June Bamber, did not attend bible class evening before she was killed...

[Caroline]

BUT YOU AREN'T JEREMY. AND TO STAGE A BREAK-IN WOULD SURELY HAVE NECESSITATED STEALING SOMETHING. WHAT WOULD HE HAVE DONE WITH IT.

A break-in would also have necessitated further investigation and he obviously would have wanted that. If it could be made to look like Sheila, that's a quick end to it. He implicated Sheila with the phone call and distanced himself at the same time.

[gringo]

Following YOUR chain of thought, I can quite reasonably say that, for ALL your bumptiousness about your "well made point" YOU "seem to be unwilling or unable" to comprehend what Jeremy MAY have done if he found himself in a corner he hadn't expected to be in.

I stand by, and reiterate, what I said about the need to think on the run. It MAY have been his plan to go in, shoot everyone, leave and do NOTHING. He could then have "discovered" the scene when he turned up for work OR have appeared suitably devastated and horrified when notified that someone else had. I can't imagine that having to shoot Sheila twice wouldn't have momentarily thrown him and he may have felt that his priority NOW was to PROVE he wasn't at the scene by informing the police that he'd had a call from his father, who WAS. I never said it was the brightest plan in the world -although he came VERY close to pulling it off.

I can't BELIEVE that you're actually asking me to explain further WHY Jeremy would invent a call to implicate Sheila........................The OBVIOUS answer, surely, is to deflect suspicion from himself. His father, according to Jeremy, had TOLD him Sheila had gone mad and had one of his guns -and here, Jeremy is effectively distancing himself from the situation. He knows nothing more than his father has told him. How could they doubt Jeremy? Jeremy then spent 2/3 hours LABOURING, to the attendant police, the point of his sister's mental illness.

I allow that none of this would be what YOU would do, which could be why it sounds incomprehensible, but I assume you've never slaughtered five members of your family. The person who IS capable of such is likely to have a mind set very different from your own.

  I have no trouble at all in comprehending what Jeremy may have had to do if he found himself in a corner but you clearly do. You appear to believe that he would throw in a phone call in order to deflect attention from himself, despite the fact that this course of action would in fact deflect attention on to him,or so he would believe if he had indeed shot Sheila twice.
       The point had already been well made by Alias originally and Patti so silly digs about "well made points" and bumptiousness, apart from missing the target, only emphasise the fact that the points you have raised are not well made or thought through

[Alias]

There is no allegedly about it, there were two shots, but there was obviously two shots because the first was ineffective. Who said it was planned? Of course it wasn't planned that way - no one has said it was. It happened that way - fate intervened and left him with no alternative but to go ahead and try and distance himself with the phone call. I seem to be repeating the same thing over and over again and at no point did I say he PLANNED a staged multiple shot suicide.

I am not saying "allegedly" about the two shots (why do you keep saying that?!), no one is disputing there were two shots! The "allegedly" is about Jeremy staging a suicide.

There would be other alternatives - and I refuse to repeat myself; as you are, I am tired of it, enough is enough.
We will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

[Caroline]

  I have no trouble at all in comprehending what Jeremy may have had to do if he found himself in a corner but you clearly do. You appear to believe that he would throw in a phone call in order to deflect attention from himself, despite the fact that this course of action would in fact deflect attention on to him,or so he would believe if he had indeed shot Sheila twice.
       The point had already been well made by Alias originally and Patti so silly digs about "well made points" and bumptiousness, apart from missing the target, only emphasise the fact that the points you have raised are not well made or thought through

And yet the phone call was one of the things that convicted him for the VERY reasons you're saying it wouldn't happen! It did happen! 

[Caroline]

I am not saying "allegedly" about the two shots (why do you keep saying that?!), no one is disputing there were two shots! The "allegedly" is about Jeremy staging a suicide.

There would be other alternatives - and I refuse to repeat myself; as you are, I am tired of it, enough is enough.
We will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Completely.

[Jane]

April can you refrain from using capital letters please. Some people may be offended by it as in internet terms it is deemed as shouting. Thanks.

I, like Queen Victoria, use capitals to STRESS pertinent words. I have NEVER heard it used as a method of raising one's voice. The other, VERY occasional usage is to differentiate.

[Caroline]

I, like Queen Victoria, use capitals to STRESS pertinent words. I have NEVER heard it used as a method of raising one's voice. The other, VERY occasional usage is to differentiate.

Interestingly, Jeremy writes all his letters in Caps! 

[Alias]

Interestingly, Jeremy writes all his letters in Caps! 

Not the one we saw to Julie, so not all.
Anyway, I think it is only on the internet it is considered shouting. I have seen moderators on other boards ask members not to "shout".

[Caroline]

Not the one we saw to Julie, so not all.
Anyway, I think it is only on the internet it is considered shouting. I have seen moderators on other boards ask members not to "shout".

OKAY!! 

[Patti]

Interestingly, Jeremy writes all his letters in Caps! 

Yeah but his name is not Albert.

[gringo]

I don't think the point had been made well at all - I just hear complete denial. Who do you imagine the first suspect would have been if Jeremy hadn't tried to distance himself from the event with the phone call from his father? And it's pointless saying he messed up the suicide option because it almost worked!

  I didn't expect that you would agree that the point had been well made and I came to this conclusion by following your reasoning so far.
     If Jeremy decided to invent a call from his father he would not use a scenario that would be, as far as Jeremy would know, impossible. After messing up the suicide in such a way that he would not believe suicide to be feasible, he then according to your reasoning, invents a call which requires everyone to believe that Sheila had committed suicide. He could have invented any scenario he chose. Those options may not have been perfect but anything would have been better than messing up a suicide, seemingly making suicide impossible, but then going along with the original suicide plan despite this obvious flaw.
      Your final sentence is just illogical. Are you suggesting that he didn't mess up the suicide, or is your point that he would have the foresight to know that the police wouldn't bat an eyelid at a two shot suicide and therefore his plan would "almost" work.
       

[gringo]

A break-in would also have necessitated further investigation and he obviously would have wanted that. If it could be made to look like Sheila, that's a quick end to it. He implicated Sheila with the phone call and distanced himself at the same time.

He could not have thought that a two shot suicide coupled with a phone call from himself would have made for a "quick end to it". As for implicating Sheila and distancing himself, it would have been more likely to implicate himself and distance Sheila. It makes no sense to suggest that Bamber shot Sheila twice,then attempted to stage it as suicide, before making a call to police which could only incriminate himself or Sheila, all the time knowing that when the bodies were discovered it would be found that Sheila couldn't have killed herself.
     

[scipio_usmc]

  I didn't expect that you would agree that the point had been well made and I came to this conclusion by following your reasoning so far.
     If Jeremy decided to invent a call from his father he would not use a scenario that would be, as far as Jeremy would know, impossible. After messing up the suicide in such a way that he would not believe suicide to be feasible, he then according to your reasoning, invents a call which requires everyone to believe that Sheila had committed suicide. He could have invented any scenario he chose. Those options may not have been perfect but anything would have been better than messing up a suicide, seemingly making suicide impossible, but then going along with the original suicide plan despite this obvious flaw.
      Your final sentence is just illogical. Are you suggesting that he didn't mess up the suicide, or is your point that he would have the foresight to know that the police wouldn't bat an eyelid at a two shot suicide and therefore his plan would "almost" work.
     

It is your claims that are illogical.

1) He planned to stage things as a murder suicide and once he had finished things he had no choice but to go with that option because it was too late to try to stage it as a breaking at that point. Someone who broke in would not go room to room killing everyone in their beds upon being discovered at most you shoot the person who discovers you then get the hell out of there.

2) He had no idea he botched things up, he was convinced he had carried out things perfectly. The only things he was worried about was whether his prints got on the gun when his glove came off but that was a minor issue and he mad eup the story about taking the gun out in part to deal with that possibility.

3) Though it is uncommon for those committing suicide by firearm to fire more than 1 shot it does sometimes happen and didn't lead the ME to say it wasn't suicide so the claim he should have known the two shots meant he could not still run with his suicide claim is nonsense.  He had no choice and certainly was better off shooting her a second time killing her then to risk her living and telling police what he had done.

Jeremy supporters always spend their time on illogical wasted arguments because they are unable to refute the evidence in chief, it is a distracting measure.  What needs to be done to establish his innocence is to refute the evidence in chief but that can't be done so it is simply dismissed/ignored and game played.

[Caroline]

  I didn't expect that you would agree that the point had been well made and I came to this conclusion by following your reasoning so far.
     If Jeremy decided to invent a call from his father he would not use a scenario that would be, as far as Jeremy would know, impossible. After messing up the suicide in such a way that he would not believe suicide to be feasible, he then according to your reasoning, invents a call which requires everyone to believe that Sheila had committed suicide. He could have invented any scenario he chose. Those options may not have been perfect but anything would have been better than messing up a suicide, seemingly making suicide impossible, but then going along with the original suicide plan despite this obvious flaw.
      Your final sentence is just illogical. Are you suggesting that he didn't mess up the suicide, or is your point that he would have the foresight to know that the police wouldn't bat an eyelid at a two shot suicide and therefore his plan would "almost" work.
     

It's amazing to me how you KNOW what Jeremy would or wouldn't do and yet here we are 30 years later with the very scenario you're trying (and failing) to disprove, being the very scenario which helped convict him. My last sentence made perfect sense - of course he couldn't know that the police wouldn't be suspicious over the two shots SO! He HAD to MAKE GOOD, by DISTANCING himself from the scene. He could indeed have left things to play out but if he didn't TRY and distance himself and feed police Sheila on a plate, if police were suspicious HE would be the FIRST post of call!!

[Caroline]

He could not have thought that a two shot suicide coupled with a phone call from himself would have made for a "quick end to it". As for implicating Sheila and distancing himself, it would have been more likely to implicate himself and distance Sheila. It makes no sense to suggest that Bamber shot Sheila twice,then attempted to stage it as suicide, before making a call to police which could only incriminate himself or Sheila, all the time knowing that when the bodies were discovered it would be found that Sheila couldn't have killed herself.
   

Of course he couldn't KNOW! He had no choice. What are you talking about? LOL They DID believe Sheila shot herself!! The bodies were released for cremation and he ALMOST got away with it, if he hadn't made it look like suicide, he'd have been the first suspect - again, he had no CHOICE!