Jeremy got to scene (whf) much faster than people give him credit for...

[Lugg]

Hi Patti
I agree with your understanding of the call from JB to the Police taking place at 03.26
I'm afraid that Mike will not accept this timing
If that call lasted 11 minutes (as asserted by Mike) that takes us to 11.37
JB then spent 15 minutes apparently (again according to Mike's timing) to travel a distance of 3/4 miles - Mike appears to equivocate between JB driving at least part of that journey at a fast speed and him driving at a modest speed throughout the journey
However, 15 mins is a long time
Of course, without sight of an official document, I am not prepared to accept that that tel call lasted 11 minutes and again, in any event, you will know that I do not accept that JB received any tel call from "Dad"
Jim

Unfortunately we are all looking at this from the wisdom of hindsight. When things like timing certain tasks happen, in reality we tend to leave out extra things we do at the time. In fact I am surprised that it didn't take him a lot longer than 15 minutes.

[jim ignatowski]

Unfortunately we are all looking at this from the wisdom of hindsight. When things like timing certain tasks happen, in reality we tend to leave out extra things we do at the time. In fact I am surprised that it didn't take him a lot longer than 15 minutes.

Hi Lugg
I agree with you about precise timings
However, the sequence in which events take place is a wholly different matter
I'm still awaiting further information from Mike about the order in which the phone calls were made by JB - who did he ring first, Julie or the police?
Jim

[Caroline R]

Perhaps I'm not making myself clear - what is so important is not what the evidence of PC West was at the Trial but what JB's case was at Trial!
It's as plain as a pikestaff that JB has changed his case !
I wonder why eh?
Please accept that JB's case has NOT  been consistent?
Jim

Julie Mugfords timings  (and those of her flatmates) weren't accurate or consistent. In stressful situations people forget things. However, people who plan things tend to remember!!

[Lugg]

Hi Lugg
I agree with you about precise timings
However, the sequence in which events take place is a wholly different matter
I'm still awaiting further information from Mike about the order in which the phone calls were made by JB - who did he ring first, Julie or the police?
Jim

I thought you were arguing about why it took him so long to get to WHF?

[jim ignatowski]

Julie Mugfords timings  (and those of her flatmates) weren't accurate or consistent. In stressful situations people forget things. However, people who plan things tend to remember!!

Hi Caroline
But the point I'm seeking to make is that the flatmates between them were not in a position to provide an accurate/consistent version - I fully accept that
However, it would be a wholly different matter if, for example, an individual flatmate had himself/herself provided inconsistent accounts of the the events
And that's what JB has done - he has changed his story - no individual flatemate has changed his/her story
Jim

[killingeve]

Julie Mugfords timings  (and those of her flatmates) weren't accurate or consistent. In stressful situations people forget things. However, people who plan things tend to remember!!

Hi Caroline.  It's the same in the Simon Hall and David Bland cases ie lots of confusion over timings.  I'm sure its a feature of many crimes ie trying to account for vital minutes.  Today of course it is made easier as we can pinpoint movement and time with satellite techology 

[jim ignatowski]

I thought you were arguing about why it took him so long to get to WHF?

Hi Lugg
Of course I am arguing that case !
Because I consider that the tel call made by JB was made at 03.26 and, if say, it lasted 5 minutes, that would mean it took him over 20 mins to drive 3-4 miles
Further, his motor car was noted to be driving at a modest speed by the police officers whose police car overtook his car en route to WHF
Jim

[Caroline R]

Hi Caroline
Would it be possible for you to identify the source material for PC West's cross- examination?
Jim

Hi Jim, sorry, I have only just seen this but I see Hartley has provided the link. That is the same source.

[Alias]

Hi Lugg
Of course I am arguing that case !
Because I consider that the tel call made by JB was made at 03.26 and, if say, it lasted 5 minutes, that would mean it took him over 20 mins to drive 3-4 miles
Further, his motor car was noted to be driving at a modest speed by the police officers whose police car overtook his car en route to WHF
Jim

If he had to get dressed, I don´t think it is such a long time - and why is it so important how long it took to get to the farm, I never "got" that?

[Caroline R]

Hi Caroline
But the point I'm seeking to make is that the flatmates between them were not in a position to provide an accurate/consistent version - I fully accept that
However, it would be a wholly different matter if, for example, an individual flatmate had himself/herself provided inconsistent accounts of the the events
And that's what JB has done - he has changed his story - no individual flatemate has changed his/her story
Jim

OK, there are two logs (both are supposed to be from the same call) - JB's. One has 03:26, the other 03:36 - it's really not surprising that JB starts to question the timings when he is confronted with such discrepancies and if he had planned the murders, he would surely get his timings right. I would be more inclined to be suspicious if his timings weren't inconsistent.

I don't understand why you can accept the flatmates weren't in a position to be accurate/consistent but you expect JB to be 100%? 

[jim ignatowski]

If he had to get dressed, I don´t think it is such a long time - and why is it so important how long it took to get to the farm, I never "got" that?

Hi Alias
I consider that IF JB received a tel call from his father informing him that his sister had gone crazy with a gun, I'd have driven like a bat out of hell to get to WHF
JB didn't do that
I consider that JB was anxious to delay his arrival at WHF because, in his mind, there was no particular need to hurry - he knew the occupants were already dead!
Jim

[Caroline R]

Hi Caroline.  It's the same in the Simon Hall and David Bland cases ie lots of confusion over timings.  I'm sure its a feature of many crimes ie trying to account for vital minutes.  Today of course it is made easier as we can pinpoint movement and time with satellite techology 

I agree NN, it's not like we're talking about hours of difference - confusion (to me) seems perfectly reasonable.

[jim ignatowski]

OK, there are two logs (both are supposed to be from the same call) - JB's. One has 03:26, the other 03:36 - it's really not surprising that JB starts to question the timings when he is confronted with such discrepancies and if he had planned the murders, he would surely get his timings right. I would be more inclined to be suspicious if his timings weren't inconsistent.

I don't understand why you can accept the flatmates weren't in a position to be accurate/consistent but you expect JB to be 100%?

Hi Caroline
I'm far more interested in the sequencing of the tel calls made by JB than the timings of those calls
Allowance must, of course, be made in respect of precise timings but I'm far less forgiving in respect of the order in which the tel calls were made
Jim

[maggie]

Hi Alias
I consider that IF JB received a tel call from his father informing him that his sister had gone crazy with a gun, I'd have driven like a bat out of hell to get to WHF
JB didn't do that
I consider that JB was anxious to delay his arrival at WHF because, in his mind, there was no particular need to hurry - he knew the occupants were already dead!
Jim

Hi Jim the problem is that we really do not know how we would behave in certain situations although we think we do.  Shock and fear sometimes make us slow and calm not all revved up and dashing off adrenaline flowing.

[Lugg]

Hi Lugg
Of course I am arguing that case !
Because I consider that the tel call made by JB was made at 03.26 and, if say, it lasted 5 minutes, that would mean it took him over 20 mins to drive 3-4 miles
Further, his motor car was noted to be driving at a modest speed by the police officers whose police car overtook his car en route to WHF
Jim

Personally I can't see how the time is relevant? Surely if he wanted to get there later he would either have adjusted his phone call accordingly. Or stayed a bit longer in his house? He had lived in the area for years and obviously knew the time it took to travel back and forth from WHF? I rather think too much is being made of this whole timing business.