What if?

[maggie]

Whoa! Steady on. I repeat, better than what, and whilst in all probability you're right, I don't believe that there's any way of knowing what their previous had been OR whether one had ever previously struck the other. As for suicide being a mortal sin. I believe the to be the case with Roman Catholics but I have no idea if it applies to Anglo Catholics and I have serious doubts that Sheila, as she veered far more towards the esoteric, was one of their number. Very recently she had believed she was a white witch. I believe Sheila was terrified of not believing in anything, thus confirming that June was right about her being the Devil's child, that she took on board as a safe guard, aspects of all religions.

No April suicide is not a sin in Anglican religion, it is only in the Catholic religion. 

[Patti]

No one can make me believe that things were improving for Sheila at the time of the murders! Whaat did she have to look forward to? Her career was over, she couldn´t even keep a cleaning job, her boys were not with her, Colin was in love with someone else, she did drugs.
It isn´t SPLENDID, is it? I feel so bad for her, I think I would have liked Sheila, she deserved better.

Aww She certainly deserved a few hugs and a bit of love didn't she.  Sadly,things were not right for her. Had there been she would have had her children back and reached some normality in her life.  Did she likk her family though? Had she had enough? Was this the turning point in her life? Or was she made a scapegoat? Major questions for me and no one can answer them....

[scipio_usmc]

No April suicide is not a sin in Anglican religion, it is only in the Catholic religion. 

Since when?  It is because it was considered a sin that suicide was made a crime in England.

Until recently those who committed suicide could not receive an Anglican burial.  That was changed and an Anglican burial is now permitted but a different burial rite is used than for ordinary funerals and it is still considered a sin. Self-murder is the exact sin.

 

[maggie]

Since when?  It is because it was considered a sin that suicide was made a crime in England.

Until recently those who committed suicide could not receive an Anglican burial.  That was changed and an Anglican burial is now permitted but a different burial rite is used than for ordinary funerals and it is still considered a sin. Self-murder is the exact sin.

Sorry scipio technically the internet may tell you that but I know suicides who are buried in hallowed ground.  Christians who do not accept the old testament law could never turn away from people who have committed suicide in despair when everything about Christianity is really about love.  You are wrong about that, maybe high church, political Christians have a different attitude but in reality suicides are buried next to other dead, there is no discrepancy.

[scipio_usmc]

Sorry scipio technically the internet may tell you that but I know suicides who are buried in hallowed ground.  Christians who do not accept the old testament law could never turn away from people who have committed suicide in despair when everything about Christianity is really about love.  You are wrong about that, maybe high church, political Christians have a different attitude but in reality suicides are buried next to other dead, there is no discrepancy.

I have no need to turn to the Internet for that.  I learned it in a course on the history of England in college.  The Anglican religion was part of the history.  Until recent times the Anglican Church was closer to Catholocism than most protestant sects and suicide is a sin unless it results from an accident and is unintentional.

There have been significant diverges with respect to gays and women becomeing clergy but these are relatively new and don't go to core beliefs about sin.

If there was a drastic change where suicide was removed as a sin according to Anglican doctrine then it was after the murders.

The things you speak about regarding God not turning away peopel has no bearing on whether it is considered a sin only a change in doctrine that resulted in those who commit suicide being able to have funerals and christian burials and today that is universal in the Christian World so far as I know.  That doesn't mean it is not a sin though and murder of others is even more grave.  Or did you forget you are claiming she killed 4 other people?

[maggie]

I have no need to turn to the Internet for that.  I learned it in a course on the history of England in college.  The Anglican religion was part of the history.  Until recent times the Anglican Church was closer to Catholocism than most protestant sects and suicide is a sin unless it results from an accident and is unintentional.

There have been significant diverges with respect to gays and women becomeing clergy but these are relatively new and don't go to core beliefs about sin.

If there was a drastic change where suicide was removed as a sin according to Anglican doctrine then it was after the murders.

The things you speak about regarding God not turning away peopel has no bearing on whether it is considered a sin only a change in doctrine that resulted in those who commit suicide being able to have funerals and christian burials and today that is universal in the Christian World so far as I know.  That doesn't mean it is not a sin though and murder of others is even more grave.  Or did you forget you are claiming she killed 4 other people?

No I did not forget that but mainly people are a little more forgiving than you betray.  Religion per se is not old fashioned God fearing Christianity and most people are not rednecks but have compassion and understanding in this country.  You paint a picture of something pretty much long past apart from in certain sects of the church. 
As far as murder is concerned no I have not forgotten and why should I any more than you have but by the same belief Sheila was a very sick woman and therefore was not responsible for her actions unless you believe she brought on her own illness. Even if she did then you are in to a huge debate anyway.
As compassion is the basis of the modern Christian church what is your answer???

[scipio_usmc]

No I did not forget that but mainly people are a little more forgiving than you betray.  Religion per se is not old fashioned God fearing Christianity and most people are not rednecks but have compassion and understanding in this country.  You paint a picture of something pretty much long past apart from in certain sects of the church. 
As far as murder is concerned no I have not forgotten and why should I any more than you have but by the same belief Sheila was a very sick woman and therefore was not responsible for her actions unless you believe she brought on her own illness. Even if she did then you are in to a huge debate anyway.
As compassion is the basis of the modern Christian church what is your answer???

Having compassion doesn't eliminate what is considered sinful behavior or eliminate the need to repent.  If one has problems so turns to religion it is even less likely they will commit murder.  The claim was that maybe she would have delusions about all the victims being the devil but she had no delusions  about them even during her relapse.  If anything she would have killed Freddie sinc ehe was the one she saw as the devil. 

Religion offers hope it doesn't make one suicidal. Depression leads to suicide. Women who commit murder suicide typically kill their kids for one of 2 reasons out of spite so that their spouse can't have them or because they feel their kids will have a touch life without them and they think they are sparing them a hard life of having to be raised in a foster home. Women usually kill themselves when someone they love leaves them or financial problems or something similar that results in severe depression and feleing hopelessness.  Those they are responsible to care for tend to be the ones taken with them if they kill others instead of just committing suicide. Killing parents as well is not part of this unless their parents are old and the person committing suicide is the caretaker. They rarely kill the person who is the cause of their problems.  The often kill those they are responsible for so that they can't use having responsibilities as an excuse to not kill themselves.   

She was not taking care of her parents if anything it was the other way around. Nothing in this case fits the murder suicide paradigm. 

Factoring in religion into the matter giving her new hope and a new found relationship with her mother makes it even less likely.

But there is no need to wonder because she can't have shot herself and can't have moved her own body after she was dead.  Someone else did it before her blood dried and the only one who would be in a position to do so is her killer. 

 

[maggie]

Having compassion doesn't eliminate what is considered sinful behavior or eliminate the need to repent.  If one has problems so turns to religion it is even less likely they will commit murder.  The claim was that maybe she would have delusions about all the victims being the devil but she had no delusions  about them even during her relapse.  If anything she would have killed Freddie sinc ehe was the one she saw as the devil. 

Religion offers hope it doesn't make one suicidal. Depression leads to suicide. Women who commit murder suicide typically kill their kids for one of 2 reasons out of spite so that their spouse can't have them or because they feel their kids will have a touch life without them and they think they are sparing them a hard life of having to be raised in a foster home. Women usually kill themselves when someone they love leaves them or financial problems or something similar that results in severe depression and feleing hopelessness.  Those they are responsible to care for tend to be the ones taken with them if they kill others instead of just committing suicide. Killing parents as well is not part of this unless their parents are old and the person committing suicide is the caretaker. They rarely kill the person who is the cause of their problems.  The often kill those they are responsible for so that they can't use having responsibilities as an excuse to not kill themselves.   

She was not taking care of her parents if anything it was the other way around. Nothing in this case fits the murder suicide paradigm. 

Factoring in religion into the matter giving her new hope and a new found relationship with her mother makes it even less likely.

But there is no need to wonder because she can't have shot herself and can't have moved her own body after she was dead.  Someone else did it before her blood dried and the only one who would be in a position to do so is her killer. 

 

It is very late scipio and I cannot take this on now but I can say my personal experience tells me that a psychotic person can be normal one minute and  be killing themselves or others the next minute.  The switch is that fast.  Some people on this forum have experienced such tragedies and they deserve their experiences to be appreciated and respected.  They do not just join out of some adoration for a young Jeremy Bamber being a bit good looking.  They are not Bamberettes but more people of courage. 

[maggie]

Having compassion doesn't eliminate what is considered sinful behavior or eliminate the need to repent.  If one has problems so turns to religion it is even less likely they will commit murder.  The claim was that maybe she would have delusions about all the victims being the devil but she had no delusions  about them even during her relapse.  If anything she would have killed Freddie sinc ehe was the one she saw as the devil. 

Religion offers hope it doesn't make one suicidal. Depression leads to suicide. Women who commit murder suicide typically kill their kids for one of 2 reasons out of spite so that their spouse can't have them or because they feel their kids will have a touch life without them and they think they are sparing them a hard life of having to be raised in a foster home. Women usually kill themselves when someone they love leaves them or financial problems or something similar that results in severe depression and feleing hopelessness.  Those they are responsible to care for tend to be the ones taken with them if they kill others instead of just committing suicide. Killing parents as well is not part of this unless their parents are old and the person committing suicide is the caretaker. They rarely kill the person who is the cause of their problems.  The often kill those they are responsible for so that they can't use having responsibilities as an excuse to not kill themselves.   

She was not taking care of her parents if anything it was the other way around. Nothing in this case fits the murder suicide paradigm. 

Factoring in religion into the matter giving her new hope and a new found relationship with her mother makes it even less likely.

But there is no need to wonder because she can't have shot herself and can't have moved her own body after she was dead.  Someone else did it before her blood dried and the only one who would be in a position to do so is her killer. 
 

No religion is different than faith. Religion demands everything and faith asks nothing.  She was imbibed with religion as June was before her and so the wheel goes on but that kind of religion has little to do with faith and they were both victims. I do not believe there was ever a new beginning, these things take years, not minutes or hours or months.
However there is a certain kind of fire and brimstone that June believed in, had grown up with and which was not her fault or even her mother's before her but just the wheel of time. This possibly had an influence on Sheila but is also a symptom of paranoid schizophrenia.  It seems there is often no real connection but it is a symptom quite often that such sufferers struggle with good and evil, the devil and Jesus.  The most dangerous and violent PS sufferers often have strong symptoms of religious hysteria.

[Adam]

It is very late scipio and I cannot take this on now but I can say my personal experience tells me that a psychotic person can be normal one minute and  be killing themselves or others the next minute.  The switch is that fast.  Some people on this forum have experienced such tragedies and they deserve their experiences to be appreciated and respected.  They do not just join out of some adoration for a young Jeremy Bamber being a bit good looking.  They are not Bamberettes but more people of courage.

Scipio said Sheilas illness meant it was much more likely she would  go into a crazy rage during dinner that night. There were people around and her parents were alledgedly overriding Colin Caffell and talking about getting the twins fostered. Sheila was apparently non responsive.

It is much less likely she would suddenly wake up in the middle of the night & get a downstairs rifle.

[mike tesko]

Scipio said Sheilas illness meant it was much more likely she would  go into a crazy rage during dinner that night. There were people around and her parents were alledgedly overriding Colin Caffell and talking about getting the twins fostered. Sheila was apparently non responsive.

It is much less likely she would suddenly wake up in the middle of the night & get a downstairs rifle.

Hi Adam,

So, the contents of Sheila's stomach were full, so where does that leave Scipio's scenario?

[Jane]

Scipio said Sheilas illness meant it was much more likely she would  go into a crazy rage during dinner that night. There were people around and her parents were alledgedly overriding Colin Caffell and talking about getting the twins fostered. Sheila was apparently non responsive.

It is much less likely she would suddenly wake up in the middle of the night & get a downstairs rifle.

Scipio says!!! He may be many things but the last word in psychiatric evaluation, he isn't.

[Jane]

I have no need to turn to the Internet for that.  I learned it in a course on the history of England in college.  The Anglican religion was part of the history.  Until recent times the Anglican Church was closer to Catholocism than most protestant sects and suicide is a sin unless it results from an accident and is unintentional.

There have been significant diverges with respect to gays and women becomeing clergy but these are relatively new and don't go to core beliefs about sin.

If there was a drastic change where suicide was removed as a sin according to Anglican doctrine then it was after the murders.

The things you speak about regarding God not turning away peopel has no bearing on whether it is considered a sin only a change in doctrine that resulted in those who commit suicide being able to have funerals and christian burials and today that is universal in the Christian World so far as I know.  That doesn't mean it is not a sin though and murder of others is even more grave.  Or did you forget you are claiming she killed 4 other people?

As you say, Scipio, the Anglican Church IS a part of out history since Henry viii got the hots for Anne Boleyn. Thankfully now also consigned to history are some of it's -man made NOT God given- tenets. There is a very subtle divide now between Anglo Catholic and ROMAN Catholic, but a far larger divide between Anglo Catholic and THE Church of England. There are blurred lines regarding  the legality of suicide. Samaritans wouldn't consider contacting the police to go to a potential suicide without the client's permission, rather, they would consider the client's wishes to be ABOVE the law. To the best of MY knowledge, in my own life time, THE Church of England hasn't regarded as illegal the taking of ones own life, however, this discussion is entire academic because it's HIGHLY unlikely that Sheila was actually an adherent of ANY established faith.

[lebaleb]

Aww She certainly deserved a few hugs and a bit of love didn't she.  Sadly,things were not right for her. Had there been she would have had her children back and reached some normality in her life.  Did she likk her family though? Had she had enough? Was this the turning point in her life? Or was she made a scapegoat? Major questions for me and no one can answer them....

How would she feel knowing June wanted to send her to an institution for a 'holiday'.
My cousin was strangled by her husband. They had offered to send an ambulance to take him to the mental hospital because he was having a bad psychotic episode, but my cousin thought it better if she drove him. Along the road he snapped. He was aware of what was happening and freely admitted that he had strangled her. He has an incurable illness and was powerless to stop himself.

[Jane]

How would she feel knowing June wanted to send her to an institution for a 'holiday'.
My cousin was strangled by her husband. They had offered to send an ambulance to take him to the mental hospital because he was having a bad psychotic episode, but my cousin thought it better if she drove him. Along the road he snapped. He was aware of what was happening and freely admitted that he had strangled her. He has an incurable illness and was powerless to stop himself.

Lebaleb hello. SO tragic but STILL these things keep happening and STILL the highly knowledgeable Scipio would have us believe that because the expert he consulted provided him with certain facts, Sheila could NEVER have done this thing. Had ANY of those who have killed because of mental illness PREVIOUSLY killed. Had the sweet old lady who clawed out my step ma in laws eye EVER previously exhibited such violent behaviour? Of COURSE she hadn't. Each psychotic episode is individual, NOT a yardstick by which future episodes can be safely measured.