Author Topic: Question Re 'Firearms Team Are In Conversation'  (Read 27532 times)

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Offline Patti

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Re: Question Re 'Firearms Team Are In Conversation'
« Reply #255 on: October 23, 2013, 11:20:AM »
05.25               Firearms team are in conversation with a person from inside the farm

05.29               From CA7 – Challenge to persons inside house met with no response


You could read it two ways. Firstly that there were a conversation with a person inside. Secondly 4 minutes later this person was challenged to come out and that they had no response..... :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\

Its a long time 4 minutes. I suppose there is not a document that supports the arrangements by the raid team or Adam's.   :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\

No-Bits

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Re: Question Re 'Firearms Team Are In Conversation'
« Reply #256 on: October 23, 2013, 11:29:AM »
Its a long time 4 minutes. I suppose there is not a document that supports the arrangements by the raid team or Adam's.   :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\

It's not that long, it's less than five minutes.  :-\

Offline Patti

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Re: Question Re 'Firearms Team Are In Conversation'
« Reply #257 on: October 23, 2013, 11:39:AM »
It's not that long, it's less than five minutes.  :-\

Ant you got nowt to do lol  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Offline Patti

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Re: Question Re 'Firearms Team Are In Conversation'
« Reply #258 on: October 23, 2013, 11:53:AM »
Yes I probably do.  :-[  ;D

Hey, 4 minutes is a long time....But time flies by when you are on here. I'll go on for a hour and by the time you look up at the clock which is ten minutes fast, its been 3 hours lol  ;D ;D ;D ;D

No-Bits

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Re: Question Re 'Firearms Team Are In Conversation'
« Reply #259 on: October 23, 2013, 11:59:AM »
Hey, 4 minutes is a long time....But time flies by when you are on here. I'll go on for a hour and by the time you look up at the clock which is ten minutes fast, its been 3 hours lol  ;D ;D ;D ;D

Aye, it can be a bit like that at times.  ???

Offline Patti

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Re: Question Re 'Firearms Team Are In Conversation'
« Reply #260 on: October 23, 2013, 12:05:PM »
Aye, it can be a bit like that at times.  ???

Hartley my dear, you have been around for some time on here. Can I ask you if there is anything in your opinion that does not ring true in respect of this case???? Don't bugger off will you lol  ;D ;D ;D ;D

No-Bits

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Re: Question Re 'Firearms Team Are In Conversation'
« Reply #261 on: October 23, 2013, 12:09:PM »
Hartley my dear, you have been around for some time on here. Can I ask you if there is anything in your opinion that does not ring true in respect of this case???? Don't bugger off will you lol  ;D ;D ;D ;D

Can you rephrase the question, I'm not quite sure what you are asking.  ???

Offline Patti

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Re: Question Re 'Firearms Team Are In Conversation'
« Reply #262 on: October 23, 2013, 12:19:PM »
Can you rephrase the question, I'm not quite sure what you are asking.  ???

OK. Is there anything that you think might not support Jeremy's guilt?  :) :) :) :)

No-Bits

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Re: Question Re 'Firearms Team Are In Conversation'
« Reply #263 on: October 23, 2013, 12:22:PM »
OK. Is there anything that you think might not support Jeremy's guilt?  :) :) :) :)

That's a little open ended, do you mean like information contained in Jeremys witness statements, which if true would not support his guilt?

Offline Patti

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Re: Question Re 'Firearms Team Are In Conversation'
« Reply #264 on: October 23, 2013, 12:32:PM »
That's a little open ended, do you mean like information contained in Jeremys witness statements, which if true would not support his guilt?

Is there anything that you have come across that makes you doubt Jeremy being guilty...in all the evidence you have read.....For example do you believe everything that Julie M said?  Do you believe Dovey when he said a police officer did attend the bank with the two girls and two weeks later that same police officer cam back to take a statement from me.  Do you believe in everything that Stan Jones did and said?  Things like that.  Sorry for not making it clear I am a bit neurotic today lol  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Offline grahameb

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Re: Question Re 'Firearms Team Are In Conversation'
« Reply #265 on: October 23, 2013, 12:37:PM »
Is there anything that you have come across that makes you doubt Jeremy being guilty...in all the evidence you have read.....For example do you believe everything that Julie M said?  Do you believe Dovey when he said a police officer did attend the bank with the two girls and two weeks later that same police officer cam back to take a statement from me.  Do you believe in everything that Stan Jones did and said?  Things like that.  Sorry for not making it clear I am a bit neurotic today lol  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
What things? Seeing she changed her testimony as her criminal participation became clear. Plus they conveniently glossed over her lies about a hit man and rather blamed Jeremy instead of her lies. The fact remains that she was the one who said it and not Jeremy. Jeremy said nothing about a hit man. So easy as I have found out today to shift the blame to the innocent party. ;)

No-Bits

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Re: Question Re 'Firearms Team Are In Conversation'
« Reply #266 on: October 23, 2013, 02:05:PM »
Is there anything that you have come across that makes you doubt Jeremy being guilty...in all the evidence you have read.....For example do you believe everything that Julie M said?  Do you believe Dovey when he said a police officer did attend the bank with the two girls and two weeks later that same police officer cam back to take a statement from me.  Do you believe in everything that Stan Jones did and said?  Things like that.  Sorry for not making it clear I am a bit neurotic today lol  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Your examples don't appear to relate to your questions, but I'll provide a brief answer as best I can, then we can pick out particular points if you wish.

Q1: Is there anything that you have come across that makes you doubt Jeremy being guilty.

A: I knew almost nothing about the case until a few years ago, in fact I can't put my hand on my heart and say that I was actually even aware of the cases existence before that time.
For reasons that I won't go into, I became aware of the case together with the claims that it was a massive miscarriage of justice, so rather than listen to other peoples views, be it friends or family or articles in newspapers, documentaries or films, I decided to set about looking at it on my own terms to see where I stood, where my opinions and views lay. To this date, I have never read any of the books associated with the case, Wilkes, Lomax', Collins, none of them.
At first I read on the various forums and JB's official site(s), different claims which alledgedly supported his innocence, and to say I was shocked is an understatement, the various claims on the face of it certainly had substance and I really struggled to come up with plausable alternative scenarios. So at that stage I did contemplate the seemingly very real possibility that Jeremy was innocent of the crimes he had been convicted of.
I lost interest in the case until one day I accidentally stumbled upon this very forum, I seem to recall I was redirected here from a link given in a comment to some news article, it was the first time that I had seen the case actually debated and discussed, rather than there just being some sort of rhetoric ramblings from campaigners.
Mike provided many documents at that time and there were further documents on the SleuthingForJustice site. After reading every statement, report or other case related document I could get my hands on, I started asking questions on the forum, a member by the name of 'Kaldin' was a big influence at that stage.
I very quickly discovered that the various claims being made by JB's supporters, were not quite what they seemed, the two phone logs were simply a record of the same conversation, one recorded by the sender, the other by the receiver. The 'police were in conversation', turned out to be nothing of the kind. The female body seen through the kitchen window turned out to be mistaken identity. One by one the various claims were stripped away and I actually felt insulted that I had been lied to, supporters of Jeremy were actively trying to mislead people by cherry picking things and showing them out of context, and then just coming up with out and out lies about other things that they couldn't possibly know or couldn't possibly be true.
So from that point on, I had the opinion that Jeremy was indeed guilty, I intended to stay open minded enough for that opinion to change, but the more and more details I became aware of, the stronger my opinion became.
So I suppose the short answer would have been: No, or at least not since I educated myself on the details of the case.


Q2: For example do you believe everything that Julie M said?  Do you believe Dovey when he said a police officer did attend the bank with the two girls and two weeks later that same police officer cam back to take a statement from me.  Do you believe in everything that Stan Jones did and said?  Things like that.  Sorry for not making it clear I am a bit neurotic today

I tend to come at things from the other way, rather than think about whether something was true or not, I would simply have no opinion until it was shown to me that something else had actually taken place.
I cannot possibly know whether a person is being or has been honest, or not, without evidence to support it, so I am not in a position to to be able to believe or not believe everything a person has said, and consequently I often simply have no opinion.

To pick out your three examples:
A) Julie Mugford. Whilst I believe the essence of her evidence, I believe she knew a lot more, a lot earlier than she had let on, quite how much I do not know. Obviously this is just me speculating.

B) Dovey. The trouble with this is that your information only comes from the 2002 statement which I posted on this forum. From what I understand and I have only heard this second or even third hand, during the appeal Dovey had a complete memory breakdown and could not recall any of the details surrounding the incident, the 2002 statement is in contrast to the original evidence. So whilst there may be more to it, I suspect that there is not.

C) Stan Jones. There isn't anything in particular that jumps out at me with SBJ, is there a particular incident you had in mind?

« Last Edit: October 23, 2013, 02:28:PM by No-Bits »

Offline Patti

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Re: Question Re 'Firearms Team Are In Conversation'
« Reply #267 on: October 23, 2013, 03:13:PM »
Your examples don't appear to relate to your questions, but I'll provide a brief answer as best I can, then we can pick out particular points if you wish.

Q1: Is there anything that you have come across that makes you doubt Jeremy being guilty.

A: I knew almost nothing about the case until a few years ago, in fact I can't put my hand on my heart and say that I was actually even aware of the cases existence before that time.
For reasons that I won't go into, I became aware of the case together with the claims that it was a massive miscarriage of justice, so rather than listen to other peoples views, be it friends or family or articles in newspapers, documentaries or films, I decided to set about looking at it on my own terms to see where I stood, where my opinions and views lay. To this date, I have never read any of the books associated with the case, Wilkes, Lomax', Collins, none of them.
At first I read on the various forums and JB's official site(s), different claims which alledgedly supported his innocence, and to say I was shocked is an understatement, the various claims on the face of it certainly had substance and I really struggled to come up with plausable alternative scenarios. So at that stage I did contemplate the seemingly very real possibility that Jeremy was innocent of the crimes he had been convicted of.
I lost interest in the case until one day I accidentally stumbled upon this very forum, I seem to recall I was redirected here from a link given in a comment to some news article, it was the first time that I had seen the case actually debated and discussed, rather than there just being some sort of rhetoric ramblings from campaigners.
Mike provided many documents at that time and there were further documents on the SleuthingForJustice site. After reading every statement, report or other case related document I could get my hands on, I started asking questions on the forum, a member by the name of 'Kaldin' was a big influence at that stage.
I very quickly discovered that the various claims being made by JB's supporters, were not quite what they seemed, the two phone logs were simply a record of the same conversation, one recorded by the sender, the other by the receiver. The 'police were in conversation', turned out to be nothing of the kind. The female body seen through the kitchen window turned out to be mistaken identity. One by one the various claims were stripped away and I actually felt insulted that I had been lied to, supporters of Jeremy were actively trying to mislead people by cherry picking things and showing them out of context, and then just coming up with out and out lies about other things that they couldn't possibly know or couldn't possibly be true.
So from that point on, I had the opinion that Jeremy was indeed guilty, I intended to stay open minded enough for that opinion to change, but the more and more details I became aware of, the stronger my opinion became.
So I suppose the short answer would have been: No, or at least not since I educated myself on the details of the case.


Q2: For example do you believe everything that Julie M said?  Do you believe Dovey when he said a police officer did attend the bank with the two girls and two weeks later that same police officer cam back to take a statement from me.  Do you believe in everything that Stan Jones did and said?  Things like that.  Sorry for not making it clear I am a bit neurotic today

I tend to come at things from the other way, rather than think about whether something was true or not, I would simply have no opinion until it was shown to me that something else had actually taken place.
I cannot possibly know whether a person is being or has been honest, or not, without evidence to support it, so I am not in a position to to be able to believe or not believe everything a person has said, and consequently I often simply have no opinion.

To pick out your three examples:
A) Julie Mugford. Whilst I believe the essence of her evidence, I believe she knew a lot more, a lot earlier than she had let on, quite how much I do not know. Obviously this is just me speculating.

B) Dovey. The trouble with this is that your information only comes from the 2002 statement which I posted on this forum. From what I understand and I have only heard this second or even third hand, during the appeal Dovey had a complete memory breakdown and could not recall any of the details surrounding the incident, the 2002 statement is in contrast to the original evidence. So whilst there may be more to it, I suspect that there is not.

C) Stan Jones. There isn't anything in particular that jumps out at me with SBJ, is there a particular incident you had in mind?

Brilliant post Hartley and well said. I applaud you for suggesting that some people mislead the truth. This ridiculous idea of twisting  facts is to convince the reader and attract support.  I really think this sort of rubbish has let Jeremy down and this is one of the reason people turn their backs on him eventually. 

It fascinates me that facts, truth and evidence gets so distorted, it becomes impossible to believe anymore.  I'm also fascinated that we all differ in our opinions and, we can all distort things or add our own little bit to it.  I suppose everything you read can be challenged or seen differently and those that listen make their mind up over which argument holds true or which is the most powerful. 

I am not 100% sure Jeremy did kill his family and I am not 100% sure Sheila did either and that is the truth.  Out of the two I find that given Sheila's background she would be the most likely one to have done it.  If there was other forensic evidence like a hair from Jeremy in the main bedroom or in the twins room...If there were fibers from his clothing or DNA found or if Jeremy had any marks on his hands/face or body....I would probably think that he had killed his family. 

On the other hand Sheila looked so clean, she had no back spatter on her from any of the victims. She suffered from mental illness and had spoken about suicide and many more things she said which I wont go in to.  The argument of her having a shower is speculation, but not beyond possibility, but then where were her clothes?

Then comes greed/money/land and jealousy......I doubt Jeremy alone is guilty of that. Then the silencer how complex is that...

Anyway good post Hartley..... ;D ;D ;D ;D

If the whole world was the jury, I'd

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Re: Question Re 'Firearms Team Are In Conversation'
« Reply #268 on: October 23, 2013, 03:20:PM »
Your examples don't appear to relate to your questions, but I'll provide a brief answer as best I can, then we can pick out particular points if you wish.

Q1: Is there anything that you have come across that makes you doubt Jeremy being guilty.

A: I knew almost nothing about the case until a few years ago, in fact I can't put my hand on my heart and say that I was actually even aware of the cases existence before that time.
For reasons that I won't go into, I became aware of the case together with the claims that it was a massive miscarriage of justice, so rather than listen to other peoples views, be it friends or family or articles in newspapers, documentaries or films, I decided to set about looking at it on my own terms to see where I stood, where my opinions and views lay. To this date, I have never read any of the books associated with the case, Wilkes, Lomax', Collins, none of them.
At first I read on the various forums and JB's official site(s), different claims which alledgedly supported his innocence, and to say I was shocked is an understatement, the various claims on the face of it certainly had substance and I really struggled to come up with plausable alternative scenarios. So at that stage I did contemplate the seemingly very real possibility that Jeremy was innocent of the crimes he had been convicted of.
I lost interest in the case until one day I accidentally stumbled upon this very forum, I seem to recall I was redirected here from a link given in a comment to some news article, it was the first time that I had seen the case actually debated and discussed, rather than there just being some sort of rhetoric ramblings from campaigners.
Mike provided many documents at that time and there were further documents on the SleuthingForJustice site. After reading every statement, report or other case related document I could get my hands on, I started asking questions on the forum, a member by the name of 'Kaldin' was a big influence at that stage.
I very quickly discovered that the various claims being made by JB's supporters, were not quite what they seemed, the two phone logs were simply a record of the same conversation, one recorded by the sender, the other by the receiver. The 'police were in conversation', turned out to be nothing of the kind. The female body seen through the kitchen window turned out to be mistaken identity. One by one the various claims were stripped away and I actually felt insulted that I had been lied to, supporters of Jeremy were actively trying to mislead people by cherry picking things and showing them out of context, and then just coming up with out and out lies about other things that they couldn't possibly know or couldn't possibly be true.
So from that point on, I had the opinion that Jeremy was indeed guilty, I intended to stay open minded enough for that opinion to change, but the more and more details I became aware of, the stronger my opinion became.
So I suppose the short answer would have been: No, or at least not since I educated myself on the details of the case.


Q2: For example do you believe everything that Julie M said?  Do you believe Dovey when he said a police officer did attend the bank with the two girls and two weeks later that same police officer cam back to take a statement from me.  Do you believe in everything that Stan Jones did and said?  Things like that.  Sorry for not making it clear I am a bit neurotic today

I tend to come at things from the other way, rather than think about whether something was true or not, I would simply have no opinion until it was shown to me that something else had actually taken place.
I cannot possibly know whether a person is being or has been honest, or not, without evidence to support it, so I am not in a position to to be able to believe or not believe everything a person has said, and consequently I often simply have no opinion.

To pick out your three examples:
A) Julie Mugford. Whilst I believe the essence of her evidence, I believe she knew a lot more, a lot earlier than she had let on, quite how much I do not know. Obviously this is just me speculating.

B) Dovey. The trouble with this is that your information only comes from the 2002 statement which I posted on this forum. From what I understand and I have only heard this second or even third hand, during the appeal Dovey had a complete memory breakdown and could not recall any of the details surrounding the incident, the 2002 statement is in contrast to the original evidence. So whilst there may be more to it, I suspect that there is not.

C) Stan Jones. There isn't anything in particular that jumps out at me with SBJ, is there a particular incident you had in mind?
What a great post no bits thanks for that. Believe it or believe it not you were one of the reasons i looked at the case so differently, i started to look at it funnel vision instead of tunnel vision? As you said Kaldin was up there as a great poster, i first noticed that the sighting at the window and the conversation was a total mislead. Can anyone tell me if it is mentioned in any of jeremys statements with or without the solicitor present i might have missed it?

Offline susan

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Re: Question Re 'Firearms Team Are In Conversation'
« Reply #269 on: October 23, 2013, 03:29:PM »
Hello Patti very good response to the post No Bits put up.  We human beings to a certain extent all believe what we perceive the truth to be.  My knowledge on the Bamber case is very limited but I have not seen hard evidence indicating Jeremy is guilty as indeed is Sheila.  I see so many flaws in the theories pointing to Jeremy and Sheila I try to keep an open mind but whoever was responsible for these horrendous murders I feel is not Jeremy Bamber.  Going onto Mason Doyle's book he has promised us a book based on facts and not speculation or conjecture and I feel with his record as a writer we are going to get a true fair assessment of the murders at WHF and I for one cannot wait for the book as it will I am sure clear up so many confusing issues in my head.