Who owned killer bullets?

[mike tesko]

Ralph Bambers ammunition was 35 grain, yet other types of ammunition was used during the shootings,  including, 35 grain, 40 grain, and 29 grain ammunition...

[nugnug]

ill do my adam inpersonation.

source please.

[susan]

ill do my adam inpersonation.

source please.

 

[lookout]

ill do my adam inpersonation.

source please.

Now you're getting cheeky nugs.

[mike tesko]

ill do my adam inpersonation.
J
source please.

It has been established beyond doubt, that amongst the recovered batch of 25 bullets, that exactly 12 of these bullets have been described as WHOLE BULLETS. Lets get the facts right, a ballistic expert who was a key prosecution witness, examined the bullets in question, and attested under sworn oath, that exactly 12 of the 25 bullets were WHOLE. No other expert has challenged these descriptions, neither did  counsel for the prosecution and the defence,  neither did the trial judge, or the appellate court. Therefore it is safe to proceed on the basis that there were 12 WHOLE BULLETS, 9 nearly whole bullets, one half of a bullet, and a further three described as fragments of bullet...

At the heart of this case, are a variety of different type of .22 ammunition, namely,  29 grain, 35 grain, and 40 grain .22 bullets
..

[scipio_usmc]

Fletcher described 12 bullets as whole in a document but he didn't mean whole in the sense of no fragments broke off and they were the full bullet that had been in the cartridge case before firing. In any event Mike ran with the bogus claim that whole meant the complete bullet that had been loaded in the cartridge and thus made up the fiction they weighed exactly the same as they did prior to being fired.

Supposedly these are the weights:

Sheila
1  ) PV/19 2.16g
2  ) PV/20  1.54g

June
3  ) PV/23 2.29g
4  ) PV/24 2.42g
5  ) DRH/35a 2.43g
6  ) DRH/35b 2.44g

Nevill
7  ) DRH/5 2.42g
8  ) PV/2 2.42g
9  ) PV/4 2g

Daniel
10) PV/29 2.13g
11) DRH/36 2.42g
Nicholas
12) PV/31 2.12g

Quite obviously they were all fragments not complete bullets but he took his fiction of them being complete bullets and grouped them into 3 groups as follows:

Caliber 1
PV/20  1.54g

Caliber 2
PV/4 2g
PV/29 2.13g
PV/19 2.16g
PV/31 2.12g

Caliber 3)
PV/23 2.29g
PV/24 2.42g
DRH/35a 2.43g
DRH/35b 2.44g
DRH/5 2.42g
PV/2 2.42g
DRH/36 2.42g

He changes what particular caliber he assigns to each grouping depending upon his mood.  He usually claims group 3 were fired by police Mini-14s though the bullet weights are too light. 3.56g for the 55 grain .223 or 4.02g for the 62 grain 5.56mm used by police.

The beauty in using your imagination is you can pretend anything you want.

40 grain = 2.59 grams
35 grain = 2.27grams
29 grain = 1.88 grams

Obviously none of the fragments fall neatly into any of these.He just decided to pretend anyway.

[mike tesko]

Sheila
1  ) PV/19 2.16g -29 grain WHOLE (Too light)
2  ) PV/20  1.54g - 29 grain WHOLE (Too light)

2 x .22 short solid

June
1 )
2 )
3 )
4 ) PV/23 2.29g - 40 grain WHOLE (Too heavy)
5 ) PV/24 2.42g - 40 grain WHOLE (Too heavy)
6 ) DRH/35a 2.43g - 40 grain WHOLE (Too heavy)
7 ) DRH/35b 2.44g - 40 grain WHOLE (Too heavy)

4 x not type purchased by Ralph Bamber

Nevill
1 )
2 )
3 )
4 )
5 )
6  ) DRH/5 2.42g - 40 grain WHOLE Too heavy)
7  ) PV/2 2.42g - 40 grain WHOLE (Too heavy)
8  ) PV/4 2.0999g - 29 grain WHOLE (Too light)

3 x not type purchased by Ralph Bamber

Daniel

1 )
2 )
3 )
4 ) PV/29 2.13g - 29 grain WHOLE (Too light)
5 ) DRH/36 2.42g - 40 grain WHOLE (Too heavy)

1 x short solid, plus 1 x not the not purchased by Ralph Bamber

Nicholas
1 )
2 )
3 ) PV/31 2.12g - 29 grain WHOLE  (too light)

1 x short solid...

[scipio_usmc]

Sheila
1  ) PV/19 2.16g - 35 grain
2  ) PV/20  1.54g - 29 grain

June
3  ) PV/23 2.29g - 40 grain
4  ) PV/24 2.42g - 40 grain
5  ) DRH/35a 2.43g - 40 grain
6  ) DRH/35b 2.44g - 40 grain

Nevill
7  ) DRH/5 2.42g - 40 grain
8  ) PV/2 2.42g - 40 grain
9  ) PV/4 2g

Daniel
10) PV/29 2.13g - 29 grain
11) DRH/36 2.42g - 40 grain

Nicholas
12) PV/31 2.12g - 29 grain

2.12 and 2.13 grams are nearly 33 grain not 29 grain.  All are too big to have been from a 29 grain except PV/20 which weighed 23.75 grains so 5.25 grains less.   

PV19 was 33 1/3 grains so 1 2/3 grains less than 35 grain.

Even based on your claims they would not be whole in the sense of the same weight as an unfired round.   

There is nothing that precludes these fragments from all being the same size originally.  Your claim they were more than 1 size is not supported by anything.

Moreover here is a good laugh, the bullets Nevill bought might have been none of the above.  Eley had a 37.5 grain (2.44 grams) subsonic hollow until about 10-12 years ago and it was available in 1984.  I was so busy looking for 35 grain and 40 grain that I missed it until today.  It was actually sold side by side with the 40 grain for quite a while.  It was discontinued because most opted for the 40. Every single fragment weighed less than this it is possible they were 37.5 grain not 40 grain.  The only way to know would be to actually see the box and lot numbers.

 

 

 

[mike tesko]

2.12 and 2.13 grams are nearly 33 grain not 29 grain.  All are too big to have been from a 29 grain except PV/20 which weighed 23.75 grains so 5.25 grains less.   

PV19 was 33 1/3 grains so 1 2/3 grains less than 35 grain.

Even based on your claims they would not be whole in the sense of the same weight as an unfired round.   

There is nothing that precludes these fragments from all being the same size originally.  Your claim they were more than 1 size is not supported by anything.

Moreover here is a good laugh, the bullets Nevill bought might have been none of the above.  Eley had a 37.5 grain (2.44 grams) subsonic hollow until about 10-12 years ago and it was available in 1984.  I was so busy looking for 35 grain and 40 grain that I missed it until today.  It was actually sold side by side with the 40 grain for quite a while.  It was discontinued because most opted for the 40. Every single fragment weighed less than this it is possible they were 37.5 grain not 40 grain.  The only way to know would be to actually see the box and lot numbers.

You are still refusing to accept that Eley produced a 35 grain hollow point bullet prior to 1985. Why are you so reluctant to have to admit that the 2.26g (35 grain) bullets were being manufactured and produced by Eley, prior to the date Ralph Bamber purchased 500 rounds of it, on the 24th November 1984...

[mike tesko]

The fact of the matter is, that none of these 12 WHOLE BULLETS had been purchased by Ralph Bamber...

[scipio_usmc]

You are still refusing to accept that Eley produced a 35 grain hollow point bullet prior to 1985. Why are you so reluctant to have to admit that the 2.26g (35 grain) bullets were being manufactured and produced by Eley, prior to the date Ralph Bamber purchased 500 rounds of it, on the 24th November 1984...

Until I see a solid source that establishes 35 grain subsonic hollow points were sold no. If Eley says they were sold and until when I will believe it because I consider them a solid source but all they pointed me to so far is 37.5 grain.  Supposedly it is being researched if I get an answer I will post it. 

[scipio_usmc]

The fact of the matter is, that none of these 12 WHOLE BULLETS had been purchased by Ralph Bamber...

Nothing suggests any of these bullets where actually whole.  His use of the term clearly wasn't referring to whole as in the same weight as unfired bullets.

[mike tesko]

Until I see a solid source that establishes 35 grain subsonic hollow points were sold no. If Eley says they were sold and until when I will believe it because I consider them a solid source but all they pointed me to so far is 37.5 grain.  Supposedly it is being researched if I get an answer I will post it.

The chart I posted, clearly states that Eley did manufacture the 35 grain bullets that were sold to Ralph Bamber on the 24th November 1984, delivered to whf on the 30th November 1984. The same chart I posted confirmed that Eley were or during 29grain, and 40 grain bullets, as well as the 35 grain bullets belonging to Ralph Bamber...

[scipio_usmc]

The chart I posted, clearly states that Eley did manufacture the 35 grain bullets that were sold to Ralph Bamber on the 24th November 1984, delivered to whf on the 30th November 1984. The same chart I posted confirmed that Eley were or during 29grain, and 40 grain bullets, as well as the 35 grain bullets belonging to Ralph Bamber...

There is no indication of who created the chart or when. There is nothing that corroborates Eley made 35 grain- no boxes of such ammo- no references in charts published by gun companies or in gun magazines or books. I want to see it in one of their price list catalogs or some other reputable place not a single reference that could be wrong.

In the meantime proving they were sold in 1984 requires a 1984 catalog noting it. Even if you found a source that listed 35 grain being sold side by side with 37.5 and 40 grain in 1984 (which is not at all likely) that would simply mean Nevill could have purchased any of them.  Proving he actually purchased 35 grain requires showing the actual product boxes or finding an official case document identifying the grain number.  If you had such you already would have posted it instead of that badly photocopied chart that you have no idea where it was copied from. 

[mike tesko]

There is no indication of who created the chart or when. There is nothing that corroborates Eley made 35 grain- no boxes of such ammo- no references in charts published by gun companies or in gun magazines or books. I want to see it in one of their price list catalogs or some other reputable place not a single reference that could be wrong.

In the meantime proving they were sold in 1984 requires a 1984 catalog noting it. Even if you found a source that listed 35 grain being sold side by side with 37.5 and 40 grain in 1984 (which is not at all likely) that would simply mean Nevill could have purchased any of them.  Proving he actually purchased 35 grain requires showing the actual product boxes or finding an official case document identifying the grain number.  If you had such you already would have posted it instead of that badly photocopied chart that you have no idea where it was copied from.

Are you saying the chart I posted is a forgery?