PC Collins looked in through wrong window to see Ralph's body

[smiffy]

MANNERS ACTUAL WORDS.

An approach was made to the door along the wall to the left of the premises.

The wall which appears in the back view of the premises is seen to the right.
This wall encompasses what appears to be the garden area.
This same wall when viewed from the front of the premises is detached and to the left. This wall appears to be continuous and leads round to join the house at the rear.

Manners words apply well in that premises left or right sides are normally accepted as being from a front aspect. In such an aspect the wall is indeed to the left of the premises.

Manners says premises.
If Manners had said "along the wall to the left of the door" that would be perfectly clear..but he does not say that.
Neither does he say they approached along the wall to the left of the door.

He does not say the wall was part of the premises (as in building).

[mike tesko]

Yes made out of masonry and actually called walls.

Anyway this is getting silly, we both know what each other is saying.

Regarding Delgado's statement, would you consider posting it? It's fine if you say no and I won't ask you again.

...........

With respect, nobody refers to the front or back of their home as a wall, they say front of house/building or back...

Similarly, I would not expect a police officer to refer to the wall of the house, without mentioning that they were/are referring to the wall of the house, I would expect them to say the front of the house, or the back of the house...

Since, there is only one wall at the rear of the house, I think it is reasonable to conclude in the absence of any proper explanation, to conclude that the reference was to the wall in question, not to the back wall of the farmhouse?

I will be posting all the statements made by all the members of the raid team, whether they were made by themselves, or others acting on their behalf, in due course, on a separate thread - I am waiting for the right moment to introduce that particular section, so you and everyone else will have to be patient I am afraid...

[H]

Yes made out of masonry and actually called walls.

Anyway this is getting silly, we both know what each other is saying.

Regarding Delgado's statement, would you consider posting it? It's fine if you say no and I won't ask you again.

...........

With respect, nobody refers to the front or back of their home as a wall, they say front of house/building or back...

Similarly, I would not expect a police officer to refer to the wall of the house, without mentioning that they were/are referring to the wall of the house, I would expect them to say the front of the house, or the back of the house...

Since, there is only one wall at the rear of the house, I think it is reasonable to conclude in the absence of any proper explanation, to conclude that the reference was to the wall in question, not to the back wall of the farmhouse?

I will be posting all the statements made by all the members of the raid team, whether they were made by themselves, or others acting on their behalf, in due course, on a separate thread - I am waiting for the right moment to introduce that particular section, so you and everyone else will have to be patient I am afraid...

I disagree, but that's nothing new.

Thank you for saying that you will post those statements, I will be patient whilst looking forward to seeing them.

[mike tesko]

Yes made out of masonry and actually called walls.

Anyway this is getting silly, we both know what each other is saying.

Regarding Delgado's statement, would you consider posting it? It's fine if you say no and I won't ask you again.

...........

With respect, nobody refers to the front or back of their home as a wall, they say front of house/building or back...

Similarly, I would not expect a police officer to refer to the wall of the house, without mentioning that they were/are referring to the wall of the house, I would expect them to say the front of the house, or the back of the house...

Since, there is only one wall at the rear of the house, I think it is reasonable to conclude in the absence of any proper explanation, to conclude that the reference was to the wall in question, not to the back wall of the farmhouse?

I will be posting all the statements made by all the members of the raid team, whether they were made by themselves, or others acting on their behalf, in due course, on a separate thread - I am waiting for the right moment to introduce that particular section, so you and everyone else will have to be patient I am afraid...

I disagree, but that's nothing new.

Thank you for saying that you will those statements, I will be patient whilst looking forward to seeing them.

---------

Front of house/back of house - that's my take on it, or the wall at the front of the house, or the wall at the rear of the house, if I were to mention the wall of the house, I would be referring to a wall separate to the main building/premises, unless otherwise specified...

[mike tesko]

Linked to this matter - is the fact that there was some sort of confusion over the color coding attributed to the farmhouse (WHF) at the beginning of the operation? White side might not have been white side, Green side might not have been Green side, Red side might not have been Red side, and Black side might not have been Black side, at the beginning of the operation, it appears that somebody attributed the colors to different sides of the farmhouse at the beginning of the operation, than what they ended up as, at the end of the operation, but precisely how and why these were changed or altered is not clear?

Also note, that according to Jeremy, Anthony Pargeters .22 bolt action rifle (by reference to diagram drawn by Jeremy and handed to the police at the scene) should have been present at the scene at the material time?

[H]

Front of house/back of house - that's my take on it, or the wall at the front of the house, or the wall at the rear of the house, if I were to mention the wall of the house, I would be referring to a wall separate to the main building/premises, unless otherwise specified...

As per my previous post(s) I still disagree, perhaps these other statements will be able to open future discussions when you feel it's the right time to post them.

I think this has run it's course with neither of us agreeing.

But I am a sucker for the last word  .

[tyler]

In not really savvy on police operations Im afraid.The police called for a coroner and doctors etc for the murder victims.They also called for a police surgeon.Is it usual practice to call out a police surgeon for deceased people does anyone know?

[H]

In not really savvy on police operations Im afraid.The police called for a coroner and doctors etc for the murder victims.They also called for a police surgeon.Is it usual practice to call out a police surgeon for deceased people does anyone know?

Yes in order to certify death. You can read Dr Craig's statement here if it's of any interest.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1187.0.html

[mike tesko]

Front of house/back of house - that's my take on it, or the wall at the front of the house, or the wall at the rear of the house, if I were to mention the wall of the house, I would be referring to a wall separate to the main building/premises, unless otherwise specified...

As per my previous post(s) I still disagree, perhaps these other statements will be able to open future discussions when you feel it's the right time to post them.

I think this has run it's course with neither of us agreeing.

But I am a sucker for the last word  .

...

Well, lets get something clear, nobody could have seen Ralph's body sat on that chair behind the internal kitchen door, from the vantage point of being outside the main kitchen window, and so there is absolutely no chance or prospect of anyone mistaking Ralph's body, for that of a dead female, it just couldn't have happened like that. So, any reference to seeing a female body must have been made through the other window, the one to the left of the door that the police smashed open. Just as a matter of interest, you have never said how Ralph's head ended up in that coal bucket? Other posters may be interested in your views about how his head ended up there, without any injuries being sustained to his head (according to the pathologist) from his head coming into contact with the rim of the metal coal bucket?

Are you. for example, suggesting that the killer toppled over Ralph's body so that it ended up like that,. or that the killer simply placed Ralph's head in that coal bucket to prevent the spread of blood further afield on the main kitchen floor?

I would be interested to hear your views on this feature

[H]

I haven't suggested anything, I don't know how he ended up like that. What I have said in the past, is that there is no evidence to suggest that Ralph was not discovered in that position in that location when the police entered.

There is not a single tangible snippet of evidence which indicates that he was moved and placed there by the police. The near the door, in front of the door or behind the door descriptions are not (in my opinion) out of keeping with him being in that toppled over position, he is sufficiently near the door (again, in my opinion) to render those descriptions accurate and consistent.

Let's not forget that the murder had to get through that door to place the silencer in the gun cupboard, so to the contrary, there is evidence that suggests Ralph was not in the location you suggest when the police entered.

I already know your views on this, as indeed you also already know mine.

[mike tesko]

I have seen the documentary - Killing mum and dad, and the cameraman who took the footage showed views as he entered the kitchen through the very same door that members of the raid team would have had to enter the main kitchen and in that footage, all that you could/can see was a very fine slither of the kitchen window, not enough to be able to see anyone sat on a chair behind that internal door, and of course when I went there and looked through the window myself, you could not see the internal door without pressing you face/nose right up against the window pane and even then you could not see much of the door in question - I doubt very much that any police officer would press their nose right up to the glass of the main kitchen window, at a time when they suspected that Sheilas might be loose anywhere in the farmhouse, with a loaded gun?

[mike tesko]

I haven't suggested anything, I don't know how he ended up like that. What I have said in the past, is that there is no evidence to suggest that Ralph was not discovered in that position in that location when the police entered.

There is not a single tangible snippet of evidence which indicates that he was moved and placed there by the police. The near the door, in front of the door or behind the door descriptions are not (in my opinion) out of keeping with him being in that toppled over position, he is sufficiently near the door (again, in my opinion) to render those descriptions accurate and consistent.

Let's not forget that the murder had to get through that door to place the silencer in the gun cupboard, so to the contrary, there is evidence that suggests Ralph was not in the location you suggest when the police entered.

I already know your views on this, as indeed you also already know mine.

.................

Why would the pathologist state that there were no injuries upon the face or head of Ralph Bamber that were consistent with his face/head falling against the rim of the coal bucket, if Ralph's face/head had fallen against the rim of the metal coal bucket?

The only other alternative...

The killer placed Ralph's face/head inside the coal bucket with a view to preventing the spread of blood elsewhere on the Kitchen floor - now why would any would be killer be remotely interested in preventing the spread of blood elsewhere on the main kitchen floor? Why would any would be killer be interested in placing a towel, cushion covers from a number of wooden chairs, and a pair of cotton trousers on the floor around the base of the coal bucket?

I need to hear you views about why any would be killer would place such items on the main kitchen floor around the coal bucket, with the specific intention of controlling the spread of blood on the kitchen floor?

[H]

I have seen the documentary - Killing mum and dad, and the cameraman who took the footage showed views as he entered the kitchen through the very same door that members of the raid team would have had to enter the main kitchen and in that footage, all that you could/can see was a very fine slither of the kitchen window, not enough to be able to see anyone sat on a chair behind that internal door, and of course when I went there and looked through the window myself, you could not see the internal door without pressing you face/nose right up against the window pane and even then you could not see much of the door in question.

That is no different to what I have previously said, except if pressing your face against the window you can see approximately 50% of the door. But I am also saying that it's irrelevant because Ralphs body was found a few feet away from the door in front of the AGA. Which would then be very easily seen by looking through the kitchen window.

[mike tesko]

I have seen the documentary - Killing mum and dad, and the cameraman who took the footage showed views as he entered the kitchen through the very same door that members of the raid team would have had to enter the main kitchen and in that footage, all that you could/can see was a very fine slither of the kitchen window, not enough to be able to see anyone sat on a chair behind that internal door, and of course when I went there and looked through the window myself, you could not see the internal door without pressing you face/nose right up against the window pane and even then you could not see much of the door in question.

That is no different to what I have previously said, except if pressing your face against the window you can see approximately 50% of the door. But I am also saying that it's irrelevant because Ralphs body was found a few feet away from the door in front of the AGA. Which would then be very easily seen by looking through the kitchen window.

.............

No, you are wrong, you cannot evade trying to answer that point, and then simply say that Ralph's body was found in that position - the fact is, his body was not found in that position, it was moved there. It was either (a) toppled over so that his head fell into that coal bucket, or (b) his head was placed there to try and control the spread of blood around upon the kitchen floor?

His head either fell into that coal bucket, or it was placed there, now which is it that you are suggesting?

[mike tesko]

If the killer placed Ralph's head in that coal bucket, and it is your suggestion that the killer was the person who positioned the towel, cushions from the wooden chairs, and the pair of cotton trousers on the kitchen floor, with a view to preventing the spread of blood further afield upon the kitchen floor, then how would this fit in with the suggestion that such a killer intended for the police to fall for the idea that Sheila had killed everyone, and that she had then taken her own life?

Why would the killer think that the police would fall for the idea that Sheila was worried about the spread of blood further afield, on the kitchen floor?