Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Adam on September 19, 2019, 12:08:PM
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124.
During this conversation the appellant said he saw rabbits outside the house so he took the .22 rifle from the office/den, loaded it with eight to ten rounds from a box of ammunition that he left in the kitchen and went outside.
In fact he fired no shots outside and he then left the gun in the kitchen having removed the magazine and the bullet which was in the breach.
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A few issues here.
Bamber took the time to remove the magazine and the bullet in the breach. However did not do the easier thing of putting all items away.
Nevill and June did not notice the rifle, magazine and bullet before going to bed.
Sheila entered the kitchen first, several minutes or hours before Nevill. She saw the magazine, rifle and bullet.
Sheila fully loaded the rifle before Nevill woke & got downstairs.
Although Sheila had fully loaded the rifle, she did not go upstairs and use it straight away. She was calm enough to wait downstairs for minutes or hours until Nevill arrived downstairs.
Nevill waking and going downstairs somehow enraged Sheila, although he would have tried to calm her down.
Although Nevill had enraged Sheila, he was able to phone Bamber after deciding to not disarm her.
Sheila and Nevill were not in the kitchen together calmly speaking to each other. There was no escalation. Sheila was already holding the rifle when Nevill arrived downstairs.
Sheila had gone downstairs alone. Bare footed and in her nightie.
Sheila had not decided to committ murder/suicide when going downstairs. She only decided this after Nevill got downstairs.
Although Sheila was calm enough to stay downstairs, Nevill was somehow woken and went downstairs. Bare footed and in pyjamas.
June and the twins were not woken either before or after Nevill woke and arrived downstairs.
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Always thought Sheila was supposed to have picked up a fully loaded rifle with Nevill also in the kitchen. Bamber says this could not have happened.
There is no way Nevill would have let Sheila load the rifle. Therefore he was upstairs, probably asleep while the rifle was being loaded.
Sheila waited for Nevill to get downstairs and ring Bamber. Before going upstairs & opening fire.
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This explains part of the Sheila scenario -
Sheila went downstairs alone.
Sheila loaded the rifle.
Sheila waited downstairs.
Sheila may have started shouting in the kitchen to get a reaction.
Nevill woke and went downstairs. June & the twins did not wake.
Nevill sees Sheila holding the rifle in the kitchen and immediately rings Jeremy. Sheila lets Nevill make this call.
Sheila goes upstairs with the rifle. Nevill lets her.
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Always thought Sheila was supposed to have picked up a fully loaded rifle with Nevill also in the kitchen. Bamber says this could not have happened.
There is no way Nevill would have let Sheila load the rifle. Therefore he was upstairs, probably asleep while the rifle was being loaded.
Sheila waited for Nevill to get downstairs and ring Bamber. Before going upstairs & opening fire.
If you want to convince us that Bamber is guilty. The burden is on you to prove something meaningful. It is not my job or the forums to come up with alternative explanations for your speculations and assumptions.
The presence of copper on Sheila’s left hand, and presence of lead on her right hand. That is something meaningful and indicates she not only inserted the magazine in the rifle but also re-filled the magazine once it was necessary to do so.
Creating a “no way” scenario out of thin air does not challenge what I have mentioned above.
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1. Perfectly clean palm of hands on Sheila - Not disputed - COA
2. One blood mark on back of hand of Sheila - Not disputed - COA
3. Extremley low levels of lead found on hands on Sheila. Not consistent with handling a rifle. Significantly higher traces expected - Not disputed - COA, BAMBER'S DEFENCE.
4. Well manicured nails on Sheila - Not disputed - COA.
5. No broken nails - Not disputed COA.
6. Nails in tact - Not disputed - COA.
7. No marks or indentations on Sheila's fingers - Not disputed - COA.
8. No blood on finger tips - Not disputed - COA.
9. No dirt on finger tips - Not disputed - COA.
10. No powder on finger tips - Not disputed - COA.
11. Sheila's time limits - Not disputed - POLICE, BAMBER.
12. No trace of any lead dust coating on Sheila - Not disputed - COA.
13. No traces of the lubricant from re loading twice - Not disputed - COA
14. Very clean feet - Disputed with one picture of foot with redness - COA.
15. Feet free from significant blood staining - Disputed with one picture of foot with redness - COA.
16. Bamber doing nothing between 3.10am - 3.26/36am - Not disputed - BAMBER
17. No debris such as sugar on feet - Not disputed - COA.
18. No foot injuries after bare footed aggressive movement around big house & brutal fight - Not disputed - PHOTOGRAPHS, PATHOLOGIST.
19. Only Sheila Caffell's blood on nightdress - Not disputed - COA.
20. No presence of firearm residue on nightdress - Not disputed - COA.
21. No trace of rifle oil on nightdress - Not disputed - COA.
22. No mention of nightdress damage from agressive movement and brutal kitchen fight - Not disputed - COA.
23. No facial injuries on Sheila - Not disputed - PHOTOGRAPHS, PATHOLOGIST.
24. Sheila avoiding kitchen fight injuries with no body or face protection - Not disputed - FORUM.
25. Nevill's massive height/weight advantage over Sheila - Not disputed - ACCEPTED FACT.
26. Impossibility of shower removing evidence off Sheila - Not disputed - SCIENTIFIC FACT.
27. Impossibility of Sheila showering after killing herself - Not disputed - SCIENTIFIC FACT.
28. Nevill being found bare footed in pyjamas suggesting had just got out of bed - Not disputed - PHOTOS.
29. Sheila being found bare footed in pyjamas suggesting she had just got out of bed - Not disputed - PHOTOS.
30. Paint in silencer - Not disputed but suggestion from Bamber cousins did this - NUMEROUS SOURCES. .
31. Aga scratch's - Not disputed but suggestion from Bamber cousins did this - NUMEROUS SOURCES.
32. Blood in silencer - Not disputed but suggestion from Bamber cousins did this - NUMEROUS SOURCES.
33. No blood in the rifle end - Not disputed - NUMEROUS SOURCES.
34. Sheila's legs pulled after second shot - Not disputed - COA.
35. Blood underneath the bible - Not disputed - COA.
36. A lot of blood on Nevill's side of the bed - Not disputed - PHOTOGRAPHS.
37. Large scale multiple mental & physical effects of Haloperidol - Not disputed. - INTERNET ARTICLES, YOUTUBE.
38. Sheila having Haloperidol in her body - Not disputed - COA.
39. Sheila's condition hours before the massacre - Not disputed. Bamber being a main witness - BAMBER & OTHER PEOPLE.
40. Sheila under sedation - Not disputed - COA.
41. Easy window entrance into WHF - Not disputed. Agreed by Bamber. - BAMBER.
42. Shutting kitchen window from outside - Disputed in 2017 but 20 independent sources prove otherwise - 20 SOURCES IN THE LIBRARY.
43. No better massacre weapon options for Bamber - Not disputed - FORUM.
44. Professor Herbert Leon Mcdonell - Not disputed after Bamber hired him - WILKES'S BOOK.
45. Easy bike routes to WHF - Not disputed - NUMEROUS SOURCES.
46. Bike brought to Bamber's cottage just before the massacre - Not disputed - BAMBERS POLICE INTERVIEWS.
47. June not waking or getting woken by Nevill - Not disputed - COA.
48. Nevill's back burns - Not disputed. Suggestion burns were caused minus silencer rejected - BAMBER, TONIGHT PROGRAMME.
49. 2012 CCRC court judgement - judicial review request made & rejected - JUDICIAL REVIEW DOCUMENT.
50. The twins not waking - Not disputed - NUMEROUS SOURCES.
51. Bamber's call to the police - Not disputed - NUMEROUS SOURCES.
52. Nevill's horrific injuries - Not disputed - COURT OF APPEAL.
53. Sheila's time limits - Not disputed - POLICE STATEMENTS.
54. No valid Sheila scenario - Not disputed - OS & FORUM.
55. Bamber's 3am call to Julie - Not disputed - BAMBER.
56. Nevill's 2/4 second call to Bamber - Not disputed - BAMBER.
57. Bamber asking the police to pick him up - Not disputed - WILKES, CRIMES, HEARTS & CORONETS.
58. Nevill's back burns - Not disputed - BAMBER.
59. Ease for a man to lift & carry a woman - Not disputed. YOUTUBE VIDEO.
60. Crime scenes of 5 individuals - Not disputed - COA.
61. Bamber's found hacksaw - Not disputed - BAMBER.
62. Bible on Sheila's arm- Not disputed - PHOTOGRAPHS.
63. Only execution period available to Bamber, 12am - 3am - Not disputed - BAMBER
64. Housekeeper evidence of items around the sink being moved - Not disputed- PB WS, WILKES'S BOOK
65. Only Sheila receiving a contact shot in a location that produces back splatter- Not disputed, COA.
66. Bloodied plam print on Sheila's nightdress - Not disputed. COA.
67. Nevill being lifted onto a coal scuttle - CRIME SCENE PICTURES.
68. Dried blood on Sheila - PATHOLOGIST.
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It is not about proving anything. Bamber's guilt is beyond doubt.
There is one alive convicted suspect, with several motives, an opportunity and no alibi. Together with a witness - Julie Mugford, and a mountain of forensic (above) and circumstantial evidence.
I only found out this week that Bamber left the rifle empty. This means Bamber is saying Sheila loaded the rifle while Nevill was asleep, then waited for Nevill to get downstairs.
Nevill somehow decided to & was able to spend several minutes ringing Jeremy, although then only spent 4 seconds speaking to him.
Sheila after loading the rifle was not in such a rage as to go upstairs and use it. Nevill put her in this rage when he went downstairs. This is a surprise as he was the one person who could calm her down.
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Once an honest debate no longer becomes possible. Adam resorts to the good old gish gallop! The fallacious debate tactic of drowning your opponent in a flood of individually-weak arguments in order to prevent rebuttal of the whole argument collection without great effort.
;D
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop)
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Empty vessels make the most noise. ;D
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Empty vessels make the most noise. ;D
He has started this whole new "no way" scenario. That requires him to believe Jeremy is an honest and credible witness. Is his vessel that empty even he cannot work out the problem there? ???
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Once an honest debate no longer becomes possible. Adam resorts to the good old gish gallop! The fallacious debate tactic of drowning your opponent in a flood of individually-weak arguments in order to prevent rebuttal of the whole argument collection without great effort.
;D
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop)
David you must take Caroline's approach - Bamber is guilty but the silencer was fabricated.
You both agree the silencer was fabricated. You believing the relatives used Sheila's wet period blood.
You have never supported the industrial frame, so the evidence makes Bamber guilty.
Do you agree Sheila would have loaded the rifle while Nevill was asleep?
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Brian Elliot’s lab notes and trial testimony is evidence that Sheila’s hands were not clean at all. If the COA give a contradictory view, then it says a lot about the COAs integrity. I don’t know who Adam thinks he is fooling citing them as his “undisputed source”. ::)
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Lets deal with Adam's obsession with oil and firearm residue on Sheila's nightdress.
Fletcher made this claim that if Sheila's wounds were self inflicted he would have expected to have found
residue on Sheila's nightdress. It was then put to Fletcher that the fact the gun was held in that position regardless, his claim was meaningless and he conceded.
Mr M.D Fletcher Cross Examined
Q: You postulated Mr. Fletcher, didn't you, that if the wounds were self-inflicted, the wounds to Mrs. Caffell, you would have expected to find traces of oil and firearms discharge on the front of her nightdress?
A: I did qualify that by saying if the wounds were self-inflicted, using a rifle held close to the body.
Q: You obviously worked out the approximate angles of fire, as explored?
A: I had looked at some possible angles of fire yes.
Q: You had seen the X-rays.
A: I am sorry I misunderstood. I thought you meant the ways of holding the gun rather than the track of the bullet. I beg your pardon, I see now yes.
Q: I think you have seen the sketches that we have put forward, which are agreed, yes?
A: Yes I have.
Q: Number 1 on the sketch is the contact wound.
A: Yes sir.
Q: With the gun held pointing at that angle would you expect residue on the nightdress.
A: You could certainly position the head and gun so that it would be possible to get residue on the nightdress.
Q: The point is surely Mr. Fletcher that it doesn't make any difference whatsoever whether the wound is self-inflicted or inflicted by anybody else, if the gun is held at a particular angle you might get residue on the nightdress?
A: If held in the correct position certainly. Close to the body at the correct angle for the projection of the bullet in the head.
Q: Why is that correct?
A: To fulfil the requirements for the residue to get on to the nightdress.
Q: It doesn't help us to be certain whether they were self-inflicted or inflicted by another person, does it?
A: It does give a particular set of circumstances. I am trying to tell you what I would expect to find. If some of those circumstances don't occur or were incorrect then my finding, are, as you say, not valid.
Q: Forgive me, I am probably being extremely stupid. Does it help at all? What I am suggesting to you is that it didn't help us at all in deciding whether the wounds were self-inflicted or not self-inflicted. The gun would have had to be in a particular angle to the body in order to deliver the wound in the direction it is in,in either case.
A: Yes.
What does this tell us?
Sheila does not have to have oil and firearm residue on her nightdress.
Fletcher was a halfwit.
Adam has not researched the case properly(shock).
The COA was unfairly prejudiced in what they put in their public summary.
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Lets deal with Adam's obsession with oil and firearm residue on Sheila's nightdress.
Fletcher made this claim that if Sheila's wounds were self inflicted he would have expected to have found
residue on Sheila's nightdress. It was then put to Fletcher that the fact the gun was held in that position regardless, his claim was meaningless and he conceded.
Mr M.D Fletcher Cross Examined
Q: You postulated Mr. Fletcher, didn't you, that if the wounds were self-inflicted, the wounds to Mrs. Caffell, you would have expected to find traces of oil and firearms discharge on the front of her nightdress?
A: I did qualify that by saying if the wounds were self-inflicted, using a rifle held close to the body.
Q: You obviously worked out the approximate angles of fire, as explored?
A: I had looked at some possible angles of fire yes.
Q: You had seen the X-rays.
A: I am sorry I misunderstood. I thought you meant the ways of holding the gun rather than the track of the bullet. I beg your pardon, I see now yes.
Q: I think you have seen the sketches that we have put forward, which are agreed, yes?
A: Yes I have.
Q: Number 1 on the sketch is the contact wound.
A: Yes sir.
Q: With the gun held pointing at that angle would you expect residue on the nightdress.
A: You could certainly position the head and gun so that it would be possible to get residue on the nightdress.
Q: The point is surely Mr. Fletcher that it doesn't make any difference whatsoever whether the wound is self-inflicted or inflicted by anybody else, if the gun is held at a particular angle you might get residue on the nightdress?
A: If held in the correct position certainly. Close to the body at the correct angle for the projection of the bullet in the head.
Q: Why is that correct?
A: To fulfil the requirements for the residue to get on to the nightdress.
Q: It doesn't help us to be certain whether they were self-inflicted or inflicted by another person, does it?
A: It does give a particular set of circumstances. I am trying to tell you what I would expect to find. If some of those circumstances don't occur or were incorrect then my finding, are, as you say, not valid.
Q: Forgive me, I am probably being extremely stupid. Does it help at all? What I am suggesting to you is that it didn't help us at all in deciding whether the wounds were self-inflicted or not self-inflicted. The gun would have had to be in a particular angle to the body in order to deliver the wound in the direction it is in,in either case.
A: Yes.
What does this tell us?
Sheila does not have to have oil and firearm residue on her nightdress.
Fletcher was a halfwit.
Adam has not researched the case properly(shock).
The COA was unfairly prejudiced in what they put in their public summary.
Not obsessed with anything. Just given you 68 sourced pieces of forensic evidence. Most not disputed by the CT. The circumstantial evidence is too much to list.
You won't accept an industrial frame so have to accept guilt. You were a hardcore guilter before then changed claiming you were never convinced by Bamber's guilt.
Lookout is going by her gut feeling from 1985 & will never go by the evidence.
You have to follow Caroline. Agree Bamber is guilty but that you believe the silencer was fabricated by the relatives using wet period blood.
Putting up things in bold won't change a 33 year old conviction.
Do you believe Sheila would have loaded the rifle while Nevill was asleep?
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Gut-feeling---because there was nil evidence it had been JB. Either forensic or DNA.
What was to stop Sheila from putting in a couple of bullets at a time instead of using a spring-loaded magazine which would have ripped her nails off ?
Afterall, loose bullets were found as well as an empty box upstairs that she'd have used to carry them in.
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Gut-feeling---because there was nil evidence it had been JB. Either forensic or DNA.
What was to stop Sheila from putting in a couple of bullets at a time instead of using a spring-loaded magazine which would have ripped her nails off ?
Afterall, loose bullets were found as well as an empty box upstairs that she'd have used to carry them in.
Loose bullets weren't found upstairs.
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Loose bullets weren't found upstairs.
No---empty box which contained them was.
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No---empty box which contained them was.
Not sure where you got that from Lookout, but there is no evidence to substantiate it. Both bullets and the box were downstairs next to the phone.
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Not sure where you got that from Lookout, but there is no evidence to substantiate it. Both bullets and the box were downstairs next to the phone.
Either CC or AE mentioned the empty box in the bedroom.
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Either CC or AE mentioned the empty box in the bedroom.
You have mentioned it before but there is no evidence of such a box.
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You have mentioned it before but there is no evidence of such a box.
Page 35 of CC's book.
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Page 35 of CC's book.
A bullet on June's pillow?
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A bullet on June's pillow?
Nope ! Try reading what you don't want to see/read !
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Page 35 of CC's book.
Which I happen to have to hand:
Bambs was lying on the floor next to the bed; the rifle lay on her chest with an empty ten-round ammunition case nearby; her mother's Bible, heavily bloodstained, was on the floor almost next to her. She had two wounds to the neck. A bullet was also found in June's pillow.
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Which I happen to have to hand:
Bambs was lying on the floor next to the bed; the rifle lay on her chest with an empty ten-round ammunition case nearby; her mother's Bible, heavily bloodstained, was on the floor almost next to her. She had two wounds to the neck. A bullet was also found in June's pillow.
That's exactly what I read, Steve.
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Which I happen to have to hand:
Bambs was lying on the floor next to the bed; the rifle lay on her chest with an empty ten-round ammunition case nearby; her mother's Bible, heavily bloodstained, was on the floor almost next to her. She had two wounds to the neck. A bullet was also found in June's pillow.
That can't be the whole page ?
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That can't be the whole page ?
It's all in italics as if Colin is quoting from witnesses at trial, which he was:
Upstairs in the bedroom occupied by the twins, both boys were found tucked up in their beds apparently asleep, one of them still having his thumb in his mouth. There were no signs of a struggle. Nicholas had three shots to the back of his head and Daniel had been shot five times, also in the back of his head. In the main bedroom, June was found on the floor behind the door. She had been shot several times, including one shot between her eyes and into her brain; blood had run down her legs and onto the carpet, as if she had walked around the bed and across the room before the final fatal shot. Like her husband, she had been beaten as well as shot.
Bambs was lying on the floor next to the bed; the rifle lay on her chest with an empty, ten-round ammunition case nearby: her mother's Bible, heavily bloodstained, was on the floor almost next to her. She had two wounds to the neck. A bullet was also found in June's pillow.
Outside the house, after the discovery of the bodies, Jeremy had appeared unwilling to accept what had happened. The police surgeon, Dr Ian Craig, who certified the deaths, had found him sitting in the back of a patrol car "in a state of shock". Dr Craig suggested that they go for a walk, at which point Jeremy asked him, "Why can't my father come too?" After telling him that his father was dead, Jeremy broke down and the doctor gave him a drop of whisky. Jeremy had then wandered off into a field from where he was heard retching. He had also told Dr Craig that the previous evening his parents had been discussing the future of the twins with his sister and had suggested to her that they should be fostered. Jeremy had also alleged that Sheila had physically abused her children.
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It states that " Bambs was lying on the floor next to the bed: the rifle lay on her chest with an empty 10 round ammunition case nearby ". Page 35.
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Plus there was a stray bullet in the bedroom which would have meant that Sheila was loading them singularly and not the full amount that a magazine would hold.
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Is an ammunition case the same as a magazine ?
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Plus there was a stray bullet in the bedroom which would have meant that Sheila was loading them singularly and not the full amount that a magazine would hold.
What about the bullets on the blue and white chequered worktop, and how did she scamper up and downstairs in her condition to pump enough lead into Nevill to disable both parents?
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What about the bullets on the blue and white chequered worktop, and how did she scamper up and downstairs in her condition to pump enough lead into Nevill to disable both parents?
" In her condition ?" Steve she wasn't pregnant, she was a tall wiry girl who probably skipped up and down the stairs like a two year old on speed. Instead of risking her nails being broken she'd have put a few bullets in the magazine rather than the full quota and carried so many loose ones upstairs. Sadly her father would have been taken out first because of his state of RM.A lot of the shootings were overkill.
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June would already have been rendered disabled after being shot in bed. Neither parents were youngsters.
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It's not difficult to mass kill when there are MH issues involved.
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" In her condition ?" Steve she wasn't pregnant, she was a tall wiry girl who probably skipped up and down the stairs like a two year old on speed. Instead of risking her nails being broken she'd have put a few bullets in the magazine rather than the full quota and carried so many loose ones upstairs. Sadly her father would have been taken out first because of his state of RM.A lot of the shootings were overkill.
From The Murders At White House Farm Chapter 15:
Painting the exterior walls at Vaulty that afternoon, Michael Horsnell noticed that all wasn't well. At quarter past three he recognized June's silver Renault as it turned in at the drive. He watched June, Sheila and the twins head into the garden: "Mrs. Bamber was playing with the two boys, jumping over small hedges and running up and down the garden. Sheila was with them, but she was like a zombie. She walked very rigidly, and the only part of her that moved was from the knees down. She didn't even turn her head from left to right. I did not hear Sheila speak at all. They went into the house."
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It's not difficult to mass kill when there are MH issues involved.
It's not difficult to mass kill when you know how to use and shoot semi-automatic weapon, you have no empathy and you want your inheritance early!
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" In her condition ?" Steve she wasn't pregnant, she was a tall wiry girl who probably skipped up and down the stairs like a two year old on speed. Instead of risking her nails being broken she'd have put a few bullets in the magazine rather than the full quota and carried so many loose ones upstairs. Sadly her father would have been taken out first because of his state of RM.A lot of the shootings were overkill.
They were made to look that way.
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From The Murders At White House Farm Chapter 15:
Painting the exterior walls at Vaulty that afternoon, Michael Horsnell noticed that all wasn't well. At quarter past three he recognized June's silver Renault as it turned in at the drive. He watched June, Sheila and the twins head into the garden: "Mrs. Bamber was playing with the two boys, jumping over small hedges and running up and down the garden. Sheila was with them, but she was like a zombie. She walked very rigidly, and the only part of her that moved was from the knees down. She didn't even turn her head from left to right. I did not hear Sheila speak at all. They went into the house."
I can fully understand Sheila's state at that time which was a few hours before the tragedy but nevertheless warning signs from someone who was about to change the lives of everyone in a split second.
The moods of anyone in such a state are a fore-runner of how their minds are going to react depending on how the rest of the time pans out. It wasn't a pleasant evening over dinner by all accounts and as the psychiatrist had already said that when a certain point in the conversation had been mentioned would have " tipped her over the edge ". The fostering subject as well as Colin's suggestion of 100% care of the twins.
Any mother, I don't care who it is would see red, be upset and display disapproval but because Sheila had been in no state for such a conversation her irrationality took over.
In a way similar to when JM put the pillow over JB's face, but it was the words that she'd said which rang familiar " if I can't have you nobody else will ", which would have been in Sheila's thoughts at that time of the murders.
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From The Murders At White House Farm Chapter 15:
Painting the exterior walls at Vaulty that afternoon, Michael Horsnell noticed that all wasn't well. At quarter past three he recognized June's silver Renault as it turned in at the drive. He watched June, Sheila and the twins head into the garden: "Mrs. Bamber was playing with the two boys, jumping over small hedges and running up and down the garden. Sheila was with them, but she was like a zombie. She walked very rigidly, and the only part of her that moved was from the knees down. She didn't even turn her head from left to right. I did not hear Sheila speak at all. They went into the house."
Was this on the massacre evening?
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I can fully understand Sheila's state at that time which was a few hours before the tragedy but nevertheless warning signs from someone who was about to change the lives of everyone in a split second.
The moods of anyone in such a state are a fore-runner of how their minds are going to react depending on how the rest of the time pans out. It wasn't a pleasant evening over dinner by all accounts and as the psychiatrist had already said that when a certain point in the conversation had been mentioned would have " tipped her over the edge ". The fostering subject as well as Colin's suggestion of 100% care of the twins.
Any mother, I don't care who it is would see red, be upset and display disapproval but because Sheila had been in no state for such a conversation her irrationality took over.
In a way similar to when JM put the pillow over JB's face, but it was the words that she'd said which rang familiar " if I can't have you nobody else will ", which would have been in Sheila's thoughts at that time of the murders.
Unfortunately, "all accounts" amount to only Jeremy's version of them. For those who remain certain of innocence, such will be enough. Those who believe him guilty will be more skeptical. Julie tells us what she was thinking when she placed a pillow over Jeremy's face so her words can't be disputed. We have no proof that Sheila held a gun in her hands and we can't possibly know what, if anything, was going on in her head.
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It's not difficult to mass kill when you know how to use and shoot semi-automatic weapon, you have no empathy and you want your inheritance early!
I'm sure that if JB was thinking on the lines of inheritance that his granny wasn't long for this earth as was proved a year later and nothing was that desperate that he couldn't wait.. He wasn't in any hurry, if anyone was, it had been Sheila with her £40,000 debt which I noticed had been noted in the run-up to the ITV drama. True or false ? We'll see.
Did Jeremy have any imminent money worries ? I haven't heard.
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Sadly we see too many suicides through owing money either a gambling debt or a drug/alcohol problem---too many and they can't see any other way out. No, they don't all kill others, some have but those who do have other pressing problems that invariably involve family matters.
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I'm sure that if JB was thinking on the lines of inheritance that his granny wasn't long for this earth as was proved a year later and nothing was that desperate that he couldn't wait.. He wasn't in any hurry, if anyone was, it had been Sheila with her £40,000 debt which I noticed had been noted in the run-up to the ITV drama. True or false ? We'll see.
Did Jeremy have any imminent money worries ? I haven't heard.
!. June would have inherited from her mothers death, with June out of the way, he'd have gotten granny's money as well.
2, no evidence whatsoever of any debt associated with Sheila
3. why would he need money worries to want to inherit? He didn't want the cash to pay bills, he wanted it to enhance his life!
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Was this on the massacre evening?
It was around 3:15pm
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Sadly we see too many suicides through owing money either a gambling debt or a drug/alcohol problem---too many and they can't see any other way out. No, they don't all kill others, some have but those who do have other pressing problems that invariably involve family matters.
And some people just have no empathy for others so killing them for inheritance isn't a problem.
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I'm sure that if JB was thinking on the lines of inheritance that his granny wasn't long for this earth as was proved a year later and nothing was that desperate that he couldn't wait.. He wasn't in any hurry, if anyone was, it had been Sheila with her £40,000 debt which I noticed had been noted in the run-up to the ITV drama. True or false ? We'll see.
Did Jeremy have any imminent money worries ? I haven't heard.
You're correct. Jeremy had NO imminent money worries -rent-free house, utilities paid for(?), car, petrol allowance- but it was dependent on him staying exactly where he was. It didn't allow his freedom or entry into the world of ANYWHERE other than the farm and certainly precluded his entry into the world of big spenders. It was as much about breaking free as anything else and half a million without parental advice would give him that. Whilst you believe he was content being on the farm, I believe he was anything BUT.
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It was around 3:15pm
A few hours before the massacre?
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A few hours before the massacre?
Just before(?) the trip into Tiptree when Sheila was seen to be unkempt and 'disinterested' in the shop where June bought things for the boys.
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Was this on the massacre evening?
Yes Adam.
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Just before(?) the trip into Tiptree when Sheila was seen to be unkempt and 'disinterested' in the shop where June bought things for the boys.
Five miles away in Tiptree, Barry Parker ganced up as June and Sheila entered his clothes shop on Church Road. The twins followed their mother, who looked fashionable in tight black pedal pushers and black pumps. The group congregated at the jeans rail. Nicholas and Daniel chose a pair and went into the changing rooms.
"What do you think?" June asked, turning to Sheila as the boys came out to show them.
"I like them," Sheila said quietly.
When Parker told them the price, June exclaimed, "We only want cheap ones for wear on the farm!" But they settled on the more expensive pair; the twins put £5 each towards the cost and June paid the rest. Parker was curious about Sheila, who spoke just twice during their half hour in the shop. She seemed "vague and distant", she wasn't interested in the children and she struck me as a very strange woman.". As they left, he called out goodbye to see how she would react. He recoiled when Sheila turned and smiled, her red lipstick "smudged all over her teeth".
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!. June would have inherited from her mothers death, with June out of the way, he'd have gotten granny's money as well.
2, no evidence whatsoever of any debt associated with Sheila
3. why would he need money worries to want to inherit? He didn't want the cash to pay bills, he wanted it to enhance his life!
Jeremy was intelligent ( not clever ) and if it ever entered his head to do anything foolish anyway, he'd have known right away that if he had, there'd be no inheritance at all.
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Yes Adam.
Obviously this means Sheila could not have committed the massacre. But would have been easy for Bamber to control.
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Jeremy was intelligent ( not clever ) and if it ever entered his head to do anything foolish anyway, he'd have known right away that if he had, there'd be no inheritance at all.
But the point was that he didn't want to share his inheritance with Sheila. The twins were also approaching the age when he himself had been packed off to boarding school, which would eat into his inheritance, not to mention the recent private hospital stay, the bills for which were lying atop Nevill's desk in his den.
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Five miles away in Tiptree, Barry Parker ganced up as June and Sheila entered his clothes shop on Church Road. The twins followed their mother, who looked fashionable in tight black pedal pushers and black pumps. The group congregated at the jeans rail. Nicholas and Daniel chose a pair and went into the changing rooms.
"What do you think?" June asked, turning to Sheila as the boys came out to show them.
"I like them," Sheila said quietly.
When Parker told them the price, June exclaimed, "We only want cheap ones for wear on the farm!" But they settled on the more expensive pair; the twins put £5 each towards the cost and June paid the rest. Parker was curious about Sheila, who spoke just twice during their half hour in the shop. She seemed "vague and distant", she wasn't interested in the children and she struck me as a very strange woman.". As they left, he called out goodbye to see how she would react. He recoiled when Sheila turned and smiled, her red lipstick "smudged all over her teeth".
Those black pumps were removed from the property never to be seen again !
Sheila's reaction is one I'd seen before, who'd lived close to me as a matter of fact and someone I've mentioned on the forum in the past, so I know how they function or don't as regards moods etc. It's usually because they don't have a proper sleep pattern and tend to be wide awake most nights and dopey in the daytime.
Sheila used to ring her father at all hours of the night/morning obviously because she couldn't sleep so Nevill would have felt drained at times at having to get up early to see to the farm as well. June wouldn't have been very pleased about it either.
So Sheila would have come alive at night at WHF the same as when she'd been at home though I suspect that the various clubs kept her going there and helped pass the night.
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Jeremy was intelligent ( not clever ) and if it ever entered his head to do anything foolish anyway, he'd have known right away that if he had, there'd be no inheritance at all.
Those who commit murder -or plan to- don't for one moment think they won't get away with it. They work on a plan which they believe is smart enough to outwit suspicion falling on them. The lure of money is greater than the fear of getting caught.
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Those black pumps were removed from the property never to be seen again !
Sheila's reaction is one I'd seen before, who'd lived close to me as a matter of fact and someone I've mentioned on the forum in the past, so I know how they function or don't as regards moods etc. It's usually because they don't have a proper sleep pattern and tend to be wide awake most nights and dopey in the daytime.
Sheila used to ring her father at all hours of the night/morning obviously because she couldn't sleep so Nevill would have felt drained at times at having to get up early to see to the farm as well. June wouldn't have been very pleased about it either.
So Sheila would have come alive at night at WHF the same as when she'd been at home though I suspect that the various clubs kept her going there and helped pass the night.
I don't think Sheila did have much of a social life those last few years, going off the Clare Powell book. She was unkempt, she often forgot to wash herself even though she may have been on the lookout for a rich partner, though ironically it was Colin who was her greatest support during this period of her life.
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Those black pumps were removed from the property never to be seen again !
Sheila's reaction is one I'd seen before, who'd lived close to me as a matter of fact and someone I've mentioned on the forum in the past, so I know how they function or don't as regards moods etc. It's usually because they don't have a proper sleep pattern and tend to be wide awake most nights and dopey in the daytime.
Sheila used to ring her father at all hours of the night/morning obviously because she couldn't sleep so Nevill would have felt drained at times at having to get up early to see to the farm as well. June wouldn't have been very pleased about it either.
So Sheila would have come alive at night at WHF the same as when she'd been at home though I suspect that the various clubs kept her going there and helped pass the night.
Possibly so -and I have no doubt that you believe you've met Sheila's 'type' before, therefore know how "they" all function- but as you've plucked that fact out of the ether we have NO idea of when it was. I COULD have been prior to he first breakdown. It COULD have been when she was first alone with the twins after Colin left. It could have been ANY time but there's no evidence of it being recent and just prior to the murders, ie neither June nor Nevill is said to have reported her sleeplessness and I'd have thought the housekeeper would have been one of the first to know. Therefore, just as we can't assume to know how their last conversation went, nor can we assume that Sheila wasn't sleeping, we certainly can't assume that she clubbed as frequently as it's being implied.
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Those black pumps were removed from the property never to be seen again !
Sheila's reaction is one I'd seen before, who'd lived close to me as a matter of fact and someone I've mentioned on the forum in the past, so I know how they function or don't as regards moods etc. It's usually because they don't have a proper sleep pattern and tend to be wide awake most nights and dopey in the daytime.
Sheila used to ring her father at all hours of the night/morning obviously because she couldn't sleep so Nevill would have felt drained at times at having to get up early to see to the farm as well. June wouldn't have been very pleased about it either.
So Sheila would have come alive at night at WHF the same as when she'd been at home though I suspect that the various clubs kept her going there and helped pass the night.
How do you know what Sheila did?
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Those who commit murder -or plan to- don't for one moment think they won't get away with it. They work on a plan which they believe is smart enough to outwit suspicion falling on them. The lure of money is greater than the fear of getting caught.
A lot of clever people haven't been caught----such as those who flee the country. They're the ones who fear being caught not those who are easily accessible such as sitting ducks like JB was in his innocence.
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How do you know what Sheila did?
Pretty much the same as you know she didn't.
PS had to cut short my posting last night because I was out.
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But the point was that he didn't want to share his inheritance with Sheila. The twins were also approaching the age when he himself had been packed off to boarding school, which would eat into his inheritance, not to mention the recent private hospital stay, the bills for which were lying atop Nevill's desk in his den.
Lookout has a right to support Jeremy. Obviously her reason of 'a gut feeling' in 1985 could not have been used at trial or the appeals.
A future CCRC application will be based on evidence. However I believe the 2012 CCRC dismissal was the end of the line.
There was a 10 year gap between the last two CCRC applications. There is virtually no chance there will be new evidence strong enough to submit a new application.
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Lookout has a right to support Jeremy. Obviously her reason of 'a gut feeling' in 1985 could not have been used at trial or the appeals.
A future CCRC application will be based on evidence. However I believe the 2012 CCRC dismissal was the end of the line.
There was a 10 year gap between the last two CCRC applications. There is virtually no chance there will be new evidence strong enough to submit a new application.
I guess we must be thankful that the verdict didn't rely upon such 'evidence' as witnesses knowing someone who had the same problem as Sheila and maintaining they knew what Sheila was thinking, OR a witness who believed he must be innocent because he was adopted and adopted children would be too grateful to murder the family who adopted them.
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I guess we must be thankful that the verdict didn't rely upon such 'evidence' as witnesses knowing someone who had the same problem as Sheila and maintaining they knew what Sheila was thinking, OR a witness who believed he must be innocent because he was adopted and adopted children would be too grateful to murder the family who adopted them.
Gut feelings could be wrong, or people can change them.
Lookout's kept her gut feeling since 1985 & supports the industrial frame. She has kept a lower profile than Mike which Jeremy will appreciate.
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Bamber was convicted in 1986.
His first appellate hearing was 1988, the second was 1989.
There was an inquiry into the original investigation completed by the Essex Police by the City of London Police in 1991. A judicial review of the Home Office resulted in expert evidence being disclosed to the defence in 1994.
The Criminal Cases Review Commission referred the case back to the Court of Appeal in 2001, there was a two week hearing in 2002.
A further CCRC application was made in 2004, another in 2009 and finally in 2012.
The refusal of the CCRC to refer the matter to the Court of Appeal in 2012 was subject to a judicial review which was heard in the High Court.
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The 2012 CCRC dismissal brought to a conclusion the legal systems longest running case according to several articles.
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I guess we must be thankful that the verdict didn't rely upon such 'evidence' as witnesses knowing someone who had the same problem as Sheila and maintaining they knew what Sheila was thinking, OR a witness who believed he must be innocent because he was adopted and adopted children would be too grateful to murder the family who adopted them.
Not forgetting that Stan Jones also had a " gut-feeling that he was guilty and from that, he led the way !!
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Not forgetting that Stan Jones also had a " gut-feeling that he was guilty and from that, he led the way !!
Excdpt he was coming from an informed position.
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Excdpt he was coming from an informed position.
Such as ? He was no top brass material.
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Such as ? He was no top brass material.
He was a experienced police officer whereas you weren’t.
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Not forgetting that Stan Jones also had a " gut-feeling that he was guilty and from that, he led the way !!
Gut feelings fall into either one of two camps, ie, guilty or innocent. Whatever lays behind the gut feeling, only one is going to be right. My friend's late husband's gut feeling, as a police officer of many years standing, was that Jeremy was guilty, but, as with all gut feelings,he COULD have been wrong.
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Such as ? He was no top brass material.
Neither are you (we) but you (we) still have gut feelings.
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Neither are you (we) but you (we) still have gut feelings.
I didn’t have a ‘gut feeling’ in 1985 and have changed my initial opinion on the case after reading about it and discussing it with others and Bamber himself. No gut feeling here - only after a dodgy curry!! ;D
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He was a experienced police officer whereas you weren’t.
There have been too many " experienced police officers " who've made too many mistakes in the past. Not good enough is it ? There would have been hundreds hanged if it was still in force.
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For the handful who were sadly, wrongly hanged there certainly have been many more which have been MOJ's over the years for all the technology etc.
There shouldn't be such things as MOJ's if investigations were carried out properly and appropriately.
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There have been too many " experienced police officers " who've made too many mistakes in the past. Not good enough is it ? There would have been hundreds hanged if it was still in force.
Bit ironic, that, for someone who believes in the death penalty. Yes, SOME mistakes have been made. Probably more in the past than now. It's as "not good enough" now as it was then, however, if it's perfection you're looking for, you'll have to wait and see what you find in the next world because you'll certainly not find it in this one.
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There have been too many " experienced police officers " who've made too many mistakes in the past. Not good enough is it ? There would have been hundreds hanged if it was still in force.
You believe in the death penalty! And who are the hundreds?
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For the handful who were sadly, wrongly hanged there certainly have been many more which have been MOJ's over the years for all the technology etc.
There shouldn't be such things as MOJ's if investigations were carried out properly and appropriately.
That's a very sweeping statement, based, I believe, in the desire for perfection. Whilst we live in a world in which people lie, cheat, defraud, embezzle, abuse, rape and murder, we're unlikely to find it.
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That's a very sweeping statement, based, I believe, in the desire for perfection. Whilst we live in a world in which people lie, cheat, defraud, embezzle, abuse, rape and murder, we're unlikely to find it.
Also, genuine MOJ are few and far between.
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Bit ironic, that, for someone who believes in the death penalty. Yes, SOME mistakes have been made. Probably more in the past than now. It's as "not good enough" now as it was then, however, if it's perfection you're looking for, you'll have to wait and see what you find in the next world because you'll certainly not find it in this one.
No, not ironic as I still believe in the death penalty as a successful deterrent to those who commit murder.
Surgeons have to be perfectionists in their profession so why not the police ? People's lives still matter.
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You believe in the death penalty! And who are the hundreds?
Those filling the prisons in this country.
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That's a very sweeping statement, based, I believe, in the desire for perfection. Whilst we live in a world in which people lie, cheat, defraud, embezzle, abuse, rape and murder, we're unlikely to find it.
Not so much perfection as damn common sense !
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Not so much perfection as damn common sense !
Are you setting yourself up as having more than the police?
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You've only to look at the case involving the Met when they were all taken in by Carl Beech. :o
Who couldn't have seen through a scumbag like that ? Answer= the top brass from the Met !! ::)
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You've only to look at the case involving the Met when they were all taken in by Carl Beech. :o
Who couldn't have seen through a scumbag like that ? Answer= the top brass from the Met !! ::)
I fear that may have had rather more to do with how we've evolved, as a society, than failings on behalf of the police. Child abuse is rife. No one doubts it. They've become more so following the horror which was Jimmy Saville. WE have the luxury of being able to refer to people, who 'make' on the back of such, as scumbags but whatever the police may have thought of him (Beech) privately, there were protocols to follow and be SEEN to be followed. The irony is that possibly THEIR gut feeling might have told them such was the case but without something to back it up, gut feelings are worth nothing.
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Are you setting yourself up as having more than the police?
In some cases, yes.
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No, not ironic as I still believe in the death penalty as a successful deterrent to those who commit murder.
Surgeons have to be perfectionists in their profession so why not the police ? People's lives still matter.
And no one dies on the operating table?
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You've only to look at the case involving the Met when they were all taken in by Carl Beech. :o
Who couldn't have seen through a scumbag like that ? Answer= the top brass from the Met !! ::)
Oh the wonder of hindsight!
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No, not ironic as I still believe in the death penalty as a successful deterrent to those who commit murder.
Surgeons have to be perfectionists in their profession so why not the police ? People's lives still matter.
If it was a successful deterrent, in places where it is enforced, there should be no murders then?
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I fear that may have had rather more to do with how we've evolved, as a society, than failings on behalf of the police. Child abuse is rife. No one doubts it. They've become more so following the horror which was Jimmy Saville. WE have the luxury of being able to refer to people, who 'make' on the back of such, as scumbags but whatever the police may have thought of him (Beech) privately, there were protocols to follow and be SEEN to be followed. The irony is that possibly THEIR gut feeling might have told them such was the case but without something to back it up, gut feelings are worth nothing.
" How we've evolved as a society ", nothing. It's a matter for the police not society. It's not our job to go after criminals. It's society's job to hope that police do their job efficiently.
My " gut-feeling " would have been a heck of a lot different to theirs I can tell you.
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In some cases, yes.
That sort of arrogance in the hands of the amateur can be dangerous in the extreme.
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" How we've evolved as a society ", nothing. It's a matter for the police not society. It's not our job to go after criminals. It's society's job to hope that police do their job efficiently.
My " gut-feeling " would have been a heck of a lot different to theirs I can tell you.
Oh right! So it's the fault of the police that they, teachers and parents can no longer reprimand, is it. THEY don't make the rules, lookout, they can only follow those that others make.
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Interestingly my daughter works with " older " cops and by all accounts I'm on the same wave-length as they are with thoughts on certain subjects of law being very similar. One's a dog-handler.
On the other side of the coin is a much younger officer who's ready to arrest anyone without a second thought. He'll never learn ! Over zealousness is never good.
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Also, genuine MOJ are few and far between.
Genuine or not there must be about 700 waiting to be assessed, so what's happened that it's arrived at this state ?
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Genuine or not there must be about 700 waiting to be assessed, so what's happened that it's arrived at this state ?
Not sure where you got that figure but if people won't admit to being guilty when they are, then it's their fault the system is clogged!
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For the handful who were sadly, wrongly hanged there certainly have been many more which have been MOJ's over the years for all the technology etc.
There shouldn't be such things as MOJ's if investigations were carried out properly and appropriately.
I’m not sure you have a realistic understanding of why miscarriages of justice occur. There are many potential reasons, often depending on the complexity of the case material and complexity of the evidence involved. Carrying out investigations ‘properly and appropriately’ is only a very small part. Trial by jury is an adversarial process. The case may have been investigated 100% ‘properly and appropriately,’ but a poor performance by counsel, poor performance under cross examination from defendants, poor evidence by witnesses....... and quite easily verdicts can be reached which lead to claims that they are a miscarriage of justice.
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A worrying statistic is of all the cases which are brought to the CCRC, 40% of these are erroneously brought and are struck out immediately. This is one factor in why so much time is taken up with time wasted on these cases.
Equally, the CCRC have a budget of only £5 million per year. Most commissioners only work 1 (ONE) day per week. Is it any wonder that cases take so long to process.
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I’m not sure you have a realistic understanding of why miscarriages of justice occur. There are many potential reasons, often depending on the complexity of the case material and complexity of the evidence involved. Carrying out investigations ‘properly and appropriately’ is only a very small part. Trial by jury is an adversarial process. The case may have been investigated 100% ‘properly and appropriately,’ but a poor performance by counsel, poor performance under cross examination from defendants, poor evidence by witnesses....... and quite easily verdicts can be reached which lead to claims that they are a miscarriage of justice.
Hi Petey, apparently, all you need to a 'gut feeling' ;)
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Interestingly my daughter works with " older " cops and by all accounts I'm on the same wave-length as they are with thoughts on certain subjects of law being very similar. One's a dog-handler.
On the other side of the coin is a much younger officer who's ready to arrest anyone without a second thought. He'll never learn ! Over zealousness is never good.
Yes, I imagine it would be. The training received by older policemen -interestingly, it was probably they who formed the body of the groundwork investigation at WHF. Certainly my friend's late husband would have been of their number and he'd have been 79 this year- would be vastly different from the training received by today's recruits. I can't help but feel the "arrest first, ask questions later" school of thought might be about self preservation. It must be quite difficult to know who's just a tearaway and who's a potential terrorist. Either way, they're likely to be armed.
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A worrying statistic is of all the cases which are brought to the CCRC, 40% of these are erroneously brought and are struck out immediately. This is one factor in why so much time is taken up with time wasted on these cases.
Equally, the CCRC have a budget of only £5 million per year. Most commissioners only work 1 (ONE) day per week. Is it any wonder that cases take so long to process.
Exactly, Bamber has had his fair share of submissions - which of course he is entitled to. However, if recent submissions include the guff about the phone bass (as recently posted), that will be yet another one cluttering up the pile!
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I attended the United against Injustice conference in Liverpool on Saturday, where it was fascinating listening to supporters of potential miscarriage of justice cases, including jb, as well as a presentation from the CCRC.
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I would have gone to that conference as it's only across the water from me but I had a celebration to attend. I wanted to see how Barry George got on with his speech.
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I spoke briefly with Barry George and his sister also spoke. He came across reasonably engaging
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Oh, very good.
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One of the hardest cases to hear was a man who erroneously served 19 years for murder before his conviction was overturned and he was freed immediately. When he received compensation for his wrongful conviction, £75,000 was then deducted for ‘board and lodging’ for his time spent in prison. (Sadly this is not a joke)
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One of the hardest cases to hear was a man who erroneously served 19 years for murder before his conviction was overturned and he was freed immediately. When he received compensation for his wrongful conviction, £75,000 was then deducted for ‘board and lodging’ for his time spent in prison. (Sadly this is not a joke)
OMG. When it comes to black humour, that has to top the list. Is there nothing he can do? Shouldn't that particular bill be paid by those who put him there? But then who is ultimately responsible for that? You've already listed a few.
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One of the hardest cases to hear was a man who erroneously served 19 years for murder before his conviction was overturned and he was freed immediately. When he received compensation for his wrongful conviction, £75,000 was then deducted for ‘board and lodging’ for his time spent in prison. (Sadly this is not a joke)
That's disgraceful and in need of protest!
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One of the hardest cases to hear was a man who erroneously served 19 years for murder before his conviction was overturned and he was freed immediately. When he received compensation for his wrongful conviction, £75,000 was then deducted for ‘board and lodging’ for his time spent in prison. (Sadly this is not a joke)
That is shocking. After 19 years getting back to a normal life will be difficult without feeling like you have been kicked in the teeth by the system again .