Author Topic: Sheila attempted to commit suicide (but failed), and was shot by the police...  (Read 52999 times)

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Caroline R

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Yes I believe there had been a previous major cock up, my memory is fuzzy, a doctor's wife maybe?

What I don't see is why it would have saved any face to frame JB rather than accept the neat and tidy package that was delivered to them in the form of Sheila.

Exactly! However, IF there is such a photograph clearly showing ONE gun shot wound on Sheila and someone has a copy - why aren't they handing it over? This evidence would surely seal the appeal?

Offline Jane

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Interesting, but without evidence it is pure fiction.


Despite there may be an element of truth. I'm reminded of a situation in which I knew something I couldn't prove and being challenged to try. Lack of evidence is not proof of something having happened or not, and can be, and is used by both the prosecution and defence.

Caroline R

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Despite there may be an element of truth. I'm reminded of a situation in which I knew something I couldn't prove and being challenged to try. Lack of evidence is not proof of something having happened or not, and can be, and is used by both the prosecution and defence.

This is true and JB was basically convicted by such 'evidence' however, people have said they they have seen the picture of Sheila. If they have a copy or know where to find it, why not post it or give it to the defence team?

Offline Jane

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We are coming to the crux of the matter now Bridget I think.  I can relate to people trying to solve this puzzle.  One person could ask 'how or why did the case turn?'  Another could ask 'why frame a living person when it would have been easier to frame a dead person'?

Roch, in crude terms, if the living person walked free, the money could have gone with him and so to could a lifestyle. What would have been gained by framing the dead person?

Offline Bridget

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Despite there may be an element of truth. I'm reminded of a situation in which I knew something I couldn't prove and being challenged to try. Lack of evidence is not proof of something having happened or not, and can be, and is used by both the prosecution and defence.

If you assert something it's down to you to provide the evidence to support it, there appears to be absolutely nothing to support all these masonic conspiracy theories.


Roch, in crude terms, if the living person walked free, the money could have gone with him and so to could a lifestyle. What would have been gained by framing the dead person?

What would the police have gained either way?

Exactly! However, IF there is such a photograph clearly showing ONE gun shot wound on Sheila and someone has a copy - why aren't they handing it over? This evidence would surely seal the appeal?

You'd think...

Mike has said he has copies of a photo on 3 (or was it 4?) hard drives. He has described this photo as showing Sheila on the bed with no blood coming from the sides of her mouth, thus showing that Sheila must have been on the bed before the crime scene photos were taken. He's had it since 2003 but won't post it or do anything else with it.

Then there is Mike's informant 'Z' who met him in the wood somewhere and showed him a picture of Sheila on the bed with one wound. Mike and 'Z' apparently hand delivered that phot to the CCRC in Birmingham, but nothing has been said about that since and Mike apparently doesn't have a copy.

Make of that what you will...
....just cos I eat worms...

Offline Roch

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Roch, in crude terms, if the living person walked free, the money could have gone with him and so to could a lifestyle. What would have been gained by framing the dead person?

I'm not sure Sheila would necessarily have been 'framed' by police if the rap for what took place had stayed with her.  Nevertheless the question asked by Bridget and the question asked by my self is at the crux of the case. What made EP switch from her to him?  It used to be because JM came forward.  I think JM was shoved forward rather forcefully.  But by who?  And why? 

There's problems for whichever line you take.  If you speculate that the major driving force was money, does that adequately portray the unswerving protestations of belief in guilt by the relatives?  If you speculate that belief in guilt was the driving force, that doesn't support RWB obtaining all this alleged info about Sheila's death and the aftermath (i.e. if he discovered she had been alive prior to the raid).

If there is considerable dislike, distrust & suspicion of JB and also a financial motive, then that still doesn't explain how EP were persuaded to switch their attentions.  Mike seems to favour that it was all of the above, plus highlt sensitive inside info known by RWB (used as leverage). 

An alternative argument is that EP genuinely came round to the idea it was JB.  Because they hadn't properly preserved the crime scene and because of the immense pressure they were under, they created a case against him to achieve the desired result.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2012, 08:44:PM by Roch »

Offline Bridget

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I'm not sure Sheila would necessarily have been 'framed' by police if the rap for what took place had stayed with her.  Nevertheless the question asked by Bridget and the question asked by my self is at the crux of the case. What made EP switch from her to him?  It used to be because JM came forward.  I think JM was shoved forward rather forcefully.  But by who?  And why? 

There's problems for whichever line you take.  If you speculate that the major driving force was money, does that adequately portray the unswerving protestations of belief in guilt by the relatives?  If you speculate that belief in guilt was the driving force, that doesn't support RWB obtaining all this alleged info about Sheila's death and the aftermath (i.e. if he discovered she had been alive prior to the raid).

If there is considerable dislike, distrust & suspicion of JB and also a financial motive, then that still doesn't explain how EP were persuaded to switch their attentions.  Mike seems to favour that it was all of the above, plus highlt sensitive inside info known by RWB (used as leverage).  If you follow that line, depending the extent of what RWB allegedly knew, it doesn't paint him in a very good light, especially if it is the level of info asserted above by Mike.

An alternative argument is that EP genuinely came round to the idea it was JB.  Because they hadn't properly preserved the crime scene and because of the immense pressure they were under, they created a case against him to achieve the desired result.

That seems a pretty fair summary of the problems, now what are the answers?  ;D
....just cos I eat worms...

Offline Jane

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If you assert something it's down to you to provide the evidence to support it, there appears to be absolutely nothing to support all these masonic conspiracy theories.

Bridget, I find the masonic conspiracy theories much too hard to swallow. I accept that there are rotten eggs everywhere, ut my numerous friens and relatives who are masons are all thoroughly decent people and I have a very strong urge to defend them.





What would the police have gained either way?


It may be more about what they may have lost had they not gone along with it.

You'd think...

Mike has said he has copies of a photo on 3 (or was it 4?) hard drives. He has described this photo as showing Sheila on the bed with no blood coming from the sides of her mouth, thus showing that Sheila must have been on the bed before the crime scene photos were taken. He's had it since 2003 but won't post it or do anything else with it.

Then there is Mike's informant 'Z' who met him in the wood somewhere and showed him a picture of Sheila on the bed with one wound. Mike and 'Z' apparently hand delivered that phot to the CCRC in Birmingham, but nothing has been said about that since and Mike apparently doesn't have a copy.

Make of that what you will...


I wait patiently.

Offline lookout

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That photograph was in the hands of Ewen Smith,,,a former solicitor of Jeremys',,back in December 2003.
It was when Mike saw it in EW's office. It showed Sheila on top of the bed in the master bedroom,,minus the/a rifle on,or near her body.
This would account for Sheilas' bed not having been slept in,,apart from the indentation of her head having been resting on the pillow as shown in pics that we've seen.

Offline Bridget

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That photograph was in the hands of Ewen Smith,,,a former solicitor of Jeremys',,back in December 2003.
It was when Mike saw it in EW's office. It showed Sheila on top of the bed in the master bedroom,,minus the/a rifle on,or near her body.
This would account for Sheilas' bed not having been slept in,,apart from the indentation of her head having been resting on the pillow as shown in pics that we've seen.

Has Ewen Smith ever admitted to having seen that photo?
....just cos I eat worms...

Offline Jane

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I'm not sure Sheila would necessarily have been 'framed' by police if the rap for what took place had stayed with her.  Nevertheless the question asked by Bridget and the question asked by my self is at the crux of the case. What made EP switch from her to him?  It used to be because JM came forward.  I think JM was shoved forward rather forcefully.  But by who?  And why? 

There's problems for whichever line you take.  If you speculate that the major driving force was money, does that adequately portray the unswerving protestations of belief in guilt by the relatives?  If you speculate that belief in guilt was the driving force, that doesn't support RWB obtaining all this alleged info about Sheila's death and the aftermath (i.e. if he discovered she had been alive prior to the raid).

If there is considerable dislike, distrust & suspicion of JB and also a financial motive, then that still doesn't explain how EP were persuaded to switch their attentions.  Mike seems to favour that it was all of the above, plus highlt sensitive inside info known by RWB (used as leverage). 

An alternative argument is that EP genuinely came round to the idea it was JB.  Because they hadn't properly preserved the crime scene and because of the immense pressure they were under, they created a case against him to achieve the desired result.

Roch, I'm happy to go with your alternative argument adding that they may have caved in under pressure from the rellies and it started to look like the easiest option, and if they thought he would get off through lack of evidence at least they would have fulfilled any
 obligation they may have believed they had to the rellies, by taking him to court.

Offline mike tesko

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Robert Boutflour seized on the information he learned about the find of a silencer by the police on the morning of the shootings, and he built his theory about Jeremy using a silencer on the gun when he carried out the shootings, based on that information. The original silencer (SBJ/1) found by the police on 7th August 1985, caused the relatives to believe that it had been handed back to the scene by the police, prior to the keys being handed back to the family, on the evening of 9th August 1985? Linked to this, is the fact that on the afternoon of the 9th August 1985, DCI "taff" Jones, and DS "Stan" Jones, visited Jeremy Bamber at his cottage at 9 Head Street, Goldhanger, Essex, and spoke to him about the rifle and the silencer. In particular, they asked him if the rifle had got the silencer fitted to its barrel on the evening prior to the shootings which Jeremy had handled before leaving whf and going home to his cottage on evening 6th August 1985? He told them,"No"...

Although DCI "Taff" Jones has since died, DS "Stan" Jones has confirmed in a witness statement that the police did speak to Jeremy about the silencer on the afternoon of 9th August 1985...

So, the police knew about the silencer, a silencer, the day before the relatives claim to have found one in the gun cupboard. Why did the police take an interest in one of these silencers on the day of the shootings, which they drew Jeremy's attention to on the afternoon of 9th August 1985, the day before the relatives brought the second silencer into the equation? I have received intelligence that Robert Boutflour was told by sources already mentioned that the police actually shot Sheila upon entering the kitchen - he was told that this came about involving a rifle with a silencer fitted to the end of its barrel. He was told that there was a struggle between a police officer and Sheila and that it resulted in her getting shot in the right side of the neck by the police. The angle of the shot and the dimension of the gun with silencer fitted prevented an opportunity for Sheila to have shot herself in the neck at that time, and so with Sheila on the kitchen floor presumed dead, police removed the silencer from the guns barrel (which was later seized by DS Jones). Police thought she was dead, and left her body unattended downstairs whilst they proceeded to carry out a search of other parts of the farmhouse, and upstairs. She had not died but found her way upstairs to the bedroom and collapsed on the bed. This took place before the training exercise took place at around 8:30am to 9am. By this stage, police officers engaged in the training exercise had moved the body and repositioned the rifle (minus a silencer) atop the body, and that no-one had checked to see if the rifle being used was loaded with bullets or safe? It was during the stage managing of Sheila's body and the repositioning of the rifle atop her body that the gun went off and Sheila got shot under the chin. It was not until that moment that the police realized that Sheila was not dead, but had been killed by the second discharge of a gun...

The key feature which Robert Boutflour found out relating to the shooting of Sheila was that a silencer was used when she was first shot downstairs, but that there was no silencer fitted to the gun that fired the fatal shot under the chin? Boutflour found out that the police had removed a silencer from one guns barrel, and that there was no silencer fitted to the gun which killed her because police had removed it, and it had been seized by DS "Stan" Jones at the scene along with three other exhibits (SBJ/2, SBJ/3 and SBJ/4). Boutflour was confident that he could make fellow mason ACC Peter Simpson instigate an investigation into trying to put Jeremy in the frame for the murders, because of the fact that police had removed a silencer from one rifle, and had seized a metal end cap from the other. Police have kept the location where the metal end cap was found secret, because they wanted to leave it open to argue if necessary that the silencer taken into possession by DS Jones (SBJ/1) on 7th August 1985, had also been fitted to the barrel of the rifle which fired the fatal shot, but it had not...

Boutflour found out that this was the reason why the original fragmented bullet (PV/20) was substituted and replaced by a test fired whole bullet. He knew this was important because the fragmented bullet had become damaged as a result of having been fired through a misaligned silencer, which was not reproduced on the fatal bullet that killed her. Boutflour knew this was the reason why police swapped over one of the bullets, because if they had been left as they were, it would have been crystal clear that both bullets had not been fired through a damaged silencer, becaue only one of the two bullets |(PV/20) was fragmented...

With this in mind, persuading ACC Simpson to start a new investigation trying to put Jeremy in the frame was a piece of cake...
« Last Edit: July 05, 2012, 09:28:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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If you assert something it's down to you to provide the evidence to support it, there appears to be absolutely nothing to support all these masonic conspiracy theories.


What would the police have gained either way?

You'd think...

Mike has said he has copies of a photo on 3 (or was it 4?) hard drives. He has described this photo as showing Sheila on the bed with no blood coming from the sides of her mouth, thus showing that Sheila must have been on the bed before the crime scene photos were taken. He's had it since 2003 but won't post it or do anything else with it.

Then there is Mike's informant 'Z' who met him in the wood somewhere and showed him a picture of Sheila on the bed with one wound. Mike and 'Z' apparently hand delivered that phot to the CCRC in Birmingham, but nothing has been said about that since and Mike apparently doesn't have a copy.

Make of that what you will...

Essex police deliberately falsified the photographic records and hid 358 photographs from the defence and the court which tried him, and the appellate court which dealt with the 2002 appeal. Many of these 358 photograph (if not all) would have exposed the prosecutions case as a pack of lies, and would have helped to prove that police stage managed the scene and planted the gun and the bible on Sheila's body to make out that she had taken her own life (Jeremy was completely innocent and played no role at all in those proceedings) - make of this what you will? Police swapped over one of the bullets relating to Sheila's injuries. Police tampered with the exhibit references of different silencers and presented a false case suggesting there was only ever just the one (merged) silencer...

Make of this and all the other inconsistencies, irregularities and contradictions in / of the case against Jeremy Bamber? Can you really keep using the lousy excuse that police made errors in this case?
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Caroline R

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Nevertheless the question asked by Bridget and the question asked by my self is at the crux of the case. What made EP switch from her to him?  It used to be because JM came forward.  I think JM was shoved forward rather forcefully.  But by who?  And why? 

Actually Roch, it was my question but as Bridget said - what are the answers? Speculation just makes more questions than answers.
Also, regards the picture - no one would surely hand over such an important piece of evidence without 'first' making a copy and you would 'never' had over the original! If there is such a picture, why not just post it here and then we can ALL lobby the CCRC with the same information and something might happen BUT if it is simply a case of someone needing people to think they know something others don't - well, that's not really helping anyone.

Offline mike tesko

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Actually Roch, it was my question but as Bridget said - what are the answers? Speculation just makes more questions than answers.
Also, regards the picture - no one would surely hand over such an important piece of evidence without 'first' making a copy and you would 'never' had over the original! If there is such a picture, why not just post it here and then we can ALL lobby the CCRC with the same information and something might happen BUT if it is simply a case of someone needing people to think they know something others don't - well, that's not really helping anyone.

I suppose its a bit like DC Clarke telling Ann Eaton on the morning of the shootings that the bodies of Sheila and June were found on the bed, and the actual photographs which Essex police dared disclose amongst the 223 they said had been taken showed Sheila on the bedroom floor with the gun barrel in different positions against and around her neck. In addition, in these re-staged photographs the position of Sheila's right hand is shown in various positions upon, against and around the trigger...

Guns barrel has been moved about in the region of the neck where the second fatal shot under the chin was inflicted - and police photographed her right hand in different positions around, upon and against the trigger. It should be obvious why the police are saying no-one moved anything until after PC Bird finished taking all his pictures, yet here we have the guns barrel in different positions against her neck, and Sheila's right hand and fingers dancing around the region of the trigger, at a time when police were satisfied that she took her own life.

She committed suicide didn't she?


« Last Edit: July 05, 2012, 09:45:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...