Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Adam on October 21, 2015, 01:48:PM
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After staging the scene at WHF, the next stage was to telephone the police. To tell them Neville had called him. After looking at this in more detail, is there now just a 1% chance this happened ?
1: Neville's decision to phone Bamber.
Well there are 60 reasons why Neville would not call Bamber. A thread has been created. He had lots of better options.
Neville obviously had time to consider other options. Otherwise he wouldn't have phoned Bamber. He wouldn't have time to think of all 60 reasons to not telephone Bamber. But a handful would flash across his mind. Resulting in him not phoning Bamber.
2: Bamber answering Neville's call.
Bamber told police he was 'sleeping like a log' at home.
If we are generous and say the phone rang 8 times before the answering machine worked, that is still less than 20 seconds. Bamber was upstairs and asleep. Perhaps with his bedroom door shut. He would almost certainly have not heard the phone and certainly would not have got to the phone before Neville had left a message.
Supporters say he would have turned the answering machine off when he got home. This is not credible. However if it was not on, it would be several minutes before a ringing phone would wake and entice Bamber to walk downstairs and answer. It would be poor judgement by Neville to wait that long in his situation. He had several better options.
3: Neville's 11 words to Bamber.
After deciding to ring Bamber, then wait several minutes for an answer, it is surprising Neville said just 11 words to him. The phone then going dead.
4: Bamber's reaction to Neville's call:
No one knows what they would do in this situation. A father calling a son at around 3am due to a crazy and dangerous daughter is a one off occurrence in England. As far as I am aware. However the consensus is that his actions were not credible.
He said he wasted time and called Julie to 'hear a friendly voice'.
Wasted time looking in the phone directly for the third and forth furthest away police stations, because 'he didn't think it would make any difference how quickly the police arrived'.
Didn't dial 999 because 'it didn't occur to him'.
Didn't go straight over to WHF although Neville had rang him and said 'please come over'.
Put several layers of clothes on and drove very slowly to WHF because he 'wanted to arrive after the police'.
Do other people now believe there is now only a 1% chance Neville's call happened ? And is 1% enough for 'reasonable doubt' ?
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even if your calculation are accurate that still means it could be true.
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Just one of the above things happening in isolation is very unlikely.
However all of them happening together in quick succession is not impossible, but the next best thing, with only a 1% likelihood.
Providing Sheila was holding a rifle of course.
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even if your calculation are accurate that still means it could be true.
Would 1% be enough for you to have reasonable doubt and vote 'not guilty' ?
If so the law needs to change. Jurors having to be sure 'beyond any doubt'.
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More than 1% I'd have said.
Jeremy was proved right over the fostering. He'd also owned up to having used the rifle the night before when he heard rabbits ( fingerprint ) but what were Sheila's prints doing on that and at least two other guns ? No answer to that one.
He'd also mentioned that there was another " way in " to the property------through a window.
Jeremy need not, and shouldn't have told of these things because he played right into the hands of the law who were much cleverer in a cunning sort of a way than he was at the time and he'd unknowingly talked himself into a crime which he didn't do.
So it seemed that the truth went against him and what he'd said was used to convict him as everyone took it as an admission to murdering his family ???
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More than 1% I'd have said.
Jeremy was proved right over the fostering. He'd also owned up to having used the rifle the night before when he heard rabbits ( fingerprint ) but what were Sheila's prints doing on that and at least two other guns ? No answer to that one.
He'd also mentioned that there was another " way in " to the property------through a window.
Jeremy need not, and shouldn't have told of these things because he played right into the hands of the law who were much cleverer in a cunning sort of a way than he was at the time and he'd unknowingly talked himself into a crime which he didn't do.
So it seemed that the truth went against him and what he'd said was used to convict him as everyone took it as an admission to murdering his family ???
Everything you have said, was Jeremy 'setting the scene' ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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After staging the scene at WHF, the next stage was to telephone the police. To tell them Neville had called him. After looking at this in more detail, is there now just a 1% chance this happened ?
1: Neville's decision to phone Bamber.
Well there are 60 reasons why Neville would not call Bamber. A thread has been created. He had lots of better options.
Neville obviously had time to consider other options. Otherwise he wouldn't have phoned Bamber. He wouldn't have time to think of all 60 reasons to not telephone Bamber. But a handful would flash across his mind. Resulting in him not phoning Bamber.
2: Bamber answering Neville's call.
Bamber told police he was 'sleeping like a log' at home.
If we are generous and say the phone rang 8 times before the answering machine worked, that is still less than 20 seconds. Bamber was upstairs and asleep. Perhaps with his bedroom door shut. He would almost certainly have not heard the phone and certainly would not have got to the phone before Neville had left a message.
Supporters say he would have turned the answering machine off when he got home. This is not credible. However if it was not on, it would be several minutes before a ringing phone would wake and entice Bamber to walk downstairs and answer. It would be poor judgement by Neville to wait that long in his situation. He had several better options.
3: Neville's 11 words to Bamber.
After deciding to ring Bamber, then wait several minutes for an answer, it is surprising Neville said just 11 words to him. The phone then going dead.
4: Bamber's reaction to Neville's call:
No one knows what they would do in this situation. A father calling a son at around 3am due to a crazy and dangerous daughter is a one off occurrence in England. As far as I am aware. However the consensus is that his actions were not credible.
He said he wasted time and called Julie to 'hear a friendly voice'.
Wasted time looking in the phone directly for the third and forth furthest away police stations, because 'he didn't think it would make any difference how quickly the police arrived'.
Didn't dial 999 because 'it didn't occur to him'.
Didn't go straight over to WHF although Neville had rang him and said 'please come over'.
Put several layers of clothes on and drove very slowly to WHF because he 'wanted to arrive after the police'.
Do other people now believe there is now only a 1% chance Neville's call happened ? And is 1% enough for 'reasonable doubt' ?
Its exactly posts like this that keep me away. One sided and full of (60 at least ) assumptions .
Preaching instead of discussing .
together with other threads on here the last few days I am afraid the bottom of the pit is being reached.
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Its exactly posts like this that keep me away. One sided and full of (60 at least ) assumptions .
Preaching instead of discussing .
together with other threads on here the last few days I am afraid the bottom of the pit is being reached.
Jan, believe me, you're not alone in thinking that. Over the last couple of days, EVERY line of human decency has been breached.
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Everything you have said, was Jeremy 'setting the scene' ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Not I. It's the way EP interpreted it as their way of getting their man. They had nothing else. A few twisted words and Bob's your uncle. Right name for that saying too. ;)
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Its exactly posts like this that keep me away. One sided and full of (60 at least ) assumptions .
Preaching instead of discussing .
together with other threads on here the last few days I am afraid the bottom of the pit is being reached.
Totally!!
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Would 1% be enough for you to have reasonable doubt and vote 'not guilty' ?
If so the law needs to change. Jurors having to be sure 'beyond any doubt'.
if theres a percent chance of somthing happing then thats actully very likely to happen someone at some time will be the one out of hundred if you had said a millon to 1 then you would have a point.
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if theres a percent chance of somthing happing then thats actully very likely to happen someone at some time will be the one out of hundred if you had said a millon to 1 then you would have a point.
It's a billion to 1.
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even if your calculation are accurate that still means it could be true.
its not 1%
Adam is making that up out of his own head.
Just look at the behaviour of the police when they arrived then you will get a clearer picture. For all they know Sheila could have been threatening to shoot herself - or even just waving the gun around. They had not a clue about a mass murder. They thought they were going just to calm down a sick woman.
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its not 1%
Adam is making that up out of his own head.
Just look at the behaviour of the police when they arrived then you will get a clearer picture. For all they know Sheila could have been threatening to shoot herself - or even just waving the gun around. They had not a clue about a mass murder. They thought they were going just to calm down a sick woman.
Well, they couldn't know until they entered the house but until they have assessed the situation, it is police procedure (where fire arms are concerned) not to enter.
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i dont see how the likelyhood can be caclated in number you can say its unlikely or very unlikely
but thats all.
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its not 1%
Adam is making that up out of his own head.
Just look at the behaviour of the police when they arrived then you will get a clearer picture. For all they know Sheila could have been threatening to shoot herself - or even just waving the gun around. They had not a clue about a mass murder. They thought they were going just to calm down a sick woman.
Did they, though? By the time they eventually went in, there must have been enough noise going on outside to have got SOME sort of indication that there was someone alive inside. They MAY only have done this exercise in theory/rehearsal, but as every minute went past with no response from inside, they must have had a fair idea that all was not well.
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That's why I said when they arrived .
They had not been told shots had been fired - that was not mentioned at all.
And the interpretation of a few brief words is easy in retrospect is it not?
for all they knew they could have gone there to find Sheila threatening to shoot herself in front of her father . Or she could have had a "crazy" shouting, threatening moment and then put the gun down by the time they got there .
I always criticised them for not going in to save the twins because they did not know they were dead - but to be fair when they arrived a threat to the twins was not even implicated by those few snatched words. the Dickinson report is interesting in setting out the time frame and the lack of communication.
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weather somthing is likely doesnt mean it dident happen i mean we have all had unlikely things happen to us havent.
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Its exactly posts like this that keep me away. One sided and full of (60 at least ) assumptions .
Preaching instead of discussing .
together with other threads on here the last few days I am afraid the bottom of the pit is being reached.
Are you referring to the posts about June and the secret Bamber daughter? If so, I agree. I think a lot of people have been staying away.
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After staging the scene at WHF, the next stage was to telephone the police. To tell them Neville had called him. After looking at this in more detail, is there now just a 1% chance this happened ?
1: Neville's decision to phone Bamber.
Well there are 60 reasons why Neville would not call Bamber. A thread has been created. He had lots of better options.
Neville obviously had time to consider other options. Otherwise he wouldn't have phoned Bamber. He wouldn't have time to think of all 60 reasons to not telephone Bamber. But a handful would flash across his mind. Resulting in him not phoning Bamber.
2: Bamber answering Neville's call.
Bamber told police he was 'sleeping like a log' at home.
If we are generous and say the phone rang 8 times before the answering machine worked, that is still less than 20 seconds. Bamber was upstairs and asleep. Perhaps with his bedroom door shut. He would almost certainly have not heard the phone and certainly would not have got to the phone before Neville had left a message.
Supporters say he would have turned the answering machine off when he got home. This is not credible. However if it was not on, it would be several minutes before a ringing phone would wake and entice Bamber to walk downstairs and answer. It would be poor judgement by Neville to wait that long in his situation. He had several better options.
3: Neville's 11 words to Bamber.
After deciding to ring Bamber, then wait several minutes for an answer, it is surprising Neville said just 11 words to him. The phone then going dead.
4: Bamber's reaction to Neville's call:
No one knows what they would do in this situation. A father calling a son at around 3am due to a crazy and dangerous daughter is a one off occurrence in England. As far as I am aware. However the consensus is that his actions were not credible.
He said he wasted time and called Julie to 'hear a friendly voice'.
Wasted time looking in the phone directly for the third and forth furthest away police stations, because 'he didn't think it would make any difference how quickly the police arrived'.
Didn't dial 999 because 'it didn't occur to him'.
Didn't go straight over to WHF although Neville had rang him and said 'please come over'.
Put several layers of clothes on and drove very slowly to WHF because he 'wanted to arrive after the police'.
Do other people now believe there is now only a 1% chance Neville's call happened ? And is 1% enough for 'reasonable doubt' ?
Hard to put a percentage on it. But there are a lot of reasons I think it is clear it didn't and wouldn't have happened.
Instead of a percentage I'd say it was non-nonsensical - a fabrication and a flop!
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Are you referring to the posts about June and the secret Bamber daughter? If so, I agree. I think a lot of people have been staying away.
Conspicuous by our absence, Mat.
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60 reasons, 11 words, 1%. Have you got a thing about numbers Adam.
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Are you referring to the posts about June and the secret Bamber daughter? If so, I agree. I think a lot of people have been staying away.
yes amongst others.
If it was true I would think it would be obvious that the person should be protected not outed on a public forum.
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secret bamber daughter i must of missed that one.
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60 reasons, 11 words, 1%. Have you got a thing about numbers Adam.
I don't think so - he is definitely not a mathematician ;)
probability is a word in his world - not a calculation.
And to have an accurate prediction of someones actions you would at least have to know them personally - not judge from reading books.
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yes amongst others.
If it was true I would think it would be obvious that the person should be protected not outed on a public forum.
i would of thought that 2.
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I don't think so - he is definitely not a mathematician ;)
probability is a word in his world - not a calculation.
And to have an accurate prediction of someones actions you would at least have to know them personally - not judge from reading books.
And have set up a statistical graph in which every variable applying to each of the listed points is given consideration.
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Haha
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i think theres a one in 10 chance that adams the hitman.
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60 reasons, 11 words, 1%. Have you got a thing about numbers Adam.
I will find the 60 facts for you.
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Sorry it was 40, not 60. Which is still a lot.
1: Jeremy may not answer. Regardless of whether he heard the phone ringing or not.
2:Neville may not have time to make phone calls. Sheila was going crazy. There were five people inside WHF who were the priority.
3: Jeremy may not answer for a long time as was 'sleeping like a log'.
4: Neville may only get the answering machine.
5: Neville will assume the answering machine is switched on. Making it impossible for Jeremy to answer the phone within 3 - 8 rings as he was 'sleeping like a log'.
6: Jeremy did not like Sheila or understand her illness. So would just make things worse when trying to talk her down.
7: Sheila did not like Jeremy.
8: Another adult, June was available at WHF.
9: The rifle was not powerful, being used for vermin. Neville would know this. So Neville would tackle Sheila prior to shots being fired.
10: Sheila had 'limited'/ no experience with guns. So Neville would tackle Sheila prior to shots being fired.
11: Neville could restrain Sheila easily. If fully or even partially fit.
12: Neville and June together could restrain Sheila easily. If fully or even partially fit.
13: Jeremy was three miles away, not dressed or awake.
14: The police had been called by Neville ten minutes earlier. According to Jeremy.
15: Neville would be putting his only son in danger.
16: Jeremy may be scared to go over. He told Liz Rimmington that Sheila was going 'back to the nut house' and told the police she had committed child abuse. Now Neville had told him she had 'gone crazy' with a gun.
17: Jeremy did not have a key to WHF so would have to smash the door down, or smash a window. Or shout through the letter box. Making Sheila more excitable. Neville may not have been aware that Jeremy could get in through windows.
18: Sheila would not be pleased to see him.
19: Jeremy would be reluctant to rush over if answering the phone. Having poor relations with all the family.
20: Jeremy may refuse to go over. Being tired and upset at being woken.Lookout said it was common for Sheila to have 'one of her turns' so he may have decided to go back to bed.
21: Jeremy may not rush over. Maybe wasting up to 26 minutes doing strange things.
22: Jeremy may just ring nearby farm workers and tell them to go over. Something Neville could do himself and may consider a better option.
23: Jeremy may just ring the Foakes's and tell them to go over. Something Neville could do and may consider a better option.
24: Neville calling someone would antagonise Sheila. She may even brutally beat someone.
25: Neville could call the Foakes's. Who were two adults living at WHF.
26: There was no time to make any calls if Sheila had 'gone' crazy with a gun.
27: When there was time to make a call Neville had the option of restraining Sheila. Getting June to assist.
28: There was no time to wait for someone to arrive. Sheila had 'gone 'crazy'.
28: Relations between the two were poor and getting worse. After Jeremy robbed the caravan site and spent the money.
30: Neville would be prepared to take a torso bullet in order to restrain Sheila. Knowing the gun was for shooting vermin/rabbits and a torso shot would not kill him.
31: The kitchen phone was downstairs. Meaning everyone would be left upstairs. Unless Sheila had accompanied him downstairs.
32: If the answering machine was switched off, as his supporters claim. Jeremy would not hear his downstairs phone. If his bedroom door was shut.
33: Neville was bigger and stronger than Jeremy and the head of the family.
34: Sheila would have to let Neville open the door when Jeremy arrives. Or Neville would have to put himself in danger by getting to the front door against Sheila's wishes.
35: Sheila is more likely to fire bullets if more people start pressurising her and arriving on the scene.
36: Neville would be aware that he was the person who always had most success in calming down an excited Sheila. If he couldn't, then someone who thought Sheila was a 'looney' certainly could not.
37: Jeremy was not known to be especially brave. So may refuse to go anywhere near the inside of WHF. Preferring to stay 50 yards from the entrance. This is what happened.
38: Neville would be implicating his son if there were any injuries or fatalities. As Jeremy would be first on the scene and first witness. This is what happened.
39: Jeremy was not known for being especially brave. So may have just phoned the police, which Neville had the option of doing. Neville had either already done this. Or wanted to keep things private. Jeremy did in fact call the police.
40: It is not standard practice to call relations on the phone at 3am when you're life is in danger. There are no other examples of this happening
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With the forensic and circumstantial against him, together with every bit of common sense pointing towards his guilt, it is amazing how determined he is.
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With the forensic and circumstantial against him, together with every bit of common sense pointing towards his guilt, it is amazing how determined he is.
It's even more amazing how many people fall for it. Whilst he is able to con people and get their attention and support he is always going to carry on.
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There is a thread on why he protests his innocence.
Psychologically it is probably a combination of what people have said
He is able to blank the crime out of his mind. Especially after 30 years.
He doesn't feel he did anything too wrong. Doing Colin a favour, taking his rightful inheritance etc.
He suffers from Narcarcisstic Immunity. Believing he is special and sheer force of personality will see him win.
He is upset that he wasn't able put one over on his family and his plan was not 'watertight'. A release would reverse that.
Admitting to the crime would make him look stupid. Especially after protesting his innocence.
He likes the attention and support.
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.....................He likes the attention and support.
NOTHING in psychology is black or white, but it's very possible that Jeremy FEELS himself more looked up to, to be given more respect, to be more cared about within the confined space of prison, where he has nothing, than in the outside world where money in bucket loads was necessary for him to attain it.
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Of course it is easy to say the call from Neville may or may not have happened - however there is no mathematical solution to the answer because If Sheila had just grabbed a gun and had not fired a shot then Neville was not going to sit there weighing up the pros and cons of what he was going to do . IF Jeremy is innocent its obvious that Neville did not think she was going to carry out whatever threat she was making. And because of all the time discrepancies including those of EP ( who were the one party who should have 100% no doubt in their timings ) then it is extremely hard to unravel the sequence.
Assuming what Neville would have been thinking or doing based on an assumption of what might have been happening at that precise moment is a bit of an insult in my opinion.
Because IF Jeremy is innocent both he and Neville made big mistakes.
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If Neville didn't think Sheila would use the gun, why didn't he just take the gun off her ? Although it's just as likely he would do this anyway.
It seemed like Neville did believe Sheila was going to use the rifle, going by the 11 words he said to Jeremy. As it happened, she did.
Why would Neville phone both Bamber and the police ? Bamber said Neville liked to keep things private. Which obviously explained why Bamber instantly phoned the police. Although he is now claiming Neville also phoned the police.
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The dog which was kept outside bothers me. Because farmworkers were in and around the farmhouse on a daily basis,the dog would have been well accustomed to the comings and goings of the family and the farmworkers. Why was it barking ? I'm aware that Crispy-type dogs bark at the least thing,but nevertheless unless something was going on even that wouldn't have been barking as it was.
Both dogs knew Jeremy so if it had been him getting in through a window,Crispy would possibly have barked anyway,but the Labrador wouldn't have.
How far from the farmhouse was the area where the Labrador was kept ?
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Neither dog appeared to have been barking when Neville made the call to Jeremy or he'd have mentioned hearing it/them.
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But if the call never happened, factoring dogs into the story probably wasn't something which occurred to Jeremy.
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If Neville didn't think Sheila would use the gun, why didn't he just take the gun off her ? Although it's just as likely he would do this anyway.
It seemed like Neville did believe Sheila was going to use the rifle, going by the 11 words he said to Jeremy. As it happened, she did.
Why would Neville phone both Bamber and the police ? Bamber said Neville liked to keep things private. Which obviously explained why Bamber instantly phoned the police. Although he is now claiming Neville also phoned the police.
I thought you said that Sheila when faced with a gun held by Jeremy would just agree to lie down in exactly the right position to make it look like suicide? Why ? because when someone is faced with a gun they just do as they are told?
So you have to use the same argument - As I have said before if you were faced with a 12 year old with a rifle I don't think your first instinct would be to take the gun off the child .
How do you know that Sheila was not pointing the gun at Nevilles head to make him phone Jeremy because she wanted to shoot him to?
How do you know she was not just waving the gun around and not actually shooting at that stage?
We have no idea of the sequence of what happened.
And how did his words indicate she was going to fire the gun? Only in retrospect can you say that ? For all we know "crazy" could be a word Neville used when she was having one of her episodes. You were always saying she showed no signs of violence so she cant be guilty ( not true actually) But if that was the case why on earth would Jeremy have any idea she could shoot the whole family ? So why would he immediately think this was a matter of life or death.
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Everything you have said, was Jeremy 'setting the scene' ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
or possibly not ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Neither dog appeared to have been barking when Neville made the call to Jeremy or he'd have mentioned hearing it/them.
Pity we hadn't known what time those dogs started to bark !
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But if the call never happened, factoring dogs into the story probably wasn't something which occurred to Jeremy.
As I said.............................
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I thought you said that Sheila when faced with a gun held by Jeremy would just agree to lie down in exactly the right position to make it look like suicide? Why ? because when someone is faced with a gun they just do as they are told?
So you have to use the same argument - As I have said before if you were faced with a 12 year old with a rifle I don't think your first instinct would be to take the gun off the child .
How do you know that Sheila was not pointing the gun at Nevilles head to make him phone Jeremy because she wanted to shoot him to?
How do you know she was not just waving the gun around and not actually shooting at that stage?
We have no idea of the sequence of what happened.
And how did his words indicate she was going to fire the gun? Only in retrospect can you say that ? For all we know "crazy" could be a word Neville used when she was having one of her episodes. You were always saying she showed no signs of violence so she cant be guilty ( not true actually) But if that was the case why on earth would Jeremy have any idea she could shoot the whole family ? So why would he immediately think this was a matter of life or death.
Good post Jan, fair comment imo
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Pity we hadn't known what time those dogs started to bark !
There was every likelihood of someone still being alive when police reached WHF and heard them both barking. After they'd stopped barking it would have become that those inside had died. I'd have made a note of the time that dogs fell silent..
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I thought you said that Sheila when faced with a gun held by Jeremy would just agree to lie down in exactly the right position to make it look like suicide? Why ? because when someone is faced with a gun they just do as they are told?
So you have to use the same argument - As I have said before if you were faced with a 12 year old with a rifle I don't think your first instinct would be to take the gun off the child .
How do you know that Sheila was not pointing the gun at Nevilles head to make him phone Jeremy because she wanted to shoot him to?
How do you know she was not just waving the gun around and not actually shooting at that stage?
We have no idea of the sequence of what happened.
And how did his words indicate she was going to fire the gun? Only in retrospect can you say that ? For all we know "crazy" could be a word Neville used when she was having one of her episodes. You were always saying she showed no signs of violence so she cant be guilty ( not true actually) But if that was the case why on earth would Jeremy have any idea she could shoot the whole family ? So why would he immediately think this was a matter of life or death.
There are lots of ways Sheila could have ended up in the main bedroom. Woken and lead, carried or had gone there herself. Recently people are claiming Sheila may have slept in the main bedroom.
April and xxxxxx are also saying Sheila may have been reading the bible out loud in the main bedroom while Bamber and Neville were downstairs. .
If I had a 12 year old who was holding a weak rifle, I would tackle the person. Especially, if I did not believe they would use it. Which you suggested was Neville's stance.
Sheila waving the gun around ? Was she doing the WMCA dance ?
Sheila making Neville phone Jeremy ? Her thought processes were pretty clear for someone in a psychotic rage. Best that Neville is a bit calmer when speaking to Bamber.
Bamber seemed to indicate it was a matter of life and death to the police. Sheila was a 'nutter', 'looney', 'psychotic depressive', 'do lally' and 'should be locked up'. There were guns inside WHF which Sheila knew how to use. Bamber even drew potential hiding places for the raid team where Sheila may be. Although to be fair his other actions did not indicate he thought the matter was urgent.
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There are lots of ways Sheila could have ended up in the main bedroom. Woken and lead, carried or had gone there herself. Recently people are claiming Sheila may have slept in the main bedroom.
April and xxxxxx are also saying Sheila may have been reading the bible out loud in the main bedroom while Bamber and Neville were downstairs. .
If I had a 12 year old who was holding a weak rifle, I would tackle the person. Especially, if I did not believe they would use it. Which you suggested was Neville's stance.
Sheila waving the gun around ? Was she doing the WMCA dance ?
Sheila making Neville phone Jeremy ? Her thought processes were pretty clear for someone in a psychotic rage. Best that Neville is a bit calmer when speaking to Bamber.
Bamber seemed to indicate it was a matter of life and death to the police. Sheila was a 'nutter', 'looney', 'psychotic depressive', 'do lally' and 'should be locked up'. There were guns inside WHF which Sheila knew how to use. He even drew potential hiding places where Sheila may be. Although to be fair his other actions did not indicate he thought the matter was urgent.
Adam, I have edited my name out because as I have told you before I 'claim' no such thing, am not sure if April/Jane agrees she every 'claimed' this but am willing to edit her too if she disagrees with you.
I agree it appears there is evidence pointing to the fact that Sheila MAY have been sleeping with June that night which would explain why she was found dead where she was but no one knows for certain.
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Adam, I have edited my name out because as I have told you before I 'claim' no such thing, am not sure if April/Jane agrees she every 'claimed' this but am willing to edit her too if she disagrees with you.
I agree it appears there is evidence pointing to the fact that Sheila MAY have been sleeping with June that night which would explain why she was found dead where she was but no one knows for certain.
April made the suggestion. You quoted it and typed 'possible'.
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April made the suggestion. You quoted it and typed 'possible'.
'Possible' doesn't mean 'claim'. :'(
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There are lots of ways Sheila could have ended up in the main bedroom. Woken and lead, carried or had gone there herself. Recently people are claiming Sheila may have slept in the main bedroom.
April and xxxxxx are also saying Sheila may have been reading the bible out loud in the main bedroom while Bamber and Neville were downstairs. .
If I had a 12 year old who was holding a weak rifle, I would tackle the person. Especially, if I did not believe they would use it. Which you suggested was Neville's stance.
Sheila waving the gun around ? Was she doing the WMCA dance ?
Sheila making Neville phone Jeremy ? Her thought processes were pretty clear for someone in a psychotic rage. Best that Neville is a bit calmer when speaking to Bamber.
Bamber seemed to indicate it was a matter of life and death to the police. Sheila was a 'nutter', 'looney', 'psychotic depressive', 'do lally' and 'should be locked up'. There were guns inside WHF which Sheila knew how to use. He even drew potential hiding places where Sheila may be. Although to be fair his other actions did not indicate he thought the matter was urgent.
I find myself wondering if you get some sort of twisted pleasure from responding to posts like a moronic xxxx. Only YOU can make the phrase "People claim................." sound like a sneer.
I did/DO think it POSSIBLE,that had Sheila found herself in a terrifying situation over which she had no control, she MAY have picked up a bible and trying to "drown" her fear, read aloud from it. In moments of abject terror people have been known to pray aloud. Unlike you, I'm not given to making sweeping claims.
I wonder what you think you mean by "a weak" rifle? Do you perhaps mean one which has had the firing mechanism removed?.............or a toy one? Whilst being no expert, I feel certain that there's a vast difference between firearms, but I'm also fairly certain that a shotgun will only wound if fired inaccurately, whilst an accurately fired "weak" rifle can kill.
As Jan said, NONE of us knows what was the sequence of events. I don't believe the phone call happened, but I DO believe that to give his story authenticity, Jeremy would have used words to describe it that Nevill MAY have used. "Crazy" was possibly the way in which he'd described Sheila in previous episodes.
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April made the suggestion. You quoted it and typed 'possible'.
Must have missed this. The dictionary -and I- agree that "suggestion" means an idea which is put forward for consideration. This would make it a possibility. What it DOESN'T make it is a claim. There is also evidence to suggest the POSSIBILITY that Sheila was spending the night in the master bedroom.
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There are lots of ways Sheila could have ended up in the main bedroom. Woken and lead, carried or had gone there herself. Recently people are claiming Sheila may have slept in the main bedroom.
April and xxxxxx are also saying Sheila may have been reading the bible out loud in the main bedroom while Bamber and Neville were downstairs. .
If I had a 12 year old who was holding a weak rifle, I would tackle the person. Especially, if I did not believe they would use it. Which you suggested was Neville's stance.
Sheila waving the gun around ? Was she doing the WMCA dance ?
Sheila making Neville phone Jeremy ? Her thought processes were pretty clear for someone in a psychotic rage. Best that Neville is a bit calmer when speaking to Bamber.
Bamber seemed to indicate it was a matter of life and death to the police. Sheila was a 'nutter', 'looney', 'psychotic depressive', 'do lally' and 'should be locked up'. There were guns inside WHF which Sheila knew how to use. Bamber even drew potential hiding places for the raid team where Sheila may be. Although to be fair his other actions did not indicate he thought the matter was urgent.
You just don't get it do you . No matter how you try and defend your scenarios you have about as much Idea as the rest of us ( none) as to what happened at the time of the call ( if it happened)
And I don't know whether you think the YMCA quote is funny - but it is not.
And you don't have to repeat the words that were allegedly used to describe Sheila . They are now not PC and we know about the use of them because you have posted them many many times before ( I wont insult your intelligence by putting a mathematical estimate on your postings)
And as for Sheila being in the other bedroom - yes she could have been - possibly -at one time during the evening - that proves nothing as we were all at pains to point out . But you obviously missed that bit.
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You just don't get it do you . No matter how you try and defend your scenarios you have about as much Idea as the rest of us ( none) as to what happened at the time of the call ( if it happened)
And I don't know whether you think the YMCA quote is funny - but it is not.
And you don't have to repeat the words that were allegedly used to describe Sheila . They are now not PC and we know about the use of them because you have posted them many many times before ( I wont insult your intelligence by putting a mathematical estimate on your postings)
And as for Sheila being in the other bedroom - yes she could have been - possibly -at one time during the evening - that proves nothing as we were all at pains to point out . But you obviously missed that bit.
Jan I have thought that Sheila may have been on the double bed with June and Ralph in Sheila's room but what puzzles me the beds in there do not look slept in although AE did say she was surprised the other bed (not Sheila's) was made up ready for sleeping in. As you have quoted none of us know what happened we can only speculate and that includes Adam.
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I think possibly at one stage June and Sheila could have been talking or reading the bible and perhaps Neville laid on top of the other bed not wanting to disturb them - But who knows what happened after that ? There are lots of scenarios
perhaps Sheila could not sleep and went downstairs ? Perhaps Neville heard her and went down stairs ?
who knows.
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I think possibly at one stage June and Sheila could have been talking or reading the bible and perhaps Neville laid on top of the other bed not wanting to disturb them - But who knows what happened after that ? There are lots of scenarios
perhaps Sheila could not sleep and went downstairs ? Perhaps Neville heard her and went down stairs ?
who knows.
Jan, which room are you speaking about? Were there not two singles in Sheila's room and one large -6ft- double in the master bedroom?
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I think possibly at one stage June and Sheila could have been talking or reading the bible and perhaps Neville laid on top of the other bed not wanting to disturb them - But who knows what happened after that ? There are lots of scenarios
perhaps Sheila could not sleep and went downstairs ? Perhaps Neville heard her and went down stairs ?
who knows.
In the middle of the night Nevill and June decided to go wake up Sheila and Nevill lied on her bed while she and June sat on the other bed (though it was being used by Sheila as a table so all her crap was on it) so they could read the Bible together?
You make up absurd things in an effort to try to pretend that Sheila was doing something with them in the middle of the night then snapped.
The evidence makes clear the killer shot both parents in the master bedroom (June in bed and Nevill was getting out of bed) till the gun was empty, the killer or Nevill ran to the kitchen with the other in pursuit where the killer beat and killed Nevill, then reloaded, killed the boys and Sheila, and set about staging the scene including but not limited to staging too many bullets in the kitchen, removing the moderator from the gun and putting it away, placing the gun across her body and staging the Bible. Try making up something that could save Jeremy that actually comports with the evidence.
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Jan, which room are you speaking about? Were there not two singles in Sheila's room and one large -6ft- double in the master bedroom?
I meant he laid on top of one of the singles in Sheilas room - hence the slippers.
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In the middle of the night Nevill and June decided to go wake up Sheila and Nevill lied on her bed while she and June sat on the other bed (though it was being used by Sheila as a table so all her crap was on it) so they could read the Bible together?
You make up absurd things in an effort to try to pretend that Sheila was doing something with them in the middle of the night then snapped.
The evidence makes clear the killer shot both parents in the master bedroom (June in bed and Nevill was getting out of bed) till the gun was empty, the killer or Nevill ran to the kitchen with the other in pursuit where the killer beat and killed Nevill, then reloaded, killed the boys and Sheila, and set about staging the scene including but not limited to staging too many bullets in the kitchen, removing the moderator from the gun and putting it away, placing the gun across her body and staging the Bible. Try making up something that could save Jeremy that actually comports with the evidence.
xxxx
That's not what I said at all .
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I think possibly at one stage June and Sheila could have been talking or reading the bible and perhaps Neville laid on top of the other bed not wanting to disturb them - But who knows what happened after that ? There are lots of scenarios
perhaps Sheila could not sleep and went downstairs ? Perhaps Neville heard her and went down stairs ?
who knows.
If Sheila was in the main bedroom that night, I think she would have been there to sleep - either because June was worried about her (as per the call to Pam) or she wanted to be nearer the twins. I find it hard to believe there was any 'bible reading' and if she did sleep there, it was simply for convenience.
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If Sheila was in the main bedroom that night, I think she would have been there to sleep - either because June was worried about her (as per the call to Pam) or she wanted to be nearer the twins. I find it hard to believe there was any 'bible reading' and if she did sleep there, it was simply for convenience.
It's likely that any bible reading would have been done by June. I believe it to have been her bedtime habit. WOULD she have foregone this because Sheila was there? I certainly don't believe there to have been a bible class.
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If Sheila was in the main bedroom that night, I think she would have been there to sleep - either because June was worried about her (as per the call to Pam) or she wanted to be nearer the twins. I find it hard to believe there was any 'bible reading' and if she did sleep there, it was simply for convenience.
yes or they could have just laid on the bed having a heart to heart.
Which would mean that if Jeremy is the killer he came across them both lain on the bed. wonder what Sheila was doing whilst he shot her mother?
Waiting to be laid down to be shot in the correct position to look like suicide?
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yes or they could have just laid on the bed having a heart to heart.
Which would mean that if Jeremy is the killer he came across them both lain on the bed. wonder what Sheila was doing whilst he shot her mother?
Waiting to be laid down to be shot in the correct position to look like suicide?
Frozen with fear? Rigid with shock? Reading the bible out loud?
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Jan I have thought that Sheila may have been on the double bed with June and Ralph in Sheila's room but what puzzles me the beds in there do not look slept in although AE did say she was surprised the other bed (not Sheila's) was made up ready for sleeping in. As you have quoted none of us know what happened we can only speculate and that includes Adam.
I just say what I think happened.
To be fair my detailed point by point scenario matches the crime scene and bullet allocation. CAL has a slightly different scenario, and so do the police. But at least they have scenarios, unlike supporters.
Or I give my opinion on other peoples views. Jan thought Sheila may have just been waving the gun around. Or that Sheila had forced Neville to call Bamber. Of which I gave my opinions.
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I just say what I think happened.
To be fair my detailed point by point scenario matches the crime scene and bullet allocation. CAL has a slightly different scenario, and so do the police. But at least they have scenarios, unlike supporters.
Or I give my opinion on other peoples views. Jan thought Sheila may have just been waving the gun around. Or that Sheila had forced Neville to call Bamber. Of which I gave my opinions.
Adam - everyone has provided scenarios. They mean diddily squat.
And you have changed yours - remember the one where Sheila was carried asleep to be shot?
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I think possibly at one stage June and Sheila could have been talking or reading the bible and perhaps Neville laid on top of the other bed not wanting to disturb them - But who knows what happened after that ? There are lots of scenarios
perhaps Sheila could not sleep and went downstairs ? Perhaps Neville heard her and went down stairs ?
who knows.
Perhaps Neville and June went to bed in their normal bed in the main bedroom. They were shot there.
Perhaps Sheila went to bed in the spare bedroom she had been allocated.
Stranger things have happened.
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Perhaps Neville and June went to bed in their normal bed in the main bedroom. They were shot there.
Perhaps Sheila went to bed in the bedroom she had been allocated.
Stranger things have happened.
Adam how do you account for the stuffed toy in the bed? Jeremy told Caroline it was Nevill's but can you believe that he and June slept with it in their bed?
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Adam - everyone has provided scenarios. They mean diddily squat.
And you have changed yours - remember the one where Sheila was carried asleep to be shot?
I haven't changed that.
There are lots of ways Sheila could have ended up in the main bedroom.
Bamber was perfectly capable of carrying an asleep Sheila a few feet.
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Perhaps Neville and June went to bed in their normal bed in the main bedroom. They were shot there.
Perhaps Sheila went to bed in the bedroom she had been allocated.
Stranger things have happened.
Adam
it has been established that blood belonging to Ralph was found outside Sheila's bedroom and it would appear that none of his blood was found in the main bedroom.
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yes or they could have just laid on the bed having a heart to heart.
Which would mean that if Jeremy is the killer he came across them both lain on the bed. wonder what Sheila was doing whilst he shot her mother?
Waiting to be laid down to be shot in the correct position to look like suicide?
No, I have my own ideas about that but I'm not saying at the moment.
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Adam how do you account for the stuffed toy in the bed? Jeremy told Caroline it was Nevill's but can you believe that he and June slept with it in their bed?
Stuffed toy ?
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I haven't changed that.
There are lots of ways Sheila could have ended up in the main bedroom.
Bamber was perfectly capable of carrying an asleep Sheila a few feet.
Why would Jeremy take the risk or put himself to the trouble of carrying Sheila all that way when there was no need for her to be found in the main bedroom?
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Adam how do you account for the stuffed toy in the bed? Jeremy told Caroline it was Nevill's but can you believe that he and June slept with it in their bed?
Maggie why would Jeremy need to tell lies about the stuffed toy in the bed none of this makes sense to me it could have been one of the twins who put the toy in the bed. Sheila would not have taken a toy to bed with her it is all so strange :'(
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Stuffed toy ?
The MASSIVE teddy bear in the middle of the bed!!
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Stuffed toy ?
In the photographs of June and Nevill's bed there is what has been described as a teddy bear in the bed, don't you find that a bit curious?
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Adam
it has been established that blood belonging to Ralph was found outside Sheila's bedroom and it would appear that none of his blood was found in the main bedroom.
If Neville was shot while moving out of the bedroom, it is unlikely that any blood would have dropped onto the main bedroom floor. However the bullet allocation shows Neville was shot there.
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Why would Jeremy take the risk or put himself to the trouble of carrying Sheila all that way when there was no need for her to be found in the main bedroom?
Maggie
exactly if Jeremy was responsible for the murders Sheila was in the main bedroom of her own accord when she was shot she was carried from nowhere asleep or not.
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Stuffed toy ?
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=39404)
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If Neville was shot while moving out of the bedroom, it is unlikely that any blood would have dropped onto the main bedroom floor. However the bullet allocation shows Neville was shot there.
Adam not sure you are correct with your bullet allocation will need to check that out. If he was shot whilst in bed one would expect some blood on the bed covers.
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Why would Jeremy take the risk or put himself to the trouble of carrying Sheila all that way when there was no need for her to be found in the main bedroom?
She had to be found somewhere. As Bamber had to create the scene of murder/suicide. Committed by Sheila.
Was the twins bedroom nearer ?
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Maggie why would Jeremy need to tell lies about the stuffed toy in the bed none of this makes sense to me it could have been one of the twins who put the toy in the bed. Sheila would not have taken a toy to bed with her it is all so strange :'(
I know it's very strange but Jeremy told Caroline it was Nevill's teddy which it may have been. It may have been bought for him as a joke or he may have won it at a fair or something? I don't believe he slept with the thing in his bed but Sheila may have as a divide or some other reason. If the twins had put it n the bed then surely it would have been chucked out when they went to bed?
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(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=39404)
That does look like a teddy.
Seems strange to me that a 27 year old woman would sleep with her mother and father. Would rather sleep in my own bed to be honest.
Thought Sheila and June didn't get along.
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I know it's very strange but Jeremy told Caroline it was Nevill's teddy which it may have been. It may have been bought for him as a joke or he may have won it at a fair or something? I don't believe he slept with the thing in his bed but Sheila may have as a divide or some other reason. If the twins had put it n the bed then surely it would have been chucked out when they went to bed?
Maggie
I see your point of view but surely Sheila would not have had a huge teddy bear so why was in there and who put it there could it have been Jeremy maybe it belonged to Ralph from times gone by and Jeremy resented this. I am at a loss.
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She had to be found somewhere. As Bamber had to create the scene of murder/suicide. Committed by Sheila.
Was the twins bedroom nearer ?
Why not her own bedroom? There's no reason why not and as I say far simpler than carrying an almost 5'8" woman, that wouldn't have been easy. I suppose he could have given her a fireman's lift but why bother to take the risk of controlling her and the gun any more than he had to? It seems right to me that she was already in the bedroom.
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Why not her own bedroom? There's no reason why not and as I say far simpler than carrying an almost 5'8" woman, that wouldn't have been easy. I suppose he could have given her a fireman's lift but why bother to take the risk of controlling her and the gun any more than he had to? It seems right to me that she was already in the bedroom.
Maggie Colin stated in his book that had Sheila committed suicide she would have done it in her boys room so they would all be together so it was not necessary for her to be found in the main bedroom infact she could have been found in her own bedroom.
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Why not her own bedroom? There's no reason why not and as I say far simpler than carrying an almost 5'8" woman, that wouldn't have been easy. I suppose he could have given her a fireman's lift but why bother to take the risk of controlling her and the gun any more than he had to? It seems right to me that she was already in the bedroom.
Hmm? Sheila in his arms? Gun in his...................ooops!!!!
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That does look like a teddy.
Seems strange to me that a 27 year old woman would sleep with her mother and father. Would rather sleep in my own bed to be honest.
Thought Sheila and June didn't get along.
During the phone call with Pamela, June tod her that she was worried about Sheila as she very vague and distant. There is a possibility she didn't want to be alone that night or June wanted to be with her because she was unwell. I don't think for a moment the three of them would have slept together but June was Sheila's Mum and although they didn't get along well in some instances, relationships between Mother's and Daughter's can be very complex.
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That does look like a teddy.
Seems strange to me that a 27 year old woman would sleep with her mother and father. Would rather sleep in my own bed to be honest.
Thought Sheila and June didn't get along.
Adam nobody has suggested Sheila slept with her Mother and Father just her Mother June. I am sure they did not get on from time to time but Sheila would love June she was her Mother.
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Maggie Colin stated in his book that had Sheila committed suicide she would have done it in her boys room so they would all be together so it was not necessary for her to be found in the main bedroom infact she could have been found in her own bedroom.
I know, I have always found t strange she was found there, it didn't seem to make sense at all, why take her to the main bedroom at all? If he was staging a suicide carefully and choosing where she died it's far more likely he would choose the boys room so we may assume that Sheila died where she was found because the simple answer is usually the right one. :-\
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Hmm? Sheila in his arms? Gun in his...................ooops!!!!
Exactly and I must say if he used a fireman's lift he would have been very vulnerable to a knee somewhere painful, she had very long legs, how could he possibly have carried her? Where woud he have put her legs and arms? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Why not her own bedroom? There's no reason why not and as I say far simpler than carrying an almost 5'8" woman, that wouldn't have been easy. I suppose he could have given her a fireman's lift but why bother to take the risk of controlling her and the gun any more than he had to? It seems right to me that she was already in the bedroom.
So she would kill everyone, then go to her own bedroom and shoot herself alone.
CC said Sheila was more likely to shoot herself with the twins. Bamber chose the wrong room. That's if he instigated moving her.
Sheila was a recovering anorexic. So very light.
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Exactly and I must say if he used a fireman's lift he would have been very vulnerable to a knee somewhere painful, she had very long legs, how could he possibly have carried her? Where woud he have put her legs and arms? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
[/quote
Maggie you are forgetting Sheila was sleeping when Jeremy carried her from her bed into the main bedroom ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Any other mother would have died protecting her children. This is what I'd have done if I'd known I was going to die.
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I know, I have always found t strange she was found there, it didn't seem to make sense at all, why take her to the main bedroom at all? If he was staging a suicide carefully and choosing where she died it's far more likely he would choose the boys room so we may assume that Sheila died where she was found because the simple answer is usually the right one. :'(
[/quote
Maggie
that is quite right the simple answer is usually the right one :'(]
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Maggie
I see your point of view but surely Sheila would not have had a huge teddy bear so why was in there and who put it there could it have been Jeremy maybe it belonged to Ralph from times gone by and Jeremy resented this. I am at a loss.
That teddy seems so incongruous and somehow no one mentions it although it is the one object out of place in the bedroom which makes you think. Jeremy said you should always tell the truth when you can and by saying the teddy was Nevill's I believe he told the truth but by saying that he also insinuated Nevill was asleep there that night but that makes no sense. Nevill wouldn't have slept with that bear.... would he? Sheila may have, Caroline suggests as a barrier between herself and June which is possible or Sheila may have slept with a cuddly toy or a teddy when she was on her own, some people do and she was definitely emotionally vulnerable and may have got some comfort from something to cuddle??? :-\
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Any other mother would have died protecting her children. This is what I'd have done if I'd known I was going to die.
Well June very possibly died protecting Sheila, we know she walked round to that side of the bed before walking back. Why did she do this when she was so badly injured? Could she have been making for the boys room or was it something to do with Sheila? Poor June, I feel for her as I believe she suffered really badly.
I suppose if Sheila and June were caught off guard it may not have been possible to get to the boys before they died?
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That teddy seems so incongruous and somehow no one mentions it although it is the one object out of place in the bedroom which makes you think. Jeremy said you should always tell the truth when you can and by saying the teddy was Nevill's I believe he told the truth but by saying that he also insinuated Nevill was asleep there that night but that makes no sense. Nevill wouldn't have slept with that bear.... would he? Sheila may have, Caroline suggests as a barrier between herself and June which is possible or Sheila may have slept with a cuddly toy or a teddy when she was on her own, some people do and she was definitely emotionally vulnerable and may have got some comfort from something to cuddle??? :-\
Maggie
I have seen it suggested on here that the teddy bear was a barrier between Ralph and June but I just don't buy that and I do wonder if Jeremy put it there to try and belittle his Father just a thought but could be so wrong and like other stuff we will never know but why would Jeremy have a need to tell lies about a teddy bear :'(
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Well June very possibly died protecting Sheila, we know she walked round to that side of the bed before walking back. Why did she do this when she was so badly injured? Could she have been making for the boys room or was it something to do with Sheila? Poor June, I feel for her as I believe she suffered really badly.
I suppose if Sheila and June were caught off guard it may not have been possible to get to the boys before they died?
June also went into the sewing room because of her blood having been found on the carpet there. The same drips that were in the main bedroom by Sheila. What was she doing wandering about when she probably had enough breath in her to have phoned the police from the upstairs office,I don't know. Just a 999 would have done as the address would have been traced. The three of them had enough time between them to have rang the emergency services,so why didn't they ?
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Maggie
I have seen it suggested on here that the teddy bear was a barrier between Ralph and June but I just don't buy that and I do wonder if Jeremy put it there to try and belittle his Father just a thought but could be so wrong and like other stuff we will never know but why would Jeremy have a need to tell lies about a teddy bear :'(
I agree with you, I don't believe he told a lie I think he told the truth ie. it was Nevill's but that infers Nevill was sleeping there but can't accept that. I know it has been said it was a barrier between June and Nevill but have to say that is crazy if they didn't want to sleep together they would have had separate beds imo. :-\ :-\
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June also went into the sewing room because of her blood having been found on the carpet there. The same drips that were in the main bedroom by Sheila. What was she doing wandering about when she probably had enough breath in her to have phoned the police from the upstairs office,I don't know. Just a 999 would have done as the address would have been traced. The three of them had enough time between them to have rang the emergency services,so why didn't they ?
I don't know, I would imagine once you have a few bullets in you although still able to move around you are in a state of extreme shock and bewilderment, especialy if you had been sleeping?
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June also went into the sewing room because of her blood having been found on the carpet there. The same drips that were in the main bedroom by Sheila. What was she doing wandering about when she probably had enough breath in her to have phoned the police from the upstairs office,I don't know. Just a 999 would have done as the address would have been traced. The three of them had enough time between them to have rang the emergency services,so why didn't they ?
How much blood was in the sewing room and can we be sure that blood was from the same occasion. June had lived there a long time so may have bled there on some othere occasion? Just a thought, Lookout :)
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I agree with you, I don't believe he told a lie I think he told the truth ie. it was Nevill's but that infers Nevill was sleeping there but can't accept that. I know it has been said it was a barrier between June and Nevill but have to say that is crazy if they didn't want to sleep together they would have had separate beds imo. :-\ :-\
Maggie
I still think Jeremy was telling the truth about the bear he had no reason to lie.
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Maggie
I still think Jeremy was telling the truth about the bear he had no reason to lie.
I agree with you, I do believe he was telling the truth and it was Nevill's bear but I don't believe he would have slept with it which makes me wonder why it was there and why Sheila was there and one explanation for that was that Sheila was sleeping with the bear in that bed.
If Jeremy was the killer and was surprised to find Sheila in bed with June instead of Nevill his plan would have been ruined but he had no option but to shoot them and deal with Nevill as quickly as possible but he has to go along with the story that June and Nevill were in the bed with the teddy even though he knows differently.... if you see what I mean. :)
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The MASSIVE teddy bear in the middle of the bed!!
that shows he does not read other peoples posts - we have mentioned for ages how weird it was that a huge teddy would be in the middle of the marital bed. It does not seem like Nevilles style ???
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I agree with you, I do believe he was telling the truth and it was Nevill's bear but I don't believe he would have slept with it which makes me wonder why it was there and why Sheila was there and one explanation for that was that Sheila was sleeping with the bear in that bed.
If Jeremy was the killer and was surprised to find Sheila in bed with June instead of Nevill his plan would have been ruined but he had no option but to shoot them and deal with Nevill as quickly as possible but he has to go along with the story that June and Nevill were in the bed with the teddy even though he knows differently.... if you see what I mean. :)
Sheila was protective of the twins so I don't see in this scenario why she didn't enter their room via the connecting door. From Julie's statement Jeremy told her Sheila was shot last and this still makes more sense to me.
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That does look like a teddy.
Seems strange to me that a 27 year old woman would sleep with her mother and father. Would rather sleep in my own bed to be honest.
Thought Sheila and June didn't get along.
Do you not comprehend relationships within a family ? You say Jeremy had not spoken to his mother for years - but he was a regular visitor to the farmhouse and a share holder in their businesses at age 24.
June helped out Sheila all the time - but yes they had their UPS and DOWNs - that is what happens in families some times . Colin describes happy family times and unhappy family times - I think that is quite normal . Colin is someone who knew the family and if there is a book you should read perhaps that is one that might give you some insight.
If Sheila was depressed while she was in the house then perhaps she did turn to her parents? Perhaps she found them controlling ? Perhaps she found her mother interfering and judgemental at times but there are happy family photos as well. Nothing is so black and white.
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Sheila was protective of the twins so I don't see in this scenario why she didn't enter their room via the connecting door. From Julie's statement Jeremy told her Sheila was shot last and this still makes more sense to me.
If she was shot once in the neck and then finished off later, she may not have got any further than the side of the bed even if her intent was to get to the twins???
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I agree with you, I do believe he was telling the truth and it was Nevill's bear but I don't believe he would have slept with it which makes me wonder why it was there and why Sheila was there and one explanation for that was that Sheila was sleeping with the bear in that bed.
If Jeremy was the killer and was surprised to find Sheila in bed with June instead of Nevill his plan would have been ruined but he had no option but to shoot them and deal with Nevill as quickly as possible but he has to go along with the story that June and Nevill were in the bed with the teddy even though he knows differently.... if you see what I mean. :)
Maggie
none of it makes sense to me why did Sheila not climb into bed with one of her boys and why did the bed in Sheila's room not have the covers back like somebody was sleeping in that bed I know it was August but Ralph would have required some covers over him.
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Maggie Colin stated in his book that had Sheila committed suicide she would have done it in her boys room so they would all be together so it was not necessary for her to be found in the main bedroom infact she could have been found in her own bedroom.
But if she was capable of killing her own sons I don't think a logic like that can be applied to be honest. She stated that she felt she was a threat to her own sons and I don't want to repeat the reason why - so I don't think that killing herself I the same room would have occurred to her.
It depends whether she was actually seeing them as her sons ?
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Maggie
none of it makes sense to me why did Sheila not climb into bed with one of her boys and why did the bed in Sheila's room not have the covers back like somebody was sleeping in that bed I know it was August but Ralph would have required some covers over him.
I agree it's only supposition and I have no idea where Nevill was but that teddy makes me wonder ....
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But if she was capable of killing her own sons I don't think a logic like that can be applied to be honest. She stated that she felt she was a threat to her own sons and I don't want to repeat the reason why - so I don't think that killing herself I the same room would have occurred to her.
It depends whether she was actually seeing them as her sons ?
Also I would like to add that I bet that none of the family including Jeremy were aware of her feelings about her sons - otherwise they never would have let her look after them ever . That was confidential between her and her medical team . so I don't get how Jeremy thought it would be so easy to get everyone to accept that she had killed her own children .
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That does look like a teddy.
Seems strange to me that a 27 year old woman would sleep with her mother and father. Would rather sleep in my own bed to be honest.
Thought Sheila and June didn't get along.
WE NEVER SAID SHE SLEPT THERE.
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But if she was capable of killing her own sons I don't think a logic like that can be applied to be honest. She stated that she felt she was a threat to her own sons and I don't want to repeat the reason why - so I don't think that killing herself I the same room would have occurred to her.
It depends whether she was actually seeing them as her sons ?
Jan, I agree if Sheila killed in a psychotic episode whether frenzied or not her mind would have been distorted, no one can believe she was in her right mind when she killed her boys therefore as you say she wouldn't have behaved rationally at all so it's pointless looking for rational behaviour.
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WE NEVER SAID SHE SLEPT THERE.
sorry I resorted to capitals ( shouting ) which I hate .
Other things going on in my life , a moment where my self control slipped.
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sorry I resorted to capitals ( shouting ) which I hate .
Other things going on in my life , a moment where my self control slipped.
Very honest of you Jan, sometimes my finger just slips ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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But if she was capable of killing her own sons I don't think a logic like that can be applied to be honest. She stated that she felt she was a threat to her own sons and I don't want to repeat the reason why - so I don't think that killing herself I the same room would have occurred to her.
It depends whether she was actually seeing them as her sons ?
Jan I can see where you are coming from and we have always said on here we all see things so differently depending on who we think was responsible but I respect your point of view and you could of course be right and me totally wrong as I struggle trying to fit the pieces together.
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Jan, I agree if Sheila killed in a psychotic episode whether frenzied or not her mind would have been distorted, no one can believe she was in her right mind when she killed her boys therefore as you say she wouldn't have behaved rationally at all so it's pointless looking for rational behaviour.
I had always thought that , but also there is the possibility like a recent case where she was so depressed that she felt she would be abandoning them if she did not take them with her . Perhaps she was on her way back to their room when something happened that made her think she had to commit suicide at that moment .
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sorry I resorted to capitals ( shouting ) which I hate .
Other things going on in my life , a moment where my self control slipped.
Jan we know you would never shout at us deliberately you are too nice for that :)
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WE NEVER SAID SHE SLEPT THERE.
He does it deliberately, Jan. Plays thick to wind people up. It's a mask to cover his refusal to accept any theory other than his own.
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Jan I can see where you are coming from and we have always said on here we all see things so differently depending on who we think was responsible but I respect your point of view and you could of course be right and me totally wrong as I struggle trying to fit the pieces together.
to be honest I just like a good debate and like to see both sides - but there are plenty of guilters at the moment so I like to provide a balance .
I still though have not seen one probable (99% ;D) scenario how Sheila would allow herself to be shot in that way/ in that position with no resistance or defensive action- logically or purely animal instinct. And if she had fought back or even put her hands up in human reaction his whole plan would have fallen to pieces and been destroyed - what was he back up plan then?
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He does it deliberately, Jan. Plays thick to wind people up. It's a mask to cover his refusal to accept any theory other than his own.
glad its not just me then :)
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Jan, I agree if Sheila killed in a psychotic episode whether frenzied or not her mind would have been distorted, no one can believe she was in her right mind when she killed her boys therefore as you say she wouldn't have behaved rationally at all so it's pointless looking for rational behaviour.
And yet rationality would be required to decide to use the rifle and to fathom out how to load it, connect the magazine and chamber a shot.
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WE NEVER SAID SHE SLEPT THERE.
I think she did. It certainly makes more sense than being 'carried' there and not waking up.
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I haven't changed that.
There are lots of ways Sheila could have ended up in the main bedroom.
Bamber was perfectly capable of carrying an asleep Sheila a few feet.
Ok -so you are saying she slept through her sons and mother being brutally shot and a huge fight ( allegedly) in the kitchen - people running up and down stairs sugar bowls being knocked over and lights being smashed ? Do you know what a rifle sounds like even with the silencer on?
then she did not wake up when carried to the bedroom over her dead mother?
Just want to get your thoughts clear.
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to be honest I just like a good debate and like to see both sides - but there are plenty of guilters at the moment so I like to provide a balance .
I still though have not seen one probable (99% ;D) scenario how Sheila would allow herself to be shot in that way/ in that position with no resistance or defensive action- logically or purely animal instinct. And if she had fought back or even put her hands up in human reaction his whole plan would have fallen to pieces and been destroyed - what was he back up plan then?
I absolutely agree with you Jan, if he did it I believe he knew he would have to take her completely by surprise and shoot her in the neck before getting her in the right position to shoot her again feigning suicide, it was a massive gamble so no idea what Plan B could have been. :'(
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to be honest I just like a good debate and like to see both sides - but there are plenty of guilters at the moment so I like to provide a balance .
I still though have not seen one probable (99% ;D) scenario how Sheila would allow herself to be shot in that way/ in that position with no resistance or defensive action- logically or purely animal instinct. And if she had fought back or even put her hands up in human reaction his whole plan would have fallen to pieces and been destroyed - what was he back up plan then?
Jan I agree with you on this point and I have wondered why Sheila did not put up any resistance unless it was a joint suicide and she was double crossed :'(
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Sheila had a temper and it definitely would have shown even towards Jeremy if he'd dared hurt one of her boys,so to even think it was he who'd killed them, Sheila would have fought him leaving her mark/s with her long nails. He'd have been black and blue as I'd wager a bet that she was stronger than he was in one of her " do's ".
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Didn't I see written not so long ago that the family were often squabbling/rowing ?
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I think she did. It certainly makes more sense than being 'carried' there and not waking up.
Of course she would have woken up, no way could he have carried her to the main bedroom put her down and shot her while still asleep, makes no sense at all, neither do I believe she would have walked there/been led there without any attempt to get away from him. She either killed herself or JB shot her once in the neck, catching her unawares and then positioned her on the floor and shot her again leaving the rifle on her and setting the scene (badly) as a suicide.
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Sheila had a temper and it definitely would have shown even towards Jeremy if he'd dared hurt one of her boys,so to even think it was he who'd killed them, Sheila would have fought him leaving her mark/s with her long nails. He'd have been black and blue as I'd wager a bet that she was stronger than he was in one of her " do's ".
Nothing of Sheila's behaviour in that last fortnight suggests she had an ounce of resistance in her.
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I think she did. It certainly makes more sense than being 'carried' there and not waking up.
yes adam should accept this scenario that she slept on her parents bed - it makes his theory easier.He can pm me if he decides to change his mind.
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Didn't I see written not so long ago that the family were often squabbling/rowing ?
MOST families have disagreements. The Bambers were probably no different. Sheila, as she didn't live there would have been unlikely to have been involved.
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Jan I agree with you on this point and I have wondered why Sheila did not put up any resistance unless it was a joint suicide and she was double crossed :'(
But why would Sheila agree to a suicide pact with JB? Why would she agree to her boys being killed unless she was ill enough to kill them herself? I don't believe she would have killed them unless psychotic and therefore would have done it alone, she wouldn't have needed Jeremy and would have killed him as well if he was there.... wouldn't she?
I keep coming back to the belief she slept with June that night, hence the reason for the bear and her dying in that room and where was June going when she walked over to where Sheila was found? If Sheila was lying on top of June's dried blood it means Sheila either died much later or was moved over the blood spots after she died.
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yes adam should accept this scenario that she slept on her parents bed - it makes his theory easier.He can pm me if he decides to change his mind.
Yes Jan, it may help rehabilitate him if he had someone to communicate with.
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yes adam should accept this scenario that she slept on her parents bed - it makes his theory easier.He can pm me if he decides to change his mind.
;D ;D
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;D ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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But why would Sheila agree to a suicide pact with JB? Why would she agree to her boys being killed unless she was ill enough to kill them herself? I don't believe she would have killed them unless psychotic and therefore would have done it alone, she wouldn't have needed Jeremy and would have killed him as well if he was there.... wouldn't she?
I keep coming back to the belief she slept with June that night, hence the reason for the bear and her dying in that room and where was June going when she walked over to where Sheila was found? If Sheila was lying on top of June's dried blood it means Sheila either died much later or was moved over the blood spots after she died.
I think both women died pretty much at the same time.
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Nothing of Sheila's behaviour in that last fortnight suggests she had an ounce of resistance in her.
to be fair there were very varying reports about her . Colin said she was contributing to the arrangements of the party. He did not describe problems in that respect immediately before the murders.
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I think both women died pretty much at the same time.
But you've given no indication of how. A shoot out across the bed doesn't seem likely.
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I think both women died pretty much at the same time.
I know you have said that Lookout but Sheila only had two shots, one to her neck at very close range and one under her chin which could only have been done by herself or someone lying down very close to her and aiming carefully, whereas poor June had dreadful injuries before being shot in the head at close range..... doesn't really make sense to me, I'm afraid.
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But why would Sheila agree to a suicide pact with JB? Why would she agree to her boys being killed unless she was ill enough to kill them herself? I don't believe she would have killed them unless psychotic and therefore would have done it alone, she wouldn't have needed Jeremy and would have killed him as well if he was there.... wouldn't she?
I keep coming back to the belief she slept with June that night, hence the reason for the bear and her dying in that room and where was June going when she walked over to where Sheila was found? If Sheila was lying on top of June's dried blood it means Sheila either died much later or was moved over the blood spots after she died.
Maggie I cannot answer your questions sorry. It is so difficult to piece together why was the covers not pulled back on Ralphs bed if Sheila did sleep with June and Jeremy could have placed the teddy bear on the bed after the murders does Cal mention this in her book (not read it yet) maybe the boys gave the teddy to Mummy to help her sleep I have not got a clue and get more confused daily.
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And yet rationality would be required to decide to use the rifle and to fathom out how to load it, connect the magazine and chamber a shot.
do you remember the statement where Jeremy was supposed to be showing her how to load the gun ? was it true? Or was it a lie . was he doing it to cover himself - or did she ask him to show her ?
whether she had used guns or not is one of those things that is not clear - and some "experts" say the gun was not that difficult to use.
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yes adam should accept this scenario that she slept on her parents bed - it makes his theory easier.He can pm me if he decides to change his mind.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Yes, that should make the transition a lot easier! ;)
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do you remember the statement where Jeremy was supposed to be showing her how to load the gun ? was it true? Or was it a lie . was he doing it to cover himself - or did she ask him to show her ?
whether she had used guns or not is one of those things that is not clear - and some "experts" say the gun was not that difficult to use.
Not difficult to use perhaps, BUT in the throws of psychosis - I think it would be the last thing she would choose.
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Maggie I cannot answer your questions sorry. It is so difficult to piece together why was the covers not pulled back on Ralphs bed if Sheila did sleep with June and Jeremy could have placed the teddy bear on the bed after the murders does Cal mention this in her book (not read it yet) maybe the boys gave the teddy to Mummy to help her sleep I have not got a clue and get more confused daily.
Someone did suggest that the covers on the far bed in Sheila's room may have been pulled up by Jeremy after the shootings which would imply that Sheila had not gone to bed that night but had been wandering about in a murderous mood?
As for the teddy, I believe JB was telling the truth and it was Nevill's teddy bear. He would probably not have had a teddy when he was young because they weren't really around when he was young, they were called teddy after Theodore Roosevelt so he may have had that one as a present for a joke at some time :-\ however, don't believe he slept with it.
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If Jeremy had been the murderer he would have to have had a back up plan . There is no way he could be 100% sure Sheila would not fight back and lie in exactly where required and therefore the phone call would not have been part of the plan. So he would have been clever enough to have a plan b . But apparently not clever enough to blab about his crime.
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Not difficult to use perhaps, BUT in the throws of psychosis - I think it would be the last thing she would choose.
perhaps Jeremy should have thought of that when chosing a weapon for her.
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Yes, that should make the transition a lot easier! ;)
I have a feeling I wont get the pm :'( :'( :'( :'( and the transition will be extremely slow.
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I have a feeling I wont get the pm :'( :'( :'( :'( and the transition will be extremely slow.
Well, that's a given! ;)
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If Jeremy had been the murderer he would have to have had a back up plan . There is no way he could be 100% sure Sheila would not fight back and lie in exactly where required and therefore the phone call would not have been part of the plan. So he would have been clever enough to have a plan b . But apparently not clever enough to blab about his crime.
There are so many anomalies Jan, I cannot understand how he could believe he could plan anything really because he could never know how everyone would behave in any situation and it was a hell of a thing to control 3 adults, the risks were enormous and after a year's planning you would expect at least a Plan B..... this is where I veer again, whichever angle you look at this crime from there are questions.
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Someone did suggest that the covers on the far bed in Sheila's room may have been pulled up by Jeremy after the shootings which would imply that Sheila had not gone to bed that night but had been wandering about in a murderous mood?
As for the teddy, I believe JB was telling the truth and it was Nevill's teddy bear. He would probably not have had a teddy when he was young because they weren't really around when he was young, they were called teddy after Theodore Roosevelt so he may have had that one as a present for a joke at some time :-\ however, don't believe he slept with it.
Maggie
had all this happened Jeremy would have not expected to find Sheila in June's bed so he would have had to do some quick thinking staging Sheila making beds staging Ralph downstairs cleaning himself up staging Ralph downstairs back to the cottage on foot and appearing calm for his phone call to EP he must be one very cool customer to do this after just murdering his whole family just not ringing true IMO.
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to be fair there were very varying reports about her . Colin said she was contributing to the arrangements of the party. He did not describe problems in that respect immediately before the murders.
During the afternoon she was allegedly not with it, as in taking no notice, ignoring one of the twins when he climbed on her lap. He wasn't with her on the days prior to that but one friend described her as looking unclean and unkempt, hair unwashed, no make up................although she had made an effort the following day. She was silent all the way to WHF. It must have made for a terrible atmosphere in the car.
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Maggie
had all this happened Jeremy would have not expected to find Sheila in June's bed so he would have had to do some quick thinking staging Sheila making beds staging Ralph downstairs cleaning himself up staging Ralph downstairs back to the cottage on foot and appearing calm for his phone call to EP he must be one very cool customer to do this after just murdering his whole family just not ringing true IMO.
I do agree but then I have always found it hard to believe that he could have crawled through the window, killed all five people even if Nevill was in his expected place he still got away and ran downstairs.... the risk of taking on Nevill was so massive..... fighting over the rifle with Nevill, bashing poor him with the rifle without a mark on him and dashing back over the fields etc. and the rest is history.... it's very difficult to take on board and that is the problem for me. :'( :'( :'( :'(
There is always the feeling if he was involved he wasn't alone but I cannot believe it was Sheila because unless psychotic she just wouldn't have done it. She wouldn't have calmly planned it because it would have been crazy for her to believe she could overcome Nevill and she would never have killed her children in her right mind...... :-\ :'(
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I have a feeling I wont get the pm :'( :'( :'( :'( and the transition will be extremely slow.
If he's had the problem for some time -and it's not difficult to imagine he has- he'll probably need a little encouragement, Jan
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I do agree but then I have always found it hard to believe that he could have crawled through the window, killed all five people even if Nevill was in his expected place he still got away and ran downstairs.... the risk of taking on Nevill was so massive..... fighting over the rifle with Nevill, bashing poor him with the rifle without a mark on him and dashing back over the fields etc. and the rest is history.... it's very difficult to take on board and that is the problem for me. :'( :'( :'( :'(
There is always the feeling if he was involved he wasn't alone but I cannot believe it was Sheila because unless psychotic she just wouldn't have done it. She wouldn't have calmly planned it because it would have been crazy for her to believe she could overcome Nevill and she would never have killed her children in her right mind...... :-\ :'(
Remember Nevill was a shadow of his former self those last few months of his life,as reported by farm secretary Barbara Wilson,which would have made it easier for Jeremy to confront him.
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Remember Nevill was a shadow of his former self those last few months of his life,as reported by farm secretary Barbara Wilson,which would have made it easier for Jeremy to confront him.
He had a back problem.
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Remember Nevill was a shadow of his former self those last few months of his life,as reported by farm secretary Barbara Wilson,which would have made it easier for Jeremy to confront him.
I know Neville was already wounded and possibly on his knees by the time he was attacked with the / rifle but it was still massively demanding to do all that run home and turn up cool as a cucumber outside the house with the police.....
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Neville's call to Jeremy. A 1% likelihood ? Its safe to say a call was made from WHF to Jeremy's house. As Jeremy assumes the telecom provider can prove such a call happened. So its either Neville calling Jeremy from WHF or Jeremy calling his house from WHF till the answer machine picks up.
(http://s9.postimg.org/4miajfq33/bamber_interview.jpg)
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I know Neville was already wounded and possibly on his knees by the time he was attacked with the / rifle but it was still massively demanding to do all that run home and turn up cool as a cucumber outside the house with the police.....
Maggie, I suspect you're imagining how YOU'D have felt but it may help you to try to imagine Jeremy, having successfully carried out something he'd planned to do for a long time and feeling pleased with himself. We don't know exactly WHEN the murders occurred but we can assume that he'd have given himself time to get home in comfort, pour a drink, shower, change his clothes before calling the police.
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I do agree but then I have always found it hard to believe that he could have crawled through the window, killed all five people even if Nevill was in his expected place he still got away and ran downstairs.... the risk of taking on Nevill was so massive..... fighting over the rifle with Nevill, bashing poor him with the rifle without a mark on him and dashing back over the fields etc. and the rest is history.... it's very difficult to take on board and that is the problem for me. :'( :'( :'( :'(
There is always the feeling if he was involved he wasn't alone but I cannot believe it was Sheila because unless psychotic she just wouldn't have done it. She wouldn't have calmly planned it because it would have been crazy for her to believe she could overcome Nevill and she would never have killed her children in her right mind...... :-\ :'(
Siblings that kill their parents come in two varieties:
1) Siblings who have a joint hate for their parents and are aware of their joint hatred
2) One sibling has significant away over the other siblings and calls the shots and the others simply do what they are told. Most often this is true with an idolized older brother but there are other paradigms.
What you find is that the siblings are closer to one another than the parents. Sheila and Jeremy were not close, they do not fit any of the patterns at all. So as you have observed there is simply no realistic way to say Sheila was involved.
But Jeremy didn't need anyone's help anyway. He picked the middle of the night so that he would not have to confront all of the victims the same time in the same place. He didn't need anyone to sucker victims to their death, he went to them. He did't need an inside man to provide the layout of the house etc he had the requisite knowledge and access. The only aid he could have used was with respect to an an alibi and he used Julie for that to the extent he could. Calling her to tell her Nevill phoned was supposed to be proof Nevill called him. Julie chose not to frame the call in such manner because then police might think she understood he was using her to support his alibi but that is what it was for though he called to discuss his excitement as well. He could not contain his excitement and that could be what delayed him calling police he needed time to calm down and prepare to pretend to be scared and upset- that and he needed to work out exactly what he wanted to say to them.
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Neville's call to Jeremy. A 1% likelihood ? Its safe to say a call was made from WHF to Jeremy's house. As Jeremy assumes the telecom provider can prove such a call happened. So its either Neville calling Jeremy from WHF or Jeremy calling his house from WHF till the answer machine picks up.
(http://s9.postimg.org/4miajfq33/bamber_interview.jpg)
If I was asked to read that and give an opinion I'd HAVE to say that he'd been banking on the call being verified to back him up, and when he found out it wasn't possible to do, it rather knocked the wind from his sails.
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Neville's call to Jeremy. A 1% likelihood ? Its safe to say a call was made from WHF to Jeremy's house. As Jeremy assumes the telecom provider can prove such a call happened. So its either Neville calling Jeremy from WHF or Jeremy calling his house from WHF till the answer machine picks up.
You are ignoring that Jeremy could have simply lied to police pretending he thought they would be able to tell to make it look good.
We have no idea whether he was sincere or not when he claimed to them such belief.
IF he honestly believed it then it means he called his answering machine or left the phone dialing till he got home but only he knows if he did such. Since the digital phones had the ability to redial the last number but the dial phone didn't and the dial phone was the one left in the kitchen I tend to think he intentionally made sure the dial phone was off the hook so they would figure Nevill used that phone and that there would be no way to prove he didn't call Jeremy. He repeatedly told police they could not not prove the call didn't happen. He wasn't as worried about providing solid proof it did. He felt them no being able to prove via the phone technology that it didn't would be sufficient.
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Maggie, I suspect you're imagining how YOU'D have felt but it may help you to try to imagine Jeremy, having successfully carried out something he'd planned to do for a long time and feeling pleased with himself. We don't know exactly WHEN the murders occurred but we can assume that he'd have given himself time to get home in comfort, pour a drink, shower, change his clothes before calling the police.
I understand what you're saying, I cannot imagine how he would feel but I accept he would feel differently than myself because I would never have left the house in the first place :)
I guess if he wanted to do it or enjoyed it that puts a different spin on it, for that he would need to be psychopathic/disordered and he may be. We can guess but we don't know.
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You are ignoring that Jeremy could have simply lied to police pretending he thought they would be able to tell to make it look good.
We have no idea whether he was sincere or not when he claimed to them such belief.
IF he honestly believed it then it means he called his answering machine or left the phone dialing till he got home but only he knows if he did such. Since the digital phones had the ability to redial the last number but the dial phone didn't and the dial phone was the one left in the kitchen I tend to think he intentionally made sure the dial phone was off the hook so they would figure Nevill used that phone and that there would be no way to prove he didn't call Jeremy. He repeatedly told police they could not not prove the call didn't happen. He wasn't as worried about providing solid proof it did. He felt them no being able to prove via the phone technology that it didn't would be sufficient.
I agree with that, I think he knew it couldn't be traced. It's not like that kind of information was a closely guarded secret.
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If I was asked to read that and give an opinion I'd HAVE to say that he'd been banking on the call being verified to back him up, and when he found out it wasn't possible to do, it rather knocked the wind from his sails.
I agree that's the impression I get reading it.
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I understand what you're saying, I cannot imagine how he would feel but I accept he would feel differently than myself because I would never have left the house in the first place :)
I guess if he wanted to do it or enjoyed it that puts a different spin on it, for that he would need to be psychopathic/disordered and he may be. We can guess but we don't know.
I hate killing anything but no one likes flies in the house. I killed one a few months back with the flick of a tea towel and felt bad for about 5 minutes. I rationalised that they spread germs so it had to go. That's about the level of how a psychopath views his/her victims. They don't have to enjoy killing, they may even hate it, but if it's a means to an end - the victim has to go and they can always rationalise it.
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You are ignoring that Jeremy could have simply lied to police pretending he thought they would be able to tell to make it look good.
We have no idea whether he was sincere or not when he claimed to them such belief.
I did consider this but I doubt it.
IF he honestly believed it then it means he called his answering machine or left the phone dialing till he got home but only he knows if he did such.
Yes that's what I have already said. He thinks telecom keeps records so in his mind he has to call his own answer machine from WHF so his story of his dads phone call can be matched with what he assumes the telecom provider would have some record of.
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I did consider this but I doubt it.
Yes that's what I have already said. He thinks telecom keeps records so in his mind he has to call his own answer machine from WHF so his story of his dads phone call can be matched with what he assumes the telecom provider would have some record of.
If he didn't know and he made a call to his house from WHF then he would be against the clock getting home because if he thought they could trace the call, then he would assume they would know the time it was made.
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I hate killing anything but no one likes flies in the house. I killed one a few months back with the flick of a tea towel and felt bad for about 5 minutes. I rationalised that they spread germs so it had to go. That's about the level of how a psychopath views his/her victims. They don't have to enjoy killing, they may even hate it, but if it's a means to an end - the victim has to go and they can always rationalise it.
Mums crazy so better off dead
Sisters even more crazy so better off dead
Dad has to put up with crazy mum and sister so better off dead
Twins have my crazy sister to raise them so better off dead
I can run farm better by myself anyway.
Jeremy's rationalisation in a nut shell
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Mums crazy so better off dead
Sisters even more crazy so better off dead
Dad has to put up with crazy mum and sister so better off dead
Twins have my crazy sister to raise them so better off dead
I can run farm better by myself anyway.
Jeremy's rationalisation in a nut shell
Exactly - in his mind he was probably doing them a favour.
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Mums crazy so better off dead
Sisters even more crazy so better off dead
Dad has to put up with crazy mum and sister so better off dead
Twins have my crazy sister to raise them so better off dead
I can run farm better by myself anyway.
Jeremy's rationalisation in a nut shell
Do you really believe he wanted the farm? I'm more inclined to think he wanted what he could get for it. Farming didn't appear to be in his soul.
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I did consider this but I doubt it.
Yes that's what I have already said. He thinks telecom keeps records so in his mind he has to call his own answer machine from WHF so his story of his dads phone call can be matched with what he assumes the telecom provider would have some record of.
If using his answering machine he would have to have hauled ass home. Even if he phoned his house and left it ringing with the ringer on low to pick up when he arrived home he only would have a limited time to get home and the records would prove the calls came earlier than he asserted.
I find it much more likely that he simply said such to the police to try to snow them as opposed to actually believing the phone company recorded such. If he actually believed it then he would have phoned the police much faster than he did because the gap in time between when he allegedly received the call and finally called them would be too much to be credible. Calling his answering machine at 2:45 and not calling police until 3:26 would be pretty damning. Making it ring till he got home and picking up the phone around 3AM but not calling till 3:26 is still a problem though not quite as bad. The logistics of it is another problem. On some phone systems of that era after 8 minutes of ringing it would be cut off on others it could last up to 18 minutes before being cut off. We don't know which applied to that system.
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If he didn't know and he made a call to his house from WHF then he would be against the clock getting home because if he thought they could trace the call, then he would assume they would know the time it was made.
It would have forced him to haul ass home and call police as soon as he arrived home to keep the gap manageable.
Moreover it means he would have expected police to be able to tell he lied about calling police before Julie. If the phone company kept detailed records of the times of all the calls it would mean lying about calling Julie after police would be pointless.
He would have taken all this into account when making up what time Nevill supposedly called him. I think he knew that they would not be able to tell anything.
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If using his answering machine he would have to have hauled ass home. Even if he phoned his house and left it ringing with the ringer on low to pick up when he arrived home he only would have a limited time to get home and the records would prove the calls came earlier than he asserted.
I find it much more likely that he simply said such to the police to try to snow them as opposed to actually believing the phone company recorded such. If he actually believed it then he would have phoned the police much faster than he did because the gap in time between when he allegedly received the call and finally called them would be too much to be credible. Calling his answering machine at 2:45 and not calling police until 3:26 would be pretty damning. Making it ring till he got home and picking up the phone around 3AM but not calling till 3:26 is still a problem though not quite as bad. The logistics of it is another problem. On some phone systems of that era after 8 minutes of ringing it would be cut off on others it could last up to 18 minutes before being cut off. We don't know which applied to that system.
I agree, as I said before, if he thought the call would be registered, he would have to think that the time was too. I think he was just playing ignorant.
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It would have forced him to haul ass home and call police as soon as he arrived home to keep the gap manageable.
Moreover it means he would have expected police to be able to tell he lied about calling police before Julie. If the phone company kept detailed records of the times of all the calls it would mean lying about calling Julie after police would be pointless.
He would have taken all this into account when making up what time Nevill supposedly called him. I think he knew that they would not be able to tell anything.
Once everyone is dead and he has cleaned himself up, the last thing he does is call his own answerphone then get back to his within 10 minutes to call police its possible.
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i think they were trying to establish that when they timed the bike ride.
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Mums crazy so better off dead
Sisters even more crazy so better off dead
Dad has to put up with crazy mum and sister so better off dead
Twins have my crazy sister to raise them so better off dead
I can run farm better by myself anyway.
Jeremy's rationalisation in a nut shell
That is your take - you have no idea. It makes sense to you to stage a two shot murder as suicide?
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Once everyone is dead and he has cleaned himself up, the last thing he does is call his own answerphone then get back to his within 10 minutes to call police its possible.
But if he knew they could get the times of all the calls from police why would he call Julie first? His goal would be to call police as soon as he got home. If he thought they could tell he would have phoned police before her.
If he honestly believed police could and would look up the phone records then it means he anticipated they would be able to tell he phoned Julie first and means he would have admitted such to police instead of lying. Being caught in a lie is worse than admitting the truth.
The timelines he gave are what someone who assumed they would not be able to check times of calls would provide.
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But if he knew they could get the times of all the calls from police why would he call Julie first? His goal would be to call police as soon as he got home. If he thought they could tell he would have phoned police before her.
If he honestly believed police could and would look up the phone records then it means he anticipated they would be able to tell he phoned Julie first and means he would have admitted such to police instead of lying. Being caught in a lie is worse than admitting the truth.
The timelines he gave are what someone who assumed they would not be able to check times of calls would provide.
That's a good point.
Bamber spent a year planning the crime. It wouldn't be hard to find out if a call from WHF could be traced.
He was just playing dumb and innocent for the police. Trying to give the impression a call was made from WHF and phone records if they existed would show that.
Anyway, a call from WHF to Bamber could have been made by Bamber himself.
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Mums crazy so better off dead
Sisters even more crazy so better off dead
Dad has to put up with crazy mum and sister so better off dead
Twins have my crazy sister to raise them so better off dead
I can run farm better by myself anyway.
Jeremy's rationalisation in a nut shell
Julie has given Bamber's justification why each person had to die.
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I do agree but then I have always found it hard to believe that he could have crawled through the window, killed all five people even if Nevill was in his expected place he still got away and ran downstairs.... the risk of taking on Nevill was so massive..... fighting over the rifle with Nevill, bashing poor him with the rifle without a mark on him and dashing back over the fields etc. and the rest is history.... it's very difficult to take on board and that is the problem for me. :'( :'( :'( :'(
There is always the feeling if he was involved he wasn't alone but I cannot believe it was Sheila because unless psychotic she just wouldn't have done it. She wouldn't have calmly planned it because it would have been crazy for her to believe she could overcome Nevill and she would never have killed her children in her right mind...... :-\ :'(
That's what he did. Got through a window, got a loaded gun and started shooting people.
Choosing the perfect time for an execution.
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That's what he did. Got through a window, got a loaded gun and started shooting people.
Choosing the perfect time for an execution.
That is what he was found guilty of so in the eyes of the law that is what he did.
It is OK to question the establishment Adam, you aren't a 'conspiracy theorist' if you question and have doubts about the legal system and the police.
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That's a good point.
Bamber spent a year planning the crime. It wouldn't be hard to find out if a call from WHF could be traced.
He was just playing dumb and innocent for the police. Trying to give the impression a call was made from WHF and phone records if they existed would show that.
Anyway, a call from WHF to Bamber could have been made by Bamber himself.
He spent a year planning the crime, investigating whether a call would be registered from WHF to his house but didn't bother to lie down with his rifle and work out how it would fall if he shot himself under his chin.
I find that hard to believe ... of course it may be true as I don't know how his mind worked/works but neither does anyone else.
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That's a good point.
Bamber spent a year planning the crime. It wouldn't be hard to find out if a call from WHF could be traced.
He was just playing dumb and innocent for the police. Trying to give the impression a call was made from WHF and phone records if they existed would show that.
Anyway, a call from WHF to Bamber could have been made by Bamber himself.
But who said he spent a year planning the crime? Julie did not - she said he hired a hit man - so no planning there ? And after the trial she said he NEVER admitted being the murderer? Bit of a clever get out clause there don't you think?
discuss Adam.
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If Jeremy had been the murderer he would have to have had a back up plan . There is no way he could be 100% sure Sheila would not fight back and lie in exactly where required and therefore the phone call would not have been part of the plan. So he would have been clever enough to have a plan b . But apparently not clever enough to blab about his crime.
There was no back up plan.
Everyone had to die. He improvised when Neville got downstairs. Smashing Neville's head in.
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? improvised - so you are saying he had no back up plan if Sheila did not lie down in the exact position he wanted her too and did not even put her hands up instinctively to protect herself?
He never even thought for one minute that that was a possibility?
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Cycle to WHF:
Evidence - Bike recently made available. Easy journey. Unseen.
Get into WHF
Evidence - Bathroom window loose or open. Quiet entrance.
Pick up rifle:
Evidence ' Fully loaded rifle available as stated by Jeremy.
Enter main bedroom:
Evidence - Two adults in this room who must be killed first as potential to provide most resistance.
Shoot an in bed June and Neville:
Evidence - Nine of the 11 shots were from inches away by or in the bed.
Go to reload or chase Neville:
Evidence - Spare bullets found in kitchen.
(Unplanned) kitchen fight:
Evidence - Neville was brutally beaten there.
Shoot and kill a knocked out Neville:
Evidence - Four kitchen head shots into Neville.
Return upstairs:
Evidence - All other shots upstairs.
Either wake and shoot or shoot an already awake Sheila:
Evidence - Sheila found shot in the corner of main bedroom.
Shoot June once:
Evidence - June had moved a few feet. Third head shot required.
Reload, shoot the sleeping twins:
Evidence - Twins shot 8 times in bed. Amount of bullets used shows two reloads carried out on the night.
Stage the scene:
Evidence - Gun and bible by Sheila. Silencer put in a box.
Exit out of kitchen window:
Evidence - 20 sources say it can be banged shut from outside.
Cycle home:
Evidence - Bike found at Jeremy's cottage.
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Cycle to WHF:
Evidence - Bike recently made available. Easy journey. Unseen.
Get into WHF
Evidence - Bathroom window loose or open. Quiet entrance.
Pick up rifle:
Evidence ' Fully loaded rifle available as stated by Jeremy.
Enter main bedroom:
Evidence - Two adults in this room who must be killed first as potential to provide most resistance.
Shoot an in bed June and Neville:
Evidence - Nine of the 11 shots were from inches away by or in the bed.
Go to reload or chase Neville:
Evidence - Spare bullets found in kitchen.
Kitchen fight:
Evidence - Neville was brutally beaten there.
Shoot and kill a knocked out Neville:
Evidence - Four kitchen head shots into Neville.
Return upstairs:
Evidence - All other shots upstairs.
Either wake and shoot or shoot an already awake Sheila:
Evidence - Sheila found shot in the corner of main bedroom.
Shoot June once:
Evidence - June had moved a few feet. Third head shot required.
Reload, shoot the sleeping twins:
Evidence - Twins shot 8 times in bed. Amount of bullets used shows two reloads carried out on the night.
Stage the scene:
Evidence - Gun and bible by Sheila. Silencer put in a box.
Exit out of kitchen window:
Evidence - 20 sources say it can be banged shut from outside.
Cycle home:
Evidence - Bike found at Jeremy's cottage.
You are avoiding the questions . And by the way there was absolutely no forensic evidence linking the bike to the crime at all
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? improvised - so you are saying he had no back up plan if Sheila did not lie down in the exact position he wanted her too and did not even put her hands up instinctively to protect herself?
He never even thought for one minute that that was a possibility?
If Sheila resisted, he would use his vastly superior strenght to overpower her. Simple.
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Do you not comprehend relationships within a family ? You say Jeremy had not spoken to his mother for years - but he was a regular visitor to the farmhouse and a share holder in their businesses at age 24.
June helped out Sheila all the time - but yes they had their UPS and DOWNs - that is what happens in families some times . Colin describes happy family times and unhappy family times - I think that is quite normal . Colin is someone who knew the family and if there is a book you should read perhaps that is one that might give you some insight.
If Sheila was depressed while she was in the house then perhaps she did turn to her parents? Perhaps she found them controlling ? Perhaps she found her mother interfering and judgemental at times but there are happy family photos as well. Nothing is so black and white.
I have reported you to the moderators again. Accusing me of not 'comprehending relationships in a family'. Jan you must calm down. Bamber is guilty. Accept it.
Sheila sleeping with Neville and June that night is a new suggestion. Similar to Bamber having a daughter.
Whether she slept on her own or not is not of much interest to me. Although if she did, it explains how she got into the main bedroom.
It would be a surprise that Sheila stayed in the main bedroom if Bamber had shot June & Neville ten times, then gone downstairs. Thought she would go to her sons room.
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I have reported you to the moderators again. Accusing me of not 'comprehending relationships in a family'. Jan you must calm down. Bamber is guilty. Accept it.
Sheila sleeping with Neville and June that night is a new suggestion. Similar to Bamber having a daughter.
Whether she slept on her own or not is not of much interest to me. Although if she did, it explains how she got into the main bedroom.
It would be a surprise that Sheila stayed in the main bedroom if Bamber had shot June & Neville ten times, then gone downstairs. Thought she would go to her sons room.
You clearly have problems with literacy, this time leading to you making a fool of yourself for reporting Jan for accusing you of not comprehending relationships within a family. SHE DIDN'T, xxxxxx!!! She ASKED if you comprehended them which is entirely different.
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Maggie
had all this happened Jeremy would have not expected to find Sheila in June's bed so he would have had to do some quick thinking staging Sheila making beds staging Ralph downstairs cleaning himself up staging Ralph downstairs back to the cottage on foot and appearing calm for his phone call to EP he must be one very cool customer to do this after just murdering his whole family just not ringing true IMO.
There is no evidence Sheila was sleeping in Neville and June's bed.
If she was it was a surprise she suddenly killed the xxx xxxxxx xxx xxx been sharing a bed with.
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sorry I resorted to capitals ( shouting ) which I hate .
Other things going on in my life , a moment where my self control slipped.
Jan you must calm down.
Other things in you're life is no excuse.
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It seems that supporters are now saying Sheila would have resisted and are going on about Sheila's two shots.
Both of which have been discussed to death. Bamber actually did quite well, managing to kill Sheila with two shots. June needed eight.
Do supporters say how Sheila committed the crime. In a word 'no'.
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There was no forensic evidence linking Jeremy to the crime anyway.Jones prayed for a miracle in order to get a conviction,so the " silencer " was used--------------made-up or what ?
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If Sheila resisted, he would use his vastly superior strenght to overpower her. Simple.
so if that had happened how would explain the bruises and evidence of holding her down and how could he do that and fire the gun?
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There was no forensic evidence linking Jeremy to the crime anyway.Jones prayed for a miracle in order to get a conviction,so the " silencer " was used--------------made-up or what ?
;D
You know there is a mountain of forensic evidence.
The last time I posted it to you, you said 'it was the wrong kind of forensic' evidence. Whatever that means.
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so if that had happened how would explain the bruises and evidence of holding her down and how could he do that and fire the gun?
Firstly she may not have resisted. Thread already created.
If she did resist, I don't see why there should be bruises. It wouldn't take much effort for Bamber to overpower her. Or maybe it did take some effort. Resulting in Bamber's first shot not being fatal. The second shot certainly was.
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I have reported you to the moderators again. Accusing me of not 'comprehending relationships in a family'. Jan you must calm down. Bamber is guilty. Accept it.
Sheila sleeping with Neville and June that night is a new suggestion. Similar to Bamber having a daughter.
Whether she slept on her own or not is not of much interest to me. Although if she did, it explains how she got into the main bedroom.
It would be a surprise that Sheila stayed in the main bedroom if Bamber had shot June & Neville ten times, then gone downstairs. Thought she would go to her sons room.
report away.
I have not changed my opinion of your understanding of family life .
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That is your take - you have no idea. It makes sense to you to stage a two shot murder as suicide?
And yet that didn't arouse that much suspicion at the time. Jeremy had no choice but to go ahead with the plan. The phone call put him elsewhere and he thought he was clever enough to pull it off.
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And yet that didn't arouse that much suspicion at the time. Jeremy had no choice but to go ahead with the plan. The phone call put him elsewhere and he thought he was clever enough to pull it off.
I think the point is that a layman would not have known that two shot suicides do occur.
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But who said he spent a year planning the crime? Julie did not - she said he hired a hit man - so no planning there ? And after the trial she said he NEVER admitted being the murderer? Bit of a clever get out clause there don't you think?
discuss Adam.
Julie did say he had been talking about it for a year pre-murders. He told her it was a hit man post-murders.
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I will. I would be careful if I were you. The moderators can't keep defending you and Lookout.
Yes, maybe I have no understanding of family life. After all I did think it strange that a 27 year old woman would sleep in a bed with her mother and father. Then shoot them 15 times.
And WHO of us had the thought that she was sleeping in bed with her mother and father? I can't think of ANY of US who would have suggested such a thing.
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I will. I would be careful if I were you. The moderators can't keep xxxxxxxxx and xxxxxxx.
Yes, maybe I have no understanding of family life. After all I did think it strange that a 27 year old woman would xxxxx xx x xxx xxxx xxx xxxxxx xxx xxxxxx. Then xxxxx xxxx xxxxxxx xxxxx.
I think they (moderators) can defend who they like but with your posting style, it will NEVER be you. You do yourself no favours.
Who said Sheila was sleeping in the bed with her mother AND FATHER? ???
If you're a little confused Adam - there is a thread already created! ;)
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I think they (moderators) can defend who they like but with your posting style, it will NEVER be you. You do yourself no favours.
Who said Sheila was sleeping in the bed with her mother AND FATHER? ???
It's been discussed a lot the last few days.
Keep up.
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It's been discussed a lot the last few days.
Keep up.
No, Adam, you're a little confused - no one suggested that she slept in the bed with her mother AND FATHER. You need to keep up!!
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It's been discussed a lot the last few days.
Keep up.
I don't know about that, Adam but I do know that you've put forward the suggestion that Sheila was sleeping with her mother AND FATHER. NONE of us has.
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I don't know about that, Adam but I do know that you've put forward the suggestion that Sheila was sleeping with her mother AND FATHER. NONE of us has.
I wouldn't care BUT - thread has been created!!
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I wouldn't care BUT - thread has been created!!
Do you think someone should tell Adam? :-\
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that shows he does not read other peoples posts - we have mentioned for ages how weird it was that a huge teddy would be in the middle of the marital bed. It does not seem like Nevilles style ???
I have xxxx xxxx xxx xxx xxxxxxxxxx again. Saying I don't read other peoples posts.
Please provide the source where there was discussion on the teddy bear. Even if there was, I can't read every post.
And please provide the source where I said I don't like other posters creating threads. Second request.
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I have xxxx xxxx xxx xxx xxx xxxxxxxxxx again. Saying I don't read other peoples posts.
Please provide the source where there was discussion on the teddy bear. Even if there was, I can't read every post.
And please provide the source where I said I don't like other posters creating threads. Second request.
You've PROVED you don't!!! You've already ignored that I said that you'd made a fool of yourself for reporting Jan for making a particular claim when the truth was, she'd asked a question and you've previously accused me of CLAIMING things I've only suggested.
That you can't read every post is your own problem.
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I have xxxx xxxx xxx xxx xxx xxxxxxxxxx again. Saying I don't read other peoples posts.
Please provide the source where there was discussion on the teddy bear. Even if there was, I can't read every post.
And please provide the source where I said I don't like other posters creating threads. Second request.
No one cares Adam!! Move on and if you haven't read the threads/post stop trying to be an authority, you just make yourself look stupid! If you stopped trying to be an attention seeker and debated the case with some maturity (because you're no teenager) you might find you get along with people a lot better! Playing the 'naughty teen' is just getting old!!
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Of course she would have woken up, no way could he have carried her to the main bedroom put her down and shot her while still asleep, makes no sense at all, neither do I believe she would have walked there/been led there without any attempt to get away from him. She either killed herself or JB shot her once in the neck, catching her unawares and then positioned her on the floor and shot her again leaving the rifle on her and setting the scene (badly) as a suicide.
Well he had to pick up a light woman for about 10 seconds. Carrying her a few feet.
It is doubtful she would wake in ten seconds. If she started to wake, there is no way she would know what was happening, or going to happen. Before it was too late. Brothers shooting sisters is rare.
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Well he had to pick up a light woman for about 10 seconds. Carrying her a few feet.
It is doubtful she would wake in ten seconds. If she started to wake, there is no way she would know what was happening, or going to happen. Before it was too late. Brothers shooting sisters is rare.
What a ridiculous suggestion! She would have woken as soon as he tried to lift her! If someone tried to carry me off the bed they would get one hell of a shock! They would certainly need the first aid kit!
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No one cares Adam!! Move on and if you haven't read the threads/post stop trying to be an authority, you just make yourself look stupid! If you stopped trying to be an attention seeker and debated the case with some maturity (because you're no teenager) you might find you get along with people a lot better! Playing the 'naughty teen' is just getting old!!
Caroline, I think he bypassed maturity and moved straight on -BACK- to senility.
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ive reported you all to the moderaters im not sure but i have.
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ive reported you all to the moderaters im not sure but i have.
Awww. What is it you're not sure of, Nugs?
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ive reported you all to the moderaters im not sure why but i have.
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Oh, I SEE. You left out the "why." Hope you manage to work out why. Was it just for the hell of it?
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Well he had to pick up a light woman for about 10 seconds. Carrying her a few feet.
It is doubtful she would wake in ten seconds. If she started to wake, there is no way she would know what was happening, or going to happen. Before it was too late. Brothers shooting sisters is rare.
She was almost 5'8", think about it, he was barely 6' so she was only 4" shorter than him it woud have been really awkward for him to carry her.
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I have reported you to the moderators again. Saying I don't read other peoples posts.
Please provide the source where there was discussion on the teddy bear. Even if there was, I can't read every post.
And please provide the source where I said I don't like other posters creating threads. Second request.
No.
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No.
You will be turning into xxxxxxx soon telling me to 'find it myself'.
Which would be strange as I would be looking for something about myself which I didn't believe existed.
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She was almost 5'8", think about it, he was barely 6' so she was only 4" shorter than him it woud have been really awkward for him to carry her.
Awkward. No one said it would be easy.
Grown men can carry big weights. An average size gym goer can easily squat or bench press 120lbs. Several times.
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Awkward. No one said it would be easy.
Grown men can carry big weights. An average size gym goer can easily squat or bench press 120lbs. Several times.
No doubt. But was Jeremy a gym goer, average or otherwise?
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Awkward. No one said it would be easy.
Grown men can carry big weights. An average size gym goer can easily squat or bench press 120lbs. Several times.
So you think she would be half asleep sort of dozy and not really aware of what was going on ?
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Awkward. No one said it would be easy.
Grown men can carry big weights. An average size gym goer can easily squat or bench press 120lbs. Several times.
But weights don't have flailing legs and arms they are built to be lifted over the head, are you suggesting he carried Sheila that way? :o
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But weights don't have flailing legs and arms they are built to be lifted over the head, are you suggesting he carried Sheila that way? :o
Oh I can just see Sheila being calm-----------not ! ;D She'd have had a handful of his hair.He'd have had scratches down the side of his face---------a dead giveaway during a struggle with a bad-tempered woman.
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Awkward. No one said it would be easy.
Grown men can carry big weights. An average size gym goer can easily squat or bench press 120lbs. Several times.
so what is Jeremy - One minute he is a make up wearing, lothario, lazy ,quick food employee that hates farming - and the next minute when it suits you he is a strong fit young man who could lift weights ?
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:)
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Julie has given Bamber's justification why each person had to die.
Julie's word cannot be relied on, this has been explained time and time again
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personally I think that Julies first official statements fit the crime as the police saw it at that time - I think they did think the call had happened and they did think there was a hitman - her statements were written to cover everything they thought had happened and then later when they realised there was not a hitman they were a bit stuck. Also I think they were in communication with Julie earlier than we think - hence the private file . Its pretty obvious she was coached but was she doing it for immunity or because she thought he had done it? Not sure . But she Never actually say he was guilty did she?
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so what is Jeremy - One minute he is a make up wearing, lothario, lazy ,quick food employee that hates farming - and the next minute when it suits you he is a strong fit young man who could lift weights ?
Lazy - Yes, as Lookout confirmed.
Make up wearing - Yes. So what ?
Hates farming - Yes. Thread already created.
Strong - Yes. He was a 24 year old farmer of average size.
Young - Yes. He was 24.
Lift weights - Yes but I don't believe he went to the gym.
As a fit, strong, young man, I'm sure he could carry someone who weighed less than 100lbs, ten feet. As mentioned average size men in the gym can squat/bench press 120lbs at least ten times.
Bamber was also highly motivated to carry Sheila ten feet if he needed to, there was £436, 000 at stake.
Can't see what the problem is myself.
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personally I think that Julies first official statements fit the crime as the police saw it at that time - I think they did think the call had happened and they did think there was a hitman - her statements were written to cover everything they thought had happened and then later when they realised there was not a hitman they were a bit stuck. Also I think they were in communication with Julie earlier than we think - hence the private file . Its pretty obvious she was coached but was she doing it for immunity or because she thought he had done it? Not sure . But she Never actually say he was guilty did she?
By that time the police recognized Jeremy made up receiving a phone call from Nevill.
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Julie's word cannot be relied on, this has been explained time and time again
Unfortunately for Bamber Julie's WS is totally reliable and believable. Who said so ? Bamber's lawyers.
But Julie and SB carried out a minor cheque book fraud in 1984. So she must be lying. That was the defence's approach at court.
Thread already created called 'Julie's WS, a 'ring of truth ?'.
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Lazy - Yes, as Lookout confirmed.
Make up wearing - Yes. So what ?
Hates farming - Yes. Thread already created.
Strong - Yes. He was a 24 year old farmer of average size.
Young - Yes. He was 24.
Lift weights - Yes but I don't believe he went to the gym.
As a fit, strong, young man, I'm sure he could carry someone who weighed less than 100lbs, ten feet. As mentioned average size men in the gym can squat/bench press 120lbs at least ten times.
Bamber was also highly motivated to carry Sheila ten feet if he needed to, there was £436, 000 at stake.
Can't see what the problem is myself.
As I have already said it's not the weight of Sheila but her length, have you tried carrying someone almost as tall as yourself when they don't want to be carried? It's not easy at all and the chances are you could both end up on the floor. I don't go with that at all Adam, one of the questions in my mind is how Sheila ended up in the main bedroom with no sign of a struggle if JB shot her.
The answer may very well be that she was already there and that he shot her in the neck... 1st shot before she realised what was happening.
I don't believe he could have lead her, carried her or tricked her into the bedroom, in my mind she was there because she chose to be there, whatever the reason.
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As I have already said it's not the weight of Sheila but her length, have you tried carrying someone almost as tall as yourself when they don't want to be carried? It's not easy at all and the chances are you could both end up on the floor. I don't go with that at all Adam, one of the questions in my mind is how Sheila ended up in the main bedroom with no sign of a struggle if JB shot her.
\the answer to my mind may very well be that she was already there and that he shot her in the neck... 1st shot before she realised what was happening. I don't believe he could have lead her, carried her or tricked her into the bedroom, in my mind she was there because she chose to be there, whatever the reason.
Well if she was sleeping she would put up no resistance.
Anyway there are about eight ways Sheila could have ended up in the main bedroom. Being carried is one.
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Well if she was sleeping she would put up no resistance.
Anyway there are about eight ways Sheila could have ended up in the main bedroom. Being carried is one.
I haven't found one way which makes any sense to me other than it was her choice or Jeremy lead her at gunpoint but why bother, he couldn't have shot her anyway unless he got a shot at her in her throat on the way and then moved her into the bedroom before shooting her again on the floor? But there is no sign of Sheila's blood anywhere else :-\
She wouldn't have been sleeping for long if she was picked up, should think she would have woken the minute she was touched and it would be automatic for her to fight back imo.
A well placed knee would have sorted him out.
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As I have already said it's not the weight of Sheila but her length, have you tried carrying someone almost as tall as yourself when they don't want to be carried? It's not easy at all and the chances are you could both end up on the floor. I don't go with that at all Adam, one of the questions in my mind is how Sheila ended up in the main bedroom with no sign of a struggle if JB shot her.
The answer may very well be that she was already there and that he shot her in the neck... 1st shot before she realised what was happening.
I don't believe he could have lead her, carried her or tricked her into the bedroom, in my mind she was there because she chose to be there, whatever the reason.
You keep ignoring the most stupid parts of his claim. It would not be difficult for Jeremy to physically carry Sheila around. You are wasting your time trying to say that physically it would not be possible.
Adam claims Sheila didn't wake up and just let him do it. He would not be able to carry the rifle at the same time so would have to put her down while she is sleeping still and go fetch it and return. This is not in the least bit credible. If she didn't come out of the room herself because of hearing something then he marched her out at gunpoint he didn't carry her.
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Unfortunately for Bamber Julie's WS is totally reliable and believable.
That's incorrect as her statements are contradictory and impossible to be true.
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You keep ignoring the most stupid parts of his claim. It would not be difficult for Jeremy to physically carry Sheila around. You are wasting your time trying to say that physically it would not be possible.
Adam claims Sheila didn't wake up and just let him do it. He would not be able to carry the rifle at the same time so would have to put her down while she is sleeping still and go fetch it and return. This is not in the least bit credible. If she didn't come out of the room herself because of hearing something then he marched her out at gunpoint he didn't carry her.
Scipio I'm not ignoring anything it would be very difficult for Jeremy to carry Sheila and yes he wouldn't be able to carry the rifle as well, surely that goes without saying. I have already said Sheila would wake up right away it's ridiculous to claim she would stay asleep.
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You keep ignoring the most stupid parts of his claim. It would not be difficult for Jeremy to physically carry Sheila around. You are wasting your time trying to say that physically it would not be possible.
Adam claims Sheila didn't wake up and just let him do it. He would not be able to carry the rifle at the same time so would have to put her down while she is sleeping still and go fetch it and return. This is not in the least bit credible. If she didn't come out of the room herself because of hearing something then he marched her out at gunpoint he didn't carry her.
If Neville and June were dead perhaps Bamber put the rifle on their bed. Picked Sheila up and then took the gun again and shot her.
I'm not claiming anything. Just saying it's one of about 8 possibilities how Sheila ended up in the main bedroom.
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If Neville and June were dead perhaps Bamber put the rifle on their bed. Picked Sheila up and then took the gun again and shot her.
I'm not claiming anything. Just saying it's one of about 8 possibilities how Sheila ended up in the main bedroom.
Just for once, can you not accept that you're probably wrong. You say you're not claiming anything but Jeremy carrying Sheila is the theory you push hardest.
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Scipio I'm not ignoring anything it would be very difficult for Jeremy to carry Sheila and yes he wouldn't be able to carry the rifle as well, surely that goes without saying. I have already said Sheila would wake up right away it's ridiculous to claim she would stay asleep.
As I said it is ten seconds of carrying.
She may partially wake up. But would not have a clue of what was happening until it was way too late.
Or she may not wake at all.
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If Neville and June were dead perhaps Bamber put the rifle on their bed. Picked Sheila up and then took the gun again and shot her.
I'm not claiming anything. Just saying it's one of about 8 possibilities how Sheila ended up in the main bedroom.
No it's not.
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As I said it is ten seconds of carrying.
She may partially wake up. But would not have a clue of what was happening until it was way too late.
Or she may not wake at all.
I think I'm right in saying you are not a woman, therefore you have no idea how protective a woman would be to herself if lifted up and carried in the dark by a stranger, have you any imagination Adam? It is something which all women instinctively dread and would instinctively fight against.
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Just for once, can you not accept that you're probably wrong. You say you're not claiming anything but Jeremy carrying Sheila is the theory you push hardest.
How can I be wrong about something no one witnessed.
You said Sheila was in the main bedroom praying out loud while Bamber was killing people. People may disagree but can't say you are wrong.
Other people brought up Sheila being carried yesterday. Saying it is impossible.
However Bamber could physically carry Sheila ten feet. After putting the rifle on the bed first of course.
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How about Jeremy entering Sheila's bedroom and telling her their father has rung him to tell him there are intruders at the Farm and he has gone downstairs to investigate and he wants Sheila to wait in the master bedroom until Police arrive?
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No it's not.
What's not ?
There are loads of ways Sheila ended up in the main bedroom. People have suggested Sheila slept with Neville and June on the night. Which is another one.
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Unfortunately for Bamber Julie's WS is totally reliable and believable. Who said so ? Bamber's lawyers.
But Julie and SB carried out a minor cheque book fraud in 1984. So she must be lying. That was the defence's approach at court.
Thread already created called 'Julie's WS, a 'ring of truth ?'.
Adam you've just given me an idea for the title of a new thread: Jeremy's gift of jewellery to Julie: a ring of truth? A pity I'm dog tired and thus brain dead tonight.
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What's not ?
There are loads of ways Sheila ended up in the main bedroom. People have suggested Sheila slept with Neville and June on the night. Which is another one.
Dozens of ways, we won't know for sure. But carried is possible.
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What's not ?
There are loads of ways Sheila ended up in the main bedroom. People have suggested Sheila slept with Neville and June on the night. Which is another one.
Adam no one has suggested Sheila slept with both of them, don't be ridiculous you are just stirring. I for one believe it is highly possible Sheila slept in the main bedroom with June that night and that is how she came to be found there on that side of the bed.
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How can I be wrong about something no one witnessed.
You said Sheila was in the main bedroom praying out loud while Bamber was killing people. People may disagree but can't say you are wrong.
Other people brought up Sheila being carried yesterday. Saying it is impossible.
However Bamber could physically carry Sheila ten feet. After putting the rifle on the bed first of course.
Are you claiming to be right simply because there is no one to say otherwise?
I don't believe I've ever said Sheila WAS praying out loud. I said she MAY have read the bible out loud through fear which is rather different.
It seems no one else thinks Sheila was carried.
Are you suggesting Jeremy left the rifle in one room whilst he carried Sheila into another room and then went back for it?
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How about Jeremy entering Sheila's bedroom and telling her their father has rung him to tell him there are intruders at the Farm and he has gone downstairs to investigate and he wants Sheila to wait in the master bedroom until Police arrive?
That makes more sense Steve.
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If Neville and June were dead perhaps Bamber put the rifle on their bed. Picked Sheila up and then took the gun again and shot her.
I'm not claiming anything. Just saying it's one of about 8 possibilities how Sheila ended up in the main bedroom.
Him putting the gun down to carry her around so that she could possibly grab it is not in the least bit likely...
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What's not ?
There are loads of ways Sheila ended up in the main bedroom. People have suggested Sheila slept with Neville and June on the night. Which is another one.
Well Shelias bed was made like no one had slept in it that night. so its possible
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Adam you've just given me an idea for the title of a new thread: Jeremy's gift of jewellery to Julie: a ring of truth? A pity I'm dog tired and thus brain dead tonight.
;D ;D
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What's not ?
There are loads of ways Sheila ended up in the main bedroom. People have suggested Sheila slept with Neville and June on the night. Which is another one.
YOU are the only one who has made that suggestion.
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Adam no one has suggested Sheila slept with both of them, don't be ridiculous you are just stirring. I for one believe it is highly possible Sheila slept in the main bedroom with June that night and that is how she came to be found there on that side of the bed.
It would explain why Jeremy felt he needed the silencer as he was determined to get the twins out of the way first.
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Well Shelias bed was made like no one had slept in it that night. so its possible
But where was Nevill?
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Adam you've just given me an idea for the title of a new thread: Jeremy's gift of jewellery to Julie: a ring of truth? A pity I'm dog tired and thus brain dead tonight.
I'm sorry to hear that, Steve, but don't worry, you'll never be as xxxxx xxxx as xxxx ;D
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How about Jeremy entering Sheila's bedroom and telling her their father has rung him to tell him there are intruders at the Farm and he has gone downstairs to investigate and he wants Sheila to wait in the master bedroom until Police arrive?
Since June's body was in the doorway and was visible from Sheila's doorway that would not accomplish much unless he claimed the intruders shot her. People keep making this more complex than need be- either he marched her in at gunpoint or she ran to the other side of the room in an unsuccessful attempt to get away from him.
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But where was Nevill?
in the bed also :-X
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Since June's body was in the doorway and was visible from Sheila's doorway that would not accomplish much unless he claimed the intruders shot her. People keep making this more complex than need be- either he marched her in at gunpoint or she ran to the other side of the room in an unsuccessful attempt to get away from him.
Am I right in thinking there was a connecting door from the master bedroom through to where the twins were sleeping and this is where Sheila may have been heading before she was shot?
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I'm sorry to hear that, Steve, but don't worry, you'll never be as brain dead as Adam ;D
I've just realized it's an hour later as well.
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But where was Nevill?
Nevill might have slept on the settee in the lounge during harvest time.
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I've just realized it's an hour later as well.
Oh, I do hope you were able to take advantage of the extra hour.
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I'm sorry to hear that, Steve, but don't worry, you'll never be as brain dead as Adam ;D
Who was the one who thought Bamber was innocent for 29 years ?
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Am I right in thinking there was a connecting door from the master bedroom through to where the twins were sleeping and this is where Sheila may have been heading before she was shot?
If she were in the hall the easiest way to their room was to walk down a couple of stairs through the hall to their door.
If he were blocking the hall maybe she was trying to run to the other side to try to escape through that door.
He could have placed her there to make it look like she had just come from killing the boys. We don't know what he had intended since he hasn't told anyone not even Julie.
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If she were in the hall the easiest way to their room was to walk down a couple of stairs through the hall to their door.
If he were blocking the hall maybe she was trying to run to the other side to try to escape through that door.
He could have placed her there to make it look like she had just come from killing the boys. We don't know what he had intended since he hasn't told anyone not even Julie.
I think we call it the landing where you say hall. So Sheila is led into the bedroom and is possibly shot immediately upon entry before catching sight of June?
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Oh, I do hope you were able to take advantage of the extra hour.
I'll probably fall asleep on Killer Doctors on Death Row courtesy of CBS Reality.
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I'll probably fall asleep on Killer Doctors on Death Row courtesy of CBS Reality.
Never heard of this show, are you implying that its boring?
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I'll probably fall asleep on Killer Doctors on Death Row courtesy of CBS Reality.
I generally fall asleep to the dulcet tones of NCIS :-[
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I'll probably fall asleep on Killer Doctors on Death Row courtesy of CBS Reality.
Sweet Dreams, Steve ;D ;D
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Never heard of this show, are you implying that its boring?
No just that it's on an hour later before we have become acclimatized to the hour going back.
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No just that it's on an hour later before we have become acclimatized to the hour going back.
;D ;D ;D
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No just that it's on an hour later before we have become acclimatized to the hour going back.
I also thought you were calling it boring...
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A fireman's lift is quite easy.
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A fireman's lift is quite easy.
Yes but with someone almost the same height as you it is quite ungainly particularly if that person is fighting you off.... I cannot see how that worked and anyway f it was dark he would have been crashing about as well...
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As I said it is ten seconds of carrying.
She may partially wake up. But would not have a clue of what was happening until it was way too late.
Or she may not wake at all.
Bit like Jeremy when he took the call then? Not really awake and taking it all in? ::)
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Bit like Jeremy when he took the call then? Not really awake and taking it all in? ::)
He seemed to have a very clear memory of the supposed phone call at that time.
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Bit like Jeremy when he took the call then? Not really awake and taking it all in? ::)
He didn't say he was half asleep - but he certainly remembered 'Sheila has gone crazy, she's got the gun'. It's just the times that he's not sure of and changes to suit ;)
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Yes but with someone almost the same height as you it is quite ungainly particularly if that person is fighting you off.... I cannot see how that worked and anyway f it was dark he would have been crashing about as well...
I can't visualise Jeremy man-handling anyone myself. Whether he actually did anything physical in his work on the farm I don't know,but he gave me the impression that he couldn't work in convulsions------sitting in the tractor hours on end isn't physical.
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He didn't say he was half asleep - but he certainly remembered 'Sheila has gone crazy, she's got the gun'. It's just the times that he's not sure of and changes to suit ;)
Don't forget there was an attempt to change even this, for a short while.
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Certainly not the way the older farmers used to work before such machinery. Jeremy would have opted for the easiest.
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Don't forget there was an attempt to change even this, for a short while.
Yes, he did - he said it might have been 'she'.
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Let's face it,because he was getting the blame anyway he'd really have to think deeply at what had been said by his father as getting it right was a matter of life and death. He certainly didn't realise that he was going to take the rap for something he hadn't done. When you know you're in the clear,it's hard to remember what you said or did because you never think that you need to repeat something again.
A liar/murderer will have their information transfixed in their brain that it's an exact repetition of what they said in the first place.
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Let's face it,because he was getting the blame anyway he'd really have to think deeply at what had been said by his father as getting it right was a matter of life and death. He certainly didn't realise that he was going to take the rap for something he hadn't done. When you know you're in the clear,it's hard to remember what you said or did because you never think that you need to repeat something again.
A liar/murderer will have their information transfixed in their brain that it's an exact repetition of what they said in the first place.
He wasn't getting the blame, not initially and because he things he said DIDN'T actually happen, he had to try and remember what he had said and he tripped himself up several times and still does it. It was an important call, it changed his life - you DON'T forget! Not if it REALLY happened.
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He wasn't getting the blame, not initially and because he things he said DIDN'T actually happen, he had to try and remember what he had said and he tripped himself up several times and still does it. It was an important call, it changed his life - you DON'T forget! Not if it REALLY happened.
I doubt he tripped himself up,as with most of us when we're trying to think of something that happened we have a genuine lapse of memory and say the wrong thing. Nobody is infallible.
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I doubt he tripped himself up,as with most of us when we're trying to think of something that happened we have a genuine lapse of memory and say the wrong thing. Nobody is infallible.
Call it what you like, I'll call it tripping himself up - he let it slip that he called Julie first - then tried to change it. I'd certainly call that tripping himself up.
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Call it what you like, I'll call it tripping himself up - he let it slip that he called Julie first - then tried to change it. I'd certainly call that tripping himself up.
I too would probably call it tripping if I was on your side of the fence. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Yes but with someone almost the same height as you it is quite ungainly particularly if that person is fighting you off.... I cannot see how that worked and anyway f it was dark he would have been crashing about as well...
Weight is most important not height. In training I had to carry men much larger than myself. He had Sheila at gunpoint and once she was in the hall at minimum she knew he already killed her mother. The notion he needed to carry her out of her room is silly. She could have left it on her own and encountered him in the hall. If she didn't do so and he didn't have a weapon then he might have needed to forcibly remove her from her room. But he had a gun so didn't need to use physical force he simply needed to threaten her with the gun. Very few people ordered to do something at gunpoint will defy the gunman and simply stand pat.
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Weight is most important not height. In training I had to carry men much larger than myself. He had Sheila at gunpoint and once she was in the hall at minimum she knew he already killed her mother. The notion he needed to carry her out of her room is silly. She could have left it on her own and encountered him in the hall. If she didn't do so and he didn't have a weapon then he might have needed to forcibly remove her from her room. But he had a gun so didn't need to use physical force he simply needed to threaten her with the gun. Very few people ordered to do something at gunpoint will defy the gunman and simply stand pat.
So just to clarify, can you confirm that you don't think he A) Put the rifle down on the bed, picked up a sleeping/dozy Sheila, carried her through to the master bedroom, put her down in a seated position on the floor and ordered her not to move, whilst he went back to get the rifle to kill her with, or B) Stuck the rifle between his legs, picked up a sleeping/dozy Sheila and waddled with her into the master bedroom where he put her down and shot her, or C) He woke/roused a sleeping/dozy Sheila, gave he the rifle to hold for him whilst he picked her up and carried her to the master bedroom where he put her down and shot her.
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Weight is most important not height. In training I had to carry men much larger than myself. He had Sheila at gunpoint and once she was in the hall at minimum she knew he already killed her mother. The notion he needed to carry her out of her room is silly. She could have left it on her own and encountered him in the hall. If she didn't do so and he didn't have a weapon then he might have needed to forcibly remove her from her room. But he had a gun so didn't need to use physical force he simply needed to threaten her with the gun. Very few people ordered to do something at gunpoint will defy the gunman and simply stand pat.
I don't think he threatened her in her own bedroom because as debilitated and disorientated as she was she would have made a rush to her sons' room. I believe he told her that there were intruders in the Farm and Nevill had gone downstairs to telephone Police. There was no alarm on her face as there might have been had she known the shocking truth.
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So just to clarify, can you confirm that you don't think he A) Put the rifle down on the bed, picked up a sleeping/dozy Sheila, carried her through to the master bedroom, put her down in a seated position on the floor and ordered her not to move, whilst he went back to get the rifle to kill her with, or B) Stuck the rifle between his legs, picked up a sleeping/dozy Sheila and waddled with her into the master bedroom where he put her down and shot her, or C) He woke/roused a sleeping/dozy Sheila, gave he the rifle to hold for him whilst he picked her up and carried her to the master bedroom where he put her down and shot her.
Anyone who thinks he carried her is a fool. If he did wake her up and she didn't leave her room to try to get away from him then he dragged her out at gunpoint.
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Anyone who thinks he carried her is a fool. If he did wake her up and she didn't leave her room to try to get away from him then he dragged her out at gunpoint.
For the record. I DON'T believe he carried her.
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Weight is most important not height. In training I had to carry men much larger than myself. He had Sheila at gunpoint and once she was in the hall at minimum she knew he already killed her mother. The notion he needed to carry her out of her room is silly. She could have left it on her own and encountered him in the hall. If she didn't do so and he didn't have a weapon then he might have needed to forcibly remove her from her room. But he had a gun so didn't need to use physical force he simply needed to threaten her with the gun. Very few people ordered to do something at gunpoint will defy the gunman and simply stand pat.
How did you carry them scipio, a fireman's lift is the only way I can think you could carry a person as tall or taller than yourself. You are being very dismissive about this but I have had plenty of experience in the past of moving and lifting people, there are special ways of moving people which protects your own back etc. .... but if someone struggles it becomes very difficult. I am curious as how you were trained to lift people taller than yourself and I would assume these were not people who were struggling with you and trying to get away rather injured people from your own side.
I do agree with you, I don't believe Sheila was carried.
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I don't think he threatened her in her own bedroom because as debilitated and disorientated as she was she would have made a rush to her sons' room. I believe he told her that there were intruders in the Farm and Nevill had gone downstairs to telephone Police. There was no alarm on her face as there might have been had she known the shocking truth.
He did not wear a mask then as claimed I think by a recent author.
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He did not wear a mask then as claimed I think by a recent author.
That's a good point,though the mask may have been worn to prevent scratches to his face.
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How did you carry them scipio, a fireman's lift is the only way I can think you could carry a person as tall or taller than yourself. You are being very dismissive about this but I have had plenty of experience in the past of moving and lifting people, there are special ways of moving people which protects your own back etc. .... but if someone struggles it becomes very difficult. I am curious as how you were trained to lift people taller than yourself and I would assume these were not people who were struggling with you and trying to get away rather injured people from your own side.
I do agree with you, I don't believe Sheila was carried.
I have carried women who were bigger than me and heavier than me in my arms but you can't run in that position and can't carry anything else. Sheila was lighter than the women in question but still the speed at which you can move with someone in front is rather limited otherwise you are going to drop her or fall.
The firemen's carry is the only one where you can haul ass while carrying something else- so naturally we did the firemen's carry. We had races you carry the one way and are carried the opposite and see which team of 2 could do it the fastest.
He didn't need to haul ass but would have to have put the gun down to try to pick up Sheila. Why would he do that? Why would he try carrying her instead of simply ordering her to move at gunpoint? It makes no sense whatsoever. It's not physically impossible it just makes no sense to do it.
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For the record. I DON'T believe he carried her.
There is only 1 person I have seen making this claim- Adam. If anyone else agrees with him I missed it.
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There is only 1 person I have seen making this claim- Adam. If anyone else agrees with him I missed it.
That would be as rare as hens teeth!!
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There is only 1 person I have seen making this claim- Adam. If anyone else agrees with him I missed it.
Anyone who thinks he carried her is a fool. If he did wake her up and she didn't leave her room to try to get away from him then he dragged her out at gunpoint.
SUCH a relief to know WE don't fall into the above category, Caroline . ;D
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SUCH a relief to know WE don't fall into the above category, Caroline . ;D
On this occasion ;) ;D ;D ;D
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oh be assured - Skippy regards us all as fools - every one of us .
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oh be assured - Skippy regards us all as fools - every one of us .
Well, that would only matter if you cared. To be honest, I think he seems a lot less prickly lately.
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So just to clarify, can you confirm that you don't think he A) Put the rifle down on the bed, picked up a sleeping/dozy Sheila, carried her through to the master bedroom, put her down in a seated position on the floor and ordered her not to move, whilst he went back to get the rifle to kill her with, or B) Stuck the rifle between his legs, picked up a sleeping/dozy Sheila and waddled with her into the master bedroom where he put her down and shot her, or C) He woke/roused a sleeping/dozy Sheila, gave he the rifle to hold for him whilst he picked her up and carried her to the master bedroom where he put her down and shot her.
Everyone is assuming Sheila woke up. There is no reason why she would wake. Thread already created. The twins didn't wake.
If she didn't wake, she was either lead or carried away from her bed. She had to be as she was the one being framed.
Going back for the rifle ? It would be next to him and Sheila on Neville's bed.
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A fireman's lift is quite easy.
It is.
Or if Sheila was laying on her back he just needed to put one arm under her knee and the other arm under her back. And carry her ten feet.
Why would she wake and be kicking and screaming ?
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Adam I have removed your post to Jane concerning the editing of a previous post because it was offensive and unnecessary.
After editing I did ask you to leave it at that and not drag it up in the future but it seems you couldn't resist.
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It is.
Or if Sheila was laying on her back he just needed to put one arm under her knee and the other arm under her back. And carry her ten feet.
Why would she wake and be kicking and screaming ?
Bcause that's what people do when they are picked up when sleeping.
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Adam I have removed your post to Jane concerning the editing of a previous post because it was offensive and unnecessary.
After editing I did ask you to leave it at that and not drag it up in the future but it seems you couldn't resist.
Thank-you, Maggie. Offensive and unnecessary is the perfect way of describing him...................but I won't drop names ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Thank-you, Maggie. Offensive and unnecessary is the perfect way of describing him...................but I won't drop names ;D ;D ;D ;D
I just thought it was appalling behaviour. Calling another poster 'brain dead'.
I don't call current or former supporters names when they fight against all the evidence.
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Can you not speak to me on the main forum. Unless it is about the case.
You edit other peoples posts. Upon request. But never say anything to them on the main forum.
However whenever you edit or remove my post, you always announce it on here.
I just thought it was appalling behaviour from an elderly poster and former moderator. Calling another poster 'brain dead'.
I shall speak to you any way I choose just as you speak to others in the same way. Why was it necessary to drag that up, it was all over and done with a few days ago and I asked you not to mention it on the forum but you just can't help yourself. You were the one who brought it up. It was goading Adam and you know it.
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Can you not speak to me on the main forum. Unless it is about the case.
You edit other peoples posts. Upon request. But never say anything to them on the main forum.
However whenever you edit or remove my post, you always announce it on here.
I just thought it was appalling behaviour from an elderly poster and former moderator. Calling another poster 'brain dead'.
Perhaps you could enter into a contract in which you agree not to talk about the things your posts have been removed for simply so you can take the opportunity to mention them again. I think it's only courteous to tell someone why posts have been removed or edited. They may not be bright enough or too arrogant to work it out for themselves.
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I just thought it was appalling behaviour. Calling another poster 'brain dead'.
I don't call current or former supporters names when they fight against all the evidence.
Bamber has nicknames for some of his supporters (confirmed by a recent book) Maggie edited out me using one of the nicknames the other day. ;D
Sometimes it's best just to accept it and move on, or if there is a major issue speak with NGB about it. If April called you braindead then you should be thankful, people have been called worse.
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Can you not speak to me on the main forum. Unless it is about the case.
You edit other peoples posts. Upon request. But never say anything to them on the main forum.
However whenever you edit or remove my post, you always announce it on here.
I just thought it was appalling behaviour from an elderly poster and former moderator. Calling another poster 'brain dead'.
All you ever do is goad other people, personally, you don't bother me but I can see why you annoy other people. I'm not sure what impression you are trying to portray but I don't think you realise how badly you come across. It might even be entertaining (at least) if you were even remotely amusing or informative.
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I shall speak to you any way I choose just as you speak to others in the same way. Why was it necessary to drag that up, it was all over and done with a few days ago and I asked you not to mention it on the forum but you just can't help yourself. You were the one who brought it up. It was goading Adam and you know it.
It's just that the dear ladies on here call other posters 'prats', 'arseholes', 'brain dead', 'posting BS', 'liars'.
If you edit the post after the thread has moved onto the next page, without saying anything to the poster on here, they will keep doing it.
If it is worthy of editing, it is worthy of mentioning. Obviously if you are only going to announce it on here when it is me, (although I never call people names) as you just suggested you will, that is blatant discrimination.
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It's just that the dear ladies on here call other posters 'prats', 'arseholes', 'brain dead', 'posting BS', 'liars'.
If you edit the post after the thread has moved onto the next page, without saying anything to the poster on here, they will keep doing it.
If it is worthy of editing, it is worthy of mentioning. Obviously if you are only going to announce it on here when it is me, (although I never call people names) as you just suggested you will, that is blatant discrimination.
Perhaps you don't call people names but you seem to take pleasure in goading people - you drive them to call you names then whine about it. Why can't you just exchange case ideas without having to goad?
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It's just that the dear ladies on here call other posters 'prats', 'arseholes', 'brain dead', 'posting BS', 'liars'.
If you edit the post after the thread has moved onto the next page, without saying anything to the poster on here, they will keep doing it.
If it is worthy of editing, it is worthy of mentioning. Obviously if you are only going to announce it on here when it is me, (although I never call people names) as you just suggested you will, that is blatant discrimination.
"If you edit the post after the thread has moved to the next page, without saying anything to the poster on here, they will keep doing it" O - M - G!!!!!!!!! MAGGIE, I THINK HE'S THREATENING YOU.
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Perhaps you don't call people names but you seem to take pleasure in goading people - you drive them to call you names then whine about it. Why can't you just exchange case ideas without having to goad?
Howz about because he likes to think he's top dog. He thinks he has more intelligent things to say than all the rest of us put together and thinks he can prove it by pushing quantity over quality.
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Howz about because he likes to think he's top dog. He thinks he has more intelligent things to say than all the rest of us put together and thinks he can prove it by pushing quantity over quality.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Nah! Surely not!!
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And he has the blooming cheek to call ME an attention-seeker. Cor.
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It's just that the dear ladies on here call other posters 'prats', 'arseholes', 'brain dead', 'posting BS', 'liars'.
If you edit the post after the thread has moved onto the next page, without saying anything to the poster on here, they will keep doing it.
If it is worthy of editing, it is worthy of mentioning. Obviously if you are only going to announce it on here when it is me, (although I never call people names) as you just suggested you will, that is blatant discrimination.
How amusing - dear ladies . :) :) :)
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Hilarious. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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"If you edit the post after ;D the thread has moved to the next page, without saying anything to the poster on here, they will keep doing it" O - M - G!!!!!!!!! MAGGIE, I THINK HE'S THREATENING YOU.
Hi haven't been able to get on the forum since my last post so have just seen this. I shall read the posts
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Everyone is assuming Sheila woke up. There is no reason why she would wake. Thread already created. The twins didn't wake.
If she didn't wake, she was either lead or carried away from her bed. She had to be as she was the one being framed.
Going back for the rifle ? It would be next to him and Sheila on Neville's bed.
If she was asleep when he entered her room then he woke her up and moved her at gunpoint. The notion he planned to carry her away without her waking up until after he placed her where he wanted her to be and had a chance to pick the gun up again is absurd.
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If she was asleep when he entered her room then he woke her up and moved her at gunpoint. The notion he planned to carry her away without her waking up until after he placed her where he wanted her to be and had a chance to pick the gun up again is absurd.
So he woke her up and lead her at gunpoint to the main bedroom. Across a dead June on the floor. Sheila not fighting back.
You said yourself it would be easy for Bamber to physically pick up Sheila. Lifting her ten feet is very easy.
Just put the rifle on Neville's bed and go to an asleep Sheila.
Put one arm under her knees, another arm under her back and spend ten seconds carrying her ten feet. There is no reason why she would wake, or if she did start to wake she would not have a clue what was happening. She would not have time to fight back.
Get the rifle, which is next to Bamber on the bed and shoot Sheila. Simple.
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http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,5526.msg277556.html#msg277556
It's very unlikely Sheila woke. Thread above.
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Bamber crept upstairs = No noise. No one woke.
It was 2am. People are usually in a deep sleep =:No noise heard.
Sheila may have been under sedation according to the 2002 appeal = No noise heard.
Her bedroom door may have been shut = No noise audible.
Bamber may have shut main bedroom door before shooting June and Neville = No audible noise for Sheila to hear.
A silencer was used = Minimal and reduced noise.
The twins did not wake = No noise from them.
June was shot & died in/by the bed = No noise from her.
Neville & Jeremy went downstairs = Minimal short term noise.
There was a brief but brutal fight = Noise in another part of the large WHF.
Time process from Bamber's WHF entrance to Sheila's killing ,5 - 10 minutes = Short term bits of noise. Mainly downstairs.
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It is almost certain Sheila did not wake. I don't go along with the theories that she slept with June & Neville. Or was in the main bedroom praying out loud.
So Sheila was either woken and lead at gunpoint without putting up resistance. Or was carried ten feet. Which was physically easy to do as Sheila was very light.
If I wanted to move someone ten feet and shoot them without resistance, I know what I would attempt.
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It is almost certain Sheila did not wake. I don't go along with the theories that she slept with June & Neville. Or was in the main bedroom praying out loud.
So Sheila was either woken and lead at gunpoint without putting up resistance. Or was carried ten feet. Which was physically easy to do as Sheila was very light.
If I wanted to move someone ten feet and shoot them without resistance, I know what I would attempt.
Adam Sheila probably heard the noise coming from the main bedroom and went to see what was happening or Ralph stood outside her bedroom door and told her to go and look after June then he went downstairs to try and use the phone you know what happened next.
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Adam Sheila probably heard the noise coming from the main bedroom and went to see what was happening or Ralph stood outside her bedroom door and told her to go and look after June then he went downstairs to try and use the phone you know what happened next.
Susan there is virtually no possibility of Sheila waking.
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Bamber crept upstairs = No noise. No one woke.
It was 2am. People are usually in a deep sleep =:No noise heard.
Sheila may have been under sedation according to the 2002 appeal = No noise heard.
Her bedroom door may have been shut = No noise audible.
Bamber may have shut main bedroom door before shooting June and Neville = No audible noise for Sheila to hear.
Both bedroom doors may have been shut. Together with a gap of several metres = Impossible for Sheila to hear first ten gun shots.
A silencer was used = Minimal and reduced noise.
The twins did not wake = No noise from them.
June was shot & died in/by the bed = No noise from her.
Neville & Jeremy went downstairs = Minimal short term noise.
There was a brief but brutal fight = Noise in another part of the large WHF.
Time process from Bamber's WHF entrance to Sheila's killing ,5 - 10 minutes = Short term bits of noise. Mainly downstairs.
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Susan there is virtually no possibility of Sheila waking.
Other than that she was a mother so would used to sleeping on alert -probably a very depressed mother. Sleep is illusive to the depressed- who wasn't in a place conducive to her relaxation or her peace of mind. Had there been an earlier discussion about her going to a rest home, this may have unsettled her, making sleep even more difficult. If she'd only JUST fallen asleep by the time Jeremy broke in, she'd probably have been alert in a second. It's a hugely sweeping statement -with nothing to back it up- to say there's virtually no possibility of her waking.
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Other than that she was a mother so would used to sleeping on alert -probably a very depressed mother. Sleep is illusive to the depressed- who wasn't in a place conducive to her relaxation or her peace of mind. Had there been an earlier discussion about her going to a rest home, this may have unsettled her, making sleep even more difficult. If she'd only JUST fallen asleep by the time Jeremy broke in, she'd probably have been alert in a second. It's a hugely sweeping statement -with nothing to back it up- to say there's virtually no possibility of her waking.
Nothing to back it up ?
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Bamber crept upstairs = No noise. No one woke.
It was 2am. People are usually in a deep sleep =:No noise heard.
Sheila may have been under sedation according to the 2002 appeal = No noise heard.
Her bedroom door may have been shut = No noise audible.
Bamber may have shut main bedroom door before shooting June and Neville = No audible noise for Sheila to hear.
Both bedroom doors may have been shut. Together with a gap of several metres = Impossible for Sheila to hear first ten gun shots.
A silencer was used = Minimal and reduced noise.
The twins did not wake = No noise from them.
June was shot & died in/by the bed = No noise from her.
Neville & Jeremy went downstairs = Minimal short term noise.
There was a brief but brutal fight = Noise in another part of the large WHF.
Time process from Bamber's WHF entrance to Sheila's killing ,5 - 10 minutes = Short term bits of noise. Mainly downstairs.
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Nothing to back it up ?
Only your opinion, which is worth no more -possibly LESS because it's so fixed- than anyone else's.
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Bamber crept upstairs = No noise. No one woke.
It was 2am. People are usually in a deep sleep =:No noise heard.
Sheila may have been under sedation according to the 2002 appeal = No noise heard.
Her bedroom door may have been shut = No noise audible.
Bamber may have shut main bedroom door before shooting June and Neville = No audible noise for Sheila to hear.
Both bedroom doors may have been shut. Together with a gap of several metres = Impossible for Sheila to hear first ten gun shots.
A silencer was used = Minimal and reduced noise.
The twins did not wake = No noise from them.
June was shot & died in/by the bed = No noise from her.
Neville & Jeremy went downstairs = Minimal short term noise.
There was a brief but brutal fight = Noise in another part of the large WHF.
Time process from Bamber's WHF entrance to Sheila's killing ,5 - 10 minutes = Short term bits of noise. Mainly downstairs.
So you are saying people do not scream or shout when they are being shot or in a brutal fight - really?
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So you are saying people do not scream or shout when they are being shot or in a brutal fight - really?
Of course there would be lots of shouting.
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I thought June was shot about seven times in quick succession. With her head on the pillow. Once in the throat ?
She was barely able to move a few feet. So doubt she did much shouting.
Neville ran downstairs for whatever reason. Why would he shout ?
Bamber wouldn't be shouting. He wanted a quiet and clinical execution.
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I thought June was shot about seven times in quick succession. With her head on the pillow. Once in the throat ?
She was barely able to move a few feet. So doubt she did much shouting.
Neville ran downstairs for whatever reason. Why would he shout ?
Bamber wouldn't be shouting. He wanted a quiet and clinical execution.
Adam maybe Ralph shouted at Sheila's bedroom door to wake her up before he went downstairs,
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I thought June was shot about seven times in quick succession. With her head on the pillow. Once in the throat ?
She was barely able to move a few feet. So doubt she did much shouting.
Neville ran downstairs for whatever reason. Why would he shout ?
Bamber wouldn't be shouting. He wanted a quiet and clinical execution.
She walked around the other side of the bed!! Of course there would be shouting "WHAT ARE YOU DOING" "OH MY GOD" "NO" "WHAT HAVE YOU DONE" - to claim the whole thing happened in silence is rather an odd suggestion.
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I thought June was shot about seven times in quick succession. With her head on the pillow. Once in the throat ?
She was barely able to move a few feet. So doubt she did much shouting.
Neville ran downstairs for whatever reason. Why would he shout ?
Bamber wouldn't be shouting. He wanted a quiet and clinical execution.
Not according to the oracle
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I thought June was shot about seven times in quick succession. With her head on the pillow. Once in the throat ?
She was barely able to move a few feet. So doubt she did much shouting.
Neville ran downstairs for whatever reason. Why would he shout ?
Bamber wouldn't be shouting. He wanted a quiet and clinical execution.
It would be perfectly reasonable -given how Jeremy justified what he was going to do before he did it- for him to explain to his victims his reasons for dispatching them. It wouldn't have been UNreasonable for either parent, at SOME point, to try to reason with him.
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Adam maybe Ralph shouted at Sheila's bedroom door to wake her up before he went downstairs,
His voicebox was severed by the shot to his jaw that lodged in his throat.
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So you are saying people do not scream or shout when they are being shot or in a brutal fight - really?
People involved in a brutal fight are usually busy with the fight not with screaming for help. Nevill could not should because his voicebox was severed and the fight was so far away that Sheila would be unlikely to wake up from it anyway.
June was shot right away in the head and might not have ever woken up sufficiently before being injured to be aware of what was even going on. She may have simply walked around the bed in a daze before collapsing.
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It would be perfectly reasonable -given how Jeremy justified what he was going to do before he did it- for him to explain to his victims his reasons for dispatching them. It wouldn't have been UNreasonable for either parent, at SOME point, to try to reason with him.
So Bamber had a chat with June and Neville. And Sheila. Before killing them.
Was that over a cuppa ?
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Susan there is virtually no possibility of Sheila waking.
It depends on how light of a sleeper she was and how much noise was being made. It is possible she woke up at some point of her own volition as opposed to Jeremy waking her. Only Jeremy knows whether it happened.
What is obvious is that if she did wake up and leave her room on her own volition as opposed to at gunpoint she wasn't out of her room very long before Jeremy showed up because she would have gone to check on her kids and tried to hide them or get them out of the house. The fact she didn't do this means either she never left her room until Jeremy forced her at gunpoint or took a while to wake and leave her room, saw her mother's body then Jeremy was returning up the stairs with the loaded weapon and she tried to run away by going through the boxroom but her stopped her before she made it.
It is more likely that he woke her up and marched her at gunpoint than her leaving of her own volition but suggesting it is virtually impossible for her to have woken up is not true. The odds are simply more likely than not, not beyond a reasonable doubt as you suggest.
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No,the cup of tea came later between Sheila and her father in the kitchen. Possibly during which Sheila made herself a snack.
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Adam maybe Ralph shouted at Sheila's bedroom door to wake her up before he went downstairs,
I don't know why there is resistance.
It is clear that Sheila would not wake with the actions upstairs. The twins didn't.
All that happened upstairs was Bamber shot 10/11 bullets into Neville and June. With the silencer attached. There were two shut doors and two walls between the shots and Sheila.
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Would an awake Sheila hear the rifle being fired with the silencer attached. If there were two walls, two shut doors and several metres between her and the shots ?
Maybe. If she had good ears. I am sure Scipio will inform me.
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The downstairs fight may have been much louder.
Bamber had no control over it. Although Neville was already badly injured.
Bamber brutally beat him with the rifle but and shot him another three times. He was not marked himself.
If it was louder downstairs, the problem then is Sheila is upstairs. Asleep with her bedroom door shut.
However it is more likely Sheila would wake from this. Although the twins didn't.
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So Bamber had a chat with June and Neville. And Sheila. Before killing them.
Was that over a cuppa ?
You're the one suggesting such.
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Would an awake Sheila hear the rifle being fired with the silencer attached. If there were two walls, two shut doors and several metres between her and the shots ?
Maybe. If she had good ears.
I can hear people running down the stairs with my bedroom door closed. Whether that is enough to wake me up depends on how sound I am sleeping. I normally am a light sleeper so usually it will. Similarly the thump of June collapsing could potentially wake someone. While the fight in the kitchen is happening she walks around the bed, back towards the door and goes thump. Sheila could hear this eventually decide to go look and then before she even has a chance to run to check on the boys Jeremy returns.
How many times do people hear noises and instead of rushing right out they listen to try to see if they can identify what the noise was/listen for more noise and only after they can't identify it or the noise stops do they go investigate? It is a rather common thing to do such as opposed to rushing immediately.
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I can hear people running down the stairs with my bedroom door closed. Whether that is enough to wake me up depends on how sound I am sleeping. I normally am a light sleeper so usually it will. Similarly the thump of June collapsing could potentially wake someone. While the fight in the kitchen is happening she walks around the bed, back towards the door and goes thump. Sheila could hear this eventually decide to go look and then before she even has a chance to run to check on the boys Jeremy returns.
How many times do people hear noises and instead of rushing right out they listen to try to see if they can identify what the noise was/listen for more noise and only after they can't identify it or the noise stops do they go investigate? It is a rather common thing to do such as opposed to rushing immediately.
I think this may be a case of a story being made up and expanded step by step to make fit the theory that a soundly sleeping Sheila was lifted from her bed and carried, unwaking and unprotesting to her death.
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I can hear people running down the stairs with my bedroom door closed. Whether that is enough to wake me up depends on how sound I am sleeping. I normally am a light sleeper so usually it will. Similarly the thump of June collapsing could potentially wake someone. While the fight in the kitchen is happening she walks around the bed, back towards the door and goes thump. Sheila could hear this eventually decide to go look and then before she even has a chance to run to check on the boys Jeremy returns.
How many times do people hear noises and instead of rushing right out they listen to try to see if they can identify what the noise was/listen for more noise and only after they can't identify it or the noise stops do they go investigate? It is a rather common thing to do such as opposed to rushing immediately.
It's common sense for Bamber to ensure all bedroom doors are shut, and to shut the main bedroom door before opening fire.
Would 10/11 bullets being fired in quick succession, with a silencer attached, be loud enough to travel through two doors, two walls and several metres to wake Sheila ?
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It's common sense for Bamber to ensure all bedroom doors are shut, and to shut the main bedroom door before opening fire.
Would 10/11 bullets being fired in quick succession, with a silencer attached, be loud enough to travel through two doors, two walls and several metres to wake Sheila ?
Presumably, he'd previously gone to the lengths of checking to make certain none of the doors squeaked and there were no loose floorboards anywhere which would give him away by creaking.
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Presumably, he'd previously gone to the lengths of checking to make certain none of the doors squeaked and there were no loose floorboards anywhere which would give him away by creaking.
Closing the door was indeed common sense, not only to prevent others from hearing the noise but also to make it harder for the parents to escape. But that just means either Jeremy or Nevill opened the door and Sheila could have heard it open in addition to hearing both go down the stairs.
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Closing the door was indeed common sense, not only to prevent others from hearing the noise but also to make it harder for the parents to escape. But that just means either Jeremy or Nevill opened the door and Sheila could have heard it open in addition to hearing both go down the stairs.
Why would opening a door be loud ?
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Why would opening a door be loud ?
House movements are more audible at night than during the day.
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House movements are more audible at night than during the day.
Old houses are particularly noisy with their creaks and thuds
Sound travels strangely as well, you may not hear what happens next door but can hear noises from a different part of the house quite clearly.
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Old houses are particularly noisy with their creaks and thuds
Sound travels strangely as well, you may not hear what happens next door but can hear noises from a different part of the house quite clearly.
Yes, I've suggested, to Adam, the possibility that Jeremy checked out the floorboards and doors to make certain they were silent but he seems to have missed it.
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Yes, I've suggested, to Adam, the possibility that Jeremy checked out the floorboards and doors to make certain they were silent but he seems to have missed it.
Growing up, I used to sneak downstairs ALOT. I knew which step to stand on & which ones to avoid at all costs. Can imagine Jeremy learned the same since he was more than familiar with that house.
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Yes, I've suggested, to Adam, the possibility that Jeremy checked out the floorboards and doors to make certain they were silent but he seems to have missed it.
;D ;D He could have painted all creaky floorboards and stair treads red the day before to highlight them, no one would have noticed ;D ;D
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I think this may be a case of a story being made up and expanded step by step to make fit the theory that a soundly sleeping Sheila was lifted from her bed and carried, unwaking and unprotesting to her death.
There are lots of theories.
The recent video had Sheila being lead. Without protesting.
Wilkes's book said David Boutflour believed Bamber woke Sheila and persuaded her to go into the main bedroom because 'mummy' wants to pray with her.
Scipio believes she was woken and lead at gun point.
With everyone dead, Bamber also had the option of carrying her.
I've forgotten what CAL's book says.
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I can't bear to think of Bamber opening the door to the twins' room,closing it gingerly behind him,creeping up on Nicholas and Daniel and slugging them in the head..
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There are lots of theories.
The recent video had Sheila being lead. Without protesting.
Wilkes's book said David Boutflour believed Bamber woke Sheila and persuaded her to go into the main bedroom because 'mummy' wants to pray with her.
Scipio believes she was woken and lead at gun point.
With everyone dead, Bamber also had the option of carrying her.
I've forgotten what CAL's book says.
Yes, there are, but you seem to be taking the opportunity to, rather than examine them, ridicule ALL, other than your own theory of Jeremy carrying her to her death.
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I can't bear to think of Bamber opening the door to the twins' room,closing it gingerly behind him,creeping up on Nicholas and Daniel and slugging them in the head..
Its unthinkable whoever it was.
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Its unthinkable whoever it was.
Delightfully unselfish boys,who had taken a few of life's hard knocks yet were so unassumingly altruistic,dying as Colin said before ever knowing that they were heirs to a fortune.
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I can't bear to think of Bamber opening the door to the twins' room,closing it gingerly behind him,creeping up on Nicholas and Daniel and slugging them in the head..
I agree. It's too unbearable to dwell on, isn't it.
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Delightfully unselfish boys,who had taken a few of life's hard knocks yet were so unassumingly altruistic,dying as Colin said before ever knowing that they were heirs to a fortune.
All for greed too, just sad.
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I can't bear to think of Bamber opening the door to the twins' room,closing it gingerly behind him,creeping up on Nicholas and Daniel and slugging them in the head..
If Jeremy committed the crime I am 99% sure he targeted them first, because shooting them while asleep would be allot easier than shooting them while awake. They died in their sleep and that's a good thing as opposed to them contemplating the situation awake.
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If Jeremy committed the crime I am 99% sure he targeted them first, because shooting them while asleep would be allot easier than shooting them while awake. They died in their sleep and that's a good thing as opposed to them contemplating the situation awake.
Shooting 6.4, 15 stone Neville and June while asleep is a lot easier than if awake.
Just ask Bamber.
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Quite a lot of the shooting was carried out after the person was dead. Wasn't the shooter aware that there'd have been no need to have carried on pumping the bullets or were they mad altogether ?
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If Jeremy committed the crime I am 99% sure he targeted them first, because shooting them while asleep would be allot easier than shooting them while awake. They died in their sleep and that's a good thing as opposed to them contemplating the situation awake.
Yes it would be very hard to judge who would be a heavy or light sleeper and who if they woke up would cause most havoc .
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Quite a lot of the shooting was carried out after the person was dead. Wasn't the shooter aware that there'd have been no need to have carried on pumping the bullets or were they mad altogether ?
The reason for this is, I think, Bamber wanted it to look like a frenzied attack.
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The reason for this is, I think, Bamber wanted it to look like a frenzied attack.
or it was done by a mentally ill person.
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The reason for this is, I think, Bamber wanted it to look like a frenzied attack.
Well of course you would say that.I was waiting !
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or it was done by a mentally ill person.
By mentally ill person you mean Sheila. But I think the evidence shows she didn't do anything of the sort, but don't let that get in your way. :-\
Well of course you would say that.I was waiting !
Glad not to dissapoint you.
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The reason for this is, I think, Bamber wanted it to look like a frenzied attack.
And the rifle was not powerful. So had no choice.
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By mentally ill person you mean Sheila. But I think the evidence shows she didn't do anything of the sort, but don't let that get in your way. :-\
Glad not to dissapoint you.
Oh you certainly don't do that----------pity about the spelling though. ;D
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And the rifle was not powerful. So had no choice.
not powerful? It killed 5 people?
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And the rifle was not powerful. So had no choice.
Would have been even less powerful if Bamber hadn't have got the gun he wanted.
Oh you certainly don't do that----------pity about the spelling though. ;D
Oh, am I not a great speller Lookout? I am sorry for that I'm quite dyslexic but I have managed to get myself over something that can be quite limiting for people. But then again I think spelling a couple of words wrong on the internet is forgivable - posting propaganda for a convicted child killer when you constantly get FACTS wrong, not so forgivable.
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not powerful? It killed 5 people?
And had it been powerful enough to kill with one, well aimed shot for each victim, it quite obviously wouldn't have been Sheila.
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not powerful? It killed 5 people?
Eventually. After 20+ close range shots.
A Magnum would blow you're head clean off. But Clint always went for body shots.
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not powerful? It killed 5 people?
Any of the guns could have killed 5 people. But with a lot of effort and mess. the more powerful weapon seemed to struggle to get the intended job done.
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Would have been even less powerful if Bamber hadn't have got the gun he wanted.
Oh, am I not a great speller Lookout? I am sorry for that I'm quite dyslexic but I have managed to get myself over something that can be quite limiting for people. But then again I think spelling a couple of words wrong on the internet is forgivable - posting propaganda for a convicted child killer when you constantly get FACTS wrong, not so forgivable.
Oh dear,it's I feel sorry for me time. ::) Playing the sympathy card doesn't work with me Mat. While you're at it,prove that what I say is propaganda. After all,it's only the opposite of what you say !
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Oh dear,it's I feel sorry for me time. ::) Playing the sympathy card doesn't work with me Mat. While you're at it,prove that what I say is propaganda. After all,it's only the opposite of what you say !
Sympathy card? Being dyslexic isn't an illness ;D In fact most people wouldn't even be able to tell from most of my posts.
While you're at it,prove that what I say is propaganda. After all,it's only the opposite of what you say !
Aren't you the one who posted the lies about what Ralph was wearing in his photograph? Yes.
You preach the official sites propaganda about a phone call from Neville.
Aren't you one who pretends there is a hidden, secret COLP report?
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Sympathy card? Being dyslexic isn't an illness ;D In fact most people wouldn't even be able to tell from most of my posts.
Aren't you the one who posted the lies about what Ralph was wearing in his photograph? Yes.
You preach the official sites propaganda about a phone call from Neville.
Aren't you one who pretends there is a hidden, secret COLP report?
Where did you dig these oddities up from ? Lies about " what Ralph was wearing ? What's that about ?
Preach " about a phone-call ?" Wasn't there a poll/discussion among OUR posters here about that,or is it that you just want to single me out ?
Pretends there's " a hidden secret COLP report ?".When ?
What the heck ARE you on about ?
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Where did you dig these oddities up from ? Lies about " what Ralph was wearing ? What's that about ?
Preach " about a phone-call ?" Wasn't there a poll/discussion among OUR posters here about that,or is it that you just want to single me out ?
Pretends there's " a hidden secret COLP report ?".When ?
What the heck ARE you on about ?
For God's sake Lookout, you know what I am talking about on every point! NOW you really are showing deceit - because all of these have been talked about a lot recently.
But taking them one by one.
You claimed a "source" had told you information about the state of Nevilles pyjama top.
NGB and Caroline - who have seen the photo corrected you. I believe the two of them.
A phonecall poll was posted here, by Caroline I believe, not because there is any truth to it but to show that MOST people don't believe it. The phone call is official site propaganda - I think you're the only person here who believes it.
The second hidden COLP report was posted about by.......YOU when you were going on aboutcomments made by AE in her COLP statement - Patti traced these back to a pro Jeremy blog - by someone of the name of Poppy - who was claiming there is a hidden COLP report.
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Where did you dig these oddities up from ? Lies about " what Ralph was wearing ? What's that about ?
Preach " about a phone-call ?" Wasn't there a poll/discussion among OUR posters here about that,or is it that you just want to single me out ?
Pretends there's " a hidden secret COLP report ?".When ?
What the heck ARE you on about ?
Yes, there was a poll Lookout and the majority of posters thought that Nevill didn't call the police - it was removed and I still see no good reason why that happened.
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For God's sake Lookout, you know what I am talking about on every point! NOW you really are showing deceit - because all of these have been talked about a lot recently.
But taking them one by one.
You claimed a "source" had told you information about the state of Nevilles pyjama top.
NGB and Caroline - who have seen the photo corrected you. I believe the two of them.
A phonecall poll was posted here, by Caroline I believe, not because there is any truth to it but to show that MOST people don't believe it. The phone call is official site propaganda - I think you're the only person here who believes it.
The second hidden COLP report was posted about by.......YOU when you were going on aboutcomments made by AE in her COLP statement - Patti traced these back to a pro Jeremy blog - by someone of the name of Poppy - who was claiming there is a hidden COLP report.
All I can see are straightforward debates and MY opinions given. What the Hell have they got to do with anything besides you using them as fodder in which to continually goad me,you nasty horrible person.
All you're fit for is telling tales about me,being as nasty as you possibly can,though it doesn't take much, and generally nit-picking EVERY damn post I make.
What I post are MY opinions,rightly or wrongly and I don't need you to snipe at each and every one of them. YOU don't know any more than I do !
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All I can see are straightforward debates and MY opinions given. What the Hell have they got to do with anything besides you using them as fodder in which to continually goad me,you nasty horrible person.
All you're fit for is telling tales about me,being as nasty as you possibly can,though it doesn't take much, and generally nit-picking EVERY damn post I make.
What I post are MY opinions,rightly or wrongly and I don't need you to snipe at each and every one of them. YOU don't know any more than I do !
No, Lookout, I don't know anymore than you - or anyone else. We all have the same information to go on. But you were wrong about the photo of Ralph, you are wrong about the phone call from Ralph and you are wrong about a second hidden COLP report with comments from AE.
Now that, IS NOT PERSONAL against you - if Caroline was posting such, she would be wrong too!
But all you're doing is backtracking, as usual. It wasn't your OPINION about Ralphs clothing, you CLAIMED you had a SOURCE.
It may not be YOU making the BS up - but you're the one posting it. It may have been your source that MADE UP seeing the photo of Ralph uncensored - but it was YOU that posted it on here.
It may be POPPY who MADE UP a secret second COLP report with comments from AE but it was YOU who posted it on here.
Call me all the names you like, I don't really care.
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All I can see are straightforward debates and MY opinions given. What the Hell have they got to do with anything besides you using them as fodder in which to continually goad me,you nasty horrible person.
All you're fit for is telling tales about me,being as nasty as you possibly can,though it doesn't take much, and generally nit-picking EVERY damn post I make.
What I post are MY opinions,rightly or wrongly and I don't need you to snipe at each and every one of them. YOU don't know any more than I do !
Lookout, that seems to be a very strong reaction to what Mat has just said. Could it be that you're taking it a bit too personally? I know you can't always recall where you've read the things you've said, OR who said them but it might be better for you to reference your source BEFORE you post them, then you won't be blamed for it.
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For Lookout http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,3703.msg148174.html#msg148174
I found the post but not the evidence to back it up.
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No, Lookout, I don't know anymore than you - or anyone else. We all have the same information to go on. But you were wrong about the photo of Ralph, you are wrong about the phone call from Ralph and you are wrong about a second hidden COLP report with comments from AE.
Now that, IS NOT PERSONAL against you - if Caroline was posting such, she would be wrong too!
But all you're doing is backtracking, as usual. It wasn't your OPINION about Ralphs clothing, you CLAIMED you had a SOURCE.
It may not be YOU making the BS up - but you're the one posting it. It may have been your source that MADE UP seeing the photo of Ralph uncensored - but it was YOU that posted it on here.
It may be POPPY who MADE UP a secret second COLP report with comments from AE but it was YOU who posted it on here.
Call me all the names you like, I don't really care.
Tell me why does it bother you SO much that I happen to post the wrong information ? Or is it because it's me ? I have noticed your attitude towards those who think JB is guilty against those who are either unsure or shock horror whether they dare be like me and say he's innocent. Don't you think it's time that you stopped finding fault with my posts and stop making a big deal of where I MAY have gone wrong and just continue to keep agreeing with your own " team ? "
If I want to believe that Neville phoned,then so be it,it's my opinion and has got nothing to do with you. If taped copies of the original tapes had been retained then the jury might have recognised the difference in the voices making those calls. Strange how Jeremy wouldn't have been worried nor bothered if they'd been retained ? In fact he was probably hopping mad that no copies had been made as conveniently enough the originals were destroyed a day before his first arrest ! If EP knew they were going to arrest Jeremy for questioning,why did they destroy the tapes within a day of knowing ?
I don't follow OS because in my opinion they've got a lot wrong,lawyers or not.
My opinions are my own and it's not up to you or anyone else to change them.
I don't tell anyone that they're wrong because that's THEIR opinion.
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Tell me why does it bother you SO much that I happen to post the wrong information ?
If I want to believe that Neville phoned,then so be it,it's my opinion and has got nothing to do with you. If taped copies of the original tapes had been retained then the jury might have recognised the difference in the voices making those calls. Strange how Jeremy wouldn't have been worried nor bothered if they'd been retained ? In fact he was probably hopping mad that no copies had been made as conveniently enough the originals were destroyed a day before his first arrest ! If EP knew they were going to arrest Jeremy for questioning,why did they destroy the tapes within a day of knowing ?
I don't follow OS because in my opinion they've got a lot wrong,lawyers or not.
My opinions are my own and it's not up to you or anyone else to change them.
I don't tell anyone that they're wrong because that's THEIR opinion.
There were never any taped phone calls. Recorded calls destroyed a day before Bambers arrest? See this is the problem I have with your posts. It's things like these why you get a negative backlash and why supporters think you're a plant to make them look bad.
No taped phone call.
Wasn't destroyed the day before his arrest.
Post evidence and prove me wrong.
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Tell me why does it bother you SO much that I happen to post the wrong information ? Or is it because it's me ? I have noticed your attitude towards those who think JB is guilty against those who are either unsure or shock horror whether they dare be like me and say he's innocent. Don't you think it's time that you stopped finding fault with my posts and stop making a big deal of where I MAY have gone wrong and just continue to keep agreeing with your own " team ? "
If I want to believe that Neville phoned,then so be it,it's my opinion and has got nothing to do with you. If taped copies of the original tapes had been retained then the jury might have recognised the difference in the voices making those calls. Strange how Jeremy wouldn't have been worried nor bothered if they'd been retained ? In fact he was probably hopping mad that no copies had been made as conveniently enough the originals were destroyed a day before his first arrest ! If EP knew they were going to arrest Jeremy for questioning,why did they destroy the tapes within a day of knowing ?
I don't follow OS because in my opinion they've got a lot wrong,lawyers or not.
My opinions are my own and it's not up to you or anyone else to change them.
I don't tell anyone that they're wrong because that's THEIR opinion.
Lookout I recognize the amount of time you and Mike have spent in championing Jeremy's cause,even though I don't agree with your conclusions. Jeremy doesn't have two more loyal supporters.
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Tell me why does it bother you SO much that I happen to post the wrong information ? Or is it because it's me ? I have noticed your attitude towards those who think JB is guilty against those who are either unsure or shock horror whether they dare be like me and say he's innocent. Don't you think it's time that you stopped finding fault with my posts and stop making a big deal of where I MAY have gone wrong and just continue to keep agreeing with your own " team ? "
If I want to believe that Neville phoned,then so be it,it's my opinion and has got nothing to do with you. If taped copies of the original tapes had been retained then the jury might have recognised the difference in the voices making those calls. Strange how Jeremy wouldn't have been worried nor bothered if they'd been retained ? In fact he was probably hopping mad that no copies had been made as conveniently enough the originals were destroyed a day before his first arrest ! If EP knew they were going to arrest Jeremy for questioning,why did they destroy the tapes within a day of knowing ?
I don't follow OS because in my opinion they've got a lot wrong,lawyers or not.
My opinions are my own and it's not up to you or anyone else to change them.
I don't tell anyone that they're wrong because that's THEIR opinion.
Lookout, I think I'm probably more relieved to know you've got your own theories, than that you buy into some of what is said here. Personally I don't believe the taped copies thing any more than I believe some buffoon walked around the crime scene with a video camera -did he also do the commentary? But each to their own, eh?
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Lookout I recognize the amount of time you and Mike have spent in championing Jeremy's cause,even though I don't agree with your conclusions. Jeremy doesn't have two more loyal supporters.
Looking back at some posts from December 2011 one poster in particular was speaking to a female juror during the early part of 2000 and she told the poster that had she known as much then as she knew presently she'd have given an innocent verdict.
The poster in question seemingly first supported innocence but ended up thinking guilty because I remember him when I first came onto the forum. He was rather hostile towards me too,probably because of my stance.
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Looking back at some posts from December 2011 one poster in particular was speaking to a female juror during the early part of 2000 and she told the poster that had she known as much then as she knew presently she'd have given an innocent verdict.
The poster in question seemingly first supported innocence but ended up thinking guilty because I remember him when I first came onto the forum. He was rather hostile towards me too,probably because of my stance.
Which poster?
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Which poster?
Correction----------it's worse.The poster was " speaking about an article that he'd read in some newspaper " ( not speaking to her ) about what the female juror had said,so it was printed for all to see.
The poster in question was Tonyb.
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Jeremy's latest blog is on Bambertweets.
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Correction----------it's worse.The poster was " speaking about an article that he'd read in some newspaper " ( not speaking to her ) about what the female juror had said,so it was printed for all to see.
The poster in question was Tonyb.
It was in a newspaper? Is there a link in the post to the article?
The story about Jeremy selling pictures of Sheila was in a newspaper for all to see - just thought I would point that out! ;)
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It was in a newspaper? Is there a link in the post to the article?
The story about Jeremy selling pictures of Sheila was in a newspaper for all to see - just thought I would point that out! ;)
I've been looking for the damn post for the last hour,but I'll find it eventually. It was possibly in an Essex local Gazette-1991 I think. I can't ever imagine tonyb making things up.
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I also found a post of vidvic's where he'd said there were 4 silencers-------so there you go.
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I also found a post of vidvic's where he'd said there were 4 silencers-------so there you go.
Hi Lookout, it would be easier for other people to find these things if you just noted what the title of the thread was and the number of the post. :)
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Hi Lookout, it would be easier for other people to find these things if you just noted what the title of the thread was and the number of the post. :)
It's because I spend so much time going through old posts,etc looking for links as documentation proof that I forget which threads I've been on but still retain,in my memory, those posts which might be relevant. I'm still looking for the " jury " post. ::) What am I like ?
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It's because I spend so much time going through old posts,etc looking for links as documentation proof that I forget which threads I've been on but still retain,in my memory, those posts which might be relevant. I'm still looking for the " jury " post. ::) What am I like ?
I'll try and find the one from Tony if you look for Vic's?
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OK, here it is http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2984.msg108070.html#msg108070
Tony only THINKS he read it.
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Here is Vic's post http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,3505.msg138618.html#msg138618
This simply confirms that the family owned silencers, they were similar not the same. I think it's common knowledge on here that the family owned silencers?
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OK, here it is http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2984.msg108070.html#msg108070
Tony only THINKS he read it.
You'd think that Tony would remember something like that wouldn't you? How can you sort of remember and think you read something which is actually pretty big?
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You'd think that Tony would remember something like that wouldn't you? How can you sort of remember and think you read something which is actually pretty big?
Bit flimsy, isn't it? I THINK I'm certain that I read someone had left me a million pounds but I can't remember who it was or where I read it. ;D
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Bit flimsy, isn't it? I THINK I'm certain that I read someone had left me a million pounds but I can't remember who it was or where I read it. ;D
And I am pretty sure I seem to remember you owe me that million pounds, if you ever find it.
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Those are the ones. I'm now reading the thread " Example of how Relatives Names are Blackened ".
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Those are the ones. I'm now reading the thread " Example of how Relatives Names are Blackened ".
Just put that into a search to be told "No Matches Found"?
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Just put that into a search to be told "No Matches Found"?
I've written it as it is on the thread,(without the apostrophes)-----Dec.14th 2012.
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I've written it as it is on the thread,(without the apostrophes)-----Dec.14th 2012.
Same response "No Matches Found"
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Same response "No Matches Found"
It's interesting too as Roch's posts are something else ( well written and worded ) :-[
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OK, here it is http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2984.msg108070.html#msg108070
Tony only THINKS he read it.
The campaign team would be using such for propaganda if such story did exist.
In the meantime even when jurors do say such things it is worthless. A juror saying that they would have been swayed by unsupported claims and inadmissible evidence is quite meaningless. The whole reason inadmissible evidence is kept out is to prevent jurors from irrationally assigning weight to unreliable claims as this juror allegedly did.
To make matters worse a juror won't even remember all the evidence in the case years later so the more time that passes the less the juror will even know just how strong the case was unless the juror makes an effort to learn all the evidence and details again.
For a jury verdict to be undone new ADMISSIBLE evidence must be found which could have resulted in a rational jury acquitting the convict. An actual juror hearing all the convict's inadmissible BS and/or BS of the convicts supporters and being swayed by such would not mean squat. Such juror likely would only hear one side anyway, not the BS being taken apart.
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It's interesting too as Roch's posts are something else ( well written and worded ) :-[
But Roch would be the first to admit, they are his 'opinion'.
This is the link to the thread you mention about - not sure why it's important?
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,3685.msg146055.html#msg146055
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But Roch would be the first to admit, they are his 'opinion'.
This is the link to the thread you mention about - not sure why it's important?
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,3685.msg146055.html#msg146055
Roch used the argument of undisclosed evidence back then - I'd be interested in what he thought now that all the evidence has been given to Bamber - if you believe Bamber that is.
Also, that topic shows what a damn good member Petey was.
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But Roch would be the first to admit, they are his 'opinion'.
This is the link to the thread you mention about - not sure why it's important?
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,3685.msg146055.html#msg146055
I didn't say it was important.I said it was interesting.
I wouldn't attach any importance to the case or what posters have to say anyway. I have a life beyond this which is far more important to me.
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I didn't say it was important.I said it was interesting.
I wouldn't attach any importance to the case or what posters have to say anyway. I have a life beyond this which is far more important to me.
I think we ALL do.
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Roch used the argument of undisclosed evidence back then - I'd be interested in what he thought now that all the evidence has been given to Bamber - if you believe Bamber that is.
Also, that topic shows what a damn good member Petey was.
yes strange that EP lied when they said they would not release the PII material . But as they said it was not indexed in any way - so I guess they innocently missed some of the many bits of paper when they sent them to Jeremy .
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Roch used the argument of undisclosed evidence back then - I'd be interested in what he thought now that all the evidence has been given to Bamber - if you believe Bamber that is.
Also, that topic shows what a damn good member Petey was.
Petey still is a good member, mat.
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Petey still is a good member, mat.
But he isn't active as much as he used to be and doesn't get stuck in as much as he did during the time period that topic was from , which is clearly what I meant.. He's one of my best friends on here and will have known what I meant and that it wasn't a slight against him in any way. ;)
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But he isn't active as much as he used to be and doesn't get stuck in as much as he did during the time period that topic was from , which is clearly what I meant.. He's one of my best friends on here and will have known what I meant and that it wasn't a slight against him in any way. ;)
Didn't think I was, it just made me wonder and I checked in case he had deleted his account recently.
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Didn't think I was, it just made me wonder and I checked in case he had deleted his account recently.
I think he lost heart for the case.
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My hunch is he's overburdened with work.
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Evening everybody. I'm still here :)
Thanks for you comment Mat. I knew what u meant so resisted the temptation to 'send the boys round to have a word ;)!
With regards the jb case I still maintain a strong interest in the case and regularly log on although don't actively contribute as much for a few main reasons:
1) I simply don't have the time to spend as long researching, debating, discussing the case as I used to.
2) In my opinion v v v little is happening of late, When I have something productive to add to debate I will do but in my opinion nothing has changed and nothing looks like it will change for the foreseeable future, if ever at all.
3) As I've said repeatedly it is incredibly incredibly unlikely jb will ever be released unless there is a fundamental change of events such as a detective involved in the case from the date not only saying jb is innocent, but providing evidence of such. In my opinion this will never happen. Like everyone on here I've obviously heard claims from Mike et al that he has pictures of Sheila on the bed, he knows the police killed Sheila, he knows the police killed Neville, he has phone records that prove Neville called jb, jb will be released any day now........These ' claims' have been going on for years and years, yet surprise surprise not one single piece of tangible evidence has been made available.
4) Although I'm not going to rise to various attacks on me and sickening posts aimed at me over the years in particular by the likes of Mike, Jackie P, Steph, Lookout they do make me slightly more reluctant to log on for some idle chit chat on here when nothing fundamental is happening in the case. No disrespect to people who do spend every day on here, but I simply don't have the time or the inclination at present. If the case ever progresses or I have something more productive to add, maybe this will change.
Hope everyone is good. Always happy to pm people if anyone wants to talk / debate. Pete
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Thanks for you comment Mat. I knew what u meant so resisted the temptation to 'send the boys round to have a word ;)!
Glad about that! I thought what I said was pretty clear. ;D You had some pretty good posts in the old topic that was brought up, and your wit against those who attacked you has always entertained me as you know. ;D
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Evening everybody. I'm still here :)
Thanks for you comment Mat. I knew what u meant so resisted the temptation to 'send the boys round to have a word ;)!
With regards the jb case I still maintain a strong interest in the case and regularly log on although don't actively contribute as much for a few main reasons:
1) I simply don't have the time to spend as long researching, debating, discussing the case as I used to.
2) In my opinion v v v little is happening of late, When I have something productive to add to debate I will do but in my opinion nothing has changed and nothing looks like it will change for the foreseeable future, if ever at all.
3) As I've said repeatedly it is incredibly incredibly unlikely jb will ever be released unless there is a fundamental change of events such as a detective involved in the case from the date not only saying jb is innocent, but providing evidence of such. In my opinion this will never happen. Like everyone on here I've obviously heard claims from Mike et al that he has pictures of Sheila on the bed, he knows the police killed Sheila, he knows the police killed Neville, he has phone records that prove Neville called jb, jb will be released any day now........These ' claims' have been going on for years and years, yet surprise surprise not one single piece of tangible evidence has been made available.
4) Although I'm not going to rise to various attacks on me and sickening posts aimed at me over the years in particular by the likes of Mike, Jackie P, Steph, Lookout they do make me slightly more reluctant to log on for some idle chit chat on here when nothing fundamental is happening in the case. No disrespect to people who do spend every day on here, but I simply don't have the time or the inclination at present. If the case ever progresses or I have something more productive to add, maybe this will change.
Hope everyone is good. Always happy to pm people if anyone wants to talk / debate. Pete
Thanks petey, good to hear from you. :)
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Glad about that! I thought what I said was pretty clear. ;D You had some pretty good posts in the old topic that was brought up, and your wit against those who attacked you has always entertained me as you know. ;D
Cheers Mat. To be fair it wasn't that challenging ;)
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Cheers Mat. To be fair it wasn't that challenging ;)
Need new opponents? :D
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4) Although I'm not going to rise to various attacks on me and sickening posts aimed at me over the years in particular by the likes of Mike, Jackie P, Steph, Lookout they do make me slightly more reluctant to log on for some idle chit chat on here when nothing fundamental is happening in the case. No disrespect to people who do spend every day on here, but I simply don't have the time or the inclination at present. If the case ever progresses or I have something more productive to add, maybe this will change.
Hope everyone is good. Always happy to pm people if anyone wants to talk / debate. Pete
Glad about that! I thought what I said was pretty clear. ;D You had some pretty good posts in the old topic that was brought up, and your wit against those who attacked you has always entertained me as you know. ;D
Cheers Mat. To be fair it wasn't that challenging ;)
Make up your mind Petey; you can't have it both ways ::)
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Make up your mind Petey; you can't have it both ways ::)
I'm sure he can have it any which way he wants. ::)
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I'm sure he can have it any which way he wants. ::)
That's called hypocrisy ;D
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That's called hypocrisy ;D
Nuttin' wrong with a bit of that. ;D
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Nuttin' wrong with a bit of that. ;D
As we can see ;D
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As we can see ;D
Given your history/ordeal, I'm surprised you're not a little more sheepish. :-\
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Given your history/ordeal, I'm surprised you're not a little more sheepish. :-\
Sheepish about what?
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Given your history/ordeal, I'm surprised you're not a little more sheepish. :-\
“When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself”
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“When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself”
My surprise at your continuous mockery of others, is not judgement, it is just surprise, given what's gone before.
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My surprise at your continuous mockery of others, is not judgement, it is just surprise, given what's gone before.
Your hypocrisy knows no bounds!
Twist it whatever way you wish... I say again -
“When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself”
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Given your history/ordeal, I'm surprised you're not a little more sheepish. :-\
Sheepish about what?
My surprise at your continuous mockery of others, is not judgement, it is just surprise, given what's gone before.
I ask again - what do I have to be sheepish about?
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I'm sure he can have it any which way he wants. ::)
I'll leave you and Petey to it then... Good night :-*
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Make up your mind Petey; you can't have it both ways ::)
Not quite sure what you're alluding to?
Having less time doesn't mean I no longer post at all.
Not rising to attacks doesn't mean I won't reply if a reply is necessary.
I'm sure most right thinking people have found posts made by certain posters on Hillsborough threads go beyond the pale. However, I'm quite capable of responding to these in a measured tone, without 'rising'
I haven't enjoyed people either attacking me personally or making sickening posts on a variety of topics. Although to be fair, usually the insults are so ridiculous that they do nothing more than demean the poster making them.
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I ask again - what do I have to be sheepish about?
Oh you mean I should know my place and not dare to post my opinions to a couple of brutes like you and Petey? :o ::)
Goodnight boys :-*
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Oh you mean I should know my place and not dare to post my opinions to a couple of brutes like you and Petey? :o ::)
Goodnight boys :-*
I guess you've called me a lot worse over the years so I should take that as some kind of backhanded compliment. Thank you
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So--------it's because of the reason that I'm here that petey won't post ?
I would ask any poster to go back to petey's first posts aimed at me,then decide for yourselves whose posts were scathing----------------a nice welcome for me on to the forum over 3 years ago I must say !!
I suppose now I'm to blame for everyone else who has left the forum.!
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Petey,instead of surreptitiously including me in your post,why not post openly and honestly about your grievances of myself to find out if I might be answerable to your accusations.
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So--------it's because of the reason that I'm here that petey won't post ?
I would ask any poster to go back to petey's first posts aimed at me,then decide for yourselves whose posts were scathing----------------a nice welcome for me on to the forum over 3 years ago I must say !!
I suppose now I'm to blame for everyone else who has left the forum.!
Hello Lookout
Have not read petey's posts have not got time just now but one thing I can say with hand on heart nobody has ever left this forum because of you as you are loved by mostX
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So--------it's because of the reason that I'm here that petey won't post ?
I would ask any poster to go back to petey's first posts aimed at me,then decide for yourselves whose posts were scathing----------------a nice welcome for me on to the forum over 3 years ago I must say !!
I suppose now I'm to blame for everyone else who has left the forum.!
I don't know but I don't think that is what petey was saying, Lookout
You have had your disagreements but I think you are both good people with strong opinions however it's not my place to speak for either of you so shall :-X. :)
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So--------it's because of the reason that I'm here that petey won't post ?
I would ask any poster to go back to petey's first posts aimed at me,then decide for yourselves whose posts were scathing----------------a nice welcome for me on to the forum over 3 years ago I must say !!
I suppose now I'm to blame for everyone else who has left the forum.!
I don't think it was you who Petey was alluding to Lookout - think about it.
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I don't think it was you who Petey was alluding to Lookout - think about it.
That's debateable Caroline.
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That's debateable Caroline.
No, he did everything but write the persons name and it wasn't you! :D :D
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No, he did everything but write the persons name and it wasn't you! :D :D
Caroline my name was there with Jackie's,Steph's and Mike's.
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See post 429,4th paragraph. There's your proof.
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See post 429,4th paragraph. There's your proof.
Oh! :-[ - well, at least you have company? (Trying to make it sound better)
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Ignore Peteys post Lookout. I've never debated on the Hillsborough case for starters so I don't know why he has chosen to include me in his rant and allude to what he has? Guess he thinks it makes for better reading?
This is why in the past I questioned whether or not he was legally qualified. He cannot provide evidence for all of his assertions so am unsure why he posted our names like he has?
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Ignore Peteys post Lookout. I've never debated on the Hillsborough case for starters so I don't know why he has chosen to include me in his rant and allude to what he has? Guess he thinks it makes for better reading?
This is why in the past I questioned whether or not he was legally qualified. He cannot provide evidence for all of his assertions so am unsure why he posted our names like he has?
I shall ignore him in future Steph then he can't say anything.
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I shall ignore him in future Steph then he can't say anything.
No disrespect to people who do spend every day on here, but I simply don't have the time or the inclination at present. If the case ever progresses or I have something more productive to add, maybe this will change.
Well according to his post yesterday "I simply don't have the time or inclination at present" - he's referring to spending time on the forum and/or posting.
And as you can see he states "if the case ever progresses or I have something more productive to add" he appears to be suggesting he won't post.
So it's unlikely you'll need to ignore him as it doesn't appear he'll be posting anything "unproductive"
Time will tell I guess.....
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Ignore Peteys post Lookout. I've never debated on the Hillsborough case for starters so I don't know why he has chosen to include me in his rant and allude to what he has? Guess he thinks it makes for better reading?
This is why in the past I questioned whether or not he was legally qualified. He cannot provide evidence for all of his assertions so am unsure why he posted our names like he has?
I don't particularly wish to get involved in a tit for tat argument with u. I'm sure u are well aware that in my opinion we crossed words when u told me in no uncertain terms how u were looking forward to my apology when Simon Hall walked free an innocent man. This was sometime ago and don't think I've interacted with u much since. I can't begin to understand what you went through and I would imagine continue to go through.
Clearly I have not linked ur posts or lookouts to Hillsborough, although to be quite honest I think that is fairly obvious from my post. I did pick up lookout when in my opinion she showed disrespect to the victims, but that was some time ago.
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Petey,instead of surreptitiously including me in your post,why not post openly and honestly about your grievances of myself to find out if I might be answerable to your accusations.
Without going into detail and dragging up posts you have made over the years I think ur posting in relation to June Bamber and the relatives has been absolutely reprehensible. On top of that, intentionally or not u were very disrespectful to the victims of Hillsborough in one of your posts which I picked u up on, in my opinion.
I have no qualms with u choosing to support jb, although I think one basis of ur argument that u ' had a gut feeling from day 1' is deeply flawed.
Regardless of whether you think jb is innocent or guilty, surely u view the relatives and June Bamber the victims of an appalling tragedy?
In that regard I would never dream of making some of the posts u have aimed at the relatives or June Bamber, without definitive proof.
This is not an attempt to be condescending, but my conscience would not allow me to make posts attacking the relatives, June Bamber, Julie Mugford et al without tangible evidence of their wrong doing. Without such they are victims of a terrible tragedy. Unless u think that none of the relatives grieved when several members of their family died and they didn't care that they died, or the relatives were in some way behind their deaths, then I see no reason why u cannot view them as victims.
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I don't particularly wish to get involved in a tit for tat argument with u. I'm sure u are well aware that in my opinion we crossed words when u told me in no uncertain terms how u were looking forward to my apology when Simon Hall walked free an innocent man. This was sometime ago and don't think I've interacted with u much since. I can't begin to understand what you went through and I would imagine continue to go through.
Clearly I have not linked ur posts or lookouts to Hillsborough, although to be quite honest I think that is fairly obvious from my post. I did pick up lookout when in my opinion she showed disrespect to the victims, but that was some time ago.
You do indeed want to get involved in a 'tit for tat' argument with me; if you didn't you wouldn't have written the above....
You posted :
"Although I'm not going to rise to various attacks on me and sickening posts aimed at me over the years in particular by the likes of Mike, Jackie P, Steph, Lookout they do make me slightly more reluctant to log on for some idle chit chat on here when nothing fundamental is happening in the case"
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7052.msg334408.html#msg334408
Now you are talking about when I have allegedly said how I was looking forward to an apology from you when Simon Hall walked free an innocent man. I say allegedly because I can't be bothered to search for the evidence. Having said that, I believed him to be 100% innocent and nothing I read in the case files suggested otherwise and I believe I would have said that.
Anyway I am digressing - how the hell can you go from accusing me of attacking you and making sickening posts aimed at you, as you allude, to you now bringing up "how I said I would be awaiting for an apology from you when Simon Hall cleared his name?"
You are one sick twisted bloke/brute imo!
And you clearly have double standards.
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Without going into detail and dragging up posts you have made over the years I think ur posting in relation to June Bamber and the relatives has been absolutely reprehensible. On top of that, intentionally or not u were very disrespectful to the victims of Hillsborough in one of your posts which I picked u up on, in my opinion.
I have no qualms with u choosing to support jb, although I think one basis of ur argument that u ' had a gut feeling from day 1' is deeply flawed.
Regardless of whether you think jb is innocent or guilty, surely u view the relatives and June Bamber the victims of an appalling tragedy?
In that regard I would never dream of making some of the posts u have aimed at the relatives or June Bamber, without definitive proof.
This is not an attempt to be condescending, but my conscience would not allow me to make posts attacking the relatives, June Bamber, Julie Mugford et al without tangible evidence of their wrong doing. Without such they are victims of a terrible tragedy. Unless u think that none of the relatives grieved when several members of their family died and they didn't care that they died, or the relatives were in some way behind their deaths, then I see no reason why u cannot view them as victims.
Look at you. Bullying Lookout with your holier than thou nonsense.
Petey going by the evidence in your posts, it's questionable if you even have a conscience. Again my opinion to which I am entitled.
You really should take a long hard look at yourself in the mirror Peter.
You talk of other posters suggesting they have no respect but in actual fact it looks to me as though you are projecting your own character flaws.
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I don't particularly wish to get involved in a tit for tat argument with u. I'm sure u are well aware that in my opinion we crossed words when u told me in no uncertain terms how u were looking forward to my apology when Simon Hall walked free an innocent man. This was sometime ago and don't think I've interacted with u much since. I can't begin to understand what you went through and I would imagine continue to go through.
Clearly I have not linked ur posts or lookouts to Hillsborough, although to be quite honest I think that is fairly obvious from my post. I did pick up lookout when in my opinion she showed disrespect to the victims, but that was some time ago.
Oh; and we didn't 'cross words' as you put it Petey. You were a nasty little bully who seemed to get a kick out of making disrespectful, callous posts aimed at me, late at night, when there were no moderators on the forum.
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I don't particularly wish to get involved in a tit for tat argument with u. I'm sure u are well aware that in my opinion we crossed words when u told me in no uncertain terms how u were looking forward to my apology when Simon Hall walked free an innocent man. This was sometime ago and don't think I've interacted with u much since. I can't begin to understand what you went through and I would imagine continue to go through.
Clearly I have not linked ur posts or lookouts to Hillsborough, although to be quite honest I think that is fairly obvious from my post. I did pick up lookout when in my opinion she showed disrespect to the victims, but that was some time ago.
Without going into detail and dragging up posts you have made over the years I think ur posting in relation to June Bamber and the relatives has been absolutely reprehensible. On top of that, intentionally or not u were very disrespectful to the victims of Hillsborough in one of your posts which I picked u up on, in my opinion.
I have no qualms with u choosing to support jb, although I think one basis of ur argument that u ' had a gut feeling from day 1' is deeply flawed.
Regardless of whether you think jb is innocent or guilty, surely u view the relatives and June Bamber the victims of an appalling tragedy?
In that regard I would never dream of making some of the posts u have aimed at the relatives or June Bamber, without definitive proof.
This is not an attempt to be condescending, but my conscience would not allow me to make posts attacking the relatives, June Bamber, Julie Mugford et al without tangible evidence of their wrong doing. Without such they are victims of a terrible tragedy. Unless u think that none of the relatives grieved when several members of their family died and they didn't care that they died, or the relatives were in some way behind their deaths, then I see no reason why u cannot view them as victims.
I've quoted your last two posts together so that posters with a modicum of common sense can see you for what you are and see your double standards and hypocrisy side by side....
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My surprise at your continuous mockery of others, is not judgement, it is just surprise, given what's gone before.
And Hartley had the audacity to suggest I was 'continuously mocking'.... ::)
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Well according to his post yesterday "I simply don't have the time or inclination at present" - he's referring to spending time on the forum and/or posting.
And as you can see he states "if the case ever progresses or I have something more productive to add" he appears to be suggesting he won't post.
So it's unlikely you'll need to ignore him as it doesn't appear he'll be posting anything "unproductive"
Time will tell I guess.....
Well it didn't take him long Lookout and I wouldn't call anything he has posted since 'productive' ::)
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And Hartley had the audacity to suggest I was 'continuously mocking'.... ::)
Indeed.
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Well it didn't take him long Lookout and I wouldn't call anything he has posted since 'productive' ::)
I thank you for your support Steph for which I'm grateful. x I won't be answering his lies and drivel as he's not worth conversing with and I don't answer to cowards and bullies anyway.
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I thank you for your support Steph for which I'm grateful. x I won't be answering his lies and drivel as he's not worth conversing with and I don't answer to cowards and bullies anyway.
No problem Lookout! X
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The last number re-dial phone which was found under magazines,was it ever plugged in to find out what the last number dialled was ? Or,dare I ask,fingerprinted too ?
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The last number re-dial phone which was found under magazines,was it ever plugged in to find out what the last number dialled was ? Or,dare I ask,fingerprinted too ?
After it was found it was plugged back in the kitchen and used once again instead of using the dial phone. All the police would get would be the last number of the farm secretary or whoever used it last after it was uncovered.
It wasn't plugged in the night of the murders so who cares anyway what the last number dialed was or whose prints were on it. Jeremy used it prior to the murders so would have an excuse for his prints being on it the same goes true for the entire family.
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After it was found it was plugged back in the kitchen and used once again instead of using the dial phone. All the police would get would be the last number of the farm secretary or whoever used it last after it was uncovered.
It wasn't plugged in the night of the murders so who cares anyway what the last number dialed was or whose prints were on it. Jeremy used it prior to the murders so would have an excuse for his prints being on it the same goes true for the entire family.
So you don't know who was last to use the phone then ? Could have been Neville for all any of us know ???
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So you don't know who was last to use the phone then ? Could have been Neville for all any of us know ???
We know it was unplugged, hidden and replaced by the time Pike picked up the cordless phone on Monday August 5. We do not know whether Jeremy did so moments before Pike showed up or earlier that day or even on Sunday. We only know it was done BY the time Pike picked it up. So we don't even know for sure when it was removed only when it was removed by let alone when it was last used prior to being replaced with the bedroom phone.
Who used it last holds no significance so as far as the murders are concerned since it was unplugged at least 36 hours before the murders occurred.
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If the call from Neville was fake to provide an alibi it was planned - so what are your ideas for why in his plan -
he claimed to have called his father back a couple of times ?
Why if he was trying to create a siege situation ( as claimed ) did he not mention a shot being fired .
Why did he "make up" a story about looking through a phone book ?
Why did he not make sure he knew the times of the calls?
Why did he get in a muddle about whether he called Julie before the police ? If Julie was part of the alibi you think he would have got the order and the times right?
Why did he think the police would be able to trace the call?
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If the call from Neville was fake to provide an alibi it was planned - so what are your ideas for why in his plan -
Indeed it was part of his plan all along to present the alibi that he received a call, he even told Julie about such being part of his plan prior to the murders and she in turn testified to such and included it in her statements.
he claimed to have called his father back a couple of times ?
Why is this surprising? He wanted them to believe the call got cut off midstream thus pretended he called back to try to clarify things. Calling back is something one would be apt to do under the circumstances.
Why if he was trying to create a siege situation ( as claimed ) did he not mention a shot being fired .
Claiming to hear shots fired would give the police reason to go in right away.
Subsequently he told certain people he thinks he heard a scuffle taking place or shot fired before the phone went dead. It is rather obvious why he didn't say that at trial though. Saying he heard shots would mean he should have called police instantly. He admitted he didn't call police instantly he testified that at first he didn't think it was an urgent situation and that only after thinking about it a while did he realize it was urgent. Saying he heard a shot fired certainly would not jive with this testimony.
Why did he "make up" a story about looking through a phone book ?
He didn't make it up he actually did look through the phone book. Whether he did so in order to try to slow down police response or did so by accident because 999 would occur to someone who is in an emergency situation but he was not actually in an emergency situation so he had a brain fart and didn't think of 999 is anyone's guess.
Why did he not make sure he knew the times of the calls?
That would look pretty bad if he wrote down on a piece of paper the time he made up receiving a call from Nevill, the time he called police and a fictional time he called Julie. No one would do such a thing. Particularly since he knew police could not get the times from the phone company so he was free to make up whatever he desired.
Why did he get in a muddle about whether he called Julie before the police ? If Julie was part of the alibi you think he would have got the order and the times right?
He had his lies straight at first- he was consistent in his claim that he called Julie after police. A month later he was interviewed 4 days in a row. On his first day he forgot and accidentally told the truth when he was interviewed by Taff Jones. When DS Jones interviewed him he prepped himself more and reverted to his prior lie. Then Jones nailed him and he said he wanted to see what he wrote in his statement. He wanted to read his statement in order to refresh his memory of his lies but Jones refused to show him. So he simply stated he could no longer remember and deferred to what he put in his statement.
Why did he think the police would be able to trace the call?
Obviously he didn't. If he knew they could trace the time of calls then lying about calling Julie afterwards would be pointless. His lying demonstrates he didn't think they could get a written record proving the times of any calls. He told police he thought they could tell just to try to fool them into thinking he didn't realize they would not be able to tell if a call had been made or not because if he knew then it would be easy to make the call up.
In fact that is why he wanted police to pick him up . He wanted them to see he was at his house. Since they wouldn't he made sure they arrived first. Since phone records proved useless they could think he called police from WHF then walked outside and waited for police and just pretend he called from his place and drove there after calling.
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If the call from Neville was fake to provide an alibi it was planned - so what are your ideas for why in his plan -
he claimed to have called his father back a couple of times ? To give credence to the call ending abruptlly and him trying to find out more information
Why if he was trying to create a siege situation ( as claimed ) did he not mention a shot being fired . He didn't need to - he mentioned guns and his sister having 'gone crazy'.
Why did he "make up" a story about looking through a phone book? Maybe he didn't make up a story, maybe he did actually look the number of the station up.
Why did he not make sure he knew the times of the calls? In order to cross all of the t's he would need to think he might (at some point) be a suspect. Jeremy didn't think he would be a suspect.
Why did he get in a muddle about whether he called Julie before the police ? If Julie was part of the alibi you think he would have got the order and the times right? Because he got caught out.
Why did he think the police would be able to trace the call? I think he knew they couldn't.
Criminals get caught because their plans weren't infallible - Jeremy was no exception.
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Another thing I learnt Jeremy asked the police to go in nearly as soon as they arrived . So the whole theory of him "creating" a siege situation to stop them going in was not exactly true.
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Another thing I learnt Jeremy asked the police to go in nearly as soon as they arrived . So the whole theory of him "creating" a siege situation to stop them going in was not exactly true.
Don't forget he also told them Sheila was armed. It doesn't take a genius to work out that two unarmed police officers aren't going to beat the door down to a house in which there is an armed assailant.
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Don't forget he also told them Sheila was armed. It doesn't take a genius to work out that two unarmed police officers aren't going to beat the door down to a house in which there is an armed assailant.
Crazy with a gun can mean a lot of things she could have been threatening to commit suicide or just waving it about. If the police thought it that serious they should not have arrived and approached the house before back up arrived .
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Crazy with a gun can mean a lot of things she could have been threatening to commit suicide or just waving it about. If the police thought it that serious they should not have arrived and approached the house before back up arrived .
When someone says to me there is a person who has Schizophrenia going crazy and has a gun that says to me they are having a psychotic episode while holding a gun which obviously is not a good thing!
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Crazy with a gun can mean a lot of things she could have been threatening to commit suicide or just waving it about. If the police thought it that serious they should not have arrived and approached the house before back up arrived .
And what would have been the reaction to them sitting outside like a pair of BillyNoMates until the boys with the guns arrived. What would have been the point of them being there?
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As soon as guns are mentioned to the police,there is automatically a back-up team from the firearms section. Or should be.
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As soon as guns are mentioned to the police,there is automatically a back-up team from the firearms section. Or should be.
Talking about what "should" be won't in any way, alter what was, which is all we can discuss.
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Talking about what "should" be won't in any way, alter what was, which is all we can discuss.
Just sayin'.
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As soon as guns are mentioned to the police,there is automatically a back-up team from the firearms section. Or should be.
The Dickinson report explains the delay.
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When someone says to me there is a person who has Schizophrenia going crazy and has a gun that says to me they are having a psychotic episode while holding a gun which obviously is not a good thing!
No I am not saying it is a good thing and the police explained why they did not go in - but they did seem to admit they were putting themselves and Jeremy at risk by approaching the house in the first place. What I was saying that I knew he had asked them later to go in because they were al the family he had - I did not realise he had asked them as soon as he got there.
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He wanted to speak to his father,Jan.
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No I am not saying it is a good thing and the police explained why they did not go in - but they did seem to admit they were putting themselves and Jeremy at risk by approaching the house in the first place. What I was saying that I knew he had asked them later to go in because they were al the family he had - I did not realise he had asked them as soon as he got there.
He didn't ask them to go in as soon as he got there. They approached the house with him but were scared that if they knocked she would come out and shoot them. They asked Jeremy if he thought he could speak to her to calm her down and he said she hated him and would be even more apt to shoot if she saw him. So at that they really chickened out and went to call for armed support.
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He didn't ask them to go in as soon as he got there. They approached the house with him but were scared that if they knocked she would come out and shoot them. They asked Jeremy if he thought he could speak to her to calm her down and he said she hated him and would be even more apt to shoot if she saw him. So at that they really chickened out and went to call for armed support.
great first error in the book then that means I can query everything in later chapters. . funny it states that this fact is backed up by police statements. and hose words above are not strictly accurate - you have added some bits for affect I think. I don't recall the bit where he said she would be more likely to shoot- can you tell me the source of that bit?
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( there's some fireworks going off at the back and they're like incendiary bombs going off ::) Awful !!
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great first error in the book then that means I can query everything in later chapters. . funny it states that this fact is backed up by police statements. and hose words above are not strictly accurate - you have added some bits for affect I think. I don't recall the bit where he said she would be more likely to shoot- can you tell me the source of that bit?
We have the police statements. He didn't beg anyone to do squat for hours. That is why you actually want to read the statements instead of simply going with how someone characterizes a statement.
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( there's some fireworks going off at the back and they're like incendiary bombs going off ::) Awful !!
Hello lookout
I feel so sorry for animals they are so terrified of the bangs and hide anywhere they can.
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Hello lookout
I feel so sorry for animals they are so terrified of the bangs and hide anywhere they can.
Hi Susan,I know.One of my cats is hiding under my bed I think so I've had to put the volume up on the " Strictly ".
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Hi Susan,I know.One of my cats is hiding under my bed I think so I've had to put the volume up on the " Strictly ".
Wow forgot Strictly will tune in and have a wee look.
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Hello lookout
I feel so sorry for animals they are so terrified of the bangs and hide anywhere they can.
Nothing seems to phase my two wicked kitties, they are sleeping for once, no curtain climbing tonight ;D
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Nothing seems to phase my two wicked kitties, they are sleeping for once, no curtain climbing tonight ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Nothing seems to phase my two wicked kitties, they are sleeping for once, no curtain climbing tonight ;D
Maggie are you sure maybe you should check down the loo hahaha
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Nothing seems to phase my two wicked kitties, they are sleeping for once, no curtain climbing tonight ;D
Maggie are you sure maybe you should check down the loo hahaha
That's a thought susan, one is missing ;D
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On top of the curtain rail/pelmet ?
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On top of the curtain rail/pelmet ?
No, the curtains are still hanging so no sign of him there. ;D Thing he's kipping somewhere and getting his strength up before him and his mate start wrecking the place again. :'( :'(
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We have the police statements. He didn't beg anyone to do squat for hours. That is why you actually want to read the statements instead of simply going with how someone characterizes a statement.
no the author refers to the words of the officers about why they did not do what he asked . it is not a charactised statement .She has source numbers through the book. The sources may not be official statements but they are the words of the officers.
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On top of the curtain rail/pelmet ?
He's just turned up, what d'you do with a kitten who's determined to sit on your keyboard? :'(
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He's just turned up, what d'you do with a kitten who's determined to sit on your keyboard? :'(
Put him on a chair which is high enough for him to sit in front of it then he can learn to play it.
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Put him on a chair which is high enough for him to sit in front of it then he can learn to play it.
I meant the keyboard of my lappy Jane, we are having a tussle over the keys but he's just dropped off with his head on the @ . ;D
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I meant the keyboard of my lappy Jane, we are having a tussle over the keys but he's just dropped off with his head on the @ . ;D
Ooops :)) Well, he might be trying to send a post.
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Ooops :)) Well, he might be trying to send a post.
He may have all the answers. :-X
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He may have all the answers. :-X
Let's hope it'll make more sense that some we're asked to believe, eh?
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no the author refers to the words of the officers about why they did not do what he asked . it is not a charactised statement .She has source numbers through the book. The sources may not be official statements but they are the words of the officers.
The author is providing their own interpretation not stating something that the police did.
Saxby statement he didn't speak to Jeremy:
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,3136.0.html
Myall statement:
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,3130.0.html
Bews statement:
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,3132.msg261614.html
Both of them basically say the same thing that they asked Jeremy questions they don't note him asking them to do anything.
Myall trial testimony about his interaction with Jeremy:
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(: don't shoot the messenger - And I have read their statements .
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(: don't shoot the messenger - And I have read their statements .
The whole point is that just because someone makes a certain characterization that doesn't make it true. This site is full of documents for us to read so that we don't have to listen to someone else's characterization of them.
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The whole point is that just because someone makes a certain characterization that doesn't make it true. This site is full of documents for us to read so that we don't have to listen to someone else's characterization of them.
like I said it was not a characterisation . It was some of the officers talking about what happened. Not the author.
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like I said it was not a characterisation . It was some of the officers talking about what happened. Not the author.
It contains exact quotes and says exactly who said them? If not then it is simply the author characterizing the documents we read.
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Now find the document where it states that Lesley ( BT operator ) closes the line at 07.47 which had been left open at WHF-----------last dial number 999 !!
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It contains exact quotes and says exactly who said them? If not then it is simply the author characterizing the documents we read.
yes it does . Not that it is important in the overall picture of guilt innocence . I will try and find the section and the words .
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Now find the document where it states that Lesley ( BT operator ) closes the line at 07.47 which had been left open at WHF-----------last dial number 999 !!
They couldn't tell which number had been dialled Lookout.
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They couldn't tell which number had been dialled Lookout.
They could when the line was left open as it was the emergency one according to Lesley.
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They could when the line was left open as it was the emergency one according to Lesley.
The telephone company found the phone engaged when they checked it at 3:40. They were asked by 999 to break into the line and establish a direct link to the 999 control room. That direct link prevented the phone from being able to be used from that point forward to either make calls or receive calls. Even if the phone was hung up the link remained and picking up a phone would result in contact with the 999 center alone. The raid team hung up prior to clearing the entire house. They let people know they hung it up and that the phone company could be told to remove the direct link to 999. Once the link was removed the phone could be used again to both make calls and receive them.
A worker(s) had to sit there for hours just listening to the line in case anything important could be heard. Imagine how boring that must have been...
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Yes------------last re-dial-999.
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The said notes were obviously " not available " at trial or he wouldn't have gone to prison.
In Shakespeare's words this was all " Much Ado About Nothing " just to " bring a case to court and convict an innocent man ",because EP could !!
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The telephone company found the phone engaged when they checked it at 3:40. They were asked by 999 to break into the line and establish a direct link to the 999 control room. That direct link prevented the phone from being able to be used from that point forward to either make calls or receive calls. Even if the phone was hung up the link remained and picking up a phone would result in contact with the 999 center alone. The raid team hung up prior to clearing the entire house. They let people know they hung it up and that the phone company could be told to remove the direct link to 999. Once the link was removed the phone could be used again to both make calls and receive them.
A worker(s) had to sit there for hours just listening to the line in case anything important could be heard. Imagine how boring that must have been...
Glad you answered that - I don't know how many times this issue has been discussed and explained but still it comes back with the same incorrect claims.
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Glad you answered that - I don't know how many times this issue has been discussed and explained but still it comes back with the same incorrect claims.
I think they can be called lies by now, IMO of course.
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Jan I have thought that Sheila may have been on the double bed with June and Ralph in Sheila's room but what puzzles me the beds in there do not look slept in although AE did say she was surprised the other bed (not Sheila's) was made up ready for sleeping in. As you have quoted none of us know what happened we can only speculate and that includes Adam.
Here is the post suggesting Sheila was in bed with June and Neville.
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If Sheila was in the main bedroom that night, I think she would have been there to sleep - either because June was worried about her (as per the call to Pam) or she wanted to be nearer the twins. I find it hard to believe there was any 'bible reading' and if she did sleep there, it was simply for convenience.
This is a response to Susan's post.
There is no suggestion here from Caroline that Neville was in another bedroom.
Caroline has informed me today (weeks later) Neville was supposed to be in another room.
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Here is the post suggesting Sheila was in bed with June and Neville.
No you are not reading it correctly .
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There is no suggestion here that Neville was in another bedroom.
No caroline came to the conclusion that this was a possibility because Nevilles Slippers were in Sheilas room . Work it out.
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Do you not comprehend relationships within a family ? You say Jeremy had not spoken to his mother for years - but he was a regular visitor to the farmhouse and a share holder in their businesses at age 24.
June helped out Sheila all the time - but yes they had their UPS and DOWNs - that is what happens in families some times . Colin describes happy family times and unhappy family times - I think that is quite normal . Colin is someone who knew the family and if there is a book you should read perhaps that is one that might give you some insight.
If Sheila was depressed while she was in the house then perhaps she did turn to her parents? Perhaps she found them controlling ? Perhaps she found her mother interfering and judgemental at times but there are happy family photos as well. Nothing is so black and white.
This is a reply to me after I said I thought it strange that Sheila would sleep with her mother and father. Suggesting I am wrong and don't comprehend family relationships.
This is supporting the idea that Sheila slept with Neville and June.
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This is a reply to me after I said I thought it strange that Sheila would sleep with her mother and father. Suggesting I am wrong and don't comprehend family relationships.
This is supporting the idea that Sheila slept with Neville and June.
WHERE exactly does it support the idea that Sheila slept with Nevill and June?
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Here is the post suggesting Sheila was in bed with June and Neville.
Adam
sorry for missing out a comma after June what my post actually said that Sheila may have been on the bed with June, and Ralph in Sheila's room I apologise as the post does read as you were suggesting but not meant that way
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I am locking this thread while I remove some posts. Thank you