Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Adam on June 05, 2015, 05:58:PM
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Sheila as the murderer stayed alive several more hours after she killed everyone. Movements in windows, conversation logs, two bodies in the kitchen, apparent wet blood etc.
Why did she wait so long to take her own life ?
If her aim was to commit murder/suicide, why stay alive for so long afterwards ? There was no reason.
Or maybe her aim was to just to kill everyone else and stay alive. So why didn't she give herself up when the police arrived. Or make a run for it straight after the massacre ?
The crime scene shows it was not a hostage situation. So Sheila was not staying alive inside WHF with everyone else. Neville, June, Daniel and Nicholas had died in quick succession before the police arrived. Why not Sheila ?
If she was alive for so long, why hide from view ? There was no point hiding.
Wouldn't it be more realistic if Jeremy had insinuated Sheila and just gone down the line that she had killed herself before him and the police arrived ? The conversations and two body claims have never been credible.
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No reason, no point... that's how it seems to a normal mind but not to a delusional one.
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Jeremy and his supporters seem to be trying too hard, saying Sheila was alive right up until the police entered WHF.
Jeremy says it was murder/suicide. If Sheila was crazy enough to do this, then why not kill herself straight after everyone else ?
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well if your planing to kill yourself time isnt really that important.
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Jeremy and his supporters seem to be trying too hard, saying Sheila was alive right up until the police entered WHF.
Jeremy says it was murder/suicide. If Sheila was crazy enough to do this, then why not kill herself straight after everyone else ?
I have no idea Adam, what has that got to do with anything?
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Jeremy and his supporters seem to be trying too hard, saying Sheila was alive right up until the police entered WHF.
Jeremy says it was murder/suicide. If Sheila was crazy enough to do this, then why not kill herself straight after everyone else ?
Sometimes you see that. People kill their children, wife/husband - and then lose the courage when it comes to themselves and they do not kill themselves at all even though they claim that was the plan. Why is that? And why do some wait?
Btw, I am not claiming that Sheila waited long to commit suicide. We can clearly see that the blood has cracked and dried on her face, so she must have been dead for a while - I hate all the myths and manipulations, I only want the truth.
I don´t believe she was found in the kitchen, I think she was shot/shot herself where she was found, no evidence of anything else.
She might have still been alive when Police and Jeremy arrived, they waited outside for many, many hours before entering the house. There could have been movement in the window, it could have been Sheila, but it could also have been Crispy jumping to the window sill and back down. Who knows?
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Sometimes you see that. People kill their children, wife/husband - and then lose the courage when it comes to themselves and they do not kill themselves at all even though they claim that was the plan. Why is that? And why do some wait?
Btw, I am not claiming that Sheila waited long to commit suicide. We can clearly see that the blood has cracked and dried on her face, so she must have been dead for a while - I hate all the myths and manipulations, I only want the truth.
I don´t believe she was found in the kitchen, I think she was shot/shot herself where she was found, no evidence of anything else.
She might have still been alive when Police and Jeremy arrived, they waited outside for many, many hours before entering the house. There could have been movement in the window, it could have been Sheila, but it could also have been Crispy jumping to the window sill and back down. Who knows?
The suggestion it could have been Crispy is a good thought, Alias and certainly a possibility.
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adam your assuming she had planned to kill herself and it wasnt a spur of the moment thing.
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Jeremy has obviously played the percentage game.
Sheila being alive for as long as possible after the police arrive shows she is the killer.
Trying to give the impression on the night and over the last 30 years that Sheila was alive inside WHF is the right move. But no one has ever questioned why she stayed alive right up until the police entered WHF, according to Jeremy.
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Jeremy has obviously played the percentage game.
Sheila being alive for as long as possible after the police arrive shows she is the killer.
Trying to give the impression on the night and over the last 30 years that Sheila was alive inside WHF is the right move. But no one has ever questioned why she stayed alive right up until the police entered WHF, according to Jeremy.
Sometimes I wonder why you ask those questions you do. You always end up answering with your own interpretation and you have absolutely no interest in any other input. Why ask then?
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The other problem is attempting to show Sheila was alive inside WHF makes the campaign for freedom look silly.
Trick of the light, conversations, bodies in the kitchen are all poor attempts.
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There is nothing in the court COA appeal document about Sheila being alive while everyone was outside.
But similar to Neville's call to Chelmsford police station, it makes great news.
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The other problem is attempting to show Sheila was alive inside WHF makes the campaign for freedom look silly.
Trick of the light, conversations, bodies in the kitchen are all poor attempts.
No it doesn't.
if JB is innocent he does not know what went on in the house anymore than you do. so of course it is human nature in order to free himself to try and grasp on to any small clue about what the truth is.
And BTW the officer was worried enough about the movement at the window to retreat very quickly.
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Sometimes I wonder why you ask those questions you do. You always end up answering with your own interpretation and you have absolutely no interest in any other input. Why ask then?
You are so right he has absolutely no interest in the answers what so ever - which is why he is incapable of debate.
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Sheila as the murderer stayed alive several more hours after she killed everyone. Movements in windows, conversation logs, two bodies in the kitchen, apparent wet blood etc.
Why did she wait so long to take her own life ?
If her aim was to commit murder/suicide, why stay alive for so long afterwards ? There was no reason.
Or maybe her aim was to just to kill everyone else and stay alive. So why didn't she give herself up when the police arrived. Or make a run for it straight after the massacre ?
The crime scene shows it was not a hostage situation. So Sheila was not staying alive inside WHF with everyone else. Neville, June, Daniel and Nicholas had died in quick succession before the police arrived. Why not Sheila ?
If she was alive for so long, why hide from view ? There was no point hiding.
Wouldn't it be more realistic if Jeremy had insinuated Sheila and just gone down the line that she had killed herself before him and the police arrived ? The conversations and two body claims have never been credible.
Most of those who support Jeremy seem to believe Sheila killed herself rather quickly. They don't assert she was in conversations with police or shot by police in the kitchen...
There are a minority of liars who assert she was speaking with police and they dishonestly use a log entry which states police communicated to those in the house but no one responded. It states as plain as day no response was received from those in the house so it is a known lie they are advancing. The people they manage to fool with this are people who are extremely ignorant of the facts and evidence and are thus unaware that the entry states no one responded.
Likewise there are a minority who assert she was in the kitchen and moved. The body reported in the kitchen prior to entry was Nevill which was mistakenly reported as an old woman. If the claims had been true that would be indicative of June not Sheila so June should be the one they are claiming was also in the kitchen with Nevill. There is no blood evidence to support another victim in the kitchen no eyewitness testimony to support such and moving a body to upstairs makes zero sense. Thus most also reject this nonsense. Again those actually fooled by this babble are people who don't know much about the evidence and facts.
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No it doesn't.
if JB is innocent he does not know what went on in the house anymore than you do. so of course it is human nature in order to free himself to try and grasp on to any small clue about what the truth is.
And BTW the officer was worried enough about the movement at the window to retreat very quickly.
well if he knew what went on or cliamed he would undoubtedly be guilty.
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Most of those who support Jeremy seem to believe Sheila killed herself rather quickly. They don't assert she was in conversations with police or shot by police in the kitchen...
There are a minority of liars who assert she was speaking with police and they dishonestly use a log entry which states police communicated to those in the house but no one responded. It states as plain as day no response was received from those in the house so it is a known lie they are advancing. The people they manage to fool with this are people who are extremely ignorant of the facts and evidence and are thus unaware that the entry states no one responded.
Likewise there are a minority who assert she was in the kitchen and moved. The body reported in the kitchen prior to entry was Nevill which was mistakenly reported as an old woman. If the claims had been true that would be indicative of June not Sheila so June should be the one they are claiming was also in the kitchen with Nevill. There is no blood evidence to support another victim in the kitchen no eyewitness testimony to support such and moving a body to upstairs makes zero sense. Thus most also reject this nonsense. Again those actually fooled by this babble are people who don't know much about the evidence and facts.
The OS is saying Sheila was alive right up until the police moved in. It has been agreed on another thread that Jeremy has involvement with the OS.
As mentioned Jeremy is playing the percentage game. Trying to throw up lots of examples that Sheila was alive right up until the police moved in. There is no proof to back any of them up and they are not credible examples.
He has never said why Sheila would keep herself alive for hours after killing everyone else.
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Reasons why Sheila would stay alive for hours after killing her family:
She planned to kill everyone but not herself. But changed her mind hours later, just as the police moved in.
I can't think of any other reason.
If her plan was to commit murder/suicide, which supporters claim, then she would have killed herself straight after everyone else.
She was crazy, committed and brave enough to kill two adults and two children. So wouldn't have hesitated to kill herself afterwards.
If she didn't plan to kill herself why didn't she just give herself up when the police arrived and tried to communicate with her ?
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The OS actually says Sheila was alive in the kitchen when the police broke in. She had shot herself once. She then went upstairs and shot herself again in the main bedroom.
The police did not see her move upstairs, and in the embarrassment decided to frame Jeremy.
Why did Sheila go back upstairs to shoot herself a second time ? Did she not bring the gun downstairs with her ?
If she wanted to commit suicide why have such a long gap between the first and second shots ? She had the courage to fire the first shot. And there was no vertical blood down Sheila.
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The OS actually says Sheila was alive in the kitchen when the police broke in. She had shot herself once. She then went upstairs and shot herself again in the main bedroom.
The police did not see her move upstairs, and in the embarresment decided to frame Jeremy.
Why did Sheila go back upstairs to shoot herself a second time ? Did she not bring the gun downstairs with her ?
If she wanted to commit suicide why have such a long gap between the first and second shots ? She had the courage to fire the first shot. And there was no vertical blood down Sheila.
I don't think there's any blueprint for how you are supposed to act after you've just killed four members of your family, you can't expect her to act rationally after that
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I don't think there's any blueprint for how you are supposed to act after you've just killed four members of your family, you can't expect her to act rationally after that
Yes Sheila deciding to commit murder/suicide and then waiting hours before killing herself is not logical.
So it must be she decided to act all scatty after ruthlessly killing men, women and children. Conveniently giving Jeremy the impression she was still alive inside WHF. For several hours.
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Yes Sheila deciding to commit murder/suicide and then waiting hours before killing herself is not logical.
So it must be she decided to act all scatty after ruthlessly killing men, women and children. Conveniently giving Jeremy the impression she was still alive inside WHF. For several hours.
If Sheila killed the family I doubt any recognisable logic was involved, Adam.
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I don't think there's any blueprint for how you are supposed to act after you've just killed four members of your family, you can't expect her to act rationally after that
You're right, there is no blueprint, but people expect Jeremy to have carried out the murders to some kind of Ninja standard. Having thought everything through and anticipation the every move of all the family. All the 'I's' and 'T's' dotted - swoop in and then swoop out with no mistakes having never killed 5 people before. Hardly likely, even if he had been planning it for 5 years!!
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Yes Sheila deciding to commit murder/suicide and then waiting hours before killing herself is not logical.
None of it is logical, how can you expect someone to act in a certain way when they have killed four people?
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If Sheila killed the family I doubt any recognisable logic was involved, Adam.
But she carefully left the signs of Jeremy's story for the police to find.
Phone off the hook (to corroborate the call/calls - which interestingly would have to have been left off the hook TWICE is Nevill also called the police). And the gun neatly placed on her body, bible close by "Sheila has gone crazy, she's got the gun".
Those things seem 'logically' placed to me!!
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You're right, there is no blueprint, but people expect Jeremy to have carried out the murders to some kind of Ninja standard. Having thought everything through and anticipation the every move of all the family. All the 'I's' and 'T's' dotted - swoop in and then swoop out with no mistakes having never killed 5 people before. Hardly likely, even if he had been planning it for 5 years!!
I agree, in such a situation there is absolutely no point in planning anything, imo the gunman would be almost as out of control as the victims. Crawling through a window in the dark, into the unknown to kill 3 healthy adults with a vermin rifle, involves so much risk and foolhardiness it's almost impossible to contemplate imo.
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But she carefully left the signs of Jeremy's story for the police to find.
Phone off the hook (to corroborate the call/calls - which interestingly would have to have been left off the hook TWICE is Nevill also called the police). And the gun neatly placed on her body, bible close by "Sheila has gone crazy, she's got the gun".
Those things seem 'logically' placed to me!!
I have never accepted there was a call to the police by Neville, doesn't ring true to me. I' don't believe the rifle would have landed on her body like that if she had killed herself but would anyone? Surely not? Surely that was like leaving a note saying this is staged? As did the bible....... just seems so naive and amateur but also I cannot understand why it would be staged by the police either or why they would. :-\
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My recent thread shows it was most probably Jeremy who saw the 'trick of the light'.
It was also Jeremy who ( decades later) brought up the conversation log and two bodies theory. The OS saying Sheila went upstairs and shot herself again after the police entered WHF.
None of this is backed up by the police, although they agree they looked at a window and said there was 'a trick of the light'.
What has never been discussed is that it is more likely for Sheila to have killed herself straight after killing men, women and children.
If she was not planning to kill herself, then she would give up to the police. Or let the police find her alive.
Sheila staying alive for several hours then committing suicide as the police entered WHF is the least likely scenario. But the most convenient for Jeremy.
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I agree, in such a situation there is absolutely no point in planning anything, imo the gunman would be almost as out of control as the victims. Crawling through a window in the dark, into the unknown to kill 3 healthy adults with a vermin rifle, involves so much risk and foolhardiness it's almost impossible to contemplate imo.
For you and I (and hopefully the rest of the board), it would be hard to contemplate BUT we aren't of the mind to kill off the family and inherit for an easier life. Had the phone NOT been off the hook, I would have been more inclined to give the call a little credence. However, It's obvious Jeremy left it off the hook to give weight to the call. He is now pushing the 'call from Nevill to police' idea but why would Nevill leave the phone off the hook TWICE?
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My recent thread shows it was most probably Jeremy who saw the 'trick of the light'.
It was also Jeremy who ( decades later) brought up the conversation log and two bodies theory. The OS saying Sheila went upstairs and shot herself again after the police entered WHF.
None of this is backed up by the police, although they agree they looked at a window and said there was 'a trick of the light'.
What has never been discussed is that it is more likely for Sheila to have killed herself straight after killing men, women and children.
If she was not planning to kill herself, then she would give up to the police. Or let the police find her alive.
Sheila staying alive for several hours then committing suicide as the police entered WHF is the least likely scenario. But the most convenient for Jeremy.
If Sheila was alive, she would have been heard from the operator who listened into the open line. They only heard a dog barking.
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No it doesn't.
if JB is innocent he does not know what went on in the house anymore than you do. so of course it is human nature in order to free himself to try and grasp on to any small clue about what the truth is.
And BTW the officer was worried enough about the movement at the window to retreat very quickly.
As Jan says Jeremy in order to free himself is going 'to grasp at any small clue to find out what the truth is'.
You can say that again.
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I agree, in such a situation there is absolutely no point in planning anything, imo the gunman would be almost as out of control as the victims. Crawling through a window in the dark, into the unknown to kill 3 healthy adults with a vermin rifle, involves so much risk and foolhardiness it's almost impossible to contemplate imo.
Maggie I think a crime of such magnitude would need a degree of planning Jeremy was use to climbing through windows and he was not going into the unknown he had been there earlier he knew the habits of the family and had he been caught coming through the window he could have come up with an excuse for doing so. Just my opinion of course :) He would expect them to be sleeping and he always had the advantage he was holding a loaded rifle which maybe for vermin but is a lethal weapon.
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I agree, in such a situation there is absolutely no point in planning anything, imo the gunman would be almost as out of control as the victims. Crawling through a window in the dark, into the unknown to kill 3 healthy adults with a vermin rifle, involves so much risk and foolhardiness it's almost impossible to contemplate imo.
I agree,Maggie.Imagine how emotionally drained anyone would be ? Seeing and smelling death and staring into the face of it all. I'm sorry,but you'd HAVE to be so very sick in the mind to have carried that out as even the vision of it all would disturb you for the rest of your life.
Even hardened police officers today would have to be counselled,especially as two little children were involved. You'd never get over it.
It most definitely would have affected Jeremy in some way if he'd done it. Flash-backs,sleep-deprivation,etc,there are all manner of tell-tale signs which WOULD have been picked up by prison officers.
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Maggie I think a crime of such magnitude would need a degree of planning Jeremy was use to climbing through windows and he was not going into the unknown he had been there earlier he knew the habits of the family and had he been caught coming through the window he could have come up with an excuse for doing so. Just my opinion of course :) He would expect them to be sleeping and he always had the advantage he was holding a loaded rifle which maybe for vermin but is a lethal weapon.
I can't argue with what you say except it was a slim advantage and the whole thing was fraught with difficulties, 'what ifs' and 'maybes'. Imo. :-\
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I agree,Maggie.Imagine how emotionally drained anyone would be ? Seeing and smelling death and staring into the face of it all. I'm sorry,but you'd HAVE to be so very sick in the mind to have carried that out as even the vision of it all would disturb you for the rest of your life.
Even hardened police officers today would have to be counselled,especially as two little children were involved. You'd never get over it.
It most definitely would have affected Jeremy in some way if he'd done it. Flash-backs,sleep-deprivation,etc,there are all manner of tell-tale signs which WOULD have been picked up by prison officers.
Cannabis, champagne and lobsters helped recover.
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For you and I (and hopefully the rest of the board), it would be hard to contemplate BUT we aren't of the mind to kill off the family and inherit for an easier life. Had the phone NOT been off the hook, I would have been more inclined to give the call a little credence. However, It's obvious Jeremy left it off the hook to give weight to the call. He is now pushing the 'call from Nevill to police' idea but why would Nevill leave the phone off the hook TWICE?
It's highly unlikely that he would. I do see your argument.
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Cannabis, champagne and lobsters helped recover.
For God's sake !! ::) Typical.
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Cannabis, champagne and lobsters helped recover.
Adam, I agree with Lookout and most people on the forum. JB would have to be severely disordered and psychopathic to carry out such a horrendous crime, so a very important question is just that and we can argue, guess and feel convinced but unless I knew absolutely and definitely that he is I cannot accept without question that he physically carried out that crime.
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I agree,Maggie.Imagine how emotionally drained anyone would be ? Seeing and smelling death and staring into the face of it all. I'm sorry,but you'd HAVE to be so very sick in the mind to have carried that out as even the vision of it all would disturb you for the rest of your life.
Even hardened police officers today would have to be counselled,especially as two little children were involved. You'd never get over it.
It most definitely would have affected Jeremy in some way if he'd done it. Flash-backs,sleep-deprivation,etc,there are all manner of tell-tale signs which WOULD have been picked up by prison officers.
If he's guilty, he's a psychopath and none of the above would apply. Psychopaths explain things away and make excuses for what they have done to reconcile, what they don't feel is sorry or empathetic. What's important to Jeremy now, is getting away with it and he can continue for the rest of his life because he has nothing to lose
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I can't argue with what you say except it was a slim advantage and the whole thing was fraught with difficulties, 'what ifs' and 'maybes'. Imo. :-\
Maggie if Sheila killed her family we have the same "what ifs" and "maybes" it is never ending and the sad thing is we will never know for certain.
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Adam, I agree with Lookout and most people on the forum. JB would have to be severely disordered and psychopathic to carry out such a horrendous crime, so a very important question is just that and we can argue, guess and feel convinced but unless I knew absolutely and definitely that he is I cannot accept without question that he physically carried out that crime.
Then perhaps he should be tested by some independent psychiatrist and not someone working for the defence?
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Maggie,believe you me,and in all honesty,if Jeremy had had a history of depression,then I'd have said,without fear of contradiction,that he would have been the killer.
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Maggie,believe you me,and in all honesty,if Jeremy had had a history of depression,then I'd have said,without fear of contradiction,that he would have been the killer.
What's depression got to do with being a psychopath? ;D ;D ;D
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Adam, I agree with Lookout and most people on the forum. JB would have to be severely disordered and psychopathic to carry out such a horrendous crime, so a very important question is just that and we can argue, guess and feel convinced but unless I knew absolutely and definitely that he is I cannot accept without question that he physically carried out that crime.
I know you will agree with Lookout, as you are a supporter.
Do you believe Sheila stayed alive for several hours after everyone else was killed ?
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I know you will agree with Lookout, as you are a supporter.
Do you believe Sheila stayed alive for several hours after everyone else was killed ?
I agree with Lookouts post, I don't agree with everything Lookout posts. I am not a 'supporter' I think about others arguments and my own opinions as well, I simply am not sure either way.
I have no definite idea whether Sheila stayed alive for several hours, killed herself straight after or was killed by JB. I just meant that if Sheila carried out the murders she would have been in a psychotic mental state therefore what appeared logical to her would not to most other people.
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I agree with Lookouts post, I don't agree with everything Lookout posts. I am not a 'supporter' I think about others arguments and my own opinions as well, I simply am not sure either way.
I have no definite idea whether Sheila stayed alive for several hours, killed herself straight after or was killed by JB. I just meant that if Sheila carried out the murders she would have been in a psychotic mental state therefore what appeared logical to her would not to most other people.
And yet the scene told a 'logical' story. ???
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Then perhaps he should be tested by some independent psychiatrist and not someone working for the defence?
I agree.
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And yet the scene told a 'logical' story. ???
It's so gauche, I don't know, part of the problem for me is that there are too many uncertainties. No doubt I'd make a rubbish detective. :'(
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I agree with Lookouts post, I don't agree with everything Lookout posts. I am not a 'supporter' I think about others arguments and my own opinions as well, I simply am not sure either way.
I have no definite idea whether Sheila stayed alive for several hours, killed herself straight after or was killed by JB. I just meant that if Sheila carried out the murders she would have been in a psychotic mental state therefore what appeared logical to her would not to most other people.
Obviously all guilters believe Sheila had been dead several hours.
It is perfectly acceptable for supporters to also believe Sheila had killed herself before anyone arrived. It is only Jeremy and the OS who are bringing up wild claims about Sheila being alive when the police moved in.
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It's so gauche, I don't know, part of the problem for me is that there are too many uncertainties. No doubt I'd make a rubbish detective. :'(
Maggie I agree with what you say but things that worry me is why was Sheila so clean and the phone calls :'( if Sheila did shoot herself why do it next to her Mother she was not close to her and as Colin said she would have died with her wee boys :(. I still keep thinking of the wallet incident and we do not know for sure if he was in the house previously and did not need to climb in through a window.
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It's so gauche, I don't know, part of the problem for me is that there are too many uncertainties. No doubt I'd make a rubbish detective. :'(
Well, to be fair, we are looking through info posted on a 'pro Bamber' forum. I imagine that it's hard not to post info that is weighted in favour of Jeremy. The problem for me, is that much of it flies in the face of what is being claimed on the OS and often Jeremy himself.
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Maggie I agree with what you say but things that worry me is why was Sheila so clean and the phone calls :'( if Sheila did shoot herself why do it next to her Mother she was not close to her and as Colin said she would have died with her wee boys :(. I still keep thinking of the wallet incident and we do not know for sure if he was in the house previously and did not need to climb in through a window.
Personally, I think he was already in the house - I think he came back and I think it was him who brought home the trailer, not Nevill.
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Personally, I think he was already in the house - I think he came back and I think it was him who brought home the trailer, not Nevill.
Did he hide under the sofa ?
How did he phone Julie ?
Can't see a problem with him cycling back to WHF on June's bike he had taken. It was a quick, easy journey and no one would see him.
Then getting through an already loosened or opened bathroom window.
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Obviously all guilters believe Sheila had been dead several hours.
It is perfectly acceptable for supporters to also believe Sheila had killed herself before anyone arrived. It is only Jeremy and the OS who are bringing up wild claims about Sheila being alive when the police moved in.
I have never said I believe Sheila was alive when the police moved in. What's your point?
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Personally, I think he was already in the house - I think he came back and I think it was him who brought home the trailer, not Nevill.
Caroline
I remember you posting this theory early on and it makes more sense to me as he would not be going into any "unknowns" he could pick the right time where he would not be challenged.
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Did he hide under the sofa ?
How did he phone Julie ?
Can't see a problem with him cycling back to WHF on June's bike he had taken. It was a quick, easy journey and no one would see him.
Then getting through an already loosened or opened bathroom window.
Adam why would he need to hide anywhere. He phoned Julie after he had murdered his family when he arrived back at his own home on foot yes leaving through the window.
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Maggie I agree with what you say but things that worry me is why was Sheila so clean and the phone calls :'( if Sheila did shoot herself why do it next to her Mother she was not close to her and as Colin said she would have died with her wee boys :(. I still keep thinking of the wallet incident and we do not know for sure if he was in the house previously and did not need to climb in through a window.
Susan, I I have never been convinced about Nevill's phone call to the police, it doesn't ring true to me but if you're desperate you could convince yourself it happened. We may think Sheila would have killed herself with her boys because that's the logical answer but Sheila wouldn't have been in a logical frame of mind, surely?
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Personally, I think he was already in the house - I think he came back and I think it was him who brought home the trailer, not Nevill.
I find the idea he was already in the house more believable and have always thought myself it was far more of a possibility than rambling through fields in the pitch black and climbing through windows in the pitch black with dogs barking.
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I have never said I believe Sheila was alive when the police moved in. What's your point?
It's a discussion board.
If everyone agrees that Sheila was dead before everyone arrived, that is a major move in the right direction.
There is no evidence she was alive. Just fanciful claims by Jeremy/the OS.
It seems there is no reason she would stay alive for so along. As well as hide from view and make no noises. Before amazingly walk upstairs and commit suicide after the police move in. The only reason given is that there is no set rule on how one would act while in a 'crazy' state.
If we are all in agreement that Sheila was dead before the police arrive, there is one thing that is established - Jeremy is grasping at straws.
The next thing to look at is did the condition of Sheila show her to be the killer ?
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Adam why would he need to hide anywhere. He phoned Julie after he had murdered his family when he arrived back at his own home on foot yes leaving through the window.
Don't you ever question any part of the windows theory, Adam?
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Adam why would he need to hide anywhere. He phoned Julie after he had murdered his family when he arrived back at his own home on foot yes leaving through the window.
He phoned Julie at 10pm as well.
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Personally, I think he was already in the house - I think he came back and I think it was him who brought home the trailer, not Nevill.
I do remember questioning about the trailer when I first read it. It didn't seem to make sense to me that he would leave his father to bring in the last trailer at that time of night after a long day but then we are constantly told how lazy and spoiled he was.
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Caroline
I remember you posting this theory early on and it makes more sense to me as he would not be going into any "unknowns" he could pick the right time where he would not be challenged.
And 'any noises' wouldn't cause a reaction. I think he was supposed to stay in the other bed in Sheila's room - which is why Nevill's slippers were in there. However, he had no intention of sleeping, he watched the TV programmes that he mentioned (he mentioned them out of the blue in his interview the following day - there was no need other than to bolster an alibi!!). The programmes ended after he said he went to bed - because he didn't go to bed.
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It's a discussion board.
If everyone agrees that Sheila was dead before everyone arrived, that is a major move in the right direction.
There is no evidence she was alive. Just fanciful claims by Jeremy/the OS.
It seems there is no reason she would stay alive for so along. As well as hide from view and make no noises. Before amazingly walk upstairs and commit suicide after the police move in. The only reason given is that there is no set rule on how one would act while in a 'crazy' state.
If we are all in agreement that Sheila was dead before the police arrive, there is one thing that is established - Jeremy is grasping at straws.
The next thing to look at is did the condition of Sheila show her to be the killer ?
It doesn't prove anything Adam, this isn't a game of Cluedo, we still wouldn't know definitely that Sheila was dead before the police arrived because we all think so. Surely it should be the other way round?
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Don't you ever question any part of the windows theory, Adam?
Well I gave 17 sources that the window could be bang locked from outside. Good sources as well.
The bathroom window had been loosened with a hack saw. Jeremy admitted doing this, although said it was after the massacre. He may have opened the bathroom window an inch at the last supper in preparation for his return.
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I do remember questioning about the trailer when I first read it. It didn't seem to make sense to me that he would leave his father to bring in the last trailer at that time of night after a long day but then we are constantly told how lazy and spoiled he was.
I can't see Nevill heading out to the fields around 10pm when he was usually in bed at that time. It doesn't make any sense.
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What excuse would Jeremy have made to want to stay the night at the farm? It was already full of people plus he lived nearby and had a car.
Are there any reports that Jeremy had stayed the night at the farm after he moved to Goldhanger?
I have said this before, but I find this theory quite convoluted and too unlikely to have happened.
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Well I gave 17 sources that the window could be bang locked from outside. Good sources as well.
The bathroom window had been loosened with a hack saw. Jeremy admitted doing this, although said it was after the massacre. He may have opened the bathroom window an inch at the last supper.
None of your 17 sources proved anything to me Adam, sorry. I don't believe he or anyone could bang the window closed.
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What excuse would Jeremy have made to want to stay the night at the farm? It was already full of people plus he lived nearby and had a car.
Are there any reports that Jeremy had stayed the night at the farm after he moved to Goldhanger?
I have said this before, but I find this theory quite convoluted and too unlikely to have happened.
He wouldn't need to make an excuse, I could stay at my parents house any time I wanted - didn't need a formal invite. It might be convoluted for you, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen and it makes perfect sense.
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He phoned Julie at 10pm as well.
Who said he called her from Goldhanger? Just Jeremy!
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And 'any noises' wouldn't cause a reaction. I think he was supposed to stay in the other bed in Sheila's room - which is why Nevill's slippers were in there. However, he had no intention of sleeping, he watched the TV programmes that he mentioned (he mentioned them out of the blue in his interview the following day - there was no need other than to bolster an alibi!!). The programmes ended after he said he went to bed - because he didn't go to bed.
Caroline that makes good sense to me and I remember reading in a statement of AE's how surprised she was that the other bed in Sheila's room was made up ready for sleeping in.
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Who said he called her from Goldhanger? Just Jeremy!
Caroline that is another good point he could have phoned her from WHF.
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And 'any noises' wouldn't cause a reaction. I think he was supposed to stay in the other bed in Sheila's room - which is why Nevill's slippers were in there. However, he had no intention of sleeping, he watched the TV programmes that he mentioned (he mentioned them out of the blue in his interview the following day - there was no need other than to bolster an alibi!!). The programmes ended after he said he went to bed - because he didn't go to bed.
I can see your argument but would he share a bedroom with Sheila? Seems a bit unlikely but I see your point about the slippers. :-\
He may have stayed there sometimes because he was having a very early start due to harvesting.....
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I have never seen a statement from anyone saying they saw his car parked outside - only Jeremy saying that someone would have noticed if it wasn't there. Why would they? he didn't get home until around 10pm (allegedly). People have their curtains shut by then and would have no idea if he was home or not. We only have his word that he ever left WHF.
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None of your 17 sources proved anything to me Adam, sorry. I don't believe he or anyone could bang the window closed.
Quite right to.
Banging a window so a catch falls into place. Only 17 sources. Jeremy must be released.
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Caroline that is another good point he could have phoned her from WHF.
Yes, he could have done, more possibilities......... :'(
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I can see your argument but would he share a bedroom with Sheila? Seems a bit unlikely but I see your point about the slippers. :-\
He may have stayed there sometimes because he was having a very early start due to harvesting.....
I don't see why not, they weren't in the same bed and were brother and sister - but Jeremy had no intention of sleeping - anywhere.
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Caroline that makes good sense to me and I remember reading in a statement of AE's how surprised she was that the other bed in Sheila's room was made up ready for sleeping in.
Quite! ;)
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Who said he called her from Goldhanger? Just Jeremy!
Wouldn't someone at WHF hear him, if he was trying to hide ?
The Foakes's heard Jeremy drive off.
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I don't know why people try to over complicate things.
It is clear he took June's bike just before the massacre so he could cycle there.
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I have never seen a statement from anyone saying they saw his car parked outside - only Jeremy saying that someone would have noticed if it wasn't there. Why would they? he didn't get home until around 10pm (allegedly). People have their curtains shut by then and would have no idea if he was home or not. We only have his word that he ever left WHF.
Caroline could it be possible that he took his car home after the murders and did not walk. Do we know which room Ralph was sleeping in could Sheila have been in her Mothers room and Ralph in Sheila's room with Jeremy. Can we be sure that Ralph was sitting down when he was shot. Maybe I am talking rubbish again :'(
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Wouldn't someone at WHF hear him, if he was trying to hide ?
The Foakes's heard Jeremy drive off.
Why would he be hiding? Think you've missed the point. Why would they hear him drive off? Was he driving a tank?
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I have never seen a statement from anyone saying they saw his car parked outside - only Jeremy saying that someone would have noticed if it wasn't there. Why would they? he didn't get home until around 10pm (allegedly). People have their curtains shut by then and would have no idea if he was home or not. We only have his word that he ever left WHF.
I am sure I've read somewhere that his neighbours gave a statement they heard him come home that evening and drive off in the morning. He parked outside his cottage attached to theirs, it was August a bedroom window was probably open and the cottages were tiny.
Have to go out now, speak later.
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Caroline could it be possible that he took his car home after the murders and did not walk. Do we know which room Ralph was sleeping in could Sheila have been in her Mothers room and Ralph in Sheila's room with Jeremy. Can we be sure that Ralph was sitting down when he was shot. Maybe I am talking rubbish again :'(
I have suggested this before and it would make sense why some of Nevill's blood was found outside Sheila's room and not in the mian bedroom and why Sheila was found in the main bedroom on the floor at the other side of the bed. Yes, he could have driven home after the murders, left his car off road out of sight and then made the call to Julie and the police. then drove slowly back to WHF.
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Why would he be hiding? Think you've missed the point. Why would they hear him drive off? Was he driving a tank?
Caroline hahaha that is so funny tank indeed ;D ;D ;D
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Nevill could have slept in "Sheila´s" room occasionally when there were no visitors. That woud be the reason the bed was made up. Besides Sheila´s things were all over that bed, she used it as storage for her clothes, toiletries and makeup. It didn´t look ready to be slept in.
Do people really think that Jeremy would have slippers in the house - or that he would use Nevill´s?
On the one hand, we are made to believe that Jeremy had a horrible relationship with his parents and Sheila, yet he would be hanging around their house just like that?
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I am sure I've read somewhere that his neighbours gave a statement they heard him come home that evening and drive off in the morning. He parked outside his cottage attached to theirs, it was August a bedroom window was probably open and the cottages were tiny.
Have to go out now, speak later.
I have never seen such a statement, it would surely be here if there were one?
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Why would he be hiding? Think you've missed the point. Why would they hear him drive off? Was he driving a tank?
I thought he was hiding at WHF before getting up and killing everyone.
Or did Jeremy ask if he could stay the night ? Ahhh.
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I have suggested this before and it would make sense why some of Nevill's blood was found outside Sheila's room and not in the mian bedroom and why Sheila was found in the main bedroom on the floor at the other side of the bed. Yes, he could have driven home after the murders, left his car off road out of sight and then made the call to Julie and the police. then drove slowly back to WHF.
Caroline that would explain why we could not see any blood on Ralph's side of the bed I am starting to think about this very seriously now and it explains so much.
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Nevill could have slept in "Sheila´s" room occasionally when there were no visitors. That woud be the reason the bed was made up. Besides Sheila´s things were all over that bed, she used it as storage for her clothes, toiletries and makeup. It didn´t look ready to be slept in.
Do people really think that Jeremy would have slippers in the house - or that he would use Nevill´s?
On the one hand, we are made to believe that Jeremy had a horrible relationship with his parents and Sheila, yet he would be hanging around their house just like that?
For what reason would he have to sleep there when there were NO visitors? Of course her stuff was all over the bed, he couldn't actually sleep in it. If Nevill was also sleeping in that room he could have used them himself. Nevill's blood outside Sheila's room but none in the main bedroom and Sheila found on the floor of his side of the bed and you find it hard to believe?
Jeremy said himself he was having supper with them, so he was hanging out with them - he is the one that paints a picture that all was rosy.
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Why would he be hiding? Think you've missed the point. Why would they hear him drive off? Was he driving a tank?
No he was driving a car. The Foakes's heard him drive off.
There is no reason for them to lie. He drove home and cycled back. Simple.
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It is in Jeremy's interests to drive back home.
The Foakes's heard him drive off around 10am. This supports Jeremy.
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For what reason would he have to sleep there when there were NO visitors? Of course her stuff was all over the bed, he couldn't actually sleep in it. If Nevill was also sleeping in that room he could have used them himself. Nevill's blood outside Sheila's room but none in the main bedroom and Sheila found on the floor of his side of the bed and you find it hard to believe?
Jeremy said himself he was having supper with them, so he was hanging out with them - he is the one that paints a picture that all was rosy.
Very.
The Bamber couple could have preferred to sleep in seperate bedrooms from time to time, that is not unusual, since Sheila occupied that room, Nevill could not sleep there.
The bullet casings are not explained in this scenario.
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I thought he was hiding at WHF before getting up and killing everyone.
Or did Jeremy ask if he could stay the night ? Ahhh.
Why would he need to ask? Can you honestly see Nevill heading out to the fields after 10pm to bring home the trailer when Jeremy was supposed to do it? More likely that Jeremy offered to get one last load and offer to stay the night and once everything is quiet put his plan into action. The dog isn't going to bark, perhaps he even locks it in the living room - no noise from breaking in and no one suspicious if he's walking about.
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Very.
The Bamber couple could have preferred to sleep in seperate bedrooms from time to time, that is not unusual, since Sheila occupied that room, Nevill could not sleep there.
The bullet casings are not explained in this scenario.
Not if she was sleeping with June. I have just said they were in separate rooms so why are you arguing that they couldn't have been? Casings can be moved.
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Why would he need to ask? Can you honestly see Nevill heading out to the fields after 10pm to bring home the trailer when Jeremy was supposed to do it? More likely that Jeremy offered to get one last load and offer to stay the night and once everything is quiet put his plan into action. The dog isn't going to bark, perhaps he even locks it in the living room - no noise from breaking in and no one suspicious if he's walking about.
It's amazing enough he had supper with everyone, considering the relationship he had with everyone. To stay the night is just ridiculous.
If the Foakes's heard him drive off at 3am, or his neighbours heard him arrive back at his cottage at 3am, it's all over for him.
Very risky for him. But with a simple solution.
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Not if she was sleeping with June. I have just said they were in separate rooms so why are you arguing that they couldn't have been? Casings can be moved.
See, now it gets really convoluted. Would Jeremy have moved the casings around after shooting everyone?
Also, Sheila and Nevill having to switch beds because Jeremy, who lived five minutes away, was to stay the night?
Was it Nevill who had not gone properly to bed, but just lain on the covers? Or was it Jeremy?
Why didn´t Sheila take her things off the other bed? Why didn´t she bring at least her toiletries into her parents´ bedroom if she was sleeping there?
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See, now it gets really convoluted. Would Jeremy have moved the casings around after shooting everyone?
Also, Sheila and Nevill having to switch beds because Jeremy, who lived five minutes away, was to stay the night?
Was it Nevill who had not gone properly to bed, but just lain on the covers? Or was it Jeremy?
Why didn´t Sheila take her things off the other bed? Why didn´t she bring at least her toiletries into her parents´ bedroom if she was sleeping there?
Sheila and Neville switching beds ? So June and Sheila were sharing a bed.
Would Jeremy have made everyone breakfast in bed if he had stayed the night ?
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Sheila and Neville switching beds ? So June and Sheila were sharing a bed.
Would Jeremy have made everyone breakfast in bed if he had stayed the night ?
I believe that is the theory.
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I believe that is the theory.
Where was Jeremy going to sleep ?
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Alias if this was the case Ralph would have used the bed (the one where it looked like somebody had laid on top of it) and Jeremy was to use the one with all the stuff on it.This would all explain i.e.what Sheila was doing in the main bedroom on Ralphs side of the bed on the floor and Ralph's blood outside Sheila's room, Ralph's slippers in there don't recall seeing any in the master bedroom. Would I be correct in saying Ralph liked a couple of drams before retiring if so that would make him sleep heavy.
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It's amazing enough he had supper with everyone, considering the relationship he had with everyone. To stay the night is just ridiculous.
If the Foakes's heard him drive off at 3am, or his neighbours heard him arrive back at his cottage at 3am, it's all over for him.
Very risky for him. But with a simple solution.
They didn't hear any commotion, they had no reason to hear him at 3am. The same could be said about him using the bike which is MUCH slower. If someone saw him, it's all over for him. His neighbours wouldn't hear him if he didn't drive the car all the way to his door.
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See, now it gets really convoluted. Would Jeremy have moved the casings around after shooting everyone?
Also, Sheila and Nevill having to switch beds because Jeremy, who lived five minutes away, was to stay the night?
Was it Nevill who had not gone properly to bed, but just lain on the covers? Or was it Jeremy?
Why didn´t Sheila take her things off the other bed? Why didn´t she bring at least her toiletries into her parents´ bedroom if she was sleeping there?
It's not convoluted at all, you're making t that way. However, now Jeremy only lives 5 minutes away? I'm not saying this did happen, I'm suggesting it COULD have. But at least you admit that the distance from WHF to Goldhanger is only 5 minutes away!!
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They didn't hear any commotion, they had no reason to hear him at 3am. The same could be said about him using the bike which is MUCH slower. If someone saw him, it's all over for him. His neighbours wouldn't hear him if he didn't drive the car all the way to his door.
No one would see him on the bike route. It passed no dwellings. It was three miles. He would not be concerned about slowness.
So he phoned the police and Julie at 3am. Asked the police to pick him up. Drove some of the way home, then turned around and drove back.
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Alias if this was the case Ralph would have used the bed (the one where it looked like somebody had laid on top of it) and Jeremy was to use the one with all the stuff on it.This would all explain i.e.what Sheila was doing in the main bedroom on Ralphs side of the bed on the floor and Ralph's blood outside Sheila's room, Ralph's slippers in there don't recall seeing any in the master bedroom. Would I be correct in saying Ralph liked a couple of drams before retiring if so that would make him sleep heavy.
I honestly think all this sounds so very, very unlikely and out of character for the Bambers.
Why would the slippers be by the bed Jeremy was supposed to sleep in?
Why was there no blood at all in "Sheila´s" room? Where was Nevill when he received the initial shots?
How about Sheila in the room, in the very same bed June was shot in? What would she have done? Jeremy had to "save her for last" to be able to stage her death as a suicide.
He would now have Nevill behind him, if you understand what I mean - or do you think he went to Sheila´s room first and "dealt with" Nevill and they ended up in the kitchen?'
A lot of things have to be explained for this to work out, I think.
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This case was made unnecessarily complex by the mismanagement of EP and their slipshod investigations as admitted by the TOP cop at the time,Mick Gradwell.
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It's not convoluted at all, you're making t that way. However, now Jeremy only lives 5 minutes away? I'm not saying this did happen, I'm suggesting it COULD have. But at least you admit that the distance from WHF to Goldhanger is only 5 minutes away!!
I don´t think I have said anything about the distance before - but it doesn´t take long by car, does it? I thougt that was established. 5 minutes might be too short a time though, but he did live very close by.
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I honestly think all this sounds so very, very unlikely and out of character for the Bambers.
Why would the slippers be by the bed Jeremy was supposed to sleep in?
Why was there no blood at all in "Sheila´s" room? Where was Nevill when he received the initial shots?
How about Sheila in the room, in the very same bed June was shot in? What would she have done? Jeremy had to "save her for last" to be able to stage her death as a suicide.
He would now have Nevill behind him, if you understand what I mean - or do you think he went to Sheila´s room first and "dealt with" Nevill and they ended up in the kitchen?'
A lot of things have to be explained for this to work out, I think.
Is it out of character for the Bambers? How would you know?
He didn't have to 'save Sheila for last' - why would that make a difference to the staging?
No one knows who was shot first, you can only guess but you're not happy with anything said yesterday because of noise or that Nevill would be dealt with first (even though that also applies to Sheila). The point I am making, is that there are various options and none of us can know what 'actually' happened - only one person knows and he's not telling!
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I don´t think I have said anything about the distance before - but it doesn´t take long by car, does it? I thougt that was established. 5 minutes might be too short a time though, but he did live very close by.
easy to get to, no matter how or on what he arrived in/on.
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Is it out of character for the Bambers? How would you know?
He didn't have to 'save Sheila for last' - why would that make a difference to the staging?
No one knows who was shot first, you can only guess but you're not happy with anything said yesterday because of noise or that Nevill would be dealt with first (even though that also applies to Sheila). The point I am making, is that there are various options and none of us can know what 'actually' happened - only one person knows and he's not telling!
Do you think it is all right for me to express my doubts?
Of course I don´t know if it was out of character, they just didn´t seem like touchy, feely people who would share beds with each other. Just my opinion.
So Jeremy shot and staged Sheila´s suicide while June and Nevill, or one of them, were still alive?
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A bicycle,wasn't it ??
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Do you think it is all right for me to express my doubts?
Of course I don´t know if it was out of character, they just didn´t seem like touchy, feely people who would share beds with each other. Just my opinion.
So Jeremy shot and staged Sheila´s suicide while June and Nevill, or one of them, were still alive?
Why would they be touchy feely in order to share a bed? It could simply have been for practical reasons.
He wouldn't have staged anything until they were ALL dead.
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Is it out of character for the Bambers? How would you know?
He didn't have to 'save Sheila for last' - why would that make a difference to the staging?
No one knows who was shot first, you can only guess but you're not happy with anything said yesterday because of noise or that Nevill would be dealt with first (even though that also applies to Sheila). The point I am making, is that there are various options and none of us can know what 'actually' happened - only one person knows and he's not telling!
Bamber wanted to commit the crime and get away with it.
Common sense directs what he would do in certain situations.
Attempting to kill Neville and June first is one common sense action.
The other is driving home as normal, then cycling back on the bike he had taken home with him, just before the massacre.
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Why would they be touchy feely in order to share a bed? It could simply have been for practical reasons.
He wouldn't have staged anything until they were ALL dead.
For a person who lived so close by - and about whom it is said, he didn´t get along with his family?
About Sheila, where then was she when she was shot? Where and in what state was June, and where and in what state was Nevill?
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I honestly think all this sounds so very, very unlikely and out of character for the Bambers.
Why would the slippers be by the bed Jeremy was supposed to sleep in?
Why was there no blood at all in "Sheila´s" room? Where was Nevill when he received the initial shots?
How about Sheila in the room, in the very same bed June was shot in? What would she have done? Jeremy had to "save her for last" to be able to stage her death as a suicide.
He would now have Nevill behind him, if you understand what I mean - or do you think he went to Sheila´s room first and "dealt with" Nevill and they ended up in the kitchen?'
A lot of things have to be explained for this to work out, I think.
Alias much has to be explained before anything is worked out. I am throwing ideas about how things could have happened not saying they did. The slippers were in that bedroom for Ralph none were found in his own bedroom. I suspect June and Sheila were shot before Ralph and he woke up by the nose and was shot as he came out of Sheila's bedroom then he ran downstairs and think we all have agreed what happened next. I can find many holes in this theory as I can all the others that have been posted on the forum. Jeremy could have used any excuse to stay over i.e. his electric was off his water Ralph would never find out he was lying because he would have been shot.
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Alias much has to be explained before anything is worked out. I am throwing ideas about how things could have happened not saying they did. The slippers were in that bedroom for Ralph none were found in his own bedroom. I suspect June and Sheila were shot before Ralph and he woke up by the nose and was shot as he came out of Sheila's bedroom then he ran downstairs and think we all have agreed what happened next. I can find many holes in this theory as I can all the others that have been posted on the forum. Jeremy could have used any excuse to stay over i.e. his electric was off his water Ralph would never find out he was lying because he would have been shot.
Jeremy would have taken a huge risk by shooting June and Sheila first - with Nevill waking up and entering the bedroom. A big risk.
He would also have to get up close to Sheila to deliver those contact shots to her neck.
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Jeremy would have taken a huge risk by shooting June and Sheila first - with Nevill waking up and entering the bedroom. A big risk.
He would also have to get up close to Sheila to deliver those contact shots to her neck.
Alias you are quite right and think I will go back to the drawing board :)
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Jeremy would have taken a huge risk by shooting June and Sheila first - with Nevill waking up and entering the bedroom. A big risk.
He would also have to get up close to Sheila to deliver those contact shots to her neck.
So would Sheila.
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Jeremy would have taken a huge risk by shooting June and Sheila first - with Nevill waking up and entering the bedroom. A big risk.
He would also have to get up close to Sheila to deliver those contact shots to her neck.
I agree.
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Jeremy would have taken a huge risk by shooting June and Sheila first - with Nevill waking up and entering the bedroom. A big risk.
He would also have to get up close to Sheila to deliver those contact shots to her neck.
Well yeah, that's the whole point from 30 years ago.
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So would Sheila.
Yes Sheila would be taking a risk shooting herself first.
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I agree.
Yes, for once we are in agreement! We have to celebrate - somehow! LOL
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Yes Sheila would be taking a risk shooting herself first.
Shooting June first and leaving Nevill alive! ::)
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Well yeah, that's the whole point from 30 years ago.
Mat this thread has made some progress, but as usual has gone backwards a bit.
Supporters are slowly accepting Sheila died before anyone arrived. Jeremy's attempts to convince that she was alive inside WHF until after the police went inside WHF are being dismissed.
Sadly posters are suggesting Jeremy stayed the night at WHF.
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Shooting June first and leaving Nevill alive! ::)
And what does Neville choose to do when June has been shot?
Call Jeremy.
Mat this thread has made some progress, but as usual has gone backwards a bit.
Supporters are slowly accepting Sheila died before anyone arrived. Jeremy's attempts that she was alive inside WHF until after the police arrived are being dismissed.
Sadly posters are suggesting Jeremy stayed the night at WHF.
This is what happens though, supporters argued this point STRONGLY 18 months ago, but now throw it out of the window and move onto something else. Doesn't seem genuine to me.
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And what does Neville choose to do when June has been shot?
Call Jeremy.
This is what happens though, supporters argued this point STRONGLY 18 months ago, but now throw it out of the window and move onto something else. Doesn't seem genuine to me.
Or he makes the second call to police and doesn't mention June had been shot! ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Or he makes the second call to police and doesn't mention June had been shot! ;D ;D ;D ;D
I'm guessing you don't buy it? ;D
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The fact that Sheila " died " before anyone arrived IS debateable---------as we DON'T know.Some say yes,some say no. What's the big deal,it's a debate where NOBODY is right ? We weren't there,simple as.
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Mat this thread has made some progress, but as usual has gone backwards a bit.
Supporters are slowly accepting Sheila died before anyone arrived. Jeremy's attempts to convince that she was alive inside WHF until after the police went inside WHF are being dismissed.
Sadly posters are suggesting Jeremy stayed the night at WHF.
Adam why is it sad that we have suggested he may have been planning to stay the night at WHF.
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The fact that Sheila " died " before anyone arrived IS debateable---------as we DON'T know.Some say yes,some say no. What's the big deal,it's a debate where NOBODY is right ? We weren't there,simple as.
Regardless of being there or not, someone is right because she was either dead (reality) or she wasn't (conspiracy theory) ;D ;D ;D
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Mat this thread has made some progress, but as usual has gone backwards a bit.
Supporters are slowly accepting Sheila died before anyone arrived. Jeremy's attempts to convince that she was alive inside WHF until after the police went inside WHF are being dismissed.
Sadly posters are suggesting Jeremy stayed the night at WHF.
I'm NOT accepting anything with this botched-up case.
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Mat this thread has made some progress, but as usual has gone backwards a bit.
Supporters are slowly accepting Sheila died before anyone arrived. Jeremy's attempts to convince that she was alive inside WHF until after the police went inside WHF are being dismissed.
Sadly posters are suggesting Jeremy stayed the night at WHF.
Prove he didn't!
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adam can i ask your qustion how long does the avererage person wait to commit suiced what is the normal waiting time to kill yourself.
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I'm guessing you don't buy it? ;D
Not even if it's on special offer!! ;D ;D
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The fact that Sheila " died " before anyone arrived IS debateable---------as we DON'T know.Some say yes,some say no. What's the big deal,it's a debate where NOBODY is right ? We weren't there,simple as.
Well we have to go by the evidence.
This shows Sheila did not kill anyone. There is no evidence of communication inside WHF after the police arrived.
So Sheila must have been dead before the police arrived.
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I'm NOT accepting anything with this botched-up case.
Me neither
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I'm NOT accepting anything with this botched-up case.
You've accepted Jeremy is innocent! Even in the face of all the evidence pointing to his guilt.
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You've accepted Jeremy is innocent! Even in the face of all the evidence pointing to his guilt.
I don't think that the case would appear to "botched" to people if they studied it a little better and KNEW the case.
Lookout you get so much wrong about the case, not even just tiny things, that it's no wonder the case appears botched to you. Bloody hell if I thought some of the things were true that you believe then I would think Bamber was innocent too!
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Prove he didn't!
Evidence.
Witnesses saw him drive off at 10pm.
The Foakes's didn't hear him drive off at 3am.
He brought over June's bike just before the massacre.
The police passed him on the way to WHF.
He asked the police to pick him up.
There are no road cameras showing him driving home at 3am.
No neighbours saw or heard him drive up to his cottage at 3am.
Julie's WS said he planned to cycle to WHF.
The prosecution successfully argued he cycled to WHF.
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I don't think that the case would appear to "botched" to people if they studied it a little better and KNEW the case.
Lookout you get so much wrong about the case, not even just tiny things, that it's no wonder the case appears botched to you. Bloody hell if I thought some of the things were true that you believe then I would think Bamber was innocent too!
They made some mistakes yes, but this was because Jeremy steered them to investigate it as a murder/suicide and they had no reason (initially) to think it was anything else.
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I don't think that the case would appear to "botched" to people if they studied it a little better and KNEW the case.
Lookout you get so much wrong about the case, not even just tiny things, that it's no wonder the case appears botched to you. Bloody hell if I thought some of the things were true that you believe then I would think Bamber was innocent too!
And you don't get things wrong ? Perfect,are you ? When I see an in-depth post about the case,from you,instead of you forever passing remarks about MY posts,then I'll tell YOU if you're wrong or not.
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Evidence.
Witnesses saw him drive off at 10pm. No one SAW him drive off However, he may have driven his car home and walked or cycled back to the trailer he left.
He brought over June's bike just before the massacre. So, doesn't mean he used it!
The police passed him on the way to WHF. And?
He asked the police to pick him up. And?
There are no road cameras showing him driving home at 3am. What cameras? Bit before the time of CCTV Adam ;D
No neighbours saw or heard him drive up to his cottage at 3am. And? Why would they at 3am?
Julie's WS said he planned to cycle to WHF. She also said he used a hitman!
The prosecution successfully argued he cycled to WHF. And?
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And you don't get things wrong ? Perfect,are you ? When I see an in-depth post about the case,from you,instead of you forever passing remarks about MY posts,then I'll tell YOU if you're wrong or not.
Not perfect no, certainly not. I post about the case every day, then you pop up - AE SAYS IN HER COLP... Neville had no top on because he was JUST out the shower!! ;D ;D Scratches on June?? Etc.. and it all turns out to be wrong.
I've corrected them - and you've never said I was right yet!
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Speed camera's came into existence before the massacre. It would only take one.
Mike's video of the journey to WHF goes on some busy roads.
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He drove home, then walked or cycled to the trailer he had just left. Then gone back to WHF to ask to stay the night ?
Has everyone gone mad ?
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Speed camera's came into existence before the massacre.
No they didn't, they came into existence much later
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Speed camera's came into existence before the massacre. It would only take one.
Mike's video of the journey to WHF goes on some busy roads.
Why would he be speeding? He would only be pictures if A. there were cameras installed and B. if he was speeding. It also depends which was Mike went!! Also, this wouldn't be the first time that Jeremy drove off in the huff not wanting to work late but there is nothing to say that THIS TIME he didn't come back and finish the job, in more than one respect!
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No they didn't, they came into existence much later
yes, I thought that was the case and they would only matter if someone was speeding anyway!!
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He drove home, then walked or cycled to the trailer he had just left. Then gone back to WHF to ask to stay the night ?
Has everyone gone mad ?
It's called 'original thought' Adam, you wouldn't know what that was f it came and bit you in the arse!
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Gatsometer BV, founded in 1958 by rallydriver Maurice Gatsonides, produced the 'Gatsometer' which was described as "a revolutionary speed-measuring device".[10] Developed initially for improving his race times,[citation needed] it was later marketed as police speed enforcement tool.[10] Gatsometer claim to have developed the first radar for use with road traffic in 1971, but this claim is undermined by evidence that radar detectors were already for sale in 1967.[10] Gatsometer BV produced the world's first mobile speed traffic camera in 1982.
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He drove home, then walked or cycled to the trailer he had just left. Then gone back to WHF to ask to stay the night ?
Has everyone gone mad ?
Adam what is wrong with that scenario after all Jeremy did not intend to go to bed at WHF and it would have been pre arranged that is why both beds were made up in Sheila's room remember AE's statement how surprised she was that the second bed was made up.
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It's called 'original thought' Adam, you wouldn't know what that was f it came and bit you in the arse!
Just use you're common sense.
You know he drove home at 10pm. Then cycled back around 2am.
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It's called 'original thought' Adam, you wouldn't know what that was f it came and bit you in the arse!
Hahaha Caroline he may know what it was if he sat on it ;D ;D ;D
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Gatsometer BV, founded in 1958 by rallydriver Maurice Gatsonides, produced the 'Gatsometer' which was described as "a revolutionary speed-measuring device".[10] Developed initially for improving his race times,[citation needed] it was later marketed as police speed enforcement tool.[10] Gatsometer claim to have developed the first radar for use with road traffic in 1971, but this claim is undermined by evidence that radar detectors were already for sale in 1967.[10] Gatsometer BV produced the world's first mobile speed traffic camera in 1982.
Was it installed on the route from GH to WHF Adam? No it wasn't ::) ::)
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Just use you're common sense.
You know he drove home at 10pm. Then cycled back around 2am.
Adam how do we know he drove home at 10 p.m. and cycled back at 2 a.m. he could have drove his car away from the farm and parked it.
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You've accepted Jeremy is innocent! Even in the face of all the evidence pointing to his guilt.
Yes I know I have and I'm sticking to that. It's how he got to be guilty is my own sticking point.
All evidence be damned.There was NONE, which for 10 months police knew,but in that 10 months,EP managed to cobble a case together albeit iffy but went ahead anyway and here we ALL are discussing just that or we wouldn't be here.
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Adam how do we know he drove home at 10 p.m. and cycled back at 2 a.m. he could have drove his car away from the farm and parked it.
Why ?
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Just use you're common sense.
You know he drove home at 10pm. Then cycled back around 2am.
I suggest you look up such a term before trying to apply it to your threads/posts and that you try and read things properly so people don't have to keep repeating them selves.
Like I said THIS ISN'T THE FIRST TIME JEREMY DROVE OFF IN THE HUFF - there is nothing to say he didn't return, being back the trailer (because someone did) and stayed the night. It's a possibility and another that adds weight to Jeremy's guilt. It doesn't mean it happened, but it doesn't mean it didn't.
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Why ?
Why not?
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Was it installed on the route from GH to WHF Adam? No it wasn't ::) ::)
Caroline I think the world's first mobile speed camera would have been installed on a quiet Country lane in Essex to catch speed merchants on their tractors ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I suggest you look up such a term before trying to apply it to your threads/posts and that you try and read things properly so people don't have to keep repeating them selves.
Like I said THIS ISN'T THE FIRST TIME JEREMY DROVE OFF IN THE HUFF - there is nothing to say he didn't return, being back the trailer (because someone did) and stayed the night. It's a possibility and another that adds weight to Jeremy's guilt. It doesn't mean it happened, but it doesn't mean it didn't.
The trailer does annoy me. It's something you picked up on that had gone un-noticed. I don't think Neville brought it back.
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Caroline I think the world's first mobile speed camera would have been installed on a quiet Country lane in Essex to catch speed merchants on their tractors ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Well, it's an idea spot - hang on - sorry, I mean it's the LAST PLACE anyone would think to install the FIRST speed camera!
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I suggest you look up such a term before trying to apply it to your threads/posts and that you try and read things properly so people don't have to keep repeating them selves.
Like I said THIS ISN'T THE FIRST TIME JEREMY DROVE OFF IN THE HUFF - there is nothing to say he didn't return, being back the trailer (because someone did) and stayed the night. It's a possibility and another that adds weight to Jeremy's guilt. It doesn't mean it happened, but it doesn't mean it didn't.
How do you know he drove off in a huff ?
The Foakes's said he drove off quickly. But that he always drove off quickly.
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The trailer does annoy me. It's something you picked up on that had gone un-noticed. I don't think Neville brought it back.
How about finding out if Neville brought the tractor back instead of doubting everything that's suggested.
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The trailer does annoy me. It's something you picked up on that had gone un-noticed. I don't think Neville brought it back.
It's odd because Jeremy seemed VERY reluctant to talk about the tractor he was in that day and only seemed willing to have the convo when he knew why Jones was asking. You have to ask why?
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Caroline I think the world's first mobile speed camera would have been installed on a quiet Country lane in Essex to catch speed merchants on their tractors ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
The massacre was three years after they were introduced. There were some busy roads.
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How do you know he drove off in a huff ?
The Foakes's said he drove off quickly. But that he always drove off quickly.
I didn't say he did! I said he MAY have done - but why drive of quickly when he drove back SLOWLY? The Foakes mention a previous incident where Jeremy didn't want to work overtime and just jumped into his car and drove him, leaving others to finish his work.
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I didn't say he did! I said he MAY have done - but why drive of quickly when he drove back SLOWLY? The Foakes mention a previous incident where Jeremy didn't want to work overtime and just jumped into his car and drove him, leaving others to finish his work.
I just chuckled. You know why he drove slowly to WHF.
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Let's not forget Ralph Neville who also worked late on the fields.I wonder if Jeremy remembers him still working after he'd left ? It was RN who then drove his tractor to Osea Park caravan site where he was staying , ( time ? )but why leave his campervan behind at WHF when he could have driven that back instead,or even stayed in it ? Wouldn't he have been the last to leave the premises ? Did he hear/see anything unusual ? Obviously not or we'd have heard.
It does state somewhere that after his supper,Neville went back out to the field again which could possibly have been after Jeremy had left. Which meant that Neville didn't go to bed at 10pm as someone had suggested.
Aside from that,a PC Wright, the coroners officerwho'd spent all day at the mortuary,was convinced that Sheila had been the killer because besides the scene suggesting that,he'd said that there was " evidence " to show that she was mentally unstable. Just what this " evidence " is,we don't as yet know,but chances are it could possibly come to light within the next submission.
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I just chuckled. You know why he drove slowly to WHF.
Bit weird! ???
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Adam why did Jeremy drive slowly to WHF?
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Let's not forget Ralph Neville who also worked late on the fields.I wonder if Jeremy remembers him still working after he'd left ? It was RN who then drove his tractor to Osea Park caravan site where he was staying , ( time ? )but why leave his campervan behind at WHF when he could have driven that back instead,or even stayed in it ? Wouldn't he have been the last to leave the premises ? Did he hear/see anything unusual ? Obviously not or we'd have heard.
It does state somewhere that after his supper,Neville went back out to the field again which could possibly have been after Jeremy had left. Which meant that Neville didn't go to bed at 10pm as someone had suggested.
Aside from that,a PC Wright, the coroners officerwho'd spent all day at the mortuary,was convinced that Sheila had been the killer because besides the scene suggesting that,he'd said that there was " evidence " to show that she was mentally unstable. Just what this " evidence " is,we don't as yet know,but chances are it could possibly come to light within the next submission.
You see Lookout, you're referring to TWO different things. Ralf Neviile did NOT drive Jeremy's tractor back to Osea, he wasn't even working with Jeremy that day. He drove the tractor he had been using after finishing up working in a field at Goldhanger (read his statement). No Jeremy doesn't remember his father working late and doesn't mention him helping him in the fields at all, in fact he clearly states that he doesn't know who brought the trailer back - but there it was! Colin stated that Nevill was usually in bed by 10pm so I don't know where you're getting the impression he was working late!
Evidence to show she was mentally unstable after being dead? I'd love to hear how he worked that one out. By the way lookout, where are you getting this from?
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http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,5442.msg236685.html#msg236685
For Susan.
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Gatsometer BV, founded in 1958 by rallydriver Maurice Gatsonides, produced the 'Gatsometer' which was described as "a revolutionary speed-measuring device".[10] Developed initially for improving his race times,[citation needed] it was later marketed as police speed enforcement tool.[10] Gatsometer claim to have developed the first radar for use with road traffic in 1971, but this claim is undermined by evidence that radar detectors were already for sale in 1967.[10] Gatsometer BV produced the world's first mobile speed traffic camera in 1982.
They may have produced it in 1982 but they weren't introduced onto British roads until 1992
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You see Lookout, you're referring to TWO different things. Ralf Neviile did NOT drive Jeremy's tractor back to Osea, he wasn't even working with Jeremy that day. He drove the tractor he had been using after finishing up working in a field at Goldhanger (read his statement). No Jeremy doesn't remember his father working late and doesn't mention him helping him in the fields at all, in fact he clearly states that he doesn't know who brought the trailer back - but there it was! Colin stated that Nevill was usually in bed by 10pm so I don't know where you're getting the impression he was working late!
Evidence to show she was mentally unstable after being dead? I'd love to hear how he worked that one out. By the way lookout, where are you getting this from?
The latter was from notes made by PC Wright,who'd arrived at the scene at 9am to find no rifle on the body of Sheila.
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The above comes under the heading " What Coroners officer ( PCWright ) told COLP in 1991.
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Also in his statement dated 24th September 1985.
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http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,5442.msg236685.html#msg236685
For Susan.
Adam thank you I now know what you are referring to :)
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The latter was from notes made by PC Wright,who'd arrived at the scene at 9am to find no rifle on the body of Sheila.
Where? On the forum? A book? The internet?
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The latter was from notes made by PC Wright,who'd arrived at the scene at 9am to find no rifle on the body of Sheila.
Never mind, I found it.
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The latter was from notes made by PC Wright,who'd arrived at the scene at 9am to find no rifle on the body of Sheila.
He may have ARRIVED at the scene at 9am but he clearly states that he was show around the house and viewed the bodies 'some while later'!
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Also in his statement dated 24th September 1985.
You mean the one in which he stated;
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He makes it clear he was there for a long while before being shown around the house and being shown the bodies. So what is your point? He clearly didn't view Sheila at 9am at all.
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You mean the one in which he stated;
This also shows that SOCO were collecting evidence and that people WERE NOT allowed to run around the scene while they were doing so - as some posters are fond of claiming. Wright was asked to wait until they had finished.
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Very different from the 1991 COLP notes. If you look under the heading of " What Coroners officer ( PCWright ) told COLP 1991,you'll find he said different,so which are you supposed to believe ?
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Very different from the 1991 COLP notes. If you look under the heading of " What Coroners officer ( PCWright ) told COLP 1991,you'll find he said different,so which are you supposed to believe ?
What is different?
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Very different from the 1991 COLP notes. If you look under the heading of " What Coroners officer ( PCWright ) told COLP 1991,you'll find he said different,so which are you supposed to believe ?
he didn't say different at all, he still said 'AFTER' 9am. He doesn't say what time but indicates it was 'sometime after'. Nothing sinister here at all.
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The gun having been removed isn't the same as Sheila was found with the gun across her chest. Collins didn't even see the gun at all and in somewhere else I read,the rifle was between June and Sheila,so whether this referred to it being on the floor between them or on the bed between them,it remains very very unclear.
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Very different from the 1991 COLP notes. If you look under the heading of " What Coroners officer ( PCWright ) told COLP 1991,you'll find he said different,so which are you supposed to believe ?
In 1991 was 5 years later. So 5 years later he said he didn't remember seeing the gun on the body. He also said he didn't remember seeing any of Sheila's wounds. This simply indicates he was not a reliable witness because he could not remember much 5 years later. In the meantime he was shown around the scene later not one of the initial responders- all of whom say the gun was on her body.
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In 1991 was 5 years later. So 5 years later he said he didn't remember seeing the gun on the body. He also said he didn't remember seeing any of Sheila's wounds. This simply indicates he was not a reliable witness because he could not remember much 5 years later. In the meantime he was shown around the scene later not one of the initial responders- all of whom say the gun was on her body.
I don't think there is anything sinister in this BUT I would have thought he could remember what he saw only 5 years later - it's not really something you would forget in a hurry. I certainly wouldn't. He should have been pulled up on the discrepancy.
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I don't think there is anything sinister in this BUT I would have thought he could remember what he saw only 5 years later - it's not really something you would forget in a hurry. I certainly wouldn't. He should have been pulled up on the discrepancy.
I agree Caroline, it's understandable to forget detail but should think the main pictures would be imprinted on your mind forever.
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I don't think there is anything sinister in this BUT I would have thought he could remember what he saw only 5 years later - it's not really something you would forget in a hurry. I certainly wouldn't. He should have been pulled up on the discrepancy.
Those were my exact thoughts when I read it. Didn´t want to comment on it because all I say is taken as combattive. :'(
But now you mention it, I absolutely agree, it´s a bit strange. You don´t see such a scene every day and you´d think one would remember it.
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I don't think there is anything sinister in this BUT I would have thought he could remember what he saw only 5 years later - it's not really something you would forget in a hurry. I certainly wouldn't. He should have been pulled up on the discrepancy.
Pulled up in what way? They asked him if he could remember how the body was found and he indicated in response to their questioning that he could not remember the bullet wounds or the gun being on her. They then had him write such down. when someone says they don't remember what else can you do? They could have told him to not record such in his statement or to lie in his statement and state he remembered such things but their objective was to get at what he remembered not to put down false things.
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Pulled up in what way? They asked him if he could remember how the body was found and he indicated in response to their questioning that he could not remember the bullet wounds or the gun being on her. They then had him write such down. when someone says they don't remember what else can you do? They could have told him to not record such in his statement or to lie in his statement and state he remembered such things but their objective was to get at what he remembered not to put down false things.
They should nave confronted him with what he had said previously. It would have been fine if he said he just didn't remember anything, however, that is not what he said. He said that he believed it had been removed. This isn't not remembering something, it's a different account. It was only 5 years previous and not something you're likely to forget. It's not that easy to explain away.
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Pulled up in what way? They asked him if he could remember how the body was found and he indicated in response to their questioning that he could not remember the bullet wounds or the gun being on her. They then had him write such down. when someone says they don't remember what else can you do? They could have told him to not record such in his statement or to lie in his statement and state he remembered such things but their objective was to get at what he remembered not to put down false things.
Stop trying to worm your way out of what's been blatantly contradicted.This is exactly how EP acted.
Between the notes and statements---------------nothing matches ! Fact.
It's details such as this which have been overlooked which tells me that they were all spinning, good style.
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Stop trying to worm your way out of what's been blatantly contradicted.This is exactly how EP acted.
Between the notes and statements---------------nothing matches ! Fact.
It's details such as this which have been overlooked which tells me that they were all spinning, good style.
Lets not get carried away Lookout ;D. I am willing to concede that there are some discrepancies but it's not true to say 'nothing matches'. Plus we don't have all of the statements and notes here. Given that Wright wasn't asked about the discrepancy, we don't know the reason. He may have had his OWN reason for it.
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Lets not get carried away Lookout ;D. I am willing to concede that there are some discrepancies but it's not true to say 'nothing matches'. Plus we don't have all of the statements and notes here. Given that Wright wasn't asked about the discrepancy, we don't know the reason. He may have had his OWN reason for it.
But still, it doesn't say he saw no rifle at 9am.
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Lets not get carried away Lookout ;D. I am willing to concede that there are some discrepancies but it's not true to say 'nothing matches'. Plus we don't have all of the statements and notes here. Given that Wright wasn't asked about the discrepancy, we don't know the reason. He may have had his OWN reason for it.
Caroline you've only to read EVERYONES notes against statements and they DON'T correspond.
These are the ones we've seen !
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They should nave confronted him with what he had said previously. It would have been fine if he said he just didn't remember anything, however, that is not what he said. He said that he believed it had been removed. This isn't not remembering something, it's a different account. It was only 5 years previous and not something you're likely to forget. It's not that easy to explain away.
They probably did. They likely asked him to try to think hard as to what he could remember about the location of the gun. There was no transcript made of his interview he was not interrogated under suspicion of wrongdoing. They told him to write up what he remembered they could not force him to write he remembered something he didn't without it amounting to improper coercion. The only way to know precisely what he said to the investigators and them said to him beyond telling him to record what he remembered would be by asking him or the men who questioned him.
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Caroline you've only to read EVERYONES notes against statements and they DON'T correspond.
These are the ones we've seen !
The members of the raid team who saw her body say the gun was on her. The men who immediately entered after to inspect the scene say the gun was on her. Dr Craig who declared her dead at 8:45 says the gun was on her.
Whether it was still on her later when Wright entered means nothing and he can't say for sure it wasn't. He didn't even remember seeing any gunshot wounds to her body.
Whether the gun was on her body or not is not even material it makes no real difference but police say it was and there is nothing to establish otherwise.
Since conspiracy theorists can't prove police lied about anything substantial they take nonsense like this and say the police lied about this and so we can't trust their claims about things that actually matter.
Such efforts simply smack of desperation.
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What was it that prompted PCWright to state that " there was evidence to show that she was mentally unstable ?"
Then he went on to say that there was " nothing to suggest that Jeremy Bamber was responsible". That as far as he,PCWright,was concerned,he was a well-balanced person.
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Caroline you've only to read EVERYONES notes against statements and they DON'T correspond.
These are the ones we've seen !
I have, many times.
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But still, it doesn't say he saw no rifle at 9am.
No, it doesn't. Perhaps he wasn't sure later what to say - after all, COLP was about investigating the police. Maybe he thought by the time he saw Sheila, the gun should have been removed. Perhaps he thought he helping someone?
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They probably did. They likely asked him to try to think hard as to what he could remember about the location of the gun. There was no transcript made of his interview he was not interrogated under suspicion of wrongdoing. They told him to write up what he remembered they could not force him to write he remembered something he didn't without it amounting to improper coercion. The only way to know precisely what he said to the investigators and them said to him beyond telling him to record what he remembered would be by asking him or the men who questioned him.
Yeah, maybe.
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What was it that prompted PCWright to state that " there was evidence to show that she was mentally unstable ?"
Then he went on to say that there was " nothing to suggest that Jeremy Bamber was responsible". That as far as he,PCWright,was concerned,he was a well-balanced person.
PC Wright wasn't/isn't qualified to comment on anyone's mental state and as he can't remember what he saw, he's not a very reliable witness.
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PC Wright wasn't/isn't qualified to comment on anyone's mental state and as he can't remember what he saw, he's not a very reliable witness.
You're telling me. Doesn't say much for him being a coroners officer does it ? Why did he say it ?
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You're telling me. Doesn't say much for him being a coroners officer does it ? Why did he say it ?
God knows.
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It would be good if the OS could say why Sheila waited so long to commit suicide. After murdering four other family members hours earlier. Waiting until the raid team entered.
Was there a medical explanation ? Or did she decide to commit suicide at the last second when the raid team entered. If she did not intend to commit suicide, she could have given herself up hours earlier.
I am sure the writers on the OS read this forum, it has hardly been amended in the last two years, although lots of questions have been asked.
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Because schizophrenics will only kill if provoked by feelings of persecution or delusions of such,at the time when things went wrong after supper,Sheila would have felt that everyone was against her and THAT was all which was needed to spark off a psychotic attack.
For as long as those feelings were with her,she was more than able to carry out those killings,even down to the children who she saw ( delusions ) as the " devils children ".
After the killings,her " aura " of provocation and persecution had abated so she'd have been left with a feeling that she'd finished the task that she'd set out to do. She may have then washed/bathed/showered then eaten, and latterly killed herself.
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Because schizophrenics will only kill if provoked by feelings of persecution or delusions of such,at the time when things went wrong after supper,Sheila would have felt that everyone was against her and THAT was all which was needed to spark off a psychotic attack.
For as long as those feelings were with her,she was more than able to carry out those killings,even down to the children who she saw ( delusions ) as the " devils children ".
After the killings,her " aura " of provocation and persecution had abated so she'd have been left with a feeling that she'd finished the task that she'd set out to do. She may have then washed/bathed/showered then eaten, and latterly killed herself.
She didn't kill anyone - she was murdered!
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She didn't kill anyone - she was murdered!
Prove it.
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Prove it.
You prove he didn't! A court has already convicted him - the onus is now on him to PROVE he didn't. What evidence exists to PROVE that he DIDN'T do it?
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You prove he didn't! A court has already convicted him - the onus is now on him to PROVE he didn't. What evidence exists to PROVE that he DIDN'T do it?
Because there was no forensic evidence for starters and police didn't suspect him until the relatives joined in with their contradictions that there was nothing wrong with Sheila's mental health. So who are the police going to believe ? A family,or a" stranger " to the family ?
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Because there was no forensic evidence for starters and police didn't suspect him until the relatives joined in with their contradictions that there was nothing wrong with Sheila's mental health. So who are the police going to believe ? A family,or a" stranger " to the family ?
The family didn't say there was nothing wrong with Sheila's mental health, they said she simply wasn't capable of committing the murders - especially as the weapon was a newly acquired semi- automatic rifle which she couldn't have been familiar with. Had Jeremy been able to pull of the grieving son/brother/uncle routine, hadn't bandied about his hatred of his family, knuckled down and at least TRIED to show an interest in the farm and didn't try to sell explicit pictures of his dead sister - he might have gotten away with it.
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Because there was no forensic evidence for starters and police didn't suspect him until the relatives joined in with their contradictions that there was nothing wrong with Sheila's mental health. So who are the police going to believe ? A family,or a" stranger " to the family ?
No...........and the reason was that Jeremy had a good couple of hours in which to brain wash the police about Sheila's mental state STARTING with the alleged call from his father in which it was supposedly said that Sheila -having only JUST come out of a psychiatric hospital- had gone mad. They saw, on entry to WHF, the picture that Jeremy had painted for them. It matters little that the family MAY have said there was nothing wrong with Sheila's mental health -they weren't there at the time, anyway- because the opposite could be easily confirmed.
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No...........and the reason was that Jeremy had a good couple of hours in which to brain wash the police about Sheila's mental state STARTING with the alleged call from his father in which it was supposedly said that Sheila -having only JUST come out of a psychiatric hospital- had gone mad. They saw, on entry to WHF, the picture that Jeremy had painted for them. It matters little that the family MAY have said there was nothing wrong with Sheila's mental health -they weren't there at the time, anyway- because the opposite could be easily confirmed.
Of course! the reason for the original path was down to Jeremy manipulating events.
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The thing is though,Jeremy had no idea of his sister's illness or even what she was capable of,which meant that he hadn't known what the psychiatrist had told CC,or he'd have really had a field day.It was only after,while in prison that he got to find out about her illness,through information which was gathered together for his first appeal.
As he told Eric Allison,he had no idea,nor did his parents ( although I imagine they kept a lot to themselves ) realise the extent of her illness and how she'd deteriorated in the 6 months leading up to the murders.
Jeremy hadn't known enough about Sheila to even contemplate placing any blame on her initially,so naturally it wouldn't sink in that she'd been so ill and he hadn't known,as it's been said that he first thought it was the raid team who shot his family.He WASN'T putting the blame on Sheila at all. Being innocent,he wouldn't have known what to think,as none of us would in the same position.
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The thing is though,Jeremy had no idea of his sister's illness or even what she was capable of,which meant that he hadn't known what the psychiatrist had told CC,or he'd have really had a field day.It was only after,while in prison that he got to find out about her illness,through information which was gathered together for his first appeal.
As he told Eric Allison,he had no idea,nor did his parents ( although I imagine they kept a lot to themselves ) realise the extent of her illness and how she'd deteriorated in the 6 months leading up to the murders.
Jeremy hadn't known enough about Sheila to even contemplate placing any blame on her initially,so naturally it wouldn't sink in that she'd been so ill and he hadn't known,as it's been said that he first thought it was the raid team who shot his family.He WASN'T putting the blame on Sheila at all. Being innocent,he wouldn't have known what to think,as none of us would in the same position.
That's only what Jeremy SAID Lookout, he knew enough to call her a 'nutter' while outside with police.
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The thing is though,Jeremy had no idea of his sister's illness or even what she was capable of,which meant that he hadn't known what the psychiatrist had told CC,or he'd have really had a field day.It was only after,while in prison that he got to find out about her illness,through information which was gathered together for his first appeal.
As he told Eric Allison,he had no idea,nor did his parents ( although I imagine they kept a lot to themselves ) realise the extent of her illness and how she'd deteriorated in the 6 months leading up to the murders.
Jeremy hadn't known enough about Sheila to even contemplate placing any blame on her initially,so naturally it wouldn't sink in that she'd been so ill and he hadn't known,as it's been said that he first thought it was the raid team who shot his family.He WASN'T putting the blame on Sheila at all. Being innocent,he wouldn't have known what to think,as none of us would in the same position.
His parents had no idea ?
Thought they would have some idea. They were Sheila's parents and were paying her medical bills.
Who sent Sheila to hospital, her parents or was it a self referral ? Suspect it was not a self referral, people often don't want to admit they need help.
So the parents knew a lot. But still invited her over to stay.
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That's only what Jeremy SAID Lookout, he knew enough to call her a 'nutter' while outside with police.
He,himself was using the language of a simpleton when he called his sister a " nutter ",because he was ignorant of her true illness. Haven't you heard of that word regularly used to describe some poor soul who is " different " to everyone else ? I've heard it used by the police force in describing some.
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People use words like that to bring themselves down to the same level to those who they're speaking to.
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He,himself was using the language of a simpleton when he called his sister a " nutter ",because he was ignorant of her true illness. Haven't you heard of that word regularly used to describe some poor soul who is " different " to everyone else ? I've heard it used by the police force in describing some.
Lookout, my brother was a schizophrenic and I would NEVER have called him a nutter!
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Lookout, my brother was a schizophrenic and I would NEVER have called him a nutter!
I DIDN'T say you would did I ? ::) Jeeze,you'd cause mayhem in an empty house.
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He,himself was using the language of a simpleton when he called his sister a " nutter ",because he was ignorant of her true illness. Haven't you heard of that word regularly used to describe some poor soul who is " different " to everyone else ? I've heard it used by the police force in describing some.
He seemed to know a lot.
After the massacre he said he was the only one who knew Sheila was 'going back to the nut house'.
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He seemed to know a lot.
After the massacre he said he was the only one who knew Sheila was 'going back to the nut house'.
FGS !! Those YOUR words ?
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The thing is though,Jeremy had no idea of his sister's illness or even what she was capable of,which meant that he hadn't known what the psychiatrist had told CC,or he'd have really had a field day.It was only after,while in prison that he got to find out about her illness,through information which was gathered together for his first appeal.
As he told Eric Allison,he had no idea,nor did his parents ( although I imagine they kept a lot to themselves ) realise the extent of her illness and how she'd deteriorated in the 6 months leading up to the murders.
Jeremy hadn't known enough about Sheila to even contemplate placing any blame on her initially,so naturally it wouldn't sink in that she'd been so ill and he hadn't known,as it's been said that he first thought it was the raid team who shot his family.He WASN'T putting the blame on Sheila at all. Being innocent,he wouldn't have known what to think,as none of us would in the same position.
He must have known that people don't spend weeks in psych hospitals for nothing, Lookout, however thick you try to paint him as being. It was he who told the police that she'd only just come out of one so he wasn't UNaware of the significance. He was giving implicit and subliminal messages -coupled with the alleged call from his father supposedly saying that she'd gone mad- that she was capable of murder.
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He must have known that people don't spend weeks in psych hospitals for nothing, Lookout, however thick you try to paint him as being. It was he who told the police that she'd only just come out of one so he wasn't UNaware of the significance. He was giving implicit and subliminal messages -coupled with the alleged call from his father supposedly saying that she'd gone mad- that she was capable of murder.
Painting a scene, a scene he couldn't have been part of if he was home in Goldganger answering a frantic call from his father at 3:10am.
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He must have known that people don't spend weeks in psych hospitals for nothing, Lookout, however thick you try to paint him as being. It was he who told the police that she'd only just come out of one so he wasn't UNaware of the significance. He was giving implicit and subliminal messages -coupled with the alleged call from his father supposedly saying that she'd gone mad- that she was capable of murder.
He wasn't aware of the true nature of her illness--------and neither was anyone else.
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He wasn't aware of the true nature of her illness--------and neither was anyone else.
And you are?
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And you are?
Since reading what Ferguson had to say,plus the medication she was taking ( sporadically ) YES.
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Read about Theresa Riggi,then tell me whether Sheila was capable or not.
This happened in 2010. A beautiful woman and her 3 equally beautiful children who she stabbed to death over a custody battle.
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Read about Theresa Riggi,then tell me whether Sheila was capable or not.
This happened in 2010. A beautiful woman and her 3 equally beautiful children who she stabbed to death over a custody battle.
Sad and tragic though her situation was, neither Theresa Riggi nor any OTHER woman has ANYTHING to do with Sheila. We know even less of their history -save what we read in papers- than we do of Sheila's.
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At least we have statements to get various pieces of information from,pertaining to Sheila and her at times,odd behaviour. The statement from Helen Grimster ( cousin ) stated that Sheila had told her that she'd contemplated suicide on more than one occasion,as she sat chain-smoking her " roll-ups ",which to Helen,smelled weird.?
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At least we have statements to get various pieces of information from,pertaining to Sheila and her at times,odd behaviour. The statement from Helen Grimster ( cousin ) stated that Sheila had told her that she'd contemplated suicide on more than one occasion,as she sat chain-smoking her " roll-ups ",which to Helen,smelled weird.?
We do indeed have a statement from Helen Grimster. What we don't have from her is an indication of how often she was in Sheila's company, ie where, in proximity to each other did they live, were they neighbours, were they in each others company daily, weekly, monthly on a regular basis OR were their meetings one off happenstances. The statement we have SEEMS to be from one meeting and one meeting only and MAY have been at a time when Sheila was up, down, sober, drunk or just plain reflective on the meaning of life!!!
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FGS !! Those YOUR words ?
No, he told Liz Rimmington.
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We do indeed have a statement from Helen Grimster. What we don't have from her is an indication of how often she was in Sheila's company, ie where, in proximity to each other did they live, were they neighbours, were they in each others company daily, weekly, monthly on a regular basis OR were their meetings one off happenstances. The statement we have SEEMS to be from one meeting and one meeting only and MAY have been at a time when Sheila was up, down, sober, drunk or just plain reflective on the meaning of life!!!
Hi April, Helen Grimster had this conversation with Sheila on 30th March 1985, she was visiting WHF at a time Sheila was also there Helen Grimster's mother was a cousin of June's I think.
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It was in the March of that year,1985,that Helen stayed there,and after that,didn't return again.
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Since reading what Ferguson had to say,plus the medication she was taking ( sporadically ) YES.
This is a prime example of how you distort reality. You consistently suggest she was not taking her medication and thus went crazy and killed everyone and committed suicide and in part rely on Ferguson. The actual statement from Ferguson notes she had been sporadically taking her medicine and as a result she relapsed so he took her off oral medication and put her on injections. She no longer took medication herself she was injected medication on a monthly basis by her doctor. She no longer had the ability to skip her medication because she didn't have to take it daily herself she was injected.
Her last injection was July 11, the injections lasted 6 weeks and thus only 3 passed at the time of her death thus the tox test found her medication in her system.
You and other supporters engage in this worthless deception. A further deception is to pretend that because Freddie was scared that this means she got violent during her episode though he expressly stated she never got violent with him or anyone else. He simply was in fear she would get violent.
Another worthless deception is to say that because she grew up on a farm that had shotguns this means she would know how to use all firearms of any kind- it doesn't even mean she would know how to use a shotgun let alone a firearm that functions much differently.
You have an agenda and to further that agenda you twist to pretend things are how you wish them to be instead of facing how they really are.
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This is a prime example of how you distort reality. You consistently suggest she was not taking her medication and thus went crazy and killed everyone and committed suicide and in part rely on Ferguson. The actual statement from Ferguson notes she had been sporadically taking her medicine and as a result she relapsed so he took her off oral medication and put her on injections. She no longer took medication herself she was injected medication on a monthly basis by her doctor. She no longer had the ability to skip her medication because she didn't have to take it daily herself she was injected.
Her last injection was July 11, the injections lasted 6 weeks and thus only 3 passed at the time of her death thus the tox test found her medication in her system.
You and other supporters engage in this worthless deception. A further deception is to pretend that because Freddie was scared that this means she got violent during her episode though he expressly stated she never got violent with him or anyone else. He simply was in fear she would get violent.
Another worthless deception is to say that because she grew up on a farm that had shotguns this means she would know how to use all firearms of any kind- it doesn't even mean she would know how to use a shotgun let alone a firearm that functions much differently.
You have an agenda and to further that agenda you twist to pretend things are how you wish them to be instead of facing how they really are.
And you're imagining things again. I don't have an agenda at all. Furthermore,I don't twist things because I've no need to.
Thank God I don't think how you do !!
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And you're imagining things again. I don't have an agenda at all. Furthermore,I don't twist things because I've no need to.
Thank God I don't think how you do !!
Scipio, Lookout looks after lots of cats.
She says Jeremy is innocent. Accept this as fact.
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Hi April, Helen Grimster had this conversation with Sheila on 30th March 1985, she was visiting WHF at a time Sheila was also there Helen Grimster's mother was a cousin of June's I think.
It was in the March of that year,1985,that Helen stayed there,and after that,didn't return again.
There's a discrepancy here, is there not? MAGGIE says -thanks for that, Maggie- that Helen was visiting. YOU say she was STAYING which, given that Sheila had only come out of hospital that week and was clearly at WHF to recuperate- I'd find it strange in the extreme if June had invited others to stay, too- so what we are left with are the possible musings of what Sheila, recovering from mental breakdown, so hardly likely to be holding vivacious conversations, said to another during a visit of a few hours. It's interesting to note that Helen says Sheila said she HAD (at some moment?) had thoughts of suicide, NOT that she was contemplating suicide.
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Scipio, Lookout looks after lots of cats.
She says Jeremy is innocent. Accept this as fact.
Adam have you ever thought of getting a cat lookout has two and they are so lucky to have her to look after them :)
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Adam have you ever thought of getting a cat lookout has two and they are so lucky to have her to look after them :)
Aww,Susan,thankyou. They've both had some Sunday dinner------mashed up with gravy. ;D ;D ;D
I didn't know whether to eat mine or jump over it.
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Aww,Susan,thankyou. They've both had some Sunday dinner------mashed up with gravy. ;D ;D ;D
I didn't know whether to eat mine or jump over it.
lookout maybe you should try Adam with Sunday dinner mashed up with gravy or maybe better jump over him ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Your little kitties are so lucky to have you caring for them ;D I have always judged people by the way they treat animals it is a good guide to who is a nice person or not so nice person.
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We do indeed have a statement from Helen Grimster. What we don't have from her is an indication of how often she was in Sheila's company, ie where, in proximity to each other did they live, were they neighbours, were they in each others company daily, weekly, monthly on a regular basis OR were their meetings one off happenstances. The statement we have SEEMS to be from one meeting and one meeting only and MAY have been at a time when Sheila was up, down, sober, drunk or just plain reflective on the meaning of life!!!
Helen Grimster's statement adds nothing to the body of knowledge. Sheila was talking to her about her past including being bullied during school, how she contemplated suicide before her treatment and how she was on medication. Ferguson already noted she told him she contemplated suicide before she was treated so her statements add's nothing new. It doesn't report that she said she was contemplating suicide on that day but rather it is obvious she was talking about had thought about suicide in the past.
A great many people think about suicide at some point in their life a very small percentage of those who think about it actually try. She didn't claim she ever tried. She didn't claim she tried to Grimster, to Ferguson or anyone else.
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lookout maybe you should try Adam with Sunday dinner mashed up with gravy or maybe better jump over him ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Your little kitties are so lucky to have you caring for them ;D I have always judged people by the way they treat animals it is a good guide to who is a nice person or not so nice person.
Yes,it can be said for the majority of people who have animals--------except the " banned dogs " brigade.
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Yes,it can be said for the majority of people who have animals--------except the " banned dogs " brigade.
lookout sorry I forgot about that lot horrible human beings :'( :'( :'(
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Scipio, Lookout looks after lots of cats.
She says Jeremy is innocent. Accept this as fact.
Are you suggesting she is a crazy cat lady who eventually shows up in the news as 150 cats are removed or do you have some other silly point in mind?
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There's a discrepancy here, is there not? MAGGIE says -thanks for that, Maggie- that Helen was visiting. YOU say she was STAYING which, given that Sheila had only come out of hospital that week and was clearly at WHF to recuperate- I'd find it strange in the extreme if June had invited others to stay, too- so what we are left with are the possible musings of what Sheila, recovering from mental breakdown, so hardly likely to be holding vivacious conversations, said to another during a visit of a few hours. It's interesting to note that Helen says Sheila said she HAD (at some moment?) had thoughts of suicide, NOT that she was contemplating suicide.
Hi April,
She does say she was staying there but doesn't indicate how long.
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Hi April,
She does say she was staying there but doesn't indicate how long.
They could have stayed over before Sheila got home and then left the day Sheila returned home. It says she only spoke to Sheila the same day she got home.
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They could have stayed over before Sheila got home and then left the day Sheila returned home. It says she only spoke to Sheila the same day she got home.
Could have, who knows.
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Are you suggesting she is a crazy cat lady who eventually shows up in the news as 150 cats are removed or do you have some other silly point in mind?
No,not 150,just two,one of which doesn't really belong to me but has made his home here.
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No,not 150,just two,one of which doesn't really belong to me but has made his home here.
His name is Moriarty.
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His name is Moriarty.
And does he have an opponent called Sherlock......................or even Cummerbatch ;D ;D ;D ;D
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And does he have an opponent called Sherlock......................or even Cummerbatch ;D ;D ;D ;D
He probably does,as his owner has two or three cats. This one at my place craves attention and the owner is at her shop all day and every day,so that's probably why he's made his home here. ;D ;D ;D ;D