Re: Adoption Debate

[guest7363]

Hi Caroline

Yes ok thanks.  Can't imagine we will stand much chance of 'pulling' on this thread though ie don't expect much through traffic from the male species save perhaps Steve_uk may venture in if we're lucky of course . 

It's interesting though that male posters rarely comment on the family relationships etc and tend to stick to the 'hard' evidence eg scene of crime, gun(s), silencer(s), blood, phone logs etc.  Whereas female posters appear to consider both? 

Hi NN, your right it is a topic that gets missed i think the reason being if you have not had any dealings with adoption its hard to comment on the subject does that make sense? My wife was fostered at 3 years old she hardly talks about it i think because it has never been a problem and we have always dealt with it jokingly, i keep reminding her how lucky she was to be fostered she would not have met me otherwise.

[killingeve]

Hi NN, your right it is a topic that gets missed i think the reason being if you have not had any dealings with adoption its hard to comment on the subject does that make sense? My wife was fostered at 3 years old she hardly talks about it i think because it has never been a problem and we have always dealt with it jokingly, i keep reminding her how lucky she was to be fostered she would not have met me otherwise.

Hi Ralph

Yes I see where you're coming from but to be quite honest although I'm adopted up until about four years ago when I read Nicky Campell's book:

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1161601.Blue_Eyed_Son

I couldn't have told you much about adoption myself.  Nicky's book got me interested in the subject and I started reading other books about adoption and then read about JB's ccrc application in one of the papers.  That's when I started looking into the WHF murders and adoption as a potential contributory factor.

I have noticed though that the male posters appear to post little about the relationships/adoption.  I accept that most will not have any experience of adoption but then most probably don't have experience of blood in silencers, bullets etc, etc?

Hey yeah your wife was lucky she got to meet you  :D

[guest7363]

Hi Ralph

Yes I see where you're coming from but to be quite honest although I'm adopted up until about four years ago when I read Nicky Campell's book:

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1161601.Blue_Eyed_Son

I couldn't have told you much about adoption myself.  Nicky's book got me interested in the subject and I started reading other books about adoption and then read about JB's ccrc application in one of the papers.  That's when I started looking into the WHF murders and adoption as a potential contributory factor.

I have noticed though that the male posters appear to post little about the relationships/adoption.  I accept that most will not have any experience of adoption but then most probably don't have experience of blood in silencers, bullets etc, etc?

Hey yeah your wife was lucky she got to meet you  :D

Would i be right in saying the younger a child is adopted, the less effect it would have in later life?  Looks a good book by the way NN. 

[killingeve]

Would i be right in saying the younger a child is adopted, the less effect it would have in later life?  Looks a good book by the way NN.

Hi Ralf

Yes its a good read.  Its well written and funny.

No not necessarily.  I think a lot has to do with the realtionship the adopted child has with his/her adoptive parents and the childs innate coping mechanisms.  Apparently the core issues are as follows:

7 Lifelong Issues In Adoption

http://www.fairfamilies.org/2012/1999/99LifelongIssues.htm

Genealogical Bewilderment

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genealogical_bewilderment

The Primal Wound

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Primal_Wound

All of the above are pertinent to Sheila and Jeremy who were adopted as babies in the 'closed' adoption system.

[killingeve]

Well said Susan. It makes no difference whatsoever, adopted or not and shouldn't remain an issue,,as to how a child " turns out " into the adult life.It can,and does happen to anybody.
I can't be doing with anyone who tries to make something of absolutely nothing.
If June had given birth to a daughter,,,who's to say she wouldn't have turned out like Sheila did anyway.?

Good Morning Lookout

With respect I think you are wrong in your assertions above.  Do you have any evidence to support your claims?

David Brodzinsky Ph.D is a world leading expert in adoption:

http://www.adoptioninstitute.org/whowe/fellows.html

based in the psychology dept at Rutgers University (ranked 99 out of 400 from WORLD universities):

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2012-13/world-ranking/range/001-200

Here is an excerpt from one of his books:

http://books.google.co.uk/books/about/The_Psychology_of_Adoption.html?id=0UW7AAAAIAAJ&redir_esc=y

The fact is June did not give birth to Sheila and according to all the professionals fundamental differences exist between birth and adoptive families 

[susan]

Morning N/N

not sure what I said about adoption but I would probably be wrong as I really am quite ignorant about the matter and it is a subject I should not comment on just read the facts and learn.  One thing I am certain of the way a birth Mother behaves etc whilst carrying a child does affect the behaviour of the child i.e. if the Mother is highly strung and tense it will reflect on the unborn child.  Am I making sense.

[lookout]

Good morning,NN.. I know that I'm right in my own personal view.
I haven't been involved in adoption in any way,,but the next best thing were/are step-children.

A lot depends on how the subject is broached ,when a parent/s takes on a child with a differing bloodline,,,,and to me this doesn't/hasn't posed a problem at all.
In fact,my situation was possibly a more difficult one,as when I married years ago,in the late 50,s,,I also found myself with a " ready-made " family of two children at 7 and 9 years respectively.
Their mother wasn't deceased,,,she just didn't want them,. So they'd,in effect,,been rejected by their birth mother,,,which could have proved to have been a nightmare,,,,but wasn't.

We had ups and downs like any other normal family,,,and as far as I was concerned,,we were a normal family,,and I didn't give any hints that they " weren't mine ",,,but also,I didn't deprive them from seeing their mother if they so wished,,,but that didn't happen as the children didn't want to do. Neither children received a Birthday or Christmas card from their mother. The children never once mentioned about that,,and neither did I.

When my own two girls came along,,my step-children were delighted,and as far as they were concerned,they had two little sisters. Again,,,there was no discrimination and I treated all the children the same. It was never a subject that I felt I needed to remind any of them until later on in years when my own blood children understood the situation.

There remains to be contact all round,and I'm nan to lots of children now.
Both step-children had had a pretty turbulent start in their young lives before I came onto the scene,and their father had been granted full custody of them when he'd divorced. So anyone might have expected big problems regarding the children,,,but it was one of my own who gave me the biggest headache during her teenage years.

My own advice would be that unless a child asks questions,,,then say nothing.Never remind them,,nor hint in any way that " they're different ",because they're not. Thank God I've held a balanced view.
Far too much emphasis is made on children " who aren't your own flesh and blood ", and with proper parenting, it's an acceptance of another child and the job of the parent is to integrate them with the minimum of fuss,,and not to make them feel " different ". Just get on with life and the job in hand.

[guest7363]

Good Morning Lookout

With respect I think you are wrong in your assertions above.  Do you have any evidence to support your claims?

David Brodzinsky Ph.D is a world leading expert in adoption:

http://www.adoptioninstitute.org/whowe/fellows.html

based in the psychology dept at Rutgers University (ranked 99 out of 400 from WORLD universities):

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2012-13/world-ranking/range/001-200

Here is an excerpt from one of his books:

http://books.google.co.uk/books/about/The_Psychology_of_Adoption.html?id=0UW7AAAAIAAJ&redir_esc=y

The fact is June did not give birth to Sheila and according to all the professionals fundamental differences exist between birth and adoptive families 

Would i be right in saying the mother who has given the child up for adoption would in my opinion suffer the most? I have sat and thought about all the people i have met that have been adopted, not once has any regret, remorse or traits of psychological damage shown up? I am with lookout on this who i find speaks from own life expeiriences and does not believe everything that is written by someone else. People in  my opinion write books make money, plug ones name, then seem to move onto something else. Take Scott Lomax book well written but everyone on here could put our own version in the book, and i bet everyone who has been adopted would put a different version in any book on adoption?

[killingeve]

Morning N/N

not sure what I said about adoption but I would probably be wrong as I really am quite ignorant about the matter and it is a subject I should not comment on just read the facts and learn.  One thing I am certain of the way a birth Mother behaves etc whilst carrying a child does affect the behaviour of the child i.e. if the Mother is highly strung and tense it will reflect on the unborn child.  Am I making sense.

Morning Susan

Yes I believe lots of research is going on about the effects of stress hormones on the developing foetus.  I suspect much more goes on in that womb that we are currently aware of 

[susan]

Morning lookout

you obviously did a great job with your step children but not all cases are such a success.  The blood is thicker than water does apply in many instances and some parents differentiate between blood and step children not knowing they are doing it.  In some cases the step children are aware of this and grow up with none or little love for their provider. Sad but true

Well done to you.

[susan]

Morning Ralph

with regard to adoption my knowledge is limited but I do feel some Mothers who give their child up for adoption will suffer in later life as opposed to the time they give their baby away.  Children who are adopted will all react differently so we cannot generalise.  I am a great believer that a child whether or not adopted inherits traits of behaviour from their birth parents.  Jeremy and Sheila Bamber have genes from their birth parents and also will have emulated their adopted parents and their behaviour in general will stem from their upbringing hence the saying "give me the child and I will give you the man" Susanx

[killingeve]

Good morning,NN.. I know that I'm right in my own personal view.
I haven't been involved in adoption in any way,,but the next best thing were/are step-children.

A lot depends on how the subject is broached ,when a parent/s takes on a child with a differing bloodline,,,,and to me this doesn't/hasn't posed a problem at all.
In fact,my situation was possibly a more difficult one,as when I married years ago,in the late 50,s,,I also found myself with a " ready-made " family of two children at 7 and 9 years respectively.
Their mother wasn't deceased,,,she just didn't want them,. So they'd,in effect,,been rejected by their birth mother,,,which could have proved to have been a nightmare,,,,but wasn't.

We had ups and downs like any other normal family,,,and as far as I was concerned,,we were a normal family,,and I didn't give any hints that they " weren't mine ",,,but also,I didn't deprive them from seeing their mother if they so wished,,,but that didn't happen as the children didn't want to do. Neither children received a Birthday or Christmas card from their mother. The children never once mentioned about that,,and neither did I.

When my own two girls came along,,my step-children were delighted,and as far as they were concerned,they had two little sisters. Again,,,there was no discrimination and I treated all the children the same. It was never a subject that I felt I needed to remind any of them until later on in years when my own blood children understood the situation.

There remains to be contact all round,and I'm nan to lots of children now.
Both step-children had had a pretty turbulent start in their young lives before I came onto the scene,and their father had been granted full custody of them when he'd divorced. So anyone might have expected big problems regarding the children,,,but it was one of my own who gave me the biggest headache during her teenage years.

My own advice would be that unless a child asks questions,,,then say nothing.Never remind them,,nor hint in any way that " they're different ",because they're not. Thank God I've held a balanced view.
Far too much emphasis is made on children " who aren't your own flesh and blood ", and with proper parenting, it's an acceptance of another child and the job of the parent is to integrate them with the minimum of fuss,,and not to make them feel " different ". Just get on with life and the job in hand.

Hi Lookout

Thanks for sharing that with me.  You sound like a great mum, step-mum and nan. 

Yes I agree with much of what you've said.  Due to a set of personal circumstances (overseas and family illness) my niece (adopted brother's daughter) lived with me for about 6 months when she was about 2 yoa.  In my heart of hearts I know I couldn't have loved her anymore etc,etc than I did my own birth children.  In fact I probably felt more protective towards her as she wasn't "my own" child  .

Part of the problem with the adoptions of the so-called baby scoop era was imo the secrecy and denial.  Adoptive parents were told to "tell" at a young age as most did including my own and Nevill and June.  That then leaves lots of questions which adopted children were unable to have answers to as in the main the adoptive parents had no real knowledge of the birth parents, circumstances etc so that then can give rise to the issues in the following post which you may have already read:

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,3974.msg163871.html#msg163871

Its a natural outcome from the set-up I think 

Interestingly I have heard from a very reliable source that Nevill and June kept in touch with JB's birth parents via an intermediary/letters for the first four years of his life which was very unusual.  They then shared this info with JB when he was about 8 yoa.  This probably partly explains why he showed no interest in reuniting with his birth parents until he sought their help with his current situation.  No such info existed for Sheila which in part may explain why she sought out her birth family.

The only thing I knew about my adoption until I was in my early 20's was that I was born in Cambridge. 

[lookout]

Morning lookout

you obviously did a great job with your step children but not all cases are such a success.  The blood is thicker than water does apply in many instances and some parents differentiate between blood and step children not knowing they are doing it.  In some cases the step children are aware of this and grow up with none or little love for their provider. Sad but true

Well done to you.

Morning Susan,,,a lot has to do with your own up-bringing as well,,because my parents were accepting of anyone,without question. Never made any fuss,nor stood on ceremony,and for that,I'm very thankful to them both. Truthful at all times.
My step-children often visit their younger sister ( my daughter ) and have remained probably closer than blood relatives. The other daughter is too far for them to visit---------------in Australia,,but they keep in contact just the same either through Facebook or e-mail.

[susan]

Hi lookout

you sound as if you had a great childhood and this in turn made you into a brilliant Mum

[killingeve]

Would i be right in saying the mother who has given the child up for adoption would in my opinion suffer the most? I have sat and thought about all the people i have met that have been adopted, not once has any regret, remorse or traits of psychological damage shown up? I am with lookout on this who i find speaks from own life expeiriences and does not believe everything that is written by someone else. People in  my opinion write books make money, plug ones name, then seem to move onto something else. Take Scott Lomax book well written but everyone on here could put our own version in the book, and i bet everyone who has been adopted would put a different version in any book on adoption?

Hi Ralf

Yes I agree birth mothers, and often fathers too, were often pressured some may say coerced into giving their child up for adoption and suffer lifelong consequences.  I understand its very rare for a birth parent to reject a birth child when they attempt to reunite.  My birth parents I'm pleased to say were delighted when I turned up and both were childless.  Can't wait for the inheritances to roll in  .

There are numerous adoptees in the public eye eg the late Steve Jobs, Michael Gove, Kate Adie to name but a few.  As you said these people don't seem to have any regrets, remorse or psychological damage.  However, I do recall reading Kate Adie's auto-biog and she refers to certain issues relating to her adoption and did go on to reunite with her birth mother.  And in fact wrote a book about foundling babies.  I guess I'm pretty 'normal'  well I'm sure that's how MOST posters see me  but how can we be sure? 

However, I can't be moved from all the scientific evidence and studies which do show that adoptees are at risk from a host of pscyhological and emotional problems.  If you can find me some evidence to the contrary I would be most interested to read it.  In fact the UK Government produced a report

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=rupert%20rushbrooke%20adoption&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CC8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ons.gov.uk%2Fons%2Frel%2Fpopulation-trends-rd%2Fpopulation-trends%2Fno--104--summer-2001%2Fthe-proportion-of-adoptees-who-have-received-their-birth-records-in-england-and-wales.pdf&ei=nI4wUY6ZDOXM0AXT3YHoDw&usg=AFQjCNFj1YZLotkd1Ax6AwlZ04HV8MPYLQ

Lol...what a link  .  Anyway the conclusion states:

 "There seem to be two overall conclusions.  Firstly, the phenomenion of adoptees applying for their birth records is clearly mainstram adoption behaviour, and not all the peripheral activity that had been expected in 1975.  Secondly, the patterns in the statistics are consistent with the theory that adoption causes deep-seated problems for at least a significant proportion of adoptees".

Here's a link to a book 'The Primal Wound' supposedly the adoptees bible    If you're interested you can read the customer reviews which tend to be from adoptees who share their views on adoption:

http://www.amazon.com/Primal-Wound-Understanding-Adopted-Child/dp/0963648004

My interest in adoption is how it might be connected to the WHF murders and based on all the evidence eg witness statements, books etc Sheila's relationship with June and adoption experience were not positive ones  .  Although I don't believe the same can be said for Jeremy  .  It strikes me as odd that no reference was made of this by Dr Ferguson at Jeremy's trial?  After all he was the main line of defence