Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: mike tesko on April 19, 2011, 04:22:PM
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New evidence about how rifle strap on gun, was used to remove it from Shiela's body, set to rock CCRC process...
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Eye witness tells COLP investigators, he saw rifle being lifted off Shiela's body, by a named police officer, who handled the weapon this way so as not to damage or disturb any fingerprints that might be on the gun - the rifle that was photographed on Shiela's body from 10 O'clock, onwards, did not have a rifle strap at all?
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Eye witness tells COLP investigators, he saw rifle being lifted off Shiela's body, by a named police officer, who handled the weapon this way so as not to damage or disturb any fingerprints that might be on the gun - the rifle that was photographed on Shiela's body from 10 O'clock, onwards, did not have a rifle strap at all?
How did they get the strap off without leaving fingerprints?
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According to police records, a total of three different police officers removed the rifle from the body of Sheila Caffell:-
(1) PS Woodcock, (2) DI Cook, and (3) PI Montgomery...
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More claims without posting the evidence I see ....
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Eye witness tells COLP investigators, he saw rifle being lifted off Shiela's body, by a named police officer, who handled the weapon this way so as not to damage or disturb any fingerprints that might be on the gun - the rifle that was photographed on Shiela's body from 10 O'clock, onwards, did not have a rifle strap at all?
How did they get the strap off without leaving fingerprints?
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It is believed that the gun with the rifle strap is reference to a different gun that was found next to or upon Sheila's body when she was found downstairs in the kitchen, and which was possibly the gun which PS Woodcock removed from the body. This is also the gun which DS Davidson referred to when he spoke to COLP in 1991, when he told them that some red paint was found on the end of a guns barrel (not the silencer) which caused the police to take a paint sample, RC/1 from the aga in the kitchen on 8th August 1985...
From police records we know that DI Cook removed the anshulz rifle from Sheila's body to enable him to photograph bloodied finger-marks on the front lower part of her nightdress. Also that PI Montgomery removed the rifle from Sheila's body at about 11:10am, that morning
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More claims without posting the evidence I see ....
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Why would one of the scenes of crime officers tell COLP that he witnessed another police officer lift the rifle off Sheila's body by use of the strap on the gun, if there was not a strap on the gun that was on the body?
Seems to me that the reference to this gun with the strap on, has to be the first weapon that was found next to, or close to Sheila's body when it was originally found downstairs in the region of the kitchen, at a time when the police at the scene were referring to a suicide that they were dealing with by 7:45am?
This gun, is now believed to have got some red paint on the end of its barrel, which caused the police to take a paint sample (RC/1) from the kitchen aga, on and by 8th August 1985...
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More claims without posting the evidence I see ....
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Why would one of the scenes of crime officers tell COLP that he witnessed another police officer lift the rifle off Sheila's body by use of the strap on the gun, if there was not a strap on the gun that was on the body?
Seems to me that the reference to this gun with the strap on, has to be the first weapon that was found next to, or close to Sheila's body when it was originally found downstairs in the region of the kitchen, at a time when the police at the scene were referring to a suicide that they were dealing with by 7:45am?
This gun, is now believed to have got some red paint on the end of its barrel, which caused the police to take a paint sample (RC/1) from the kitchen aga, on and by 8th August 1985...
In order for me to answer that I'd have to see the document which states such a thing.
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More claims without posting the evidence I see ....
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Why would one of the scenes of crime officers tell COLP that he witnessed another police officer lift the rifle off Sheila's body by use of the strap on the gun, if there was not a strap on the gun that was on the body?
Seems to me that the reference to this gun with the strap on, has to be the first weapon that was found next to, or close to Sheila's body when it was originally found downstairs in the region of the kitchen, at a time when the police at the scene were referring to a suicide that they were dealing with by 7:45am?
This gun, is now believed to have got some red paint on the end of its barrel, which caused the police to take a paint sample (RC/1) from the kitchen aga, on and by 8th August 1985...
In order for me to answer that I'd have to see the document which states such a thing.
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Yes, I know - but I have to get that document to JB as soon as possible before a decision can be made as to whether to post it or not?
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I understood that Jeremy had asked that the forums be suspended pending the latest CCRC review?
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Why is that?
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Why is that?
Fred, you can read the letter and the subsequent discussion here.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,385.0.html
It is my understanding that Jeremy's legal team feel that forum criticism of the CCRC could be counter-productive.
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Thanks
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The .22 air rifle that belonged to the family, and which was normally kept on the small set of spiral stairs in the corner of the kitchen that led up to the upper landing by the bedroom doors, was known to have had a strap fitted to it...
Did Sheila initially shoot herself in the side of the neck / throat by use of this .22 air rifle?
Was this why EP had to swap over the damaged pellet, for a whole .22 bullet that they could subsequently link and associate with the .22 anshulz rifle?
.22 air rifle was fingerprinted and found to have got Sheila's fingerprints upon it - her fingerprints were also found on a 12 bore shotgun that EP recovered from the same gun cupboard where the relatives claimed to have found the silencer?
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I think you will find that her prints were on everything at the farm. She lived there from time to time remember.
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I think you will find that her prints were on everything at the farm. She lived there from time to time remember.
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Yes and the presence of her fingerprints on so many weapons found at the scene, tells its own story - a story that the relatives and EP did not want the court to know anything at all about...
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You cannot infer just because her fingerprints were found on weapons that she had used them. It is more likely that she had put them away just in case her sons got their hands on them.
It seems to me that it was Nevill and Sheila who had the common sense in that household while Jeremy was too bloody lazy to put his own rifle away choosing instead to lay it on the kitchen table with the magazine removed together with the bullet found in the breech.
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You cannot infer just because her fingerprints were found on weapons that she had used them. It is more likely that she had put them away just in case her sons got their hands on them.
It seems to me that it was Nevill and Sheila who had the common sense in that household while Jeremy was too bloody lazy to put his own rifle away choosing instead to lay it on the kitchen table with the magazine removed together with the bullet found in the breech.
... I can infer whatever I want to...
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Doesn't make it right though, just your opinion.
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it can be inferred ...many things are inferred rightly or wrongly in court..so.
What is established though is that she had physical contact with things she left her fingerprints on. guns!!
sandy inferred sheila may have put the weapons away...so fairs fair ..anyone can also make their own inferrals from her contact with the guns involved that may be different.
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credible posters opinions are considered .
the lossy posters opinions are ignored.
it soon becomes obvious which posters have no credibility and make themselves look foolish.
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credible posters opinions are considered .
the lossy posters opinions are ignored.
it soon becomes obvious which posters have no credibility and make themselves look foolish.
I like to think that everyones opinion is worth hearing even the ones i don't agree with. It's a shame that questioning your own credibility, causes you to view my opinions with such contempt. Oh well, It is a privilege to be ignored by someone as high and mighty as you. ;D
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Doesn't make it right though, just your opinion.
... Sometimes opinions turn out to be accurate, and as is often the case, so do theories, and speculation - sometimes evidence isn't worth the paper its written on. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, or to speculate, or to make inferences - these very same principals were utililyzed by the court that convicted Jeremy...
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To infer that Sheila used weapons just because her prints were on some of them is far beyond what can be called reasonable speculation. The facts are that Sheila hated guns and never fired one in her adult life.
Fingerprints found on guns could be years old or weeks old, there is no way of telling.
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To infer that Sheila used weapons just because her prints were on some of them is far beyond what can be called reasonable speculation. The facts are that Sheila hated guns and never fired one in her adult life.
Fingerprints found on guns could be years old or weeks old, there is no way of telling.
Who says she hated guns and never fired one? One of the relatives who hardly ever saw her?
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No, several actually.
June's sister, Pamela Boutflour, testified that Sheila was not a violent person, and said she had never known her to use a gun. June's niece, Ann Eaton, said Sheila "would not know one end of the barrel of a gun to another"
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No, several actually.
June's sister, Pamela Boutflour, testified that Sheila was not a violent person, and said she had never known her to use a gun. June's niece, Ann Eaton, said Sheila "would not know one end of the barrel of a gun to another"
I don't think it's relevant if she was violent or not. She had schizophrenia.
How often did the relatives actually see her? I read somewhere that Jeremy had been showing Sheila how to load a magazine or something.
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Apparently every reference to Sheila using guns came from....yes you guessed it....Jeremy!
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Apparently every reference to Sheila using guns came from....yes you guessed it....Jeremy!
Actually, it was one of the relatives who said that Jeremy had showed her how to load a magazine. Jeremy said he hadn't seen Sheila fire a gun as an adult - according to the 2002 appeal document.
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It was Jeremy and Jeremy alone who put the idea of a mad gun-woman romping around the farmhouse in the minds of the police.
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It was Jeremy and Jeremy alone who put the idea of a mad gun-woman romping around the farmhouse in the minds of the police.
And? If someone had gone to the house and found the bodies, don't you think the police would have come to the same conclusion - seeing as the gun was found on Sheila's body.
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good point kaldin
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It was Jeremy and Jeremy alone who put the idea of a mad gun-woman romping around the farmhouse in the minds of the police.
And? If someone had gone to the house and found the bodies, don't you think the police would have come to the same conclusion - seeing as the gun was found on Sheila's body.
You missed the point Kaldin.
Jeremy chose not to make a 999 call, drove slowly to the farmhouse, gave misleading information about his sister and her knowledge of guns to create as long a delay as possible before the bodies were discovered.
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It was Jeremy and Jeremy alone who put the idea of a mad gun-woman romping around the farmhouse in the minds of the police.
And? If someone had gone to the house and found the bodies, don't you think the police would have come to the same conclusion - seeing as the gun was found on Sheila's body.
You missed the point Kaldin.
Jeremy chose not to make a 999 call, drove slowly to the farmhouse, gave misleading information about his sister and her knowledge of guns to create as long a delay as possible before the bodies were discovered.
That's pure speculation. I always challenge the "Jeremy is innocent" type speculation, and I'll challenge your "Jeremy is guilty" speculation in just the same way.
If Jeremy wanted to create a delay, all he had to do was not ring the police when he did.
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No, several actually.
June's sister, Pamela Boutflour, testified that Sheila was not a violent person, and said she had never known her to use a gun. June's niece, Ann Eaton, said Sheila "would not know one end of the barrel of a gun to another"
So which relative took Sheila on a shooting holiday to Scotland?
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It that is true it doesn't mean to say she actually handled a gun.
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Sheila was taught how to fire guns, including shotguns, whilst on a shooting holiday in Scotland with David Boutflour. Photographs of Sheila holding guns are held by the family.
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There is an interesting part in one of Robert Boutflours statement when he recalls an incident at White House farm when June called him over one afternoon and asked for his thoughts on a matter.
She told him that Jeremy had been trying to get Sheila to load ammo into the magazine belonging to the .22 rifle. Sheila was not interested apparently and didn't want anything to do with it but Jeremy was forcing her to do it. Roberts recalled that he told June that that was the last thing Jeremy should be doing.
What does that tell us folks?
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There is an interesting part in one of Robert Boutflours statement when he recalls an incident at White House farm when June called him over one afternoon and asked for his thoughts on a matter.
She told him that Jeremy had been trying to get Sheila to load ammo into the magazine belonging to the .22 rifle. Sheila was not interested apparently and didn't want anything to do with it but Jeremy was forcing her to do it. Roberts recalled that he told June that that was the last thing Jeremy should be doing.
What does that tell us folks?
That, possibly, tells us that Robert Boutflour was worried that there might be some unfired bullets in the magazine with Shiela's fingerprints on them, however the magazine was empty.
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There is an interesting part in one of Robert Boutflours statement when he recalls an incident at White House farm when June called him over one afternoon and asked for his thoughts on a matter.
She told him that Jeremy had been trying to get Sheila to load ammo into the magazine belonging to the .22 rifle. Sheila was not interested apparently and didn't want anything to do with it but Jeremy was forcing her to do it. Roberts recalled that he told June that that was the last thing Jeremy should be doing.
What does that tell us folks?
It tells me that June was very worried about Sheila having access to guns, and that Robert Boutflour agreed with her.
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To infer that Sheila used weapons just because her prints were on some of them is far beyond what can be called reasonable speculation. The facts are that Sheila hated guns and never fired one in her adult life.
Fingerprints found on guns could be years old or weeks old, there is no way of telling.
... At least one gun was found on her body, and removed three times, by three different police officers - so, the police must have been pretty covinced that Shiela handled that gun...
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Plus, they found Shiela's fingerprints on the .22 air rifle, and also on the 12 bore shotgun found in the same gun cupboard as the silencer...
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while fingerprints can linger for a while on an object...others using it later on will mess up long standing ones.
What is to be noted is that Sheila only came to whf a few days before so her fingerprints on 3 weapons at least within such a short space of time is noteworthy of being unusual. It is not conclusive but if viewed from circumstantial angle it builds weight as to the contention of Sheila being responsible for killing the others.
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There is an interesting part in one of Robert Boutflours statement when he recalls an incident at White House farm when June called him over one afternoon and asked for his thoughts on a matter.
She told him that Jeremy had been trying to get Sheila to load ammo into the magazine belonging to the .22 rifle. Sheila was not interested apparently and didn't want anything to do with it but Jeremy was forcing her to do it. Roberts recalled that he told June that that was the last thing Jeremy should be doing.
What does that tell us folks?
It tells me that June was very worried about Sheila having access to guns, and that Robert Boutflour agreed with her.
It tells me too to beware of uncritically accepting statements incriminating Jeremy Bamber from a man who, once fragile gran Speakman died a few months hence, could presumably have lost a substantial share of the home he merely rented from Gran, its owner, if the court found Bamber to be innocent.
That this man stated at JB's trial that he did not stand to gain from JB being found guilty leads me to be even more beware of this man's statements.
AE, in her second - 72 page - statement, admits that she misled the police on this issue by claiming in her first statement that her father, Robert Boutflour, owned the farm he lived in when the truth was that Gran Speakman owned it and that it would have been part of Gran's estate when she died.
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Those relatives and the badgering of the police to get Jeremy arrested this case reminds me of the Bolger case I read the murder would probably never have been done by one boy but when there was a connection between these troubled affected two boys it resulted in murder
You have the relatives that hated Jeremy with a passion tried to make out he was gay tried to make out he hated his parents was the cuckoo in the next not really family and handsome as well.
Jeremy inheriting and being in control was more than they could bear
Julie Mugford after the murders probably had her life mapped out wouldn't even have to work now
Then dreams in tatters after being dumped not only dumped finds out JB s been sleeping with her friends
He now has enough money he can travel the world if he wants without even taking a backward glance
Imagine how many girls would be available now he was handsome and rich
She realises there is virtually no chance of them getting back together
She is furious and humiliated
More than she can bare
JB would not have been convicted without jms testimony
JB would not have been convicted without the relatives silencer find
This to me is why JB is in prison
A lethal combination of two people who hated JB for different reasons
One would not have worked without the other
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There is an interesting part in one of Robert Boutflours statement when he recalls an incident at White House farm when June called him over one afternoon and asked for his thoughts on a matter.
She told him that Jeremy had been trying to get Sheila to load ammo into the magazine belonging to the .22 rifle. Sheila was not interested apparently and didn't want anything to do with it but Jeremy was forcing her to do it. Roberts recalled that he told June that that was the last thing Jeremy should be doing.
What does that tell us folks?
That, possibly, tells us that Robert Boutflour was worried that there might be some unfired bullets in the magazine with Shiela's fingerprints on them, however the magazine was empty.
Why do you think Robert Boutflour would be worried labaleb, it isn't as if the whole incident wasn't witnessed by someone who is alive still. No mystery on that one!! ;D
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Those relatives and the badgering of the police to get Jeremy arrested this case reminds me of the Bolger case I read the murder would probably never have been done by one boy but when there was a connection between these troubled affected two boys it resulted in murder
You have the relatives that hated Jeremy with a passion tried to make out he was gay tried to make out he hated his parents was the cuckoo in the next not really family and handsome as well.
Jeremy inheriting and being in control was more than they could bear
Julie Mugford after the murders probably had her life mapped out wouldn't even have to work now
Then dreams in tatters after being dumped not only dumped finds out JB s been sleeping with her friends
He now has enough money he can travel the world if he wants without even taking a backward glance
Imagine how many girls would be available now he was handsome and rich
She realises there is virtually no chance of them getting back together
She is furious and humiliated
More than she can bare
JB would not have been convicted without jms testimony
JB would not have been convicted without the relatives silencer find
This to me is why JB is in prison
A lethal combination of two people who hated JB for different reasons
One would not have worked without the other
There is no doubt that Jeremy hated his parents, his sister and his nephews. He went about blabbing as much to just about anyone who would listen as far as the evidence shows. What a plonker!
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Those relatives and the badgering of the police to get Jeremy arrested this case reminds me of the Bolger case I read the murder would probably never have been done by one boy but when there was a connection between these troubled affected two boys it resulted in murder
You have the relatives that hated Jeremy with a passion tried to make out he was gay tried to make out he hated his parents was the cuckoo in the next not really family and handsome as well.
Jeremy inheriting and being in control was more than they could bear
Julie Mugford after the murders probably had her life mapped out wouldn't even have to work now
Then dreams in tatters after being dumped not only dumped finds out JB s been sleeping with her friends
He now has enough money he can travel the world if he wants without even taking a backward glance
Imagine how many girls would be available now he was handsome and rich
She realises there is virtually no chance of them getting back together
She is furious and humiliated
More than she can bare
JB would not have been convicted without jms testimony
JB would not have been convicted without the relatives silencer find
This to me is why JB is in prison
A lethal combination of two people who hated JB for different reasons
One would not have worked without the other
There is no doubt that Jeremy hated his parents, his sister and his nephews. He went about blabbing as much to just about anyone who would listen as far as the evidence shows. What a plonker!
Apart from Julie Mugford, who has said that? And I don´t think he said he hated his nephews or Sheila - just that they were disturbed (if we can trust Julie´s account.)
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Those relatives and the badgering of the police to get Jeremy arrested this case reminds me of the Bolger case I read the murder would probably never have been done by one boy but when there was a connection between these troubled affected two boys it resulted in murder
You have the relatives that hated Jeremy with a passion tried to make out he was gay tried to make out he hated his parents was the cuckoo in the next not really family and handsome as well.
Jeremy inheriting and being in control was more than they could bear
Julie Mugford after the murders probably had her life mapped out wouldn't even have to work now
Then dreams in tatters after being dumped not only dumped finds out JB s been sleeping with her friends
He now has enough money he can travel the world if he wants without even taking a backward glance
Imagine how many girls would be available now he was handsome and rich
She realises there is virtually no chance of them getting back together
She is furious and humiliated
More than she can bare
JB would not have been convicted without jms testimony
JB would not have been convicted without the relatives silencer find
This to me is why JB is in prison
A lethal combination of two people who hated JB for different reasons
One would not have worked without the other
There is no doubt that Jeremy hated his parents, his sister and his nephews. He went about blabbing as much to just about anyone who would listen as far as the evidence shows. What a plonker!
Apart from Julie Mugford, who has said that? And I don´t think he said he hated his nephews or Sheila - just that they were disturbed (if we can trust Julie´s account.)
Oh believe me it was common knowledge within the family, the employees and the villagers who came into contact with him.
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while fingerprints can linger for a while on an object...others using it later on will mess up long standing ones.
What is to be noted is that Sheila only came to whf a few days before so her fingerprints on 3 weapons at least within such a short space of time is noteworthy of being unusual. It is not conclusive but if viewed from circumstantial angle it builds weight as to the contention of Sheila being responsible for killing the others.
Yes, it would be very significant. Unfortunately, I haven't yet seen any evidence that her fingerprints were on two other guns, even though I have asked for that.
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while fingerprints can linger for a while on an object...others using it later on will mess up long standing ones.
What is to be noted is that Sheila only came to whf a few days before so her fingerprints on 3 weapons at least within such a short space of time is noteworthy of being unusual. It is not conclusive but if viewed from circumstantial angle it builds weight as to the contention of Sheila being responsible for killing the others.
Yes, it would be very significant. Unfortunately, I haven't yet seen any evidence that her fingerprints were on two other guns, even though I have asked for that.
Maybe she dusted them when doing her chores.
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It that is true it doesn't mean to say she actually handled a gun.
and pigs will fly...
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There is an interesting part in one of Robert Boutflours statement when he recalls an incident at White House farm when June called him over one afternoon and asked for his thoughts on a matter.
She told him that Jeremy had been trying to get Sheila to load ammo into the magazine belonging to the .22 rifle. Sheila was not interested apparently and didn't want anything to do with it but Jeremy was forcing her to do it. Roberts recalled that he told June that that was the last thing Jeremy should be doing.
What does that tell us folks?
It tells me that June was very worried about Sheila having access to guns, and that Robert Boutflour agreed with her.
How do you know that RB's statement was the truth, Kaldin? For all you know it could have been a half truth, sexed up to make a minor incident appear to be to be something more sinister.
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There is an interesting part in one of Robert Boutflours statement when he recalls an incident at White House farm when June called him over one afternoon and asked for his thoughts on a matter.
She told him that Jeremy had been trying to get Sheila to load ammo into the magazine belonging to the .22 rifle. Sheila was not interested apparently and didn't want anything to do with it but Jeremy was forcing her to do it. Roberts recalled that he told June that that was the last thing Jeremy should be doing.
What does that tell us folks?
It tells me that June was very worried about Sheila having access to guns, and that Robert Boutflour agreed with her.
How do you know that RB's statement was the truth, Kaldin? For all you know it could have been a half truth, sexed up to make a minor incident appear to be to be something more sinister.
I don't know if it's the truth, but if it is, then it shows that June was worried about Sheila having access to guns for some reason.
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There is an interesting part in one of Robert Boutflours statement when he recalls an incident at White House farm when June called him over one afternoon and asked for his thoughts on a matter.
She told him that Jeremy had been trying to get Sheila to load ammo into the magazine belonging to the .22 rifle. Sheila was not interested apparently and didn't want anything to do with it but Jeremy was forcing her to do it. Roberts recalled that he told June that that was the last thing Jeremy should be doing.
What does that tell us folks?
It tells me that June was very worried about Sheila having access to guns, and that Robert Boutflour agreed with her.
How do you know that RB's statement was the truth, Kaldin? For all you know it could have been a half truth, sexed up to make a minor incident appear to be to be something more sinister.
Because it was corroborated Keira.
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There is an interesting part in one of Robert Boutflours statement when he recalls an incident at White House farm when June called him over one afternoon and asked for his thoughts on a matter.
She told him that Jeremy had been trying to get Sheila to load ammo into the magazine belonging to the .22 rifle. Sheila was not interested apparently and didn't want anything to do with it but Jeremy was forcing her to do it. Roberts recalled that he told June that that was the last thing Jeremy should be doing.
What does that tell us folks?
It tells me that June was very worried about Sheila having access to guns, and that Robert Boutflour agreed with her.
How do you know that RB's statement was the truth, Kaldin? For all you know it could have been a half truth, sexed up to make a minor incident appear to be to be something more sinister.
Because it was corroborated Keira.
By Pamela Boutflour.
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RB's claims have a strong ring of fabrication about them in my view.
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We know what that's worth.
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There is an interesting part in one of Robert Boutflours statement when he recalls an incident at White House farm when June called him over one afternoon and asked for his thoughts on a matter.
She told him that Jeremy had been trying to get Sheila to load ammo into the magazine belonging to the .22 rifle. Sheila was not interested apparently and didn't want anything to do with it but Jeremy was forcing her to do it. Roberts recalled that he told June that that was the last thing Jeremy should be doing.
What does that tell us folks?
It tells me that June was very worried about Sheila having access to guns, and that Robert Boutflour agreed with her.
So they took her on a shooting holiday?????