Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Adam on December 13, 2015, 02:33:PM
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A poster on another forum suggested this happened.
If Sheila's first shot was a contact shot, resulting in any back splatter going into the silencer, rather than onto her bed, then it is certainly Bamber's best option.
The wound from the neck was probably a trickle rather than a waterfall. If Bamber carried an immobilised/asleep Sheila straight away, for around ten seconds, the way a groom carries a bride, to the main bedroom, then that would not change the direction of the blood flow.
There is no reason why Sheila would wake prior to it being her turn. The rifle with the silencer on was virtually silent, while Neville and June had received an opening salvo of 11 bullets, some to the neck and jaw, so not able to make any noise.
The evidence supports Sheila being in bed until it was her turn, rather than waking and going into the main bedroom. There was no blood on Sheila's hands or feet. If woken she may have also gone into her sons bedroom, rather than the main bedroom.
Shooting Sheila in bed means Bamber could aim without resistance from her. The evidence shows Sheila put up no resistance. His first shot was well placed and did do a lot of damage to her. She was immobilised.
Asleep and immobilised would mean Bamber could easily carry her a few feet to his chosen position.
RB's view that Bamber woke and persuaded Sheila to move to the main bedroom. Or the view that Sheila slept with June has always been inherently implausible. While waking her and leading her at gunpoint may prove problematic, as Bamber couldn't afford to shoot her to calm her down.
Bamber's second shot was obviously after Sheila had been moved to the main bedroom. After he realised the first shot had not killed her. My recent poll had everyone agreeing Bamber had no choice but to fire the second shot in his situation.
Do other people believe Sheila may have received her first shot in her bed ?
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A poster on another forum suggested this happened.
If Sheila's first shot was a contact shot, resulting in any back splatter going into the silencer, rather than onto her bed, then it is certainly Bamber's best option.
The wound from the neck was probably a trickle rather than a waterfall. If Bamber carried an immobilised/asleep Sheila straight away, for around ten seconds, the way a groom carries a bride, to the main bedroom, then that would not change the direction of the blood flow.
There is no reason why Sheila would wake prior to it being her turn. The rifle with the silencer on was virtually silent, while Neville and June had received an opening salvo of 11 bullets, some to the neck and jaw, so not able to make any noise.
The evidence supports Sheila being in bed until it was her turn, rather than waking and going into the main bedroom. There was no blood on Sheila's hands or feet. If woken she may have also gone into her sons bedroom, rather than the main bedroom.
Shooting Sheila in bed means Bamber could aim without resistance from her. The evidence shows Sheila put up no resistance. His first shot was well placed and did do a lot of damage to her. She was immobilised.
Asleep and immobilised would mean Bamber could easily carry her a few feet to his chosen position.
RB's view that Bamber woke and persuaded Sheila to move to the main bedroom. Or the view that Sheila slept with June has always been inherently implausible. While waking her and leading her at gunpoint may prove problematic, as Bamber couldn't afford to shoot her to calm her down.
Bamber's second shot was obviously after Sheila had been moved to the main bedroom. After he realised the first shot had not killed her. My recent poll had everyone agreeing Bamber had no choice but to fire the second shot in his situation.
Do other people believe Sheila may have received her first shot in her bed ?
I didn't know there was any blood spatter in Sheila's room. I would have thought Jeremy's plan would have been to kill her with one shot.
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I didn't know there was any blood spatter in Sheila's room. I would have thought Jeremy's plan would have been to kill her with one shot.
Steve I agree with you.
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I didn't know there was any blood spatter in Sheila's room. I would have thought Jeremy's plan would have been to kill her with one shot.
Steve, it stands to reason, that if someone is planning a murder to look like a suicide, they're unlikely to WANT to make it look like a botched suicide.
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I didn't know there was any blood spatter in Sheila's room. I would have thought Jeremy's plan would have been to kill her with one shot.
I agree. But he had no choice as the first shot didn't kill her.
This thread is about Bamber's first shot.
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I doubt that there would be much splatter. It was a rifle for shooting vermin.
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I agree. But he had no choice as the first shot didn't kill her.
This thread is about Bamber's first shot.
But then she would be dead with one shot in her bedroom which forensics would then prove she had never left.
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But then she would be dead with one shot in her bedroom which forensics would then prove she had never left.
Not if Bamber moved her into the main bedroom.
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Not if Bamber moved her into the main bedroom.
But then you're back to Sheila's blood being in her bed in her bedroom.
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But then you're back to Sheila's blood being in her bed in her bedroom.
From where ? One shot in her neck from a rifle used for shooting vermin. If he carried her to the main bedroom straight away, there would be no blood on the sheets.
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From where ? One shot in her neck from a rifle used for shooting vermin. If he carried her to the main bedroom straight away, there would be no blood on the sheets.
Jeremy may have "needed" to kill, but I don't believe it was for pleasure, nor was he a sadist. I'm just trying to imagine the excruciating pain of having ones neck shattered by a bullet, having blood flooding ons throat and being jarred by every step taken. I also wonder how there wouldn't have been, at least a blood trail from one bedroom to the other as one attempts to rid oneself of blood threatening to choke.
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Why bother carrying her to the main bedroom?
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Why bother carrying her to the main bedroom?
Valid point. Wasted effort, really.
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Jeremy may have "needed" to kill, but I don't believe it was for pleasure, nor was he a sadist. I'm just trying to imagine the excruciating pain of having ones neck shattered by a bullet, having blood flooding ons throat and being jarred by every step taken. I also wonder how there wouldn't have been, at least a blood trail from one bedroom to the other as one attempts to rid oneself of blood threatening to choke.
I know I'm being repetitive but Sheila wouldn't have felt the pain, her body would have blocked it, it's a natural reaction to trauma but she would have instinctively been aware she was injured. She would have been stunned and disoriented and would guess that she would lose consciousness as her body diverted oxygen to her vital organs to protect her. I cannot see her being able to do anything if she regained conciousness but lie where she had fallen, maybe pick up the gun if within her reach but the effort of doing that would most likely cause loss of consciousness again.
Any attempt to manipulate herself to shoot again would most likely result in her dropping the rifle and a further loss of consciousness and without immediate medical care she would eventually have died as her body shut down. I believe the second shot seems to have been for effect rather than necessity.
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I know I'm being repetitive but Sheila wouldn't have felt the pain, her body would have blocked it, it's a natural reaction to trauma but she would have instinctively been aware she was injured. She would have been stunned and disoriented and would guess that she would lose consciousness as her body diverted oxygen to her vital organs to protect her. I cannot see her being able to do anything if she regained conciousness but lie where she had fallen, maybe pick up the gun if within her reach but the effort of doing that would most likely cause loss of consciousness again.
Any attempt to manipulate herself to shoot again would most likely result in her dropping the rifle and a further loss of consciousness and without immediate medical care she would eventually have died as her body shut down. I believe the second shot seems to have been for effect rather than necessity.
Maggie, I'm not actually buying into the shot in her own bedroom thing. I see it as a way for Adam to push his theory of her being lifted and carried, which I don't buy into, either. I fail to see how it would have been possible, with neck bone and muscle traumatized by the first bullet, for her to lift the gun and aim it to take an accurate second shot. Like you, I think all the second shot did was to hasten the inevitable result of the first shot.
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Maggie, I'm not actually buying into the shot in her own bedroom thing. I see it as a way for Adam to push his theory of her being lifted and carried, which I don't buy into, either. I fail to see how it would have been possible, with neck bone and muscle traumatized by the first bullet, for her to lift the gun and aim it to take an accurate second shot. Like you, I think all the second shot did was to hasten the inevitable result of the first shot.
I do think that most prob the second shot was for effect and to reinforce the suicide angle.
It is an accepted form of suicide and such a shot would naturally be seen as suicide not inflicted by a third person.
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A semi-automatic would deliver one shot after the other, to the uninitiated,those who wouldn't have been familiar with its workings.
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Both shots were in close proximity of each other that it wasn't impossible for there to have been a " repeat ".
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A semi-automatic would deliver one shot after the other, to the uninitiated,those who wouldn't have been familiar with its workings.
I know Lookout but the second shot was very well aimed to be the result of a semi automatic imo :-\
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Both shots were in close proximity of each other that it wasn't impossible for there to have been a " repeat ".
Hello lookout
I have read that the second shot could have been a natural body jerk cannot find the article that tyler brought up but will ask her.
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I know Lookout but the second shot was very well aimed to be the result of a semi automatic imo :-\
Hi Maggie,in my estimation that second shot was the " shock " one which followed quickly after the first which appeared as an unexpected aim after a short pull-back following that first shot,a jerked one best describes it,in my language anyway. ;D Not that of a professional obviously.
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I believe that there is something called a " follow-up " shot after the first shot has failed even when the shooter remains motionless.
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Hi Maggie,in my estimation that second shot was the " shock " one which followed quickly after the first which appeared as an unexpected aim after a short pull-back following that first shot,a jerked one best describes it,in my language anyway. ;D Not that of a professional obviously.
I know what you mean Lookout but imo it would have been a massive chance that it would shoot Sheila where it did, I would expect a reflex second shot to have missed her altogether, hit her in the chest or throat or even the face but that second shot was well placed under her chin in quite a difficult position to get at.
The first shot was at 45 degrees so how did the rifle get so quickly into the position to shoot her under the chin? I am sorry to say this but it doesn't make any sense otherwise imo.
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Hello lookout
I have read that the second shot could have been a natural body jerk cannot find the article that tyler brought up but will ask her.
Hi Susan ( was just making a coffee ) Yes,I can go along with that. A sort of an unexpected second shot. Those familiar with a rifle would expect that to occur,but not the likes of Sheila.
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Hi Susan ( was just making a coffee ) Yes,I can go along with that. A sort of an unexpected second shot. Those familiar with a rifle would expect that to occur,but not the likes of Sheila.
The article posted by tyler explained how the two shots can occur in suicides but cannot remember exactly what it said I will ask her for the link.
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I know what you mean Lookout but imo it would have been a massive chance that it would shoot Sheila where it did, I would expect a reflex second shot to have missed her altogether, hit her in the chest or throat or even the face but that second shot was well placed under her chin in quite a difficult position to get at.
The first shot was at 45 degrees so how did the rifle get so quickly into the position to shoot her under the chin? I am sorry to say this but it doesn't make any sense otherwise imo.
Sheila would have been in the same lain down position for both shots. It would have been that she just expected the one shot,but being a semi-auto. the second one would have literally been seconds after. Sheila wouldn't have had to have moved an inch. Because that first shot hit the jaw-bone it would have naturally followed that a second shot an inch or so away from a non-moving target would occur.
For that second shot to have reached the skull,she'd have been lying flat and the rifle pointing upwards under her chin/neck.
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Sheila would have shot herself under her own volition and by her own hand or the shots wouldn't have been as accurate as they were.
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Jeremy may have "needed" to kill, but I don't believe it was for pleasure, nor was he a sadist. I'm just trying to imagine the excruciating pain of having ones neck shattered by a bullet, having blood flooding ons throat and being jarred by every step taken. I also wonder how there wouldn't have been, at least a blood trail from one bedroom to the other as one attempts to rid oneself of blood threatening to choke.
Well shooting Sheila while she slept and then carrying her for ten seconds, in a similar position to how she would be laying on her back, would not increase her pain much. Besides which Bamber assumed his first shot had killed her.
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Why bother carrying her to the main bedroom?
She had be out of bed in the middle of where the shooting took place. The main bedroom is as good a place as any.
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I do think that most prob the second shot was for effect and to reinforce the suicide angle.
It is an accepted form of suicide and such a shot would naturally be seen as suicide not inflicted by a third person.
The second shot was because Sheila didn't die after the first shot. He had no choice.
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Sheila would have been in the same lain down position for both shots. It would have been that she just expected the one shot,but being a semi-auto. the second one would have literally been seconds after. Sheila wouldn't have had to have moved an inch. Because that first shot hit the jaw-bone it would have naturally followed that a second shot an inch or so away from a non-moving target would occur.
For that second shot to have reached the skull,she'd have been lying flat and the rifle pointing upwards under her chin/neck.
The first shot was at a 45 degree angle to her neck but the second shot was 90 degrees, the first shot was front to back of her neck and slightly upward, the second shot was from a different position ie flush along her body or lower than her body with her lying flat with her head on the floor so the bullet travelled up through the underneath of her chin through her mouth and into her brain.
My thoughts are that it would be unlikely a reflex second shot would do that? I may be wrong but that's the way I see it.
We know if a third party was responsible for the second shot they would have needed to hold the rifle against her body with the end touching the floor below the body, so how else could this happen than by being placed?
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The second shot was because Sheila didn't die after the first shot. He had no choice.
Isnt That what I just said?
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The first shot was at a 45 degree angle to her neck but the second shot was 90 degrees, the first shot was front to back of her neck and slightly upward, the second shot was from a different position ie flush along her body or lower than her body with her lying flat with her head on the floor so the bullet travelled up through the underneath of her chin through her mouth and into her brain.
My thoughts are that it would be unlikely a reflex second shot would do that? I may be wrong but that's the way I see it.
We know if a third party was responsible for the second shot they would have needed to hold the rifle against her body with the end touching the floor below the body, so how else could this happen than by being placed?
The angles of the shots would refer to the " pull-back " movement of the rifle. A handgun where you have the full control,being smaller,would fire into the first injury a second time. Because a rifle is obviously more cumbersome it's not as easy to get a double shot in the same place.
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The second shot was because Sheila didn't die after the first shot. He had no choice.
Quelle surprise!!!!!!!!!! I think you'll find that most of us have been saying that all along. I don't think he did it for the fun of it as it potentially b******d up his "tableau."
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The angles of the shots would refer to the " pull-back " movement of the rifle. A handgun where you have the full control,being smaller,would fire into the first injury a second time. Because a rifle is obviously more cumbersome it's not as easy to get a double shot in the same place.
I know Lookout but for all that it doesn't explain the different angles to me, of course there's always the possibility it was reflex, all things are possible but it's a slim chance I think.
I find it hard to believe the second shot wasn't carried out by a third party after she had been stunned and therefore easy to manipulate into the correct position to be shot under the chin staging it as suicide. :-\
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I know Lookout but for all that it doesn't explain the different angles to me, of course there's always the possibility it was reflex, all things are possible but it's a slim chance I think.
I find it hard to believe the second shot wasn't carried out by a third party after she had been stunned and therefore easy to manipulate into the correct position to be shot under the chin staging it as suicide. :-\
I used to have it in mind that a third party was involved,but because of my personal views it was as " Taff " had first said------------a domestic.
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She had be out of bed in the middle of where the shooting took place. The main bedroom is as good a place as any.
As good a place as any... including her own bedroom. Where would you suggest as 'the middle of where the shooting took place'?
I don't believe this scenario has any merit whatsoever.
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As good a place as any... including her own bedroom. Where would you suggest as 'the middle of where the shooting took place'?
I don't believe this scenario has any merit whatsoever.
She had to be away from her bedroom. Otherwise it would look like she had been in bed all night. Rather than charging around WHF going crazy with a rifle.
If she was up shooting people around WHF why would she go back to her bedroom ?
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A semi-automatic would deliver one shot after the other, to the uninitiated,those who wouldn't have been familiar with its workings.
You have to pull the trigger twice on a semi-automatic to get two shots, it's not a constant flow of bullets.
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Isnt That what I just said?
You're post 15 said he shot Sheila again to create the 'suicide effect'.
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It seems likely that Bamber simply wanted to shoot and kill everyone in bed. While they slept.
Sheila being the last to be shot, and Bamber then immediately carrying her out of bed.
June or Neville could then be taken out of bed and the bedroom phone plugged in and taken off the hook.
The crime scene is staged.
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It seems likely that Bamber simply wanted to shoot and kill everyone in bed. While they slept.
Sheila being the last to be shot, and Bamber then immediately carrying her out of bed.
June or Neville could then be taken out of bed and the bedroom phone plugged in and taken off the hook.
The crime scene is staged.
You're probably the only one who is determined that he carried her and you've probably created a scenario to fit such. Personally I think if he'd shot her whilst she was in bed, she'd more than likely have been dead -bullet moving, haemorrhage accelerated- by the time he'd lifted and carried her to the master bedroom. The first shot was always going to be fatal, just not immediately fatal.
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You're post 15 said he shot Sheila again to create the 'suicide effect'.
He did that because as Sheila didn't die with the first shot he shot her again, to finish the job but he shot her under the chin and into her brain to create the effect it was suicide. Such a shot would not be expected to be carried out by a third party.
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You're probably the only one who is determined that he carried her and you've probably created a scenario to fit such. Personally I think if he'd shot her whilst she was in bed, she'd more than likely have been dead -bullet moving, haemorrhage accelerated- by the time he'd lifted and carried her to the master bedroom. The first shot was always going to be fatal, just not immediately fatal.
The 2002 appeal said the first shot would have been fatal. But not instantaneous.
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He did that because as Sheila didn't die with the first shot he shot her again, to finish the job but he shot her under the chin and into her brain to create the effect it was suicide. Such a shot would not be expected to be carried out by a third party.
Why would such a shot not be expected from a third party ? Bamber had two 6 year old's in the head and his mother in the forehead. So I don't see why people would not expect him to shoot Sheila where ever he wanted.
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You're probably the only one who is determined that he carried her and you've probably created a scenario to fit such. Personally I think if he'd shot her whilst she was in bed, she'd more than likely have been dead -bullet moving, haemorrhage accelerated- by the time he'd lifted and carried her to the master bedroom. The first shot was always going to be fatal, just not immediately fatal.
The 2002 appeal said the first shot would have been fatal. But not instantaneous.
I think you'll find that's exactly what I said. Delighted to see that you agree.
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Why would such a shot not be expected from a third party ? Bamber had two 6 year old's in the head and his mother in the forehead. So I don't see why people would not expect him to shoot Sheila where ever he wanted.
I meant that if the shot looked like suicide then people would believe it was suicide and that Sheila had shot everyone else as well as herself. If a third party had shot her in the back no one would have believed Sheila killed herself. :'(
I am talking about before Jeremy was accused of killing Sheila, you are looking at the situation in hindsight.
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From where ? One shot in her neck from a rifle used for shooting vermin. If he carried her to the main bedroom straight away, there would be no blood on the sheets.
Can't you see the blood that poured from her wounds? The rifle for shooting vermin caused carnage!!
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Can't you see the blood that poured from her wounds? The rifle for shooting vermin caused carnage!!
But Caroline, don't you remember? It was a WEAK(and feeble?) rifle. Not old enough to be out on its' own, really, I suppose.
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But Caroline, don't you remember? It was a WEAK(and feeble?) rifle. Not old enough to be out on its' own, really, I suppose.
I guess they were all weak and feebly killed then? ??? I fail to see how he can suggest the gun was basically a pellet gun when he can see what damage it did.
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Can't you see the blood that poured from her wounds? The rifle for shooting vermin caused carnage!!
The blood that ran down her neck wasn't exactly a waterfall. It wouldn't have reached the floor or her bed by the time Bamber put her down in the main bedroom.
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I meant that if the shot looked like suicide then people would believe it was suicide and that Sheila had shot everyone else as well as herself. If a third party had shot her in the back no one would have believed Sheila killed herself. :'(
I am talking about before Jeremy was accused of killing Sheila, you are looking at the situation in hindsight.
Yes no one would believe Sheila had committed suicide if she had a bullet in her back.
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But Caroline, don't you remember? It was a WEAK(and feeble?) rifle. Not old enough to be out on its' own, really, I suppose.
It was a weak rifle. Compared to a shot gun. Or a lot of hand guns. Which is why it was used for shooting vermin. And why Neville and June moved from their beds.
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The blood that ran down her neck wasn't exactly a waterfall. It wouldn't have reached the floor or her bed by the time Bamber put her down in the main bedroom.
You have know way of knowing that for a fact. I'm inclined to think it's something you made up to fit your preferred scenario.
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It was a weak rifle. Compared to a shot gun. Or a lot of hand guns. Which is why it was used for shooting vermin. And why Neville and June moved from their beds.
It was, nevertheless, more than capable of making pulp of an individual's face and body, and causing death.
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The blood that ran down her neck wasn't exactly a waterfall. It wouldn't have reached the floor or her bed by the time Bamber put her down in the main bedroom.
Based on what? How are you qualified to determine the above and what research have you done to back up your claims?
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The blood that ran down her neck wasn't exactly a waterfall. It wouldn't have reached the floor or her bed by the time Bamber put her down in the main bedroom.
Vanezis wouldn't agree with you.
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It was a weak rifle. Compared to a shot gun. Or a lot of hand guns. Which is why it was used for shooting vermin. And why Neville and June moved from their beds.
Were they any less dead?
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Were they any less dead?
D'ya know, my heart's beginning to bleed for that poor, weak rifle. What a nasty Jeremy to make it fire bullets when it obviously wasn't designed to do it.
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Based on what? How are you qualified to determine the above and what research have you done to back up your claims?
Based on common sense. It was a rifle for shooting vermin.
Not a powerful gun being fired into the someone's skull like in the Deer Hunter.
My common sense said the rifle would be quiet with a silencer on. My Youtube video confirms this.
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Based on common sense. It was a rifle for shooting vermin.
Not a powerful gun being fired into the someone's skull like in the Deer Hunter.
My common sense said the rifle would be quiet with a silencer on. My Youtube video confirms this.
Did it come with the warning "This weapon is too weak to kill people"?
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Based on common sense. It was a rifle for shooting vermin.
Not a powerful gun being fired into the someone's skull like in the Deer Hunter.
My common sense said the rifle would be quiet with a silencer on. My Youtube video confirms this.
Your argument is silly given that it killed 5 people.
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35. Upstairs the bodies of June Bamber and Sheila Caffell were found on the floor of the main bedroom. That of Mrs Bamber was very heavily bloodstained and lay by the doorway.
From the 2002 appeal. If June was by the doorway and Sheila woke and went into the main bedroom. She would have to have got June's blood on her hands and feet.