Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Adam on January 30, 2015, 09:12:AM
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A lot of discussion on Neville's call to Jeremy has been on why Neville would not phone Jeremy. However what is the main reason he would phone ?
Despite several options, Neville obviously felt Jeremy was the best option. Rather than telephoning other relatives, waking June, or telephoning the Foakes's. And a better option than the police unless you believe Neville actually called them.
Neville hoped/expected Jeremy to rush over, force entry into WHF and restrain/calm down Sheila. As well as not involve the police as Neville liked to keep things private.
Quite why Neville and June could not restrain/calm down Sheila themselves I do not know. If they couldn't, there is no reason Jeremy could if/when he arrived at WHF. Neville was also putting Jeremy in danger.
Why did Neville make such a very very bad decision ?
Jeremy did the complete opposite to what Neville expected/hoped. Ringing the police after 26 minutes and then not leaving his cottage until phoning Julie and putting on several layers of clothes. Then driving very slowly to WHF, rather than rushing over.
Upon arriving at WHF he made no attempt to go within 50 feet of WHF. Unwilling to attempt to restrain and calm down Sheila as Neville hoped/expected. He failed to tell the police he knew of ways inside WHF.
Perhaps Jeremy was scared and confused. Which is understandable. Neville obviously felt he would be brave and focused, willing to risk his own life and attempt to save his family. Although Neville would have to leave the front door open for Jeremy, something he did not do.
Jeremy also had a very poor relationship with Sheila. Telling the police she would not be pleased to see him and saying several distasteful things to the police about her. Admitting himself decades later he did not understand her illness. Surely Neville knew this. He was both their father.
Neville was not stupid and knew Jeremy better than anyone. Why do people believe Neville made such a bad judgement call in such a serious situation at 3am ?
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Why are you using a pic of someone you hate with a vengeance ? I find that quite insane.
Surely,a person like yourself would not wish to see anything connected to the man ? I certainly wouldn't use a pic of Myra Hindley to get my point across,her face makes me feel physically sick.
I think it's sad that you feel you have to be noticed in this way !!
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A lot of discussion on Neville's call to Jeremy has been on why Neville would not phone Jeremy. However what is the main reason he would phone ?
Despite several options, Neville obviously felt Jeremy was the best option. Rather than telephoning other relatives, waking June, or telephoning the Foakes's. And a better option than the police unless you believe Neville actually called them.
Neville hoped/expected Jeremy to rush over, force entry into WHF and restrain/calm down Sheila. As well as not involve the police as Neville liked to keep things private.
Quite why Neville and June could not restrain/calm down Sheila themselves I do not know. If they couldn't, there is no reason Jeremy could if/when he arrived at WHF. Neville was also putting Jeremy in danger.
Why did Neville make such a very very bad decision ?
Jeremy did the complete opposite to what Neville expected/hoped. Ringing the police after 26 minutes and then not leaving his cottage until phoning Julie and putting on several layers of clothes. Then driving very slowly to WHF, rather than rushing over.
Upon arriving at WHF he made no attempt to go within 50 feet of WHF. Unwilling to attempt to restrain and calm down Sheila as Neville hoped/expected. He failed to tell the police he knew of ways inside WHF.
Perhaps Jeremy was scared and confused. Which is understandable. Neville obviously felt he would be brave and focused, willing to risk his own life and attempt to save his family. Although Neville would have to leave the front door open for Jeremy, something he did not do.
Jeremy also had a very poor relationship with Sheila. Telling the police she would not be pleased to see him and saying several distasteful things to the police about her. Admitting himself decades later he did not understand her illness. Surely Neville knew this. He was both their father.
Neville was not stupid and knew Jeremy better than anyone. Why do people believe Neville made such a bad judgement call in such a serious situation at 3am ?
The bad judgement would have been to leave the phone off the hook TWICE! If we accept what is being claimed at the moment - Neville called Jeremy at about 03:10, could only have been on the phone a few seconds when the phone 'went dead'. Jeremy tries to call back but it's engaged. The phone must have been off the hook because (according to the OS), Neville didn't call the police until 03:26 (16 minutes later). So why would the phone be off the hook? He MUST have re-engaged it 16 minutes later when he (allegedly) called the police but for some reason when the call was over, he left the phone off the hook again because when the line was tested (after Jeremy called at 03:36 (allegedly) - the phone was confirmed as being 'off the hook'. The whole phone call story falls flat on it's backside because the timings just don't fit and neither does the notion that the phone would be engaged in between a call to Jeremy and police, and then again, after calling police.
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If the call went dead, as Jeremy claims, does that not mean Neville cut off the call ? Usually when you cut off the call, the phone is put back on the hook. So why couldn't Jeremy ring back if the phone is back on the hook ? Neville was not ringing anyone else for 16 minutes.
If Neville just put his hand on the receiver to cut off the call, leaving the phone off the hook after ringing Jeremy, then he did the same thing 16 minutes later after ringing the police. Doing it twice is very surprising.
On both occasions it would have been in Neville's best interests to put the phone back on the hook. So people can ring back.
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If the call went dead, as Jeremy claims, does that not mean Neville cut off the call ? Usually when you cut off the call, the phone is put back on the hook. So why couldn't Jeremy ring back if the phone is back on the hook ? Neville was not ringing anyone else for 16 minutes.
If Neville just put his hand on the receiver to cut off the call, leaving the phone off the hook after ringing Jeremy, then he did the same thing 16 minutes later after ringing the police. Doing it twice is very surprising.
On both occasions it would have been in Neville's best interests to put the phone back on the hook. So people can ring back.
I've just said that!!
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It is very surprising that Neville cut the call off to Jeremy so abruptly. After only saying ten words. And then left the phone off the hook so Jeremy could not ring back. He had decided to ring Jeremy to resolve the situation.
Neville had time to express himself to Jeremy if he wanted to. Sheila was not uncontrollable at this time as Neville had time to ring the police 16 minutes later.
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When statements have been adjusted to reflect the sequence of calls it becomes debatable, also suspicious.
JM tells us in her first statement that she was called about 3:30 then in a later statement it was 3:15. The crowns cases was that it was 3:00.
No matter how you look at this we have 30 minutes of guess work.
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When statements have been adjusted to reflect the sequence of calls it becomes debatable, also suspicious.
JM tells us in her first statement that she was called about 3:30 then in a later statement it was 3:15. The crowns cases was that it was 3:00.
No matter how you look at this we have 30 minutes of guess work.
3.00am, 3.15am or 3.30am, all these times are before his 3.36am call to the police. Although he is saying he phoned Julie after the police.
His 3.36am call is also 26 minutes after Neville's 3.10am call to Jeremy according to his WS. Upon which he 'immediately phoned the police' according to his WS.
Claiming that Neville called the police has done Jeremy more harm than good.
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When statements have been adjusted to reflect the sequence of calls it becomes debatable, also suspicious.
JM tells us in her first statement that she was called about 3:30 then in a later statement it was 3:15. The crowns cases was that it was 3:00.
No matter how you look at this we have 30 minutes of guess work.
It doesn't matter what JM says - were talking about what Jeremy says and it doesn't add up. His times are the one's that SHOULD add up IF he's innocent and he shouldn't NEED to change times at a later stage because there is only one truth, it doesn't alter just because you think you might have found a loop hole years later!
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It seems there are two questions -
What was Sheila doing when Neville called Jeremy ?
What was Sheila doing when Neville called the police ?
He told Jeremy Sheila had 'gone crazy and got the gun'. And to 'come quickly'. But he was then able to phone the police 16 minutes later.
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It seems there are two questions -
What was Sheila doing when Neville called Jeremy ?
What was Sheila doing when Neville called the police ?
He told Jeremy Sheila had 'gone crazy and got the gun'. And to 'come quickly'. But he was then able to phone the police 16 minutes later.
Adam, there is no need to embellish. According to Jeremy's WS, Nevill's words were "Sheila has gone crazy. She's got (hold of?) a gun". He DOESN'T say "come quickly."
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Adam, there is no need to embellish. According to Jeremy's WS, Nevill's words were "Sheila has gone crazy. She's got (hold of?) a gun". He DOESN'T say "come quickly."
Well other sources say Neville said 'come quickly'.
It does seem strange that a half asleep Jeremy should answer the phone at 3.10am and only hear eight words -'Sheila's gone crazy and she's got the gun'. With no request or instruction.
Neville had time to express himself , as he did 16 minutes later when phoning Chelmsford. Or Neville could have called Jeremy back.
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"No matter how you look at this we have 30 minutes of guesswork." I suspect that over all, there are many MORE minutes, but guess work is ALL there is and I doubt that it would count as the new evidence required to get Jeremy a re-trial.
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There is no guesswork.
Everything is clear from Jeremy, which we have to go by -
Neville's call to Jeremy - 3.10am.
Neville's call to the police - 3.26am.
Jeremy's call to the police - 3.36am.
Jeremy's call to Julie - Between 3.42am - 3.45am.
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Well other sources say Neville said 'come quickly'.
It does seem strange that a half asleep Jeremy should answer the phone at 3.10am and only hear eight words -'Sheila's gone crazy and she's got the gun'. With no request or instruction.
Neville had time to express himself , as he did 16 minutes later when phoning Chelmsford. Or Neville could have called Jeremy back.
Well, Jeremy's WS DOESN'T and as you're the one who so frequently refers to the wording of them, I suggest you quote ONLY what is in them, if only to prevent more myths occurring. Just because YOU think strange the words we are told Nevill said, it doesn't give you the right to change them to the one's YOU deem appropriate.
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Well, Jeremy's WS DOESN'T and as you're the one who so frequently refers to the wording of them, I suggest you quote ONLY what is in them, if only to prevent more myths occurring. Just because YOU think strange the words we are told Nevill said, it doesn't give you the right to change them to the one's YOU deem appropriate.
I am happy to go by what his WS says. It makes him seem more guilty in my view. Neville just ringing him and making an eight word statement before cutting the call off. The whole process taking about 5 seconds.
Neville having the time to spend several minutes speaking to the police several minutes later.
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I am happy to go by what his WS says. It makes him seem more guilty in my view. Neville just ringing him and making an eight word statement before cutting the call off. The whole process taking about 5 seconds.
Neville having the time to spend several minutes speaking to the police several minutes later.
Adam. I'm curious to learn what variables you believe there are within a guilty -or even NON guilty- verdict.
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It doesn't matter what JM says - were talking about what Jeremy says and it doesn't add up. His times are the one's that SHOULD add up IF he's innocent and he shouldn't NEED to change times at a later stage because there is only one truth, it doesn't alter just because you think you might have found a loop hole years later!
It's just a hunch, but if the same thing happened to me I shouldn't think I would have a watch with me just to time when everything happened. In fact I would be surprised if everything fitted together like a perfect jigsaw.
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I am happy to go by what his WS says. It makes him seem more guilty in my view. Neville just ringing him and making an eight word statement before cutting the call off. The whole process taking about 5 seconds.
Neville having the time to spend several minutes speaking to the police several minutes later.
Times and timing only come tend to come into play when people write statements. One day our school was being burgled. They didn't get anything, but I chased the two guys through the school and off the premises. About a week later a policeman came round and asked me to make a statement. For the life of me I couldn't remember the time. I wonder if any of us could tell at what time they did certain things on a certain day a week ago and in which order they did them? I personally don't put too much weight onto the timings of certain events in this case, neither what order in which they took place. That to my mind is common sense thinking.
Another thing to consider is that if Bamber was going to lie about timings and such logically he would have worked it all out before he phoned the police.
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Times and timing only come tend to come into play when people write statements. One day our school was being burgled. They didn't get anything, but I chased the two guys through the school and off the premises. About a week later a policeman came round and asked me to make a statement. For the life of me I couldn't remember the time. I wonder if any of us could tell at what time they did certain things on a certain day a week ago and in which order they did them? I personally don't put too much weight onto the timings of certain events in this case, neither what order in which they took place. That to my mind is common sense thinking.
Another thing to consider is that if Bamber was going to lie about timings and such logically he would have worked it all out before he phoned the police.
Well the post you quoted does not mention clock times. Just that Neville's eight word phone call to Jeremy would last about 5 seconds and would not really benefit either party.
Thought Neville would say 'Jeremy it's dad, I need you're help, please come over quickly. Sheila's gone crazy and needs calming down. She's got one of my rifles. Don't ring the police. I will leave the front door open for you. Do you understand ?'.
That would take 25 seconds.
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It's just a hunch, but if the same thing happened to me I shouldn't think I would have a watch with me just to time when everything happened. In fact I would be surprised if everything fitted together like a perfect jigsaw.
It's human nature to check the clock/watch if you get a call in the early hours of the morning.
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Neville would be unaware that Jeremy could get in through windows. So between his 3.10am call to him, and his 3.26am call to the police, I thought he would have left the front door open. He didn't.
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Neville would be unaware that Jeremy could get in through windows. So between his 3.10am call to him, and his 3.26am call to the police, I thought he would have left the front door open. He didn't.
WHY would Nevill be unaware that Jeremy could get in through a window. It seems he AND other family members had been doing it since childhood. You don't need to put your own spin on ANYTHING to make him sound guilty. The jury did it for you 30 years ago.
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Even PE took an interest how,by using a file,you could get in via a window. Strange,that.
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Even PE took an interest how,by using a file,you could get in via a window. Strange,that.
Which he'd only said a day or two after the murders.
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It doesn't matter what JM says - were talking about what Jeremy says and it doesn't add up. His times are the one's that SHOULD add up IF he's innocent and he shouldn't NEED to change times at a later stage because there is only one truth, it doesn't alter just because you think you might have found a loop hole years later!
Loophole is the perfect word for Jeremy's changing story.
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an observation . Even if JB had been accurate with his times and not waivered at all, the police were "allowed" to make mistakes , as were Julie and her flatmates - it would not have made a blind bit of difference . Because it would be his word against theirs. And as it appears to me the phone timings were all over the place, the police account - despite station clocks that were wrong and accounts being written down wrong would probably have prevailed.
as none of us KNOW who was telling the truth its a bit pointless arguing about it really.
The main question would be if EP and JM and her friends were persuaded to change the times of the call then why would that be - what would it achieve.
Its a bit like the Witham Question - its JB against EP - Why would JB deny it id it happened?
If it did not happen why did EP want it to be recorded that someone made a call to Witham?
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Why are you using a pic of someone you hate with a vengeance ? I find that quite insane.
Surely,a person like yourself would not wish to see anything connected to the man ? I certainly wouldn't use a pic of Myra Hindley to get my point across,her face makes me feel physically sick.
I think it's sad that you feel you have to be noticed in this way !!
I agree Lookout.
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an observation . Even if JB had been accurate with his times and not waivered at all, the police were "allowed" to make mistakes , as were Julie and her flatmates - it would not have made a blind bit of difference . Because it would be his word against theirs. And as it appears to me the phone timings were all over the place, the police account - despite station clocks that were wrong and accounts being written down wrong would probably have prevailed.
as none of us KNOW who was telling the truth its a bit pointless arguing about it really.
The main question would be if EP and JM and her friends were persuaded to change the times of the call then why would that be - what would it achieve.
Its a bit like the Witham Question - its JB against EP - Why would JB deny it id it happened?
If it did not happen why did EP want it to be recorded that someone made a call to Witham?
When people change the times, it makes them look suspicious, this goes for Jeremy too, you surely have to admit that?
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A lot of discussion on Neville's call to Jeremy has been on why Neville would not phone Jeremy. However what is the main reason he would phone ?
Despite several options, Neville obviously felt Jeremy was the best option. Rather than telephoning other relatives, waking June, or telephoning the Foakes's. And a better option than the police unless you believe Neville actually called them.
Neville hoped/expected Jeremy to rush over, force entry into WHF and restrain/calm down Sheila. As well as not involve the police as Neville liked to keep things private.
Quite why Neville and June could not restrain/calm down Sheila themselves I do not know. If they couldn't, there is no reason Jeremy could if/when he arrived at WHF. Neville was also putting Jeremy in danger.
Why did Neville make such a very very bad decision ?
Jeremy did the complete opposite to what Neville expected/hoped. Ringing the police after 26 minutes and then not leaving his cottage until phoning Julie and putting on several layers of clothes. Then driving very slowly to WHF, rather than rushing over.
Upon arriving at WHF he made no attempt to go within 50 feet of WHF. Unwilling to attempt to restrain and calm down Sheila as Neville hoped/expected. He failed to tell the police he knew of ways inside WHF.
Perhaps Jeremy was scared and confused. Which is understandable. Neville obviously felt he would be brave and focused, willing to risk his own life and attempt to save his family. Although Neville would have to leave the front door open for Jeremy, something he did not do.
Jeremy also had a very poor relationship with Sheila. Telling the police she would not be pleased to see him and saying several distasteful things to the police about her. Admitting himself decades later he did not understand her illness. Surely Neville knew this. He was both their father.
Neville was not stupid and knew Jeremy better than anyone. Why do people believe Neville made such a bad judgement call in such a serious situation at 3am ?
You know the answer to this . If the call was made there was very good reason why NB could not have calmed her down . Just look at the statement from Freddie Emani - your answer is there .
As you said he did not like to involve family members - Anne and others admitted they had no idea of the extent of Sheilas illness . Perhaps they were ashamed ? Some people in those days were . ( I hope people are better educated these days )
And was it a mistake?
I don't quite know how you can even ask this . Its a bit obvious . And I am sure if she had fired a shot by the time he called then he would have called the police.
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an observation . Even if JB had been accurate with his times and not waivered at all, the police were "allowed" to make mistakes , as were Julie and her flatmates - it would not have made a blind bit of difference . Because it would be his word against theirs. And as it appears to me the phone timings were all over the place, the police account - despite station clocks that were wrong and accounts being written down wrong would probably have prevailed.
as none of us KNOW who was telling the truth its a bit pointless arguing about it really.
The main question would be if EP and JM and her friends were persuaded to change the times of the call then why would that be - what would it achieve.
Its a bit like the Witham Question - its JB against EP - Why would JB deny it id it happened?
If it did not happen why did EP want it to be recorded that someone made a call to Witham?
Good observations. :)
That´s why I never do!
Two erroneous clocks in the mix is a turnoff for me. ;D
P.S. criminals who plan their crimes ahead, as Jeremy is alleged to have done, often have the timings rehearsed down to minutes, like, 9:42 am (just an example).
That raises red flags - not that someone innocent does not remember exact timings. And as Jan says, the times are all over the place for everyone concerned in this case - everyone, not just Jeremy.
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It's human nature to check the clock/watch if you get a call in the early hours of the morning.
Prove it.
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When people change the times, it makes them look suspicious, this goes for Jeremy too, you surely have to admit that?
So why aren't you suspicious of Mugford, she changed her times as well? And the police, their times were changed. Does't that also sound suspicious ?
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It's human nature to check the clock/watch if you get a call in the early hours of the morning.
Caroline - that's sounds a bit like Adam saying everyone always has their answering machine on?
Or generalising about how people behave when grieving?
I never wear a watch and actually turn my alarm clock away from sight because as I wake up in the night quite often I don't want to be reminded of the time.
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Caroline - that's sounds a bit like Adam saying everyone always has their answering machine on?
Or generalising about how people behave when grieving?
I never wear a watch and actually turn my alarm clock away from sight because as I wake up in the night quite often I don't want to be reminded of the time.
I agree Jan, a bit of a sweeping statement. I rather my suggestion is more logical and is demonstrated every time a person makes a statement to the police. I bet around 90% of us could not give a specific time for something they are asked to remember 7 days ago.
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Good observations. :)
That´s why I never do!
Two erroneous clocks in the mix is a turnoff for me. ;D
P.S. criminals who plan their crimes ahead, as Jeremy is alleged to have done, often have the timings rehearsed down to minutes, like, 9:42 am (just an example).
That raises red flags - not that someone innocent does not remember exact timings. And as Jan says, the times are all over the place for everyone concerned in this case - everyone, not just Jeremy.
Actually I was thinking the other day - you would have to at least try to get your plan/story correct and some would have written a plan somewhere. And then perhaps memorise and destroy it.
A few posters love to comment how uneducated JB was. I wonder how he would have planned to have answers / timings / stories all sorted.
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Caroline - that's sounds a bit like Adam saying everyone always has their answering machine on?
Or generalising about how people behave when grieving?
I never wear a watch and actually turn my alarm clock away from sight because as I wake up in the night quite often I don't want to be reminded of the time.
ME TOO!!! Not that I wake up once I fall asleep, but sometimes it takes hours and HOURS for me to FALL asleep. I DON´T want to be reminded of the time!
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I agree Jan, a bit of a sweeping statement. I rather my suggestion is more logical and is demonstrated every time a person makes a statement to the police. I bet around 90% of us could not give a specific time for something they are asked to remember 7 days ago.
I agree . On the two occasions that I had to make statements to the police I immediately made notes after the event because otherwise I would not have remembered the details.
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Good observations. :)
That´s why I never do!
Two erroneous clocks in the mix is a turnoff for me. ;D
P.S. criminals who plan their crimes ahead, as Jeremy is alleged to have done, often have the timings rehearsed down to minutes, like, 9:42 am (just an example).
That raises red flags - not that someone innocent does not remember exact timings. And as Jan says, the times are all over the place for everyone concerned in this case - everyone, not just Jeremy.
Jeremy did have the times sorted. Neville phoned and then he rang a police station over 20 miles away. Choosing the ninth best option. That is not a crime.
Several pages of his police interviews have him unsure of whether he called Julie before or after the police. Eventually opting for 'after ringing the police'. Again not a crime.
The problems start decades later with him claiming Neville rang the police. Meaning his timings have been wildly changed to assist his claim.
Neville's 8 word, 5 second call to Jeremy also becomes more weird as Neville was able to spend several minutes ringing the police 16 minutes later. Why ring Jeremy at all for just 5 seconds ?
Neville's call to the police also means Jeremy phoned Julie before the police.
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ME TOO!!! Not that I wake up once I fall asleep, but sometimes it takes hours and HOURS for me to FALL asleep. I DON´T want to be reminded of the time!
Alias - just because its worth a try - this is a breathing exercise that is supposed to help
When want to go to sleep
Breathe in through your nose for the count of 4 seconds
hold your breath for 7 seconds
Breath out through your mouth for 8 seconds .
Apparently if you repeat this for about 5 or 6 times ( or more ) it slows your heart rate and helps you go to sleep. Its harder than it sounds to do it properly!
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Actually I was thinking the other day - you would have to at least try to get your plan/story correct and some would have written a plan somewhere. And then perhaps memorise and destroy it.
A few posters love to comment how uneducated JB was. I wonder how he would have planned to have answers / timings / stories all sorted.
Yes some it appears want the best of both worlds just as long as it makes Jeremy look more guilty. When they say he messed up he is stupid and when he planned the murders to the details accoding to Mugford he is a cunning and intelligent fellow. Here it is again. He apparently changed the times of calls. Why because he didn't plan all the details. It seems to me that this intelligent and cunning murderer who told Mugford his entire plan. Ommitted several things, including getting his timing right?
Why would he? It certainly appears to me that all these mistakes are the proof that he is an innocent man? And yet at the same time we are asked to accept on face value the mistakes of the police in their communications and Mugfords changing her times 3 times.
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Jeremy did have the times sorted. Neville phoned and then he rang a police station over 20 miles away. Choosing the ninth best option. That is not a crime.
Several pages of his WS have him unsure of whether he called Julie before or after the police. Eventually opting for 'after ringing the police'. Again not a crime.
The problems start decades later with him claiming Neville rang the police. Meaning his timings have been wildly changed to assist his claim.
Neville's 8 word, 5 second call to Jeremy also becomes more weird as Neville was able to spend several minutes ringing the police 16 minutes later. Why ring Jeremy at all for just 5 seconds ?
Neville's call to the police also means Jeremy phoned Julie before the police.
If you were innocent and you suddenly I think you too would grab on to the chance that the call had been made - or even if you were guilty and wanted release to be honest .
IF Jb is innocent he does not know if the call happened or not does he? So he has to cling on to any chance .
Its like the silencer - he does not KNOW what the truth is if he is innocent.
He does not KNOW what happened when the raid team went in.
So to criticise grabbing on to any chance of proving his case is just human nature.
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Alias - just because its worth a try - this is a breathing exercise that is supposed to help
When want to go to sleep
Breathe in through your nose for the count of 4 seconds
hold your breath for 7 seconds
Breath out through your mouth for 8 seconds .
Apparently if you repeat this for about 5 or 6 times ( or more ) it slows your heart rate and helps you go to sleep. Its harder than it sounds to do it properly!
Thanks, I will try it. I have had problems falling asleep since I was SIX MONTHS OLD! Once I sleep, it is hard to wake up on the other hand. What a mess! ;D
Sorry for being off topic.
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I don't know about Jeremy having " lied ",AE actually admitted in her COLP statement that she'd made false statements earlier ! So would I be justified in calling her a liar too ??
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Caroline - that's sounds a bit like Adam saying everyone always has their answering machine on?
Or generalising about how people behave when grieving?
I never wear a watch and actually turn my alarm clock away from sight because as I wake up in the night quite often I don't want to be reminded of the time.
So you wouldn't look at the time at all?
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If you were innocent and you suddenly I think you too would grab on to the chance that the call had been made - or even if you were guilty and wanted release to be honest .
IF Jb is innocent he does not know if the call happened or not does he? So he has to cling on to any chance .
Its like the silencer - he does not KNOW what the truth is if he is innocent.
He does not KNOW what happened when the raid team went in.
So to criticise grabbing on to any chance of proving his case is just human nature.
Why do you think Neville only rang Jeremy for five seconds. Saying eight words to him. Then terminated the call and left the phone off the hook so Jeremy could not ring back. Sheila had not gone crazy at that time.
Then Neville spent several minutes ringing the police. Again leaving the phone off the hook.
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Thought Neville would say something like 'Jeremy it's dad, I need you're help, please come over quickly. Sheila's gone crazy and needs calming down. She's holding one of my rifles. Don't ring the police. I will leave the front door open for you. Do you understand ?'.
Just saying 'Sheila's gone crazy and she's got the gun', then putting his hand on the receiver so the line goes dead. Leaving the handset off, so not allowing Jeremy to phone back, is very abrupt.
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Thought Neville would say something like 'Jeremy it's dad, I need you're help, please come over quickly. Sheila's gone crazy and needs calming down. She's holding one of my rifles. Don't ring the police. I will leave the front door open for you. Do you understand ?'.
Just saying 'Sheila's gone crazy and she's got the gun', then putting his hand on the receiver so the line goes dead. Leaving the handset off, so not allowing Jeremy to phone back, is very abrupt.
It's not about you, though, Adam. I think Jeremy CAN be credited with knowing, more than would you, what his father would be likely to say under ANY circumstances. Unlike you, Nevill may have been a man of few words.
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It's human nature to check the clock/watch if you get a call in the early hours of the morning.
I never looked at the clock when the police told me to come to my mums. I had a gut feeling that she had died. I knew it was early hours in the morning and I had a digital clock at the side of my phone in the bedroom at the time. I may have glanced at the clock, but I have never been able to tell anyone what time it was. :-\
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So why aren't you suspicious of Mugford, she changed her times as well? And the police, their times were changed. Does't that also sound suspicious ?
Yes she did.... :o
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You know the answer to this . If the call was made there was very good reason why NB could not have calmed her down . Just look at the statement from Freddie Emani - your answer is there .
As you said he did not like to involve family members - Anne and others admitted they had no idea of the extent of Sheilas illness . Perhaps they were ashamed ? Some people in those days were . ( I hope people are better educated these days )
And was it a mistake?
I don't quite know how you can even ask this . Its a bit obvious . And I am sure if she had fired a shot by the time he called then he would have called the police.
Do you think Neville believed Jeremy understood her illness and would calm her down ? If so Neville was very very wrong.
If Jeremy had got into WHF he would have made the situation worse. He has admitted as much himself. As it happened he did not go within 50 feet of WHF, when eventually arriving.
Neville knew Sheila, Jeremy and June. I do not understand how he could make such a bad judgement call.
I do not think it was calming her down. More like overpower her if she was holding a gun.
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Good observations. :)
That´s why I never do!
Two erroneous clocks in the mix is a turnoff for me. ;D
P.S. criminals who plan their crimes ahead, as Jeremy is alleged to have done, often have the timings rehearsed down to minutes, like, 9:42 am (just an example).
That raises red flags - not that someone innocent does not remember exact timings. And as Jan says, the times are all over the place for everyone concerned in this case - everyone, not just Jeremy.
That is what I have always believed. ;D ;D ;D
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It's not about you, though, Adam. I think Jeremy CAN be credited with knowing, more than would you, what his father would be likely to say under ANY circumstances. Unlike you, Nevill may have been a man of few words.
Neville makes my teddy bear seem talkative. And we haven't spoken since an argument two months ago.
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Neville makes my teddy bear seem talkative. And we haven't spoken since an argument two months ago.
Well ONE of you has to make the first move. Personally I can't bear -pun intended- sulks from either bears or boys.
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Before, the line going abruptly dead during Neville's call to Jeremy could be explained and excuses made. Neville hearing shots, or Sheila putting her hand on the phone etc.
But that didn't happen as everyone was fine for at least 16 more minutes. Neville having time to ring Chelmsford police station at 3.26am.
I think it is rather rude of Neville to wake someone up at 3am. Say eight words in five seconds. Then terminate the call without saying goodbye. Then leave the phone off the hook so Jeremy could not call back.
Not surprised Jeremy was all over the place for the next few hours.
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Do you think Neville believed Jeremy understood her illness and would calm her down ? If so Neville was very very wrong.
If Jeremy had got into WHF he would have made the situation worse. He has admitted as much himself. As it happened he did not go within 50 feet of WHF, when eventually arriving.
Neville knew Sheila, Jeremy and June. I do not understand how he could make such a bad judgement call.
I do not think it was calming her down. More like overpower her if she was holding a gun.
Adam I don't understand the point of your questions? If Jeremy is innocent of course Nevilles call was a bad decision ? He would not be dead otherwise?
But I am not a mind reader - and I don't know exactly what was going on. I have given my opinion several times - but that is worth zilch in the bigger scheme.
I don't think anyone thought she would actually use the gun on her family . But as everyone uses this argument against Jeremy - there can always be a first and a last time.
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Neville makes my teddy bear seem talkative. And we haven't spoken since an argument two months ago.
That was funny! ;D
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It's a sheer waste of time answering or even conversing with Adam.It goes right over his head.
Where ignorance is bliss 'tis folly to be wise. I wouldn't waste the " ink " personally.
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Before, the line going abruptly dead during Neville's call to Jeremy could be explained and excuses made. Neville hearing shots, or Sheila putting her hand on the phone etc.
But that didn't happen as everyone was fine for at least 16 more minutes. Neville having time to ring Chelmsford police station at 3.26am.
I think it is rather rude of Neville to wake someone up at 3am. Say eight words in five seconds. Then terminate the call without saying goodbye and leave the phone off the hook.
Not surprised Jeremy was all over the place for the next few hours.
Adam - you know that the call from Neville has not been proved - so you don't have to keep throwing it into the mix to prove a point .
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Adam I don't understand the point of your questions? If Jeremy is innocent of course Nevilles call was a bad decision ? He would not be dead otherwise?
But I am not a mind reader - and I don't know exactly what was going on. I have given my opinion several times - but that is worth zilch in the bigger scheme.
I don't think anyone thought she would actually use the gun on her family . But as everyone uses this argument against Jeremy - there can always be a first and a last time.
It seems there are 40 reasons/facts why Neville would not call Jeremy.
However even his supporters are saying Neville made a very very bad decision in phoning him. Meaning the reasons to make the call, which my thread post was about, were weak.
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Why not write something constructive------------like to AE at WHF asking her to ask her friends at EP to release what they have kept withheld to prove one way or the other that Jeremy was allegedly the killer.and if not,why not ?
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Why not write something constructive------------like to AE at WHF asking her to ask her friends at EP to release what they have kept withheld to prove one way or the other that Jeremy was allegedly the killer.and if not,why not ?
Why don't you write to AE ?
Why do think Neville made such a very very poor judgement call on the night ?
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It seems there are 40 reasons/facts why Neville would not call Jeremy.
However even his supporters are saying Neville made a very very bad decision in phoning him. Meaning the reasons to make the call, which my thread post was about, were weak.
No there are not - except in your head.
why don't you answer lookouts post about your reasons for having Jeremys photo on your posts?
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No there are not - except in your head.
why don't you answer lookouts post about your reasons for having Jeremys photo on your posts?
I am on a football forum and have an avatar of my hero. Shall I put that on here instead ?
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Adam do you like football I have a very famous one as my second cousin he plays for Liverpool.
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I am on a football forum and have an avatar of my hero. Shall I put that on here instead ?
well that would be less creepy than a picture of a man you hate .
Or a picture of your Teddy .
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well that would be less creepy than a picture of a man you hate .
Or a picture of your Teddy .
I am all for the Teddy!
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I've just had a wicked thought. :o ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I've just had a wicked thought. :o ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
YOU HAVE TO SHARE THAY WICKED THOUGHT!!! NOW! Yes, yes, I am shouting.
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I am on a football forum and have an avatar of my hero. Shall I put that on here instead ?
Who the hell is THAT?!
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I am on a football forum and have an avatar of my hero. Shall I put that on here instead ?
Is he still alive, Adam?
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Is he still alive, Adam?
I was going to ask if he was still playing but I think I should now ask if he's still breathing?? If he from the time when they wore shorts past their knees Adam ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Its Macarthy isn't it?
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We should be nice to Adam, it´s Friday night.
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Why don't you write to AE ?
Why do think Neville made such a very very poor judgement call on the night ?
Why should I write to AE ? I asked you to because,like AE,you both believe that Jeremy is guilty so therefore it would be up to you both to verify that,because there's sweet f.a. evidence as things stand,and both you and AE are adamant that he's guilty.
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We should be nice to Adam, it´s Friday night.
You are right I think we should all have a knees up and a wee drinkies. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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You are right I think we should all have a knees up and a wee drinkies. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Cheers! ;D
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Count me out,I'm busy, and besides,I lick nobodys' boots !
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Cheers! ;D
Nope - I have been doing the dryathalon so count me out.
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Patti/Alias I am worried now Adam has left the forum think he is really upset by my comments wish I could keep my mouth shut and not be upsetting people. Think he will understand and accept my apology as this is the first time I have been rude to him and he works so hard creating threads and researching information to share with us. :'( Did I read where april told him to go into the freezer and shut the lid OMG he will be upset now :'(
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I´ll need something stronger now! 8) ;D
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Hello lookout count you out of what lickin people's boots :'( I am confused.
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Nope - I have been doing the dryathalon so count me out.
My excuse is warfarin and I'd hate to upset the balance as I don't fancy bleeding to death. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Count me out,I'm busy, and besides,I lick nobodys' boots !
Lol......................Get thee sen a sherry lass. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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My excuse is warfarin and I'd hate to upset the balance as I don't fancy bleeding to death. ;D ;D ;D ;D
My mum takes that Lookout, nasty stuff!
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So why aren't you suspicious of Mugford, she changed her times as well? And the police, their times were changed. Does't that also sound suspicious ?
Who said I wasn't?
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Anyone recognise him ?
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Anyone recognise him ?
Macarthy? Said it ages ago...
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Anyone recognise him ?
Robert Kilroy Silk? ;D ;D ;D
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Anyone recognise him ?
Nope! How is he?
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Anyone recognise him ?
Mick Mcarthy?
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Patti/Alias I am worried now Adam has left the forum think he is really upset by my comments wish I could keep my mouth shut and not be upsetting people. Think he will understand and accept my apology as this is the first time I have been rude to him and he works so hard creating threads and researching information to share with us. :'( Did I read where april told him to go into the freezer and shut the lid OMG he will be upset now :'(
He wont be long.... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Robert Kilroy Silk? ;D ;D ;D
nice one.
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Nope! How is he?
Poorly by now, I imagine. Certainly past playing football :D :D :D
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My mum takes that Lookout, nasty stuff!
I've been taking it for nearly 8 years,Caroline,for atrial fibrillation.
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Macarthy? Said it ages ago...
Sorry missed it. Correct.
'Get him off Mccarthy'.
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Poorly by now, I imagine. Certainly past playing football :D :D :D
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D - I meant 'who' is he?
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Sorry missed it. Correct.
'Get him off Mccarthy'.
None the wiser ??? ??? ??? ???
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D - I meant 'who' is he?
Caroline what big ears you've got. ROLMAO ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I've been taking it for nearly 8 years,Caroline,for atrial fibrillation.
Sorry to hear that Lookout, do they sometimes fit pacemaker with that condition?
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None the wiser ??? ??? ??? ???
I thought Macarthy was a devious American politician. There's a property developer called Macarthy in the UK.
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I've been taking it for nearly 8 years,Caroline,for atrial fibrillation.
Is that the same as an irregular heartbeat?
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None the wiser ??? ??? ??? ???
Also known as Big Nose.
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Also known as Big Nose.
Still don't know - who did he play for?
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Still don't know - who did he play for?
More to the point, WHEN did he play?
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Still don't know - who did he play for?
The Mickster played for Celtic and Manchester City. Before my time.
Became my hero after being so bad as a manager it was funny. But a nice bloke I've been told.
'Sort it out Mccarthy'.
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The Mickster played for Celtic and Manchester City. Before my time.
Became my hero after being so bad as a manager it was funny. But a nice bloke I've been told.
'Sort it out Mccarthy'.
He got sacked dint he. ;D ;D ;D
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The Mickster played for Celtic and Manchester City. Before my time.
Became my hero after being so bad as a manager it was funny. But a nice bloke I've been told.
'Sort it out Mccarthy'.
Ok Cheers Adam, not really a football fan, neither is my partner - he supports Sunderland! ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Sorry to hear that Lookout, do they sometimes fit pacemaker with that condition?
Yes,they do,Justice,but it hasn't been mentioned in my case,as thankfully the condition is under control. My main cause was high blood-pressure which wasn't under control,but no heart damage that I know of.
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The Mickster played for Celtic and Manchester City. Before my time.
Became my hero after being so bad as a manager it was funny. But a nice bloke I've been told.
'Sort it out Mccarthy'.
He was famous for his quotes here is one Opinions are like backsides, we've all got them but it's not wise to air them in public."
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He was famous for his quotes here is one Opinions are like backsides, we've all got them but it's not wise to air them in public."
Well, now, if that's not fitting then I don't know what is!! ;D ;D ;D ;D I have to steal that!
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Yes,they do,Justice,but it hasn't been mentioned in my case,as thankfully the condition is under control. My main cause was high blood-pressure which wasn't under control,but no heart damage that I know of.
Thanks for that Lookout, it can be permanent or short term i see Lookout?
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Thanks for that Justice - it could have been written for the forum! :)
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Ok Cheers Adam, not really a football fan, neither is my partner - he supports Sunderland! ;D ;D ;D ;D
Big Mick looks very rugged at the moment in his beard.
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Thanks for that Justice - it could have been written for the forum! :)
Ha Ha sooo right Caroline, i keep a lot of my opinions in my pants lol
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Ha Ha sooo right Caroline, i keep a lot of my opinions in my pants lol
Ooh Justice, too much information ;D
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Ooh Justice, too much information ;D
Sorry April i think i said that wrong?
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Sorry April i think i said that wrong?
No probs, Justice ;D
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Sorry April i think i said that wrong?
;D ;D ;D ;D
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some peoples opinions are pants. That sounds better.
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some peoples opinions are pants. That sounds better.
It certainly conjures up a very different image ;D ;D
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some peoples opinions are pants. That sounds better.
Ha Ha nice one Jan. Looks like in Florida they are weighed down with opinions? A Florida town has banned people -- let's face it, young people -- from wearing saggy pants.