Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Adam on October 22, 2017, 12:11:PM
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It was impossible for the relatives to fabricate the silencer working alone.
The other option is the police fabricated the silencer and then asked the relatives to pretend they found it. This is a strange theory as the police didn't need the relatives to do this for them.
The disadvantages are -
The relatives may refuse.
The relatives may refuse & then report the approach.
The police had to persuade several relatives rather than just one.
One or all relatives may crack under pressure pre trial.
One or all relatives may crack at trial.
It was putting innocent people into a situation they had never been in before.
The frame was just after the massacre. The police could say they found the silencer themselves.
The police frame was apparently moral corruption. Involving innocent relatives defeats this theory.
The police already had Sheila's blood. So didn't need the relatives.
The police already had aga photos. So didn't need the relatives.
The police already had a silencer. So didn't need the relatives.
It was making the police frame 10x riskier. Failure results in multiple job loses, pension loses & criminal procedings.
It meant the police had to assist the relatives to create false WS.
Evidence was still being processed straight after the massacre. A frame attempt may not be needed.
Evidence was still being processed. It may show Bamber was innocent. The police would have to ask the relatives to back track.
There are no other examples of the police successfully asking outside individuals to pretend they found something.
It was the police's idea. So no reason for the fabrication to leave EP.
The police did not need information from the relatives. They knew Sheila received a contact shot & that the rifle end had no blood.
No one would dispute that the police had found a silencer. They were inside WHF for a long period.
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Something had to be fabricated.EP were in it up to their necks.
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It was impossible for the relatives to fabricate the silencer working alone.
The other option is the police fabricated the silencer and then asked the relatives to pretend they found it. This is a strange theory as the police didn't need the relatives to do this for them.
The disadvantages are -
The disadvantages of this scenario are irrelevant because its a completely false narrative. The police obtained blood samples from the relatives to see if it matched the blood in the silencer. It can be safely deduced that the police were actually suspecting the relatives of foul play rather than helping them.
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The disadvantages of this scenario are irrelevant because its a completely false narrative. The police obtained blood samples from the relatives to see if it matched the blood in the silencer. It can be safely deduced that the police were actually suspecting the relatives of foul play rather than helping them.
Rubbish! The relatives found the silencer so would have to be eliminated, that doesn't mean the police 'suspected' them of anything.
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I thought it was SJ who'd first found the silencer-----SBJ/1 ? On the morning of the 7th ?
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I thought it was SJ who'd first found the silencer-----SBJ/1 ? On the morning of the 7th ?
Did he? The silencer issue is very confusing. It seems to have had an exciting life - in and out of houses, labs, etc.
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The disadvantages of this scenario are irrelevant because its a completely false narrative. The police obtained blood samples from the relatives to see if it matched the blood in the silencer. It can be safely deduced that the police were actually suspecting the relatives of foul play rather than helping them.
That is very interesting. I can't say they suspected foul play, but they must have considered the possibility of blood from one of the relatives getting on the silencer somehow.
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Rubbish! The relatives found the silencer so would have to be eliminated, that doesn't mean the police 'suspected' them of anything.
::)
Who planted the blood In your noble cause conspiracy theory?
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That is very interesting. I can't say they suspected foul play, but they must have considered the possibility of blood from one of the relatives getting on the silencer somehow.
Now I wonder who had the same blood group as Sheila ?? Down to the enzymes.
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It was impossible for the relatives to fabricate the silencer without police assistance. See below.
The police didn't need the relatives to fabricate the silencer.
However the other option is the police fabricated the silencer. Then asked the relatives to pretend they found it & committ forgery & perjury. This thread post shows this is too ridiculous to comtemplate.
So what happened ?
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They were law abiding citizens.
They would have to have the crazy idea in the first place.
If caught they could be put in prison.
If caught, a rich Bamber could sue.
If caught, a rich Bamber could be their enemy regarding farm and land business.
They had to agree together & ensure everyone's account matched.
If one relative cracked under pressure, everything falls apart.
The police & defence lawyers will put pressure on each relative regarding their accounts.
None of them had attempted anything like this before.
They were already wealthy.
They did not know whether other evidence showed Bamber was innocent.
Taff Jones was not co operating with them & would have had a negative reaction to the silencer.
A fabrication attempt was a 1 in a million shot.
They may not know about human back splatter.
They did not know Sheila's blood type.
They did not know Sheila's arm lenght.
They did not know if Sheila received a contact shot.
They did not know if the rifle nozzle already had back splatter.
They would assume the rifle nozzle already had back splatter on as 25 shots had been fired into 5 people from close range.
They did not know how to correctly put blood into the silencer baffles.
They did not know how to scratch the aga to replicate a kitchen fight.
They did not know if crime scene photos already showed the aga without scratches on.
They did not know if the police had already checked the silencers at WHF for blood.
The fabrication was a huge life term committment. Creating false WS's & perjury.
Even if successful with the fabrication, it may not result in a conviction.
Bamber had already said he left the rifle at WHF without the silencer on.
It is possible Bamber would go out to shoot rabbits without a silencer attached.
They did not have time to plan & execute this as quickly as they did.
If the fabrication attempt failed & became public knowledge, they would be labelled as callous criminals throughout the nation & local community.
They were relying on one piece of false evidence to try to convict a perhaps innocent man of killing 5 members of his family.
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Now I wonder who had the same blood group as Sheila ?? Down to the enzymes.
Robert Boutflour apparently, but he couldn't have known that at the time.
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It was impossible for the relatives to fabricate the silencer without police assistance. See below.
See what below? a list of rubbish you've made up?
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See what below? a list of rubbish you've made up?
Great input as usual.
It was impossible for the relatives to fabricate the silencer without police assistance.
Unless you want to explain how they could.
Thought not.
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Great input as usual.
It was impossible for the relatives to fabricate the silencer without police assistance.
Unless you want to explain how they could.
Thought not.
They could do it actually, but I'm not going to suggest they did.
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Robert Boutflour apparently, but he couldn't have known that at the time.
He was a Mason ! Don't they know everything before anyone else does ?? Pillar of the community,koff koff.
Do you know what ? This case to me and no doubt millions of others who keep abreast of Jeremy's Blogs,particularly his latest marking the " anniversary " of his last appeal 15 years ago,,,is simply heartbreaking !!
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They could do it actually, but I'm not going to suggest they did.
Tell me how they could. Without police assistance.
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Kaldin,can I ask you to go into Bambertweets and read what Jeremy has to say on his last appeal,please.
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Tell me how they could. Without police assistance.
Drop blood inside the moderator, smear a bit on the outside, go to the farm and scrape it against the underside of the mantelpiece.
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Kaldin,can I ask you to go into Bambertweets and read what Jeremy has to say on his last appeal,please.
OK. What am I looking for exactly?
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Drop blood inside the moderator, smear a bit on the outside, go to the farm and scrape it against the underside of the mantelpiece.
My list in reply 9 has 11 questions the relatives needed answers to. Which they could only get from the police.
Then there are the huge & obvious disadvantages if the attempt failed or even succeeded.
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Kaldin,can I ask you to go to Bambertweets to read what Jeremy says about his last appeal,please ?
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Kaldin,can I ask you to go to Bambertweets to read what Jeremy says about his last appeal,please ?
I'm there now. What am I looking for?
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My list in reply 9 has 10 questions the relatives needed answers to. Which they could only get from the police.
Then there are the huge & obvious disadvantages if the attempt failed or even succeeded.
You asked how they could have done it without the help of the police, and I told you.
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In short the relatives needed answers regarding -
Contact shots during the massacre.
Blood already on rifle nozzle.
Photos of aga.
Lenght of rifle with silencer.
Lenght of Sheila's arms.
Other evidence showing guilt/innocence.
Police checks already carried out on silencers.
Where to get Sheila's blood.
How to insert Sheila's blood.
If unable to get Sheila's blood, what was her blood type.
How to effectivly scrape the aga to replicate a scrape during a random fight.
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You asked how they could have done it without the help of the police, and I told you.
You're right.
Very gung ho of the relatives. Charging in & hopeing for the best with at least 11 variables that could go against them.
If unsuccessful, not to worry. They could only be put in prison & any ongoing investigation into Bamber would collapse.
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Kaldin,can I ask you to go to Bambertweets to read what Jeremy says about his last appeal,please ?
I read it. He appears to be saying that he has enough evidence now to get out of jail. Perhaps he has, but it has to be better than the evidence of the police logs and the photo of "running blood".
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OK. What am I looking for exactly?
If you google Bambertweets you'll see the heading of 15 years since his last appeal,just highlight the blog. It's easy enough to find and will give you an insight into red-tape and bureaucracy that swamps our justice system.Also the unfairness and as JB points out," secrets ".
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You're right.
Very gung ho of the relatives. Charging in & hopeing for the best with at least 10 variables that could go against them.
If unsuccessful, not to worry. They could only be put in prison & any ongoing investigation into Bamber would collapse.
I'm not saying they did it, I'm merely replying to your question as to how they could have done it.
I think it would require a very devious and daring mind to come up with such a plan. Having failed to persuade the police that Sheila couldn't have done it, they'd need something more concrete than that, but how someone would come up with the idea of using a silencer to frame Jeremy is not something I could imagine.
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I read it. He appears to be saying that he has enough evidence now to get out of jail. Perhaps he has, but it has to be better than the evidence of the police logs and the photo of "running blood".
I can " feel " his confidence in telling the truth HIS WAY !!
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If you google Bambertweets you'll see the heading of 15 years since his last appeal,just highlight the blog. It's easy enough to find and will give you an insight into red-tape and bureaucracy that swamps our justice system.Also the unfairness and as JB points out," secrets ".
I read it lookout, and I replied to you a few posts ago.
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For far too long we've had old fogies/farts running the system. Set in their ways without looking at the bigger picture,so young blood is what's needed here with more up to date brains.
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I'm not saying they did it, I'm merely replying to your question as to how they could have done it.
I think it would require a very devious and daring mind to come up with such a plan. Having failed to persuade the police that Sheila couldn't have done it, they'd need something more concrete than that, but how someone would come up with the idea of using a silencer to frame Jeremy is not something I could imagine.
The police after fabricating a silencer directly after the massacre, didn't need to ask the relatives to pretend they found it. So didn't.
The relatives couldn't fabricate the silencer alone. So didn't.
I can't work out how Sheila's blood and the aga paint got into the silencer via a frame.
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After sifting through the case Mark Williams-Thomas has said " It's the most astonishing miscarriage of justice he's come across ".
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For far too long we've had old fogies/farts running the system. Set in their ways without looking at the bigger picture,so young blood is what's needed here with more up to date brains.
If he really has got proper evidence this time, it'll take ages before there's even a possibility of another appeal, so we'll have to wait. I have to say though that so far, the evidence posted on his blogs isn't really very convincing.
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The police after fabricating a silencer directly after the massacre, didn't need to ask the relatives to pretend they found it. So didn't.
The relatives couldn't fabricate the silencer alone. So didn't.
I can't work out how Sheila's blood and the aga paint got into the silencer via a frame.
They could have fabricated the silencer evidence - I just told you how.
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If he really has got proper evidence this time, it'll take ages before there's even a possibility of another appeal, so we'll have to wait. I have to say though that so far, the evidence posted on his blogs isn't really very convincing.
It would seem to be to those who know about MOJ's ?
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We haven't got what MWT has in front of him,do we ? For him to remark and actually speak of a MOJ,then as an investigator who caught Savill out,then we have to go along with him.?
Though it's your prerogative if you don't.
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There are rich pickings with this case !
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They could have fabricated the silencer evidence - I just told you how.
So you're view is it is more likely the relatives fabricated the silencer. Without police information & assistance on 11 aspects.
Talk about a 1 in million shot. But it worked. Which was bad luck for Bamber.
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That latest blog was Part 1. Maybe Part 2 which might be in December and which marks the anniversary of his actual appeal,will throw up further evidence--------we'll have to wait and see.
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So you're view is it is more likely the relatives fabricated the silencer. Without police information & assistance on 11 aspects.
Talk about a 1 in million shot. But it worked. Which was bad luck for Bamber.
There's lying and there's being economical with the truth !!
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So you're view is it is more likely the relatives fabricated the silencer. Without police information & assistance on 11 aspects.
Talk about a 1 in million shot. But it worked. Which was bad luck for Bamber.
I didn't say it was "more likely", I said they could have done it without police assistance.
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I didn't say it was "more likely", I said they could have done it without police assistance.
Being realistic, you know the relatives didn't fabricate the silencer alone. Not knowing 11 vital variables.
It was much too risky & the punishment if unsuccessful much too high.
You are just saying they could have to keep you're apparent 'on the fence' stance alive.
If the relatives couldn't fabricate the silencer alone, and the police didn't need the relatives to pretend they found it, how was the silencer fabricated ?
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Being realistic, you know the relatives didn't fabricate the silencer alone. Not knowing 11 vital variables.
It was much too risky & the punishment if unsuccessful much too high.
You are just saying they could have to keep you're apparent 'on the fence' stance alive.
If the relatives couldn't fabricate the silencer alone, and the police didn't need the relatives to pretend they found it, how was the silencer fabricated ?
I'm saying they could have physically done it because you denied that they could have, and that's not right.
I told you how they could have done it - why are you not addressing that?
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In short the relatives needed answers regarding -
Contact shots during the massacre.
Blood already on rifle nozzle.
Photos of aga.
Lenght of rifle with silencer.
Lenght of Sheila's arms.
Other evidence showing guilt/innocence.
Police checks already carried out on silencers.
Where to get Sheila's blood.
How to insert Sheila's blood.
If unable to get Sheila's blood, what was her blood type.
How to effectivly scrape the aga to replicate a scrape during a random fight.
Do you think the relatives between them would not have decided they needed this information ?
It was a huge illegal frame they were attempting. With a huge punishment if unsuccessful.
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Do you think the relatives between them would not have decided they needed this information ?
It was a huge illegal frame they were attempting. With a huge punishment if unsuccessful.
Murdering five people also carries a huge punishment, but you don't have a problem with Jeremy doing that.
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Do you think the relatives between them would not have decided they needed this information ?
It was a huge illegal frame they were attempting. With a huge punishment if unsuccessful.
Sheila's blood was not necessarily required. It could have been any blood.
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Murdering five people also carries a huge punishment, but you don't have a problem with Jeremy doing that.
I don't & am happy to answer questions.
You're non answer to my last question means you do not believe the relatives would have made a fabrication attempt without some or all of the 11 vital pieces of information.
But you don't want to say this.
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Sheila's blood was not necessarily required. It could have been any blood.
So they put any blood in the silencer ? Then gave the silencer to the police.
Lucky for them it came back as Sheila's blood.
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I don't & am happy to answer questions.
You're non answer to my last question means you do not believe the relatives would have made a fabrication attempt without some or all of the 11 vital pieces of information.
But you don't want to say this.
I've already said it's unlikely. However, they could have physically done it, which is what you keep denying.
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So they put any blood in the silencer ? Then gave the silencer to the police.
Lucky for them it came back as Sheila's blood.
It came back with elements of Sheila's blood, yes. However, even if it had not, the police would still have found it very odd that Sheila would shoot everyone else, take the moderator off and put in in the cupboard before shooting herself.
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I've already said it's unlikely. However, they could have physically done it, which is what you keep denying.
Ok. They could have attempted it without asking the police any of the 11 questions.
The chance of succeeding in that instance was less than 1%. A huge risk with a huge punishment if unsuccessful.
You believe it is 'unlikely' they attempted this.
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Ok. They could have attempted it without asking the police any of the 11 questions.
The chance of succeeding in that instance was less than 1%. A huge risk for such a huge punishment.
You believe it is 'unlikely' they attempted this.
Yes, and I've said why. I think it would take a very devious mind to think up such a plan.
The chance of succeeding wouldn't have been that low. They probably wouldn't have known about all the enzymes in blood and all that stuff.
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Yes, and I've said why. I think it would take a very devious mind to think up such a plan.
The chance of succeeding wouldn't have been that low. They probably wouldn't have known about all the enzymes in blood and all that stuff.
In my view they could have attempted point 11 themselves. However points 1 - 10 were essential to know & only the police could tell them.
1) Contact shots during the massacre.
2) Blood already on rifle nozzle.
3) Photos of aga.
4) Lenght of rifle with silencer.
5) Lenght of Sheila's arms.
6) Other evidence showing guilt/innocence.
7) Police checks already carried out on silencers.
8 Where to get Sheila's blood.
9) How to insert Sheila's blood.
10) If unable to get Sheila's blood, what was her blood type.
11) How to effectivly scrape the aga to replicate a scrape during a random fight.
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They could probably guess there had been some contact shots, particularly to Sheila.
What's that about blood on the gun nozzle?
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To find out all of the above so quickly & then instantly hand in the silencer would not happen. It would create too much suspision.
Taff Jones wasn't engaging with them either.
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They could probably guess there had been some contact shots, particularly to Sheila.
What's that about blood on the gun nozzle?
If the massacre was committed without the silencer, there would be blood on the rifle nozzle.
Providing there were contact shots.
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If the massacre was committed without the silencer, there would be blood on the rifle nozzle. Providing there were contact shots.
I thought you were saying there was blood on it? Do you mean the absence of blood?
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I thought you were saying there was blood on it? Do you mean the absence of blood?
The relatives needed to know -
Were there contact shots.
Was there already blood on the rifle nozzle from the contact shots.
Two 'yes' answers to these two questions & the silencer fabrication attempt can't go ahead.
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The relatives needed to know -
Were there contact shots.
Was there already blood on the rifle nozzle from the contact shots.
Two 'yes' answers to these two questions & the silencer fabrication attempt can't go ahead.
I thought you said they didn't know there were contact shots.
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I thought you said they didn't know there were contact shots.
They wouldn't know any of my 11 points if they attempted the silencer fabrication by themselves.
They would be relying on getting very lucky 11 times. Unlucky once & everything falls apart.
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They wouldn't know any of my 11 points if they attempted the silencer fabrication by themselves.
They would be relying on getting very lucky 11 times. Unlucky once & everything falls apart.
This discussion is going round and round. I've said that they could have done, but I think it's unlikely.
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This discussion is going round and round. I've said that they could have done, but I think it's unlikely.
'Unlikely' is a soft word when relatives had to rely on 11 things they had no control over or knowledge about, going their way. Espescially as the punishment of a failed frame attempt was so great.
But appreciate it is the best word I will get from a supporter.