Author Topic: 'Nothing really substantively new....'  (Read 17595 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Caroline R

  • Guest
Re: 'Nothing really substantively new....'
« Reply #30 on: April 14, 2013, 02:19:PM »
I agree. I am not saying that something was done to the silencer by the relatives, I have no idea, but the mere fact that it was NOT found by the EP, but by a relative who had something to gain by a conviction of Jeremy, and that they had it in their possession (why did they not leave it where they found it, and immediately inform the police about it, so a crime scene technician could handle it from that point?)
By the sound of the statements it was fidgeted with by numerous hands until it came into possession of the EP.
I am not sure such evidence could be used in a trial today.

Also the date when it was found is in question and one of the relatives owned the exact same silencer!! There would be no way that it would be admissible today!!

Offline Bridget

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5065
Re: 'Nothing really substantively new....'
« Reply #31 on: April 14, 2013, 02:19:PM »
You misunderstand the rules of evidence and the Bar Code of Conduct.  There was nothing to stop Rivlin going down this route, it was a tactical decision which in my view was wrong.  Rivlin did not need to rest his entire defence upon the possibility of deliberate or accidental contamination of the silencer, he only needed to lay the basis for presenting it to the jury as a possibilty.  Instead he conceded that that the silencer must have been fitted to the rifle at some stage in the shootings and that concession was extremely damaging to JB.

 

I don't think I do at all, I'm not talking about accidental contamination, I'm talking about deliberate contamination for which there was no evidence. I also think he did go down the route of accidental contamination otherwise why was he asking RB whether or not he cut his finger. I think the reason he didn't go further down that route was because there was no credible explanation for it (or, to pay respect the various later theories, there was no credible explanation at the time). The flake which was tested was not the only blood in the silencer, there was also what was described as a large volume around the first few baffles. Much of the blood found was described as stains or smears, and so can only have got there when wet. It's hard to see how that could get there accidentally.
....just cos I eat worms...

Offline nugnug

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 17252
    • http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fjohnnyvoid.wordpress.com%2F&ei=WTdUUo3IM6mY0QWYz4GADg&usg=AFQjCNE-8xtZuPAZ52VkntYOokH5da5MIA&bvm=bv.5353710
Re: 'Nothing really substantively new....'
« Reply #32 on: April 14, 2013, 02:19:PM »
a lot of lawers dont seem to understand that reasonable doubt isn't good enough to win anymore.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2013, 02:21:PM by nugnug »

Offline Bridget

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5065
Re: 'Nothing really substantively new....'
« Reply #33 on: April 14, 2013, 02:22:PM »
Am I missing something here? I can't see the word "deliberate" in ngb's post? I have read the word "possibility". Must be my age again in missing words as I read.

Well if he's not talking about deliberate contamination then he must be arguing with someone other than me but quoting my posts.
....just cos I eat worms...

Offline nugnug

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 17252
    • http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fjohnnyvoid.wordpress.com%2F&ei=WTdUUo3IM6mY0QWYz4GADg&usg=AFQjCNE-8xtZuPAZ52VkntYOokH5da5MIA&bvm=bv.5353710
Re: 'Nothing really substantively new....'
« Reply #34 on: April 14, 2013, 02:27:PM »
why exactly did they want to take the silencer to bits in the first place for what reason.

Offline Bridget

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5065
Re: 'Nothing really substantively new....'
« Reply #35 on: April 14, 2013, 02:38:PM »
Conduct in Court

708. A barrister when conducting proceedings in Court:

(a) is personally responsible for the conduct and presentation of his case and must exercise personal judgement upon the substance and purpose of statements made and questions asked;

(b) must not unless invited to do so by the Court or when appearing before a tribunal where it is his duty to do so assert a personal opinion of the facts or the law;

(c) must ensure that the Court is informed of all relevant decisions and legislative provisions of which he is aware whether the effect is favourable or unfavourable towards the contention for which he argues;

(d) must bring any procedural irregularity to the attention of the Court during the hearing and not reserve such matter to be raised on appeal;

(e) must not adduce evidence obtained otherwise than from or through the client or devise facts which will assist in advancing the lay client's case;

(f) must not make a submission which he does not consider to be properly arguable;

(g) must not make statements or ask questions which are merely scandalous or intended or calculated only to vilify insult or annoy either a witness or some other person;

(h) must if possible avoid the naming in open Court of third parties whose character would thereby be impugned;

(i) must not by assertion in a speech impugn a witness whom he has had an opportunity to cross-examine unless in cross-examination he has given the witness an opportunity to answer the allegation;

(j) must not suggest that a victim, witness or other person is guilty of crime, fraud or misconduct or make any defamatory aspersion on the conduct of any other person or attribute to another person the crime or conduct of which his lay client is accused unless such allegations go to a matter in issue (including the credibility of the witness) which is material to the lay client's case and appear to him to be supported by reasonable grounds.
....just cos I eat worms...

Online ngb1066

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6671
Re: 'Nothing really substantively new....'
« Reply #36 on: April 14, 2013, 02:42:PM »
I don't think I do at all, I'm not talking about accidental contamination, I'm talking about deliberate contamination for which there was no evidence. I also think he did go down the route of accidental contamination otherwise why was he asking RB whether or not he cut his finger. I think the reason he didn't go further down that route was because there was no credible explanation for it (or, to pay respect the various later theories, there was no credible explanation at the time). The flake which was tested was not the only blood in the silencer, there was also what was described as a large volume around the first few baffles. Much of the blood found was described as stains or smears, and so can only have got there when wet. It's hard to see how that could get there accidentally.

With respect you do misunderstand.  There does not need to be any direct evidence to support a defence proposition.  The defence are entitled to present whatever arguments they like, however unlikely they may appear.  The only limitation on this is that if the defence want to suggest that a prosecution witness has lied or is guilty of interfering with evidence that witness must be given an opportunity to answer the allegation, i.e. defence counsel has an obligation to put the suggestion to the witness in cross examination.

« Last Edit: April 14, 2013, 03:33:PM by ngb1066 »

Online ngb1066

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6671
Re: 'Nothing really substantively new....'
« Reply #37 on: April 14, 2013, 02:45:PM »
Conduct in Court

708. A barrister when conducting proceedings in Court:

(a) is personally responsible for the conduct and presentation of his case and must exercise personal judgement upon the substance and purpose of statements made and questions asked;

(b) must not unless invited to do so by the Court or when appearing before a tribunal where it is his duty to do so assert a personal opinion of the facts or the law;

(c) must ensure that the Court is informed of all relevant decisions and legislative provisions of which he is aware whether the effect is favourable or unfavourable towards the contention for which he argues;

(d) must bring any procedural irregularity to the attention of the Court during the hearing and not reserve such matter to be raised on appeal;

(e) must not adduce evidence obtained otherwise than from or through the client or devise facts which will assist in advancing the lay client's case;

(f) must not make a submission which he does not consider to be properly arguable;

(g) must not make statements or ask questions which are merely scandalous or intended or calculated only to vilify insult or annoy either a witness or some other person;

(h) must if possible avoid the naming in open Court of third parties whose character would thereby be impugned;

(i) must not by assertion in a speech impugn a witness whom he has had an opportunity to cross-examine unless in cross-examination he has given the witness an opportunity to answer the allegation;

(j) must not suggest that a victim, witness or other person is guilty of crime, fraud or misconduct or make any defamatory aspersion on the conduct of any other person or attribute to another person the crime or conduct of which his lay client is accused unless such allegations go to a matter in issue (including the credibility of the witness) which is material to the lay client's case and appear to him to be supported by reasonable grounds.

Exactly what I have been saying.  You have misinterpreted the Code of Conduct.


Offline Bridget

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5065
Re: 'Nothing really substantively new....'
« Reply #38 on: April 14, 2013, 02:49:PM »
With respect you do misunderstand.  There does not need to be any direct evidence to support a defence proposition.  The defence are entitled to present whatever arguments they like, however unlikely they may appear.  The only limitation on this is that if the defence want to suggest that a prosecution witness has lied or is guilty of interfering with evidence that witness must be given an opportunity to answer the allegation, i.e. defence counsel has an obligation to put the suggestion to the witness in cross examination.

In the absence of evidence, what reasonable ground to assert deliberate contamination do you think Rivlin would have had? If it simply an idea in his client's head there would be little point in having the rule.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2013, 03:34:PM by ngb1066 »
....just cos I eat worms...

Offline Bridget

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5065
Re: 'Nothing really substantively new....'
« Reply #39 on: April 14, 2013, 02:56:PM »
This is what I said earlier:

I suppose there may well have been a conversation of that nature if JB had insisted on Rivlin making allegations of a dishonest or criminal nature against a witness without evidence or proper grounds (he's prevented from doing so by the Bar Standards Board code of conduct). But we don't know that he did, so it's pure speculation.

So what grounds would there be?

We are not disagreeing on the interpretation of the rule, but on the subjective nature of 'reasonable grounds'.
....just cos I eat worms...

Offline nugnug

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 17252
    • http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fjohnnyvoid.wordpress.com%2F&ei=WTdUUo3IM6mY0QWYz4GADg&usg=AFQjCNE-8xtZuPAZ52VkntYOokH5da5MIA&bvm=bv.5353710
Re: 'Nothing really substantively new....'
« Reply #40 on: April 14, 2013, 03:07:PM »
defense barristers regularly attack the character of prosecution witness. and there hardly ever pulled up for it.

Offline Bridget

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5065
Re: 'Nothing really substantively new....'
« Reply #41 on: April 14, 2013, 03:18:PM »
I rest my case.

If you were ever unfortunate enough to find yourself standing in the dock accused of a murder you did not commit, you would not be provided access to the world wide web in order for you to google & prepare your arguments.

You would not be given the time to 'nit pick' and 'theorise' - you'd be on the ground running.

Running scared probably imo, because real life criminal justice is nothing like how you appear to have misinterpreted it.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but pointless to an MOJ victim.

It's funny how whenever I get into a discussion with anyone you pop up with your own particular brand of nonsensical twaddle.

But you make a good point about hindsight. It's easy to say with hindsight that Rivlin should have handled things differently. But I'm wondering whether if he had, we'd now be having a discussion about how unbelievably foolish he was to turn the jury against his client by making unfounded accusations against the relatives of the 5 victims of an horrific crime.
....just cos I eat worms...

Offline nugnug

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 17252
    • http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fjohnnyvoid.wordpress.com%2F&ei=WTdUUo3IM6mY0QWYz4GADg&usg=AFQjCNE-8xtZuPAZ52VkntYOokH5da5MIA&bvm=bv.5353710
Re: 'Nothing really substantively new....'
« Reply #42 on: April 14, 2013, 03:24:PM »
how did he have turned the jury against his client be a pointing the obvious fact that one of the main prosecution witness had tampered with the evidence.

if the jury heard that the man who was next inline for inheritience had done this i cant see them turning agianst jeremy over it.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2013, 03:26:PM by nugnug »

Online ngb1066

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6671
Re: 'Nothing really substantively new....'
« Reply #43 on: April 14, 2013, 03:27:PM »
In the absence of evidence, what reasonable ground to assert deliberate contamination do you think Rivlin would have had? If it simply an idea in his client's head there would be little point in having the rule.

Bridget, you are really digging a deeper hole for yourself now.  A reasonable ground can be an inference which may be drawn from the surrounding circumstances.  In this case just dealing with the silencer evidence: i) JB denied being responsible for the murders therefore the defence case was that Sheila had to be responsible, ii) the rifle was discovered by police without the silencer fitted, iii) the silencer was subsequently said to have been found by a relative days later in a box in the cupboard under the stairs, iii) the silencer was removed from WHF, examined and handled by several of the relatives and retained by them for several days, iv) the FSS found blood inside the silencer which was either Sheila's or, less likely, a mixture of Nevill's and June's, v) items of Sheila' bloodstained underwear were removed by a relative from WHF, vi) although possible, the suggestion that Shela had used the rifle with the silencer fitted initially then removed it, placed it in the box in the cupboard and then shot herself, was an unlikely scenario, vi) the only other explanation for the presence of the blood inside the silencer was contamination, either accidental or deliberate.

Against that background Rivlin would have been perfectly entitled to raise the suggestion of contamination, even deliberate contamination, because that was an inference which might be drawn from the evidence.  I would go further and say that if Jeremy had insisted Rivlin would have been under an obligation to put such allegations to witnesses and he would have been in breach of the Code of Conduct if he had refused to do so.

There was a high profile case in the 1970s, an IRA bomb trial at the Old Bailey.  The head of my chambers was appearing for one of the accused.  The evidence against him was that his fingerprints had been discovered on a timer found at the address used by the bombers.  The defendant's instructions were i) that he was not involved in the bombing, ii) that he had never seen the timer and had certainly not touched it and had never been at the address where the timer was found.  There was no doubt that the fingerprints were a perfect match for the defendant.  In the light of those instructions the only basis upon which defence counsel could challenge the prosecution case was by directly alleging that the police had planted the figerprints.  He demonstrated that it was possible to take a lift of a finerprint on a glass using sellotape, then deposit it on another surface.  The deendant was not surprisingly convicted but counsel had done what he was obliged to deo.  The trial judge was the notorious Mr Justice Melford Stephenson.  He was of a similar view to Bridget in that he claimed that defence counsel who had pursued this defence had done so without reasonable grounds.  He directed that their fees be cut and he reported them to the Bar Counsel.  Defence counsel appealed the fees order and sought a ruling from the Bar Counsel.  The Bar Counsel robustly supported the position of defence counsel, in a blistering criticism of the judge.  The fees reduction was also overturned.

The above example is of a case where the evidential basis for the defence presented was far lower than existed in JB's case in relation to the possibilty of contamination of the silencer.

I do know what I am talking about Bridget, trust me! ;D


Offline Bridget

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5065
Re: 'Nothing really substantively new....'
« Reply #44 on: April 14, 2013, 03:33:PM »
Bridget, you are really digging a deeper hole for yourself now.  A reasonable ground can be an inference which may be drawn from the surrounding circumstances.  In this case just dealing with the silencer evidence: i) JB denied being responsible for the murders therefore the defence case was that Sheila had to be responsible, ii) the rifle was discovered by police without the silencer fitted, iii) the silencer was subsequently said to have been found by a relative days later in a box in the cupboard under the stairs, iii) the silencer was removed from WHF, examined and handled by several of the relatives and retained by them for several days, iv) the FSS found blood inside the silencer which was either Sheila's or, less likely, a mixture of Nevill's and June's, v) items of Sheila' bloodstained underwear were removed by a relative from WHF, vi) although possible, the suggestion that Shela had used the rifle with the silencer fitted initially then removed it, placed it in the box in the cupboard and then shot herself, was an unlikely scenario, vi) the only other explanation for the presence of the blood inside the silencer was contamination, either accidental or deliberate.

Against that background Rivlin would have been perfectly entitled to raise the suggestion of contamination, even deliberate contamination, because that was an inference which might be drawn from the evidence.  I would go further and say that if Jeremy had insisted Rivlin would have been under an obligation to put such allegations to witnesses and he would have been in breach of the Code of Conduct if he had refused to do so.

There was a high profile case in the 1970s, an IRA bomb trial at the Old Bailey.  The head of my chambers was appearing for one of the accused.  The evidence against him was that his fingerprints had been discovered on a timer found at the address used by the bombers.  The defendant's instructions were i) that he was not involved in the bombing, ii) that he had never seen the timer and had certainly not touched it and had never been at the address where the timer was found.  There was no doubt that the fingerprints were a perfect match for the defendant.  In the light of those instructions the only basis upon which defence counsel could challenge the prosecution case was by directly alleging that the police had planted the figerprints.  He demonstrated that it was possible to take a lift of a finerprint on a glass using sellotape, then deposit it on another surface.  The deendant was not surprisingly convicted but counsel had done what he was obliged to deo.  The trial judge was the notorious Mr Justice Melford Stephenson.  He was of a similar view to Bridget in that he claimed that defence counsel who had pursued this defence had done so without reasonable grounds.  He directed that their fees be cut and he reported them to the Bar Counsel.  Defence counsel appealed the fees order and sought a ruling from the Bar Counsel.  The Bar Counsel robustly supported the position of defence counsel, in a blistering criticism of the judge.  The fees reduction was also overturned.

The above example is of a case where the evidential basis for the defence presented was far lower than existed in JB's case in relation to the possibilty of contamination of the silencer.

I do know what I am talking about Bridget, trust me! ;D

I know you do, and thank you for the explanation. :)
....just cos I eat worms...