Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: sami on June 09, 2016, 03:04:PM
-
what do we make of teddy sitting between the two pillows.who does he belong to and why was he there
-
Had that been shot at too ?
It's possible that the twins were in the bed with grannie while she read them a Psalm or two.
-
Had that been shot at too ?
It's possible that the twins were in the bed with grannie while she read them a Psalm or two.
Hi lookout
we have thrashed the Teddy to death :)) we suggested June put it there as a barrier between herself and Ralph we have said the twins put the Teddy there to sleep with their Grandparents and maybe one of the twins fell asleep in the bed and was moved when June and Ralph came to bed but the Teddy was left it was suggested that Sheila slept with June and the Teddy was her's and Ralph slept in the spare room. Oh heck all will be wrong I guess and we will never know.
-
Hi lookout
we have thrashed the Teddy to death :)) we suggested June put it there as a barrier between herself and Ralph we have said the twins put the Teddy there to sleep with their Grandparents and maybe one of the twins fell asleep in the bed and was moved when June and Ralph came to bed but the Teddy was left it was suggested that Sheila slept with June and the Teddy was her's and Ralph slept in the spare room. Oh heck all will be wrong I guess and we will never know.
oh i didnt know we had allready dealt with teddy otherwise i wouldnt have started this topic,nevermind you live n learn
-
oh i didnt know we had allready dealt with teddy otherwise i wouldnt have started this topic,nevermind you live n learn
sami thats OK it was years ago and still room for more ideas why the teddy was there. Was it actually found there or did somebody place it there after the murders. Have you any ideas sami?
-
sami thats OK it was years ago and still room for more ideas why the teddy was there. Was it actually found there or did somebody place it there after the murders. Have you any ideas sami?
no iam stumped on this one,who did it belong too
-
Maybe June realized she had an image problem with the twins and was resolved to afford herself a more human face upon their visit. Just remind me again: as you look at the picture whose side of the bed was whose?
-
I don't know which side was which,but June had been on the " blood side " that night by the look of things.
Also,it looked as though the teddy had company judging by the dark shadowy thing beneath it. Two teddies perhaps ?
-
There seems to be what looks like a 2nd Teddy next to the pink one. Smaller sandy colour teddy :-\
-
Oh good,I'm not going daft,then. Maybe because there are two,the twins were in that bed with grannie before being placed in their own beds. I'd hardly think that the teddies would have been used as a separation issue between June and Neville.
Could Sheila have been in the bed with the boys and June resting on the covers in Sheila's room because she was a poor sleeper ?
-
I don't know which side was which,but June had been on the " blood side " that night by the look of things.
Also,it looked as though the teddy had company judging by the dark shadowy thing beneath it. Two teddies perhaps ?
Of course it must have been; how silly of me. The lamp looks a bit sinister, though.
-
Of course it must have been; how silly of me. The lamp looks a bit sinister, though.
Yes,it is. I wouldn't like to wake up suddenly with that staring at me.
-
It's like a gargoyle. Teeth like a witchdoctors necklace.
-
It's like a gargoyle. Teeth like a witchdoctors necklace.
could it have triggered something in sheila ;D
-
could it have triggered something in sheila ;D
You never know. It would have triggered something in me,to aim it straight through the window. No wonder June had nightmares.
-
You never know. It would have triggered something in me,to aim it straight through the window. No wonder June had nightmares.
witty ,lookout :)) :))
-
even poor teddy and his pal could have half a dozen reasons for being there.the whole case is a real puzzla
-
what do we make of teddy sitting between the two pillows.who does he belong to and why was he there
Hi sami, Caroline asked Jeremy who the teddy belonged to and he said Nevill but that is hard to believe don't you think? ;D
It looks awful sitting there amongst the blooded bedding.
As suse has said there have been many theories, have you any ideas
-
It almost seems as though there's some significance in the teddies being there ?
-
It almost seems as though there's some significance in the teddies being there ?
You would think so lookout, wouldn't you. It seems to be very odd to see a teddy in June and Nevill's bed but some people, myself included do believe Nevill may have been sleeping in Sheila's room that night. Maybe because he was getting up really early because of the harvest and didn't want to disturb anyone or because Sheila wanted to be in earshot of the twins or some other reason or maybe Sheila did not sleep in there at all. :-\ and the teddy was Nevill's.
-
You would thin so lookout, wuldn't you. It seems to be very odd to see a teddy in June and Nevill's bed but some people, myself included do believe Nevill may have been sleeping in Sheila's room that night. Maybe because he was getting up really early because of the harvest and didn't want to disturb nyone or because Sheila wanted to be in earshot of the twins or sme other reason or maybe Sheila did not sleep in there at all. :-\
But given Sheila and her mother's relationship I can't see this happening in practice. Besides there were all Sheila's cosmetics and paraphernalia arrayed on the spare bed.
-
Hi sami, Caroline asked Jeremy who the teddy belonged to and he said Nevill but that is hard to believe don't you think? ;D
It looks awful sitting there amongst the blooded bedding.
As suse has said there have been many theories, have you any ideas
evening maggie,yes i agree for it to be neviile's is a bit far fetched .i like the theory of caroline's that sheila could have been sleeping there and not neville.also if the twins were in there before nodding off and taken to thier own beds,the teddy and his pal should also have been taken and placed next to the twins,just an opinion :)
-
The bedroom arrangements leave food for thought. With Neville's slippers in Sheila's bedroom too ?
-
Apparently 10 to 30% of adults sleep with a teddy ???
http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/6272636.html?edition=uk (http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/6272636.html?edition=uk)
-
The bedroom arrangements leave food for thought. With Neville's slippers in Sheila's bedroom too ?
and also whose socks that were found by the bed.whose were they
-
The bedroom arrangements leave food for thought. With Neville's slippers in Sheila's bedroom too ?
Yes, it makes you wonder if they had swapped rooms for some reason. I know some people cannot believe that Sheila would sleep in the main bedroom with June but she may have done it to be close to the boys. It was a big old house and they may have found it creepy and needed the reassurance of their mum close by.
-
Apparently 10 to 30% of adults sleep with a teddy ???
http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/6272636.html?edition=uk (http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/6272636.html?edition=uk)
Amazing David ;D ;D but d'you think Nevil did? Anythng is possible so he may have, JB said it belonged to himl. :o
-
Yes, it makes you wonder if they had swapped rooms for some reason. I know some people cannot believe that Sheila would sleep in the main bedroom with June but she may have done it to be close to the boys. It was a big old house and they may have found it creepy and needed the reassurance of their mum close by.
yes i would agree with that maggie
-
yes i would agree with that maggie
Colin said Sheila was a very caring and loving mother so I find it hard to believe she would sleep in her old room while the boys were so far away the other side of the landing and the main bedroom. They were only 6 so they were babies in many ways. I would n't have left my 6 year olds so far away from me in such a situation. I would doubt that June or Nevill woud be eager to get up to them if they called in the night. :)
-
Yes, it makes you wonder if they had swapped rooms for some reason. I know some people cannot believe that Sheila would sleep in the main bedroom with June but she may have done it to be close to the boys. It was a big old house and they may have found it creepy and needed the reassurance of their mum close by.
Maybe while Neville was out with the dogs and/or finishing his chores in the fields.
-
But given Sheila and her mother's relationship I can't see this happening in practice. Besides there were all Sheila's cosmetics and paraphernalia arrayed on the spare bed.
I don't think they hated each other Steve and if it were simply for practical reasons, I don't see why not. It's a massive bed and the big pink bear would have separated them. She wasn't moving into the main bedroom so would possibly have used the other room to keep her stuff.
-
I don't think they hated each other Steve and if it were simply for practical reasons, I don't see why not. It's a massive bed and the big pink bear would have separated them. She wasn't moving into the main bedroom so would possibly have used the other room to keep her stuff.
i agree with that caroline,and as you said before could also explain the empty cartridge cases by the bedroom door and neville being able to get to the kitchen,because he was never in the bedroom,also the blooded handprint on sheila's nightie if its junes than she could have made it on a drugged or asleep sheila who was on the bed next to june
-
ive always wondered how jb got her into the master bedroom,maybe she was already there.the blood trail from mouth to eye shows her head had been tipped back as if been picked up with both arms by someone
-
ive always wondered how jb got her into the master bedroom,maybe she was already there.the blood trail from mouth to eye shows her head had been tipped back as if been picked up with both arms by someone
I do think many people are attracted to the various conundrums of the case and that is what holds their interest whether they believe JB guilty or innocent.
-
I do think many people are attracted to the various conundrums of the case and that is what holds their interest whether they believe JB guilty or innocent.
very true maggie.i know we are talking with hindsight,but ep investigation has only mudded the waters.as they say on x files,the truth is out there
-
very true maggie.i know we are talking with hindsight,but ep investigation has only mudded the waters.as they say on x files,the truth is out there
;D ;D ;D
-
ive always wondered how jb got her into the master bedroom,maybe she was already there.the blood trail from mouth to eye shows her head had been tipped back as if been picked up with both arms by someone
Doesn't it though! ;)
-
ive always wondered how jb got her into the master bedroom,maybe she was already there.the blood trail from mouth to eye shows her head had been tipped back as if been picked up with both arms by someone
No. If laying head down The mouth is more elevated than the cheeks and the eyes, and the blood can pour downwards in several directions . One way is down towards the eyes like the blood from the nostril.
You can see more blood has come out on one side of the mouth that the other. Plus if she was picked up it would cause allot more blood to flow in that direction plus it would make the streams down the side of her face flow differently while she was raised. If that makes sense
-
No. If laying head down The mouth is more elevated than the cheeks and the eyes, and the blood can pour downwards in several directions . One way is down towards the eyes like the blood from the nostril.
You can see more blood has come out on one side of the mouth that the other. Plus if she was picked up it would cause allot more blood to flow in that direction plus it would make the streams down the side of her face flow differently while she was raised. If that makes sense
Uh huh ::)
-
No. If laying head down The mouth is more elevated than the cheeks and the eyes, and the blood can pour downwards in several directions . One way is down towards the eyes like the blood from the nostril.
You can see more blood has come out on one side of the mouth that the other. Plus if she was picked up it would cause allot more blood to flow in that direction plus it would make the streams down the side of her face flow differently while she was raised. If that makes sense
i see what you mean david,but the blood has to come up the nostril first and fall back towards the eye,also why did it not run the same way as the blood from the mouth 'sideways'.
-
Sheila may have moved/tilted her head herself before she died. Her mouth would have been full of blood to have made her bawk,leaving the running blood to find its own level. This part of the reflex ( choking ) would have just about been functioning before brain death. Many people "cough up" before dying and Sheila would have had an overflow of blood for it to have run down either side of her face and she'd have been in a dorsal position for that to have happened and not necessarily moved.
-
i see what you mean david,but the blood has to come up the nostril first and fall back towards the eye,also why did it not run the same way as the blood from the mouth 'sideways'.
It makes no sense what so ever for Jeremy to carry her to that spot.
Plus there is no known blood staining to suggest this happened
-
Sheila may have moved/tilted her head herself before she died. Her mouth would have been full of blood to have made her bawk,leaving the running blood to find its own level. This part of the reflex ( choking ) would have just about been functioning before brain death. Many people "cough up" before dying and Sheila would have had an overflow of blood for it to have run down either side of her face and she'd have been in a dorsal position for that to have happened and not necessarily moved.
I agree lookout, of course much of the blood would have run down her throat if she was lying prone on the floor. It is possible she may even have vomited fresh blood at some point, maybe the cause of the large amount of blood under her right arm.
-
I agree lookout, of course much of the blood would have run down her throat if she was lying prone on the floor. It is possible she may even have vomited fresh blood at some point, maybe the cause of the large amount of blood under her right arm.
It's the purging of Fluid from the abdominal pressure plus the fact she has a bullet through her lower mouth into her brain will make the purging fluid even more bloody
-
i see what you mean david,but the blood has to come up the nostril first and fall back towards the eye,also why did it not run the same way as the blood from the mouth 'sideways'.
Yes, it ran DOWN her nose then defied gravity and ran UP her face ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
-
It's the purging of Fluid from the abdominal pressure plus the fact she has a bullet through her lower mouth into her brain will make the purging fluid even more bloody
Yes, I know a bit about that.
-
Yes, it ran DOWN her nose then defied gravity and ran UP her face ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
thats a puzzle caroline.i will fill my mouth and nostrils with water lie flat and see where it goes
-
thats a puzzle caroline.i will fill my mouth and nostrils with water lie flat and see where it goes
Hahaha sami hope you don't choke xx
-
It makes no sense what so ever for Jeremy to carry her to that spot.
Plus there is no known blood staining to suggest this happened
where do you think the blood staining would be ,if she was lifted up
-
Yes, it ran DOWN her nose then defied gravity and ran UP her face ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Liquid finds its own level and if she'd tilted her head slightly,then the blood would follow whichever way.
-
where do you think the blood staining would be ,if she was lifted up
Imo it would depend how she was lifted and in what direction her head moved.
-
we have to ask the innocent camp how there think she committed suicide,ie,lying flat down or sat on her bottom with her back against the bedside cabinet ,or any other way
-
Liquid finds its own level and if she'd tilted her head slightly,then the blood would follow whichever way.
Even when something defies gravity. people will make excuses!!
-
One of the first things Jeremy made for me - was a Teddy.
Still have it.
Only just noticed that a Teddy discussion had posted.
Not looking into it too deeply - it was a lovely gesture at the time. 🙂
-
One of the first things Jeremy made for me - was a Teddy.
Still have it.
Only just noticed that a Teddy discussion had posted.
Not looking into it too deeply - it was a lovely gesture at the time. 🙂
thats nice ,albert de salvo also made some trinkets they were pearl choker necklaces.
-
Even when something defies gravity. people will make excuses!!
It's no excuse,it's the law of gravity.
-
where do you think the blood staining would be ,if she was lifted up
Carrying a lifeless body makes the body slump a bit like the photo below, Then a lot of blood would run down her forehead onto her hair. Plus Jeremy would smudge allot of the blood streams and as you can see they are untouched
(https://qph.is.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-6fb67662fad84c4737a92323fc5a30a4?convert_to_webp=true)
Plus a dead body Is very difficult to lift
-
Carrying a lifeless body makes the body slump a bit like the photo below, Then a lot of blood would run down her forehead onto her hair. Plus Jeremy would smudge allot of the blood streams and as you can see they are untouched
(https://qph.is.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-6fb67662fad84c4737a92323fc5a30a4?convert_to_webp=true)
Plus a dead body Is very difficult to lift
thats not where i think jb had his left arm.how do you explain the huge amount of blood on the right of sheila's nightie
-
thats not where i think jb had his left arm.how do you explain the huge amount of blood on the right of sheila's nightie
neck wounds
-
neck wounds
while she was lying flat on her back.
-
Carrying a lifeless body makes the body slump a bit like the photo below, Then a lot of blood would run down her forehead onto her hair. Plus Jeremy would smudge allot of the blood streams and as you can see they are untouched
(https://qph.is.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-6fb67662fad84c4737a92323fc5a30a4?convert_to_webp=true)
Plus a dead body Is very difficult to lift
Did I say she was dead? Or that she was carried any great distance? Also, I don't think he lifted her like that - however, the blood goes passed her eye and into her hairline.
You can't get passed the fact that blood came DOWN her nose, then somehow went back UP her face. Blood can't flow up her face unless her head was tilted back!!
-
It's no excuse,it's the law of gravity.
That blood flows up? Think you'll find that is the opposite to the law of gravity!! ;D ;D ;D
-
thats not where i think jb had his left arm.how do you explain the huge amount of blood on the right of sheila's nightie
This is how I believe he would have lifted her. Certainly across the main bedroom.
It wouldn't be hard to sweep a light, standing person off her feet and carry her a few feet. Sheila would be half asleep and not expecting this.
There is no possibility of Sheila already being awake and walking around the main bedroom prior to Bamber returning upstairs. There was none of June's blood on her hands or feet.
-
If you've ever known a person with schizophrenia with all the symptoms of vacant stare, not being with it, let alone Sheila's natural gullible unassuming personality it's all too possible that she was led to her death like a lamb to the slaughter in those last few seconds by a Jeremy with malice aforethought and verisimilitude of a suicide.
-
Did I say she was dead? Or that she was carried any great distance? Also, I don't think he lifted her like that - however, the blood goes passed her eye and into her hairline.
You can't get passed the fact that blood came DOWN her nose, then somehow went back UP her face. Blood can't flow up her face unless her head was tilted back!!
Its Purge Fluid mixed with blood from the wounds.
What is Purge Fluid?
This is a putrid, reddish-brown fluid with a very foul smell that can emerge from the oral and nasal passages. It is easily mistaken as a brain injury, assault or just simple blood. It emerges as a result of the gases forming throughout the body. When gas formation occurs in the stomach and intestines, the abdomen can become tense and distended. Subsequently, the increase in abdominal pressure causes a purge of foul, blood-tinged fluid from the mouth, vagina and nose. A similar feces-mixed fluid will also emerge from the rectum
(http://img.medscapestatic.com/pi/meds/ckb/52/9652tn.jpg)
-
That blood flows up? Think you'll find that is the opposite to the law of gravity!! ;D ;D ;D
It would flow up if there'd been movement----she'd obviously tilted back after the jolt of the shot.
-
Its Purge Fluid mixed with blood from the wounds.
What is Purge Fluid?
This is a putrid, reddish-brown fluid with a very foul smell that can emerge from the oral and nasal passages. It is easily mistaken as a brain injury, assault or just simple blood. It emerges as a result of the gases forming throughout the body. When gas formation occurs in the stomach and intestines, the abdomen can become tense and distended. Subsequently, the increase in abdominal pressure causes a purge of foul, blood-tinged fluid from the mouth, vagina and nose. A similar feces-mixed fluid will also emerge from the rectum
(http://img.medscapestatic.com/pi/meds/ckb/52/9652tn.jpg)
I'm not talking about what it is (for which you are making yet another assumption) - I am talking about the flow. Blood, or purge or tomato sauce, can't run in UP unless her head was tilted back.
-
It's only one line of blood,not a mass.
-
This is how I believe he would have lifted her. Certainly across the main bedroom.
It wouldn't be hard to sweep a light, standing person off her feet and carry her a few feet. Sheila would be half asleep and not expecting this.
There is no possibility of Sheila already being awake and walking around the main bedroom prior to Bamber returning upstairs. There was none of June's blood on her hands or feet.
adam,i think the arm was higher up to support the neck and tuck it into his body.her neck was only in that position for a second or two,hence the large pool of blood on the right side of her nightie
-
We did speculate as to whether the Police attempted CPR.
-
It would flow up if there'd been movement----she'd obviously tilted back after the jolt of the shot.
That doesn't explain it lookout.
-
We did speculate as to whether the Police attempted CPR.
Sorry Steve - I have always thought that suggestion was ridiculous.
-
It's only one line of blood,not a mass.
what has amount got to do with it.lookout
-
what has amount got to do with it.lookout
The fact that it's there shows her head was tilted back - the amount means nothing.
-
adam,i think the arm was higher up to support the neck and tuck it into his body.her neck was only in that position for a second or two,hence the large pool of blood on the right side of her nightie
He would have carried her before she was shot.
Although there was a suggestion by a poster on another forum he shot her once when in bed. Then carried her to his chosen position. Which I also believe was possible.
-
The fact that it's there shows her head was tilted back - the amount means nothing.
exactly, caroline :)
-
That doesn't explain it lookout.
If you can think of anything better,then you go ahead and explain.
A sudden jolt of her head, backwards, would have caused an already line of blood,to follow that route .
-
If you can think of anything better,then you go ahead and explain.
A sudden jolt of her head, backwards, would have caused an already line of blood,to follow that route .
agreed ,that sudden jolt was when he lifted her :)
-
I'm not talking about what it is (for which you are making yet another assumption) - I am talking about the flow. Blood, or purge or tomato sauce, can't run in UP unless her head was tilted back.
It emerges as a result of the gases forming throughout the body. When gas formation occurs in the stomach and intestines, the abdomen can become tense and distended. Subsequently, the increase in abdominal pressure causes a purge of foul, blood-tinged fluid from the mouth, vagina and nose
-
agreed ,that sudden jolt was when he lifted her :)
Nobody lifted her at all.
-
Nobody lifted her at all.
according to you and your camp.we beg to differ,was she lying flat or sat up when the jolt happened
-
according to you and your camp.we beg to differ,was she lying flat or sat up when the jolt happened
She'd have been lying flat with her head slightly crooked against the bedside cabinet, until it flopped backwards as we see her lying in the pics.
-
She'd have been lying flat with her head slightly crooked against the bedside cabinet, until it flopped backwards as we see her lying in the pics.
if it was as above ,lookout ,i doubt if she could make the shot that ended in her life
-
It emerges as a result of the gases forming throughout the body. When gas formation occurs in the stomach and intestines, the abdomen can become tense and distended. Subsequently, the increase in abdominal pressure causes a purge of foul, blood-tinged fluid from the mouth, vagina and nose
This STILL doesn't explain how blood or purge or whatever you want to call it leaked from her nose and mouth and flowed UP her face!
-
She'd have been lying flat with her head slightly crooked against the bedside cabinet, until it flopped backwards as we see her lying in the pics.
There is no way that would cause blood (or Davids PURGE) to flow up her face.
-
There is no way that would cause blood (or Davids PURGE) to flow up her face.
Have we seen your thoughts then ?
-
Nobody lifted her at all.
Err, you don't know that and the blood on her face flowing UP suggests otherwise!! The bullet casing found under her body or just to the right of her could have gotten there if she had shot herself in that position.
-
Err, you don't know that and the blood on her face flowing UP suggests otherwise!! The bullet casing found under her body or just to the right of her could have gotten there if she had shot herself in that position.
Straight answers please. How did the blood run upwards ? I wasn't on about bullet cases.
-
Straight answers please. How did the blood run upwards ? I wasn't on about bullet cases.
I have already said - keep up! I was talking about the bullet case, you won't talk about it because you don't have an answer ;D ;D
-
I have already said - keep up! I was talking about the bullet case, you won't talk about it because you don't have an answer ;D ;D
oh but they do caroline,the police moved the bullet case. any thing they cant explain they resort to the same ploy 'police did it' :))
-
I have already said - keep up! I was talking about the bullet case, you won't talk about it because you don't have an answer ;D ;D
NONE of us has an answer as to how the bullet case ended up where it did-----------but there IS a logical answer to how blood flowed upward.
-
Err, you don't know that and the blood on her face flowing UP suggests otherwise!! The bullet casing found under her body or just to the right of her could have gotten there if she had shot herself in that position.
I would guess she must have been moved when she was bleeding and her head had fallen back. That's the only way the blood would have flowed that way imo. Anyway, I have always believed she was moved, either after the first shot and before the second shot or possibly later.
-
She'd have been lying flat with her head slightly crooked against the bedside cabinet, until it flopped backwards as we see her lying in the pics.
i doubt if her head raised she could make the shot to the brain loookout.the angle is not right
-
what do you think
-
Her neck was extended back to have aimed the shot from that position.Remember the bullet went upwards. So with her neck bent back,the blood would have run that way too.
-
It emerges as a result of the gases forming throughout the body. When gas formation occurs in the stomach and intestines, the abdomen can become tense and distended. Subsequently, the increase in abdominal pressure causes a purge of foul, blood-tinged fluid from the mouth, vagina and nose
I think you're missing the point here, David. This is less about the TYPE of emissions issued and more about how they would flow from a head in the downward position, however, I note with some interest that you clearly accept that Sheila had been dead for several hours as it would certainly take -AT LEAST- that long for the abdomen to fill with gasses resulting in "a purge of foul, blood tinged fluid" from various orifices.
-
I think you're missing the point here, David. This is less about the TYPE of emissions issued and more about how they would flow from a head in the downward position, however, I note with some interest that you clearly accept that Sheila had been dead for several hours as it would certainly take -AT LEAST- that long for the abdomen to fill with gasses resulting in "a purge of foul, blood tinged fluid" from various orifices.
There didn't appear to be much external blood loss from the actual wound which looks more like a trickle, the wound does seem to have bled internally and spilled out when her head was tilted back. .
-
This STILL doesn't explain how blood or purge or whatever you want to call it leaked from her nose and mouth and flowed UP her face!
Its not difficult to work out. She is laying on her back face up. This makes the nostrils higher from the ground than her eye sockets and frontal cheeks. Once blood is forced out the nose then Gravity will have the blood flow downward towards her eyes. The blood is not flowing up at all it would only be flowing up if it went from her nose to her eye while she was sitting up. and that would be rather bizarre
(http://img.medscapestatic.com/pi/meds/ckb/52/9652tn.jpg)
-
Its not difficult to work out. She is laying on her back face up. This makes the nostrils higher from the ground than her eye sockets and frontal cheeks. Once blood is forced out the nose then Gravity will have the blood flow downward towards her eyes. The blood is not flowing up at all it would only be flowing up if it went from her nose to her eye while she was sitting up. and that would be rather bizarre
(http://img.medscapestatic.com/pi/meds/ckb/52/9652tn.jpg)
Well yes. The blood will flow from the highest point to the lowest point so if she was lying prone on her back with her head flat to the floor,, blood from her nose would have found it's own level no doubt about that.
-
NONE of us has an answer as to how the bullet case ended up where it did-----------but there IS a logical answer to how blood flowed upward.
And yet you can't think of one ::)
-
I would guess she must have been moved when she was bleeding and her head had fallen back. That's the only way the blood would have flowed that way imo. Anyway, I have always believed she was moved, either after the first shot and before the second shot or possibly later.
I agree, I think she was moved between shots - Jeremy may have thought she was dead after the first shot but when he moved her, he realised she wasn't
-
Its not difficult to work out. She is laying on her back face up. This makes the nostrils higher from the ground than her eye sockets and frontal cheeks. Once blood is forced out the nose then Gravity will have the blood flow downward towards her eyes. The blood is not flowing up at all it would only be flowing up if it went from her nose to her eye while she was sitting up. and that would be rather bizarre
It has also flowed UP from her mouth. Even on your example picture, the blood from the persons mouth has not flowed upwards.
-
It has also flowed UP from her mouth. Even on your example picture, the blood from the persons mouth has not flowed upwards.
That is true, for the blood to flow up from her mouth, Sheila's head would have had to have fallen right back imo.
-
And yet you can't think of one ::)
I'd already posted my reason,but----------if you wish to remain pedantic then be my guest.
-
It has also flowed UP from her mouth. Even on your example picture, the blood from the persons mouth has not flowed upwards.
There is a small stream from that photo. The fluid is being forced out the mouth and nose by abdominal pressure from changes in the body
-
NONE of us has an answer as to how the bullet case ended up where it did-----------but there IS a logical answer to how blood flowed upward.
what about the bullet case?
-
There is a small stream from that photo. The fluid MAY BE forced out the mouth and nose by abdominal pressure from changes in the body
OR her head was tilted back!!
-
OR her head was tilted back!!
No because that will disturb the other streams of blood. all the streams of blood follow in one direction according to the path of least resistence. and by the time the fluids start coming up Jeremy would be outside anyway
-
Could someone explain what all this is trying to prove?
-
No because that will disturb the other streams of blood. all the streams of blood follow in one direction according to the path of least resistence. and by the time the fluids start coming up Jeremy would be outside anyway
Yes.
-
Her neck was extended back to have aimed the shot from that position.Remember the bullet went upwards. So with her neck bent back,the blood would have run that way too.
i disagree.if you look at the photo.she could not have bent her neck that far back because the bedside cabinet will not allow her neck back that far.so with her head slightly leaning against the cabinet the shot would not have gone to the brain
-
Could someone explain what all this is trying to prove?
hi steve,its about her being carried and the path of the fatal shot,angles
-
Could someone explain what all this is trying to prove?
They are tying to suggest Sheila could not have killed herself because of the trickle of blood running from her nose to her left eye ::)
-
They are tying to suggest Sheila could not have killed herself because of the trickle of blood running from her nose to her left eye ::)
Not quite as bad as saying Jeremy must be innocent because there is a hand print on the bible ::)
-
Not quite as bad as saying Jeremy must be innocent because there is a hand print on the bible ::)
Ah But who's hand print is it and what is the print made of? that's the crucial point ;)
-
Ah But who's hand print is it and what is the print made of? that's the crucial point ;)
could it be jb's right hand with a glove on :)
-
Ah But who's hand print is it and what is the print made of? that's the crucial point ;)
It makes no odds - it proves nothing other than there is hand print on the bible. Nothing crucial about any of it.
-
It makes no odds - it proves nothing other than there is hand print on the bible. Nothing crucial about any of it.
This is coming from someone making a big deal of a drop of blood running out Sheila's nose ;D ;D
-
Strange the Defence didn't make more of the bible or Sheila's illness at trial..
-
This is coming from someone making a big deal of a drop of blood running out Sheila's nose ;D ;D
what is crucial about that print,david
-
Strange the Defence didn't make more of the bible or Sheila's illness at trial..
The defence did try to obtain more information about the bible but the police did not give over anything.
Besides they hade the silencer to grapple with that was their priority :-\
-
so after killing everyone she walks back into the room where the person she disliked the most lying there ,walks around the bed lays on the floor and shoots herself,i find very hard to believe :)
-
so after killing everyone she walks back into the room where the person she disliked the most lying there ,walks around the bed lays on the floor and shoots herself,i find very hard to believe :)
It doesn't ring true sami. If she's in psychosis she doesn't know what she's doing properly and could at a pinch land up there, but then in that bewildered state she wouldn't be screwing and unscrewing a silencer.
-
It doesn't ring true sami. If she's in psychosis she doesn't know what she's doing properly and could at a pinch land up there, but then in that bewildered state she wouldn't be screwing and unscrewing a silencer.
thats true steve
-
so after killing everyone she walks back into the room where the person she disliked the most lying there ,walks around the bed lays on the floor and shoots herself,i find very hard to believe :)
She could have entered via the other door :-\
-
It doesn't ring true sami. If she's in psychosis she doesn't know what she's doing properly and could at a pinch land up there, but then in that bewildered state she wouldn't be screwing and unscrewing a silencer.
You seem to think someone in psychotic has no clue what they are doing. that is not true
-
You seem to think someone in psychotic has no clue what they are doing. that is not true
You have had experience of someone in a psychotic episode?
-
Ah But who's hand print is it and what is the print made of? that's the crucial point ;)
June's blood,June's handprint. Simple.
-
June's blood,June's handprint. Simple.
sorry iam a bit confused lookout.what does the above prove :)
-
sorry iam a bit confused lookout.what does the above prove :)
That she herself didn't remain the innocent bystander in all of this. The hand/palm-print on the Bible was only a small one and would point to it having belonged to June. I think she antagonised Sheila as she'd always done.
-
That she herself didn't remain the innocent bystander in all of this. The hand/palm-print on the Bible was only a small one and would point to it having belonged to June. I think she antagonised Sheila as she'd always done.
are you saying she played a part in this affair ,antagonised her when after she had been pumped full of bullets
-
If Sheila had been as spattered/covered in the amount of blood that June was,there'd have been little doubt of who the shooter would have been.
Let's not forget that June ruined Sheila's life to such an extent and Colin had been anxious about his boys being indoctrinated the same as Sheila had been,so being that many guns were to hand,whether able to use them or not,they became the obvious weapon to use in which to put an end to all the suffering.
-
If Sheila had been as spattered/covered in the amount of blood that June was,there'd have been little doubt of who the shooter would have been.
Let's not forget that June ruined Sheila's life to such an extent and Colin had been anxious about his boys being indoctrinated the same as Sheila had been,so being that many guns were to hand,whether able to use them or not,they became the obvious weapon to use in which to put an end to all the suffering.
sorry lookout thats not what i asked you ,i said do you think she played a part in that mornings events.june was only covered with that amount of blood because of her wounds,theres no reason why sc should have the same amount of blood on her as june,i thought you were saying june picked up the bible after been shot because of her alleged blood print,and started antagonising sheila
-
Ah But who's hand print is it and what is the print made of? that's the crucial point ;)
david youre saying its junes print,we cant be sure ,but i will agree it is,what does it show to me its just shows that june knowing she was going to die after been shot many times and in her religious zeal held the bible in her hand to be close to her makers word in her last seconds.many many people hold on to religious objects in their final breathes,nothing crucial about that.no doubt jb picked it out from her hand or near where she had dropped it ,than placed it near sheila :)
-
david youre saying its junes print,we cant be sure ,but i will agree it is,what does it show to me its just shows that june knowing she was going to die after been shot many times and in her religious zeal held the bible in her hand to be close to her makers word in her last seconds.many many people hold on to religious objects in their final breathes,nothing crucial about that.no doubt jb picked it out from her hand or near where she had dropped it ,than placed it near sheila :)
I think only Lookout thinks it's June's print Sami. I don't believe anyone had the need to pick up a bible - it was just a prop.
-
I think only Lookout thinks it's June's print Sami. I don't believe anyone had the need to pick up a bible - it was just a prop.
i agree caroline,its just a priemtive strike by me,if they can show its junes ,it means nothing :) ;)
-
Anyway back to the thread. It could have been Ralphs teddy. A lot of fighter pilots had mascots, not the actual teddy at the scene but a substitute.
-
Anyway back to the thread. It could have been Ralphs teddy. A lot of fighter pilots had mascots, not the actual teddy at the scene but a substitute.
thats who jb told a forum member it belonged to,nb
-
sorry lookout thats not what i asked you ,i said do you think she played a part in that mornings events.june was only covered with that amount of blood because of her wounds,theres no reason why sc should have the same amount of blood on her as june,i thought you were saying june picked up the bible after been shot because of her alleged blood print,and started antagonising sheila
My answer is in the post if you study it.
So far as I can gather there'd been a suggestion that night that the twins go to be fostered while Sheila convalesced at June's behest. June wasn't able to undertake any extra care because of her own fragile health,so I can imagine that the suggestions didn't go well with Sheila even though she'd been deemed incapable of looking after herself let alone two little boys.
Whatever went on during the time that JB had left,we don't know.
I've said this before that BOTH women had psychotic tendencies.
-
i agree caroline,its just a priemtive strike by me,if they can show its junes ,it means nothing :) ;)
Only June would have read,or been reading that Bible because Sheila wasn't interested,she wasn't the religious one and the only reason that Sheila said that " she'd found God " was to try and appease June.
-
Anyway back to the thread. It could have been Ralphs teddy. A lot of fighter pilots had mascots, not the actual teddy at the scene but a substitute.
Do you think a fighter pilot would choose a massive PINK bear as his mascot? Also, that bear isn't a traditional type, it looks as though it is from the 1970's (ish) - by which time Nevill's feet were well and truly on the ground.
-
Only June would have read,or been reading that Bible because Sheila wasn't interested,she wasn't the religious one and the only reason that Sheila said that " she'd found God " was to try and appease June.
I agree that she wasn't religious, which is why I think it was staged.
-
My answer is in the post if you study it.
So far as I can gather there'd been a suggestion that night that the twins go to be fostered while Sheila convalesced at June's behest. June wasn't able to undertake any extra care because of her own fragile health,so I can imagine that the suggestions didn't go well with Sheila even though she'd been deemed incapable of looking after herself let alone two little boys.
Whatever went on during the time that JB had left,we don't know.
I've said this before that BOTH women had psychotic tendencies.
sorry lookout we only have jb's word for that nights events,i will only believe it when it can be verified by another person that it took place,i will not take jb's word on it :)
-
My answer is in the post if you study it.
So far as I can gather there'd been a suggestion that night that the twins go to be fostered while Sheila convalesced at June's behest. June wasn't able to undertake any extra care because of her own fragile health,so I can imagine that the suggestions didn't go well with Sheila even though she'd been deemed incapable of looking after herself let alone two little boys.
Whatever went on during the time that JB had left,we don't know.
I've said this before that BOTH women had psychotic tendencies.
I can imagine a scenario whereby June suggests that the boys come to stay at White House Farm whilst Sheila convalesces at a home in Bournemouth. June would be able to see more of them and an ulterior motive would be to separate them from Colin, whom she believed to be a malign influence. Nevill may also have been watching developments those last few days and to his horror realizing that Sheila was incapable of any meaningful care of her children and the burden was falling on an already ailing June.
What I find hard to accept under these circumstances is Nevill and June becoming angry, confronting Sheila about the perceived neglect and this becoming the trigger for the tragedy. The telephone call from Pamela, which we are in a sense lucky to have, tends to confirm that there was no malice in June's intent as an exhausted Sheila ascended the stairs.
-
I can imagine a scenario whereby June suggests that the boys come to stay at White House Farm whilst Sheila convalesces at a home in Bournemouth. June would be able to see more of them and an ulterior motive would be to separate them from Colin, whom she believed to be a malign influence. Nevill may also have been watching developments those last few days and to his horror realizing that Sheila was incapable of any meaningful care of her children and the burden was falling on an already ailing June.
What I find hard to accept under these circumstances is Nevill and June becoming angry, confronting Sheila about the perceived neglect and this becoming the trigger for the tragedy. The telephone call from Pamela, which we are in a sense lucky to have, tends to confirm that there was no malice in June's intent as an exhausted Sheila ascended the stairs.
I was wondering when Bournemouth would come into it.
-
I agree that she wasn't religious, which is why I think it was staged.
Dr Fergusons statements suggest otherwise.
Then you have the fact she had delusions all of a religious theme. Believing herself to be The Virgin Mary and Joan of Arc. Those are two significant people of the Christian Faith.
-
Dr Fergusons statements suggest otherwise.
Then you have the fact she had delusions all of a religious theme. Believing herself to be The Virgin Mary and Joan of Arc. Those are two significant people of the Christian Faith.
This was written of her FIRST stay in St Andrews. Dr Ferguson would have known nothing of her life in London following her second visit because he never saw her again. I have no recall of him saying those things of her during her second stay.
-
This was written of her FIRST stay in St Andrews. Dr Ferguson would have known nothing of her life in London following her second visit because he never saw her again. I have no recall of him saying those things of her during her second stay.
That's right Jane, and she must have evinced sufficient a sensitivity to not want the stay in hospital to get around, hence the plea to cousin Ann in her letter to keep it quiet.
-
This was written of her FIRST stay in St Andrews. Dr Ferguson would have known nothing of her life in London following her second visit because he never saw her again. I have no recall of him saying those things of her during her second stay.
Sheila’s doctor, Hugh Ferguson from St Andrew’s Hospital, Northampton, told the court that Sheila had “bizarre delusions about possession by the devil.” She had told him she hated her mother and, in the past, she had seen herself as both Joan of Arc and the Virgin Mary. Sheila had been discharged as recently as March 29, 1985 (four months before the murders), and Dr Ferguson wrote he “was not happy about her leaving so soon.”
http://jimshelley.com/crime/jeremy-bamber/ (http://jimshelley.com/crime/jeremy-bamber/)
-
Sheila’s doctor, Hugh Ferguson from St Andrew’s Hospital, Northampton, told the court that Sheila had “bizarre delusions about possession by the devil.” She had told him she hated her mother and, in the past, she had seen herself as both Joan of Arc and the Virgin Mary. Sheila had been discharged as recently as March 29, 1985 (four months before the murders), and Dr Ferguson wrote he “was not happy about her leaving so soon.”
http://jimshelley.com/crime/jeremy-bamber/ (http://jimshelley.com/crime/jeremy-bamber/)
No they never are, given the prodigious fees they charge.
-
Sheila’s doctor, Hugh Ferguson from St Andrew’s Hospital, Northampton, told the court that Sheila had “bizarre delusions about possession by the devil.” She had told him she hated her mother and, in the past, she had seen herself as both Joan of Arc and the Virgin Mary. Sheila had been discharged as recently as March 29, 1985 (four months before the murders), and Dr Ferguson wrote he “was not happy about her leaving so soon.”
http://jimshelley.com/crime/jeremy-bamber/ (http://jimshelley.com/crime/jeremy-bamber/)
I would be interested to know if Dr. F. specified that those "bizarre delusions" occurred during her 1985 stay. Other than saying she made little mention of her family during that time, I don'r recall him saying much else about her condition. I will allow that he'd have preferred her to stay another week(?) but he appreciated that she didn't want to meet Christine for the first time whilst she was in a psych ward. I find ambiguous what he says above.
-
I would be interested to know if Dr. F. specified that those "bizarre delusions" occurred during her 1985 stay. Other than saying she made little mention of her family during that time, I don'r recall him saying much else about her condition. I will allow that he'd have preferred her to stay another week(?) but he appreciated that she didn't want to meet Christine for the first time whilst she was in a psych ward. I find ambiguous what he says above.
Why does it matter? No need to overcomplicate things. The fact of the matter is Sheila was religious to an extent. Plus she had delusions all of a religious theme as a result of her mental illness and those symptoms would remain for as long as the illness that is causing them.
IMO taking the delusions aside Sheila seems like someone who would be religious when it suits them and when they need faith for what ever reason, Unlike June who was a 24/7 fanatic
-
Sheila’s doctor, Hugh Ferguson from St Andrew’s Hospital, Northampton, told the court that Sheila had “bizarre delusions about possession by the devil.” She had told him she hated her mother and, in the past, she had seen herself as both Joan of Arc and the Virgin Mary. Sheila had been discharged as recently as March 29, 1985 (four months before the murders), and Dr Ferguson wrote he “was not happy about her leaving so soon.”
http://jimshelley.com/crime/jeremy-bamber/ (http://jimshelley.com/crime/jeremy-bamber/)
As did Jeremy to other people but Sheila was taking anti-psychotic meds and Jeremy ..... well, he was still telling people he hated his mother.
-
I would be interested to know if Dr. F. specified that those "bizarre delusions" occurred during her 1985 stay. Other than saying she made little mention of her family during that time, I don'r recall him saying much else about her condition. I will allow that he'd have preferred her to stay another week(?) but he appreciated that she didn't want to meet Christine for the first time whilst she was in a psych ward. I find ambiguous what he says above.
Of course the Defence has to labour Sheila's illness and who can blame them for playing their strongest card? Yet it pales into insignificance whether Sheila laughed inappropriately or discussed suicide with Helen Grimster when compared to Jeremy's overweening malevolence.
-
Of course the Defence has to labour Sheila's illness and who can blame them for playing their strongest card? Yet it pales into insignificance whether Sheila laughed inappropriately or discussed suicide with Helen Grimster when compared to Jeremy's overweening malevolence.
It's their ONLY card.
-
Of course the Defence has to labour Sheila's illness and who can blame them for playing their strongest card? Yet it pales into insignificance whether Sheila laughed inappropriately or discussed suicide with Helen Grimster when compared to Jeremy's overweening malevolence.
excellently put,steve :)
-
Why does it matter? No need to overcomplicate things. The fact of the matter is Sheila was religious to an extent. Plus she had delusions all of a religious theme as a result of her mental illness and those symptoms would remain for as long as the illness that is causing them.
IMO taking the delusions aside Sheila seems like someone who would be religious when it suits them and when they need faith for what ever reason, Unlike June who was a 24/7 fanatic
I don't recall that any of her friends has said of her that Sheila spent any of her time with them talking about religion but as I understand how far she may have gone to raise herself in June's eyes, she MAY have used religion as a way of doing it which strikes more of conscience decision than delusional behaviour.
I believe you read June wrongly. I don't believe she was a 24/7 fanatic. I DO believe she was a dedicated and devout Christian who turned to her faith to put right those things she believed were wrong within her children.
-
I don't recall that any of her friends has said of her that Sheila spent any of her time with them talking about religion but as I understand how far she may have gone to raise herself in June's eyes, she MAY have used religion as a way of doing it which strikes more of conscience decision than delusional behaviour.
I believe you read June wrongly. I don't believe she was a 24/7 fanatic. I DO believe she was a dedicated and devout Christian who turned to her faith to put right those things she believed were wrong within her children.
That's very well put Jane. But what a hypocrite to believe in the sanctity of human life, yet driving her daughter hurriedly to the abortion clinic..
-
That's very well put Jane. But what a hypocrite to believe in the sanctity of human life, yet driving her daughter hurriedly to the abortion clinic..
So you can understand the constant conflict going on for June, can't you, Steve, between adhering to God's law and what she believed God might expect, by way of perfection, from her daughter.
-
Of course the Defence has to labour Sheila's illness and who can blame them for playing their strongest card? Yet it pales into insignificance whether Sheila laughed inappropriately or discussed suicide with Helen Grimster when compared to Jeremy's overweening malevolence.
Pales into insignificance? You failed to mention she believed she was Joan of Arc and that she thought her children were possessed by the devil and trying to seduce her.
-
No they never are, given the prodigious fees they charge.
you seem very cynical of things
-
Pales into insignificance? You failed to mention she believed she was Joan of Arc and that she thought her children were possessed by the devil and trying to seduce her.
These are delusions which could even in the 1980s be controlled by neuroleptic drugs.
-
So you can understand the constant conflict going on for June, can't you, Steve, between adhering to God's law and what she believed God might expect, by way of perfection, from her daughter.
But why dent her confidence even further by refusing to let her be married in white and in church?
-
But why dent her confidence even further by refusing to let her be married in white and in church?
Sins must be paid for, Steve. There's no such thing as a free lunch.
-
Sins must be paid for, Steve. There's no such thing as a free lunch.
Yet what a chance for a fresh start between mother, daughter and son-in-law. It just tells me she still may have had a problem in 1977 when the marriage took place, Jeremy says his relationship with June deteriorated from 1978 and June was hospitalized for the second time in 1982.
-
you seem very cynical of things
Yes I regret that post. The doctor seemed quite fair reading his statements post-murders.
-
Yet what a chance for a fresh start between mother, daughter and son-in-law. It just tells me she still may have had a problem in 1977 when the marriage took place, Jeremy says his relationship with June deteriorated from 1978 and June was hospitalized for the second time in 1982.
Steve, whilst I'm not saying you're wrong, I'd caution you to remember that if having strongly fixed ideas -on just about ANYTHING!!!- denoted mental instability, many of us would be sufferers!!!!!!
-
we have to remember that despite her illness she had NO record of attacking people or being violent to anyone :)
-
Dr Fergusons statements suggest otherwise.
Then you have the fact she had delusions all of a religious theme. Believing herself to be The Virgin Mary and Joan of Arc. Those are two significant people of the Christian Faith.
Doesn't mean to say that she was religious. It was delusions of grandeur that she suffered.
-
So we should all believe in the doctor/psychiatrist ? Are they ALWAYS right ?
-
So we should all believe in the doctor/psychiatrist ? Are they ALWAYS right ?
I don't think they can predict if and when someone is going to snap, but then Dr. Ferguson didn't did he?
-
So we should all believe in the doctor/psychiatrist ? Are they ALWAYS right ?
This is not a matter or him being right or wrong. Her religious beliefs and religious delusions are symptoms he would observe by via conversation with her, Its no matter of speculation.
The only things that could be right or wrong would be the method of treatments. But the Religious aspect would be via her communicating with him its not something you can get wrong.
-
Doesn't mean to say that she was religious. It was delusions of grandeur that she suffered.
i agree lookout :)
-
This is not a matter or him being right or wrong. Her religious beliefs and religious delusions are symptoms he would observe by via conversation with her, Its no matter of speculation.
The only things that could be right or wrong would be the method of treatments. But the Religious aspect would be via her communicating with him its not something you can get wrong.
No but you have to look at whether she was violent towards others(for example using a knife) in these episodes and the evidence suggests that she was not.
-
No but you have to look at whether she was violent towards others(for example using a knife) in these episodes and the evidence suggests that she was not.
No we don't. Not all episodes are the same, Colin has reported her being violent.
Besides trying to downplay Sheila's mental heath is strawman argument for the pro guilt camp. Because had she not been so mentally ill Jeremy would not have conceived the idea in the first place
-
No we don't. Not all episodes are the same, Colin has reported her being violent.
Besides trying to downplay Sheila's mental heath is strawman argument for the pro guilt camp. Because had she not been so mentally ill Jeremy would not have conceived the idea in the first place
been violent how throwing a vase,the fact is she has never attacked anyone in her life. no matter what you say david,you cant change that,many people with her condition are not violent and dont kill others,they self harm or take their own lives :)
-
No we don't. Not all episodes are the same, Colin has reported her being violent.
Besides trying to downplay Sheila's mental heath is strawman argument for the pro guilt camp. Because had she not been so mentally ill Jeremy would not have conceived the idea in the first place
Oh well that would be big of him to admit. We're not talking about the odd slap or dropping one of Colin's ceramics on the kitchen floor, but an escalation which was atypical of the Sheila who had recently embraced CND and found God in a humble way.
-
No we don't. Not all episodes are the same, Colin has reported her being violent.
Besides trying to downplay Sheila's mental heath is strawman argument for the pro guilt camp. Because had she not been so mentally ill Jeremy would not have conceived the idea in the first place
jb's conceived idea was wrong,because bar you and a few others ,no one believes sheila had a turn that night ;)
-
Oh well that would be big of him to admit. We're not talking about the odd slap or dropping one of Colin's ceramics on the kitchen floor, but an escalation which was atypical of the Sheila who had recently embraced CND and found God in a humble way.
On the contrary, on the lead up to the tragedy she had her anti psychotic medication reduced by half and there was talks of sending the twins into foster care.
Several other researchers have confirmed some of Resnick’s (1969, 1970) findings. For instance, Marleau, Roy, Laporte, Webanck, and Poulin (1995) examined a sample of 17 women who killed or attempted to kill their children, concluding that most of the women had a history of mental illness and killed for ‘‘altruistic’’ reasons. Rohde, Raic, Varchmin- Schultheib, and Marneros (1998) investigated 33 cases of child murder and found that 9 cases involved ‘‘extended suicide,’’ that is, a type of filicide whereby the mother experiences suicidal ideation, which is carried out on her children. Of the 9 cases, 78% involved mental illness, with 44% involving some form of psychosis (Rohde et al., 1998). These findings suggest that filicide involves a common theme of mental illness, and in many cases psychosis, which is much different than simply ‘‘not wanting’’ the child, as is usually the case with mothers in the neonaticide group.
Clinical features of parricide in patients with schizophrenia
In terms of denial, the psychotic individual exhibits a ‘‘complete lack of concern, anxiety, or emotional reaction about an immediate, serious, pressing need, conflict, or danger in [his or her] life’’ (Kernberg, 1984, p. 17). An example of denial includes a psychotic individual, who just murdered someone, with a complete lack of remorse or emotional reaction to the gravity of his or her action. Finally, with regard to omnipotence and devaluation, the psychotic individual experiences an exaggerated, inflated, grandiose self, and an emotionally degrading view of others (Kernberg, 1984). For example, the psychotic individual may believe that he or she is the ‘‘messiah,’’ or has some sort of special mission from God, and is responsible for killing ‘‘evil’’ people.
Motives for maternal filicide: Results from a study
with female forensic patients
16 of the 20 cases of filicide offenders were found to have psychiatric symptoms prior to their crime (Farooque & Ernst, 2003; Meyer & Oberman, 2001). Marks (1996) showed in his study of 45 mothers who killed their newborns that 77% used non wounding violence, such as suffocating and drowning. In contrast, women who killed older children tended to use more violent methods, such as killing by shaking, throwing to the ground, hitting, srangling, stabbing, and shooting
Motives for maternal filicide: Results from a study
with female forensic patients
-
On the contrary, on the lead up to the tragedy she had her anti psychotic medication reduced by half and there was talks of sending the twins into foster care.
Several other researchers have confirmed some of Resnick’s (1969, 1970) findings. For instance, Marleau, Roy, Laporte, Webanck, and Poulin (1995) examined a sample of 17 women who killed or attempted to kill their children, concluding that most of the women had a history of mental illness and killed for ‘‘altruistic’’ reasons. Rohde, Raic, Varchmin- Schultheib, and Marneros (1998) investigated 33 cases of child murder and found that 9 cases involved ‘‘extended suicide,’’ that is, a type of filicide whereby the mother experiences suicidal ideation, which is carried out on her children. Of the 9 cases, 78% involved mental illness, with 44% involving some form of psychosis (Rohde et al., 1998). These findings suggest that filicide involves a common theme of mental illness, and in many cases psychosis, which is much different than simply ‘‘not wanting’’ the child, as is usually the case with mothers in the neonaticide group.
Clinical features of parricide in patients with schizophrenia
In terms of denial, the psychotic individual exhibits a ‘‘complete lack of concern, anxiety, or emotional reaction about an immediate, serious, pressing need, conflict, or danger in [his or her] life’’ (Kernberg, 1984, p. 17). An example of denial includes a psychotic individual, who just murdered someone, with a complete lack of remorse or emotional reaction to the gravity of his or her action. Finally, with regard to omnipotence and devaluation, the psychotic individual experiences an exaggerated, inflated, grandiose self, and an emotionally degrading view of others (Kernberg, 1984). For example, the psychotic individual may believe that he or she is the ‘‘messiah,’’ or has some sort of special mission from God, and is responsible for killing ‘‘evil’’ people.
Motives for maternal filicide: Results from a study
with female forensic patients
16 of the 20 cases of filicide offenders were found to have psychiatric symptoms prior to their crime (Farooque & Ernst, 2003; Meyer & Oberman, 2001). Marks (1996) showed in his study of 45 mothers who killed their newborns that 77% used non wounding violence, such as suffocating and drowning. In contrast, women who killed older children tended to use more violent methods, such as killing by shaking, throwing to the ground, hitting, srangling, stabbing, and shooting
Motives for maternal filicide: Results from a study
with female forensic patients
who said there was talks of sending twins into care :)
-
who said there was talks of sending twins into care :)
I quote from the statement by Colins mother taken on 29/9/85
I remember just after Sheila's second illness, I spoke to June BAMBER on the phone. She conveyed to me then of her concern that through Sheila's illness, the boys might be put into foster homes.
-
On the contrary, on the lead up to the tragedy she had her anti psychotic medication reduced by half and there was talks of sending the twins into foster care.
Several other researchers have confirmed some of Resnick’s (1969, 1970) findings. For instance, Marleau, Roy, Laporte, Webanck, and Poulin (1995) examined a sample of 17 women who killed or attempted to kill their children, concluding that most of the women had a history of mental illness and killed for ‘‘altruistic’’ reasons. Rohde, Raic, Varchmin- Schultheib, and Marneros (1998) investigated 33 cases of child murder and found that 9 cases involved ‘‘extended suicide,’’ that is, a type of filicide whereby the mother experiences suicidal ideation, which is carried out on her children. Of the 9 cases, 78% involved mental illness, with 44% involving some form of psychosis (Rohde et al., 1998). These findings suggest that filicide involves a common theme of mental illness, and in many cases psychosis, which is much different than simply ‘‘not wanting’’ the child, as is usually the case with mothers in the neonaticide group.
Clinical features of parricide in patients with schizophrenia
In terms of denial, the psychotic individual exhibits a ‘‘complete lack of concern, anxiety, or emotional reaction about an immediate, serious, pressing need, conflict, or danger in [his or her] life’’ (Kernberg, 1984, p. 17). An example of denial includes a psychotic individual, who just murdered someone, with a complete lack of remorse or emotional reaction to the gravity of his or her action. Finally, with regard to omnipotence and devaluation, the psychotic individual experiences an exaggerated, inflated, grandiose self, and an emotionally degrading view of others (Kernberg, 1984). For example, the psychotic individual may believe that he or she is the ‘‘messiah,’’ or has some sort of special mission from God, and is responsible for killing ‘‘evil’’ people.
Motives for maternal filicide: Results from a study
with female forensic patients
16 of the 20 cases of filicide offenders were found to have psychiatric symptoms prior to their crime (Farooque & Ernst, 2003; Meyer & Oberman, 2001). Marks (1996) showed in his study of 45 mothers who killed their newborns that 77% used non wounding violence, such as suffocating and drowning. In contrast, women who killed older children tended to use more violent methods, such as killing by shaking, throwing to the ground, hitting, srangling, stabbing, and shooting
Motives for maternal filicide: Results from a study
with female forensic patients
There was no talk of sending the twins into foster care. At the time of the tragedy Colin had them more or less full time with Sheila taking them at weekends, which the boys very much looked forward to. You are falling for the myths elaborated by Jeremy that final evening with(conveniently) him being the only onlooker to later recall events.
As for her medication she showed all the signs of overdose, not the opposite.
-
I quote from the statement by Colins mother taken on 29/9/85
I remember just after Sheila's second illness, I spoke to June BAMBER on the phone. She conveyed to me then of her concern that through Sheila's illness, the boys might be put into foster homes.
This was speculation on June's part and possibly a half-hearted attempt to get Dorothy on board to bend Colin's ear to the Bambers having a greater role in their grandsons' welfare.
-
There was no talk of sending the twins into foster care. At the time of the tragedy Colin had them more or less full time with Sheila taking them at weekends, which the boys very much looked forward to. You are falling for the myths elaborated by Jeremy that final evening with(conveniently) him being the only onlooker to later recall events.
As for her medication she showed all the signs of overdose, not the opposite.
exactly steve,one can never believe the word of a convicted killer about that nights events
-
This was speculation on June's part and possibly a half-hearted attempt to get Dorothy on board to bend Colin's ear to the Bambers having a greater role in their grandsons' welfare.
None of this can be corroborated, Your speculating in order to try and downplay its significance
-
None of this can be corroborated, Your speculating in order to try and downplay its significance
David in the 1980s grandparents had no rights in law over their grandchildren whatsoever. I am downplaying nothing and take everything with an open mind as I'm sure members can vouch for by now.
-
David in the 1980s grandparents had no rights in law over their grandchildren whatsoever. I am downplaying nothing and take everything with an open mind as I'm sure members can vouch for by now.
If you read the quote from Colins mother, She sais they have concern about the children going into foster case because of her illness. Nowhere does it imply they were making the decision.
The important point is it corroborates Jeremy's version of events
-
If you read the quote from Colins mother, She sais they have concern about the children going into foster case because of her illness. Nowhere does it imply they were making the decision.
The important point is it corroborates Jeremy's version of events
No you are forgetting the first day at Goldhanger with Jeremy blubbering so loudly he could be heard from the street, though this grief dissipated as soon as he crossed the 21 miles to France. Colin knew then that the discussion about foster care was phoney, even if at that point he had not rumbled Jeremy.
-
If you read the quote from Colins mother, She sais they have concern about the children going into foster case because of her illness. Nowhere does it imply they were making the decision.
The important point is it corroborates Jeremy's version of events
all it corroborates is that jb may have known of this and used it to his advantage ,no way on earth can you prove that conversation took place that night
-
I quote from the statement by Colins mother taken on 29/9/85
I remember just after Sheila's second illness, I spoke to June BAMBER on the phone. She conveyed to me then of her concern that through Sheila's illness, the boys might be put into foster homes.
have you got the statement with her signature on it,or can you post the link to it :)
-
None of this can be corroborated, Your speculating in order to try and downplay its significance
No, you're up playing it and - just as Jeremy did.
-
Jeremy didn't " play anything up ". If you read Cal's book,it has connotations of him having been a " go-between " in the family,particularly when his mother repeated " why can't you be like Jeremy " as she'd referred to Sheila and her marriage to Colin,then the divorce not long after. The anger and guilt that Sheila was constantly made to feel knew no bounds,as even Jeremy felt the guilt by his mother repeating these comparisons. This always drove Sheila mad with anger-----------as it naturally would when a parent always makes comparisons.
-
Jeremy didn't " play anything up ". If you read Cal's book,it has connotations of him having been a " go-between " in the family,particularly when his mother repeated " why can't you be like Jeremy " as she'd referred to Sheila and her marriage to Colin,then the divorce not long after. The anger and guilt that Sheila was constantly made to feel knew no bounds,as even Jeremy felt the guilt by his mother repeating these comparisons. This always drove Sheila mad with anger-----------as it naturally would when a parent always makes comparisons.
Please can you provide examples of those times during which Sheila was "mad with anger" beyond what may be considered reasonable.
-
Please can you provide examples of those times during which Sheila was "mad with anger" beyond what may be considered reasonable.
By the sounds of things, pretty well during the time when Jeremy was still at home and whenever Sheila visited. Her and her mother seemed like a red rag to a bull every time they came into contact with each other.
Reference to this particular episode is on page 56 of CAL's book.
I do a lot of reading between lines as well as reading what the author writes,to get a fuller and more clearer picture----------I don't do " skimming " like a certain person did.
-
By the sounds of things, pretty well during the time when Jeremy was still at home and whenever Sheila visited. Her and her mother seemed like a red rag to a bull every time they came into contact with each other.
Reference to this particular episode is on page 56 of CAL's book.
I do a lot of reading between lines as well as reading what the author writes,to get a fuller and more clearer picture----------I don't do " skimming " like a certain person did.
Lookout, the very last thing that an author of "facts" will want/NEED are lines which can be read between!!!!!!!!! I'm just trying to imagine how far I'd have got in college had i told my tutors that they were supposed to "read between the lines".
-
Lookout, the very last thing that an author of "facts" will want/NEED are lines which can be read between!!!!!!!!! I'm just trying to imagine how far I'd have got in college had i told my tutors that they were supposed to "read between the lines".
For goodness sake. So this is now yet another hanging offence just because I happen to be FAR MORE imaginative than yourself ? I obviously have a much broader out look on life than you also and DON'T do things by the book or what others do or think. Am I allowed to think for myself or do I have to abide by your rules now ?
My English Literature examination was to read a book then IN MY OWN WORDS re-write it !! Get it ??
I passed with flying colours ! A.S. level. Funny,that !
-
For goodness sake. So this is now yet another hanging offence just because I happen to be FAR MORE imaginative than yourself ? I obviously have a much broader out look on life than you also and DON'T do things by the book or what others do or think. Am I allowed to think for myself or do I have to abide by your rules now ?
My English Literature examination was to read a book then IN MY OWN WORDS re-write it !! Get it ??
I passed with flying colours ! A.S. level. Funny,that !
Which is perfectly fine when it's a work of fiction which is to be rewritten and requires imagination. Unless specifically asked for, it most definitely would NOT be as fine if it had been an historical/FACTUAL work in which one's own imagination has no part.
-
Which is perfectly fine when it's a work of fiction which is to be rewritten and requires imagination. Unless specifically asked for, it most definitely would NOT be as fine if it had been an historical/FACTUAL work in which one's own imagination has no part.
What are ALL the Bamber books, but FICTION ? Because we DON'T know the true facts !!
-
What are ALL the Bamber books, but FICTION ? Because we DON'T know the true facts !!
You spend enough time presenting them as fact, Lookout. You certainly have quoted CP's drivel as such on numerous occasions, despite being reminded, that as she wasn't there, how could she possibly have known a particular "fact".
-
You spend enough time presenting them as fact, Lookout. You certainly have quoted CP's drivel as such on numerous occasions, despite being reminded, that as she wasn't there, how could she possibly have known a particular "fact".
None of them were there were they ? So one uses their imagination once they've got a briefing on the backgrounds of the families,in which everyone's versions are different-----------the same as on here,so why make such a big deal ? Not one book is the same as another.Why ? Because authors versions differ also depending on whether they see/find him guilty or not.
CAL also got carried away as well as CP did as both made prize bloomers in their books,but it's left to the reader as to whether they believe what's written and also depends which " side of the fence " you're on too.
-
None of them were there were they ? So one uses their imagination once they've got a briefing on the backgrounds of the families,in which everyone's versions are different-----------the same as on here,so why make such a big deal ? Not one book is the same as another.Why ? Because authors versions differ also depending on whether they see/find him guilty or not.
CAL also got carried away as well as CP did as both made prize bloomers in their books,but it's left to the reader as to whether they believe what's written and also depends which " side of the fence " you're on too.
I'm delighted you now seem to have taken on board, that from the time Colin left, there is no one who can verify what transpired en famille, Jeremy's input, according to how one sees it, is questionable. Other than that there are the two phone calls received on the night of the massacre.
I'm not making "a big deal". I'm simply asking you to provide a source for your statement that a specific thing "always drove Sheila mad with anger" to which your only reply was to say that you "read between the lines".
-
By the sounds of things, pretty well during the time when Jeremy was still at home and whenever Sheila visited. Her and her mother seemed like a red rag to a bull every time they came into contact with each other.
Reference to this particular episode is on page 56 of CAL's book.
I do a lot of reading between lines as well as reading what the author writes,to get a fuller and more clearer picture----------I don't do " skimming " like a certain person did.
And the source for the "Why can't you be more like Jeremy" is none other than Jeremy himself ;D ;D ;D ;D.
Reading between the lines is simply making assumptions, which is why you get things wrong.
-
I'm delighted you now seem to have taken on board, that from the time Colin left, there is no one who can verify what transpired en famille, Jeremy's input, according to how one sees it, is questionable. Other than that there are the two phone calls received on the night of the massacre.
I'm not making "a big deal". I'm simply asking you to provide a source for your statement that a specific thing "always drove Sheila mad with anger" to which your only reply was to say that you "read between the lines".
The reason why Lookout won't say who the source for the comment was, is because it was Jeremy!
-
And the source for the "Why can't you be more like Jeremy" is none other than Jeremy himself ;D ;D ;D ;D.
Reading between the lines is simply making assumptions, which is why you get things wrong.
So CAL used it in her book---------why ? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D To fill a few more pages of drivel and hearsay ?
-
So CAL used it in her book---------why ? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D To fill a few more pages of drivel and hearsay ?
Unless you hadn't noticed, th book is about Bamber - of course she is going to use what he says. Why didn't you just say who made the quote?
-
The reason why Lookout won't say who the source for the comment was, is because it was Jeremy!
CAL couldn't very well ask the family,could she ? It's one person's word against the other and because I read between the lines I can understand that Jeremy told the truth,judging by the whole gamut which was " family life " at WHF ! No different to other lives,theirs wasn't unique at all.
-
The reason why Lookout won't say who the source for the comment was, is because it was Jeremy!
Quelle surprise!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D
-
CAL couldn't very well ask the family,could she ? It's one person's word against the other and because I read between the lines I can understand that Jeremy told the truth,judging by the whole gamut which was " family life " at WHF ! No different to other lives,theirs wasn't unique at all.
His word means nothing if it can't be verified.
-
I'm delighted you now seem to have taken on board, that from the time Colin left, there is no one who can verify what transpired en famille, Jeremy's input, according to how one sees it, is questionable. Other than that there are the two phone calls received on the night of the massacre.
I'm not making "a big deal". I'm simply asking you to provide a source for your statement that a specific thing "always drove Sheila mad with anger" to which your only reply was to say that you "read between the lines".
I've already given you the source---------page 56 of CAL's book ::)
-
His word means nothing if it can't be verified.
Same goes for the books which have been written,doesn't it ?
-
CAL couldn't very well ask the family,could she ? It's one person's word against the other and because I read between the lines I can understand that Jeremy told the truth,judging by the whole gamut which was " family life " at WHF ! No different to other lives,theirs wasn't unique at all.
I'm simply not convinced that any author, when presenting "facts", intends for their lines to be read between when they're perfectly capable of stating exactly what they want the reader to understand.
-
I'm simply not convinced that any author, when presenting "facts", intends for their lines to be read between when they're perfectly capable of stating exactly what they want the reader to understand.
Then what's the point in writing a book unless you've got the full facts of a TRUE crime ? Each author has turned their script around to their OWN way of thinking depending which author you TRUST. Why bother writing a book at all when these people claim that Jeremy is guilty,it doesn't make sense to me ?
The books are all biased towards guilt anyway,so that's what the reader s going to take as read,isn't it ?
Wouldn't you need such a thing as imagination when reading,in order to give opposing thoughts ? Or does EVERYONE believe what's in front of them ? It would seem so.
Yes,I give the odd quote,but it doesn't mean to say I believe it, I'm literally copying what's written. I don't need to !!
-
Jeremy didn't " play anything up ". If you read Cal's book,it has connotations of him having been a " go-between " in the family,particularly when his mother repeated " why can't you be like Jeremy " as she'd referred to Sheila and her marriage to Colin,then the divorce not long after. The anger and guilt that Sheila was constantly made to feel knew no bounds,as even Jeremy felt the guilt by his mother repeating these comparisons. This always drove Sheila mad with anger-----------as it naturally would when a parent always makes comparisons.
after what bw said about jb and lets face it she was around the family through working there.anyway jb would be the last person they would accept as a go between,was cal there when june said why cant you be like jeremy,cause if not than its just hearsay,why should cal be believed she wasnt there
-
after what bw said about jb and lets face it she was around the family through working there.anyway jb would be the last person they would accept as a go between,was cal there when june said why cant you be like jeremy,cause if not than its just hearsay,why should cal be believed she wasnt there
The whole case was built on hearsay. That's why we're on the forum.
-
The whole case was built on hearsay. That's why we're on the forum.
i disagree lookout,the case is clear cut by studying the evidence that remains :)
-
Same goes for the books which have been written,doesn't it ?
of course it doesn't! None of the authors have anything to gain by supporting guilt over innocence. CAL's book is very well referenced and everything she quotes can be checked out. I have no doubt Jeremy told her the quotes, but that doesn't mean they are true.
-
of course it doesn't! None of the authors have anything to gain by supporting guilt over innocence. CAL's book is very well referenced and everything she quotes can be checked out. I have no doubt Jeremy told her the quotes, but that doesn't mean they are true.
jb is a master at manipluation ;)
-
The whole case was built on hearsay. That's why we're on the forum.
june telling her brother, jb was trying to get sheila to load bullets into the thingy,hearsay i know but what was it all about
-
jb is a master at manipluation ;)
But not everyone falls for it - she certainly didn't.
-
No,I don't see Jeremy as a manipulator at all. There are one or two here who try their best to be.
June was the manipulator. I've known a lot of people like her who try and " mold " their siblings in the way that " they " want them to be both in work and relationships,as June didn't like either partners of her children for starters.
-
No,I don't see Jeremy as a manipulator at all. There are one or two here who try their best to be.
June was the manipulator. I've known a lot of people like her who try and " mold " their siblings in the way that " they " want them to be both in work and relationships,as June didn't like either partners of her children for starters.
In order to know people 'like her; you would have to know 'her' - we have only anecdotal info in respect to June. You may know people who support what you imagine June was like but as you didn't know June, you don't know anyone like her.
-
In order to know people 'like her; you would have to know 'her' - we have only anecdotal info in respect to June. You may know people who support what you imagine June was like but as you didn't know June, you don't know anyone like her.
Isn't knowing of people like her, a clue/insight into the type of person she was ? Doesn't anyone else get any idea at all ? You obviously didn't get out and about much then.
Of course,when the ONLY focus is on and about Jeremy,it isn't surprising that nobody else is mentioned ::)
-
Isn't knowing of people like her, a clue/insight into the type of person she was ? Doesn't anyone else get any idea at all ? You obviously didn't get out and about much then.
Of course,when the ONLY focus is on and about Jeremy,it isn't surprising that nobody else is mentioned ::)
Lookout, the person YOU insist she is -and you DIDN'T know her- is nothing like the person described by those who DID know her.
-
Isn't knowing of people like her, a clue/insight into the type of person she was ? Doesn't anyone else get any idea at all ? You obviously didn't get out and about much then.
Of course,when the ONLY focus is on and about Jeremy,it isn't surprising that nobody else is mentioned ::)
I've travelled all over the world Lookout and mixed with all kinds of people from all various nationalities - so I 'got out' quite a lot and still do! ::).
The focus is on Jeremy for obvious reasons even though you try to shift that focus wherever possible. ;D ;D
-
Lookout, the person YOU insist she is -and you DIDN'T know her- is nothing like the person described by those who DID know her.
True Jane, I have yet to hear anyone describe June as Annie Oakley ;D ;D ;D ;D
-
Lookout, the person YOU insist she is -and you DIDN'T know her- is nothing like the person described by those who DID know her.
Exactly ! Jekyll and Hyde ! No wonder Sheila got the blame when most knew her mother !!
-
Exactly ! Jekyll and Hyde ! No wonder Sheila got the blame when most knew her mother !!
You're painting a picture of June that you want to see.
-
You're painting a picture of June that you want to see.
Anything to detract from Jeremy.
-
Anything to detract from Jeremy.
There you go you see----------only Jeremy. There's no smoke without fire !
-
There you go you see----------only Jeremy. There's no smoke without fire !
Who else would you have us mention when we believe that Jeremy is guilty? Shall we just pick someone at random that has nothing to do with the case?
-
True Jane, I have yet to hear anyone describe June as Annie Oakley ;D ;D ;D ;D
or mar barker :)
-
Who else would you have us mention when we believe that Jeremy is guilty? Shall we just pick someone at random that has nothing to do with the case?
You're right,I wouldn't/shouldn't have expected you to have gone any further than Jeremy's guilt ! Silly me.
-
You're right,I wouldn't/shouldn't have expected you to have gone any further than Jeremy's guilt ! Silly me.
not true lookout, i also blame crispy and the 2 teddys and the hunched back man :)
-
You're right,I wouldn't/shouldn't have expected you to have gone any further than Jeremy's guilt ! Silly me.
I have gone much further than you because I have looked at this from both sides. When you're formulating your personal insults, I suggest you give them more thought!
-
I have gone much further than you because I have looked at this from both sides. When you're formulating your personal insults, I suggest you give them more thought!
Insult my intelligence by telling me that I don't know what psychopathy is-------and you get it back.Fair enough ?
-
Insult my intelligence by telling me that I don't know what psychopathy is-------and you get it back.Fair enough ?
You don't. Personal insults don't bother me Lookout - but they do show that your argument is weak.
-
caroline does have a degree in it,lookout,her views must be respected
-
caroline does have a degree in it,lookout,her views must be respected
Did you know that one has to give respect in order to gain it ? Perhaps not.
-
Did you know that one has to give respect in order to gain it ? Perhaps not.
yes its the way i was brought up
-
yes its the way i was brought up
Perhaps you'd better put it into practice then.
-
Perhaps you'd better put it into practice then.
sorry i cant practice it ,just to please you :)
-
sorry i cant practice it ,just to please you :)
Something else I didn't expect of you.!
-
Something else I didn't expect of you.!
lets get back to the topic :)will try and do what you asked
-
Did you know that one has to give respect in order to gain it ? Perhaps not.
No, one had to earn it to receive it.
-
No, one had to earn it to receive it.
ABSOLUTELY, Caroline. It's a question of treating others with the respect one wishes to be treated with.
-
No, one had to earn it to receive it.
yes that sounds right,caroline :)