Gun tests in Arizona

[Newbury1]

Nick - if a second rifle was used, what happened to it?

Ngb - as referred to in my original post, it could have been Pargetters (what did happen with his gun that night - the story changed a couple of times ) or that unique weapon (UW) handed in (I don't know what happened to that).

When Mike first referred to this UW I did ask him if it was still in existence and where it might be - I don't think I got an answer (but I could be wrong).

[Roch]

I find it difficult to envisage the two weapon scenario.  I do not see any reason why the police would conceal evidence of a second weapon having been used.

 

Thanks for your opinion Neil.  Just to clarify, another way of putting it.  In your opinion, how likely would it be that Essex Police / crime labs would be unable to detect the use of multiple weapons from studying crime scene / victims / balistics?

[Newbury1]

I find it difficult to envisage the two weapon scenario.  I do not see any reason why the police would conceal evidence of a second weapon having been used.

 

Part of the EP cock-up that night - EP originally thought it was 4 murders and a suicide (with one rifle - no silencer).

When the case changed it would have been more complicated for EP to introduce a second weapon (Media question - why did EP overlook the use of a second weapon. EP would have looked even bigger idiots).

When the case changed EP thought they had enough on JB with the story of one rifle (with silencer now fitted to introduce rifle as too long for SC to kill herself with etc.)

[ngb1066]

Thanks for your opinion Neil.  Just to clarify, another way of putting it.  In your opinion, how likely would it be that Essex Police / crime labs would be unable to detect the use of multiple weapons from studying crime scene / victims / balistics?

There were I believe 10 rounds fired which could not definitely be attributed to the Anschutz rifle so the use of a second .22 rimfire weapon could not be conclusively ruled out. 

 

[ngb1066]

Part of the EP cock-up that night - EP originally thought it was 4 murders and a suicide (with one rifle - no silencer).

When the case changed it would have been more complicated for EP to introduce a second weapon (Media question - why did EP overlook the use of a second weapon. EP would have looked even bigger idiots).

When the case changed EP thought they had enough on JB with the story of one rifle (with silencer now fitted to introduce rifle as too long for SC to kill herself with etc.)

Yes, I follow your logic.  It is possible, although in my view unlikely.

[Newbury1]

Thanks for your opinion Neil.  Just to clarify, another way of putting it.  In your opinion, how likely would it be that Essex Police / crime labs would be unable to detect the use of multiple weapons from studying crime scene / victims / ballistics?

Don' forget Roch EP would not be looking for another weapon for a least a month after the killings. Afterall EP were convinced it was 4 murders and a suicide (with one rifle no silencer).

A lot of the bullets according to Mike (and ballistics at the time) could not be directly attributed to the Bamber rifle.

Then in 1996, whilst the case was still ongoing, the bullets were destroyed by EP (how convenient is that if EP had someting to hide?!!)

[grahameb]

The new evidence  suggests that Sheila was shot without the silencer fitted.

And since the trial was based on the fact that there was only one gun used to shoot all members of the family the CCRC or the appeal court cannot use the possibility of there being two guns as an objection.

[grahameb]

The Sword of Damocles held above Bamber's head has been...

'How could Sheila have shot her self with the silencer on and then placed it in the gun cupboard?' 

'Who put the silencer in the gun cupboard?'

'How could Sheila have shot her self with the silencer on?  her arms were too short.'

How many people have cited such statements over the years and then finished their statements about Jeremy Bamber being 'bang to rights' and evil etc?

I think first things first.  Let's have some recognition from the guilty camp that such conceptions were in fact false and misleading.  I'm speaking in general here.  Let's see some humility from the guilty camp with regards to world renowned experts showing up the sword held over Bamber's head as being made of bendy plastic.

I doubt that you will ever see that acknowledgement because unbelief is stronger than evidence.

[Roch]

Nick, could there be a pitfall inherent in trying to minimise defence revelations?  At which point do we reach a stage where people are actively striving to find ways or reasons to keep Jeremy Bamber in the frame for these killings? 

[jon]

Nick , the other day , you was saying ' what JB need's is evidence to get the CCRC to refer the case back to the COA ' now he as that , you seem to want more , it appear's to me if JM said ' she was lying ' you would try and say that is irrelevant also !! JB said all along ' the gun he left had no moderator fitted ' , EP went to court and never accepted this , if it is now found that JB told the truth at the start and EP never you can hardly expect the conviction's not to be overturned !!

[Newbury1]

And since the trial was based on the fact that there was only one gun used to shoot all members of the family the CCRC or the appeal court cannot use the possibility of there being two guns as an objection.

An interesting point that backs the prosecution against the wall (so to speak).

If lets say "new" evidence (I know it's a long shot) came to light that a second weapon was used and the prosecution wanted to present this (to counteract the no silencer proposal by the defence) would that be possible and, if so, then a re-trial would be inevitable -  wouldn't it?

[grahameb]

Okay -

"one rifle with a silencer fitted (used to kill the twins (5 & 3 shots) and SC (2 shots with silencer removed) = 10 shots).

When I was studying theology in reference to Bible exposition when you come across a difficult passage of scripture was (and I think the same logic applies to this case) that the simplest explanation is usually the right one. The simplest explanation was and is in this case that it happened as the police first thought it did ie that Sheila shot the family and then herself using that one gun that was found with her body. Everything else is speculation which unfortunately was all begun by Robert Boutflour an his silly diary.

[jon]

An interesting point that backs the prosecution against the wall (so to speak).

If lets say "new" evidence (I know it's a long shot) came to light that a second weapon was used and the prosecution wanted to present this (to counteract the no silencer proposal by the defence) would that be possible and, if so, then a re-trial would be inevitable -  wouldn't it?

There will never be a retrial , as EP would have to reveal all withheld document's and that won't happen IMO !!

[ngb1066]

An interesting point that backs the prosecution against the wall (so to speak).

If lets say "new" evidence (I know it's a long shot) came to light that a second weapon was used and the prosecution wanted to present this (to counteract the no silencer proposal by the defence) would that be possible and, if so, then a re-trial would be inevitable -  wouldn't it?

The prosecution would need leave from the Court of Appeal to call evidence in support of the prosition that a second weapon was used, and I doubt if leave would be given.  I very much doubt that a retrial would be ordered in this case.

 

[Newbury1]

Nick, could there be a pitfall inherent in trying to minimise defence revelations?  At which point do we reach a stage where people are actively striving to find ways or reasons to keep Jeremy Bamber in the frame for these killings?

Roch I strongly believe it has been certain parties desire to actively strive to find ways or reasons to keep JB in the frame for these killings since he was found guilty (without the silencer evidence - which I believe was tampered with - I believe JB would have been found NOT guilty)!

In fact the striving by certain parties started before JB was found guilty!