Author Topic: Guardian 12th March  (Read 6836 times)

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Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #90 on: September 30, 2021, 10:18:PM »
I'd like to ask those who support Jeremy if they think life sentences are appropriate in principle..https://www.aol.co.uk/news/sarah-everard-killer-die-behind-174600003.html

Offline lookout

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #91 on: September 30, 2021, 10:36:PM »
I'd have had Couzens hanged !

Offline lookout

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #92 on: September 30, 2021, 10:39:PM »
Those with absolute proof of murder should be put to death.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #93 on: September 30, 2021, 11:14:PM »
Those with absolute proof of murder should be put to death.
It would solve one problem, though may bring others in its wake.

guest29835

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #94 on: September 30, 2021, 11:36:PM »
Nobody is smug, faced with the loss of two six-year-old boys, their mother and grandparents. As for your last sentence he let the cat out of the bag with Julie, the first time was at Gresham's with his adoption revelation, so given what resulted on both occasions he's not about to disclose any further personal information anytime soon.

The only surviving victim who lost his own children was Colin.  Is he in the documentary?  I otherwise stand by my remarks.  I doubt the relatives were emotionally very upset at what happened.

Offline lookout

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #95 on: October 01, 2021, 11:51:AM »
It would solve one problem, though may bring others in its wake.





Would anyone miss a murderer ? If they had any sense it would be a resounding NO !

Offline lookout

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #96 on: October 01, 2021, 12:13:PM »
Steve, if anyone killed/ murdered a member of my family I'd want them dead. No question about it.

Offline Rob_

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #97 on: October 01, 2021, 01:58:PM »
Steve, if anyone killed/ murdered a member of my family I'd want them dead. No question about it.

I myself Lookout don't believe a civilised society should execute anyone, but I know where you are coming from.

It's also very easy now with a bit of planted DNA to frame someone, so I would want to see DNA + other evidence backing up the conviction. Not just DNA on it's own, look at the USA well over 100 people have been executed and afterwards the convictions found unsafe.

Offline lookout

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #98 on: October 01, 2021, 02:18:PM »
I myself Lookout don't believe a civilised society should execute anyone, but I know where you are coming from.

It's also very easy now with a bit of planted DNA to frame someone, so I would want to see DNA + other evidence backing up the conviction. Not just DNA on it's own, look at the USA well over 100 people have been executed and afterwards the convictions found unsafe.





Rob, there's a frightening lack of brain power when it comes to investigating a murder. Where there's been one unsafe execution is an execution too many ! Something's radically wrong with the system both in the USA and here, especially, along with those who run the systems.
Churchill once said---" All men make mistakes, but only wise men learn from their mistakes ". Which begs the question, where are all these " wise men  ?"

Mistakes are supposed to increase experience. What happened ?

guest29835

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #99 on: October 01, 2021, 02:22:PM »




Rob, there's a frightening lack of brain power when it comes to investigating a murder. Where there's been one unsafe execution is an execution too many ! Something's radically wrong with the system both in the USA and here, especially, along with those who run the systems.
Churchill once said---" All men make mistakes, but only wise men learn from their mistakes ". Which begs the question, where are all these " wise men  ?"

Mistakes are supposed to increase experience. What happened ?

Terror of fallibility.  People don't want to admit and own up to mistakes and human error.   

Offline lookout

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #100 on: October 01, 2021, 02:27:PM »
Terror of fallibility.  People don't want to admit and own up to mistakes and human error.   




Which can be dangerous.

Offline lookout

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #101 on: October 01, 2021, 02:32:PM »
I myself Lookout don't believe a civilised society should execute anyone, but I know where you are coming from.

It's also very easy now with a bit of planted DNA to frame someone, so I would want to see DNA + other evidence backing up the conviction. Not just DNA on it's own, look at the USA well over 100 people have been executed and afterwards the convictions found unsafe.





It's also uncivilised for a person to randomly kill another and remain alive to breathe the same air.

guest29835

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #102 on: October 01, 2021, 02:47:PM »

It's also uncivilised for a person to randomly kill another and remain alive to breathe the same air.

In cases of premeditated murder, the punishment should be death.

Offline Roch

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #103 on: October 01, 2021, 02:56:PM »
In cases of premeditated murder, the punishment should be death.

If we could trust our police, state and relevant authorative bodies to act, behave and function in an efficient, non corrupt, honest manner, then it might be possible to rely upon 'death' as being a suitable punishment for such crimes.

guest29835

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Re: Guardian 12th March
« Reply #104 on: October 01, 2021, 03:22:PM »

Which can be dangerous.

Do any of us publicly admit to error?  It is a brave person who does and to do so runs somewhat contrary to human nature, which is what it is.  It is ingrained in each of us that when we think we are certain of something, we must be right, when it should actually be the other way round.  We should remind ourselves that the more we think we are right, the more likely we are to be wrong - this has been demonstrated time and again in my own experience of watching others and thinking about my own actions in real situations.

In my trade, there is a useful saying: Measure twice, cut once.  This is good to remember, not just for cutting and joining things.  You can be certain you are right about something that seems very obvious and simple, but find you are completely wrong.  Unfortunately, intelligent decisions require humility, which is a quality in short supply.

I believe in the past bodies like the police were covering things up for fear of the consequences and cutting corners or inventing evidence in the firm belief that they were dealing with a guilty person.  This is a major example of the fallacy of certainty (or 'the fallacy of alleged certainty', as it is sometimes known formally).  The policeman assumes guilt, thus everything he hears is interpreted through that prior conclusion, in a process of convergence bias.  This is of course a very common intellectual flaw, and we all fall into it from time-to-time.  It probably has an evolutionary origin in that it may have been necessary for primeval Man to think and analyse situations quickly for survival purposes, resulting in a tendency against balanced or convoluted thinking. There are a few more checks and balances in the system now, but I see no fundamental reason the same fallacy should not be widespread today, as I believe human nature is at play.

If anything, I believe it could be worse now.  For one thing, there is the danger of deference to scientific evidence, such as DNA.  Genetic identification is widely seen as infallible but it isn't, and it should not be a means for the prosecution to circumvent the burden of proof. 

The jury is meant to be one of the checks in the system against wrongful convictions.  Juries have always made bad decisions.  The general flaw in the institution of juries is very obvious.  It's argued that inquisitorial criminal justice systems have fewer miscarriages of justice, but I think it more likely that in systems without juries there is a greater readiness to overturn wrong decisions.  The Anglo-American common law system of jurisprudence sanctifies the jury, which is really a way of entrenching wrong or fallacious decisions.

Yet a jury of very ordinary people that can hear and consider all the evidence and facts in the round provides a last resort against the natural tendency to believe experts uncritically or defer to voices of authority: a tendency that is especially prevalent among experts themselves.  A panel of judges hearing a case will naturally tend to demote their own common-sense and everyday experiences and believe experts.  A jury, by contrast, can decide in secret and is not accountable or answerable for its decisions, thus not subject to the ordinary social pressures and influences that can lead to uncritical acceptance of expertise; and the jury can, if it so chooses, disregard expertise and acquit a defendant by considering the evidence from a layperson's point-of-view and measuring it against everyday experience and the juries' own idiosyncratic evaluation of the experts - which will often be more accurate than that of the experts themselves.  This protection has been eroded by majority verdicts, and a climate in society that gives overdue regard to credentials and 'science' and demotes experience and subjectivity.  Unless jurors can think for themselves, they may be tempted just to ratify expert opinions.  The Sally Clarke case seems to be an example of this.

On a different but related note, I have been involved in training in different places and have closely-observed how schools, colleges and universities now work.  There is very much a belief that all must pass, with the result that many young people are carrying around useless paper credentials rather than gaining skills and experiences. Does this encourage the increasing spread of robotic deference to expertise and credentials that 'educated' people especially can sometimes fall into?  Does it encourage needless abstract thinking that militates against practical sense and experience, making good decisions rarer to find?