What Happened In The Kitchen?

[guest29835]

Bamber did shoot him. Four times upstairs. He had no more bullets until reloading. So there was the kitchen fight.

There were 10 or 11 bullets in a fully-loaded rifle (the precise number depending on whether there was already a cartridge in the breech), so to me your numbers can only add up if one of the following applies:

(i). Jeremy embarked on this massacre with a rifle that wasn't fully-loaded; or,
(ii). Jeremy decided to attack the twins first.

Neither of these makes sense to me.  Possibility (i) doesn't make sense because Jeremy would make sure he had a fully-loaded rifle to deal with all eventualities, and while I accept this is an assumption, it is a reasonable operating assumption in the absence of evidence to the contrary.  Possibility (ii) doesn't make sense because Nevill is the threat; by attacking the twins first, even with a silencer, he runs a high risk of discovery with Nevill fleeing outside or to the kitchen phone. 

I thought he was supposed to have planned it all?  You lot do keep telling me that, so I'm afraid we'll have to base our assumptions and conclusions on that premise and accept what follows.  Of course, Nevill fleeing is exactly what happened (if we accept Jeremy is the killer), but the point is that Jeremy would not have pre-planned things that way, it being much more likely that he attacked the parents first and something went wrong at that early stage.

Ainsley agreed with me at least on this point.  He said in his report to the DPP that Jeremy attacked the parents first and he has Jeremy attacking the twins only after re-loading.

But I now see why a lot of dogmatic pro-guilt people need Jeremy to have killed the twins first.  It's because otherwise the scenario doesn't make a great deal of sense ballistically and choreographically.

Let's err on the side of the pro-guilt camp and say that the twins were attacked first.  For now, we'll shelve the problems with the scenario and just assume it.  This means the twins have nine bullets in them.  That means Jeremy has only one or two bullets left, depending on whether he started with a cartridge in the breech.  Let's be conservative and say he has two bullets left. 

Does Jeremy go to the master bedroom now or does he go downstairs and re-load?  Or was he carrying the bullets with him?

What wakes up Nevill?  What wakes up June?  Is the dog barking?  Nevill wasn't shot in bed, but it looks like June was. 

If Jeremy doesn't re-load on the move and we say, to give the Crown the benefit of the doubt, that he has two bullets left, then does he shoot June with the two bullets, then realise he is out of ammunition and there then follows the struggle in the kitchen with Nevill?

If so, how do you explain the bullet casings on the landing, which seem to point to somebody being shot on the stairs?  Where does Jeremy get the ammunition from?

Another thing - let's say Jeremy doesn't fire nine times into the twins in the first fusillade in that room, meaning Jeremy has more bullets available for his assault on the master bedroom, then how come June is still crawling around the master bedroom while Nevill and Jeremy are struggling downstairs?  The bullet count does not reckon with what is claimed happened.

Also, if Jeremy is out of bullets upstairs, why does Nevill even need to go downstairs?  Why isn't there evidence of a struggle upstairs in which Nevill endeavours to save June, Sheila and the twins, perhaps even barricading himself in the twins' bedroom (not realising that Jeremy has already shot them)?  And given that, in actuality, Nevill does go downstairs, that means Jeremy is going downstairs as well, presumably to re-load, so why is there no blood on the phone?  Why is there no 999 call from Nevill?  And what is Sheila doing while all this is happening?  Are you seriously telling me she is asleep?

Unless I am missing some key fact, I'm sorry to say at the moment it doesn't make sense.  Obviously there will always be problems and questions with any scenario, but this doesn't fundamentally hang together.  Worryingly, a coherent Sheila scenario is much easier to construct.

[Steve_uk]

Because Nevill phoned him before the shooting started, or as the shooting started, as I've just said.

Jeremy's detractors, and the courts, have taken it upon themselves to assume that Nevill could only call after the shooting started, but why must that be the case?  It's entirely plausible for Nevill to call before Sheila starts shooting.  Why is it assumed otherwise?  Has Jeremy himself ever said otherwise? 

There is no blood on the upstairs phone or in the upstairs office and there is no blood trail to the kitchen (a problem for the prosecution that none of you seem able to explain).

The idea that Nevill would casually ring Jeremy after being shot four times, including twice in the head, has to be considered a fairy story - a canard, advanced to suit the prosecution argument in that it makes Jeremy's defence seem implausible.

Yes and then he conveniently went back upstairs to bed under the covers so Sheila could shoot him like a sitting duck..

[Steve_uk]

While Sheila took the gun upstairs to shoot June. Nevill rang Jeremy. Nevil ended the call and ran upstairs as he heard shots being fired. Sheila had fired five shots at June. She then pivoted and shot Nevill with the remaining four bullets in the magazine as Nevill came up the stairs.

Nevill retreated the to the kitchen and then collapsed where his body was later found. Sheila then wacked him with the rife. Before reloading to shoot him another four times in the head.

Yes and as she was shooting her dad she says: "Nevill dear don't come near or my nightie will get dirty and my nail polish and mascara will get smudged.."

[guest29835]

Yes and then he conveniently went back upstairs to bed under the covers so Sheila could shoot him like a sitting duck..

What specifically is your evidence for that?

[Adam]

There were 10 or 11 bullets in a fully-loaded rifle (the precise number depending on whether there was already a cartridge in the breech), so to me your numbers can only add up if one of the following applies:

(i). Jeremy embarked on this massacre with a rifle that wasn't fully-loaded; or,
(ii). Jeremy decided to attack the twins first.

Neither of these makes sense to me.  Possibility (i) doesn't make sense because Jeremy would make sure he had a fully-loaded rifle to deal with all eventualities, and while I accept this is an assumption, it is a reasonable operating assumption in the absence of evidence to the contrary.  Possibility (ii) doesn't make sense because Nevill is the threat; by attacking the twins first, even with a silencer, he runs a high risk of discovery with Nevill fleeing outside or to the kitchen phone. 

I thought he was supposed to have planned it all?  You lot do keep telling me that, so I'm afraid we'll have to base our assumptions and conclusions on that premise and accept what follows.  Of course, Nevill fleeing is exactly what happened (if we accept Jeremy is the killer), but the point is that Jeremy would not have pre-planned things that way, it being much more likely that he attacked the parents first and something went wrong at that early stage.

Ainsley agreed with me at least on this point.  He said in his report to the DPP that Jeremy attacked the parents first and he has Jeremy attacking the twins only after re-loading.

But I now see why a lot of dogmatic pro-guilt people need Jeremy to have killed the twins first.  It's because otherwise the scenario doesn't make a great deal of sense ballistically and choreographically.

Let's err on the side of the pro-guilt camp and say that the twins were attacked first.  For now, we'll shelve the problems with the scenario and just assume it.  This means the twins have nine bullets in them.  That means Jeremy has only one or two bullets left, depending on whether he started with a cartridge in the breech.  Let's be conservative and say he has two bullets left. 

Does Jeremy go to the master bedroom now or does he go downstairs and re-load?  Or was he carrying the bullets with him?

What wakes up Nevill?  What wakes up June?  Is the dog barking?  Nevill wasn't shot in bed, but it looks like June was. 

If Jeremy doesn't re-load on the move and we say, to give the Crown the benefit of the doubt, that he has two bullets left, then does he shoot June with the two bullets, then realise he is out of ammunition and there then follows the struggle in the kitchen with Nevill?

If so, how do you explain the bullet casings on the landing, which seem to point to somebody being shot on the stairs?  Where does Jeremy get the ammunition from?

Another thing - let's say Jeremy doesn't fire nine times into the twins in the first fusillade in that room, meaning Jeremy has more bullets available for his assault on the master bedroom, then how come June is still crawling around the master bedroom while Nevill and Jeremy are struggling downstairs?  The bullet count does not reckon with what is claimed happened.

Also, if Jeremy is out of bullets upstairs, why does Nevill even need to go downstairs?  Why isn't there evidence of a struggle upstairs in which Nevill endeavours to save June, Sheila and the twins, perhaps even barricading himself in the twins' bedroom (not realising that Jeremy has already shot them)?  And given that, in actuality, Nevill does go downstairs, that means Jeremy is going downstairs as well, presumably to re-load, so why is there no blood on the phone?  Why is there no 999 call from Nevill?  And what is Sheila doing while all this is happening?  Are you seriously telling me she is asleep?

Unless I am missing some key fact, I'm sorry to say at the moment it doesn't make sense.  Obviously there will always be problems and questions with any scenario, but this doesn't fundamentally hang together.  Worryingly, a coherent Sheila scenario is much easier to construct.

Bamber went upstairs with 11 bullets.

Two into the twins. Nine into June & Nevill.

Nevill ran downstairs to the kitchen as he was being shot 4 times. Either being caught before reaching the door. Or Bamber had disabled the door by taking the key out.

[guest29835]

Bamber went upstairs with 11 bullets.

Two into the twins. Nine into June & Nevill.

Nevill ran downstairs to the kitchen as he was being shot 4 times. Either being caught before reaching the door. Or Bamber had disabled the door by taking the key out.

He must have been caught before reaching the door, as there is no blood evidence to the contrary. 

So you're saying that Jeremy ran out of bullets upstairs.

This means he fired twice into the twins, five times into June and four times into Nevill.

I can accept that Jeremy might attack the twins first because he may have been thinking about the risk of one or both of them up and moving around and maybe hiding somewhere in the dark or even escaping the house.

The problems with all this are as follows:

(i). How does June move around after being shot five times? 

(ii). Where is Sheila?  Don't tell me she was asleep.  There was gun fire on the main landing right outside her bedroom, and all the bedrooms are close together. 

(iii). When Jeremy enters the master bedroom (I'm not sure from which door), he must have intended to fire on Nevill first because Nevill is the threat.  Yet Jeremy is firing five times into June and Nevill escapes.  That tells me Nevill has a considerable head start.  Jeremy does catch him on the stairs, firing at him twice from the landing (after hitting him twice in the bedroom, if you believe the bullet casings), nevertheless the question is why Nevill doesn't make it to the back door or the kitchen phone - one or the other - or maybe even his den.  He hadn't been shot in the leg.

(iv). Where is the blood trail between the main landing and the kitchen?

[Adam]

June was able to move after being shot 5 times. She later received 2 shots which would have killed her quickly.

Sheila was asleep. The 11 upstairs shots were fired with a silencer attached in other rooms.  Daniel & Nicholas did not wake. June woke for a short while after she had been shot 5 times.

Bamber did shoot Nevill 4 times  upstairs before running out of bullets and Nevill getting past him.

Bamber caught up with Nevill in the kitchen. Probably a few feet behind him as Nevill ran downstairs. 

[guest29835]

June was able to move after being shot 5 times. She later received 2 shots which would have killed her quickly.

Sheila was asleep. The 11 upstairs shots were fired with a silencer attached in other rooms.  Daniel & Nicholas did not wake. June woke for a short while after she had been shot 5 times.

Bamber did shoot Nevill 4 times  upstairs before running out of bullets and Nevill getting past him.

Bamber caught up with Nevill in the kitchen. Probably a few feet behind him as Nevill ran downstairs.

For me, the points of issue here are:

(i). I do not believe the silencer was used in the killings, and anyway, there is no conclusive evidence to say it was.

(ii). If we assume the silencer was used in the killings, the issue then is the noise impact of a small calibre moderated rifle inside the farmhouse using subsonic bullets.  Jeremy may have used the silencer in anticipation of this problem, but he would not necessarily know what the impact would be as he could hardly practice beforehand.  Personally I suspect the effect of the moderator would not have been great and I find it hard to believe Sheila would not have woken.

(iii). You assume that Jeremy fires expertly at the twins from some distance.  That being the case, how was Nevill able to escape the master bedroom?  Whichever way you look at it, at that point Jeremy has the advantage and could have felled Nevill easily.

(iv). How can June move around if she has been shot five times?  We need to know what the extent of the blood trail is in the master bedroom and her movements have to be explained.  The wounds to her should be expected to have incapacitated her.

(v). How can an injured Nevill, having been shot four times, move from the master bedroom to the kitchen while leaving almost no discernible blood trail?  How is that possible?

(vi). How can Nevill even move at all?  How can it be that the two shots to his face don't fell him there and then?  Did he get up and start moving again?  If so, why didn't Jeremy just kill him or overcome him?  And where is all the blood?

(vii). Why does Jeremy return to the twins' bedroom later and shoot them again, another six times?  What was the purpose of this?

(viii). What doesn't Sheila investigate the commotion and get Nevill and June's blood on her hands and feet and night dress?

(ix). If Sheila really did sleep through the whole thing, when does she wake?  And what does Jeremy do when she wakes?  Does Jeremy wake her up to move her to the master bedroom?  Does he carry her while she is asleep or drowsy?

Bamber caught up with Nevill in the kitchen. Probably a few feet behind him as Nevill ran downstairs.

Logic tells me that Jeremy has to catch him, and if he didn't catch him, then that must mean he had a considerable head start, and if he has a considerable head start and he isn't shot in the legs, then how does Jeremy catch up with him in the kitchen?  Why didn't he either make his escape or dial 999 from the kitchen phone?  We know he didn't make it to the back door because there's no blood.

If Nevill can survive four gun shots, why can't he survive a physical assault from Jeremy and make it to the back door before Jeremy can re-load?  If the blood evidence was lost and he did make it there and found the back door locked, why did he return to the kitchen where Jeremy was?  Why not barricade himself in the den, which also housed the gun cupboard? 

Whose blood prints are on the worktop?  If it's Nevill's, then how come there isn't blood on the phone as well? 

[Adam]

Sheila's blood is in the silencer. She recieved a contact shot in a location with high blood flow. The aga paint was also in the silencer.

June moved after being shot 5 times in bed, because the shots did not kill her.

The 4 upstairs shots to Nevill did not incapacitate him.

There is a recent poll on how Bamber would move Sheila around 15 feet.

Nevill won't dial 999 as Bamber is a few feet behind him & trying to kill him.

Bamber won't reload until Nevill has been knocked out in the kitchen. The injuries Nevill received shows he would have been knocked out.

[Adam]

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,10125.msg474635.html#msg474635

Bamber committing the massacre to match the evidence is straight forward.

People want to make it more complicated than it would be. Creating obsacles that won't exist using there own variables. Then refusing to give a Sheila scenario to match the evidence.

But each to their own.

[guest29835]

Sheila's blood is in the silencer.

Sorry but I think you're wrong from the very beginning.  It has not been proved that Sheila's blood is in the silencer.

June moved after being shot 5 times in bed, because the shots did not kill her.

Just because somebody has not been killed, it doesn't follow that they can move.  I think she did move, but the question is what was the probable order of firing in relation to the shots to her given that there is evidence she moved.  You want to say she was shot five times but you also say she was still moving around, because it suits you.  Personally I have no stake in this, I just want to know what the evidence says.  For that, I would need to be clearer about the extent of the blood found.

There is a recent poll on how Bamber would move Sheila around 15 feet.

And I reminded you in that thread that sedation cannot figure in any explanation, so you've now dropped that and you're now relying on her being asleep. 

won't dial 999 as Bamber is a few feet behind him & trying to kill him.

Depends.  Nevill may instinctively go for the phone on the basis that as soon as he notifies the outside world, the gaff is blown.

  won't reload until Nevill has been knocked out in the kitchen. The injuries Nevill received shows he would have been knocked out.

For me, whether that is plausible depends on a number of things prior to it, for which questions are unresolved.  I really don't understand how, if Nevill is ahead of Jeremy, he doesn't reach the back door or the den. 

[Adam]

June was shot 5 times in bed. In the opening 11 shots. She was not killed and able to move a few feet. The evidence shows this. Not sure what else can be said.

Sheila's blood and the aga paint is in the silencer. Not sure what else can be said.

Sheila was under sedation as stated by the Court of Appeal. Although would have slept through the upstairs shots anyway.

If Nevill was trying to get outside, he didn't make it. Bamber could have taken the key out.

[guest29835]

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,10125.msg474635.html#msg474635

Bamber committing the massacre to match the evidence is straight forward.

People want to make it more complicated than it would be. Creating obsacles that won't exist using there own variables. Then refusing to give a Sheila scenario to match the evidence.

But each to their own.

This is not true.

First, I have contributed a Sheila scenario.  I have also mentioned it several times.   I have also established that the sedation explanation for Sheila's placidity has no foundation and I now see that you no longer mention it.  You now say she was asleep throughout the massacre of her family taking place yards away in the same house.

I have put forward a case for why, on the evidence, Nevill could not have dialled 999.

I've also narrowed you down to a precise incident sequence and chronology.  You now tell us that Jeremy ran out of bullets upstairs and you say that Nevill was running for the back door.

I've also raised questions about Jeremy's actions, in particular the 3 a.m. phone call, which I consider very suspicious.

I've also advanced a new theory about Julie Mugford involving the possibility that she was in fact Jeremy's accomplice.

What I'm doing is testing the Crown's case using the evidence.  I have no stake in the matter, one way or the other.  I'm not on Jeremy's side, but I'm not on the side of the authorities either.

Don't mislead people about me again and don't tell me what I should or should not do.  Nobody forces you to read my posts or engage me.

[guest29835]

Sheila was under sedation as stated by the Court of Appeal. Although would have slept through the upstairs shots anyway.

This post crossed with my own and we've gone over the other points.

The Court of Appeal did not say that Sheila was under sedation - you're providing a simplified interpretation of what they stated in the judgment.  They said that the drug has sedative effects at the levels prescribed, which is a general statement - and there's plenty of informed opinion to suggest it is wrong.  Did the Court of Appeal take evidence from experts on this?

The bottom line is this:

It has not been established she was sedated, and if you want to advance this as your explanation, then the onus is on you to prove it, which you can't.

[Adam]

This post crossed with my own and we've gone over the other points.

The Court of Appeal did not say that Sheila was under sedation - you're providing a simplified interpretation of what they stated in the judgment.  They said that the drug has sedative effects at the levels prescribed, which is a general statement - and there's plenty of informed opinion to suggest it is wrong.  Did the Court of Appeal take evidence from experts on this?

The bottom line is this:

It has not been established she was sedated, and if you want to advance this as your explanation, then the onus is on you to prove it, which you can't.

Sheila wad on Haloperiodol. As said, she would have slept through the upstairs shots anyway.