Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: mike tesko on April 17, 2018, 04:35:PM
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At around 5.25am, the firearms team were engaged in a conversation with a person from inside the farmhouse!
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Despite almost 33 years having elapsed since the time of the event, Essex police have doggedly remained 'mute' on what was said by one party or the other...
But, it can be revealed that the reason why no transcript of these conversations has ever been forthcoming, is because of the rather unusual circumstances involved!
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No-one has questioned why there are no timed messages in any police log, or witness statement, where what police were saying via a loud hailer to the occupants inside the farmhouse, and the actual responses they got!
Instead, all the police say is that challenges to the occupants of the farmhouse were met with 'no response'..
But,that was not true, since all the challenges that the firearm team were making to the occupants of the house were met with either a single bark, or a howl, or a whine, or two!
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No-one has questioned why there are no timed messages in any police log, or witness statement, where what police were saying via a loud hailer to the occupants inside the farmhouse, and the actual responses they got!
Instead, all the police say is that challenges to the occupants of the farmhouse were met with 'no response'..
But,that was not true, since all the challenges that the firearm team were making to the occupants of the house were met with either a single bark, or a howl, or a whine, or two!
It is impossible to have a conversation with a person from inside the farmhouse, if that person does not correspond!
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At 5.25am, precisely, the firearms team were 'ENGAGED IN A CONVERSATION' with a person from inside the farmhouse - so, there must have been some response or other..
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At 5.25am, precisely, the firearms team were 'ENGAGED IN A CONVERSATION' with a person from inside the farmhouse - so, there must have been some response or other..
Why is it, that cops don't say what the conversation they were having with this person from inside the farmhouse was about?
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It seems to me, that a number of critical events took place around the time that the firearms officers were engaged in a conversation with this person inside the farmhouse, occurred...
5.25am - conversation with a person inside farmhouse
5.55am - phone line suddenly became engaged, whereas previously it had been off the hook
6.09am - Operator patches the phone line through to police control room using 999 system
6.15am - ambulances summoned to the scene to tend to the wounded and dying
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It seems to me, that a number of critical events took place around the time that the firearms officers were engaged in a conversation with this person inside the farmhouse, occurred...
5.25am - conversation with a person inside farmhouse
5.55am - phone line suddenly became engaged, whereas previously it had been off the hook
6.09am - Operator patches the phone line through to police control room using 999 system
6.15am - ambulances summoned to the scene to tend to the wounded and dying
Has no-one ever wondered, who contacted the emergency services requesting that two ambulances be summoned to the scene? Who called them out? What were they told?
All this evidence is 'missing'...
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Has no-one ever wondered, who contacted the emergency services requesting that two ambulances be summoned to the scene? Who called them out? What were they told?
All this evidence is 'missing'...
All we know, because the powers that be don't think we should know, is that two ambulances arrived at the scene by 7.00am..
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Now..
We also know that despite the plan to be was that one of the ambulances was to go directly to the farmhouse, whilst the other remained on standby in nearby Pages Lane - who decided that one of the two ambulances had to go straight to the farmhouse? Where was this information obtained from?
Seems somewhat obvious that this information must have been agreed to, by somebody who was still alive inside the farmhouse, whilst others were wounded, or even dying, or dead!
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Now..
We also know that despite the plan to be was that one of the ambulances was to go directly to the farmhouse, whilst the other remained on standby in nearby Pages Lane - who decided that one of the two ambulances had to go straight to the farmhouse? Where was this information obtained from?
Seems somewhat obvious that this information must have been agreed to, by somebody who was still alive inside the farmhouse, whilst others were wounded, or even dying, or dead!
Yet, still further..
Something happens, which prevents the designated ambulance from going directly to the farmhouse...
What could that something have been?
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Well, what Essex police do not what everyone to know, was that the firearms officers were communicating with a person inside the farmhouse, who they believed to be Sheila, by giving her instructions, and making requests to her via the loud hailer, and the Sound of a dog barking, or howling, or at times whining came back from within the farmhouse in response! It didn't take the firearm officers long, to relealise that it was not the dog from within the house that kept barking, but that rather it was Sheila Mimicking a dog!
Now, I have it on good authority, that at an early stage (around 5.25am) that the firearms team had already established a coded response from Sheila inside the farmhouse, where they suggested to her, that in answer to their requests and questions, that she should bark like a dog once for 'YES', or bark twice for 'NO'. Sheila responded positively to this request, hence why at 5.25am it is documented that the firearms team were engaged in a conversation with a person from inside the farmhouse! It wasn't a conversation like two people ordinarily would have, simply requests put to Sheila via the loud hailer, and Sheila either, barking, or howling, or whining like a dog, once or twice..
This is why Essex police refuse to provide a full transcript of the requests they were making to Sheila via the loudhailer, because the contents of such a transcript emphatically prove that Sheila was still alive inside the farmhouse after 5.25am, and that she was the reason why the firearms team were prevented from going in any sooner than they did at about 7.30am.
As far as is known 'Crispy' the family pet, was incapable of understanding any instructions given by the firearm team via the loud hailer!
The instructions and requests passed by the firearm team to the person they were engaged in a conversation with from inside the farmhouse, were structured, directional and simple, so simple were these requests and if you like demands, that Sheila was able to respond by barking, or howling, or whining, once or twice!
The responses were noted down by the firearms team at the scene!
Sight of this transcript would leave everybody in no doubt that the firearms officers were engaged in a conversation with a person from inside the farmhouse, not talking to the family dog (Crispy)..
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Well, what Essex police do not what everyone to know, was that the firearms officers were communicating with a person inside the farmhouse, who they believed to be Sheila, by giving her instructions, and making requests to her via the loud hailer, and the Sound of a dog barking, or howling, or at times whining came back from within the farmhouse in response! It didn't take the firearm officers long, to relealise that it was not the dog from within the house that kept barking, but that rather it was Sheila Mimicking a dog!
Now, I have it on good authority, that at an early stage (around 5.25am) that the firearms team had already established a coded response from Sheila inside the farmhouse, where they suggested to her, that in answer to their requests and questions, that she should bark like a dog once for 'YES', or bark twice for 'NO'. Sheila responded positively to this request, hence why at 5.25am it is documented that the firearms team were engaged in a conversation with a person from inside the farmhouse! It wasn't a conversation like two people ordinarily would have, simply requests put to Sheila via the loud hailer, and Sheila either, barking, or howling, or whining like a dog, once or twice..
This is why Essex police refuse to provide a full transcript of the requests they were making to Sheila via the loudhailer, because the contents of such a transcript emphatically prove that Sheila was still alive inside the farmhouse after 5.25am, and that she was the reason why the firearms team were prevented from going in any sooner than they did at about 7.30am.
As far as is known 'Crispy' the family pet, was incapable of understanding any instructions given by the firearm team via the loud hailer!
The instructions and requests passed by the firearm team to the person they were engaged in a conversation with from inside the farmhouse, were structured, directional and simple, so simple were these requests and if you like demands, that Sheila was able to respond by barking, or howling, or whining, once or twice!
The responses were noted down by the firearms team at the scene!
Sight of this transcript would leave everybody in no doubt that the firearms officers were engaged in a conversation with a person from inside the farmhouse, not talking to the family dog (Crispy)..
GOD
DOG
GOD
DOG
GOD
Sheila believed that when God spoke, he must bark like a dog, or that if she barked like a dog that God would make the firearm officers understand her and no doubt she must have ammused herself knowing that the firearms officers, understood her intention and resolve, when she took on the voice of a dog..
DOG
GOD
DOG
GOD
DOG..
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OK I'm new to this and may be missing some nuances but this is a wind up? Right?
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OK I'm new to this and may be missing some nuances but this is a wind up? Right?
Cant comment on the veracity - but this thread is from 2012
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,3512.msg138815/topicseen.html#msg138815
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How can you tell that? I cant see a date anywhere? Not sure I understand how this all works.
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How can you tell that? I cant see a date anywhere? Not sure I understand how this all works.
Where are you looking for a date? Do you mean the thread from 2012 via the link I posted?
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Sorry, yes I see the link now. I still think it's a ludicrous suggestion and probably a wind up.
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Sorry, yes I see the link now. I still think it's a ludicrous suggestion and probably a wind up.
There are pages missing from Essex Constabulary scene and event logs (i.e. they have been re-written). Cant comment on the exact reason. However, Mrs Caffell may have been experiencing a psychotic episode during this incident.
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Yes I read the suggestion. I personally think that even the best mimicking human still sounds like a human rather than a dog though. Would need to hear a recording (if there was one) to judge the veracity of the sounds and 'responses.'
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Yes I read the suggestion. I personally think that even the best mimicking human still sounds like a human rather than a dog though. Would need to hear a recording (if there was one) to judge the veracity of the sounds and 'responses.'
Yes, if true, she would have sounded like a human mimicking a dog. The full audio tapes from the scene are never going to come to light. Copies were apparently made but will never see the light of day.
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Also any tape or transcript could prove whether there was any code of communication at work or just random noises.
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Any unusual noises would have been Sheila trying to hide/disguise her identity in some way. I know from experience that those who have these "episodes "have a remarkable aptitude for changing their voices/tones.
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Bearing in mind there was a real dog in the house, can anyone confirm what breed or type Crispy was?
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Bearing in mind there was a real dog in the house, can anyone confirm what breed or type Crispy was?
I believe Crispy was a Shih Tzu
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I believe Crispy was a Shih Tzu
Yes he was, he was also very old.
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Please be reassured that the police were 'communicating' with Sheila inside the farmhouse, via a truly remarkable example of them challenging her, initially trying to give her instructions on what she must do, to eventually altering their approach and making requests to her, which were all met with barking, howling and whining responses! Sheila was the person from inside the farmhouse who the firearms officers were engaged in a conversation (if you could call it that) with! 'Crispy' the shih Tzu was not responsible for the eerie noises that came from within the farmhouse in response to challenges made by police via the loud hailer, or later after 6.09am when the phone line which had become mysteriously engaged from 5.55am, onwards, was patched through to the control room at Chelmsford by the Operator using the '999' emergency system...
One bark, one howl, or one whine, or two of the same were the responses that came from within the house to the initial challenges of the firearms officers, and much later via the open line phone link!
Was there anyone hurt needing medical attention inside the farmhouse?
Response - one bark /howl / or a whine...
Had someone in the farmhouse been shot?
Response - one bark /howl / or a whine...
Is an ambulance required?
Response - one bark /howl / or a whine...
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Please be reassured that the police were 'communicating' with Sheila inside the farmhouse, via a truly remarkable example of them challenging her, initially trying to give her instructions on what she must do, to eventually altering their approach and making requests to her, which were all met with barking, howling and whining responses! Sheila was the person from inside the farmhouse who the firearms officers were engaged in a conversation (if you could call it that) with! 'Crispy' the shih Tzu was not responsible for the eerie noises that came from within the farmhouse in response to challenges made by police via the loud hailer, or later after 6.09am when the phone line which had become mysteriously engaged from 5.55am, onwards, was patched through to the control room at Chelmsford by the Operator using the '999' emergency system...
One bark, one howl, or one whine, or two of the same were the responses that came from within the house to the initial challenges of the firearms officers, and much later via the open line phone link!
Was there anyone hurt needing medical attention inside the farmhouse?
Response - one bark /howl / or a whine...
Had someone in the farmhouse been shot?
Response - one bark /howl / or a whine...
Is an ambulance required?
Response - one bark /howl / or a whine...
Thanks Mike.
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Any unusual noises would have been Sheila trying to hide/disguise her identity in some way. I know from experience that those who have these "episodes "have a remarkable aptitude for changing their voices/tones.
And thank you Lookout.
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One of the last requests known to have been requested of Sheila happened as the two ambulances arrived upon the scene at about 7am, the prompting was directed at Sheila via the open telephone link set up by the operator at 6.09am, which was still functioning by then (it got terminated at 8.15am, when Sheila's body was discovered to no longer be downstairs in the kitchen)...
The ambulances are here, do you understand?
No response..
We need the ambulance and paramedics to be able to enter the house safely, do you understand?
No response..
Please show the weapon you have been using at any window of the farmhouse, as a gesture of good will, can you confirm?
No response...
We can't send in the ambulance crew to treat the injured until you show us that you are willing to co-operate with our requests, do you agree?
No response..
Will you allow the paramedics in to treat the injured members of your family?
No response..
Sheila?
No response..
Sheila?
No verbal response..
Then, a truly remarkable turn of events occurred, at about 7.15am, the anshuzt rifle appeared at a first floor window which had not been seen there beforehand, despite a heavy police presence at the scene from 5 am, onward! This development came too late to prevent the firearms team from their objective to get into the farmhouse to try and bring the seige to an end. Communicating with Sheila via the telephone open link after 6.09am, rather than via the loud hailer approach was designed as a distraction so that the firearms officers could get into the farmhouse in a surprising turn of events...
The anshuzt rifle arrived at the first floor box room window just as the six man raid team commenced it's approach to enter the farmhouse - they knew that Sheila was upstairs in 'that' room where the rifle appeared at the window, which provided the opportunity to smash the rear farmhouse door down and enter the premises at about 7.30am...
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This is all fascinating and intriguing and the reason that I have joined this forum, so thanks. Forgive me for being on catch up but how is all of this detailed information known? Just thinking that if I'd been involved then by now I'd have blabbed to someone and this might be all over the press?
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Something else of significance occurred much earlier at the scene when PS Bews, PC Myall, and Jeremy went on a recce' of the farmhouse...
It was as a result of this 'event' occurring, which may have attracted the silhouetted figure to come and stand next to the parents bedroom window, as if peering out into the grounds at the front of the farmhouse! After a couple of minutes, the silhouetted figure walked swiftly across the full opening of the bedroom window, from right to left (as viewed from the vantage point, of Bews, Myall and Jeremy), going in the general direction of an internal doorway which led from the main bedroom into the box room...
With the benefit of hindsight, it now seems almost certain that the silhouetted figure had left the main bedroom and gone to the window in the box room which was situated on a different side of the farmhouse. It would have provided the silhouetted figure with an ideal opportunity to cast a lengthy gaze over the courtyard, near the back door to the house, as well as afford a general view toward the barns and outbuildings!
What was it, which caused this activity in the mind of the silhouetted figure?
Well...
It was the dog barking, which was locked away in one of the outbuildings, the sound of the dog barking alerted the person, whoever it was, that there was someone or something milling around outside!
Jeremy would comment to the two police officers at the time, that it was strange that his father (Neville Bamber) had not responded to the barking of the dog, because apparently it would have drawn Neville from his bed to investigate! Maybe, Neville Bamber was already dead by that stage (4.02am)? If so, then who could the silhouetted figure seen at the parents bedroom window have been?
June Bamber?
Sheila Caffell?
The Assassin?
Everything now known about by Essex police in connection with this matter leads to the inevitable conclusion that the person seen could only have been a reference to Sheila Caffell!
Remember, that when PC West had asked the operator to check the line to whf, how the operator had confirmed that the phone at the scene was 'off the hook', but that a dog could be heard to be barking? Well, maybe that was not 'Crispy' the shih Tzu dog that was barking alone inside the farmhouse, in all probability that was Sheila Mimicking a dogs bark in response to the dogs at the scene barking, both inside the farmhouse, and outside inside one of the sheds! When one of the dogs had started barking, or both of them, Sheila had took up the guantlet and started barking back at that dog, or both of the dogs!
It must have felt somewhat amusing to her, after she had attacked and killed everyone that whenever she barked, firstly 'Crispy' barked back in response, and this set off a chain reaction, whereby the other dog locked away in an outbuilding also appeared to join in on que!
Sheila must have convinced herself that she could communicate in this way with both dogs!
Hence...
Why, thereafter, she refused to use the Queen's English when communicating or in a conversation with the police who eventually turned up! She decided that she would only communicate with the police by barking like a dog, she believed that by taking this approach that she was conveying her responses to not just the police, but also to both dogs!
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Maybe the 'Beige' BT phone was in the 'Parents bedroom' off the hook.
With Neville's blood on it.
The Police needed to make a call so they moved it , the 'Beige' BT phone, to the kitchen and cleaned it after use.
The BT Open line was actually picking up sounds in the 'Parents bedroom'...
So time of Sheila's time of death was between 04.02 a.m. and when the BT open line started...6.09 a.m.
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In a nutshell, there exists numerous references in the police accounts, of a dog barking!
These were deliberately mentioned because the police believed that it was Sheila Mimicking a barking, or a howling or a whining dog! It was her way of letting them know that she was ready to bite them if they tried to enter the farmhouse! The barks, howls and whinings which Sheila was generating alerted the police that Sheila was alive inside the house, holes up somewhere with access to an arsenal of guns and ammunitions - so, the cops bided their time, hoping that Sheila might fall asleep!
Whilst ever there came a barking, a howling, or a whining sound from within the farmhouse itself, cops knew to keep themselves back!
But, everything took at turn for the better, it seemed, when by 5.25am, the firearms team were engaged in a conversation with a person from inside the farmhouse. It was a truly bizarre state of affairs, with the firearms team bellowing instructions and orders at Sheila to give herself up and to put down any weapons and walk out of the house! In response to most of these challenges two barks echoed back to the police, which appeared to come from the direction of the parents bedroom window, 'Whoof, whoof'..
'Go to the phone', and 'use the phone to communicate with us, please'?
Not surprisingly, these requests received no responses at all, not two 'whoofs', or one...
That was until 5.55am, when the state of the farmhouse phone mysteriously altered from being off the hook, to becoming engaged!
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In a nutshell, there exists numerous references in the police accounts, of a dog barking!
These were deliberately mentioned because the police believed that it was Sheila Mimicking a barking, or a howling or a whining dog! It was her way of letting them know that she was ready to bite them if they tried to enter the farmhouse! The barks, howls and whinings which Sheila was generating alerted the police that Sheila was alive inside the house, holes up somewhere with access to an arsenal of guns and ammunitions - so, the cops bided their time, hoping that Sheila might fall asleep!
Whilst ever there came a barking, a howling, or a whining sound from within the farmhouse itself, cops knew to keep themselves back!
But, everything took at turn for the better, it seemed, when by 5.25am, the firearms team were engaged in a conversation with a person from inside the farmhouse. It was a truly bizarre state of affairs, with the firearms team bellowing instructions and orders at Sheila to give herself up and to put down any weapons and walk out of the house! In response to most of these challenges two barks echoed back to the police, which appeared to come from the direction of the parents bedroom window, 'Whoof, whoof'..
'Go to the phone', and 'use the phone to communicate with us, please'?
Not surprisingly, these requests received no responses at all, not two 'whoofs', or one...
That was until 5.55am, when the state of the farmhouse phone mysteriously altered from being off the hook, to becoming engaged!
There was one occasion, however, one very telling moment when Sheila regained her senses, and rather than bark, howl, or whine at the police, her guard was down, and according to the evidence she actually spoke audible words that lie at the heart of her demise!
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The BT open line tape is key, why is it under Pii?
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There was one occasion, however, one very telling moment when Sheila regained her senses, and rather than bark, howl, or whine at the police, her guard was down, and according to the evidence she actually spoke audible words that lie at the heart of her demise!
She didn't bark, she didn't howl, she didn't whine...
She shouted, she bellowed out swear words, she screamed!
This occurred at the time PS Woodcock came around the opening edge of the internal door between kitchen and the back passage! It must have truly incensed Sheila that after setting her father's death scene by making it look as comfortable as possible whilst he had made the transition from this world to the next by sitting him down comfortably in his agony on a wooden Chair, and even using another chair to help keep him somewhat upright, despite sitting, by placing this second chair in front of him so that he could rest his arms and head on the forward chair back, only to see the police toppling him forward until he lay in a crumpled heap on the kitchen floor undignified!!
Sheila must have realised that 'now' was not the time to bark, to howl, or to whine!
She shouted, she swore, she screamed...
Amidst this struggle downstairs in the kitchen, Sheila got shot in the neck and fell like a sack of potatoes to the kitchen floor - presumed to have died...
It was 7.35am..
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She didn't bark, she didn't howl, she didn't whine...
She shouted, she bellowed out swear words, she screamed!
This occurred at the time PS Woodcock came around the opening edge of the internal door between kitchen and the back passage! It must have truly incensed Sheila that after setting her father's death scene by making it look as comfortable as possible whilst he had made the transition from this world to the next by sitting him down comfortably in his agony on a wooden Chair, and even using another chair to help keep him somewhat upright, despite sitting, by placing this second chair in front of him so that he could rest his arms and head on the forward chair back, only to see the police toppling him forward until he lay in a crumpled heap on the kitchen floor undignified!!
Sheila must have realised that 'now' was not the time to bark, to howl, or to whine!
She shouted, she swore, she screamed...
Amidst this struggle downstairs in the kitchen, Sheila got shot in the neck and fell like a sack of potatoes to the kitchen floor - presumed to have died...
It was 7.35am..
One of the police radio message logs captured the moment that Sheila reverted to human conversation (if that be the right term to use), rather than to continue barking, and howling, and whining at the police! It's all recorded in the police messages, voices, shouting, movement of bodies, movement of furniture and the crashing of crockery, and a broken ceiling lamp shade, etc, etc, etc...
All of this damage to the crockery, the sugar bowl, the ceiling light shade, the over turned stools, Neville Bambers body toppled over precariously on a chair, occurred during the life or death struggle between PS Woodcock and Sheila in the kitchen! This is the sole reason why two bodies were described as being present downstairs in the kitchen between 7.35am and 8.10am (the actual police radio message log contents only physically place two bodies downstairs by as late as 7.45am, by which time the two bodies were clearly the body f one dead male, and the body of one (supposedly) dead femal', a murder, and a suicide, however, the police logs do only confirm the presence of three bodies upstairs by 8.10am. It is, therefore, safe to assume that if Sheila's body had been upstairs by that (8.10am) time, the body count upstairs would have been noted as four, not three!
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What of the other dogs? Where were they and how many? More intriguingly to me, where does all this info about these events come from and was Jeremy there, did he hear all this dog barking correspondence?
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What of the other dogs? Where were they and how many? More intriguingly to me, where does all this info about these events come from and was Jeremy there, did he hear all this dog barking correspondence?
The family owned two dogs, one a house dog, the other a farmyard dog!
Jeremy was privy to the original barking of the farmyard dog, and perhaps Sheila's mimmick of the house dog, when he went on a recce' of the farmhouse along with PS Bews and PC Myall. He was not present at the scene at 5.25am, when the firearms team were engaged in a conversation with a person inside the farmhouse, because he had left the scene at that time with a uniformed PC to go to a nearby village to use the public telephone to call Julie Mugford'!
Upon his return Jeremy was kept away from the farmhouse, he was sat with PS Saxby in a patrol car (call sign CA07) which was parked up, in Pages Lane, next to the farm cottages - he was effectively out of earshot of the barking dogs, the barking Sheila, or the loud hailer requests and commands! He simply felt as though police had made contact with whoever the silhouetted figure at his parents bedroom window had been, and that the police were trying to negotiate bringing the matter to an end!
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The family owned two dogs, one a house dog, the other a farmyard dog!
Jeremy was privy to the original barking of the farmyard dog, and perhaps Sheila's mimmick of the house dog, when he went on a recce' of the farmhouse along with PS Bews and PC Myall. He was not present at the scene at 5.25am, when the firearms team were engaged in a conversation with a person inside the farmhouse, because he had left the scene at that time with a uniformed PC to go to a nearby village to use the public telephone to call Julie Mugford'!
Upon his return Jeremy was kept away from the farmhouse, he was sat with PS Saxby in a patrol car (call sign CA07) which was parked up, in Pages Lane, next to the farm cottages - he was effectively out of earshot of the barking dogs, the barking Sheila, or the loud hailer requests and commands! He simply felt as though police had made contact with whoever the silhouetted figure at his parents bedroom window had been, and that the police were trying to negotiate bringing the matter to an end!
Jeremy was certainly present at the police patrol vehicle (CA07) when key timed radio messages were related from the scene to the control room at Chelmsford, confirming the presence of two dead bodies downstairs in the kitchen upon entry, (to which messages, 7.35am, 7.37am, 7.38am, 7.42am, and 7.45am, refer) and a further three bodies upstairs by 8.10am, because those timed police messages were passed from the scene to the control room by either PS Saxby, PS Bews, or by PC Myall...
Jeremy knew that there was still someone alive inside the farmhouse at 4.02am, because he had seen that person, along with PS Bews, and PC Myall (the silhouetted figure at his parents bedroom window), but by 7.35am, he was hearing that police had entered the farmhouse, and that everyone was dead, including Sheila! But for PS Bews about turn where he is now making out that what they had seen was simply a trick of light, at one of the first floor windows, both PS Bews and PC Myall provided Jeremy with the perfect alibi, establishing him not to have been the killer!
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No word from PC Myall regarding what was seen at the parents bedroom window!
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No word from PS Saxby, regarding what he heard PS Bews say in his situation report via the police radio of patrol car CA07, about what had been seen at the parents bedroom window, and it seems odd that if Bews thought that what they had been looking at, had been a trick of light, that he should request that the firearms team be deployed on the strength of them having been observing a trick of light at one of the first floor windows?
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Thanks. Has Jeremy ever commented on this version of events apart from the moonlight/movement at window which I have read about? Also was Sheila ever known to have made animal noises while having episodes before?
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Of course, in addition to the contents of these critical police messages, was the fact that police back in the control room at Chelmsford police station, were monitoring via audio tape, all the ongoings within earshot of the telephone with it's handset off its cradle and that they had been monitoring continually between 6.09am until 8.15am, and so the control room would only be receiving information from the scene via the timed police radio messages, which they were already aware of via the eavesdrop of the telephone!
Funny how nobody challenges the fact that between 7.35am and 8.10am, there had been two bodies downstairs in the kitchen, and only three bodies upstairs in the bedrooms! Unless, of course, that is, that there was two bodies down and three bodies up at and or by these times!
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Thanks. Has Jeremy ever commented on this version of events apart from the moonlight/movement at window which I have read about? Also was Sheila ever known to have made animal noises while having episodes before?
No, he hasn't commented directly on any of this, but it is very interesting that he should comment on the switching off of, and the switching on of various lights in different rooms of the farmhouse during the police seige - since, this could only have been possible by human intervention, the house dog couldn't have performed these tasks!
Somebody was alive inside the farmhouse at a time when Jeremy Bamber was outside in the company of the police! He therefore, couldn't, have killed everyone and staged his sister's death scene in possession of the rifle on his parents bedroom floor - there are similarities in this case, with the case of Derek Bentley, in that in both instances Bentley and Jeremy Bamber were alibi'd by one police officer in Derek Bentley's case, but by several police officers in Jeremy's case!
I believe PS Bews recent account is a dishonest one, he knows they saw a person at the parents bedroom window, and he seeks to confuse the issue by making out that the window at which all the fuss is about, was the window top right, when the parents bedroom window was the window top left at the front of the farmhouse! Shouldn't a cop be able to tell his left from his right?
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BEWES was referring to the 'Box room' Window a type of corridor adjoining the 'Parents bedroom' and 'Twin's room"..hence "far right"
same window rifle seen by two separate police offices
Located '30 yards from house' see red arrow, behind wall.
yellow arrow 'Box room' referred to above.
They then moved to front of house hiding behind flower beds and saw further movement.
Said flower beds were slightly 'raised' in nature.
The Moon was on other side of house from 'yellow arrow' the night sky was 'clear'.
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The expression 'Trick of the light' was put in BEWES'S mouth under questioning by Jeremy's own defence lawyer!!
Great!
What a difference it would have made if JEREMY'S defence lawyer had said.
"But the Moon was on the other side of the house, and it was a clear night"!
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The expression 'Trick of the light' was put in BEWES'S mouth under questioning by Jeremy's own defence lawyer!!
Great!
What a difference it would have made if JEREMY'S defence lawyer had said.
"But the Moon was on the other side of the house, and it was a clear night"!
Exactly. And I think Jeremy had to prompt Rivlin to even bring the matter up in the first place.
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Exactly. And I think Jeremy had to prompt Rivlin to even bring the matter up in the first place.
Rivlin QC and Arlidge QC made a pre-trial agreement that the sound moderator and the scratch marks were a result of the murders.
In 2010 Jeremy wrote that this decision cost him 25 years of his life. He has written to both Rivlin and Arlidge about the issue but neither seem to do anything about it. :-\
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2427.msg74650.html
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BEWES was referring to the 'Box room' Window a type of corridor adjoining the 'Parents bedroom' and 'Twin's room"..hence "far right"
same window rifle seen by two separate police offices
Located '30 yards from house' see red arrow, behind wall.
yellow arrow 'Box room' referred to above.
They then moved to front of house hiding behind flower beds and saw further movement.
Said flower beds were slightly 'raised' in nature.
The Moon was on other side of house from 'yellow arrow' the night sky was 'clear'.
Confusion reigns, since Jeremy saw the silhouetted figure at his parents bedroom window (top left) at the front of the farmhouse, whereas, in Bews video clip account, he is referring to a window that is top right at the side of the house facing him at the time! If Bews was at the side of the farmhouse which has the courtyard and the back door to the premises, his top right window would be the box room - but when he got to the front of the farmhouse, his top right window would have been Sheila Caffell's bedroom!
The problem here, is that Jeremy has never mentioned to me, or anybody else as far as I know, that he saw somebody at either the box room window on one side of the farmhouse, or at his sister's bedroom window at the front the farmhouse! Bews has moved the sighting to a different window because he realised how important it was by the time the matter came to trial in October 1986, for Jeremy to have an alibi exonerating him from the crimes alleged against him! Since, if a police officer had said, 'yes' we believed that we saw someone who was still alive moving around inside the parents bedroom whilst Jeremy was alongside them in the grounds of the farmhouse, the case against Jeremy would have collapsed there and then!
If you added to that the fact that lights in different rooms of the farmhouse upstairs and downstairs were being switched on and off during the seige, and that the telephone inside the farmhouse had mysteriously become 'engaged' at 5.55am, which in turn became the equivalent of a '999' call from 6.09am, onwards..
Also..
That according to the contents of key and timed police radio log contents, that Sheila Caffell's body must have been the female body being spoken about as being present downstairs in the kitchen along with the body of Neville Bambers body, from 7.35am, onwards, a murder, and a suicide, by 7.45am, with a further three bodies upstairs by 8.10am...
There's more...
Sheila supposedly dead downstairs by a reliance upon several accounts (7.35am, 7.37am, 7.38am, 7.42am, and 7.45am), then pronounced as being dead by a police surgeon, Dr Craig, her body at this stage being described as being 'on the far side of the bed, upstairs in the parents bedroom with the rifle alongside her body, at 8.44am?
Yet more still...
By the time DS Jones and DC Clark visited the main bedroom crime scene at about 9.05am, the bodies of both Sheila and June Bamber were laid side by side on top of the bed, with the rifle resting on the bed in between both bodies! Rather more astonishingly, Sheila had a Bible resting on her chest at this time!
How then...
Did Sheila Caffell's body end up on the bedroom floor on the left of the bed, in possession of the anshuzt rifle, with the Bible now on the floor to the right hand side of her upper arm?
Could someone far more educated than I please try to explain to someone like me, exactly how Jeremy Bamber could have orchestrated any of this? Am I missing something? Is there something that one so lowly as I should know about?
The house dog, 'Crispy', could tell a better story than what amounted to the prosecution's case, by them portraying Jeremy as a mass murderer, who after allegedly killing off his sister, he proceeded to stage her death on the parents bedroom floor, as a suicide, suggestive that she had been responsible for the there four deaths, and at the death, her own...
If Rivlin had called the house dog, 'Crispy' to testify, it would have made more sense than that relied upon by the prosecution, Essex Police and the relatives...
Rivlin:- I am going to put it to you, in simple terms, 'did Sheila Caffell shoot herself dead upstairs on the bedroom floor'?
Response - 'whoof, whoof'...
Rivlin:- 'Now, I only require a simple answer to the following question, please tell us whether or not you were present in the main bedroom when Sheila received the second fatal shot'?
Response:- 'whoof'..
Rivlin:- ' were you, infact, hiding underneath the bed at the time this occurred, in that bedroom'?
Response:- 'whoof'..
Rivlin:- 'answer yes, or no, was Jeremy Bamber the person who shot and killed his sister by shooting her dead, there and then, at that time'?
Response:- 'whoof, whoof'..
This imaginary testimony of 'Crispy' the shih Tzu house dog makes more sense than the fairy story presented by the prosecution and its group of witness actors at the trial of Regina versus Jeremy Bamber! Cops should 'fess up and admit the truth no matter how embarrassing it is, or it was, since it is what it is, a bungled police operation that at the very least (setting this miscarriage of justice aside) cost Sheila her life!
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Rivlin QC and Arlidge QC made a pre-trial agreement that the sound moderator and the scratch marks were a result of the murders. I can vouch for this, Jeremy spoke to me many times about it, he felt like his legal team had sold him down the river, so to speak! Having said that, I met Rivlin at Birdwell armoury in 2004 during ballistics testing and he came across as an honourable bloke...
In 2010 Jeremy wrote that this decision cost him 25 years of his life. He has written to both Rivlin and Arlidge about the issue but neither seem to do anything about it. :-\
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2427.msg74650.html
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Confusion reigns, since Jeremy saw the silhouetted figure at his parents bedroom window (top left) at the front of the farmhouse, whereas, in Bews video clip account, he is referring to a window that is top right at the side of the house facing him at the time! If Bews was at the side of the farmhouse which has the courtyard and the back door to the premises, his top right window would be the box room - but when he got to the front of the farmhouse, his top right window would have been Sheila Caffell's bedroom!
The problem here, is that Jeremy has never mentioned to me, or anybody else as far as I know, that he saw somebody at either the box room window on one side of the farmhouse, or at his sister's bedroom window at the front the farmhouse! Bews has moved the sighting to a different window because he realised how important it was by the time the matter came to trial in October 1986, for Jeremy to have an alibi exonerating him from the crimes alleged against him! Since, if a police officer had said, 'yes' we believed that we saw someone who was still alive moving around inside the parents bedroom whilst Jeremy was alongside them in the grounds of the farmhouse, the case against Jeremy would have collapsed there and then!
If you added to that the fact that lights in different rooms of the farmhouse upstairs and downstairs were being switched on and off during the seige, and that the telephone inside the farmhouse had mysteriously become 'engaged' at 5.55am, which in turn became the equivalent of a '999' call from 6.09am, onwards..
Also..
That according to the contents of key and timed police radio log contents, that Sheila Caffell's body must have been the female body being spoken about as being present downstairs in the kitchen along with the body of Neville Bambers body, from 7.35am, onwards, a murder, and a suicide, by 7.45am, with a further three bodies upstairs by 8.10am...
There's more...
Sheila supposedly dead downstairs by a reliance upon several accounts (7.35am, 7.37am, 7.38am, 7.42am, and 7.45am), then pronounced as being dead by a police surgeon, Dr Craig, her body at this stage being described as being 'on the far side of the bed, upstairs in the parents bedroom with the rifle alongside her body, at 8.44am?
Yet more still...
By the time DS Jones and DC Clark visited the main bedroom crime scene at about 9.05am, the bodies of both Sheila and June Bamber were laid side by side on top of the bed, with the rifle resting on the bed in between both bodies! Rather more astonishingly, Sheila had a Bible resting on her chest at this time!
How then...
Did Sheila Caffell's body end up on the bedroom floor on the left of the bed, in possession of the anshuzt rifle, with the Bible now on the floor to the right hand side of her upper arm?
Could someone far more educated than I please try to explain to someone like me, exactly how Jeremy Bamber could have orchestrated any of this? Am I missing something? Is there something that one so lowly as I should know about?
The house dog, 'Crispy', could tell a better story than what amounted to the prosecution's case, by them portraying Jeremy as a mass murderer, who after allegedly killing off his sister, he proceeded to stage her death on the parents bedroom floor, as a suicide, suggestive that she had been responsible for the there four deaths, and at the death, her own...
If Rivlin had called the house dog, 'Crispy' to testify, it would have made more sense than that relied upon by the prosecution, Essex Police and the relatives...
Rivlin:- I am going to put it to you, in simple terms, 'did Sheila Caffell shoot herself dead upstairs on the bedroom floor'?
Response - 'whoof, whoof'...
Rivlin:- 'Now, I only require a simple answer to the following question, please tell us whether or not you were present in the main bedroom when Sheila received the second fatal shot'?
Response:- 'whoof'..
Rivlin:- ' were you, infact, hiding underneath the bed at the time this occurred, in that bedroom'?
Response:- 'whoof'..
Rivlin:- 'answer yes, or no, was Jeremy Bamber the person who shot and killed his sister by shooting her dead, there and then, at that time'?
Response:- 'whoof, whoof'..
This imaginary testimony of 'Crispy' the shih Tzu house dog makes more sense than the fairy story presented by the prosecution and its group of witness actors at the trial of Regina versus Jeremy Bamber! Cops should 'fess up and admit the truth no matter how embarrassing it is, or it was, since it is what it is, a bungled police operation that at the very least (setting this miscarriage of justice aside) cost Sheila her life!
On a more serious note, no wonder 'CRISPY' the shih Tzu house dog sought refuge beneath the bed, what with the cops shooting dead his relative, so much for everything being alright with the arrival of the cavalry at such a late hour in his ordeal, talk about letting sleeping dogs lie, and dogged police work! Seems to me that if 'CRISPY' had been a gun dog instead of a shih Tzu, Essex police might have tried to nail him for the murder of Sheila!
It's a very telling indictment, that the cops ended up treating Sheila's death as a murder, since it can only mean that the cops know that the way they shot dead Sheila Caffell on the main bedroom floor was 'not a lawful killing, but rather an unlawful one'!
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On a more serious note, no wonder 'CRISPY' the shih Tzu house dog sought refuge beneath the bed, what with the cops shooting dead his relative, so much for everything being alright with the arrival of the cavalry at such a late hour in his ordeal, talk about letting sleeping dogs lie, and dogged police work! Seems to me that if 'CRISPY' had been a gun dog instead of a shih Tzu, Essex police might have tried to nail him for the murder of Sheila!
It's a very telling indictment, that the cops ended up treating Sheila's death as a murder, since it can only mean that the cops know that the way they shot dead Sheila Caffell on the main bedroom floor was 'not a lawful killing, but rather an unlawful one'!
Poor 'Crispy' was left cowering beneath the bed in the parents bedroom, right until the moment at about 10.00am, when the 2nd team of SOCO recovered him from beneath the bed and promptly incarcerated him in a wardrobe (the dog house)!
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Poor 'Crispy' was left cowering beneath the bed in the parents bedroom, right until the moment at about 10.00am, when the 2nd team of SOCO recovered him from beneath the bed and promptly incarcerated him in a wardrobe (the dog house)!
Written inside this wardrobe or cupboard were the words 'I HATE THIS PLACE', to date, Essex police have been unable to track down who was responsible for writing the ditto, but unofficially they suspect 'Crispy' as the author...
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Written inside this wardrobe or cupboard were the words 'I HATE THIS PLACE', to date, Essex police have been unable to track down who was responsible for writing the ditto, but unofficially they suspect 'Crispy' as the author...
It was Sheila. (according to Colin)
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It was Sheila. (according to Colin)
I am aware of that, I was just trying to be sarcastic..
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The fundamental problem I have at the moment is that if we work on the assumption that Shelia was the shooter and was herself killed due to mistakes made by Essex Police, then would it have not been so much easier for the police to steamroller through their first scenario of her as guilty, rather than pursuing the framing of an innocent Jeremy? Surely they would have not wanted a court case as there was a far great chance of their errors being exposed? This is my current sticking point along with the fact that I'm not really buying this barking dog stuff, as much as I would like to find it credible.
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The fundamental problem I have at the moment is that if we work on the assumption that Shelia was the shooter and was herself killed due to mistakes made by Essex Police, then would it have not been so much easier for the police to steamroller through their first scenario of her as guilty, rather than pursuing the framing of an innocent Jeremy? Surely they would have not wanted a court case as there was a far great chance of their errors being exposed? This is my current sticking point along with the fact that I'm not really buying this barking dog stuff, as much as I would like to find it credible.
Surely you are not suggesting Sheila was not communicating with Essex Police outside, by barking ?
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The fundamental problem I have at the moment is that if we work on the assumption that Shelia was the shooter and was herself killed due to mistakes made by Essex Police, then would it have not been so much easier for the police to steamroller through their first scenario of her as guilty, rather than pursuing the framing of an innocent Jeremy? Surely they would have not wanted a court case as there was a far great chance of their errors being exposed? This is my current sticking point along with the fact that I'm not really buying this barking dog stuff, as much as I would like to find it credible.
Essex police dug themselves into a hole that was impossible to climb back out of!
Throughout the first month, for example, they presented the incident as four murders and a suicide, where they were satisfied that Sheila had shot and killed the other four victims, and then turned the gun on herself!
How was it possible once they adopted this account, for them to suddenly do an about turn and admit to the shooting of Sheila downstairs in the kitchen, a shot which was believed to have killed her? Then, after 8.10am, with all the bodies of the five victims accounted for (two down, three upstairs), the police start to admit that they had made a mistake in calling Sheila's death in the kitchen, instead she survived that shooting and at some point after 8.10am, she recovered and made her way all the way upstairs to her parents bedroom, where she collapsed once again, onto her parents bed! How the police surgeon, Dr Craig, had pronounced Sheila as being dead with her body on the far side of the bed at 8.44am? But, as a result of moving Sheila's body to the bedroom floor, there had occurred a mishap involving the mishandling of a rifle which out of curiosity the police presented to her body just to see if it might be possible to suggest that the solitary bullet wound in her neck had been inflicted by use of 'that' rifle, and not the 'other' one that 'was' downstairs in the kitchen! Essex police then at pains to explain why would they be considering using a rifle with Sheila's body on the bedroom floor, if they already knew that 'another' gun had fired the shot in question? Nevertheless, if the police had come clean and told the facts as they stood at that time, adding that whilst this gauging exercise was being undertaken, how the weapon in question had discharged a second bullet into Sheila's head, via a shot under the chin! So that by 'that state's Sheila had been shot twice! More disturbingly, at the time of this mishap, blood started to court from the second bullet entry wound, the corners of Sheila's mouth, and her nostril, with such a frequency that officers suspected that she might not have been dead after all? So, they swiftly removed the rifle, and turned Sheila's body onto its right side into the recovery position, whilst an officer attempted to stem the flow of fresh blood from the recently inflicted neck wound, only to no avail...
Soon afterwards the police rolled Sheila's body into the supine position and plonked the rifle on her body, deciding to claim that they suspected her to have taken her own life!!
That's what your expecting us to believe the cops would have said, that there'd be no reason to try and frame Jeremy Bamber for the murders of the other four family victims, and of course, the murder of Sheila Caffell herself?
Well, hold on a moment, cops were more than willing to continue treating these five deaths as four murders and a suicide, but they came unstuck as a result of the relatives who suspected things couldn't have panned out in keeping with the police account! For a start, after four weeks or more, since the shooting tragedy, glaring contradictions surfaced regarding the whereabouts of Sheila's body, in a deceased state! Firstly, Sheila was dead downstairs in the kitchen, from as early as 7.35am, then mysteriously pronounced as being dead on the far side of the bed, by the police surgeon, Dr Craig at 8.44am! But there was more, because two police officers (DS Stan Jones and Mick Clark) had told Ann Eaton and the other relatives in the first morning of the police investigation that the body of Neville Bamber had been found in the kitchen, that the child victims had been found sleeping in their respective beds, and that the bodies of June and Sheila had been found laying side by side on top of the parents bedroom, with the rifle resting on the bed, in between both bodies, and that Sheila had got a Bible on her chest at that time!
When, now during the first week in September 1985, one month after the tragedy,cthe relatives were finding out that the police were saying that June's body was found on the bedroom floor next to the Forrest of the bedroom, and that Sheila's body was on the bedroom floor on the opposite side of the bed, clutching a rifle! Whereas police had told the relatives that Sheila had only been shot once, she had in fact been shot twice!
There was something else which the relatives knew about, and this was that Stan Jones had originally seized a Sound moderator and it's rifle from the scene, they knew this because on the evening of 9th August 1975, when Jones and Jones attended whf to hand over the keys to the farmhouse, Stan Jones handed to Peter Eaton the rifle in question, which Peter Eaton replaced back in the farmhouse! In one of Ann Eaton's notes that she had a habit of keeping from the time of the shooting tragedy, states that 'Peter put the rifle back'!
That rifle had a sound moderator attached to its barrel, and is believed to have been owned by Anthony Pargeter!
There were lots of inconsistencies regarding what had happened, who had done this or that!
This was what sparked the relatives into action! They hounded Essex police, and in the end forced them to start a fresh investigation, with Jeremy as the chief suspect at the heart of that fresh investigation - otherwise there might be dire consequences for Essex Police, such threats compelled Essex police, to try to frame Jeremy Bamber as the murderer at any cost, or face the music for their misreads!
It worked a treat, and the rest is history!
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Oh how I wish that this forum would not come out with stupid topics I have been through the Z theme
and the helicopters and all the bull in between.
Just when I thought that I had heard it all we find the ridiculous suggestion that Sheila was howling and barking to the police.
Utter RUBBISH.
Can I suggest that all stick to what we know and steer away from fantasy.
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Z theme? What is that?
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Z theme? What is that?
An anonymous 'informant' that Mike used to claim he was in touch with.
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An anonymous 'informant' that Mike used to claim he was in touch with.
[/quotan informant that I was in touch with,candidate I am still in touch with!
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Oh how I wish that this forum would not come out with stupid topics I have been through the Z theme
and the helicopters and all the bull in between.
Just when I thought that I had heard it all we find the ridiculous suggestion that Sheila was howling and barking to the police.
Utter RUBBISH.
Can I suggest that all stick to what we know and steer away from fantasy.
Hang on a minute...
The only response that came from within the farmhouse during the entire seige, apart from lights in different rooms being switched on or off, and the changing state of the telephone at 5.55am which mysteriously became engaged from it being off the hook, and the decision to transfer the line via the 999 emergency system directly to the control room which was ongoing until 8.15am, was the fact that at various times a dog was heard to be barking, and the firearms officers were kept at bay because of all these factors until about 7.30am...
The barking therefore, was a significant feature in the decision not to storm the farmhouse!
It is a well established fact that people who suffer from mental illness, sometimes or often take on the mantle of an animal!
It's true, Sheila was barking, howling, and whining like a dog, wait and see!!!
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Oh how I wish that this forum would not come out with stupid topics I have been through the Z theme
and the helicopters and all the bull in between.
Just when I thought that I had heard it all we find the ridiculous suggestion that Sheila was howling and barking to the police.
Utter RUBBISH.
Can I suggest that all stick to what we know and steer away from fantasy.
How about Jeremy cycling through the fields on a woman’s bike in a scuba suit at two in the morning. Crawls through a window and murders five people while engineering to appear as a murder suicide. Fooling EP into believing it was just that. And it was all down to detective Boutflour who eventually saved the day.
How’s that for a stupid story?
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How about Jeremy cycling through the fields on a woman’s bike in a scuba suit at two in the morning. Crawls through a window and murders five people while engineering to appear as a murder suicide. Fooling EP into believing it was just that. And it was all down to detective Boutflour who eventually saved the day.
How’s that for a stupid story?
How about Nevill ringing Bamber after Sheila starts shooting the twins ?
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Hang on a minute...
The only response that came from within the farmhouse during the entire seige, apart from lights in different rooms being switched on or off, and the changing state of the telephone at 5.55am which mysteriously became engaged from it being off the hook, and the decision to transfer the line via the 999 emergency system directly to the control room which was ongoing until 8.15am, was the fact that at various times a dog was heard to be barking, and the firearms officers were kept at bay because of all these factors until about 7.30am...
The barking therefore, was a significant feature in the decision not to storm the farmhouse!
It is a well established fact that people who suffer from mental illness, sometimes or often take on the mantle of an animal!
It's true, Sheila was barking, howling, and whining like a dog, wait and see!!!
Thanks Mike. Why do you think Sheila chose to comminicate with the police by barking like a dog ?
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How about Nevill ringing Bamber after Sheila starts shooting the twins ?
What if he didn't yet know that? What if he was disorientated, having been suddenly woken by the incident?
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What if he didn't yet know that? What if he was disorientated, having been suddenly woken by the incident?
According to Jeremy’s version of events Nevill never mentioned any shots fired. Just going crazy. So there you go.
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Thanks Mike. Why do you think Sheila chose to comminicate with the police by barking like a dog ?
I think the psychological pressure that was trapped within exploded with an insessent desire to bark, howl and whine like a dog, due to her inability to show any interest in her boys, or housework, and even her own personal heigiene, and the fact that she must have been made to feel like a dog, ordered about, here, there, and everywhere by her parents! If what Jeremy told us was true, for example, that her parents were telling Sheila that she needed help in bringing up the two children, there was talk of getting social services to help her, and even the possibility of arranging foster parents, as well as a suggestion that a short Holliday in a Bournemouth rest home would do her the world of good! Even on the last evening on this earth, she was summoned to the house phone by her mother at about 10.00am to speak with Pamela Boutflour!
I think Sheila's attitude at the time of this phone call just about summed up how fed up she had become at being ordered a round like a dog 'come and speak to Aunty Pamela' her mother beckoned..
Sheila's defiant mood started to shine through at such a late hour, since, according to Pamela Boutflours version of the events, Sheila hardly spoke a word throughout the entire conversation, other than the odd, 'yes', or 'no'. And at the death, apparently simply handed the telephones handset over to her mother without even saying 'goodnight, aunty Pam', as she was normally accustomed to saying!
The tell tale signs were all there that evening to suggest that things were going to come to a head!
For example, long before Pamela Boutflours call to June and Sheila that evening, June Bamber had missed her regular Tuesday evening Bible class! It was an important religious festive that day (6th August) 'THE TRANSFIGURATION OF GOD'. No-one has ever stopped to wonder, why June did not attend her regular Bible class meeting?
But...
There were things which were afoot in the Bamber household, that required that Sheila was not left alone inside the farmhouse in the state of mind she had been in, she had certainly been behaving oddly ever since she arrived at the farmhouse with her two children for a break from her normal routine! There had been the journey to the farmhouse in the car with Colin and the children, Sheila sat in complete silence throughout the entire journey! Of course, this type of silent treatment surfaced again during the phone call episode spoken about! But, there were two other events worthy of note, one was the fact that Sheila had verbally attacked an Electricity Board Officer who had attended at the farmhouse to take a meter reading, only for him to be confronted by a screaming, whaling, blabbering Sheila, who swore constantly at him, ordering him off her farm! Apparently this official became very frightened, and feared for his safety, the type of situation he normally encountered by family dogs! However, June stepped in to save the day, explaining to the official that he would have to excuse Sheila because she hadn't been taking her medication!
Well, of course, this was a turn up for the book, because by all accounts, it wasn't that Sheila had'nt been taking her medication, so much as it had been halved by her GP - Sheila was obviously effected by withdrawal symptoms related to that (Haloperidol) drug! What no-one talks about is the black eye that June Bamber got during that occasion of preventing Sheila from the possibility of physically attacking the official in question! That black eye and the Bamber Parents concern for Sheila's and the grandchildren well being, was the chief reason why June Bamber didn't attend her regular Bible class that Tuesday night! There were guns laid about in the farmhouse, and thousands of rounds of ammunition for a variety of different weapons! The parents must have felt that June had to miss her Bible class, therefore, for a number of different reasons, aforementioned!
It must have been somewhat traumatising for Sheila, to listen or to overhear her mother telling Pamela Boutflour that Sheila had gone upstairs to bed, and that she was going to bring Sheila and the boys around to Pam's for tea on the following day, so that Pam could have a look at Sheila, who according to June, was acting 'oddly'...
Alarm bells should have started to ring in June's mind regarding Sheila's odd behaviour as accounted by her to her sister during that last telephone call!
What exactly did June Bamber mean, by saying that Sheila was behaving oddly?
Well, believe it or not...
Sheila had been refusing to speak in a satisfactory way to either of her parents since she arrived at the farm on that last occasion! She hadn't spoken even to Jeremy! In fact, although June and Sheila were seen out and about in the local village shops with the children accompanying them, Sheila never spoke a word! Even on that last Tuesday afternoon, when Sheila and one of her boys and 'Crispy' the shih Tzu, had taken Jeremy some sandwiches to the field where Jeremy was busy harvesting, Sheila didn't speak - she just handed over the sandwiches and walked off.
The really odd thing what June Bamber had noticed was that a part from the abusive outburst involving the meter man, that Sheila had started to switch off communicating with other fellow human beings, not just strangers, but close members of her immediate family! June must have also noticed that whenever Sheila was in the presence of 'Crispy', how Sheila became somewhat transformed, as if she was in her own little world, and the oddest thing ever, was that Sheila had started to Mimicking the whimpering and whinings, and the barking made by Crispy! At first, Sheila only responded after 'Crispy' had made one of these sounds, so that in affect, if 'Crispy' whimpered, Sheila would make the exact same whimpering sound! If 'Crispy' whined, Sheila would then whine! If 'Crispy' barked or howled, Sheila would Mimicking every sound! However, June had noticed on that last Tuesday she would spend alive on this earth, that Sheila had started to instigate 'Crispy', to whimper, whine, bark or to howl - and the truly odd thing was, June noticed, was that 'Crispy' was reacting spontaneously to the noises Sheila was making, it was like Sheila and 'Crispy' were communicating with eachother using dog language!
That was what June Bamber was talking about, when she told her sister Pamela on the telephone that Tuesday night 'I want you to have a look at her, because she is behaving oddly!
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Thanks Mike.
Did Jeremy not notice Sheila was barking, howling & whining like a dog as well as mimicking & communicating with Crispy ? Or did no one tell him ?
Maybe the CT should make a public request to EP & to supporters for disclosure & financial donations. To have the audio of the open phone line released. So they can hire an expert to see if the dog barking was Sheila rather than Crispy. Or you could make a Youtube video. That is if the audio is available.
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Thanks Mike.
Did Jeremy not notice Sheila was barking, howling & whining like a dog as well as mimicking & communicating with Crispy ? Or did no one tell him ?
Maybe the CT should make a public request to EP & to supporters for disclosure & financial donations. To have the audio of the open phone line released. So they can hire an expert to see if the dog barking was Sheila rather than Crispy. Or you could make a Youtube video. That is if the audio is available.
There is a 'Message to Stephen Kavanagh - Chief Constable of Essex Police. April 2018' thread.
Why don't you ask him?
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Adam is too busy talking about posters to contact anyone outside of the forum !
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Adam is too busy talking about posters to contact anyone outside of the forum !
LOL, brilliant!
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How about Nevill ringing Bamber after Sheila starts shooting the twins ?
He didn't...
Neville Bamber was not even present in the farmhouse when Sheila shot her children and mother dead, in their beds...
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Thanks Mike.
Did Jeremy not notice Sheila was barking, howling & whining like a dog as well as mimicking & communicating with Crispy ? Or did no one tell him ?
Maybe the CT should make a public request to EP & to supporters for disclosure & financial donations. To have the audio of the open phone line released. So they can hire an expert to see if the dog barking was Sheila rather than Crispy. Or you could make a Youtube video. That is if the audio is available.
Well, from what Jeremy told me it becomes clear that he made a very telling observation to PS Bews, and PC Myall, when they went on a recce' of his parents farmhouse!
He commented, 'now that's strange, that my father isn't investigating the dogs barking' or words to that / this effect...
Well, maybe it wasn't the dog barking, maybe it was Sheila Mimicking the dogs!
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It seems somewhat obvious that the only Audio sounds coming from within the farmhouse, were static of the telephone off its hook, and an engaged tone at 5.55am - and several references to what has been described, as 'a dog barking'...
Now, forgive me for pointing this out, but the sound of a dog barking, seems to me, to be high in priority as to the reason why the firearms team did not try a forced entry into the farmhouse, any sooner than 7.30am!
How, therefore, can anyone say otherwise with a degree of certainty that the question of who was barking, was never in any doubt? Who can say the only creature barking was the dog?
Seems to me that the barking as though made by a dog was one of the principle reasons for why police did not try to force entry to the farmhouse any sooner! This was linked to the show of the anshuzt rifle at the box room window at about 7.15am...Dog stops barking, rifle put on display at first floor box room window, firearms officers force entry into the premises!
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It seems somewhat obvious that the only Audio sounds coming from within the farmhouse, were static of the telephone off its hook, and an engaged tone at 5.55am - and several references to what has been described, as 'a dog barking'...
Now, forgive me for pointing this out, but the sound of a dog barking, seems to me, to be high in priority as to the reason why the firearms team did not try a forced entry into the farmhouse, any sooner than 7.30am!
How, therefore, can anyone say otherwise with a degree of certainty that the question of who was barking, was never in any doubt? Who can say the only creature barking was the dog?
Seems to me that the barking as though made by a dog was one of the principle reasons for why police did not try to force entry to the farmhouse any sooner! This was linked to the show of the anshuzt rifle at the box room window at about 7.15am...
Dog stops barking, rifle put on display at first floor box room window, firearms officers force entry into the premises!
Sheila is the female supposedly shot and killed downstairs in the region of the kitchen, her body wasn't upstairs by 08.10am...
At no stage after the firearms team forced their way into the premises was the dog heard to bark at all, it was eventually cowering underneath the bed that the bodies of June Bamber and Sheila were both resting upon between 8.44am and 9.12am...
For those of you who insist that when the police surgeon, Dr Craig, pronounced Sheila as being dead at 8.44am, his reference to her body being on the far side of the bed, actually was reference to her body already being upon the bedroom floor beyond the bed, bear this in mind - if that be true, who moved Sheila's body onto the bed from the floor in time for DS Jones and DC Clark to witness the bodies of June Bamber and Sheila Caffell' laid on top of the bed side by side at about 9.05am, with the rifle resting on the bed in between both bodies, and with a Bible resting atop Sheila Caffell's chest?
Why would the police move Sheila's body from the bedroom floor after 8.44am, and place her body on top of the bed beside the body of June Bamber by 9.05am, and then remove her body back onto the bedroom floor in time for PC bird to capture her body there on the bedroom floor in possession of the rifle by 11.00am?
Bodies were being moved about like musical chairs, and the rifle, oh and the Bible too!
Poor old 'Crispy' hid beneath the bed out of the way, probably fearing that the cops might want to shoot him too..
Then along came Ron Cook, who rather than shoot him to death, locked the poor little critter in a wardrobe, caged like a common criminal - maybe the cops suspected 'Crispy' of having something to do with the happenings during the week small hours of that morning, he was put in the doghouse, as good as convicted with four legs to stand upon, a possible accomplice, senior officers must have seriously been considering putting some of the blame upon poor old 'Crispy', if he'd been a gun dog his number would have been up!
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Sheila is the female supposedly shot and killed downstairs in the region of the kitchen, her body wasn't upstairs by 08.10am...
At no stage after the firearms team forced their way into the premises was the dog heard to bark at all, it was eventually cowering underneath the bed that the bodies of June Bamber and Sheila were both resting upon between 8.44am and 9.12am...
For those of you who insist that when the police surgeon, Dr Craig, pronounced Sheila as being dead at 8.44am, his reference to her body being on the far side of the bed, actually was reference to her body already being upon the bedroom floor beyond the bed, bear this in mind - if that be true, who moved Sheila's body onto the bed from the floor in time for DS Jones and DC Clark to witness the bodies of June Bamber and Sheila Caffell' laid on top of the bed side by side at about 9.05am, with the rifle resting on the bed in between both bodies, and with a Bible resting atop Sheila Caffell's chest?
Why would the police move Sheila's body from the bedroom floor after 8.44am, and place her body on top of the bed beside the body of June Bamber by 9.05am, and then remove her body back onto the bedroom floor in time for PC bird to capture her body there on the bedroom floor in possession of the rifle by 11.00am?
Bodies were being moved about like musical chairs, and the rifle, oh and the Bible too!
Poor old 'Crispy' hid beneath the bed out of the way, probably fearing that the cops might want to shoot him too..
Then along came Ron Cook, who rather than shoot him to death, locked the poor little critter in a wardrobe, caged like a common criminal - maybe the cops suspected 'Crispy' of having something to do with the happenings during the week small hours of that morning, he was put in the doghouse, as good as convicted with four legs to stand upon, a possible accomplice, senior officers must have seriously been considering putting some of the blame upon poor old 'Crispy', if he'd been a gun dog his number would have been up!
It was a good job that 'Crispy' was a shih Tzu, or the cops would have probably nailed him for something or other..
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None of the witnesses who claim to have heard what appeared to be a dog that was barking inside the farmhouse, have attested to that fact, as though what they heard was the whimperings, the whinings, the barking or the howling of 'Crispy' the dog, as opposed to it being a case of 'Sheila Caffell' Mimicking the family dog!
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None of the witnesses who claim to have heard what appeared to be a dog that was barking inside the farmhouse, have attested to that fact, as though what they heard was the whimperings, the whinings, the barking or the howling of 'Crispy' the dog, as opposed to it being a case of 'Sheila Caffell' Mimicking the family dog!
If it was 'Crispy' the shih Tzu dog making all of this / that commotion, rather than a mixture of 'CRISPY' and 'Sheila Caffell', then 'that dog' had an awful lot of influence, which arguably altered the course of history in this case!!
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Since 'Crispy' the shih Tzu house dog was found cowering beneath the bed upon which the bodies of June Bamber and Sheila Caffell's bodies were laying by 9.05am, to enable Stan Jones and Mick Clark to confirm the position and location of these two victims at that precise moment in time, and it took until after 10.00am when the 2nd team of SOCO, compromising of DI Cook, DS Davidson, DC Hammersley, and PC Bird, to locate the dog, it beggars belief why 'none of the firearms team' made any mention of the dog barking again, once they decided to force their way into the farmhouse?
I just can't understand, why the barking, howling, whining of a dog, kept the police at arm's length and beyond for Almost 4 hours , and yet no sooner does the rifle appear at the first floor window, and the six man raid team force their way into the farmhouse, that 'CRISPY' the shih Tzu house dog (or Sheila and the dog) were stunned into perfect silence, and that this coincided with the report that there were in fact two bodies in the kitchen, the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female?
But where was 'CRISPY' the shih Tzu house dog at this time?
Was he downstairs, or upstairs?
Why is it that the only telephone that was supposedly working inside the farmhouse, was the ivory coloured round finger dial phone in the kitchen, and 'Crispy' was found at 10.00am, cowering beneath the bed, in a totally different part of the farmhouse? Maybe, he came down to the kitchen and barked responses into the handset of the kitchen phone from 6.09am until about 7.30am, before dashing back upstairs in between these communication episodes between himself and the police, or vice versa to conceal himself under the bed?
Or...
Could it be that between 5.25am and about 7.00am, that it was Sheila who the police were engaged in a conversation with from inside the farmhouse? It was Sheila barking and howling like a dog, and it was Sheila who kept the firearms team at arm's length for almost 4 long hours?
Let's assume that the firearms team were engaged in a conversation with a person from inside the farmhouse at only 5.25am?
Note, that the reference is to 'a person' from inside the farmhouse, not to a shih Tzu house dog who was literally barking mad!
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He didn't...
Neville Bamber was not even present in the farmhouse when Sheila shot her children and mother dead, in their beds...
Where was Nevill Mike ?
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He was still finishing off in the fields-------remember after Jeremy left at appx 9.30 Nevill went back to work ??
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Since 'Crispy' the shih Tzu house dog was found cowering beneath the bed upon which the bodies of June Bamber and Sheila Caffell's bodies were laying by 9.05am, to enable Stan Jones and Mick Clark to confirm the position and location of these two victims at that precise moment in time, and it took until after 10.00am when the 2nd team of SOCO, compromising of DI Cook, DS Davidson, DC Hammersley, and PC Bird, to locate the dog, it beggars belief why 'none of the firearms team' made any mention of the dog barking again, once they decided to force their way into the farmhouse?
I just can't understand, why the barking, howling, whining of a dog, kept the police at arm's length and beyond for Almost 4 hours , and yet no sooner does the rifle appear at the first floor window, and the six man raid team force their way into the farmhouse, that 'CRISPY' the shih Tzu house dog (or Sheila and the dog) were stunned into perfect silence, and that this coincided with the report that there were in fact two bodies in the kitchen, the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female?
But where was 'CRISPY' the shih Tzu house dog at this time?
Was he downstairs, or upstairs?
Why is it that the only telephone that was supposedly working inside the farmhouse, was the ivory coloured round finger dial phone in the kitchen, and 'Crispy' was found at 10.00am, cowering beneath the bed, in a totally different part of the farmhouse? Maybe, he came down to the kitchen and barked responses into the handset of the kitchen phone from 6.09am until about 7.30am, before dashing back upstairs in between these communication episodes between himself and the police, or vice versa to conceal himself under the bed?
Or...
Could it be that between 5.25am and about 7.00am, that it was Sheila who the police were engaged in a conversation with from inside the farmhouse? It was Sheila barking and howling like a dog, and it was Sheila who kept the firearms team at arm's length for almost 4 long hours?
Let's assume that the firearms team were engaged in a conversation with a person from inside the farmhouse at only 5.25am?
Note, that the reference is to 'a person' from inside the farmhouse, not to a shih Tzu house dog who was literally barking mad!
Why do you think Jeremy suggested Crispy fired the second shot Mike ? He instantly accepted the police saying Sheila could not have fired the second shot in the police interviews.
Had Jeremy previously been told that Sheila had received two neck shots. With his knowledge of the rifle, he may have known Sheila would have been too injured to fire the second shot ?
Therefore it could only be Crispy.
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He was still finishing off in the fields-------remember after Jeremy left at appx 9.30 Nevill went back to work ??
Sheila opened fire at 9.30am ?
Did Nevill not notice June & the twins had been shot in their beds until 3.10am. Then phoned Jeremy ?
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Sheila opened fire at 9.30am ?
Did Nevill not notice June & the twins had been shot in their beds until 3.10am. Then phoned Jeremy ?
I didn't say that " Sheila opened fire at 9.30 PM !!"
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I didn't say that " Sheila opened fire at 9.30 PM !!"
I don't understand.
Mike is saying Nevill was not inside WHF when the shooting started. When I asked where Nevill was, you said harvesting at 9.30pm.
So I assummed the shooting started at 9.30pm.
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I don't understand.
Mike is saying Nevill was not inside WHF when the shooting started. When I asked where Nevill was, you said harvesting at 9.30pm.
So I assummed the shooting started at 9.30pm.
To Assume ?--------That's making an ASS out of U and ME !! Get it ?
I said that Nevill continued farming after Jeremy had left. What Sheila was doing at that point we don't know------------not even YOU !!
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To Assume ?--------That's making an ASS out of U and ME !! Get it ?
I said that Nevill continued farming after Jeremy had left. What Sheila was doing at that point we don't know------------not even YOU !!
Ok. Mike will have to answer the question I put to him.
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Where was Nevill Mike ?
After Jeremy left the farmhouse to go home to his cottage in nearby Head Street, Goldhanger, at about 9.30pm, Neville was tied up in taking the tractor to the field intending to bring the last trailor of produce back to the barn (this had been agreed earlier, and the workers in the field were expecting Neville Bamber to return with the tractor after Jeremy's last run back to the farmhouse)!
However, something went Amis and the the last trailor was apparently not loaded in time, and Neville Bamber left the tractor in the possession of Ralph Neville, and Neville Bamber walked back to the farmhouse, having given the tractor to Ralph Neville who took the tractor back to Osea Road Caravan Park where the family had put him up in a caravan! His camper van was left parked up overnight at whf...
Sheila shot her kids and June Bamber dead in their beds long before Neville Bamber returned to the farmhouse on foot!
Even after his return to the farmhouse, he did not venture upstairs to his bedroom, he got out of his working clothes downstairs, his work trousers were used by the police to stem the flow of blood spreading further afield around the base of the metal coal hod inside which his head had been placed!
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Thanks Mike. That explains it.