Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: mike tesko on November 25, 2017, 06:37:PM
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The following witness statements, made in the name of Pamela Boutflour have since been found and will now be posted for consideration of their contents:-
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The following witness statements, made in the name of Pamela Boutflour have since been found and will now be posted for consideration of their contents:-
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Thank-you for that, Mike. I don't believe the veracity of those statements can be challenged. It appears to be a true and accurate reflection of the family dynamic and shows perfectly Pam's character.
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Thank-you for that, Mike. I don't believe the veracity of those statements can be challenged. It appears to be a true and accurate reflection of the family dynamic and shows perfectly Pam's character.
Jane, I shall endeavour to post all new material as and when I come across it, in an effort to stimulate debate...
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Jane, I shall endeavour to post all new material as and when I come across it, in an effort to stimulate debate...
Will look forward to it, Mike.
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Jane, I shall endeavour to post all new material as and when I come across it, in an effort to stimulate debate...
It's not looking good for Jeremy so far..
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Not forgetting that also in prison with JB was Eric Allison and Michael O'Brien who both agree that JB is innocent after both having conversed with JB on two separate occasions.
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It's not looking good for Jeremy so far..
No, it isn't. Pam corroborates many of the things that have been said here about his behaviours post murders.
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It's not looking good for Jeremy so far..
Or for the cash flow, come on supporters dig deep for Christmas
https://companycheck.co.uk/company/09883616/J-B-CAMPAIGN-LTD/financials
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Not forgetting that also in prison with JB was Eric Allison and Michael O'Brien who both agree that JB is innocent after both having conversed with JB on two separate occasions.
Did they know him prior to his conviction?
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No, it isn't. Pam corroborates many of the things that have been said here about his behaviours post murders.
Like BW,she conveniently changed her mind.A far cry when she was shot down in flames after asking about JB's health one time.
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Or for the cash flow, come on supporters dig deep for Christmas
https://companycheck.co.uk/company/09883616/J-B-CAMPAIGN-LTD/financials
Speaking of which, I'm certain I recall someone predicting he'd be out by Christmas. Well, there's still another month. On the other hand, I don't think they said WHICH Christmas.
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Like BW,she conveniently changed her mind.A far cry when she was shot down in flames after asking about JB's health one time.
I don't believe we've previously seen her WS to know what she said, so unless you're psychic -another of your infallible talents, maybe?- I don't see how you can possibly know she'd changed her mind.
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Like BW,she conveniently changed her mind.A far cry when she was shot down in flames after asking about JB's health one time.
A bit unfair that Lookout :P
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I don't believe we've previously seen her WS to know what she said, so unless you're psychic -another of your infallible talents, maybe?- I don't see how you can possibly know she'd changed her mind.
You know full well that Pamela had asked how Jeremy was and it fell on deaf ears. It certainly didn't go down well.
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You know full well that Pamela had asked how Jeremy was and it fell on deaf ears. It certainly didn't go down well.
Why the hell should she NOT enquire about his health? Given the way he appears to have treated her, I'd say it was generous of her to care. It was hardly her fault if it "fell on deaf ears" and it has little to do with her changing her mind.
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It's not looking good for Jeremy so far..
How so?
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Why the hell should she NOT enquire about his health? Given the way he appears to have treated her, I'd say it was generous of her to care. It was hardly her fault if it "fell on deaf ears" and it has little to do with her changing her mind.
Erm------hadn't he been imprisoned for " murdering " her family ??
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Why the hell should she NOT enquire about his health? Given the way he appears to have treated her, I'd say it was generous of her to care. It was hardly her fault if it "fell on deaf ears" and it has little to do with her changing her mind.
Would you be in the habit of asking about the health of a " murderer ?" Would it make you popular ?
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Erm------hadn't he been imprisoned for " murdering " her family ??
Certainly, and was receiving his punishment. Perhaps she holds to the Christian tenet of hating the crime not the one who commits it.
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How so?
Avoiding the relatives at every turn, not showing any magnanimity as to allowing one of them into the hearse springs to mind, not visiting his grandmother, paying lip service to Pamela, inquiring about the teeth for goodness sake, suggesting that he had regressed into childhood memories which were more ingenuous, before he had descended into that diablerie, that miasma which White House Farm had become those last few years.
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Would you be in the habit of asking about the health of a " murderer ?" Would it make you popular ?
I'm not given to saying what I'd do in circumstances I've never experienced. Why would being popular concern me?
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Certainly, and was receiving his punishment. Perhaps she holds to the Christian tenet of hating the crime not the one who commits it.
Excuses excuses ::)
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Excuses excuses ::)
Excuses for what, Lookout? Not trying to make her a clone of you? I see no reason to want to. There seems to be an integrity about her WS which suggests her own.
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Avoiding the relatives at every turn, not showing any magnanimity as to allowing one of them into the hearse springs to mind, not visiting his grandmother, paying lip service to Pamela, inquiring about the teeth for goodness sake, suggesting that he had regressed into childhood memories which were more ingenuous, before he had descended into that diablerie, that miasma which White House Farm had become those last few years.
And yet, Sheila's was the female body reported to be present downstairs in the kitchen between 7.35am, and 8.10am, Sheila's was the body on the far side of the bedd when the police surgeon, Craig verified her death at 8.44am, Sheila's body was laid on top of the bed alongside the body of June Bamber with the rifle between both of them and there was a bible on topof Sheila's chest, and then as we know her body ended up on the bedroom floor in possession of the rifle which is aid to have fired both of the bullets which wounded and killed her...
Whatever anyone thinks of Jeremy Bamber he certainly did not and could not have played any role in the death of his sister...
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And yet, Sheila's was the female body reported to be present downstairs in the kitchen between 7.35am, and 8.10am, Sheila's was the body on the far side of the bedd when the police surgeon, Craig verified her death at 8.44am, Sheila's body was laid on top of the bed alongside the body of June Bamber with the rifle between both of them and there was a bible on topof Sheila's chest, and then as we know her body ended up on the bedroom floor in possession of the rifle which is aid to have fired both of the bullets which wounded and killed her...
Whatever anyone thinks of Jeremy Bamber he certainly did not and could not have played any role in the death of his sister...
I don't know whether there is truth in that or not. I could envisage the individuals concerned attempting CPR on this young, beautiful woman in an attempt to resuscitate and maybe covering that up, but wasn't there a report of someone covering her private parts because of the rucked up nightie.
I don't know what to believe..
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Avoiding the relatives at every turn, not showing any magnanimity as to allowing one of them into the hearse springs to mind, not visiting his grandmother, paying lip service to Pamela, inquiring about the teeth for goodness sake, suggesting that he had regressed into childhood memories which were more ingenuous, before he had descended into that diablerie, that miasma which White House Farm had become those last few years.
This is contradicted by other statements. Furthermore it does not prove anything meaningful even if true.
Pamela does not believe Sheila killed anyone and Brett does not believe Jeremy killed anyone. Both opinions mean nothing nor can they both be correct. That is why anecdotal evidence is eclipsed by systematic scientific evaluation.
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I don't know whether there is truth in that or not. I could envisage the individuals concerned attempting CPR on this young, beautiful woman in an attempt to resuscitate and maybe covering that up, but wasn't there a report of someone covering her private parts because of the rucked up nightie.
I don't know what to believe..
Many crime scene photographs were not reproduced by the COLPinvestigators because they contained images where police officers were caught on camera posing with the bodies of victims, or in Jeremy's own words, the cops treated the bodies of his family like props in a film production, and I believe that Jeremy complained about this to somebody or other, but his complaint got nowhere...
It's disgusting!!!
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A truly awful thought !
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Many crime scene photographs were not reproduced by the COLPinvestigators because they contained images where police officers were caught on camera posing with the bodies of victims, or in Jeremy's own words, the cops treated the bodies of his family like props in a film production, and I believe that Jeremy complained about this to somebody or other, but his complaint got nowhere...
It's disgusting!!!
But of course, this is only rumour/salacious gossip, isn't it, Mike.
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But of course, this is only rumour/salacious gossip, isn't it, Mike.
Is it though ?
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But of course, this is only rumour/salacious gossip, isn't it, Mike.
Unfortunately, no, since there exists an official record of a large number of crime scene photographs which the COLP investigation did not reproduce...
There also existed a photograph of DC 'Mick' Clark on the roof of whf (after the shootings) with a banner plastered on the rooof declaring, 'MICK WAS HERE'...
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Many crime scene photographs were not reproduced by the COLPinvestigators because they contained images where police officers were caught on camera posing with the bodies of victims, or in Jeremy's own words, the cops treated the bodies of his family like props in a film production, and I believe that Jeremy complained about this to somebody or other, but his complaint got nowhere...
It's disgusting!!!
If true it’s disgusting.
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Unfortunately, no, since there exists an official record of a large number of crime scene photographs which the COLP investigation did not reproduce...
There also existed a photograph of DC 'Mick' Clark on the roof of whf (after the shootings) with a banner plastered on the rooof declaring, 'MICK WAS HERE'...
Certainly you may have been told such, but we both know that being told such does NOT constitute proof of such. I will however, accept that certain crime scene picture weren't reproduced, more likely because they weren't needed.......................I will take this moment to completely reassure you and all members here, that I knew DC "Mick" Clark personally. I can vouch for the fact that he never stood on ANY roof waving ANY banner. I think someone has been having you on, Mike. Where do you think, in all that mayhem and horror, anyone would have found time to A) look for suitable material to make a banner B) locate liquid to write the words? I know the police need to destress after such an incident, but there's a time and place. The murder scene at WHF was neither.
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Certainly you may have been told such, but we both know that being told such does NOT constitute proof of such. I will however, accept that certain crime scene picture weren't reproduced, more likely because they weren't needed.......................I will take this moment to completely reassure you and all members here, that I knew DC "Mick" Clark personally. I can vouch for the fact that he never stood on ANY roof waving ANY banner. I think someone has been having you on, Mike. Where do you think, in all that mayhem and horror, anyone would have found time to A) look for suitable material to make a banner B) locate liquid to write the words? I know the police need to destress after such an incident, but there's a time and place. The murder scene at WHF was neither.
Well said Jane, another myth/lie bustered, disgusting to tell such untruths.
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Certainly you may have been told such, but we both know that being told such does NOT constitute proof of such. I will however, accept that certain crime scene picture weren't reproduced, more likely because they weren't needed.......................I will take this moment to completely reassure you and all members here, that I knew DC "Mick" Clark personally. I can vouch for the fact that he never stood on ANY roof waving ANY banner. I think someone has been having you on, Mike. Where do you think, in all that mayhem and horror, anyone would have found time to A) look for suitable material to make a banner B) locate liquid to write the words? I know the police need to destress after such an incident, but there's a time and place. The murder scene at WHF was neither.
I don't believe DC Clarke was on the roof neither do I believe you knew DC Clark. You have a habit of claiming personal connections to witnesses involved and they just so happen to tell you things that support your current position but contradict your previous position.
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I don't believe DC Clarke was on the roof neither do I believe you knew DC Clark. You have a habit of claiming personal connections to witnesses involved and they just so happen to tell you things that support your current position but contradict your previous position.
DC 'Mick' Clark was certainly on the roof with his banner, I have had sight of the actual photograph. so I know this to be true...
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DC 'Mick' Clark was certainly on the roof with his banner, I have had sight of the actual photograph. so I know this to be true...
But I don't. Nor do I believe you've seen him, or anyone else for that matter, behaving in such a disgusting fashion ie taking time out from their duties at the biggest and most serious crime scene Essex has ever known, to create a comedy scenario for their personal use. I don't believe they -or anyone else- would be so disrespectful...................on the other hand I believe you enjoy a wind up.
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Talking about poo, look who’s floatered back with a turd again. ;D ;D ;D
That is a rather off-putting way to state your presence on the forum Justice. ;D
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Many crime scene photographs were not reproduced by the COLPinvestigators because they contained images where police officers were caught on camera posing with the bodies of victims, or in Jeremy's own words, the cops treated the bodies of his family like props in a film production, and I believe that Jeremy complained about this to somebody or other, but his complaint got nowhere...
It's disgusting!!!
So you only have Jeremy's word for it?
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But I don't. Nor do I believe you've seen him, or anyone else for that matter, behaving in such a disgusting fashion ie taking time out from their duties at the biggest and most serious crime scene Essex has ever known, to create a comedy scenario for their personal use. I don't believe they -or anyone else- would be so disrespectful...................on the other hand I believe you enjoy a wind up.
'Mick' Clarke was definately on the roof at whf with his banner...
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Wasn't this documented in 2002 ?
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'Mick' Clarke was definately on the roof at whf with his banner...
What did the banner say Mike ?
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But I don't. Nor do I believe you've seen him, or anyone else for that matter, behaving in such a disgusting fashion ie taking time out from their duties at the biggest and most serious crime scene Essex has ever known, to create a comedy scenario for their personal use. I don't believe they -or anyone else- would be so disrespectful...................on the other hand I believe you enjoy a wind up.
There were some disrespectful and flippant photographs. There are also frames removed and destroyed in breach of police protocols, without proper explanation.
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There were some disrespectful and flippant photographs. There are also frames removed and destroyed in breach of police protocols, without proper explanation.
If so Neil it’s totally uncalled for, I know you have touched on this before, it would hurt any normal family member who loved his parents, but from a murderer who tried to pedal nude photos of his deceased sister and someone who hatered his parents, he doesn’t have the same feelings as us. The only thing he would use this for is self pity.
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There were some disrespectful and flippant photographs. There are also frames removed and destroyed in breach of police protocols, without proper explanation.
As I understand it, they didn't involve posing with the bodies of the victims?
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JB's never shown self-pity. He's been too engrossed and knee-deep in paperwork for the past years to even think about himself.
Pity a few posters didn't look to themselves before accusing others from suffering -----bi-polar,schizophrenia,personality disorder,mental unbalance,disorder,depression and other disabilities.
I kid you not,it's been said that I have all these disorders.
No prizes for guessing who the poster of such nonsense is ::) Seriously sick !!
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how did clarke get onto the roof,was there a skylight built into the roof that he climbed through,or did he use a ladder ,also what part of the roof was he on .whf is a big place with a large amount of roof area.finally what did he gain by his actions and would other officers have allowed him to be so disrespectful.i dont think any officer who has taken the queens oath would act in such a manner.would love to see the actual photo
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JB's never shown self-pity. He's been too engrossed and knee-deep in paperwork for the past years to even think about himself.
Pity a few posters didn't look to themselves before accusing others from suffering -----bi-polar,schizophrenia,personality disorder,mental unbalance,disorder,depression and other disabilities.
I kid you not,it's been said that I have all these disorders.
No prizes for guessing who the poster of such nonsense is ::) Seriously sick !!
Seriously? ::)
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JB's never shown self-pity. He's been too engrossed and knee-deep in paperwork for the past years to even think about himself.
Pity a few posters didn't look to themselves before accusing others from suffering -----bi-polar,schizophrenia,personality disorder,mental unbalance,disorder,depression and other disabilities.
I kid you not,it's been said that I have all these disorders.
No prizes for guessing who the poster of such nonsense is ::) Seriously sick !!
Good grief Lookout you would be on some right medication, you would want a suit case to go to chemist with that lot. ??? ???
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how did clarke get onto the roof,was there a skylight built into the roof that he climbed through,or did he use a ladder ,also what part of the roof was he on .whf is a big place with a large amount of roof area.finally what did he gain by his actions and would other officers have allowed him to be so disrespectful.i dont think any officer who has taken the queens oath would act in such a manner.would love to see the actual photo
..................and from where did he acquire material (a stolen sheet?)/cardboard/metal large enough to accommodate the legend "MICK WAS HERE", AND the liquid (stolen paint?) to write it large enough to be seen in a photograph taken from the ground. Surely such pictures could only have been taken during daylight hours. Wasn't it lucky no one was about.
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how did clarke get onto the roof,was there a skylight built into the roof that he climbed through,or did he use a ladder ,also what part of the roof was he on .whf is a big place with a large amount of roof area.finally what did he gain by his actions and would other officers have allowed him to be so disrespectful.i dont think any officer who has taken the queens oath would act in such a manner.would love to see the actual photo
You wouldn’t get me up there Sami, unless it’s a flat roof, what would be the point?
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Seriously? ::)
Yes Caroline.
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You wouldn’t get me up there Sami, unless it’s a flat roof, what would be the point?
good points justice and jane.what would be the point and where did clarke get all the materials from. ;)
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..................and from where did he acquire material (a stolen sheet?)/cardboard/metal large enough to accommodate the legend "MICK WAS HERE", AND the liquid (stolen paint?) to write it large enough to be seen in a photograph taken from the ground. Surely such pictures could only have been taken during daylight hours. Wasn't it lucky no one was about.
How did they get the picture? Did Barretts do a fly by?
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How did tey egt the picture? Did Barretts do a fly by?
Yeah, the man from Barretts was up in the helicopter trailing the Barrett Home banner. It was THIS banner police took pictures of.
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:)) :)) :)) :))
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:)) :)) :)) :))
Careful, Sami. No more cardiacs, please ;D ;D ;D
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Careful, Sami. No more cardiacs, please ;D ;D ;D
cant help it jane ,the humour on here is fantastic wonderful forum.any time one is feeling low just read a few posts and instantly it cheers you up. :)
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How did they get the picture? Did Barretts do a fly by?
A police helicopter was involved.
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As I understand it, they didn't involve posing with the bodies of the victims?
Not in the way that has been suggested, but I understand bodies may have been visible in one of the photos.
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A police helicopter was involved.
Do we have confirmation of this though? As for the posing with bodies, wasn't it more to do with posing with a page 3 newspaper at the scene? Still wrong but nothing like as bad as posing with bodies.
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Not in the way that has been suggested, but I understand bodies may have been visible in one of the photos.
Oh OK, just asked this - posts must have crossed. Still a bit sick but not quite as bad as has been suggested.
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Do we have confirmation of this though? As for the posing with bodies, wasn't it more to do with posing with a page 3 newspaper at the scene? Still wrong but nothing like as bad as posing with bodies.
Yes.
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Oh OK, just asked this - posts must have crossed. Still a bit sick but not quite as bad as has been suggested.
I agree.
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Yes.
Did the photograph make the newspapers?
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Did the photograph make the newspapers?
No.
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Not in the way that has been suggested, but I understand bodies may have been visible in one of the photos.
So are you happy to confirm that NO photographs were taken of Sheila in a semi nude state, and that any inclusion of bodies was accidental?
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So are you happy to confirm that NO photographs were taken of Sheila in a semi nude state, and that any inclusion of bodies was accidental?
I am not in a position to confirm that. I only know about the photographs now available to the defence. There are others which have not been disclosed and which Essex Police claim have been destroyed, without giving any satisfactory explanation for the destruction of the negatives.
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I am not in a position to confirm that. I only know about the photographs now available to the defence. There are others which have not been disclosed and which Essex Police claim have been destroyed, without giving any satisfactory explanation for the destruction of the negatives.
It looks, then, as if it's safe to conclude that no such pictures existed. I fail to see why any explanation would have been necessary for their destruction, unless it was a case of issuing a statement saying "EP have destroyed X number of inappropriate and disrespectful pictures of victims of the WHF massacre"
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Like Pamela Boutflour said, her sister June Bamber told her that Sheila had been behaving strangely and June intended to bring Sheila and the children around for tea on the day of the tragedy so that Pamela could assess her more closely! But it never transpired because by the early hours of the next morning, Sheila had shot and killed four members of her family. Sheila herself remained barely alive until 9.13am, when she was shot dead on the bedroom floor!!!
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Like Pamela Boutflour said, her sister June Bamber told her that Sheila had been behaving strangely and June intended to bring Sheila and the children around for tea on the day of the tragedy so that Pamela could assess her more closely! But it never transpired because by the early hours of the next morning, Sheila had shot and killed four members of her family. Sheila herself remained barely alive until 9.13am, when she was shot dead on the bedroom floor!!!
Actually Mike, I can't find anywhere in her statement where Pam claims June told her that Sheila was "acting strangely". Rather, she is concerned by Sheila's lack of interest in the children and household duties. I get no impression that June suggested that Pam "could assess her more closely", more that she'd like to hear what Pam thought. It certainly didn't appear to be June's intention to "bring Sheila round..............for June to assess her". The invitation to tea appears to have come from Pam. Naturally, I don't believe that Sheila wandered round for several hours -in a semi-dead state- until police shot her, however I MIGHT have been willing to accept, that had she been pointing a gun at them, they shot her in the line of duty...................were it not for the position of the two shots.
The thought has just occurred to me, that you may have inadvertently done exactly what you claim police do, ie you've rewritten a WS using your own words/using words you thought the original words meant. I can see how easy -TEMPTING!- it would be, especially with an inarticulate witness. I'd find it hugely difficult -impossible?- not to correct what they'd said in order to clarify the meaning/make sense of their words.
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Actually Mike, I can't find anywhere in her statement where Pam claims June told her that Sheila was "acting strangely". Rather, she is concerned by Sheila's lack of interest in the children and household duties. I get no impression that June suggested that Pam "could assess her more closely", more that she'd like to hear what Pam thought. It certainly didn't appear to be June's intention to "bring Sheila round..............for June to assess her". The invitation to tea appears to have come from Pam. Naturally, I don't believe that Sheila wandered round for several hours -in a semi-dead state- until police shot her, however I MIGHT have been willing to accept, that had she been pointing a gun at them, they shot her in the line of duty...................were it not for the position of the two shots.
The thought has just occurred to me, that you may have inadvertently done exactly what you claim police do, ie you've rewritten a WS using your own words/using words you thought the original words meant. I can see how easy -TEMPTING!- it would be, especially with an inarticulate witness. I'd find it hugely difficult -impossible?- not to correct what they'd said in order to clarify the meaning/make sense of their words.
Good post Jane, totally agree. I read the statement as June being concerned about Sheila and simply saying to Pam 'see what you think'?
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Actually Mike, I can't find anywhere in her statement where Pam claims June told her that Sheila was "acting strangely". Rather, she is concerned by Sheila's lack of interest in the children and household duties. I get no impression that June suggested that Pam "could assess her more closely", more that she'd like to hear what Pam thought. It certainly didn't appear to be June's intention to "bring Sheila round..............for June to assess her". The invitation to tea appears to have come from Pam. Naturally, I don't believe that Sheila wandered round for several hours -in a semi-dead state- until police shot her, however I MIGHT have been willing to accept, that had she been pointing a gun at them, they shot her in the line of duty...................were it not for the position of the two shots.
The thought has just occurred to me, that you may have inadvertently done exactly what you claim police do, ie you've rewritten a WS using your own words/using words you thought the original words meant. I can see how easy -TEMPTING!- it would be, especially with an inarticulate witness. I'd find it hugely difficult -impossible?- not to correct what they'd said in order to clarify the meaning/make sense of their words.
Great post as usual Jane. To the point and very articulate, you remind me of me ;D ;D ;D
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It looks, then, as if it's safe to conclude that no such pictures existed. I fail to see why any explanation would have been necessary for their destruction, unless it was a case of issuing a statement saying "EP have destroyed X number of inappropriate and disrespectful pictures of victims of the WHF massacre"
Police protocols dictated that no negative should be removed from the strips of ten used. In this case quite a few have been physically removed by cutting the strips. The explanation given was that the frames removed were unexposed. However, that is not a valid reason for removing them and there would be no benefit in doing so. It is at the very least suspicious and leads to the suggestion that the removed frames showed things which the police might have found embarrassing.
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Police protocols dictated that no negative should be removed from the strips of ten used. In this case quite a few have been physically roved by cutting the strips. The explanation given was that the frames removed were unexposed. However, that is not a valid reason for removing them and there would be no benefit in doing so. It is at the very least suspicious and leads to the suggestion that the removed frames showed things which the police might have found embarrassing.
That being the case, I don't see why now, that they don't release them (if they still have them) or admit to their existence. Many of the people involved are either dead or retired. It would explain why the police are a bit cagey at times but it certainly wouldn't lead to an appeal for Bamber. Also, Jeremy told Mike that EP posed with the bodies and this is clearly not true and would seem like an attempt to exaggerate what actually happened. An innocent man wouldn't need to do that.