Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Adam on August 27, 2016, 10:30:AM
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Did Bamber take the rifle out of the gun cupboard ? - Yes.
Is it not polite and normal to put something back where you found it in someone else's house ? - Yes.
With the rifle not having the silencer on, would this have made it easier to put back into the gun cupboard, or even the back into the rifle's case ? - Yes.
Were Neville and June awake and downstairs when Bamber returned from rabbit hunting and dumped the rifle ? - Yes.
Did Neville or June tell Bamber to put the rifle back into the gun cupboard ? - No.
Had Bamber just spent several minutes fetching, loading and chambering the rifle, then looking for rabbits ? - Yes.
After spending several minutes doing all that, how much extra time would it have taken to put the rifle back into the gun cupboard where he got it from ? - 10 seconds.
With it being early and Neville and June still downstairs, would they both have seen something as big as the rifle which was sprawled out near to them ? - Yes.
Were Neville or June capable of spending 10 seconds putting the rifle away - Yes.
Did Neville and June do this ? - No.
Did Bamber say Neville was quite careful with rifles inside WHF ? - Yes.
Were Sheila and two 6 year old boys staying at WHF ? - Yes.
Would Neville and June then have then been more careful than usual with rifles ? - Yes.
After Bamber, Neville and June failed to put the rifle back before going to bed, would Neville later have the chance to do this while awake with an agitated Sheila ? - Yes.
With Sheila eventually being given and taking the unexpected opportunity to take a fully loaded available rifle, is this the reason Neville phoned Bamber ? - Yes, although there were 40 reasons not to.
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Did Bamber take the rifle out of the gun cupboard ? - Yes.
Is it not polite and normal to put something back where you found it in someone else's house ? - Yes.
With the rifle not having the silencer on, would this have made it easier to put back into the gun cupboard, or even the back into the rifle's case ? - Yes.
Were Neville and June awake and downstairs when Bamber returned from rabbit hunting and dumped the rifle ? - Yes.
Did Neville or June tell Bamber to put the rifle back into the gun cupboard ? - No.
Had Bamber just spent several minutes fetching, loading and chambering the rifle, then looking for rabbits ? - Yes.
After spending several minutes doing all that, how much extra time would it have taken to put the rifle back into the gun cupboard where he got it from ? - 10 seconds.
With it being early and Neville and June still downstairs, would they both have seen something as big as the rifle which was sprawled out near to them ? - Yes.
Were Neville or June capable of spending 10 seconds putting the rifle away - Yes.
Did Neville and June do this ? - No.
Did Bamber say Neville was quite careful with rifles inside WHF ? - Yes.
Were Sheila and two 6 year old boys staying at WHF ? - Yes.
Would Neville and June then have then been more careful than usual with rifles ? - Yes.
After Bamber, Neville and June failed to put the rifle back before going to bed, would Neville later have the chance to do this while awake with an agitated Sheila ? - Yes.
With Sheila eventually being given and taking the unexpected opportunity to take a fully loaded available rifle, is this the reason Neville phoned Bamber ? - Yes, although there were 40 reasons not to.
Adam this is just embarrassing. It's almost as bad as Mikes video
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Adam this is just embarrassing. It's almost as bad as Mikes video
It's just that there are over ten reasons and opportunities for the rifle to end up back in the gun cupboard. After Bamber decided to errr shoot rabbits.
But we are lead to believe it wasn't put away and Sheila errr killed 5 people with it.
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Or maybe the rifle was unloaded and put away by Neville or June.
Sheila going to the gun cupboard at 3am, loading and putting the silencer on. Neville not noticing and then phoning Bamber when seeing Sheila with the rifle.
No one knows what happened after Bamber left WHF.
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Bamber has always supported the idea that Sheila took the fully loaded rifle from where he left it.
Probably aware he had to suggest Sheila had an open goal esq opportinity. Sheila going to the gun cupboard is much less likely.
However trying to suggest Sheila had this big opportunity of a rifle sprawled around in open sight creates it's own big doubts, as the thread post shows.
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Bamber has always supported the idea that Sheila took the fully loaded rifle from where he left it.
Probably aware he had to suggest Sheila had an open goal esq opportinity. Sheila going to the gun cupboard is much less likely.
However trying to suggest Sheila had this big opportunity of a rifle sprawled around in open sight creates it's own big doubts, as the thread post shows.
Your arguments are silly. Two can play at that game However
Could Neville have put the gun back in the cupboard? YES
Did Sheila know there was guns on the farm? YES
Did Sheila know were the gun cupboard was? YES
Did the gun cupboard have a lock? NO
Had Sheila held a gun before? YES
Does this mean Sheila know one end of the gun from the other? YES
::)
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Was rifle put back in cupboard - Immaterial .
Could the rifle's telescopic sights be set by Sheila - No
Could JB have set them to a certain range whilst outside - Yes
Did Sheila know the rifle was a newish edition to family's guns. No. Sheila wasn't interested in guns, she preferred London life.
Would Sheila, in a psychotic state have picked up any gun such as the ones left on the stairs on her way to the kitchen - Yes.
For JB's story to hold any water he had to imply the rifle was left out with a fully loaded magazine, as he knew Sheila couldn't have loaded it herself....hence the bunny story! JB also thought it would only take 10/11 shots to kill all the family...this was big mistake! Sheila wouldn't have the first idea about reloading that particular rifle!
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Was rifle put back in cupboard - Immaterial .
Could the rifle's telescopic sights be set by Sheila - No
Could JB have set them to a certain range whilst outside - Yes
Did Sheila know the rifle was a newish edition to family's guns. No. Sheila wasn't interested in guns, she preferred London life.
Would Sheila, in a psychotic state have picked up any gun such as the ones left on the stairs on her way to the kitchen - Yes.
For JB's story to hold any water he had to imply the rifle was left out with a fully loaded magazine, as he knew Sheila couldn't have loaded it herself....hence the bunny story! JB also thought it would only take 10/11 shots to kill all the family...this was big mistake! Sheila wouldn't have the first idea about reloading that particular rifle!
Excellent point Romeo.
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Was rifle put back in cupboard - Immaterial .
Could the rifle's telescopic sights be set by Sheila - No
Could JB have set them to a certain range whilst outside - Yes
Did Sheila know the rifle was a newish edition to family's guns. No. Sheila wasn't interested in guns, she preferred London life.
Would Sheila, in a psychotic state have picked up any gun such as the ones left on the stairs on her way to the kitchen - Yes.
For JB's story to hold any water he had to imply the rifle was left out with a fully loaded magazine, as he knew Sheila couldn't have loaded it herself....hence the bunny story! JB also thought it would only take 10/11 shots to kill all the family...this was big mistake! Sheila wouldn't have the first idea about reloading that particular rifle!
good points romeo.also did sheila know how to load a magazine and chamber a round.'i doubt it'
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good points romeo.also did sheila know how to load a magazine and chamber a round.'i doubt it'
No.
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Was rifle put back in cupboard - Immaterial .
Could the rifle's telescopic sights be set by Sheila - No
Could JB have set them to a certain range whilst outside - Yes
Did Sheila know the rifle was a newish edition to family's guns. No. Sheila wasn't interested in guns, she preferred London life.
Would Sheila, in a psychotic state have picked up any gun such as the ones left on the stairs on her way to the kitchen - Yes.
For JB's story to hold any water he had to imply the rifle was left out with a fully loaded magazine, as he knew Sheila couldn't have loaded it herself....hence the bunny story! JB also thought it would only take 10/11 shots to kill all the family...this was big mistake! Sheila wouldn't have the first idea about reloading that particular rifle!
You have no evidence to justify these assumptions. There is no record anywhere of Sheila claiming ineptitude of using firearms.
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No.
Show evidence
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You have no evidence to justify these assumptions. There is no record anywhere of Sheila claiming ineptitude of using firearms.
they is also no record whatso ever of sheila having fired any firearms in her life.if you think there is 'show proof'
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Show evidence
Show evidence that you have access to crime scene pictures!
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You have no evidence to justify these assumptions. There is no record anywhere of Sheila claiming ineptitude of using firearms.
I don't know how to use a gun - guess how many times that crops up in a conversation? ::)
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they is also no record whatso ever of sheila having fired any firearms in her life.if you think there is 'show proof'
Absence of such evidence does not preclude her being able to use a gun.
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Show evidence that you have access to crime scene pictures!
Answering the question with another question to avoid answering is not evidence that Sheila could not chamber a rifle.
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Absence of such evidence does not preclude her being able to use a gun.
only you can come to that conclusion :)) :)) :)) :))
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Answering the question with another question to avoid answering is not evidence that Sheila could not chamber a rifle.
I haven't got a clue how to chamber a rifle and though not quite as obsessive about my hands as Sheila I doubt she would have touched one with a barge pole lest it cracked one of her nails.
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I haven't got a clue how to chamber a rifle and though not quite as obsessive about my hands as Sheila I doubt she would have touched one with a barge pole lest it cracked one of her nails.
I believe I have shown you this before. Its very simple
(http://i.makeagif.com/media/8-02-2016/l95b9M.gif)
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only you can come to that conclusion :)) :)) :)) :))
Really Sami? ::)
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Bayesian (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Bayesian)
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I haven't got a clue how to chamber a rifle and though not quite as obsessive about my hands as Sheila I doubt she would have touched one with a barge pole lest it cracked one of her nails.
Steve,there was a false nail found on the floor which must have taken some force to have come unstuck because the glue that is used to keep the nails secure is pretty lethal in adhering to surfaces.
I don't think it was ever mentioned as to which finger it came from,which would have been helpful.
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Answering the question with another question to avoid answering is not evidence that Sheila could not chamber a rifle.
You didn't ask a question
Answering the question with another question to avoid answering is not evidence that Sheila could not chamber a rifle.
Neither did I.
Answering the question with another question to avoid answering is not evidence that Sheila could not chamber a rifle.
However, fact remains that Sheila was NOT familiar with that rifle whether you wish to deny it or not.
As for the crime scene pictures you say you have, unless you can prove it, your claim is no more credible than there being a picture of Sheila on the bed with one shot to the throat.
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You have no evidence to justify these assumptions. There is no record anywhere of Sheila claiming ineptitude of using firearms.
Show me evidence Sheila was a brilliant shot!
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I believe I have shown you this before. Its very simple
(http://i.makeagif.com/media/8-02-2016/l95b9M.gif)
david its simple if one know about it.sheila like most people if given a rifle with a loaded magazine in it but no round in the chamber, would aim and pull the trigger than say its not working.one would have to know the concepts of a firearm.i dont believe sheila knew this
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The shootings were testimony that the shooter was unfamiliar with a rifle.
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Show me evidence Sheila was a brilliant shot!
there is none romeo.supporters tryed claiming a shootingparty holiday where sheila may have shot a firearm but it was disproved as sheila was a beater and not a shooter
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You didn't ask a question
I asked you to show evidence Sheila did not know how to chamber a rifle
However, fact remains that Sheila was NOT familiar with that rifle whether you wish to deny it or not.
On the contrary, The only person who could establish this as fact is Sheila herself. So its never going to happen
As for the crime scene pictures you say you have, unless you can prove it, your claim is no more credible than there being a picture of Sheila on the bed with one shot to the throat.
The absence of Hypostasis can been seen the photos already in the public domain.
If you don't find my claim credible it does not bother me, I don't have to justify myself to your satisfaction.
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Who could miss a shot at two feet away ?
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there is none romeo.supporters tryed claiming a shootingparty holiday where sheila may have shot a firearm but it was disproved as sheila was a beater and not a shooter
Yes Sami I knew this, June Bamber also told one of her relation's that she had seen JB trying to show Sheila how to use a gun, when questioned as to if Sheila did tried to shoot the gun....June said no she didn't!
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Steve,there was a false nail found on the floor which must have taken some force to have come unstuck because the glue that is used to keep the nails secure is pretty lethal in adhering to surfaces.
I don't think it was ever mentioned as to which finger it came from,which would have been helpful.
I think there was a false nail found in a sponge bag in the living room, but as there are no photos of that room at all we have to take Ann Eaton's word for it. There was a piece of red nail varnish in the kitchen which Peter Sutherst commented on(I think it was) but Sheila could have stubbed her toe when she was foraging for food as it's known she ate later than the others.
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Yes Sami I knew this, June Bamber also told one of her relation's that she had seen JB trying to show Sheila how to use a gun, when questioned as to if Sheila did tried to shoot the gun....June said no she didn't!
interestingly ,june who had seen guns at whf didnt know the correct word for magazine .she called it 'the thingy'.i think her words were 'jb tryed to get sheila to load bullets into the thingy ;)
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interestingly ,june who had seen guns at whf didnt know the correct word for magazine .she called it 'the thingy'.i think her words were 'jb tryed to get sheila to load bullets into the thingy ;)
Yes but this is unreliable evidence and I'm surprised anyone falls for it, most of all the innocent brigade when they don't believe any other part of Robert Boutflour's testimony.
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I asked you to show evidence Sheila did not know how to chamber a rifle
On the contrary, The only person who could establish this as fact is Sheila herself. So its never going to happen
The absence of Hypostasis can been seen the photos already in the public domain. - no it can't!
If you don't find my claim credible it does not bother me, I don't have to justify myself to your satisfaction.
I'm not interested in you or your OPINIONS to be honest but you remember that statement when you ask others for clarification! but for the record as I have said before 'I don't believe you'.
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Your arguments are silly. Two can play at that game However
Could Neville have put the gun back in the cupboard? YES
Did Sheila know there was guns on the farm? YES
Did Sheila know were the gun cupboard was? YES
Did the gun cupboard have a lock? NO
Had Sheila held a gun before? YES
Does this mean Sheila know one end of the gun from the other? YES
::)
I said this week on another thread that Bamber was trying too hard to set the scene pre massacre to frame Sheila. Telling everyone there was a fully loaded rifle sprawled across the kitchen for her.
He invented a batch of very unlikely events which he has always stood by -
Seeing rabbits.
Deciding to go outside and shoot them.
Fully loading the rifle.
Not putting the silencer on.
Not firing any shots at rabbits outside.
Not putting the rifle back in the cupboard.
No one else putting the rifle away into the cupboard.
Fostering conversations were apparently taking place during this period.
He could have just said there were guns in the gun cupboard and Sheila must have taken one. He had already lied to the police and said Sheila knew how to use all the guns. Maybe he felt someone in a psychotic frenzy would not have the presence of mind to go to the gun cupboard.
Anyway the rifle on top of Sheila was the same one Bamber said he left out. Once he had given the story of leaving the rifle out and implied Sheila took it, there was no going back from the shooting rabbits scenario.
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I said this week on another thread that Bamber was trying too hard to set the scene pre massacre to frame Sheila. Telling everyone there was a fully loaded rifle sprawled across the kitchen for her.
He invented a batch of very unlikely events which he has always stood by -
Seeing rabbits.
Deciding to go outside and shoot them.
Fully loading the rifle.
Not putting the silencer on.
Not firing any shots at rabbits outside.
Not putting the rifle back in the cupboard.
No one else putting the rifle away into the cupboard.
Fostering conversations were apparently taking place during this period.
He could have just said there were guns in the gun cupboard and Sheila must have taken one. He had already lied to the police and said Sheila knew how to use all the guns. Maybe he felt someone in a psychotic frenzy would not have the presence of mind to go to the gun cupboard.
Anyway the rifle on top of Sheila was the same one Bamber said he left out. Once he had given the story of leaving the rifle out and implied Sheila took it, there was no going back from the shooting rabbits scenario.
Very true Adam and good post
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Very true Adam and good post
Apart from dotting all the I's and crossing all the T's of the practicalities -the easy part- Jeremy had the impossible task of getting into, what he THOUGHT to be, the mind of a paranoid schizophrenic. There's no point, therefore, in speculating on what Jeremy would or wouldn't have done. The scene was never meant to look like Jeremy had done it. It was designed to look like, in Jeremy's mind, Sheila had done it.
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Apart from dotting all the I's and crossing all the T's of the practicalities -the easy part- Jeremy had the impossible task of getting into, what he THOUGHT to be, the mind of a paranoid schizophrenic. There's no point, therefore, in speculating on what Jeremy would or wouldn't have done. The scene was never meant to look like Jeremy had done it. It was designed to look like, in Jeremy's mind, Sheila had done it.
Very true Jane, he would have studied Sheila like he studied Colin.
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very cunning.
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According to the case,JB had made everything up about Sheila having been ill. The relatives had denied all knowledge because they simply hadn't known so therefore told EP that there had been nothing wrong with Sheila. Not even Pam knew anything,so because it had been drummed into EP that it couldn't possibly have been Sheila as there'd been nothing wrong with her health,which I'm sure to this day that the relatives still shun the fact that Sheila had been ill at all.
CC had blamed himself in this respect for not having confided outside the Bamber household for fear of being disloyal to the family,though felt a sense of relief " knowing " that nobody knew of her illness on which to lay blame for the killings.
This is why after a month or so of deliberations among family and friends it had been decided that no way did Sheila have anything to do with these mass murders as everyone had been convinced that Sheila was a normal,clear-headed young woman who had no mental health issues.
Convinced ??
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According to the case,JB had made everything up about Sheila having been ill. The relatives had denied all knowledge because they simply hadn't known so therefore told EP that there had been nothing wrong with Sheila. Not even Pam knew anything,so because it had been drummed into EP that it couldn't possibly have been Sheila as there'd been nothing wrong with her health,which I'm sure to this day that the relatives still shun the fact that Sheila had been ill at all.
CC had blamed himself in this respect for not having confided outside the Bamber household for fear of being disloyal to the family,though felt a sense of relief " knowing " that nobody knew of her illness on which to lay blame for the killings.
This is why after a month or so of deliberations among family and friends it had been decided that no way did Sheila have anything to do with these mass murders as everyone had been convinced that Sheila was a normal,clear-headed young woman who had no mental health issues.
Convinced ??
They didn't say there was nothing wrong with her, they just didn't know the extent of her illness.
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Are we to believe the relatives ? Because what they had to say for the rest of the trial was the " truth,the whole truth and nothing but the truth ." Even going beyond doctors/specialists and psychiatrists. They remain wholly convinced that Sheila wasn't unwell and that JB was using it as an excuse.
So now we know !
This info came from an ex.resident who moved to my neck of the woods from Witham.
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Are we to believe the relatives ? Because what they had to say for the rest of the trial was the " truth,the whole truth and nothing but the truth ." Even going beyond doctors/specialists and psychiatrists. They remain wholly convinced that Sheila wasn't unwell and that JB was using it as an excuse.
So now we know !
This info came from an ex.resident who moved to my neck of the woods from Witham.
Just because someone lives in Witham, doesn't mean they know the family intimately or even at all. This could be just gossip.
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Just because someone lives in Witham, doesn't mean they know the family intimately or even at all. This could be just gossip.
This woman isn't a " gossipy " person. She's quite matter of fact and works for local government.
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For CC to say,in his words " that nobody had a clue about Sheila's illness ",people were bound to blame JB.
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Apart from dotting all the I's and crossing all the T's of the practicalities -the easy part- Jeremy had the impossible task of getting into, what he THOUGHT to be, the mind of a paranoid schizophrenic. There's no point, therefore, in speculating on what Jeremy would or wouldn't have done. The scene was never meant to look like Jeremy had done it. It was designed to look like, in Jeremy's mind, Sheila had done it.
That's a very contradictory statement Jane :-\
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For a start,it was EP who took the relatives word for it,so they didn't even use the correct protocol in police reporting,instead,they'd relied on the word of the relatives which had been totally and utterly untrue.
Notes in third person had been used profusely,another blight in police investigating.
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This woman isn't a " gossipy " person. She's quite matter of fact and works for local government.
Oh well, that's OK then. ::)
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Oh well, that's OK then. ::)
Aren't all Essex women trusting,then ? ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Aren't all Essex women trusting,then ? ;D ;D ;D ;D
No idea Lookout, I don't live there and never have.
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No idea Lookout, I don't live there and never have.
I'm sure I wouldn't know either.
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I'm sure I wouldn't know either.
Its a lovely area Lookout, I lived there for about 9 years, took me back a bit because the women would call me mate, everyone knows it should be Duck.
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Its a lovely area Lookout, I lived there for about 9 years, took me back a bit because the women would call me mate, everyone knows it should be Duck.
Essex,you mean,Justice ? If so,you're quite a long way from home.
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Essex,you mean,Justice ? If so,you're quite a long way from home.
Yes Essex, about 180 miles for me now.
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Yes Essex, about 180 miles for me now.
I'm a Lancashire girl by birth, now living in Cheshire,but wish I lived in Australia. ;D I felt at home there.
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Its a lovely area Lookout, I lived there for about 9 years, took me back a bit because the women would call me mate, everyone knows it should be Duck.
I lived in Essex for 22 years. I live in London now :'(
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I'm a Lancashire girl by birth, now living in Cheshire,but wish I lived in Australia. ;D I felt at home there.
Very nice Lookout been to Chester, would love to visit Australia..
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I lived in Essex for 22 years. I live in London now :'(
Thought you did, the men wasn't friendly, they were all the same,thought they new everything. Only joking David loved it I was on Mersea.
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Very nice Lookout been to Chester, would love to visit Australia..
Half my family live there, also friends that I made on my trips out there. A lovely country indeed,my favourite being the nature of the place with its trees,flowers and wild-life. I used to feed the kookaburras by hand when they landed on my daughters balcony,it was magic and the lorikeets and their colours.
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Half my family live there, also friends that I made on my trips out there. A lovely country indeed,my favourite being the nature of the place with its trees,flowers and wild-life. I used to feed the kookaburras by hand when they landed on my daughters balcony,it was magic and the lorikeets and their colours.
Very nice Lookout
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Thought you did, the men wasn't friendly, they were all the same,thought they new everything. Only joking David loved it I was on Mersea.
And I'm near the Mersey, :)) :)) I'm not familiar with Essex.David an Essex boy ? Funny how there's a stark difference beyond Watford.