Could Livor Mortis Help Prove Jeremy Bamber is innocent

[Rob_]

When Julie referred to 'bruises' could she have actually been referring to Livor Mortis?

In the case of Sheila and June Liver Mortis would have been mostly on their backs, bottoms and underside of their legs. I assume they were covered and Julie only saw their faces so I don't think this explains the marks that Julie thought were bruises?

[snow66!]

Rigor mortis occurs more rapidly in the very old because they have lower muscle mass.

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June was 34 years older than Sheila. That is if the photos do show anything, which I doubt. Need more than David's unqualified view.

I do admire Snow66!'s tenancity. Searching for something, anything.

Hi Adam,it is livor mortis we are discussing at the moment,the purple staining that occurs after death.

[snow66!]

In the case of Sheila and June Liver Mortis would have been mostly on their backs, bottoms and underside of their legs. I assume they were covered and Julie only saw their faces so I don't think this explains the marks that Julie thought were bruises?

Good point Rob.

[snow66!]

And what about Dr Craig,he should have known roughly how long Sheila had been dead.There are a number of easy ways to tell by the different stages of livor mortis.His statement seems more concerned with the upheaval in the kitchen and what type of rifle was lying on Sheila.I cant believe that he didnt make some sort of educated guess at times of death.Wouldn't the police have asked him for a rough idea? One look at Sheilas skin and a prod about at it would have been enough.Craig must have known how much lividity was present on each victim.Where are his notes? He was the first physician to see the bodies,his information should have been invaluable.Did he give any evidence at Trial?

[snow66!]

Is Dr Craig still alive? Why dont they interview someone like him for their documentaries and ask the questions we all want to know about.

[lookout]

The three adults should have been assessed on the state of livor mortis in judging their times of deaths. It takes about half an hour before it sets in from the time of death and is more pronounced where the most weight of the body has been, though the face is the first because of the lack of dense muscle.

[Rob_]

Rigor mortis occurs more rapidly in the very old because they have lower muscle mass.

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June was 34 years older than Sheila. That is if the photos do show anything, which I doubt. Need more than David's unqualified view.

I do admire Snow66!'s tenancity. Searching for something, anything.

I agree Adam that with the very old and the very young rigour mortis occurs more rapidly because as you say they have lower muscle mass.

However June can hardly be described as very old! also June and Sheila had similar body types (both very thin) they were in the same room so both at the same ambient temperature and according to the prosecution died at the same time? So to me Sheila's lack of rigour / livor needs more investigation?

I would love to see Taff's original notes, because it's my guess that it was the appearance of Sheila that convinced him it was suicide?

[snow66!]

The three adults should have been assessed on the state of livor mortis in judging their times of deaths. It takes about half an hour before it sets in from the time of death and is more pronounced where the most weight of the body has been, though the face is the first because of the lack of dense muscle.

Hi Lookout,this is what it says in CALs book page 177----Dr Craigs duty that morning was primarily to certify death and inform officers of any specific observations.He was not required to take body temperetures unless specifically asked.Nor was it general practice within Essex Police to estimate times of death based on that method without consulting a pathologist.Dr Craig could only estimate that the deaths at White House Farm had occurred 'some hours'before, within 'a short time' of each other;...... Is Craig trying to say lividity was at the same stage for each victim? Where is his documentation to prove this? Funny that the crime scene photos dont show any obvious purple patches on Sheila.

[snow66!]

I agree Adam that with the very old and the very young rigour mortis occurs more rapidly because as you say they have lower muscle mass.

However June can hardly be described as very old! also June and Sheila had similar body types (both very thin) they were in the same room so both at the same ambient temperature and according to the prosecution died at the same time? So to me Sheila's lack of rigour / livor needs more investigation?

I would love to see Taff's original notes, because it's my guess that it was the appearance of Sheila that convinced him it was suicide?

Yes Rob,and i am sure Dr Graig would have confirmed that she had not been dead very long.

[Rob_]

Yes Rob,and i am sure Dr Graig would have confirmed that she had not been dead very long.

Any homicide detective who has seen a lot of deceased bodies would know Snow, on average rigour starts around 2 to 4 hours and shows in the face / fingers first. The crime scene photos of Sheila are around 8 hours after death and not the slightest sign of rigour is present.

[snow66!]

From CALs book page 346 referring to his court appearance-------Dr Craig explained how difficult it was to establish a time of death;'It could have been any time during that night.'------Wow what an expert in the field of medicine,i presume this man was knighted by the Queen! I am in awe!

[Rob_]

From CALs book page 346 referring to his court appearance-------Dr Craig explained how difficult it was to establish a time of death;'It could have been any time during that night.'------Wow what an expert in the field of medicine,i presume this man was knighted by the Queen! I am in awe!

Well you only have to look at June and Sheila to see that something is amiss Snow, even if you were not sure of the time of death they both according to the prosecution died at the same time.

[snow66!]

Well you only have to look at June and Sheila to see that something is amiss Snow, even if you were not sure of the time of death they both according to the prosecution died at the same time.

Well,for a JB scenario they had to die about the same time Rob.Yet no evidence exists to prove this,if there was,it would have shut up the innocence brigade years ago when they started claiming Sheila died much later than the others.That means any documentation regarding time of death MUST indeed point to Sheila dying long after the others.What other reason could there be for witholding the morgue photos.Surely the guilters must see that withholding photos and destroying evidence is very suspicious indeed,and must cause doubt about Bambers guilt.

[snow66!]

I will say again why didn't Craig or even Vanezis explain why they knew the victims died about the same time.That should not have been hard to explain in order to shut doubters up,surely.

[Adam]

Well,for a JB scenario they had to die about the same time Rob.Yet no evidence exists to prove this,if there was,it would have shut up the innocence brigade years ago when they started claiming Sheila died much later than the others.That means any documentation regarding time of death MUST indeed point to Sheila dying long after the others.What other reason could there be for witholding the morgue photos.Surely the guilters must see that withholding photos and destroying evidence is very suspicious indeed,and must cause doubt about Bambers guilt.

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