Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: sherlock on January 30, 2016, 01:40:AM
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Was there a hitman or two ?
If you are sure Jeremy is guilty then please explain :
Why are you sure there was no hitman ?
Lets assume Malcolm McDonalds alibi was true.
It is possible McDonald arranged other hitmen and a very good alibi - is it not ?
It is possible Jeremy hired other hitmen and simply lied about the name of the hitman to Julie - is it not ?
What evidence is there that Jeremy did the deed himself ?
You may think there is enough evidence of Jeremys involvement.
But why are you SO sure that there was not some truth in the hitman allegation ?
Surely there is a real lack of evidence that Jeremy was physically there during the killings ?
Why are you so sure he did the deed himself ?
Are you convinced one or more other killers haven't escaped entirely to keep on killing others ?
If so please explain your reasoning in detail ...
He told Julie the absolute complete truth - with this one exception - are you sure the bit about a hitman was not also based on truth ?
If there were others involved it might explain Bambers inability to make a confession ... They ALL confess eventually for a variety of reasons- why hasn't Bamber ?
By the way Essex Police have confirmed to me that there is a current Essex Police investigation into the Bamber case.
What this means is anybody's guess.
Any clues on this anyone ?
Sherlocks back as i am still puzzled by this case - so hello everybody !
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The evidence is consistent with Jeremy being involved so there is no question of his guilt. He could very well have involved a third party to do the dirty deed but there is no evidence to support it. That said however, there is every possibility that a third party knew of the plan ahead of time and could also have faced a conspiracy to murder charge.
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The evidence is consistent with Jeremy being involved so there is no question of his guilt. He could very well have involved a third party to do the dirty deed but there is no evidence to support it. That said however, there is every possibility that a third party knew of the plan ahead of time and could also have faced a conspiracy to murder charge.
The evidence to support it includes
1)Jeremys statement to Julie,
2)a police officer thinking they may have seen movement in a window,
3)a police officer thinking they saw a rifle in the window that was moved by someone other than Jeremy,
4) a possible sighting of a hunched up man leaving the scene,
5) lack of marks on Jeremy,
6) no violence at all in Jeremys past,
7)some people say he did not have it in him to shoot people personally,
8) no one saw Jeremy enter or leave his cottage at the relevant times
9) a possible sighting of a number of vehicles parked outside his cottage on the evening of the murders
10) He certainly knew some very dodgy people in more than one country
any other possible evidence to add to the list any one ?
When you say "Third party" do you mean Julie ?
If not could you name who else you suspect of possibly having pre knowledge of the crime ?
I hope you agree this is worth thinking about very seriously
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When you say "Third party" do you mean Julie ?
If not could you name who else you suspect of possibly having pre knowledge of the crime ?
I hope you agree this is worth thinking about very seriously
I'm afraid I can't say for legal reasons.
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I'm afraid I can't say for legal reasons.
are your legal reasons
a) fear of being sued by this person ?
b) because of ongoing relevant legal proceedings ?
c) you are bound by confidentiality ?
d) another legal reason ?
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if you are going to use that theory how do you know there was not someone there threatening Neville to make the call and they just wanted Jeremy at the house as well.
Everyone is willing to believe Jeremy was clever enough to stage a murder suicide - how do you know there was no other person clever enough to do the same thing ?
Hence Why the call did not say about shots - just trying to get him to the house.
You may say lack of motive - but if we don't know who was responsible how do we know the motive ?
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"By the way Essex Police have confirmed to me that there is a current Essex Police investigation into the Bamber case"
I have heard something similar from an independent source.
But I am not hopeful that it will led to anything.
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The evidence to support it includes
1)Jeremys statement to Julie,
2)a police officer thinking they may have seen movement in a window,
3)a police officer thinking they saw a rifle in the window that was moved by someone other than Jeremy,
4) a possible sighting of a hunched up man leaving the scene,
5) lack of marks on Jeremy,
6) no violence at all in Jeremys past,
7)some people say he did not have it in him to shoot people personally,
8) no one saw Jeremy enter or leave his cottage at the relevant times
9) a possible sighting of a number of vehicles parked outside his cottage on the evening of the murders
10) He certainly knew some very dodgy people in more than one country
any other possible evidence to add to the list any one ?
When you say "Third party" do you mean Julie ?
If not could you name who else you suspect of possibly having pre knowledge of the crime ?
I hope you agree this is worth thinking about very seriously
If you think the supposed sighting of a movement in the wondow is indicative of a hitman - you'll need to explain how this person got out without being seen.
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if he hired a hitman hes still guilty.
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if you are going to use that theory how do you know there was not someone there threatening Neville to make the call and they just wanted Jeremy at the house as well.
Everyone is willing to believe Jeremy was clever enough to stage a murder suicide - how do you know there was no other person clever enough to do the same thing ?
Hence Why the call did not say about shots - just trying to get him to the house.
You may say lack of motive - but if we don't know who was responsible how do we know the motive ?
The reaso this theory falls flat, is because the spoof caller couldn't know for sure if Jeremy would come to WHF or if he would call the police. Such a person would make themselves a sitting duck with a house full of bodies.
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if you are going to use that theory how do you know there was not someone there threatening Neville to make the call and they just wanted Jeremy at the house as well.
Everyone is willing to believe Jeremy was clever enough to stage a murder suicide - how do you know there was no other person clever enough to do the same thing ?
Hence Why the call did not say about shots - just trying to get him to the house.
You may say lack of motive - but if we don't know who was responsible how do we know the motive ?
A very interesting theory but i think this is better discussed in a different thread.
This thread i hope is purely to draw out from "guilters" why they are sure Jeremy did not hire a hitman.
So far no "guilters" are prepared to state they are sure of this.
So no "guilters" are prepared to say they are SURE Jeremy did the deed himself ?
They say they know from the evidence he is guilty of being responsible.
They do not however seem to be sure he did it himself.
Like i say i hope we can keep this thread to this narrow discussion
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The reason this theory falls flat, is because the spoof caller couldn't know for sure if Jeremy would come to WHF or if he would call the police. Such a person would make themselves a sitting duck with a house full of bodies.
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if you are going to use that theory how do you know there was not someone there threatening Neville to make the call and they just wanted Jeremy at the house as well.
Everyone is willing to believe Jeremy was clever enough to stage a murder suicide - how do you know there was no other person clever enough to do the same thing ?
Hence Why the call did not say about shots - just trying to get him to the house.
You may say lack of motive - but if we don't know who was responsible how do we know the motive ?
i thought it could be a spoof caller as well but its hard to explian how they would of got away in time.
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i thought it could be a spoof caller as well but its hard to explian how they would of got away in time.
Thank you nugs, least you can see this as a problem. If he wanted to kill Jeremy too, why wait until he's gone home? But Jeremy said his 'father' called - I doubt he would be mistaken by the voice of his own dad.
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"By the way Essex Police have confirmed to me that there is a current Essex Police investigation into the Bamber case"
I have heard something similar from an independent source.
But I am not hopeful that it will led to anything.
Thank you for that.
It is a fact there is an ongoing investigation.
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If you think the supposed sighting of a movement in the wondow is indicative of a hitman - you'll need to explain how this person got out without being seen.
Surely if Jeremy had hired the hitman/hitmen he would have told them how to enter and leave the property ?
Anything Jeremy knew or could do - he could explain to others how to do.
Does this explain it to you satisfactorily ?
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The reaso this theory falls flat, is because the spoof caller couldn't know for sure if Jeremy would come to WHF or if he would call the police. Such a person would make themselves a sitting duck with a house full of bodies.
As i stated above i think this is better discussed in a different thread.
I hope this thread can stick to the very narrow points raised in the original thread post.
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if he hired a hitman hes still guilty.
Absolutely.
But the problem then is we still have one or more other killers still free to kill others ...
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The evidence is consistent with Jeremy being involved so there is no question of his guilt. He could very well have involved a third party to do the dirty deed but there is no evidence to support it. That said however, there is every possibility that a third party knew of the plan ahead of time and could also have faced a conspiracy to murder charge.
That would have depended on how many heard Jeremy's phrase " I could kill my parents " !! Which needn't necessarily have been the one who'd said it who carried it out.
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i thought it could be a spoof caller as well but its hard to explian how they would of got away in time.
slightly off topic but there were reports of a hunched man leaving the area after Police arrived.
If true then they would not have left until after they realised Jeremy had turned up with the Police.
With the Police keeping a distance it would not have been difficult to slip away in the dark
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thats a very good point as the hunched figure doesnt seem to have been traced.
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That would have depended on how many heard Jeremy's phrase " I could kill my parents " !! Which needn't necessarily have been the one who'd said it who carried it out.
I think John is saying a third party had detailed pre knowledge of Jeremys plans.
Over hearing " I could kill my parents " is not what he is reffering to here.
He seems to have some very specific knowledge about a third party ...
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I think John is saying a third party had detailed pre knowledge of Jeremys plans.
Over hearing " I could kill my parents " is not what he is reffering to here.
He seems to have some very specific knowledge about a third party ...
Talk about putting words in someone's mouth!! John expressed an OPINION and he also expressed that he would like to keep that OPINION to himself. You SEEM to be jumping the gun!!
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Absolutely.
But the problem then is we still have one or more other killers still free to kill others ...
personaly i think the police came up with the hitman theory becouse at first they were trying to fit the evdence around the phonecall.
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Surely if Jeremy had hired the hitman/hitmen he would have told them how to enter and leave the property ?
Anything Jeremy knew or could do - he could explain to others how to do.
Does this explain it to you satisfactorily ?
It certainly doesn't explain why said "hit man" hung around until the police got there OR how he was paid.
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well if we follow sherlocks theory about it being a spoof call to lure jeremy over there he wouldent of known that jeremy was going to bring the police with him.
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Surely if Jeremy had hired the hitman/hitmen he would have told them how to enter and leave the property ?
Anything Jeremy knew or could do - he could explain to others how to do.
Does this explain it to you satisfactorily ?
No it doesn't - are you saying that someone (the hit man) was prepared to STILL be inside WHF when the police turned up and rely on advice from Jeremy on how to get out unseen by police waiting outside?? What kind of an idiot would you expect to agree to that? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Talk about putting words in someone's mouth!! John expressed an OPINION and he also expressed that he would like to keep that OPINION to himself. You SEEM to be jumping the gun!!
Hopefully John will enlighten us shortly.
He did say "there is every possibility that a third party knew of the plan ahead of time and could also have faced a conspiracy to murder charge."
He then said when asked who he meant "I'm afraid I can't say for legal reasons."
Sounds to me like he knows something ...
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A very interesting theory but i think this is better discussed in a different thread.
This thread i hope is purely to draw out from "guilters" why they are sure Jeremy did not hire a hitman.
So far no "guilters" are prepared to state they are sure of this.
So no "guilters" are prepared to say they are SURE Jeremy did the deed himself ?
They say they know from the evidence he is guilty of being responsible.
They do not however seem to be sure he did it himself.
Like i say i hope we can keep this thread to this narrow discussion
Just so you know, I am SURE Jeremy did NOT hire a hit man and am quite certain he did the crime HIMSELF.
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No it doesn't - are you saying that someone (the hit man) was prepared to STILL be inside WHF when the police turned up and rely on advice from Jeremy on how to get out unseen by police waiting outside?? What kind of an idiot would you expect to agree to that? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
they wouldent nescarly have known that the police were going to come.
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slightly off topic but there were reports of a hunched man leaving the area after Police arrived.
If true then they would not have left until after they realised Jeremy had turned up with the Police.
With the Police keeping a distance it would not have been difficult to slip away in the dark
No there weren't!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D That was a claim made here along with many, many others that are total BS.
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Hopefully John will enlighten us shortly.
He did say "there is every possibility that a third party knew of the plan ahead of time and could also have faced a conspiracy to murder charge."
He then said when asked who he meant "I'm afraid I can't say for legal reasons."
Sounds to me like he knows something ...
Sounds to me like you're stirring. John gave his opinion and said he didn't want to elaborate - that should be enough.
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they wouldent nescarly have known that the police were going to come.
This is making less and less sense as it goes along. So how would a hit man killing all of the family help Jeremy? He'd still need an alibi so would still need the phone call to distance himself from the crime scene. Surely the hit man would have to KNOW that Jeremy intended to call the police (otherwise there is no alibi). So why would he wait until they turned up? Just so he could dance at the window before miraculously escaping undetected? Had Jeremy not told him he was calling the police and as a result, the hit man ende up being caught - Jeremy would STILL be busted. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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if jeremy hired a hitman then theres no evedence to say the hitman did stick around to wait for the police.
if we go on sherlocks secound thory that it was somone trying to lure jeremy ovrr there then they wouldent know jeremy was going to bring the police.
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if jeremy hired a hitman then theres no evedence to say the hitman did stick around to wait for the police.
if we go on sherlocks secound thory that it was somone trying to lure jeremy ovrr there then they wouldent know jeremy was going to bring the police.
Erm, with a "lure" like "your sister has gone mad and has got hold of a gun" there are few, if ANY, who wouldn't call the police.
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Well seeing that Sheila had still been alive AFTER the supposed sighting of a REPORTED hunched-up person, he/she hadn't done a very good job of killing her ??
This sighting had been written in a national newspaper by journalist Kim Sengupta, at the time. No follow up was ever recorded.
Why bother when everyone had set their sights on Jeremy ?
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Well seeing that Sheila had still been alive AFTER the supposed sighting of a REPORTED hunched-up person, he/she hadn't done a very good job of killing her ??
This sighting had been written in a national newspaper by journalist Kim Sengupta, at the time. No follow up was ever recorded.
Why bother when everyone had set their sights on Jeremy ?
Especially when we all know that everything printed is gospel truth. NOT!!! Lookout, if this wasn't about Jeremy, you, more than the rest of us, are cynical and mistrusting enough, to say exactly what I've just said.
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Erm, with a "lure" like "your sister has gone mad and has got hold of a gun" there are few, if ANY, who wouldn't call the police.
some people might not do they might think they could handel it on there own.
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some people might not do they might think they could handel it on there own.
So you don't think it's one hell of a risk to take after you've just killed 5 people?
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not if your intending to kill 6.
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I wonder how many times Jeremy had helped his father to restrain Sheila ? Seemingly it wasn't a rare occurrence and one in which " sanity " had been contained on previous occasions without further interventions.
One example of Sheila's " wilfullness " was when 3 medics were unable to restrain her,which tells me that the medication wasn't working then.
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if jeremy hired a hitman then theres no evedence to say the hitman did stick around to wait for the police.
if we go on sherlocks secound thory that it was somone trying to lure jeremy ovrr there then they wouldent know jeremy was going to bring the police.
Actually, Luring Jeremy over was Jan's suggestion. However .....
OK First theory - Jeremy hires a hitman;
So how would a hit man killing all of the family help Jeremy? He'd still need an alibi so would still need the phone call to distance himself from the crime scene. Surely the hit man would have to KNOW that Jeremy intended to call the police (otherwise there is no alibi). So why would he wait until they turned up? Just so he could dance at the window before miraculously escaping undetected? Had Jeremy not told him he was calling the police and as a result, the hit man ende up being caught - Jeremy would STILL be busted.
Someone lures Jeremy over to WHF in order to kill him too by telling him "Sheila has gone carzy, she's got the gun";
The reason this theory falls flat, is because the spoof caller couldn't know for sure if Jeremy would come to WHF or if he would call the police. Such a person would make themselves a sitting duck with a house full of bodies.
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I wonder how many times Jeremy had helped his father to restrain Sheila ? Seemingly it wasn't a rare occurrence and one in which " sanity " had been contained on previous occasions without further interventions.
One example of Sheila's " wilfullness " was when 3 medics were unable to restrain her,which tells me that the medication wasn't working then.
Oh Lookout! How many more times must this be said? She wasn't taking her meds when she had the second breakdown. THAT is precisely why they decided to inject them.
There is nothing to suggest it wasn't a rare occurrence OTHER than she was only hospitalized TWICE. If previous "blips" had been contained by Nevill's soothing tones, they were hardly likely to have required Jeremy's input -even if he was available- and clearly weren't serious enough for professional assistance.
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Oh Lookout! How many more times must this be said? She wasn't taking her meds when she had the second breakdown. THAT is precisely why they decided to inject them.
There is nothing to suggest it wasn't a rare occurrence OTHER than she was only hospitalized TWICE. If previous "blips" had been contained by Nevill's soothing tones, they were hardly likely to have required Jeremy's input -even if he was available- and clearly weren't serious enough for professional assistance.
I'm talking about meds prior to her injections when she was supposed to have been initially assessed.
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I'm talking about meds prior to her injections when she was supposed to have been initially assessed.
I wasn't aware that details of her first breakdown had ever been released but I'm perfectly convinced she wouldn't have been on anti psychotics BEFORE she'd been diagnosed as being psychotic. I think you're WELL aware that part of the reason for the relapse and second admission to St Andrew's was because she wasn't taking the meds prescribed after the FIRST admission.
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However,getting back to the hitman theory,I'd doubt very much that Jeremy would have wanted to have come out of prison if he'd been involved in such an activity and because he'd allegedly used the name of MM,Jeremy will be lucky to remain alive once released for having involved him.
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However,getting back to the hitman theory,I'd doubt very much that Jeremy would have wanted to have come out of prison if he'd been involved in such an activity and because he'd allegedly used the name of MM,Jeremy will be lucky to remain alive once released for having involved him.
He certainly will be. He didn't get away with it but he tried very hard to implicate MM, who, if still alive, could, IF Jeremy is ever released, see the need to revenge himself.
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No hitman. Nothing known adds up to a hitman.
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No hitman. Nothing known adds up to a hitman.
Just another straw to go on clutching at, ie "If it please m'lud, he has to be released coz there might have been a hit man wot dun it".
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Actually, Luring Jeremy over was Jan's suggestion. However .....
OK First theory - Jeremy hires a hitman;
So how would a hit man killing all of the family help Jeremy? He'd still need an alibi so would still need the phone call to distance himself from the crime scene. Surely the hit man would have to KNOW that Jeremy intended to call the police (otherwise there is no alibi). So why would he wait until they turned up? Just so he could dance at the window before miraculously escaping undetected? Had Jeremy not told him he was calling the police and as a result, the hit man ende up being caught - Jeremy would STILL be busted.
Someone lures Jeremy over to WHF in order to kill him too by telling him "Sheila has gone carzy, she's got the gun";
The reason this theory falls flat, is because the spoof caller couldn't know for sure if Jeremy would come to WHF or if he would call the police. Such a person would make themselves a sitting duck with a house full of bodies.
no a spoof caller couldent know for a fact he would but if the said caller intended to shoot jeremy as well there would be no other chance to shoot him and blame it on sheila.
and the spoof caller might think that he knows jeremy well enough to predict what hell do.
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no a spoof caller couldent know for a fact he would but if the said caller intended to shoot jeremy as well there would be no other chance to shoot him and blame it on sheila.
and the spoof caller might think that he knows jeremy well enough to predict what hell do.
Come on Nugs, I can't believe that you believe the above? IF such a person wanted to kill everyone, they would have chosen a time when they were all at the farm. It would FAR to risky to believe that Jeremy might not call the police and in any event - he did so where did the hit man go? ??? ??? ??? ???
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i dont belive or disblive im just considreing it as a posbility.
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i dont belive or disblive im just considreing it as a posbility.
And?
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i dont belive or disblive im just considreing it as a posbility.
Hm, but a somewhat extreme and fanciful one, along the lines of the theory of Nevill's war time escapades coming back to haunt him.
A THOUGHT! What was said hit man hoping to gain from the deaths of 3 adults, 2 children and a potential if he could get him to play ball, and who was going to pay him?
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what was he hoping to gain well that would depend who he was.
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what was he hoping to gain well that would depend who he was.
It sounds as if your consideration of it "being a possibility" is limited.
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Just so you know, I am SURE Jeremy did NOT hire a hit man and am quite certain he did the crime HIMSELF.
Caroline - i too would really love to be sure that Jeremy did not hire a hitman and if he did the crime himself then i would like to be sure of that fact.
So please help me.
Please explain your reasons in detail so that i and others on here can perhaps come closer to understanding the truth ...
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As already pointed out, it doesn't really matter if Jeremy commissioned the crime and had someone else carry it out as he is guilty by association and the crime is one of joint enterprise.
Only Jeremy knew how to get into and out of the farmhouse without leaving any evidence of an incursion. Jeremy implicated his sister from the off and the crimescene was made to look like an inside job but it wasn't. Jeremy could very well have passed that information onto a third party or even have let them in while he stood guard outside, only he knows the truth of what really happened.
As far as anyone else having prior knowledge of the crime is concerned you only have to look at the facts.
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Everyone knows Bamber didn't hire a hit man.
He didn't mix in the sort of circles where he would find someone who would do the job. Who does ?
Bamber didn't have the finance to pay someone. A hit man would want a substantial payment in advance. The hit man was going to kill five people, two women and two children
If Bamber started asking people about where to find a hit man, this would be mentioned to the police by those people after the massacre.
Bamber had the motivation, knowledge and courage to carry out the massacre. He was confident enough to outside WHF with the police, a few minutes after the massacre.
The crime was committed mainly for inheritance. Why wluld Bamber pay out a slice of this to a hit man, if he could do it himself.
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Everyone knows Bamber didn't hire a hit man.
He didn't mix in the sort of circles where he would find someone who would do the job. Who does ?
Bamber didn't have the finance to pay someone. A hit man would want a substantial payment in advance. The hit man was going to kill five people, two women and two children
If Bamber started asking people about where to find a hit man, this would be mentioned to the police by those people after the massacre.
Bamber had the motivation, knowledge and courage to carry out the massacre. He was confident enough to outside WHF with the police, a few minutes after the massacre.
The crime was committed mainly for inheritance. Why wluld Bamber pay out a slice of this to a hit man, if he could do it himself.
With respect not everyone knows Bamber didn't hire a hit man - for example i don't know that and i am sure i am not the only one
No one knows ALL the circles Bamber mixed in - for example who did he mix with in Australia ?
We know he dealt drugs - but can you really say you or any one else knows who much about the characters that supplied him ? He definately had dealings with a fair amount of assorted criminals probably in more than one country - in short NO ONE knows who he knew ...
I agree 2,000 would not even cover a deposit on a hit - coincidence it is the same amount sent to him in Australia though ...
What if for example Brett was the hitman - he would not have needed an advance payment would he ? And if it was Brett he wouldn't tell the police afterwards would he ? And it would prevent Bamber from confessing all these years - possibly - and he maybe wouldn't mind sharing the windfall with Brett - after all they were obviously very close best friends and after the killings he was happy to spend lavishly with Brett ...
Why do you say he had the courage to do it ? what reasons do you have for that conclusion ?
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As already pointed out, it doesn't really matter if Jeremy commissioned the crime and had someone else carry it out as he is guilty by association and the crime is one of joint enterprise.
Only Jeremy knew how to get into and out of the farmhouse without leaving any evidence of an incursion. Jeremy implicated his sister from the off and the crimescene was made to look like an inside job but it wasn't. Jeremy could very well have passed that information onto a third party or even have let them in while he stood guard outside, only he knows the truth of what really happened.
As far as anyone else having prior knowledge of the crime is concerned you only have to look at the facts.
Which particular facts should i be looking at ?
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However,getting back to the hitman theory,I'd doubt very much that Jeremy would have wanted to have come out of prison if he'd been involved in such an activity and because he'd allegedly used the name of MM,Jeremy will be lucky to remain alive once released for having involved him.
I have reason to believe from seperate enquiries that Bambers life is in the most serious danger should he ever be released - it's a small world - but MM does not feature in this to my knowledge ...
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Just another straw to go on clutching at, ie "If it please m'lud, he has to be released coz there might have been a hit man wot dun it".
You are wrong - more a case of not wanting a killer to remain free to kill again - if there was a hitman involved he need locking up - agreed ? and if Jeremy employed him then he needs to stay where he is - agreed ?
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Hm, but a somewhat extreme and fanciful one, along the lines of the theory of Nevill's war time escapades coming back to haunt him.
A THOUGHT! What was said hit man hoping to gain from the deaths of 3 adults, 2 children and a potential if he could get him to play ball, and who was going to pay him?
At least some ones being paying attention - well done
You have a good and long memory but are you the only one ?
By the way i have recently found out Neville was stationed in Jerusalem in 1944
If the war time revenge theory is true then my main suspect for the alleged five Mi6 murders not only comes from Jerusalem but his hatred of MI6 would have been because of Mi6 activities in Jerusalem between 1944 and 1948 when he then moved to America ...
It is VERY likely Neville was in Jerusalem working for Mi6 - don't forget June was ex Mi6
Before anyone says different i should tell you that Mi6 was known as SOE (Special Operations Executive) during the war - they changed the name to Mi6 after the war ...
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At least some ones being paying attention - well done
You have a good and long memory but are you the only one ?
By the way i have recently found out Neville was stationed in Jerusalem in 1944
If the war time revenge theory is true then my main suspect for the alleged five Mi6 murders not only comes from Jerusalem but his hatred of MI6 would have been because of Mi6 activities in Jerusalem between 1944 and 1948 when he then moved to America ...
It is VERY likely Neville was in Jerusalem working for Mi6 - don't forget June was ex Mi6
Before anyone says different i should tell you that Mi6 was known as SOE (Special Operations Executive) during the war - they changed the name to Mi6 after the war ...
I had believed all of the above to be common knowledge. I not PREPARED to believe that ANY group sought retribution, some 40 years on, for some perceived war time activity -even Nazi criminals were put on trial- relating to whom, by the way? NOR am I prepared to believe that said retribution would include a young woman and her children who had no blood connection to whomsoever was regarded as being "guilty" and thus deserving of such punishment.
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I had believed all of the above to be common knowledge. I not PREPARED to believe that ANY group sought retribution, some 40 years on, for some perceived war time activity -even Nazi criminals were put on trial- relating to whom, by the way? NOR am I prepared to believe that said retribution would include a young woman and her children who had no blood connection to whomsoever was regarded as being "guilty" and thus deserving of such punishment.
My theory is not that "a group" carried out the retribution.
It is purely that one particular individual did.
The retribution would be because this extremely powerful individual blamed Mi6 for what he perceived that they did to his own family ie wipe them all out including women and children en mass.
All five mi6 officers that have died were involved in the activities that he blames for the massacre of his family and many many members of his community.
It is known that this individual is very revengeful and does not ever stop tracking his enemies down however long it takes - he is one of the most feared men in America even today.
It is conceivable he obtained a list of the "responsible" mi6 officers and then ordered the wiping out of them and every member of their families - ie a tooth for a tooth
He would not care if children were not blood related ie adopted -that would not spare them.
These "activities" were mainly based in Jerusalem 1944 - 1948
Believe me if he was aware of Neville Bamber wartime activities he would have hated him with a passion his entire life - was he aware of Neville Bamber ? Did he do anything about it ?
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My theory is not that "a group" carried out the retribution.
It is purely that one particular individual did.
The retribution would be because this extremely powerful individual blamed Mi6 for what he perceived that they did to his own family ie wipe them all out including women and children en mass.
All five mi6 officers that have died were involved in the activities that he blames for the massacre of his family and many many members of his community.
It is known that this individual is very revengeful and does not ever stop tracking his enemies down however long it takes - he is one of the most feared men in America even today.
It is conceivable he obtained a list of the "responsible" mi6 officers and then ordered the wiping out of them and every member of their families - ie a tooth for a tooth
He would not care if children were not blood related ie adopted -that would not spare them.
These "activities" were mainly based in Jerusalem 1944 - 1948
Believe me if he was aware of Neville Bamber wartime activities he would have hated him with a passion his entire life - was he aware of Neville Bamber ? Did he do anything about it ?
Is it only a quantum leap from the merely speculative to knowledge of a vengeful individual who "is one of the most feared men in America even today" OR perhaps you're competing with Mike to see who can come up with the most outlandish theory OR are you simply trying to muddy the waters for fun?
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With respect not everyone knows Bamber didn't hire a hit man - for example i don't know that and i am sure i am not the only one
No one knows ALL the circles Bamber mixed in - for example who did he mix with in Australia ?
We know he dealt drugs - but can you really say you or any one else knows who much about the characters that supplied him ? He definately had dealings with a fair amount of assorted criminals probably in more than one country - in short NO ONE knows who he knew ...
I agree 2,000 would not even cover a deposit on a hit - coincidence it is the same amount sent to him in Australia though ...
What if for example Brett was the hitman - he would not have needed an advance payment would he ? And if it was Brett he wouldn't tell the police afterwards would he ? And it would prevent Bamber from confessing all these years - possibly - and he maybe wouldn't mind sharing the windfall with Brett - after all they were obviously very close best friends and after the killings he was happy to spend lavishly with Brett ...
Why do you say he had the courage to do it ? what reasons do you have for that conclusion ?
Collins wasn't even in the country at the time of the murders!!
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My theory is not that "a group" carried out the retribution.
It is purely that one particular individual did.
The retribution would be because this extremely powerful individual blamed Mi6 for what he perceived that they did to his own family ie wipe them all out including women and children en mass.
All five mi6 officers that have died were involved in the activities that he blames for the massacre of his family and many many members of his community.
It is known that this individual is very revengeful and does not ever stop tracking his enemies down however long it takes - he is one of the most feared men in America even today.
It is conceivable he obtained a list of the "responsible" mi6 officers and then ordered the wiping out of them and every member of their families - ie a tooth for a tooth
He would not care if children were not blood related ie adopted -that would not spare them.
These "activities" were mainly based in Jerusalem 1944 - 1948
Believe me if he was aware of Neville Bamber wartime activities he would have hated him with a passion his entire life - was he aware of Neville Bamber ? Did he do anything about it ?
And here we go once again, back in the realms of fantasy - perhaps the killer was James Bond? ::) ::) ::)
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You are wrong - more a case of not wanting a killer to remain free to kill again - if there was a hitman involved he need locking up - agreed ? and if Jeremy employed him then he needs to stay where he is - agreed ?
i dont see how anyone could argue with that.
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My theory is not that "a group" carried out the retribution.
It is purely that one particular individual did.
The retribution would be because this extremely powerful individual blamed Mi6 for what he perceived that they did to his own family ie wipe them all out including women and children en mass.
All five mi6 officers that have died were involved in the activities that he blames for the massacre of his family and many many members of his community.
It is known that this individual is very revengeful and does not ever stop tracking his enemies down however long it takes - he is one of the most feared men in America even today.
It is conceivable he obtained a list of the "responsible" mi6 officers and then ordered the wiping out of them and every member of their families - ie a tooth for a tooth
He would not care if children were not blood related ie adopted -that would not spare them.
These "activities" were mainly based in Jerusalem 1944 - 1948
Believe me if he was aware of Neville Bamber wartime activities he would have hated him with a passion his entire life - was he aware of Neville Bamber ? Did he do anything about it ?
if a third party comited the crime they would of had to have known certan things like sheilas ilness and jeremys phone number and that they would more likely be somone closer to home.
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if a third party comited the crime they would of had to have known certan things like sheilas ilness and jeremys phone number and that they would more likely be somone closer to home.
Back to Jeremy again. I remain AMAZED by the vividness of the imaginations of those who stop JUST short of accusing little green men from outer space before they'll consider that it was JEREMY all along.
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Back to Jeremy again. I remain AMAZED by the vividness of the imaginations of those who stop JUST short of accusing little green men from outer space before they'll consider that it was JEREMY all along.
Blimey,you've only to look to one of the relatives who'd suggested a landing strip where light aircraft dropped off supplies of drugs to WHF. He was probably smashed when he said it,and no doubt saw little green men !
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Back to Jeremy again. I remain AMAZED by the vividness of the imaginations of those who stop JUST short of accusing little green men from outer space before they'll consider that it was JEREMY all along.
we have allways considred if you bothre to actullyread our posts.
we just considring other things as wel.
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Blimey,you've only to look to one of the relatives who'd suggested a landing strip where light aircraft dropped off supplies of drugs to WHF. He was probably smashed when he said it,and no doubt saw little green men !
Thank-you for quoting, Lookout.........................but SURELY you're not suggesting that members who suggest goofy theories are "probably smashed" :o
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we have allways considred if you bothre to actullyread our posts.
we just considring other things as wel.
I have no problem with that....................so long as the suggestions are plausible even if they're not believable.
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we have allways considred if you bothre to actullyread our posts.
we just considring other things as wel.
I have seen you consider Jeremy being guilty but there are some who have never done that.
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Thank-you for quoting, Lookout.........................but SURELY you're not suggesting that members who suggest goofy theories are "probably smashed" :o
Did I say members ? No I didn't.You did. Just because I posted what I did. ::) Words in mouth----again.
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Did I say members ? No I didn't.You did. Just because I posted what I did. ::) Words in mouth----again.
You forget, Lookout. In MY world, nothing is said, done, written or happens for NO reason. Everything has a background. Following these rules, I can say that it was the words YOU wrote which prompted my response. You COULD, of course, say that as my words were entirely tongue in cheek, your own response wasn't necessary. ^-^
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I have no problem with that....................so long as the suggestions are plausible even if they're not believable.
whats plausable is a matter of opionion.
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Is it only a quantum leap from the merely speculative to knowledge of a vengeful individual who "is one of the most feared men in America even today" OR perhaps you're competing with Mike to see who can come up with the most outlandish theory OR are you simply trying to muddy the waters for fun?
I am 100% not on this forum for fun.
I am 100% not trying to muddy the water.
I am 100% not in any type of competition with Mike.
Yes it is a large quantum leap.
But if there is any truth in the mi6 theory (as put forward by Bambers own lawyer) then i have identified a likely suspect.
Until i know more i think it wrong to go into detail on here about the additional reasons i have to suspect his involvement.
Coincidentally it is almost certain along with very many other people at the time Jeremy and Sheila would have been buying their drugs (particularly hashish) at least some of the time from drug networks in england controlled by this individual - that part is fact not theory.
If he did have them on his hit list he would have known everything about every member of the Bamber family and all their associates before making a move.
There are many very different types of people in this world ...
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Collins wasn't even in the country at the time of the murders!!
All that is known is that some days (maybe a week ?) after the murders he boarded a flight from Greece to England to see his newly enriched friend Jeremy stating he had been in Greece since before the murders.
His word is not good enough for me on that point - is it for you ?
I can tell you for a fact in 1985 if he had left England (say the day after the murders) through Dover and travelled onto Greece there would have been no record whatsoever of his movements - and he was a bit of a traveller wasn't he ?
So are you really sure you know where Brett Collins was on the night of 6th August 1985 ?
I am not ...
By the way Robert Boutflour and Essex Police both suspected he might well have had some involvement in the murders ...
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i did think of breet myself but then agian he seems an unlikely hitman to me.
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Everyone knows Bamber didn't hire a hit man.
He didn't mix in the sort of circles where he would find someone who would do the job. Who does ?
Bamber didn't have the finance to pay someone. A hit man would want a substantial payment in advance. The hit man was going to kill five people, two women and two children
If Bamber started asking people about where to find a hit man, this would be mentioned to the police by those people after the massacre.
Bamber had the motivation, knowledge and courage to carry out the massacre. He was confident enough to outside WHF with the police, a few minutes after the massacre.
The crime was committed mainly for inheritance. Why wluld Bamber pay out a slice of this to a hit man, if he could do it himself.
I tend to agree Adam. Only someone who was totally depraved and psychopathic would murder two tots as they slept. You would be hard pressed to find any hitman who would contemplate such a crime for a pittance.
Out of interest, are there any recorded cases in the last thirty years of a paid assassin murdering children?
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i did think of breet myself but then agian he seems an unlikely hitman to me.
Why do you think he would be an unlikely hitman - any reason ?
Jeremy told Julie he paid the hitman 2,000 pounds
I think there is general agreement that this seems a far too low a sum for a hitman
Jeremy got his parents to send 2,000 to him when in Australia which he later told his father he had given to a friend - presumably in my opinion most likely Brett
Is there some sort of connection between these two different lots of 2,000 pounds ?
There are rumours that at this time in Australia someone got shot (in a robbery) in connection with Brett and Jeremy - maybe the 2,000 Jeremy gave Brett was to help Brett out in connection with this eg maybe Brett needed the money to lie low for a while ?
English media at the time reported a possible romantic link between Brett and Jeremy
At least one french newspaper reported it as more of a master (brett) / slave (Jeremy) relationship.
If this was true then Brett would have effectively controlled Jeremy and the entirety of Jeremys newly inherited fortune - more financially rewarding than a mere hitmans fee ...
By the way Brett has recently been made bankrupt in new zealand in connection with low level criminal activity over the last few years - he made about 200,000 pounds or more from these activities ...
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Why then,was Brett threatening to rush off to the Sun newspaper to report that Jeremy was being framed as soon as he'd returned from Greece ? In fact I think he actually told the Sun. Nobody would draw attention to themselves in this way.
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Why then,was Brett threatening to rush off to the Sun newspaper to report that Jeremy was being framed as soon as he'd returned from Greece ? In fact I think he actually told the Sun. Nobody would draw attention to themselves in this way.
If i understand what you mean correctly then it would be because he knew their new found fortune would not materialise should Jeremy be convicted - he was already known to be very close to Jeremy so was already heavily on the radar - in fact if Jeremy were convicted then it would increase suspicion on Brett also not decrease it ...
If Jeremy had been found not guilty then i and most other people would never ever have heard Bretts name - because Jeremy was convicted Bretts name will forever be associated with the murders ...
Brett had every reason to hope Jeremy was not convicted - and who knows maybe he had some strong feelings for his friend as well and was desperately looking forward to a luxury life with him ....
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By the way Brett has recently been made bankrupt in new zealand in connection with low level criminal activity over the last few years - he made about 200,000 pounds or more from these activities ...
Is this the one you mean?
An unregistered vehicle dealer has been fined a record $30,000 following his fifth conviction in eight years.
The 61-year-old Waiheke Island man, Brett Eric Collins, was convicted in the Auckland District Court of unregistered trading in motor vehicles.
He sold eight vehicles in 12 months, which exceeded the limit of six allowed under the Motor Vehicle Sales Act.
More... (http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/small-business/10224335/30k-fine-for-selling-too-many-vehicles)
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I am 100% not on this forum for fun.
I am 100% not trying to muddy the water.
I am 100% not in any type of competition with Mike.
Yes it is a large quantum leap.
But if there is any truth in the mi6 theory (as put forward by Bambers own lawyer) then i have identified a likely suspect.
Until i know more i think it wrong to go into detail on here about the additional reasons i have to suspect his involvement.
Coincidentally it is almost certain along with very many other people at the time Jeremy and Sheila would have been buying their drugs (particularly hashish) at least some of the time from drug networks in england controlled by this individual - that part is fact not theory.
If he did have them on his hit list he would have known everything about every member of the Bamber family and all their associates before making a move.
There are many very different types of people in this world ...
Why would Mi6 kill 2 children, why would Mi6 go to the trouble of framing Sheila, surely if they wanted Bamber as well it would have been planned better, don't forget who the Lawyer was who made these claims Giovanni De Stefano.
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Is this the one you mean?
An unregistered vehicle dealer has been fined a record $30,000 following his fifth conviction in eight years.
The 61-year-old Waiheke Island man, Brett Eric Collins, was convicted in the Auckland District Court of unregistered trading in motor vehicles.
He sold eight vehicles in 12 months, which exceeded the limit of six allowed under the Motor Vehicle Sales Act.
More... (http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/small-business/10224335/30k-fine-for-selling-too-many-vehicles)
Yes this is him.
He was made bankrupt because of not paying his multiple fines.
He is second on the list of bankruptcies here :
http://www.insolvency.govt.nz/cms/support/news-and-public-notices/public-notices/archived-notices/2013-notices/21-June-2013
Seperate reports from a new zealand official relating to this type of offence state that many such traders make so much money from this that they look on the very large fines as just a cost of doing business and pay the fines every time.
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Yes this is him.
He was made bankrupt because of not paying his multiple fines.
He is second on the list of bankruptcies here :
http://www.insolvency.govt.nz/cms/support/news-and-public-notices/public-notices/archived-notices/2013-notices/21-June-2013
Seperate reports from a new zealand official relating to this type of offence state that many such traders make so much money from this that they look on the very large fines as just a cost of doing business and pay the fines every time.
I seem to recall that when I first joined the forum -several years back- that a "search" was done on BC which revealed him to have been made bankrupt/prosecuted? for motor related offences.
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Why would Mi6 kill 2 children, why would Mi6 go to the trouble of framing Sheila, surely if they wanted Bamber as well it would have been planned better, don't forget who the Lawyer was who made these claims Giovanni De Stefano.
With respect you completely mis understand the Mi6 theory.
NO ONE including Bamber or De Stefano has ever said Mi6 were involved in the murders.
And of course Mi6 do not murder children or frame people.
The theory is that June and probably Neville were themselves ex Mi6.
An "enemy" of Mi6 then killed them as revenge for the work they did on behalf of Mi6.
And they are one of 5 such ex Mi6 officers to be killed in similar circumstances.
De Stefano whilst Bambers lawyer stated that he was approached by an ex SAS soldier.
Mi6 and SAS work very closely together.
This SAS guy told Stefano that he knew that there were 5 related cases of murders of ex MI6 officers and that the Bambers were one of the cases.
If an ex SAS guy did actually say this then it would very likely be true.
The only question is whether De Stefano is lying or not about being approached by this SAS guy.
De Stefano's credibility in general is in doubt because of his own prison sentence.
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I seem to recall that when I first joined the forum -several years back- that a "search" was done on BC which revealed him to have been made bankrupt/prosecuted? for motor related offences.
The date of the bankruptcy was 2013 - 2 and a half years ago.
Yes it was for motor related offences.
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With respect you completely mis understand the Mi6 theory.
NO ONE including Bamber or De Stefano has ever said Mi6 were involved in the murders.
And of course Mi6 do not murder children or frame people.
The theory is that June and probably Neville were themselves ex Mi6.
An "enemy" of Mi6 then killed them as revenge for the work they did on behalf of Mi6.
And they are one of 5 such ex Mi6 officers to be killed in similar circumstances.
De Stefano whilst Bambers lawyer stated that he was approached by an ex SAS soldier.
Mi5 and SAS work very closely together.
This SAS guy told Stefano that he knew that there were 5 related cases of murders of ex MI6 officers and that the Bambers were one of the cases.
If an ex SAS guy did actually say this then it would very likely be true.
The only question is whether De Stefano is lying or not about being approached by this SAS guy.
De Stefano's credibility in general is in doubt because of his own prison sentence.
Thanks for that Sherlock, De Stefano can't believe anything he says sorry, June ex Mi6 not heard that one before. I have read how SAS worked in Northern Irleland in The Nemisis files, my son in law has spent 23 years in the parachute regiment and worked closely with the SAS ask him or them about killing women and children nah cannot see it Sherlock.
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The date of the bankruptcy was 2013 - 2 and a half years ago.
Yes it was for motor related offences.
Remember your theory about some picture being Sheila? This has the same credibility. When Jeremy was arrested BC was checked out and he wasn't in the country but what has BC got to do with MI6?
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Thanks for that Sherlock, De Stefano can't believe anything he says sorry, June ex Mi6 not heard that one before. I have read how SAS worked in Northern Irleland in The Nemisis files, my son in law has spent 23 years in the parachute regiment and worked closely with the SAS ask him or them about killing women and children nah cannot see it Sherlock.
June did work for MI5 Justice, she was a wireless operator. She apparently worked on a few secret missions during the war with a group called the SOE (Special Operation Executive), it's the Carol Ann Lee Book. I agree that if someone had a beef with Nevill, they wouldn't kill the whole family but I find the whole MI6 connection a step too far.
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June did work for MI5 Justice, she was a wireless operator. She apparently worked on a few secret missions during the war with a group called the SOE (Special Operation Executive), it's the Carol Ann Lee Book. I agree that if someone had a beef with Nevill, they wouldn't kill the whole family but I find the whole MI6 connection a step too far.
Thanks for that Caroline, never knew that, long time for anyone to hold a grudge from the war, then 40 years later decide to wipe the whole family out and leave Jeremy alive. It's probably a theory and a step too far like you said that's been put together with De Stefano.
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i have trouble with this thoery because the alleged sas soldier has never come forward himself that makes me think ether destefno made him up or his not really an sas soldier just a fantisist.
and destefno has never said wich murders are simlar the bamber ones.
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Thanks for that Caroline, never knew that, long time for anyone to hold a grudge from the war, then 40 years later decide to wipe the whole family out and leave Jeremy alive. It's probably a theory and a step too far like you said that's been put together with De Stefano.
He grasped at any straw - just a means of complicating things. The truth is often a lot less complicated.
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for any third party to have been responsible they would of ha to have known about shielas islness and i cant see the people destephno is acusing knowing that.
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You have to also ask WHY a rogue enemy agent would use the Bambers own .22 rifle and not his/her own weapon?
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Remember your theory about some picture being Sheila? This has the same credibility. When Jeremy was arrested BC was checked out and he wasn't in the country but what has BC got to do with MI6?
I not only remember the picture theory but am still working on it.
I have still not ruled it out.
Last week i met the officer who traced the lady in the painting.
I have still not ruled out a connection between that painting and Sheila
Do you know any details of how thoroughly Bretts Greek alibi was checked out ?
If Brett was involved it would very likely not be connected with the Mi6 theory.
If there is a revengeful person kiling ex Mi6 officers then it is remotely possible Brett may have been one of this guys pawns.
I am looking into a lot of different theories so statistically most of my theories are of course wrong.
After all only one theory can be correct.
One theory i think is very possible is that Bamber is guilty as charged.
But maybe there is more to this case ...
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Thanks for that Sherlock, De Stefano can't believe anything he says sorry, June ex Mi6 not heard that one before. I have read how SAS worked in Northern Irleland in The Nemisis files, my son in law has spent 23 years in the parachute regiment and worked closely with the SAS ask him or them about killing women and children nah cannot see it Sherlock.
NO ONE is accusing the SAS of involvement in the murders.
The allegation is that an enemy of the British state carried out the murders because the Bambers were ex MI6.
And of course the SAS do not kill children or innocent women.
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One theory i think is very possible is that Bamber is guilty as charged.
Thank God for that. I was beginning to fear for your sanity ;)
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Thanks for that Caroline, never knew that, long time for anyone to hold a grudge from the war, then 40 years later decide to wipe the whole family out and leave Jeremy alive. It's probably a theory and a step too far like you said that's been put together with De Stefano.
You are probably right.
However if the theory is true then :
My suspect would hold a grudge for his entire life.
He would not only wanted Jeremy dead but probably still does.
He would have wanted Neville and every member of his family dead.
It is what the guy is like and how he operates.
And he would blame Mi6 for being responsible for wiping out his own family in the 1940's
This guy would kill a persons family decades later just over a drugs deal if thats how long it took him to find them.
Like i say it is just what the guy is like ...
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You are probably right.
However if the theory is true then :
My suspect would hold a grudge for his entire life.
He would not only wanted Jeremy dead but probably still does.
He would have wanted Neville and every member of his family dead.
It is what the guy is like and how he operates.
And he would blame Mi6 for being responsible for wiping out his own family in the 1940's
This guy would kill a persons family decades later just over a drugs deal if thats how long it took him to find them.
Like i say it is just what the guy is like ...
Using a .22 rifle?
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i have trouble with this thoery because the alleged sas soldier has never come forward himself that makes me think ether destefno made him up or his not really an sas soldier just a fantisist.
and destefno has never said wich murders are simlar the bamber ones.
If such a person exists i would like to trace him - i am attempting to ...
De Stefano did publish the list of the 5 people the SAS guy allegedly gave him.
I have looked into some of these cases.
I will try to post a link as soon as i have a spare minute unless anyone else has it to hand ?
I
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He grasped at any straw - just a means of complicating things. The truth is often a lot less complicated.
Very possible i agree ...
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You have to also ask WHY a rogue enemy agent would use the Bambers own .22 rifle and not his/her own weapon?
He would definately want it to look like Sheila did it ...
He allegedly killed people and made it look like suicide in other murders.
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for any third party to have been responsible they would of ha to have known about shielas islness and i cant see the people destephno is acusing knowing that.
IF this guy was involved he would have known absolutely EVERYTHING about every member of the Bamber family and all their associates before he made his move - he is no amateur and is a very thorough ...
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You have to also ask WHY a rogue enemy agent would use the Bambers own .22 rifle and not his/her own weapon?
For obvious reasons. I'd imagine they have specialized weapons which would be easily traced dependent on the nature of the assassination,so that's why they'd use other weapons to hand in the hope that someone else gets the blame.
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Here is DeStefanos list :
The murders being linked are:
* Scientist Sir Jack Drummond, murdered with his wife and 10-year-old daughter on a camping holiday in France 1952. It has since been claimed that he was a spy.
* Sir Jack Drummond's secretary Miss June Marshall, murdered in Dieppe, France, In 1956.
* Sir Oliver Duncan was murdered in Rome, in 1964.
* Major Michael Lasseter was murdered in Cannes, France, in 1973.
* Professor John Cartland, also known as a former secret agent, murdered on a camping holiday in Provence, France, in 1973.
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For obvious reasons. I'd imagine they have specialized weapons which would be easily traced dependent on the nature of the assassination,so that's why they'd use other weapons to hand in the hope that someone else gets the blame.
Exactly he would have wanted it to look like Sheila did it ...
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Here is DeStefanos list :
The murders being linked are:
* Scientist Sir Jack Drummond, murdered with his wife and 10-year-old daughter on a camping holiday in France 1952. It has since been claimed that he was a spy.
* Sir Jack Drummond's secretary Miss June Marshall, murdered in Dieppe, France, In 1956.
* Sir Oliver Duncan was murdered in Rome, in 1964.
a time range like that suggests it could be complete coincidence.
* Major Michael Lasseter was murdered in Cannes, France, in 1973.
* Professor John Cartland, also known as a former secret agent, murdered on a camping holiday in Provence, France, in 1973.
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IF this guy was involved he would have known absolutely EVERYTHING about every member of the Bamber family and all their associates before he made his move - he is no amateur and is a very thorough ...
Not thorough enough to know that Bamber did not live there? Remember Nevilles words from Bamber your sister/ Sheila has got the gun or to that effect, what assassin who is top draw material would leave himself wide open for Bamber to phone the police?
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Not thorough enough to know that Bamber did not live there? Remember Nevilles words from Bamber your sister/ Sheila has got the gun or to that effect, what assassin who is top draw material would leave himself wide open for Bamber to phone the police?
They would have known that.
They would have had very little chance to get all the family in one place at one time.
Maybe their best opportunity was that night.
Jeremy not being there was a minor inconvenience.
They would have forced Neville to make the call.
They would know it was 50/50 whether Jeremy would arrive alone or with Police.
They got unlucky and when they saw the police simply left the farm under cover of darkness.
They could have dealt with Jeremy later - he wasnt the main target.
Then a member of the family got talking with Julie and they jointly convinced themselves Jeremy did it.
They were not prepared to let him get away with it.
So they arranged to plant the silencer and for Julie to confess.
DS Jones had not liked Jeremy from the start and suspected him.
He would therefore be all to willing to uncritically accept Julies confession ...
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They would have known that.
They would have had very little chance to get all the family in one place at one time.
Maybe their best opportunity was that night.
Jeremy not being there was a minor inconvenience.
They would have forced Neville to make the call.
They would know it was 50/50 whether Jeremy would arrive alone or with Police.
They got unlucky and when they saw the police simply left the farm under cover of darkness.
They could have dealt with Jeremy later - he wasnt the main target.
Then a member of the family got talking with Julie and they jointly convinced themselves Jeremy did it.
They were not prepared to let him get away with it.
So they arranged to plant the silencer and for Julie to confess.
DS Jones had not liked Jeremy from the start and suspected him.
He would therefore be all to willing to uncritically accept Julies confession ...
This all sounds very much like a "make it up as you go using opposition points to build on" fiction.
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Exactly he would have wanted it to look like Sheila did it ...
::)
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This all sounds very much like a "make it up as you go using opposition points to build on" fiction.
One of Enid Blyton's books Jane.
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This all sounds very much like a "make it up as you go using opposition points to build on" fiction.
If DeStefano lied about the SAS guy then of course this theory is built on a fiction.
If he was telling the truth then it is still a possible chain of events ...
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even if he dident how do we know the sas guy if thats what he was wasn't lying to him.
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even if he dident how do we know the sas guy if thats what he was wasn't lying to him.
We don't and we don't even know that Nevill worked for MI5/6 or had ANY association to the other guys who were murdered.
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even if he dident how do we know the sas guy if thats what he was wasn't lying to him.
That is entirely possible.
Only a very limited amount of people have the ability to authenticate a claim that someone had served with the SAS - DeStefano may or may not have had that ability.
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We don't and we don't even know that Nevill worked for MI5/6 or had ANY association to the other guys who were murdered.
We know that June did.
By the way it was MI6 not MI5
The fact Neville was in Jerusalem in 1944 makes it very likely he was with MI6
This is based on detailed research i have undertaken.
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If DeStefano lied about the SAS guy then of course this theory is built on a fiction.
If he was telling the truth then it is still a possible chain of events ...
Di Stefano! Telling the truth!! Has as much of a ring of probability about it as little green men knocking on your door, to borrow a cup of sugar, within the next 10 minutes.
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Di Stefano! Telling the truth!! Has as much of a ring of probability about it as little green men knocking on your door, to borrow a cup of sugar, within the next 10 minutes.
You might well be right ...
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One of Enid Blyton's books Jane.
How I adored "The Famous Five." Just between US, I was desperately in love with Julian.
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You might well be right ...
But Jeremy has not confessed in 30 years and is never getting out.
Therefore in all fairness if anyone from his team makes a claim then it deserves investigating absolutely thoroughly - however unlikely that claim may at first appear ...
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But Jeremy has not confessed in 30 years and is never getting out.
Therefore in all fairness if anyone from his team makes a claim then it deserves investigating absolutely thoroughly - however unlikely that claim may at first appear ...
It doesn't need a psychologist to work out that Jeremy's position is likely to be much more secure -and indeed comfortable- whilst he maintains his innocence. It also doesn't require all -ANY- members of his team to believe it, either. It may be no more than an interesting exercise. I DO believe that the quirkier/more improbable the claim, the more interesting it may be to investigate it.
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That is entirely possible.
Only a very limited amount of people have the ability to authenticate a claim that someone had served with the SAS - DeStefano may or may not have had that ability.
i know many people who have been sent on wild goose chases by people cliaming to be former soldiers former spys former detectives.
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He would definately want it to look like Sheila did it ...
He allegedly killed people and made it look like suicide in other murders.
So he wanted to convey that, whilst Sheila, a non gun user, was competent enough to kill her parents and children, she wasn't competent enough -after all that practice- to shoot herself and had to do it twice?
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It doesn't need a psychologist to work out that Jeremy's position is likely to be much more secure -and indeed comfortable- whilst he maintains his innocence. It also doesn't require all -ANY- members of his team to believe it, either. It may be no more than an interesting exercise. I DO believe that the quirkier/more improbable the claim, the more interesting it may be to investigate it.
Two good points.
However i have given serious thought to EVERY theory posted on these forums - with the exception of "the little green men from Mars did it " one - however that one did amuse me ! :)
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So he wanted to convey that, whilst Sheila, a non gun user, was competent enough to kill her parents and children, she wasn't competent enough -after all that practice- to shoot herself and had to do it twice?
Good point Jane, he wasn't such a good hit man after all, mind you he would be getting on a bit.
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We know that June did.
By the way it was MI6 not MI5
The fact Neville was in Jerusalem in 1944 makes it very likely he was with MI6
This is based on detailed research i have undertaken.
It was MI5, it's in CAL's book.
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So he wanted to convey that, whilst Sheila, a non gun user, was competent enough to kill her parents and children, she wasn't competent enough -after all that practice- to shoot herself and had to do it twice?
We all make mistakes - whether Sheila, Jeremy or a third party fired the gun someone made an unintentional mistake with the first shot to Sheila not being fatal ...
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I think this is appropriate ;D ;D ;D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2eqX93umXo
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[/quote]It was MI5, it's in CAL's book.
June and probably Neville worked for SOE in the war (Special Operations Executive)
SOE after the war changed its name to MI6
CAL obtained Junes SOE wartime record from the National Archives using a Freedom of Information request.
CAL says so herself here :
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Rj14BwAAQBAJ&pg=PR5&lpg=PR5&dq=june+bamber+soe&source=bl&ots=h7MkJEQjYp&sig=4hhHAgopyaCXNAzns0JgA0bcM1g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiP47rr1tbKAhUIv3IKHaGHABMQ6AEIQzAK#v=onepage&q=june%20bamber%20soe&f=false
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We all make mistakes - whether Sheila, Jeremy or a third party fired the gun someone made an unintentional mistake with the first shot to Sheila not being fatal ...
Professional hit men DON'T make mistakes of that nature. There was absolutely NO need for that one because he'd have seen and done enough to know that the first wound WAS fatal, just not instantly so, and someone capable of slaughtering two small, sleeping children would hardly concern himself with the possible sufferings of an adult.
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This is just too silly for words! ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Professional hit men DON'T make mistakes of that nature. There was absolutely NO need for that one because he'd have seen and done enough to know that the first wound WAS fatal, just not instantly so, and someone capable of slaughtering two small, sleeping children would hardly concern himself with the possible sufferings of an adult.
how many profesional hitman do you know.
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Professional hit men DON'T make mistakes of that nature. There was absolutely NO need for that one because he'd have seen and done enough to know that the first wound WAS fatal, just not instantly so, and someone capable of slaughtering two small, sleeping children would hardly concern himself with the possible sufferings of an adult.
Professionals would not want to leave an injured person - they would have to be dead.
Maybe he did not want to hang around.
How long after the first shot do you think Sheila could have staid alive ?
I have no idea on this ...
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This is just too silly for words! ;D ;D ;D ;D
Yeah, but I guess he has to be given credit for sucking us into talking about something which is "just too silly for words" :)) :)) :)) :))
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Something else silly :
California is preparing to execute an innocent man---------even though 5 judges say he didn't do it ( murder )
Although I haven't read the full details, the inmate has spent the last 30 years in prison for the murders of 2 adults and 2 children,3rd child survived after having had his throat slashed.
The man in question is an African/American which doesn't bode well with citizens who've shouted " Kill the n****r,,so right away there is hatred whether or not the man is guilty or innocent.
An example of how hatred and public opinion rules over what the courts say.
As I understand,there are doubts about DNA belonging to the alleged killer.
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Professionals would not want to leave an injured person - they would have to be dead.
Maybe he did not want to hang around.
How long after the first shot do you think Sheila could have staid alive ?
I have no idea on this ...
As there's no proof that this ever happened, how long Sheila could have stayed alive, after an alleged third party had shot her, is hypothetical.
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This is just too silly for words! ;D ;D ;D ;D
I am going to be offline for a couple of days or so.
Caroline - this thread started so i could find out peoples reasons for being sure there was no hitman of any description ...
If you could detail your reasons i would be grateful and interested.
Who knows ? I and others might well be persuaded if your logic is sound ...
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Something else silly :
California is preparing to execute an innocent man---------even though 5 judges say he didn't do it ( murder )
Although I haven't read the full details, the inmate has spent the last 30 years in prison for the murders of 2 adults and 2 children,3rd child survived after having had his throat slashed.
The man in question is an African/American which doesn't bode well with citizens who've shouted " die n****r,die,so right away there is hatred whether or not the man is guilty or innocent.
An example of how hatred and public opinion rules over what the courts say.
As I understand,there are doubts about DNA belonging to the alleged killer.
You sure it's in California, Lookout? I didn't know they used capital punishment in that state, thought it was more liberal than that?
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I am going to be offline for a couple of days or so.
Caroline - this thread started so i could find out peoples reasons for being sure there was no hitman of any description ...
If you could detail your reasons i would be grateful and interested.
Who knows ? I and others might well be persuaded if your logic is sound ...
If your two day absence is a promise, I hope it's one you'll be able to keep :))
I'm curious to know why you've started a thread to try to prove a negative.
I imagine that most will already have been persuaded, by your lack of logic, that this theory is a non starter ^-^
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You sure it's in California, Lookout? I didn't know they used capital punishment in that state, thought it was more liberal than that?
Yes Maggie,the guy's in San Quentin. A moratorium for executions in California was lifted last November which paved the way for the execution of this man.
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The guy is Kevin Cooper and he's 57.
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I am going to be offline for a couple of days or so.
Caroline - this thread started so i could find out peoples reasons for being sure there was no hitman of any description ...
If you could detail your reasons i would be grateful and interested.
Who knows ? I and others might well be persuaded if your logic is sound ...
Do you have a professional interest in the case ?
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The guy is Kevin Cooper and he's 57.
http://www.deathpenalty.org/article.php?id=816
http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2010/12/kevin-cooper-death-penalty-case
Found him lookout.
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http://www.deathpenalty.org/article.php?id=816
Found him lookout.
That's him Maggie and I notice the Human Rights are investigating it too. It would seem that the case has dragged on and now because his execution seems imminent they're all jumping through hoops.
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That's him Maggie and I notice the Human Rights are investigating it too. It would seem that the case has dragged on and now because his execution seems imminent they're all jumping through hoops.
Clive Stafford Smith was the lawyer who represented men many people in this situation on death row in America but lately he's been involved with Guantanamo Bay.
Kevin Cooper has lost 30 years of his life if they decide he's innocent after all and he'll never get that back.
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Clive Stafford Smith was the lawyer who represented many people in this situation on death row in America but lately he's been involved with Guantanamo Bay.
Kevin Cooper has lost 30 years of his life if they decide he's innocent after all and he'll never get that back.
Well if folk believe the words of a judge,or in this case 5 judges------------------------------
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Well if folk believe the words of a judge,or in this case 5 judges------------------------------
I don't know the details of the case or very much about the American system but it does seem horrendous for a so called civilised country to treat people the way they do. 'To be black in America is very difficult', I was told recently by a well educated, middle class young man born in Zimbabwe and raised in America ... how shameful.
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I don't know the details of the case or very much about the American system but it does seem horrendous for a so called civilised country to treat people the way they do. 'To be black in America is very difficult', I was told recently by a well educated, middle class young man born in Zimbabwe and raised in America ... how shameful.
So very sad Maggie and as you said----------shameful.
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So very sad Maggie and as you said----------shameful.
Equally sad and shameful is the -seemingly- appalling cover up of what happened to those young soldiers at Deepcut Barracks. Those in command were in loco parentis. It seems they failed miserably.
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Equally sad and shameful is the -seemingly- appalling cover up of what happened to those young soldiers at Deepcut Barracks. Those in command were in loco parentis. It seems they failed miserably.
I agree Jane, we are far from squeaky clean in this country. Have been reading about Christopher Alder online. It is truly shocking imo and has been in the press but somehow it doesn't seem to have got into the public psychie.
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Equally sad and shameful is the -seemingly- appalling cover up of what happened to those young soldiers at Deepcut Barracks. Those in command were in loco parentis. It seems they failed miserably.
That is truly disgusting. I did think at one point that it was all going to be brushed under the carpet,as that's the type of crime which has been committed. Thank goodness it's back to the fore.