Re: Julie Mugford Trial examination/cross examination

[Rob_]

According to CAL Julie asked for Jine's bike after the break-up.
Who on earth would want a bike IF they knew it had been used to carry out one of the worst shootings in British history Steve?

Perhaps I am being kind to her but it seems quite clear to me Julie by her actions after the tragedy did not think Bamber carried out the murders.

[snow66!]

Perhaps I am being kind to her but it seems quite clear to me Julie by her actions after the tragedy did not think Bamber carried out the murders.

Hi Rob,hope your well.
I totally agree,I think that is staring us in the face to be quite honest.I could write a very long post indeed on this subject.

[Hardy Boy]

According to CAL Julie asked for Jine's bike after the break-up.
Who on earth would want a bike IF they knew it had been used to carry out one of the worst shootings in British history Steve?

Yes i read that Snow.  I find the whole Bike scenario confusing, one minute he is asked, when did you discuss with Julie about getting the Bike, he replies I didn't, but Julie had talked on different occasions of wanting the bike when she comes to visit me, So i take that as though Julie didn't know he was bringing it for her?   The first time she saw it was the 4th, three days before the Murders? she hadn't asked for June's bike, all she had said that a Bike would be Handy for her, that was the Summer before the Murders?  Ill put the statements up and let you read them?


https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1144.0;attach=5811;image
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1144.0;attach=5812;image

https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1144.0;attach=5813;image

[ILB]

Why do you think the CT give a totally different reason for the bike arriving than Bamber testified?

Why do you keep asking me about what the CT say?

What on earth is that got to do with what my opinions as an individual are...

[snow66!]

Yes i read that Snow.  I find the whole Bike scenario confusing, one minute he is asked, when did you discuss with Julie about getting the Bike, he replies I didn't, but Julie had talked on different occasions of wanting the bike when she comes to visit me, So i take that as though Julie didn't know he was bringing it for her?   The first time she saw it was the 4th, three days before the Murders? she hadn't asked for June's bike, all she had said that a Bike would be Handy for her, that was the Summer before the Murders?  Ill put the statements up and let you read them?


https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1144.0;attach=5811;image
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1144.0;attach=5812;image

https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1144.0;attach=5813;image

Thanks HB.
As I say,I may have to write a post on why it is absurd to believe that Julie thought JB was guilty before the police tried to tell her so.
I mean,just a quick instance.Julie leaves Goldhanger around  27th Aug and breaks the news that JB was responsible for the murder of his family to Susan Battersby the next day.Now the WHF murders was a huge story at the time,one of the worst shootings in British history.Yet apparently Julie tells Susan not to tell a sole that JB had his family killed,and lo and behold she agrees.
Indeed Susan is too scared to go to the police anyway incase JB finds out and goes after her.So,a tricky situation,what to do next? Well,on the 28th,the day after Susan is told there is a birthday party for Julie and what do you know,JB is invited.
Now,as I said the Bamber murders is huge news at that time,in all the papers and on TV,its a tragedy of epic proportion,and up until that time everyone thought that Sheila was responsible,in fact it had been put to rest in this regard.Now,in this climate and totally out of the blue Susan is told that it was actually JB who had his family killed.Can you imagine the shock at such news? Surely there would be no doubt in most peoples mind that the police would inevitabily have to be informed and advise Julie to steer well clear of someone who was obviously a psychpath who must be off his head. in the mean time.
But no,Susan agrees to keep quiet about JBs involvement because Julie couldn't stand the thought of JB being sent to prison.Yes,Julie's still in love with the psycho and doesn't want the killer of women and children to pay for his crimes,indeed she apparently guarenteed JB on more than one occasion that she wouldn't turn him in.
Yes,THIS IS the official story,plus the fact that Julie didn't know her concious from her subconcious mind of course,well,we all get mixed up in that particular area,dont we?
Never mind,Susan has agreed to keep her mouth shut and Julie's party is in full swing the next day when JB arrives with a car load of booze.
Now,you would expect Susan to steer well clear of JB wouldn't you? It must have given her a chill being in hs presence knowing what he had done.But no,Susan is in a happy mood and has been spraying guests with cream before JBs arrival,and rather than steer clear of him she jokingly and light heartedly threatens to spray him too! Extraordinary!
JB gets annoyed with Susans unrelenting prank however and eventually throws the Julie's birthday cake at her.Susan runs up stairs in tears,devastated that JB wouldn't caper about with her.
Susan still keeps her mouth shut though about what she knows,not divulging a word to Lizzie who comforts her.
Lizzie of course is next to be told by Julie about JBs involvement,needless to say she keeps her mouth shut too and life seems to carry on as normal with JB helping Julie to move flats and so on.
The fact is everyone seems to carry on as normal until AFTER Julie allegedly goes to the police,no one treated JB ANY differently after they were told what he had done.and JB didn't talk of any suspicious behaviour towards him from anyone.
Liz was apparently in a state of shock though after being told about JB and locked her doors in case JB came after her
Then the confrontation happened of course on 4th sept ,yet Julie phoned the next day about helping her move to new digs.This was done,and on the same day Julie asked for June's bike,sadly JB had forgot to take it.
Then,lo and behold,Julie and Lizzie get into the car with JB and Brett who take them to Piccadilly to go nightclubbing.Didn't Lizzie fear for her life any more getting into a car with a psycho?
Then,for some reason the holiday that Julie and Lizzie were planning is abandoned and they tell Malcolm Waters about JB before going to the police.
So,although Julie could not stand the thought of JB in jail and had promised him over and over again that she would not go to the police,that is exactly what she did apparently.
Does all this sound in the least bit plausable? Its absurd! And took months to prepare.
 

[Adam]

Why do you keep asking me about what the CT say?

What on earth is that got to do with what my opinions as an individual are...

Do you think Arlidge should have pressed Bamber more on the purpose of the bike?

In 2023 the nearest gym is 4.6 miles away. Goodness knows where a gym would be in 1985. 

There were shops within 5/10 minute walks away.

Even the CT know Bamber's testimony on this isn't strong enough for the OS.

The only plausible reason for bringing a bike over was for Julie to cycle to work in Maldon. A year earlier!

[Hardy Boy]

Thanks HB.
As I say,I may have to write a post on why it is absurd to believe that Julie thought JB was guilty before the police tried to tell her so.
I mean,just a quick instance.Julie leaves Goldhanger around  27th Aug and breaks the news that JB was responsible for the murder of his family to Susan Battersby the next day.Now the WHF murders was a huge story at the time,one of the worst shootings in British history.Yet apparently Julie tells Susan not to tell a sole that JB had his family killed,and lo and behold she agrees.
Indeed Susan is too scared to go to the police anyway incase JB finds out and goes after her.So,a tricky situation,what to do next? Well,on the 28th,the day after Susan is told there is a birthday party for Julie and what do you know,JB is invited.
Now,as I said the Bamber murders is huge news at that time,in all the papers and on TV,its a tragedy of epic proportion,and up until that time everyone thought that Sheila was responsible,in fact it had been put to rest in this regard.Now,in this climate and totally out of the blue Susan is told that it was actually JB who had his family killed.Can you imagine the shock at such news? Surely there would be no doubt in most peoples mind that the police would inevitabily have to be informed and advise Julie to steer well clear of someone who was obviously a psychpath who must be off his head. in the mean time.
But no,Susan agrees to keep quiet about JBs involvement because Julie couldn't stand the thought of JB being sent to prison.Yes,Julie's still in love with the psycho and doesn't want the killer of women and children to pay for his crimes,indeed she apparently guarenteed JB on more than one occasion that she wouldn't turn him in.
Yes,THIS IS the official story,plus the fact that Julie didn't know her concious from her subconcious mind of course,well,we all get mixed up in that particular area,dont we?
Never mind,Susan has agreed to keep her mouth shut and Julie's party is in full swing the next day when JB arrives with a car load of booze.
Now,you would expect Susan to steer well clear of JB wouldn't you? It must have given her a chill being in hs presence knowing what he had done.But no,Susan is in a happy mood and has been spraying guests with cream before JBs arrival,and rather than steer clear of him she jokingly and light heartedly threatens to spray him too! Extraordinary!
JB gets annoyed with Susans unrelenting prank however and eventually throws the Julie's birthday cake at her.Susan runs up stairs in tears,devastated that JB wouldn't caper about with her.
Susan still keeps her mouth shut though about what she knows,not divulging a word to Lizzie who comforts her.
Lizzie of course is next to be told by Julie about JBs involvement,needless to say she keeps her mouth shut too and life seems to carry on as normal with JB helping Julie to move flats and so on.
The fact is everyone seems to carry on as normal until AFTER Julie allegedly goes to the police,no one treated JB ANY differently after they were told what he had done.and JB didn't talk of any suspicious behaviour towards him from anyone.
Liz was apparently in a state of shock though after being told about JB and locked her doors in case JB came after her
Then the confrontation happened of course on 4th sept ,yet Julie phoned the next day about helping her move to new digs.This was done,and on the same day Julie asked for June's bike,sadly JB had forgot to take it.
Then,lo and behold,Julie and Lizzie get into the car with JB and Brett who take them to Piccadilly to go nightclubbing.Didn't Lizzie fear for her life any more getting into a car with a psycho?
Then,for some reason the holiday that Julie and Lizzie were planning is abandoned and they tell Malcolm Waters about JB before going to the police.
So,although Julie could not stand the thought of JB in jail and had promised him over and over again that she would not go to the police,that is exactly what she did apparently.
Does all this sound in the least bit plausable? Its absurd! And took months to prepare.

Everyone has tried to play down their role in this Snow, Julie say's she saw the bike three days before the murders at his house on the 4th, your not telling me she didn't ask him about it and was it for her or why he had bought his Mothers Bike to his house.  She knew all along why the bike had been brought over three days before the murders. Bamber cannot say he brought it over for the murders so he say's he's got it for Julie, which i believe they both planned to say anyway, Likewise Julie doesn't want to say he brought the Bike over for her, and she knew he had, because she wants to do him over.  Julie Mugford Lied and Lied all through this and she should be locked up in the next cell to Bamber, she should have the biggest shame on her head, because she is as much responsible for the two little boy's death and Neville and June's and Sheila.

I don't for one minute believe there was any Coercive Control from Bamber over Julie, she could have walked away from this relationship at anytime she wanted, she could have gone to the Police at anytime she wanted and she could have saved the lives of the poor victims.

[Bubo bubo]

Everyone has tried to play down their role in this Snow, Julie say's she saw the bike three days before the murders at his house on the 4th, your not telling me she didn't ask him about it and was it for her or why he had bought his Mothers Bike to his house.  She knew all along why the bike had been brought over three days before the murders. Bamber cannot say he brought it over for the murders so he say's he's got it for Julie, which i believe they both planned to say anyway, Likewise Julie doesn't want to say he brought the Bike over for her, and she knew he had, because she wants to do him over.  Julie Mugford Lied and Lied all through this and she should be locked up in the next cell to Bamber, she should have the biggest shame on her head, because she is as much responsible for the two little boy's death and Neville and June's and Sheila

I don't for one minute believe there was any Coercive Control from Bamber over Julie, she could have walked away from this relationship at anytime she wanted, she could have gone to the Police at anytime she wanted and she could have saved the lives of the poor victims.

Do you not consider that there could have been coercive control from SBJ and the police? After all once they had broken her and established her and SB's fraud they could manipulate them to enhance the case against JB. All though there is plausibility in their stories the actual behaviours as Snow points out tell/suggest a different story. So whilst their testimony has some validity the police could not change verifiable history which could be told by others and runs counter to their narrative.

[Cambridgecutie]

Thanks HB.
As I say,I may have to write a post on why it is absurd to believe that Julie thought JB was guilty before the police tried to tell her so.
I mean,just a quick instance.Julie leaves Goldhanger around  27th Aug and breaks the news that JB was responsible for the murder of his family to Susan Battersby the next day.Now the WHF murders was a huge story at the time,one of the worst shootings in British history.Yet apparently Julie tells Susan not to tell a sole that JB had his family killed,and lo and behold she agrees.
Indeed Susan is too scared to go to the police anyway incase JB finds out and goes after her.So,a tricky situation,what to do next? Well,on the 28th,the day after Susan is told there is a birthday party for Julie and what do you know,JB is invited.
Now,as I said the Bamber murders is huge news at that time,in all the papers and on TV,its a tragedy of epic proportion,and up until that time everyone thought that Sheila was responsible,in fact it had been put to rest in this regard.Now,in this climate and totally out of the blue Susan is told that it was actually JB who had his family killed.Can you imagine the shock at such news? Surely there would be no doubt in most peoples mind that the police would inevitabily have to be informed and advise Julie to steer well clear of someone who was obviously a psychpath who must be off his head. in the mean time.
But no,Susan agrees to keep quiet about JBs involvement because Julie couldn't stand the thought of JB being sent to prison.Yes,Julie's still in love with the psycho and doesn't want the killer of women and children to pay for his crimes,indeed she apparently guarenteed JB on more than one occasion that she wouldn't turn him in.
Yes,THIS IS the official story,plus the fact that Julie didn't know her concious from her subconcious mind of course,well,we all get mixed up in that particular area,dont we?
Never mind,Susan has agreed to keep her mouth shut and Julie's party is in full swing the next day when JB arrives with a car load of booze.
Now,you would expect Susan to steer well clear of JB wouldn't you? It must have given her a chill being in hs presence knowing what he had done.But no,Susan is in a happy mood and has been spraying guests with cream before JBs arrival,and rather than steer clear of him she jokingly and light heartedly threatens to spray him too! Extraordinary!
JB gets annoyed with Susans unrelenting prank however and eventually throws the Julie's birthday cake at her.Susan runs up stairs in tears,devastated that JB wouldn't caper about with her.
Susan still keeps her mouth shut though about what she knows,not divulging a word to Lizzie who comforts her.
Lizzie of course is next to be told by Julie about JBs involvement,needless to say she keeps her mouth shut too and life seems to carry on as normal with JB helping Julie to move flats and so on.
The fact is everyone seems to carry on as normal until AFTER Julie allegedly goes to the police,no one treated JB ANY differently after they were told what he had done.and JB didn't talk of any suspicious behaviour towards him from anyone.
Liz was apparently in a state of shock though after being told about JB and locked her doors in case JB came after her
Then the confrontation happened of course on 4th sept ,yet Julie phoned the next day about helping her move to new digs.This was done,and on the same day Julie asked for June's bike,sadly JB had forgot to take it.
Then,lo and behold,Julie and Lizzie get into the car with JB and Brett who take them to Piccadilly to go nightclubbing.Didn't Lizzie fear for her life any more getting into a car with a psycho?
Then,for some reason the holiday that Julie and Lizzie were planning is abandoned and they tell Malcolm Waters about JB before going to the police.
So,although Julie could not stand the thought of JB in jail and had promised him over and over again that she would not go to the police,that is exactly what she did apparently.
Does all this sound in the least bit plausable? Its absurd! And took months to prepare.

Jeremy, Julie Mugford, and all of Jeremy Bamber's friends were nasty little scumbags.

Each and every one of them.

Jeremy Bamber was at the epicenter of all of that.  He was the ringmaster, the manipulator.

Jeremy Bamber was extremely sociable, but it's fairly obvious that any good people he befriended, once they saw his nasty side or heartless side, or criminal side, those good people drifted away, leaving only the horrible, nasty, sycophantic people.

By the time Jeremy Bamber murdered his family, that nasty little group of scumbags had distilled right down over several years and had become the group that were all prepared to support and protect a murderer. They probably found it quite exciting.

The spell was broken the day he was found guilty, and they all drifted away.

And so the bizarre story that Julie Mugford tells, and the weird behaviour of all the people around him at the time, can be explained by the type of scummy and horrible people they were.

Anji Greaves waited for the verdict in a hotel room paid for by a newspaper, who were going to interview Bamber and send them both on holiday together upon his release.

At the very same time Julie Mugford was in another hotel, paid for by a newspaper waiting for the verdict prior to a 25000 pound deal to tell her story.

Anji Greaves started a relationship with Bamber after her sister, Viirginia already had a relationship with him.

Julie Mugford herself was a criminal, as was Susan Battersby.

So, these are the types of people you are dealing with.  They were not normal people.

That should go some way to explain their strange and deviant behaviour at that time.

[ILB]

Jeremy, Julie Mugford, and all of Jeremy Bamber's friends were nasty little scumbags.

Each and every one of them.

Jeremy Bamber was at the epicenter of all of that.  He was the ringmaster, the manipulator.

Jeremy Bamber was extremely sociable, but it's fairly obvious that any good people he befriended, once they saw his nasty side or heartless side, or criminal side, those good people drifted away, leaving only the horrible, nasty, sycophantic people.

By the time Jeremy Bamber murdered his family, that nasty little group of scumbags had distilled right down over several years and had become the group that were all prepared to support and protect a murderer. They probably found it quite exciting.

The spell was broken the day he was found guilty, and they all drifted away.

And so the bizarre story that Julie Mugford tells, and the weird behaviour of all the people around him at the time, can be explained by the type of scummy and horrible people they were.

Anji Greaves waited for the verdict in a hotel room paid for by a newspaper, who were going to interview Bamber and send them both on holiday together upon his release.

At the very same time Julie Mugford was in another hotel, paid for by a newspaper waiting for the verdict prior to a 25000 pound deal to tell her story.

Anji Greaves started a relationship with Bamber after her sister, Viirginia already had a relationship with him.

Julie Mugford herself was a criminal, as was Susan Battersby.

So, these are the types of people you are dealing with.  They were not normal people.

That should go some way to explain their strange and deviant behaviour at that time.

Jeremy Bamber was a farm labourer who drove a vauxhall astra and lived in a cottage which his dad owned. Stop painting him out to be a master manipulator and that's looking from both sides of coin. If gulity he was just a greedy son who was hell bent on getting cash and may have had some issues in up bringing.

He manipulated nobody in his friendship group. Colin caffell remarks that Brett seemed to be the one pulling the strings and Malcolm Waters and Michael Deckers saw Jeremy Bamber as " annoying kid brother type figure"

The case is glamourised because it had everything that sells papers, handsome caddish looking son, wealthy parents, model daughter, ex girlfriend going to the police. It sells papers

I reckon the reality behind it all was much more mundane

[snow66!]

Jeremy, Julie Mugford, and all of Jeremy Bamber's friends were nasty little scumbags.

Each and every one of them.

Jeremy Bamber was at the epicenter of all of that.  He was the ringmaster, the manipulator.

Jeremy Bamber was extremely sociable, but it's fairly obvious that any good people he befriended, once they saw his nasty side or heartless side, or criminal side, those good people drifted away, leaving only the horrible, nasty, sycophantic people.

By the time Jeremy Bamber murdered his family, that nasty little group of scumbags had distilled right down over several years and had become the group that were all prepared to support and protect a murderer. They probably found it quite exciting.

The spell was broken the day he was found guilty, and they all drifted away.

And so the bizarre story that Julie Mugford tells, and the weird behaviour of all the people around him at the time, can be explained by the type of scummy and horrible people they were.

Anji Greaves waited for the verdict in a hotel room paid for by a newspaper, who were going to interview Bamber and send them both on holiday together upon his release.

At the very same time Julie Mugford was in another hotel, paid for by a newspaper waiting for the verdict prior to a 25000 pound deal to tell her story.

Anji Greaves started a relationship with Bamber after her sister, Viirginia already had a relationship with him.

Julie Mugford herself was a criminal, as was Susan Battersby.

So, these are the types of people you are dealing with.  They were not normal people.

That should go some way to explain their strange and deviant behaviour at that time.

Thanks KE,so you and HB firmly believe that Julie was involved then.Well of course that is a plausable theory,but I am inclined to agree with Bubo that the police were more responsible for Julie's statements than she was,getting the known chain of events and inserting half truths or lies to implicate JB.
Besides,his friends,though not the best,couldn't ALL have been slightly psychotic surely,and just shrugged the murders aside until Julie was finally dumped.In that case they must have all been willing to go against Bamber simply because he caused Julie extreme grief by dumping her.Although she claimed that SHE dumped him.
And what about Brett? He was almost as close to JB in the weeks after the shooting as Julie was,yet till this day he dosen't talk of any suspicion that JB was the killer before he was arrested.No mention of overhearing anything incriminating that JB told Julie.And in the end,when Julie was obviously getting jealous of Brett,she never ever hinted to him that JB had his family shot.Even when the relationship was over and she was in turmoil and rage,rage enough to smother Bamber,did she even accidentally say a word to Brett about JBs guilt.
Human nature tells me that most people in this situation would not have been able to control their mouth and blurted out something like, 'do you know what he did Brett? He had his family murdered!,yes he was responsible,you can have the evil so and so!'  Yet not a word from Brett of any such thing.
Now Brett has recently said that he thinks JB is guilty,but gives no concrete evidence whyso he obviously didn't suspect anything at the time or notice any odd behaviour from the likes of Lizzie after she allegedly knew of JBs guilt.
No,I agree with Bubo,the police helped not only Julie,but Susan Battersby with their statements,I suspect that neither really wanted JB to go down but had no choice to maintain their own freedom.This is why Julie cried most of the way through her court evidence.

[Adam]

Thanks KE,so you and HB firmly believe that Julie was involved then.Well of course that is a plausable theory,but I am inclined to agree with Bubo that the police were more responsible for Julie's statements than she was,getting the known chain of events and inserting half truths or lies to implicate JB.
Besides,his friends,though not the best,couldn't ALL have been slightly psychotic surely,and just shrugged the murders aside until Julie was finally dumped.In that case they must have all been willing to go against Bamber simply because he caused Julie extreme grief by dumping her.Although she claimed that SHE dumped him.
And what about Brett? He was almost as close to JB in the weeks after the shooting as Julie was,yet till this day he dosen't talk of any suspicion that JB was the killer before he was arrested.No mention of overhearing anything incriminating that JB told Julie.And in the end,when Julie was obviously getting jealous of Brett,she never ever hinted to him that JB had his family shot.Even when the relationship was over and she was in turmoil and rage,rage enough to smother Bamber,did she even accidentally say a word to Brett about JBs guilt.
Human nature tells me that most people in this situation would not have been able to control their mouth and blurted out something like, 'do you know what he did Brett? He had his family murdered!,yes he was responsible,you can have the evil so and so!'  Yet not a word from Brett of any such thing.
Now Brett has recently said that he thinks JB is guilty,but gives no concrete evidence whyso he obviously didn't suspect anything at the time or notice any odd behaviour from the likes of Lizzie after she allegedly knew of JBs guilt.
No,I agree with Bubo,the police helped not only Julie,but Susan Battersby with their statements,I suspect that neither really wanted JB to go down but had no choice to maintain their own freedom.This is why Julie cried most of the way through her court evidence.

Julie left Bamber in August to return to London.

She then told 5 people and approached the police.

[Hardy Boy]

Do you not consider that there could have been coercive control from SBJ and the police? After all once they had broken her and established her and SB's fraud they could manipulate them to enhance the case against JB. All though there is plausibility in their stories the actual behaviours as Snow points out tell/suggest a different story. So whilst their testimony has some validity the police could not change verifiable history which could be told by others and runs counter to their narrative.

Could well be Bubo, through intimidation or exploit, control, create dependency, but when you look at the other check lists regarding Coersive Control, it's more relationship orientated and over a lenghth of time.  They needed her as much as she needed them, so i think it was a two way relationship?

[snow66!]

Julie left Bamber in August to return to London.

She then told 5 people and approached the police.

She left Goldhanger to go to London on 27thAug Adam. She didn't leave Bamber,and much happened between then and Julie going to the police around 6-7th sep or whenever.

[Adam]

She left Goldhanger to go to London on 27thAug Adam. She didn't leave Bamber,and much happened between then and Julie going to the police around 6-7th sep or whenever.

Her WS says she left because she couldn't take anymore.