The murder of 14 year-old schoolgirl Jodi Jones near Edinburgh on 30 June 2003

[gordo30]

lets look at the time frame between 17:00 and 17:45 this is when jodi was both entering the paths towards lukes,meeting someone,crime taking place and perpetraitor/s making their way out of the area.

1,we have two people possibly at an earlier time about to travel one of 3 possible routes as witnessed by AB there included because if they were going to newbattle they may well have been on the paths during this time.

2, a cyclist on the route either entering or leaving by the easthouse end, he would have been only a short time on a bike on Roans dyke path but there non the less.

3, boys playing in the very strip of woodland where the attack took place, the length of time they were there is negligable and the amount of the woodland they covered.

4, two other dog walkers on the path

5, young woman pushing buggy

6,two indentified males on motorised bike

7, many people paying attention to the bike and who witnessed it proped up against the V in the wall, what was it about this bike that made people notice it? could we also say that had anything like jodi being forced over the wall or indeed anyone around that break in the wall would have been noticed and brought to the police attention?

all this happening and in the middle of it a young girl is subjected to a terrible ordeal and murder and no one sees anything or hears anything !!

is there anyone out there who still believes jodi was on that path and the crime being committed at this time......

[sandra L]

lets look at the time frame between 17:00 and 17:45 this is when jodi was both entering the paths towards lukes,meeting someone,crime taking place and perpetraitor/s making their way out of the area.

1,we have two people possibly at an earlier time about to travel one of 3 possible routes as witnessed by AB there included because if they were going to newbattle they may well have been on the paths during this time.

2, a cyclist on the route either entering or leaving by the easthouse end, he would have been only a short time on a bike on Roans dyke path but there non the less.

He came in from the Newbattle end at, he reckoned, between 5 and 10 past 5 - therefore, he should have seen the moped propped against the wall, or the moped being pushed up the path, Jodi on the path or being bundled over or climbing over the wall. He saw none of this. However, his guesstimate was based on how long the cycle route usually took him to cycle (he had a training route that he used regularly) and it's not clear if he meant he arrived between 5.05 and 5.10,  or if that was the time he thought he was travelling along the path. If he got to the Newbattle end a few minutes before 5, the moped wasn't there, and Jodi would have been at the top of the path or on the entrance to the path - he didn't see her. If he was later by 5 or 10 minutes, he may not have seen anything. His account was that he heard a noise behind the wall and stopped to listen. Interestingly, he said he was extremely nervous talking to the police (even though he went to them immediately) because he felt like they were treating him "as a suspect."

3, boys playing in the very strip of woodland where the attack took place, the length of time they were there is negligable and the amount of the woodland they covered.

Do we know this for sure? They were traced and police spoke to them, but I haven't seen anything that clarifies how long they were there, or how much of the woodland area they played in

4, two other dog walkers on the path

5, young woman pushing buggy

6,two indentified males on motorised bike

7, many people paying attention to the bike and who witnessed it proped up against the V in the wall, what was it about this bike that made people notice it? could we also say that had anything like jodi being forced over the wall or indeed anyone around that break in the wall would have been noticed and brought to the police attention?

all this happening and in the middle of it a young girl is subjected to a terrible ordeal and murder and no one sees anything or hears anything !!

The bike was extremely noisy and looked "hand built" so it drew attention to itself. The witness who noticed it propped against the wall had already seen it earlier, both running noisily, and being pushed after it cut out.

I think it's fair to say that with so many people in the area in that time, someone would have noticed something. Bearing in mind JF and GD were not with the bike when it was seen at 5.15 against the wall, they had to get back from wherever they were to retrieve the bike and get it home. Their account is that they got it going again and rode it back to GD's house, but where were they in between?

GD gave an account of a "yellow framed push bike" against the school railings at the junction of the paths - no-one else - not the dog walkers, the cyclist, the young couple walking earlier, or even JF himself mentioned this bike. I'll continue this n my next post.

is there anyone out there who still believes jodi was on that path and the crime being committed at this time......

You missed Stocky Man - that sighting was on the main Easthouses Road at around 5.05pm, meaning Jodi wasn't on Roan's Dyke path at all (if that was where she headed after this sighting) until around 12 minutes past 5 - she still has to get to the V point, taking it, by the police's own timings, to almost 25 past 5. She'd still have had to run into JF and GD and possibly the cyclist. So essentially, taking all of the other witness statements into account, between 5pm and 5.30, there's barely a moment that there wouldn't have been someone to witness Jodi on that path.

[sandra L]

Push bikes!

Push bikes featured with an almost ridiculous amount of significance in the early investigation, and it was literally years before I discovered why.

The police were running around asking all and sundry what they knew about Luke and push bikes. In their earliest statements, JF and GD "volunteered" stories about Luke and various pushbikes. An account attributed to JoJ spoke of Luke swapping one bike for another. GD tried to throw Luke and JF under the bus by claiming JF had stolen a bike, and then swapped it with Luke for one of Luke's bikes. The police took Luke's bike (flat tyres and all) from the wall of the garage at his home for testing. AW spoke of a bike JF had kept in the hallway at her house - JF said it was a rubbish bike, he'd chained it to the railings at the local college and left it there. GD threw in the "yellow framed bike" in his account of his and JFs movements on the path that day. JuJ told the police Luke would come to the house for Jodi either on foot or on his bike.

Why? Why so much focus on push bikes?

Well, it turns out that JuJ told police Luke had told her on the phone, just before 11pm, that he was at the Newbattle entrance to the path and was coming up on his bike. What he actually said was he was coming up with his dog. The search trio was already at the top of the path when Luke arrived - did they too expect him earlier because he was on his bike? AW expressed surprise that he had the dog with him.

I can see the earliest investigators thinking,, hang on, there's something not right here - what's he done with the bike, since, from the moment they left JuJ's house at 23.18, they were already suspicious of Luke, believing he had left JuJ's house with Jodi at tea-time and was now claiming not to have seen her all evening. One officer believed Luke was "galloping about behind the school" when he (Luke), and the others, hadn't moved from the V point, and another claimed Luke had "led his officers a merry dance."

\Where did that early misinformation, and the suspicion about bikes come from? And more to the point,, why? Who, in reality, could mistake "on my bike" for "with my dog"? For clarity, JuJ corrected this herself, but not until some weeks later - in between times, everyone was still under the impression that either Luke was on his bike that night, or that for some reason, he had lied to JuJ about it. Neither was true, but nobody except JuJ knew that.

[nugnug]

theres also the fact that the kiler would of had a fair bit of blood on them and if they had down it in broad daylight about  tea time unless they lived very near by they would of had a very slim chance of not being noticeid.

[sandra L]

There are a number of ways the killer could have escaped without coming out onto either  of the paths, but this was never even a police consideration - in order to shoe-horn everything into their chosen theory, the initial claims that the killer would be heavily bloodstained, and appeals for anyone who'd witnessed someone disposing of their usual clothing, changing appearance, etc were dropped by trial - by then they were claiming the killer would "not necessarily" have been blood stained at all.

Even thought Busuttil, the pathologist, later stated it would have been impossible for the killer not have been contaminated with Jodi's blood, the ridiculous prosecution contention still stands today.

One of the routes through woodland runs around the outside of the golf course - there were two reports of suspicious behaviour in that area - one golfer saw a man emerging from the woods holding a "bundle" before stepping quickly back out of sight. Another saw someone at the river, possibly washing something in the river.

None of those other potential escape routes, however, makes it possible to get to Newbattle Abbey Crescent, where Luke lived, and to his front door, without emerging onto a main road, and a wide residential street.

[sandra L]

Luke's next door neighbour told police that he saw Luke out on the street, heading for his house at "about 10 o'clock or a little after." I've never quite worked out where the police were trying to go with this - I think it was in some way trying to frame an opportunity for Luke to have disposed of the weapon or clothing.

Here are the known facts - Luke returned home at 9.30pm (based on testimony from the other boys he was hanging around with that night.) He took Mia out for her last walk at around 10.20 - 10.30 - it was during this walk that he received JuJ's text intended for Jodi.

If we insert neighbour's sighting into that, the prosecution case is that Luke, having escaped unnoticed, cleaned up and been identified sitting, perfectly normal,  on a wall at the end of his street by 5.45pm, messed around in the woods with his mates, returned home, went out again to be seen returning half an hour later (having disposed of the weapon - the clothing part was dropped when they decided Corinne had burned it in the garden), went out again 20 - 30 minutes later to take the dog for a walk.

Really? Luke normally returned home after 10, having seen Jodi home for her curfew of 10pm. Interestingly, the neighbour's wife could not back up her husband's claim of seeing Luke "at or a little after" 10pm - it's equally possible the neighbour assumed Luke was returning at his normal time because that was what he (the neighbour) was used to seeing.

If Luke really was the cunning mastermind they tried to paint him as, wouldn't it have made more sense to "dispose of the weapon" under the cover of taking the dog for a walk, rather than drawing attention to himself with all that toing and froing?

Aside from the ludicrous scenario above, the prosecution would have us believe Luke returned home, cleaned up (without leaving any forensic traces in the house), left his blood stained clothing with his mother to burn while he went out to be seen at the end of his street. His mother then waited an hour and a quarter before trying to burn the clothing. An hour later, it rained heavily, presumably putting the fire out, because it was lit again (these are prosecution claims, remember) an hour and a half to two hours later, with no accelerants, and burned so fiercely that it destroyed every single forensic trace - zips, metal studs, melted synthetic fabrics, threads, everything. The neighbour didn't have to close the window to keep the smoke from this inferno out - he "liked" the smell of woodsmoke.

Meanwhile, Jodi had been "missing" - at least from her parents' perspective, for more than 4 hours - her body could have been found at any time. There was no time to dispose of the ash from the burner and replace it with "innocent ash" - Luke and Corinne were in the police station from half past midnight to 7am the following morning, and were under police surveillance from then on.

How people actually believed  this nonsense is beyond me.

[gordo30]

The misinformation you talk about is clearly a mother who didn't know the basic things about her daughter because she was preoccupied with something, the daughters appearsnce, where she was going and with who, it was a series of guesses about these factors given what happened that evening it's not unusual for someone to want to provide information that may help find her daughters killer.
It did however start the police down a route that made them lose sight of the case objectively.

The case of Sian Jenkins where he was convicted on microscopic bloodless says it all for me, this is what any killer is up against when it comes to DNA , this case was very much about blood and the thought that someone could perform those injuries to Jodi and not be contaminated is rediculous. There was blood on branches that would have transferred, blood on the ground, blood from contact with the body and blood from creating or being in contact with the wounds.

The escape routes are something I will need to leave to you Sandra as I have no real knowledge of the area so can't translate any of the information into how this case panned out or the possibilities .

[sandra L]

The case of Sian Jenkins where he was convicted on microscopic bloodless says it all for me, this is what any killer is up against when it comes to DNA , this case was very much about blood and the thought that someone could perform those injuries to Jodi and not be contaminated is rediculous. There was blood on branches that would have transferred, blood on the ground, blood from contact with the body and blood from creating or being in contact with the wounds.

There was a crime scene picture of someone holding a measuring square against the wall (to demonstrate the size of an area of bloodstaining). The hand holding the measuring square was wearing one of those latex forensic gloves, and here's the shocker - in the picture, the glove appears to be both soil and blood stained.

Two points here - (1) if even investigating officers are picking up traces of blood hours after the murder, it becomes impossible to maintain that the killer did not pick up such traces at the time of the attack and (2) how much cross-contamination was actually allowed to occur in the so-called forensic examination of this case?

By the time the forensics officer got there, items had been moved, items of clothing had been "gathered up" (allowing for cross contamination of those items to each other), Jodi's body had been not only moved onto a plastic sheet, but rolled over to allow for both front and back of her body to be photographed - this is before the forensics officer got there, and before the pathologist had examined the body in situ. What were they thinking? Or was it a case of, because of their over confidence from the off that Luke was the killer, they didn't think they had to wait?

[gordo30]

we know the ground was such  that footprints were cast and wasnt it DD that suggested one was heading in the direction of Newbattle? luke wore very destinctive shoes ones that would have an almost unique footprint, there would have been other forms of organic forensics that may have put the killer at the crime scene so not all blood it was impossible to be forensically free of that crime and have commited it.

[nugnug]

There are a number of ways the killer could have escaped without coming out onto either  of the paths, but this was never even a police consideration - in order to shoe-horn everything into their chosen theory, the initial claims that the killer would be heavily bloodstained, and appeals for anyone who'd witnessed someone disposing of their usual clothing, changing appearance, etc were dropped by trial - by then they were claiming the killer would "not necessarily" have been blood stained at all.

Even thought Busuttil, the pathologist, later stated it would have been impossible for the killer not have been contaminated with Jodi's blood, the ridiculous prosecution contention still stands today.

One of the routes through woodland runs around the outside of the golf course - there were two reports of suspicious behaviour in that area - one golfer saw a man emerging from the woods holding a "bundle" before stepping quickly back out of sight. Another saw someone at the river, possibly washing something in the river.

None of those other potential escape routes, however, makes it possible to get to Newbattle Abbey Crescent, where Luke lived, and to his front door, without emerging onto a main road, and a wide residential street.

theres was blood all over the scene i would find it hard to belive that blood could spray in all directions exept were the killer was standing also jodi faught back pretty hard and so i certan the killer would of had marks on or scratches on him. probely wouldent be noticied be a a casual observer but probely would of been by anybody who knew them

[gordo30]

I'm not totally sure that anyone would have had scratches as that's based on a number of variables.

This is just my opinion but most women when faced with a possible violent situation would be submissive to a point, not wanted to incite a possible attacker to the point where they won't run or shout. That is until that point where they believe their life to be in danger and every effort would have been made to get away or fight back.
The lack of noise might have meant she knew her killer and the actual attack could have came out of nowhere, she wasn't prepared or expecting the course of action from her killer, that said there was time when she did fight back , the bruises on the hands would suggest she hit back but where she hit would prove a problem concerning marking the killer.

The prosecution said that Jodi had discovered Luke had another girlfriend well I don't know many women who would be subdued enough in that situation where they wouldn't have made a noise , she would have been arguing with Luke for the whole duration they were together and of course we have no witness to any argument .

[nugnug]

not ncasarly scratches but they would of been marked in some way im sure theyre would be some sighns of a struggel on them i know it was a man struggeling with a 14 year old girl but she was big for her age and the forensics show she put up a fight.

[sandra L]

we know the ground was such  that footprints were cast and wasnt it DD that suggested one was heading in the direction of Newbattle? luke wore very destinctive shoes ones that would have an almost unique footprint, there would have been other forms of organic forensics that may have put the killer at the crime scene so not all blood it was impossible to be forensically free of that crime and have commited it.

Why would the police even have needed DD to tell them such a thing? When Luke went over the wall and turned left, in the direction Mia had alerted on the other side of the wall, guess what direction his boot prints would have been heading... you got it! Newbattle.

If Luke had been at the actual scene, i.e. where Jodi's body was found, as you say, the very distinctive tread marks would have been obvious. But Luke didn't approach the body - he stopped at the large tree several feet from the body, as did SK.

The shoe/boot prints recovered did not match Luke's boots (I've never seen anything that conclusively says they did not match SK's, even though the first (and only) item requested from any of the family search trio that night was SK's trainers.) Again, bizarrely, this was several hours later and, instead of the police collecting alternative footwear from his home, SK was allowed to go home, change his shoes, and return with his trainers to give to the police.

[sandra L]

This is the same SK who said he was wearing a green top on the evening of the murder, but, over a week later, handed in a grey top when asked to hand in the clothing he was wearing that night. All of his clothes, and JaJ's and AW's had been washed by then

[gordo30]

Sandra bruising needs blood pressure for a bruise to become visible so after say 10 secs after death I.e no pulse a bruise wouldn't come through, the bruising on the hands were they pronounced , was there anything suggesting that Jodi had been gagged?