PV's Bullet Weights, Fletcher and Vanezes

[-Harters-]

Does this help?

[-Harters-]

PV 2

Confused, you will be after reading this....

PV 2 weight 37.45

One document says this bullet was taken from RBs arm. This is incorrect for the arm shot was an exit shot, there was no bullet to be found there. 

Fletcher in his confusion must have made a mistake by putting that PV 2 was from the left arm of RB.

PV2 was from the left shoulder and he says the bullet was virtually intact.  It was fired from approximately 2 feet away in a downward position.

This is where I am confused. He describes this bullet as being virtually intact on one side, whole, flattened.   

I don't think it's a mistake at all, PV/2 was from Ralphs arm, even though it entered at his shoulder.

Haven't we already done this Patti?

[-Harters-]

PV 3

PV 3 weight 29.72  1.968 grms strongly suggestive being from (18)  ( When compared to PV2 it is less in weight)

This bullet was nearly whole.  (The weight of this bullet suggests it was not) ??

This bullet was a head shot , fwd to the ear left temperal. It was fired within a couple of inches. ( It appears that Fletcher does not know his left from his right, for this bullet was received on the right side fig. 1 in diagram.)

The nose of the bullet was extensively damaged.

What makes you think it was fired on the right side?

[Patti]

I will be back later.....I spent a lot of time on this, but there could be mistakes, if so I want help to correct them....

[-Harters-]

I will be back later.....I spent a lot of time on this, but there could be mistakes, if so I want help to correct them....

That's fine if you want to go through it, but it's a bit tricky to see where you've messed up if you don't show your sources. 

What are the diagrams in the archives that you refer to? Do you mean the bullet wound diagram of Ralph? What does fig.6 (or whatever number) refer to?

Maybe a new thread for each bullet would be easier (for me) to follow.

[Bridget]

I'd find it easier to follow if I knew where it was going!

[Patti]

I know where I am going with it....I have only put what is documented.  It's takes a great deal of time to go  digest what I have done......It opens a lot of questions that should have been put before the jury in the original trial...of how many shots were actually fired. We are to believe there was 8....What I am saying it that I question that....

I will post the documents late....

[Patti]

The wording above is "Appears to have hit a curved surface side-on. Nose - base and one side virtually intact", which is consistent with one side being flattened.

The initial examination of PV/3 described it as having extensive damage, which is consistent with it having around 80% of the weight of a whole bullet. An added note states "General & some detail match. Very Strongly suggestive of having been fired in (18)."
Where does Fletcher describe it as whole? The wording in the general examination record is "Received: one fired .22 bullet:- damaged. . . . Bullet badly mushroomed".

PV/5 is described as "Very small fragment of bloodstained lead. NOV for matching purposes.
[NOV = Nothing Of Value, presumably.] This is from the General Examination Record that doesn't mention PV/11.

A separate record for PV/11 states "Virtually no detail suitable for matching . . . Unable to establish whether or not fired in (18)".



PV/8 is described as "badly damage", and its weight indicates it is far from whole. Where is it described as "nearly whole"?

You refer to a "fig3", "fig 5" and "fig 2 which is above 1", but you haven't posted any images above.

From its weight, PV/10 would have been about half of a bullet. On the record I have seen, the word "half" is not used, but a comment states "NO rifling suitable for comparison."

Reader thank you...I will get back to you at a later date. Might be tomorrow I have the day off...

[-Harters-]

I know where I am going with it....I have only put what is documented.  It's takes a great deal of time to go  digest what I have done......It opens a lot of questions that should have been put before the jury in the original trial...of how many shots were actually fired. We are to believe there was 8....What I am saying it that I question that....

I will post the documents late....

You asked me what I thought. I'm not even sure what the question is.

But I'm fairly certain that if an expert made such an obvious mistake, another expert would have noticed a long time before now. I don't mean this as a dig, but I'd suggest it is simply your lack of understanding coupled with the lack of access to all of the documentation, which is leaving you confused.

[-Harters-]

PV 2

Confused, you will be after reading this....

PV 2 weight 37.45

One document says this bullet was taken from RBs arm. This is incorrect for the arm shot was an exit shot, there was no bullet to be found there. 

Fletcher in his confusion must have made a mistake by putting that PV 2 was from the left arm of RB.

PV2 was from the left shoulder and he says the bullet was virtually intact.  It was fired from approximately 2 feet away in a downward position.

This is where I am confused. He describes this bullet as being virtually intact on one side, whole, flattened.   

So you are now happy with PV/2 right?

[-Harters-]

PV 3

PV 3 weight 29.72  1.968 grms strongly suggestive being from (18)  ( When compared to PV2 it is less in weight)

This bullet was nearly whole.  (The weight of this bullet suggests it was not) ??

This bullet was a head shot , fwd to the ear left temperal. It was fired within a couple of inches. ( It appears that Fletcher does not know his left from his right, for this bullet was received on the right side fig. 1 in diagram.)

The nose of the bullet was extensively damaged.

PV/3 - Please can you qualify the above by referencing your sources?

[Patti]

PV5

Weight 29.66

According to Vanezes PV5 is a fragment form the left hand side jaw of NB.

From the General examination record it is known as PV5/11 although it is a fragment form another bullet, Fletcher says it is nearly whole.  However, on a different record he clearly states it is a small fragment unable to match up if it came from (18)  (Why weren't these fragments matched up)

It is fig. 6 on the diagram (drawing can be viewed in the photo section in the archives)

? Which bullet did this fragment belong too. We see two shots to the jaw of NB but it is obvious fig 6 is not a shot it is a fragment.  Thus making shots fired to NB as being 7.

It appears that this fragment is quite heavy, yet Fletcher claims it was small.....?  Nearly as heavy as PV3  which was nearly whole.

Bump

[Patti]

Ignore me I am working out the bullets from the fragments....lol

[Patti]

We have 25 recovered bullets we have 25 shell cases. 

Yet PV/5 remains a mystery as to how they derive at the fact that a fragment is a bullet. 

Surely PV/5 is part of another bullet and if this is the case then NB only had 7 shots and not 8...

Hartley where owt thow?   

[lookout]

What of the 12 bore shotgun with Sheilas' fingerprints on it ?.  Something else that wasn't presented at trial.
According to Scott Lomax,,Sheila had arrived at WHF on the 4th of August,,with the shootings which took place on the 6th/7th,,would have shown that Sheila had only recently handled it. To which the prosecution and its enterage would have immediately said that Sheila wouldn't have handled it. What more proof would they have needed ?
The 12 bore could easily have been the first weapon that Sheila got hold of because Neville had only mentioned,, the gun,,in his phone-call,,so the fact that he hadn't mentioned which gun,,amongst what was kept at the farmhouse,,proves that Neville called.

Shotgun/rifle. Is there such a big difference ? We don't know if the shotgun was used initially,,but if so,,would this be a cause of a fractured bullet ?