Author Topic: Human blood in the silencer:  (Read 26549 times)

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Offline lookout

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Re: Human blood in the silencer:
« Reply #195 on: February 23, 2015, 02:10:PM »
I would still like it proved by testing that this .22 rifle will "always" produce drawback with a contact shot. I don't think it will? All we have here are the opinions of so called "experts". What experts? People who have studied these things yes, but also fallible people. We heard nothing from these men which told us the reality of the situation, that drawback does not always happen and in the case of a .22 rifle hardly ever happens. If they were experts then they should have revealed that information to the jury.





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Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Human blood in the silencer:
« Reply #196 on: February 23, 2015, 04:40:PM »
I would still like it proved by testing that this .22 rifle will "always" produce drawback with a contact shot. I don't think it will? All we have here are the opinions of so called "experts". What experts? People who have studied these things yes, but also fallible people. We heard nothing from these men which told us the reality of the situation, that drawback does not always happen and in the case of a .22 rifle hardly ever happens. If they were experts then they should have revealed that information to the jury.

The 1977 tests featured a consistent finding of back spatter in .22 caliber weapons but the distance the blood traveled was less and the volume was less than with observed with larger calibers.   

No gun always produces backspatter or drawback.  I keep trying to bring home that the most critical factor in whether there will be backspatter or drawback is the location of the wound.  I intentionally posted the above quote because it noted the guy had personal experience with cases where 22 calibers did not result in drawback when the shots were to the head. That by definition means drawback doesn't always occur during contact shots.  It is not the only anecdotal evidence about .22 shots to the head. Sometimes .22 shots to the head have resulted in spatter but only select locations and more often than not it doesn't

To assess the likelihood of spatter you have to look at the location and nature of the wound. It is the attributes of the skin and blood vessels in the neck and the damage done to them by the bullet which resulted in the assessment used at trial that drawback would occur.  There were no generalizations this went to the specifics of wound location.  It is this detailed inquiry that the defense would have to find an expert to speak to.  They would consult an expert to see if the expert agreed backspatter would occur from a shot to such area. If you can't find an expert to refute the point then you are stuck without any way to get evidence in the record to refute this particular point made by the prosecution expert and have to try a different angle of attack against the moderator evidence.  For example trying to see if you could find an expert who will argue the wound was not a contact wound and thus the spatter would have gotten on the outside of the weapon.  That could create new problems though like meaning the gun was fired too far away for her to have fired it so any new examination has potential pitfalls.

 

     
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Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Human blood in the silencer:
« Reply #197 on: February 23, 2015, 04:47:PM »
Surely,if it had been fired in the frenzied manner in which it was,then there would be drawback,and plenty of it all the way down the barrel.? 25 shots non-stop. ?

Spatter has to do with location a shot is delivered not the shooter's demeanor.

when a wound does produce backspatter the range at which it was fired will determine whether the shooter is close enough to get hit by it

When a contact shot results in spatter, the spatter goes inside the weapon

A shot fired at very close range will mostly result in blood on the weapon and shooter but can result in some blood getting up to 5mm deep into the weapon as well.

It takes a contact shot to result in blood getting deeper into the weapon.

 
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Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Human blood in the silencer:
« Reply #198 on: February 23, 2015, 05:11:PM »
It doesn't appear to say that in the page you published below this post? He says it is best not to generalise too much. But I have also read that a .22 contact shot the drawback went only a few mm into the barrel?

I must admit however that if drawback did occur in this case then the absence of blood in the barrel of the gun is a problem for my theory. However it is said that the blood in the silencer allegedly found by the relatives travelled down a long way into the silencer. Now to my mind there is such a thing as "overkill". What I mean by this is that it would probably only travel that far into the silencer if it have been put there deliberately.

I posted the page I did because it has some valuable information:

1) the forward parts of the outside of the weapon will get hit with high velocity backspatter
2) blood that can get inside the barrel is a factor of distance and ammunition used
A) 22 caliber weapons will get blood inside when fired up to 1.5 inches away
B) larger caliber weapons can get blood inside when fired up to 5 inches away
C) blood can travel up to about 5mm deep at the ranges discussed in A and B but will not travel beyond this in any significant amount unless fired at contact range

Even a significant amount of blood doesn't mean a huge amount.  Terms are relative.  There are bigger and smaller particles of blood but even the bigger ones are tiny.  They are all atomized blood particles.  The bigger ones can't ravel as far as the smaller ones. That is why you will see the larger drops of blood at the beginning of the muzzle and the ones further inside will be smaller.  By the same token smaller particles will read a shooter several feet away while the larger particles will not make it that far.

This page even highlights the importance of wound location.  Wound location determines whether spatter will occur or not.  It is a factor of the properties of the skin and blood vessels in the wound area. Source after source that i have read note that while larger caliber rounds to the head often result in spatter that headshots from 22 calibers usually don't.   This not only brings home the fact you have to look in detail at the location of the wounds but has relevance to the case at hand because the boys suffered head shots.   The prosecution experts didn't view any of their head wounds as being likely to result in spatter.  So that means their blood would not be expected to be found in the weapon or on the shooter.  In contrast June and Nevill had wounds that would result in blood on the shooter most obvious though would be the medium velocity spatter from the beating.  Medium velocity spatter is not atomized is it larger blood particles that would be easy to see.   

The distances inside the weapon/moderator are also relative.  More than 5mm is considered deep.  1-3 inches being called deep sound odd but that is the use of the term in that instance.  So you have to actually understand the meaning of terms and not use their ordinary everyday meaning.

   

Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline Adam

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Re: Human blood in the silencer:
« Reply #199 on: November 15, 2015, 03:59:PM »
This is a thread about the blood in the silencer.

It really is ridiculous to assume Sheila put the silencer on the rifle pre massacre, then took it off and neatly put it away in a box, underneath other boxes at the back of the gun cupboard. But she had to, as Bamber said, he left the rifle without the silencer.

The judge rightly asked if Sheila knew how to do this. Come to think of it, could she load and chamber a gun ?

Bamber made a fuss in the early 90's. Without any success.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2015, 04:03:PM by Adam »
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Offline Jan

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Re: Human blood in the silencer:
« Reply #200 on: November 15, 2015, 04:13:PM »
Why did the police tell the family that they may be suspected of planting the blood ?

Why was RB asked if he had cut himself when handling the evidence ?


Now I am no way saying that is what happened before you jump the gun - but I am indicating why I feel the moderator was potentially open to contamination . Which when it is the only piece of concrete evidence in my eyes  is very wrong.

Offline Adam

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Re: Human blood in the silencer:
« Reply #201 on: November 15, 2015, 04:13:PM »
My above post is generously assuming it was not Sheila's blood and she was able to do these erratic things.

However it was Sheila's blood. So impossible.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2015, 04:14:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

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Re: Human blood in the silencer:
« Reply #202 on: November 15, 2015, 04:16:PM »
Why did the police tell the family that they may be suspected of planting the blood ?

Why was RB asked if he had cut himself when handling the evidence ?


Now I am no way saying that is what happened before you jump the gun - but I am indicating why I feel the moderator was potentially open to contamination . Which when it is the only piece of concrete evidence in my eyes  is very wrong.

There are 30 pieces of forensic evidence. Really only one is needed.

I doubt that most other crimes have so much forensic evidence.

The police asked RB if he cut his finger ? Trudie will be all over this on Radio Wessex.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Jan

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Re: Human blood in the silencer:
« Reply #203 on: November 15, 2015, 04:21:PM »
There are 30 pieces of forensic evidence. Really only one is needed.

I doubt that most other crimes have so much forensic evidence.

The police asked RB if he cut his finger ? Trudie will be all over this on Radio Wessex.

I think you have a thing about trudie :)  you keep mentioning her.

Offline Adam

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Re: Human blood in the silencer:
« Reply #204 on: November 15, 2015, 04:23:PM »
The police will tell the relatives they will be suspected of planting the blood. I would expect them to. And I doubt the relatives would be surprised.

The defence and Bamber will automatically claim this. 

To be fair the defence at trial did not claim this. It is a very outlandish claim. Bamber has since claimed his cousins framed him. Source available upon request.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

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Re: Human blood in the silencer:
« Reply #205 on: November 15, 2015, 04:26:PM »
I think you have a thing about trudie :)  you keep mentioning her.

Me and Trudie would have something to talk about on a date. But may not agree. Anyway, she loves Jeremy.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Jan

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Re: Human blood in the silencer:
« Reply #206 on: November 15, 2015, 04:26:PM »
The police will tell the relatives they will be suspected of planting the blood. I would expect them to. And I doubt the relatives would be surprised.

The defence and Bamber will automatically claim this. 

To be fair the defence at trial did not claim this. It is a very outlandish claim. Bamber has since claimed his cousins framed him. Source available upon request.

Well he would not have had the chance to even implicate that if they had not removed the silencer from the scene. They opened themselves to criticism .


Offline Caroline

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Re: Human blood in the silencer:
« Reply #207 on: November 15, 2015, 06:05:PM »
Me and Trudie would have something to talk about on a date. But may not agree. Anyway, she loves Jeremy.

And you're too old for her!
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Offline susan

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Re: Human blood in the silencer:
« Reply #208 on: November 15, 2015, 06:08:PM »
And you're too old for her!

I think he is too young to date ;)

Offline Caroline

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Re: Human blood in the silencer:
« Reply #209 on: November 15, 2015, 06:12:PM »
I think he is too young to date ;)

Adam has been 17 since he joined - but I think he probably made a typo!  ;D ;D ;D ;D
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