Is this how it's going to work then?

[susan]

Morning tyler

must say you are one of the best posters on this forum you are knowledgeable always polite and post with respect for others and we all love youxx

[lookout]

Morning tyler

must say you are one of the best posters on this forum you are knowledgeable always polite and post with respect for others and we all love youxx

Morning Susan,,I fully agree with you about tyler and I too find her very knowledgeable and polite too. To my knowledge,she has never said anything out of place at any time.

In my case,,if one person had pm'd me and pulled me up over something they'd objected to,then I'd have had the greatest respect for them,,but instead,it's been bubbling under the surface and I've remained a target as a reminder for future disagreements on the forum, which usually have no relevence to the present debate. Why this should happen,I don't know,,but it doesn't make for an enjoyable time for myself.
There has been,in the past,,some terrible remarks made against me,by a few people,,but I've let it go. I've also been a target for discussion on the red forum,,and not in a nice way either,,,by the very ones who have been on this forum complaining about my posts on here.!
To also say that I've been responsible for someone leaving the forum is a downright lie,,because if it's the person who also posts on the red forum,,they're not even posting there either,,so that's something else which is unfounded.

Also,,I don't get any preferential treatment as far as the mods are concerned. I don't e-mail anyone off this forum at all only a friend from another site, who I wouldn't dream of saying anything to her because she wouldn't be interested, and who is also a staunch " guilty " supporter of Jeremy anyway,,,,nor do I do tittle-tattle or historical verbal abuse.!

[susan]

Morning lookout

I have on many occasions felt so sorry for you.  I know you are a tough lady but you like other people have feelings too.  The post that has been referred to that was posted by lebaleb I read it once then anything after that must have been deleted.  I have read some horrendous posts on here that went unchallenged but I will not quote them as better to let sleeping dogs lie other than dragging past posts onto the forum.  I know you to be a very honest lady that does not gossip in any shape or form and I myself have the utmost respect for you.  You say it as it is and I agree if posters found your posts to "strong" they should pm you and I know you would apologise.  You have of course come under attack as you are a great and loyal supporter of Mike(quite rightly so) and if posters have a problem with that I feel they should look within themselves and ask why that should bother them. You contribute so much to the forum and all I can say is rise above any attacks and carry on being the nice honest lady you are.xx

[lookout]

Morning lookout

I have on many occasions felt so sorry for you.  I know you are a tough lady but you like other people have feelings too.  The post that has been referred to that was posted by lebaleb I read it once then anything after that must have been deleted.  I have read some horrendous posts on here that went unchallenged but I will not quote them as better to let sleeping dogs lie other than dragging past posts onto the forum.  I know you to be a very honest lady that does not gossip in any shape or form and I myself have the utmost respect for you.  You say it as it is and I agree if posters found your posts to "strong" they should pm you and I know you would apologise.  You have of course come under attack as you are a great and loyal supporter of Mike(quite rightly so) and if posters have a problem with that I feel they should look within themselves and ask why that should bother them. You contribute so much to the forum and all I can say is rise above any attacks and carry on being the nice honest lady you are.xx

Aww,Susan,,what would this forum do without you.? You come up with the right words for any given situation in such a way as to be fair for both sides as it were. You're also very sharp-witted and many a time I've sat here laughing at what you've posted. You're a breath of fresh air,girl. xxxx
I would rather things fade into oblivion than to be dug up just to release anger,and always prefer to be told by pm rather than make a meal of it for others to join in the fray.That's bullying and should have been left behind in the schoolyard. It just shows up peoples inadequecies,and we don't want that.

[Lugg]

Morning Susan,,I fully agree with you about tyler and I too find her very knowledgeable and polite too. To my knowledge,she has never said anything out of place at any time.

In my case,,if one person had pm'd me and pulled me up over something they'd objected to,then I'd have had the greatest respect for them,,but instead,it's been bubbling under the surface and I've remained a target as a reminder for future disagreements on the forum, which usually have no relevence to the present debate. Why this should happen,I don't know,,but it doesn't make for an enjoyable time for myself.
There has been,in the past,,some terrible remarks made against me,by a few people,,but I've let it go. I've also been a target for discussion on the red forum,,and not in a nice way either,,,by the very ones who have been on this forum complaining about my posts on here.!
To also say that I've been responsible for someone leaving the forum is a downright lie,,because if it's the person who also posts on the red forum,,they're not even posting there either,,so that's something else which is unfounded.

Also,,I don't get any preferential treatment as far as the mods are concerned. I don't e-mail anyone off this forum at all only a friend from another site, who I wouldn't dream of saying anything to her because she wouldn't be interested, and who is also a staunch " guilty " supporter of Jeremy anyway,,,,nor do I do tittle-tattle or historical verbal abuse.!

It appears that the dead get more respect than the living these days lookout? One thing I have never been able to understand is the fact that Sheila gets sympathy for her mental disorders. Yet there are those who believe Jeremy to be guilty of murder and then categorize him as a psychopath have no sympathy for him? Yet according to them he is mentally derranged?

Psychopathy is a personality or mental disorder characterized partly by antisocial behavior, a diminished capacity for remorse, and poor behavioral controls. As a diagnostic category in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, psychopathy has been replaced by antisocial personality disorder (ASPD).

I wonder, is it because Sheila appears to be a "helpless" beautiful young lady who looks as if butter wouldn't melt in her mouth? And Jeremy isn't? Surely if as some think Jeremy is mentally ill, then why don't these people have sympathy for him. After all even RWB referred to Sheila as a nut case, or similar and according to her boyfriend her behaviour could be quite frightening at times. None describe Jeremy in those terms. But for some reason among the guilty group Sheila must be enshrined in respect, yet Jeremy who they term a psychopath and therefore mentally sick does not deserve such pity. Or are we like those humans who like cuddly animals and hate ugly ones, just because the animal is cuddly and pleasant to look at? I think it is our own souls we should search in this matter rather than Sheila and Jeremy's mental incapacity.

[susan]

Hi lookout

my aim in life is to create happiness if I can not misery (not sure my other half would agree with that ) You are quite right lookout everything should be left in the past and the forum should become a nice place to be this last while back I have gone off quite depressed at the way one human being can treat another.  Hey Ho upwards and onwards and thank you for your nice compliments much appreciatedxxx

[lookout]

It appears that the dead get more respect than the living these days lookout? One thing I have never been able to understand is the fact that Sheila gets sympathy for her mental disorders. Yet there are those who believe Jeremy to be guilty of murder and then categorize him as a psychopath have no sympathy for him? Yet according to them he is mentally derranged?  I wonder, is it because Sheila appears to be a "helpless" beautiful young lady who looks as if butter wouldn't melt in her mouth? And Jeremy isn't? Surely if as some think Jeremy is mentally ill, then why don't these people have sympathy for him. After all even RWB referred to Sheila as a nut case, or similar and according to her boyfriend her behaviour could be quite frightening at times. None describe Jeremy in those terms. But for some reason among the guilty group Sheila must be enshrined in respect, yet Jeremy who they term a psychopath and therefore mentally sick does not deserve such pity. Or are we like those humans who like cuddly animals and hate ugly ones, just because the animal is cuddly and pleasant to look at? I think it is our own souls we should search in this matter rather than Sheila and Jeremy's mental incapacity.

Hi Lugg, Good post,,,I've thought that many a time about the sheer differences in someone deceased and the other alive and incarcerated,,and inside,I've objected strongly at Jeremy having been called a psychopath/murderer and other things... I do have every sympathy for the mentally ill,,having had a belly-full of it last week off the forum where I had a spell of fearing for my life,,but that's another story. I shall be looking at mental illness in a different light. Those poor Bambers,June and Neville suffered every time Sheila was present. I couldn't cope with that,Lugg,,never knowing the minute,it's scary.

My main thoughts are for the living,in this case,,,and my annoyance that people can't see impending violence in those who have schizophrenia. Jeremy has been dealt the worse blow of all and I feel more than utterly sorry for him being caged up for something,( to my mind ) that he took no part in.

[susan]

Morning Lugg

that is an excellent post you have just made and I have thought so often what is actually going on you can't make rules for one and different ones for another and that is what is happening sad to say

[maggie]

Hi Lugg I agree that is an excellent post. Of course Jeremy has to be psychopathic/sociopathic for all the guilty theories to hold water. Without that belief their theories fall apart. I agree,  Sheila was mentally ill and dead therefore is harmless enough while Jeremy, alive is a threat and therefore a good target.
I do find it an insult to Sheila to deny her right to be mentally ill but rather make her into some sort of incapable  bimbo who 'couldn't put beans on toast'. If she had cancer or something she would be brave to cope. Whats the difference, only the stigma of mental illness imo
Sheila was seriously mentally ill, she never had recognition of her struggles in spite of psychosis to look after her sons. She wasn't a failure but she was failed by the system as were June, Neville and Jeremy.
Sheila, fairy princess Jeremy with his 'cruel handsomness' as the big bad wolf.
If you open your eyes and look at all the facts not just the ones that suit your personal theory it's very hard to believe Jeremy Bamber could have carried out these killings.

[Daniel_day]

Hi Lugg I agree that is an excellent post. Of course Jeremy has to be psychopathic/sociopathic for all the guilty theories to hold water. Without that belief their theories fall apart. I agree,  Sheila was mentally ill and dead therefore is harmless enough while Jeremy, alive is a threat and therefore a good target.
I do find it an insult to Sheila to deny her right to be mentally ill but rather make her into some sort of incapable  bimbo who 'couldn't put beans on toast'. If she had cancer or something she would be brave to cope. Whats the difference, only the stigma of mental illness imo
Sheila was seriously mentally ill, she never had recognition of her struggles in spite of psychosis to look after her sons. She wasn't a failure but she was failed by the system as were June, Neville and Jeremy.
Sheila, fairy princess Jeremy with his 'cruel handsomness' as the big bad wolf.
If you open your eyes and look at all the facts not just the ones that suit your personal theory it's very hard to believe Jeremy Bamber could have carried out these killings.

An interesting debate, but one that is, in my opinion way off the mark.  I have researched this and found that Psychopathy is a VERY different condition to mental illness. Psychopathy is a personality trait NOT a mental illness. Someone with schizophenia who has become psychotic, does not know the difference between right and wrong. A psychopath KNOWS the difference between right and wrong, but simply does not care. Psychopaths are rarely psychotic.
Psychopathy is a personality disorder whereas schizophrenia is a brain disorder with a distinct medical cause and they are NOT the same thing at all and therefore have to be treated and judged differently.
A schizophrenic is a mental illness. They have emotional blunting, intellectual deterioration, social isolation, disorganized speech and behavior, delusions, etc. This can be treated with medication.
A psychopath however, cannot be treated. There is no cure for psychopathy, the condition can only best be contained and managed if possible. Psychopathy, unlike untreated schizophenic individuals can function in polite society extremely well. They can appear charming, full of life and attractive to many. However, under the surface they are callous, superficial and totally without conscience, empathy or remorse. They rarely, if ever admit culpability for their crimes and are considered generally incapable of accepting responsibility for their own actions unless it further their own ends.
In short the two are NOT the same, and it is morally and scientifically incorrect to judge them as such.
 

[maggie]

I know they are not the same, i wasnt saying they were Daniel. My point about Sheila is that she has been almost denied the right to be ill because of the stigma attached.
To all intents and purposes however the guilty brigade want him to be Jeremy Bamber is not a pdychopath and has no other personality didorder. He passed a polygraph test you cannot take such a test if you're a psychpath. The test would have been abandoned.

[Daniel_day]

Hi Lugg I agree that is an excellent post. Of course Jeremy has to be psychopathic/sociopathic for all the guilty theories to hold water. Without that belief their theories fall apart. I agree,  Sheila was mentally ill and dead therefore is harmless enough while Jeremy, alive is a threat and therefore a good target.
I do find it an insult to Sheila to deny her right to be mentally ill but rather make her into some sort of incapable  bimbo who 'couldn't put beans on toast'. If she had cancer or something she would be brave to cope. Whats the difference, only the stigma of mental illness imo
Sheila was seriously mentally ill, she never had recognition of her struggles in spite of psychosis to look after her sons. She wasn't a failure but she was failed by the system as were June, Neville and Jeremy.
Sheila, fairy princess Jeremy with his 'cruel handsomness' as the big bad wolf.
If you open your eyes and look at all the facts not just the ones that suit your personal theory it's very hard to believe Jeremy Bamber could have carried out these killings.

Well that's exactly what we are here to find out Maggie. I do find some of you words slightly self-serving 'couldnt put beans on toast' you used as evidence of people thinking her some sort of  'incapable bimbo' I dont think anyone has EVER said this. What has been said is that the effects of her medication made her at times very uncoordinated, certainly not a bimbo as you have tried imply people have used. Come to think of it, I don't remember anyone saying that Sheila was a 'fairy princess or Bamber the 'big, bad wolf either? May I ask where you got this from?
Please read up on two distinct  conditions schizophrenia and psychopthy- one a mental illness and the other a personality disorder. One treatable the other not.
You last sentence may need reviewing in light of what has been said maggie

"If you open your eyes and look at all the facts not just the ones that suit your personal theory it's very hard to believe Jeremy Bamber could have carried out these killings"

Hmmm...

[Daniel_day]

I know they are not the same, i wasnt saying they were Daniel. My point about Sheila is that she has been almost denied the right to be ill because of the stigma attached.
To all intents and purposes however the guilty brigade want him to be Jeremy Bamber is not a pdychopath and has no other personality didorder. He passed a polygraph test you cannot take such a test if you're a psychpath. The test would have been abandoned.

An incorrect statement Maggie. Many psychopaths have taken and passed lie detector tests. Famously serial killer and psychopath Ted Bundy took and passed with flying colours several lie detector tests. The lie detector relies on reactions and emotions (i.e. stress from lying, fear, increases skin conductivity and heart rate) and as psychopaths have flattened affect (less strong emotions, especially less guilt/shame) then they have a far, far better chance of fooling a lie detector. Mind you, non-psychopaths have been known to easily pass them, they are not very reliable.
In short, the responses that psychopaths with exhib during a polygraph test are minimal compared to a non-psychopath. Normal responses to guilt, shame and embarassment are usually not present as the psychopath does not feel them in the first place.

[nugnug]

i see now evidence that sheila was uncoordinated other than the rather dubious word of the relatives.

he husband never mentioned this and he was the one that really knew her.

her illness would not of made her uncoordinated.

[killingeve]

An interesting debate, but one that is, in my opinion way off the mark.  I have researched this and found that Psychopathy is a VERY different condition to mental illness. Psychopathy is a personality trait NOT a mental illness. Someone with schizophenia who has become psychotic, does not know the difference between right and wrong. A psychopath KNOWS the difference between right and wrong, but simply does not care. Psychopaths are rarely psychotic.
Psychopathy is a personality disorder whereas schizophrenia is a brain disorder with a distinct medical cause and they are NOT the same thing at all and therefore have to be treated and judged differently.
A schizophrenic is a mental illness. They have emotional blunting, intellectual deterioration, social isolation, disorganized speech and behavior, delusions, etc. This can be treated with medication.
A psychopath however, cannot be treated. There is no cure for psychopathy, the condition can only best be contained and managed if possible. Psychopathy, unlike untreated schizophenic individuals can function in polite society extremely well. They can appear charming, full of life and attractive to many. However, under the surface they are callous, superficial and totally without conscience, empathy or remorse. They rarely, if ever admit culpability for their crimes and are considered generally incapable of accepting responsibility for their own actions unless it further their own ends.
In short the two are NOT the same, and it is morally and scientifically incorrect to judge them as such.

Hi DD

I think you will find that it is now generally accepted within professional circles that the main component of psychopathy is a lack of empathy.  If you're interested the following post contains some relevant info.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,4287.msg177928.html#msg177928

However interestingly those with autistic spectrum disorders tend to suffer a distinct lack of empathy and yet are rarely violent. 

I believe also there's evidence to suggest that those responsible for the financial crisis may have suffered from psychopathic traits ie lack of empathy for others in terms of customers, staff, shareholders and wider community.

I think the stereotypical psychopath eg Ian Brady is just part of the picture.