very good reason as to why such evidence doesn't exist.

The logs are not new nor do the logs contain anything that suggests a call from nevill was received.  Claiming that because Bonnett decided to try to word it like Jeremy did when he spoke to West that proves he was speaking to Nevill is absurd. The log asserts he fielded a call from West and so does his statement. The allegation he altered it to conceal a call from Nevill doesn't amount to a hill of beans it is simply an unsupported allegation and one that the defense could and should have made at trial if they wanted to make it.   

That would have gone like this:

Q) Mr. Bonnett did you receive a call from Nevill on the night of the murders.

A) No

Q) are you sure?  Your log is written to reflect a quotation coming from Nevill thus suggesting you actually spoke to Nevill yourself. 

A) I wrote a quote of what Jeremy claimed to the police that Nevill had told him.  That is why I noted on my log message passed to CD by Bamber's son.   

Q) Are you positive you never spoke to Nevill? Your timing of the call is 10 minutes earlier than officer West indicated he received his call from Jeremy.

A) He either wrote the time his call with Jeremy Bamber ended, his clock was wrong or he mixed up the numbers as he wrote.  The only call I fielded was from Officer West and it was at 3:26 and the log was created to detail such call.

------

That is how it would have gone if he were called a witness at trial by the defense to try to assert Nevill called Bonnett.

[Caroline]

Is there any evidence of the amount of time he was on the phone to police. Im sure there must be but i couldnt find it?

It must have been around 12 minutes from the times given by Bonnett and West.

[scipio_usmc]

Is there any evidence of the amount of time he was on the phone to police. Im sure there must be but i couldnt find it?

Jeremy thought it was around 9 minutes or more, he thought he was on hold for 5 minutes plus.  I would have taken around 3 minutes for West to get all the information he got from Jeremy before placing him on hold. Then it would have taken several minutes for West to call Bonnett and explain everything to Bonnett who then had to write it all down which would take at least 2 minutes and then they contacted police units to tell them the situation and see who could be sent to WHF. Which would take at least a minute so Jeremy was on hold for at least 3 minutes and it could have been 5 like he thought.  He and West spoke for another minute or 2 after West got back on the line.  So a conservative figure is Jeremy was on the phone for 7 minutes including while on hold but it could well have lasted 10 minutes like he thought. 

   

[guest154]

The revised times 'should' SCREAM guilty. If the revised timings are part of submissions Team Jeremy might as well kiss the whole thing goodbye because as you say, he can't take back what he argued at the trial and he was pretty adamant that he called 'before' 03:36.

I doubt that they will be used in any submission, the revised times that is. It will be like the call log that the OS and some supporters still pretend is from Neville. They use it as propaganda and to make a headline but when it comes to actual serious submissions - it's left out. Wonder why? 

[notsure]

Thanks scipio. Could u give me a brief timeline line of how u see the calls taking place as im awfully confused

[Jane]

Jeremy thought it was around 9 minutes or more, he thought he was on hold for 5 minutes plus.  I would have taken around 3 minutes for West to get all the information he got from Jeremy before placing him on hold. Then it would have taken several minutes for West to call Bonnett and explain everything to Bonnett who then had to write it all down which would take at least 2 minutes and then they contacted police units to tell them the situation and see who could be sent to WHF. Which would take at least a minute so Jeremy was on hold for at least 3 minutes and it could have been 5 like he thought.  He and West spoke for another minute or 2 after West got back on the line.  So a conservative figure is Jeremy was on the phone for 7 minutes including while on hold but it could well have lasted 10 minutes like he thought. 

   

Which means he COULDN'T have made the call as late as 3.30 because he'd never have got dressed -assuming he wasn't already- and got out of the house, into the car, driven at a snail's pace, stopped to put on a sweater and got to WHF by 3.52.

[scipio_usmc]

Thanks scipio. Could u give me a brief timeline line of how u see the calls taking place as im awfully confused

Jeremy's call to Julie around 3AM

Jeremy's call to Witham around 3:20

Jeremy's call to Chelmsford (call to West) around 3:22

West's call to HQ Information Room 3:26


By the time Jeremy gave his statement many hours passed so he wasn't exactly sure of the time he called police.

He thought it was around 3:15 that he called West so he claimed he received Nevill's call at 3:10.  He figured his call to police lasted ten minutes so then placed his call to Julie 10 minutes after that at 3:25.

In his statement he was lying about 3 things:

1) made up a call from Nevill
2) made up that he called Julie after police instead of before
3) eliminated his call to Witham

His call to Witham is a double edged sword.  On one hand it helps because it actually helps eat up some of the time between when he claimed Nevill phoned him and when he called Chelmsford.  But it hurts because logically he should have called 999 after not getting an answer at Witham.  To look up more numbers to stations that might be unmanned denotes a complete lack of any sense of urgency.  So he dropped it in his statement and still dropped it during the trial.  It was the prosecution tha tbrought up his call to Witham.

If he had remembered that his call to police was around 3:22 then in his statement he would have claimed Nevill phoned a little after 3:15 and that he called Julie around 3:32.  But he incorrectly thought he called police around 3:15 hence in his statement he moved up everything earlier than he should have. 

At his trial he said he was not positive of the exact times of everything but stood by his order of fielding the call from Nevill, next calling police and finally calling Julie after getting off the phone with police.

He did change something at trial though.  He told police he immediately called police after being unable to call Nevill back. At trial he acknowledged some time passed. He said at first he didn't appreciate the seriousness of the situation.  He said after he woke up fully and it sunk in then he appreciated the threat level and decided to call police. This was his way of explaining away whatever the gap in time was between the time he supposedly received the call from Nevill and phoning police.

The prosecution said that gap was 26 minutes- that he called police at 3:36 based on West's account.  The prosecution effectively got West to narrow it to 16 minutes but could and should have narrowed it further.

I would have gotten West to admit that 3:26 was most likely the time of his call to Bonnett not the time of Jeremy's call to him and that means Jeremy's call had to have come earlier than 3:26.  Getting West to admit this would have narrowed to time to less than 16 minutes. Next you get Jeremy to say on the stand that he was simply estimating the call at 3:10 and all he knew was it was prior to 3:20 it could have been 3:15.  That helps narrow the call down to less than 10 minutes between when he spoke to police and Nevill called. This is much more manageable from a defense perspective.  They did this in theory but not in as clear or effective a fashion as I would have done.

Fast forward to 2005.  Someone looking over the evidence says you know what- if only Jeremy had called police at 3:36 this would have allowed us to argue that someone alerted police prior to Jeremy because records reflect a call being received at 3:26 and police being dispatched prior to 3:36.  We could allege this proves Nevill called police himself prior to Jeremy or that Nevill called someone else and that person called police before Jeremy.  Whoever thought of it then decided the heck with "if only"  I will pretend that Jeremy did call at 3:36 even though Jeremy says it was earlier and even though the trial defense effectively refuted this suggestion at trial.  Since it is ignoring the evidence adduced at trial and is not supported by any credible evidence at most this allegation has propaganda value to try to get members of the public to believe Jeremy is innocent. 

There is a group of people who for whatever reason are more interested in propaganda than in things that Jeremy could actually use in court to be freed.   

[notsure]

Mmmmm all very interesting. Didnt one of julies flat mates in her first statement say he called at 3 30ish.

Calling 999 is something i would be really scared of doing in case i was wasting thier time. But i think if anyone had mentionec the word Gun i would have done.

i suppose the truth is that there really is no proof of exact times of any calls as even the policee said one of the clocks was set fast.

I was recently asked to recall events regarding the time of when certain people called, who was present and what days. When i talk about it i feel certain i have the timeljne correct but then when asked questions i think oh it could have been that day or before that instance.i had to give evidence in court and i had to be honest and say i just couldnt remember. I know what happened without a shadow of doubt but on what day and at what time i could be wrong and doubts appear because someone else may say it happened at differnt times and days.

it didnt affect the trial and the b....... was found guilty but i know how difficult it is to remember

Logs from police obviously give us a lot of information but it does seem many witnesses could have got times wrong as i could have done.

what i dont get is why people didnt just say , i cannot recall the exact time.

[scipio_usmc]

Mmmmm all very interesting. Didnt one of julies flat mates in her first statement say he called at 3 30ish.

Julie said around 3:30 but 2 of her roommates said around 3AM.  One of these said she kept her clock fast so she would not be late and the adjusted time is around 3AM. The other thought it was before 3AM but there is no way her clock could have been a little slow. The exact time will never be known though around 3AM seems the most like.  I use "around" to denotes a window that could be several minutes before or after so we are looking at between 2:55 and 3:05. It is not impossible the call was a little later but is not as likely according to the roommates who say they looked at their clocks.   

Calling 999 is something i would be really scared of doing in case i was wasting thier time. But i think if anyone had mentionec the word Gun i would have done.

Some people are morons and call emergency numbers for idiotic reasons.  In the case of someone calling to claim a crazy person running around with a gun though it is a good enough reason to call.  The main reason not to is if you were worried about police harming your relative when you think you could defuse the situation without the relative or friend being harmed so go yourself to take care of it.  Jeremy really should have called 999 it would have looked far less suspicious than looking up numbers.  He had a brainfart.  I think he was so busy trying to build up his nerve and to prepare what he was going to say that he overlooked such a simply thing as using 999.

If I had been in his place and really received the claimed call, I would have gone over there myself but before I did so I would have called 999 and notified police of what I was told and how I was going to investigate so police would be aware and would be able to come check up on me to make sure everything was ok.  This would help protect me in case I had to kill someone so I had some support for why, would let them know what happened in case I were hurt when I went over and would enable police to be in a position respond with ambulances if necessary to try to help in case it were needed but I were not in a position to be able to call for help after arrival.   

If not for the other evidence his failure to call 999 and instead look up numbers of stations would be suspicious but that's it.  In combination with all the other evidence it is an issue because evidence compounds.

i suppose the truth is that there really is no proof of exact times of any calls as even the policee said one of the clocks was set fast.

Various police said the clock in the room that West used was notorious for being wrong.  On the other hand the clock in the HQ Information room was supposedly always accurate and they also had a clock on their phone console. That room handled 999 calls so was state of the art and even recorded all calls.  So that is the more trustworthy one.  So the most trustworthy thing is that West called Bonnett at 3:26.

The timings of various dispatches supports that police were contacted around 3:30 by Bonnett and West so support Bonnett and West speaking at 3:26 then contacting police to go to the scene.

The timing of Jeremy's call to West then would naturally have started several minutes before 3:26.  I would guess they were on the phone 3-4 minutes and certainly no more than 5 minutes before being placed on hold which is why I think his call to West was received 3:22-3:23. 

I was recently asked to recall events regarding the time of when certain people called, who was present and what days. When i talk about it i feel certain i have the timeljne correct but then when asked questions i think oh it could have been that day or before that instance.i had to give evidence in court and i had to be honest and say i just couldnt remember. I know what happened without a shadow of doubt but on what day and at what time i could be wrong and doubts appear because someone else may say it happened at differnt times and days.

it didnt affect the trial and the b....... was found guilty but i know how difficult it is to remember

After a substantial amount of time passes it is natural to not remember things with precision.  Often people will have certain things etched into their mind such as I recall being called at 3:37am by Hospice to be told of my grandmother's passing.  I remember the time because I looked at the clock before answering the phone and the event was worthy of memory.  If you get a prank call in the middle of the night even if you look at a clock you typically won't remember it long because you don't associate anything noteworthy with it.

If Jeremy actually received the call from Nevill that he claims he received then Jeremy had reason to remember it by the time he gave his statement hours later.  Unfortunately for him he didn't look at the clock when he called police or to remember the exact time because he didn't have a reason to.  He didn't think about documenting it to aid him in making up when he received his call from Nevill.  In hindsight this was something he should have done.   

Since he didn't do that he would have been better off saying he wasn't sure of the precise time and just thinks it was 3:10 or later that he just knows that a couple of minutes later he called police and then after that called Julie.  In situations where you are unsure of precise times it is best not to make them up.  Sometimes the less you say the better which is the advice lawyers always give to their clients.
 

Logs from police obviously give us a lot of information but it does seem many witnesses could have got times wrong as i could have done.

what i dont get is why people didnt just say , i cannot recall the exact time.

Sometimes because people think that looks suspicious other times it is because people think they can remember and don't realize they are mistaken.  Jeremy probably honestly recalled calling police around 3:15 (and thus made up Nevill calling at 3:10) though he probably called police 3:22-3:23 so was only off by 7-8 minutes.

The times weren't as much a problem for him as the order of the calls and looking up police numbers instead of calling 999. Calling Julie before police but lying about such hurt him and not calling 999 hurt him.

Calling Julie period makes little sense to me.  He thought it would help support his tale of receiving a call from Nevill but it actually accomplishes the opposite because it makes no sense to call her and ask for comfort while he was unsure what happened and his priority should have been to go find out what happened and try to help. Fortunately criminals make miscalculations quite often. Unfortunately some get lucky and either don't make such errors or police miss them.