Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: mike tesko on January 25, 2015, 07:51:AM
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According to Jeremys' original wit stats,Sheila had had 3 miscarriages and two abortions before she had the twins.
Anyone who has a miscarriage suffers terribly and usually attends counselling,but I don't see that this happened with Sheila. That poor woman probably " had to get on with it ",as according to June,after Sheila was discharged from the psychiatric clinic,she had little or no sympathy for Sheilas' state of mind,so there'd have been even less after the miscarriages.
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During the time that Sheila started going " downhill ",the family,including Jeremy,had discussed moving Sheila to " take over "Jeremys house in Goldhanger to be nearer to WHF so that everyone,including Jeremy, could help her and the twins.
There was NEVER any mention of Jeremy either objecting to this arrangement,nor being jealous in any way of any attention given to Sheila and her boys. It seemed that EVERYONE,including Jeremy again,were trying to do their utmost in helping Sheila,who was having none of it,and chose to live/stay at Maida Vale nearer to the night-life of London.
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During the time that Sheila started going " downhill ",the family,including Jeremy,had discussed moving Sheila to " take over "Jeremys house in Goldhanger to be nearer to WHF so that everyone,including Jeremy, could help her and the twins.
There was NEVER any mention of Jeremy either objecting to this arrangement,nor being jealous in any way of any attention given to Sheila and her boys. It seemed that EVERYONE,including Jeremy again,were trying to do their utmost in helping Sheila,who was having none of it,and chose to live/stay at Maida Vale nearer to the night-life of London.
I don't recall seeing it said ANYWHERE that Jeremy was a part of such a conversation , NOR do I imagine he'd have welcomed the idea. It was his first home, decorated and furnished to his taste with the help of a loan, and I don't think he'd have relished having to move out to allow Sheila to live there.
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I don't recall seeing it said ANYWHERE that Jeremy was a part of such a conversation , NOR do I imagine he'd have welcomed the idea. It was his first home, decorated and furnished to his taste with the help of a loan, and I don't think he'd have relished having to move out to allow Sheila to live there.
Jeremys' own,original wit stats.
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June herself was still receiving treatment up until the 6th of August as she'd gone into a deep depression after losing Nevilles' mother,who June had looked after at WHF before her admission to hospital. Jeremy had described his mothers' illness as being an exhaustive one,and between both June and Sheila,it had put a great strain on Neville at that time,so it's not surprising that he was under the weather when he spoke to BW.
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Who let Jeremy out after the killings ? If all internal doors were locked when the raid team entered,then someone must have " re-locked " them from the inside ? It's alright entering in and out of windows,but why were the internal doors still locked from the inside ? Surely it meant that the killer was still inside the building ?
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Doesn't this also beg the question as to how a silencer got back into a cupboard when there was a locked door between the kitchen and the gun cupboard ? Or am I going to confuse things ? The kitchen and the room where the guns were kept were two separate entities,divided by a door which was locked on one side.
I'm tring to get a picture of the layout of the ground floor and it does appear to be all doors,one of which had to be bashed open in which to gain access to the downstairs rooms.
The obstruction they were met with behind one door,was Neville. This area was a blind-spot when looking through the window from outside,meaning that the body which was seen,was that of a woman and not Neville.
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At the time of the murders,there was a builder who'd been working at WHF and who had got to know the family quite well. When it had been announced that Jeremy had been the murderer and was arrested,the builder,a grandfather himself,had said that he,Jeremy,could never have done it.
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Why on EP's communication notes has it got :
Ref.firearms incident ??
Following update-
1 ( one) dead male.
1 ( one ) dead female found on entry to premises-----------------ON ENTRY ?
Request 1) SOC to attend.
2) Ch Supt.Divisional to attend.
3) Divisional DCI attend.
4) Police Firearms attend.
5) Coroners Officer Informed Only.
This was logged at 07.38 0n the 7th of August 1985 by Insp.Norman.
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Then at 08.10,after a thorough search of the farmhouse,a further 3 bodies were found upstairs. Making 5 bodies in all.( Info from Duty Insp.HQIR) As logged.
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The above notes are backed up with original documents or statements.
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Any thoughts on the silence of the Pharma company which supplies the likes of Haldol and Stelazine ? Two of the drugs which were given to Sheila,knowing that Haldol is associated with murder and suicide ?
Did Doctor Ferguson know this also ?
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How long would it have taken Sheila,or anyone in the farmhouse that night,to have just dialled 999 and shouted help ? The address would have been traced in a second. There were 3 adults for Gods' sake.
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A 29 year old woman from Washington who suffered from post-partum depression has injured her 3 children. She slashed the throats of her 3 crying babies to stop them from disturbing her Special Forces husband who is in the Army.
This happened on Sunday when 6 month old twins and her two year old were all crying at once,and she snapped,to keep them quiet.
The woman,Christina Booth is a beautiful woman and is now on bail for $3million for attempted murder.
Olympia police and detectives said that they were getting a picture of family in stress.
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The Lieutenant,Jim Costa had stated that a lot of dynamics had pushed her over the brink.
What a pity that nobody had been as concerned about Sheilas' dynamics ! Of course the case was about MONEY/PROPERTY/ASSETS/GREED------------------and not the welfare of anyone,wasn't it ?
How different it would be if the trial was today ! Jeeze,what a horrible lot !!
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Are we able to read these notes(my I.T. skills are terrible). As for Sheila,you have to admit that she was not a materialistic person.
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Are we able to read these notes(my I.T. skills are terrible). As for Sheila,you have to admit that she was not a materialistic person.
Steve, mine are no better, but if you place your cursor over the notes and double click it should make them readable.
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Contained on the Wireless Message Log @ 07.34, 5 knocks were applied to the door which were heard via the phone inside,along with " movement and voices " ?
Then @ 07.37 ON ENTRY,the bodies of one dead male and one dead female in kitchen.
This was before and after when the firearms team prepared,then entered the farmhouse.
From original log.
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Something that I have read is Emilia di Girolamos' account of Jeremy. It makes a refreshing change to read something intelligent from the pen of this woman,who's also written episodes for televisions' " Law and Order : UK ".
Emilia also has experience of working with offenders and the rehabilitation of them,so has first-hand knowledge of the " inner workings " of criminals. Having studied crime and criminals as well as working with them,Emilia goes on to say that her own instincts told her that Jeremy was " no family annihilator ",that instead,it was Sheila who'd fitted that description.
Emilia then went on to name the women who had murdered their children and all suffered some sort of mental problem.
Emilia no longer works in prisons as she's now a script writer for television,but both her and her husband got to know Jeremy,who she described as an " extraordinary person who continues to work relentlessly to prove his innocence " and also describes him as being a warm,compassionate human being to whom both Emilia and her husband feel privileged to know. They're both 100% certain of Jeremys' innocence.
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Some pretty interesting posts when you delve back over the years. One in particular took my eye and it was someone who knew CC. The poster had said how close CC had been to the relatives in the days leading up to the funerals of the family. Then the closeness fizzled out once CC learned how " they were motivated by greed and CC had deeply questioned their actions surrounding the silencer find ".
Just goes to show,doesn't it ? Nobody knows who knows who.
No wonder I always had the feeling that CC was holding back as regards his book.I've always had that feeling that he could have said a lot more but was afraid of rocking the boat.
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Jeremy had once turned on CC after the murders,when CC had said to Jeremy,after having informed the police, that Sheilas' actions came as no surprise to him ?? It's obvious that Jeremy had had no idea just how sick his sister was.
What did CC mean ? I think the guy has more than an idea that Jeremy wasn't responsible.
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Because CC knew what state of mind Sheila was in,how could he possibly have told the poor girl that he couldn't get back with Sheila because he had someone else ? You'd have to be pretty cold-hearted and unfeeling to come out with something like that under the circumstances.
The way I see it is that both Sheila and Jeremy were taken for a ride,as does happen with decent people who mix with those who are " one ahead of them ". It's no wonder the Bambers preferred to keep themselves to themselves with people like that lurking around.
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Why has CC "forgiven " Jeremy ? If you " knew " that someone had murdered your children,would you forgive them ?? I suppose you would if you " thought " that they had ! Big difference.
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What a pity the dog handler hadn't taken the sniffer dog inside the farmhouse.
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So,the files on the police shooting of Mark Duggan have got lost in the post. ::) How careless,koff.
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I would just like to say in praise of the red forum,what a brilliant poster they have in David819. Here's a man who is taking an impartial view to either side of the case,but obviously knows his stuff judging by his posts. I take great pleasure in reading posts such as his which are thought out in the most intelligent of ways.
Just thought I'd say that he hasn't gone unnoticed and we could learn a thing or two from his style.
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I would just like to say in praise of the red forum,what a brilliant poster they have in David819. Here's a man who is taking an impartial view to either side of the case,but obviously knows his stuff judging by his posts. I take great pleasure in reading posts such as his which are thought out in the most intelligent of ways.
Just thought I'd say that he hasn't gone unnoticed and we could learn a thing or two from his style.
I wonder if he is a member here?
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I wonder if he is a member here?
Hi ngb,I wondered that myself,as this was the main reason why I posted what I did,beside the fact that he sounded like a decent poster.
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Have again been scouring old posts on here and found a letter pertaining to PE and his return of a rifle to WHF " before the silencer was found ". He'd let himself in as he had a key ! Did he indeed ??
It's movements like this that I find highly suspect. Somehow,if the guy had been the gentlemanly sort such as Neville was,then I'd have thought nothing of it but------------------------------------
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The said letter is on a thread headed Southend on Sea Investigation-threats to kill and other matters.
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The said letter is on a thread headed Southend on Sea Investigation-threats to kill and other matters.
Lookie, I only get your post here when I search, so I cannot find it.
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Lookie, I only get your post here when I search, so I cannot find it.
It's on this forum if you do a search,but I understand what you mean as that's happened to me. Oh heck.
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It's on this forum if you do a search,but I understand what you mean as that's happened to me. Oh heck.
If you write the exact title of the thread, I should be able to find it and post here.
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Caroline put the particular post with letter up on the 22nd of March 2013 if she can throw any light on it.
It is headed Southend on Sea Investigation-threats to kill and other matters.The thread was started by Mike.
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What a sad background that Neville had. After having broken his back when he was involved in an air crash during WWII,staying in hospital for 12 months.
After the War,he went to agricultural college where he met RWB. Both then met the Speakman sisters June and Pamela,and after 2 years of marriage,June and Neville were offered a farm in Rhodesia,where Neville had 2 sisters living there,but Leslie Speakman had offered Neville the tenancy of WHF as well as a partnership if they both stayed in the UK,though Neville felt that South Africa would be lovely because of his sisters living there,but after they were tragically killed,he gave up the idea altogether and didn't broach the subject again. Never again was he to speak fondly about the place.
Neville was the perfect gentleman,light-hearted and loved socialising.
June was brought up at Vaulty Manor farm,went to grammar school in Colchester and then secretarial college. After June finished school,she went to work in local offices then decided to help the war effort by joining the female Army and Navy Yeomanry and was posted to Calcutta.
After the war,June then met Neville,they fell in love and got married. Their first home was a cottage in Wash Lane,about 1/4 of a mile from Vaulty Manor farm. June became a housewife and took part in community activities with the church and the Womens Institute assisting with Meals on Wheels.
Both June and Neville were keen tennis players.After a couple of years they took on the tenancy of WHF.
More sadness was to hit them when it was found that they couldn't have children,which is when they adopted both Sheila and Jeremy.
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Is this the thread
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,4057.msg167307.html#msg167307
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Is this the thread
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,4057.msg167307.html#msg167307
So strange it didn´t come up in my search!
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Is this the thread
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,4057.msg167307.html#msg167307
Yes,and it's the 3rd page where the letter is. Thanks Patti.x
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I found this that I had not seen before
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what does ETA mean????
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what does ETA mean????
Estimated time arrival? i think Patti
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what does ETA mean????
[/quottee]
Estimated time of arrival
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what does ETA mean????
Estimated Time of Arrival.
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Estimated Time of Arrival.
HA ha just beat you April
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Arrr thanks all. Muches Gratis. ;D ;D ;D
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" To examine two bodies "
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" To examine two bodies "
At 7.48. It is things such as this that intrigue me. Why only two bodies? Could that be the murder and the suicide?
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At 7.48. It is things such as this that intrigue me. Why only two bodies? Could that be the murder and the suicide?
18 minutes to correct the mistake
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At 7.48. It is things such as this that intrigue me. Why only two bodies? Could that be the murder and the suicide?
Yep,and I believe that was BEFORE they had even searched the upstairs? I understand how Nevill could have been mistaken for a woman at quick glance,but how on earth could he be described as a murder and a suicide once they had gained entry? This to me is compelling evidence that Sheila was originally found in the kitchen. EP have attempted to cover this up along with the finding of a weapon with red paint upon its barrell. The question is.............why?
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Yep,and I believe that was BEFORE they had even searched the upstairs? I understand how Nevill could have been mistaken for a woman at quick glance,but how on earth could he be described as a murder and a suicide once they had gained entry? This to me is compelling evidence that Sheila was originally found in the kitchen. EP have attempted to cover this up along with the finding of a weapon with red paint upon its barrell. The question is.............why?
Described as such by people who weren't at the scene though, right?
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Described as such by people who weren't at the scene though, right?
yes true - and I must admit seeing the picture on here yesterday with NB hair hanging down I can see how he could be mistaken for a woman . That is just to show even that I think JB is innocent I can see how the waters get "muddied"
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Described as such by people who weren't at the scene though, right?
Exactly!
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There's no getting away from it,it is iffy. I think the least the powers that be can offer Jeremy,is a re-trial.
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There's no getting away from it,it is iffy. I think the least the powers that be can offer Jeremy,is a re-trial.
Actually Lookout, I agree - lots of evidence was indeed 'iffy' - I wonder if the 10 jury members who voted guilty, still feel the same? And if the two that didn't, still think likewise?
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Jeremys' " fight for freedom " began at the early stages of his conviction/imprisonment. If it had only just begun,then I'd have had my doubts about him.Needless to say,he's continued ceaselessly now for the past 30 years which HAS to stand for something.
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Actually Lookout, I agree - lots of evidence was indeed 'iffy' - I wonder if the 10 jury members who voted guilty, still feel the same? And if the two that didn't, still think likewise?
I would say that by the amount of information that's come to light since the trial,that most of the 10 have changed their minds completely. They'd probably admit today that the conviction was unsafe. Even the staunchest of anti's would agree on that score.
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Described as such by people who weren't at the scene though, right?
You cannot know that though? We cant know who was communicating to who. I remember your interpretation of the logs and thought they made sense,but nobody has still been able to explain how Nevill could be described as a 'suicide'. Was the term just plucked out of thin air? And what of Davidson's COLP explanation that a paint sample was taken from the aga surround due to red paint being found on the end of the barrell of a rifle 'found' downstairs? Where does this weapon appear in the evidence? Or was Davidson simply 'mistaken' too?
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yes true - and I must admit seeing the picture on here yesterday with NB hair hanging down I can see how he could be mistaken for a woman . That is just to show even that I think JB is innocent I can see how the waters get "muddied"
But his head was facing away from the window and I suspect could not be seen by anyone from that position?
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18 minutes to correct the mistake
On entering !!
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But his head was facing away from the window and I suspect could not be seen by anyone from that position?
If Nevill was directly behind the door (which he couldn't have been because there is a chair there), he probably wouldn't have been seen, but from where he is situated in the CSP, I'd say he could have been seen from the window. However, none of us can say for sure because we haven't looked through the window.
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During examination of the bullets which were contained within the bodies of the families,there was one bullet from Nicholas which had been described as a "swaged" bullet.
Is anyone familiar with such a bullet as it appears differently " made " from others ? Also,would it fire from the same rifle ? Or is it more an air-rifle product ?
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>>>>>>>>>>>>learning every day. ;D
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The chair behind the door as in crime scene pic means nothing. We can't know if it was there when the raid team entered and placed back there or if it was never there at all.
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Seemingly they had a hard job getting into the farmhouse as " something " was blocking the door ?
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I still can not get my head round the theory that they would have been radioing BEFORE entering the room - surely they would have approached - broken in the kitchen - then radioed what they found ON ENTRY . In which case there should have been no mistakes .
They were not rookies after all.
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I agree Jan. That is the most simplistic explanation and I believe it is the truth. Those that believe Jeremy to be guilty cannot accept it as it throws up too many problems for them.
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During examination of the bullets which were contained within the bodies of the families,there was one bullet from Nicholas which had been described as a "swaged" bullet.
Is anyone familiar with such a bullet as it appears differently " made " from others ? Also,would it fire from the same rifle ? Or is it more an air-rifle product ?
found this :
In internal ballistics, swaging describes the process of the bullet entering the barrel and being squeezed to conform to the rifling. Most firearm bullets are made slightly larger than the inside diameter of the barrel, so that they are swaged to engage the rifling and form a tight seal upon firing. Compare to obturate.
In ammunition manufacture, swaged bullets are bullets manufactured by swaging room temperature metals into a die to form it into the shape of a bullet. The other common manufacturing method is casting, which uses molten metals poured into a mold. Since metals expand when heated and contract when cooled, cast bullets must be cast with a mold slightly larger than the desired finish size, so that as the molten metal cools, it will harden at just the right point to shrink to the desired size. In contrast, swaged bullets, since they are formed at the temperature at which they will be used, can be formed in molds of the exact desired size. This means that swaged bullets are generally more precise than cast bullets. The swaging process also leads to fewer imperfections, since voids commonly found in casting would be pressed out in the swaging process. The swaging process in reference to cold flow of metals into bullets is the process not of squeezing the metals into smaller forms but rather pressing smaller thinner items to form into shorter and slightly wider shapes.
Individuals who make their own bullets usually are not aware of available manual specialized equipment and dies required for swaging bullets, and thus choose to make cast bullets. To get high precision results, it is common to cast the bullets slightly oversized, then swage the resulting castings through a die to do the final forming. Since the amount of pressure required to size the bullet is far less than that required to form a bullet, a simple mechanical press can be used, often the same press used for handloading ammunition.
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I agree Jan. That is the most simplistic explanation and I believe it is the truth. Those that believe Jeremy to be guilty cannot accept it as it throws up too many problems for them.
Yes I agree. So things that throw up too many questions they just reject as "mistakes" because their minds cannot handle it as it doesn't fit in with their precious scenarios.
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found this :
In internal ballistics, swaging describes the process of the bullet entering the barrel and being squeezed to conform to the rifling. Most firearm bullets are made slightly larger than the inside diameter of the barrel, so that they are swaged to engage the rifling and form a tight seal upon firing. Compare to obturate.
In ammunition manufacture, swaged bullets are bullets manufactured by swaging room temperature metals into a die to form it into the shape of a bullet. The other common manufacturing method is casting, which uses molten metals poured into a mold. Since metals expand when heated and contract when cooled, cast bullets must be cast with a mold slightly larger than the desired finish size, so that as the molten metal cools, it will harden at just the right point to shrink to the desired size. In contrast, swaged bullets, since they are formed at the temperature at which they will be used, can be formed in molds of the exact desired size. This means that swaged bullets are generally more precise than cast bullets. The swaging process also leads to fewer imperfections, since voids commonly found in casting would be pressed out in the swaging process. The swaging process in reference to cold flow of metals into bullets is the process not of squeezing the metals into smaller forms but rather pressing smaller thinner items to form into shorter and slightly wider shapes.
Individuals who make their own bullets usually are not aware of available manual specialized equipment and dies required for swaging bullets, and thus choose to make cast bullets. To get high precision results, it is common to cast the bullets slightly oversized, then swage the resulting castings through a die to do the final forming. Since the amount of pressure required to size the bullet is far less than that required to form a bullet, a simple mechanical press can be used, often the same press used for handloading ammunition.
Now that's very interesting,Jan,but I bet you anything,it will go right over heads.!
Nicholas was the only one who had such a remark against the official examination. This little child suffered 5 shots.
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I still can not get my head round the theory that they would have been radioing BEFORE entering the room - surely they would have approached - broken in the kitchen - then radioed what they found ON ENTRY . In which case there should have been no mistakes .
They were not rookies after all.
It may have had to do with where they thought the children were. If they'd believed that they were being held hostage in some way, they'd have been very cautious in their approach.
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This bullet would have been found in the box which was found in the main bedroom ? Loose bullets ?
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Now that's very interesting,Jan,but I bet you anything,it will go right over heads.!
Nicholas was the only one who had such a remark against the official examination. This little child suffered 5 shots.
It certainly goes over mine, Lookout. Cyrillic might be easier.
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It certainly goes over mine, Lookout. Cyrillic might be easier.
April,unless it held your interest,it most certainly would do.
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Described as such by people who weren't at the scene though, right?
Dodger - In accordance with forum rules please intodue yourself in the Foyer. It would be helpful if you could give a brief outline of your interest in the case and your current stance.
Thank you.
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When you think about it,considering the relatives more or less suspected Jeremy within days,they didn't appear to be perturbed if and when he was in their company ? Even down to handing him a couple of rifles ?
If that had been me,I'd have voiced my concerns to the police there and then and brought an injunction against him being within the vicinity where I was and spoken of my fear then and not 30 years later when he's already behind bars.
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Imagine being in WHF " with a murderer on the loose " ? Doesn't make sense. I couldn't have gone near the place.
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When you think about it,considering the relatives more or less suspected Jeremy within days,they didn't appear to be perturbed if and when he was in their company ? Even down to handing him a couple of rifles ?
If that had been me,I'd have voiced my concerns to the police there and then and brought an injunction against him being within the vicinity where I was and spoken of my fear then and not 30 years later when he's already behind bars.
The were probably looking for an opportunity to pounce lookout? When they found nothing with which to accuse him, perhaps then it called for something up someone's sleeve to be initiated? ;)
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Do we have RWB's diary in the archives ? Some interesting reading,particularly the part where it was said that Jeremy didn't make friends because people called him " the bastard ". How nice to speak of your nephew in such a way------------------I don't think !
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Do we have RWB's diary in the archives ? Some interesting reading,particularly the part where it was said that Jeremy didn't make friends because people called him " the bastard ". How nice to speak of your nephew in such a way------------------I don't think !
I am not sure if they are in the archives - but some of them are on the forum.
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I am not sure if they are in the archives - but some of them are on the forum.
Yes,they're on the forum Jan. More tongue-in-cheek reading.
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PS Woodcocks' statement claims that there were fingermarks of blood around her throat ! Were they from Sheilas' right hand which was also bloody ?
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Nowadays,if anyone shows their disapproval,and also uses accusatory remarks of someone being homosexual,then they too face the wrath of those cross-examining them in court. Pity it hadn't been applied at the time when Jeremy was on trial when RWB hired a private detective to follow him and Brett Collins,accusing Jeremy !
I don't think we heard anything further on that sly move.
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How about the 3 year old who found a 9mm gun in his mothers bag,shot his father in the buttock,it exited and hit his pregnant mother in the arm ?
So even a 3 year old knows how a gun fires/handles.!
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PS Woodcocks' statement claims that there were fingermarks of blood around her throat ! Were they from Sheilas' right hand which was also bloody ?
Also Rozga had reported seeing a shotgun in the upstairs office.
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Do we have Dr.Fergusons' discharge letter anywhere from Sheilas' last visit at St.Andrews ?
Amongst the details he wrote,it included" the idea that Sheila was capable of murdering her children,as well as her having spoken of suicidal thoughts ".
Cocaine had been taken more frequently in the year leading up to the murders.
The reduced dose of Haldol would have been wholly inadequate plus the fact that it had passed its peak as Sheila was nearing the end of her last,reduced dose.
Anafranil hadn't been taken,nor had Procyclidine. Because of the high potency of Haldol,which had been halved,the risk of Akathisia was high,hence Sheilas' restlessness and inability to sleep.
In other words,she was a ticking time-bomb,a very very sick woman.
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Whether or not in the next submission it will contain " evidence of inducement ",I don't know,or whether it's already been discussed.I refer to JM when she was granted immunity if she stood as a prosecution witness.
The Guardian newspaper had seen a letter from the assistant director of public prosecutions to the chief constable of EP telling him to advise JM of dropping charges if she appeared as a witness to testify against JB.
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When questioned about the silencer,AE had answered by saying " I never knew we were all going to be put through this "---------------------what??
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Do we have Dr.Fergusons' discharge letter anywhere from Sheilas' last visit at St.Andrews ?
Amongst the details he wrote,it included" the idea that Sheila was capable of murdering her children,as well as her having spoken of suicidal thoughts ".
Cocaine had been taken more frequently in the year leading up to the murders.
The reduced dose of Haldol would have been wholly inadequate plus the fact that it had passed its peak as Sheila was nearing the end of her last,reduced dose.
Anafranil hadn't been taken,nor had Procyclidine. Because of the high potency of Haldol,which had been halved,the risk of Akathisia was high,hence Sheilas' restlessness and inability to sleep.
In other words,she was a ticking time-bomb,a very very sick woman.
I think this must be in Dr. Ferguson's notes from Sheila's stay in hospital in 1983,which must be held under PII because they don't seem to be available to read anywhere. In his last statement written post-murders there is one sentence which refers to this: "Whilst in 1983 the expressed fears of harming or doing violence to her children these fears did not seem to recur".http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1204.0.html
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I think this must be in Dr. Ferguson's notes from Sheila's stay in hospital in 1983,which must be held under PII because they don't seem to be available to read anywhere. In his last statement written post-murders there is one sentence which refers to this: "Whilst in 1983 the expressed fears of harming or doing violence to her children these fears did not seem to recur".http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1204.0.html
Steve, unless my eyes are deceiving me, it VERY much sounds as if he's saying that when her meds were reduced the psychoses returned.
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Schizophrania is not a static condition.
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Steve, unless my eyes are deceiving me, it VERY much sounds as if he's saying that when her meds were reduced the psychoses returned.
He noted a number of things including:
1) before she was treated successfully she had thought about suicide and had disturbing thoughts about her children. After treatment she no longer had delusions about her children or suicidal thoughts
2) She stopped taking her medication and thus relapsed. That is why she was put on injections- that way she could not repeat the pattern of failing to take her meds
3) During her relapse she had delusions about Freddie and general anxiety of good versus evil not any delusions about her family. He felt based on everything he heard that Freddie was a bad influence on her
4) Prior to her death she was oversedated.
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He noted a number of things including:
1) before she was treated successfully she had thought about suicide and had disturbing thoughts about her children. After treatment she no longer had delusions about her children or suicidal thoughts
2) She stopped taking her medication and thus relapsed. That is why she was put on injections- that way she could not repeat the pattern of failing to take her meds
3) During her relapse she had delusions about Freddie and general anxiety of good versus evil not any delusions about her family. He felt based on everything he heard that Freddie was a bad influence on her
4) Prior to her death she was oversedated.
He says that on re admission she had relapsed -I don't think he says why. He THEN says the psychosis receded briefly on medication but when it was reduced it returned. It tells me that having tried a lower dose it was found NOT to suppress her symptoms. At this point it clearly was NOT because she'd stopped taking her meds because she wasn't in control of them.
He must have had reasons for feeling "particularly anxious" that she had follow up care and monitoring after she left hospital but it didn't happen.
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And the result of that was 4 murders and a suicide----------------without a doubt !!
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And the result of that was 4 murders and a suicide----------------without a doubt !!
I've never said it wasn't possible, lookout. It's the PROBABILITY that I question.
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I've never said it wasn't possible, lookout. It's the PROBABILITY that I question.
The probability is enormous when directed at a person whose condition WASN'T controlled.
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The probability is enormous when directed at a person whose condition WASN'T controlled.
But despite fanciful theories there is no concrete proof.
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But despite fanciful theories there is no concrete proof.
There's plenty of proof that it was Sheila.How much more do you want ? Unless you were watching the whole tragedy unfold in front of your eyes.
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There's plenty of proof that it was Sheila.How much more do you want ? Unless you were watching the whole tragedy unfold in front of your eyes.
Compared to Sheila,Jeremy's got diddly-squat.
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Looks like a " role reversal " in the shooting of an ex-wife and her children in Atlanta. No details are forwarded as yet,but it's obvious that where there's an " ex ",there's a problem. Also,it'll be interesting to find out the state of mind of the shooter.
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He says that on re admission she had relapsed -I don't think he says why. He THEN says the psychosis receded briefly on medication but when it was reduced it returned. It tells me that having tried a lower dose it was found NOT to suppress her symptoms. At this point it clearly was NOT because she'd stopped taking her meds because she wasn't in control of them.
He must have had reasons for feeling "particularly anxious" that she had follow up care and monitoring after she left hospital but it didn't happen.
He stated that prior to her readmission she kept stop taking her medication and missing appointments.
She was on low dose medication prior to her admission and when he returned her to such low dose medication she reverted to thoughts of Freddie as the devil for supplying her with Cocaine etc. That's why he told Colin Freddie was not a good influence on her. He changed her medication to Haloperidol and to injections at that because her history of not taking her medication and prior medication not working when the dosage was reduced.
He said that based on she told her doctor and the observations of her friends her dose was too high and she was oversedated. Our current state of medicine makes clear she wa sindeed overdosed, more than 100MG is not considered safe. Even 100MG is a lot though and they prescribe a countering agent. She wasn't taking that agent and that helps explain why the 100MG still had such a strong effect on her.
Note that after the reduction to 100MG she didn't show any of the signs that she had when she was moved to her low dose medication she had trouble with in the hospital. There is no difference in clinical effectiveness of 100MG and 200MG so that is why it had no effect medically. The side effects of 200MG would obviously be worse but did not go away fully with the reduction because no one was trying to make sure she took the countering agent. I wonder why that is the case because they should have done so to try to improve her daily life.
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Have just finished reading 'Mummy is a Killer' by Nikkia Roberson. Brilliant book! I have tried to link it here from Amazon and cant for some reason.
Nikkia's mother was mentally ill and religious and also used cocaine. She killed Nikkia's siblings aged 5 and 6 during an 'episode' by pouring scalding water on them. She believed they were posessed by the Devil and it needed 'boiling' out of them. This occurred in Amityville in 1998. It is worth a read in that it gives an insight into how the personalities and moods of those with Scizophrenia can change in an instant. Very sad story though.
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Have just finished reading 'Mummy is a Killer' by Nikkia Roberson. Brilliant book! I have tried to link it here from Amazon and cant for some reason.
Nikkia's mother was mentally ill and religious and also used cocaine. She killed Nikkia's siblings aged 5 and 6 during an 'episode' by pouring scalding water on them. She believed they were posessed by the Devil and it needed 'boiling' out of them. This occurred in Amityville in 1998. It is worth a read in that it gives an insight into how the personalities and moods of those with Scizophrenia can change in an instant. Very sad story though.
Thanks Tyler, I´ll try to put up a link to it and see if it works.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mummy-Killer-Nikkia-Roberson/dp/009194970X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1423423458&sr=8-1&keywords=Nikkia+Roberson
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He stated that prior to her readmission she kept stop taking her medication and missing appointments.
She was on low dose medication prior to her admission and when he returned her to such low dose medication she reverted to thoughts of Freddie as the devil for supplying her with Cocaine etc. That's why he told Colin Freddie was not a good influence on her. He changed her medication to Haloperidol and to injections at that because her history of not taking her medication and prior medication not working when the dosage was reduced.
He said that based on she told her doctor and the observations of her friends her dose was too high and she was oversedated. Our current state of medicine makes clear she wa sindeed overdosed, more than 100MG is not considered safe. Even 100MG is a lot though and they prescribe a countering agent. She wasn't taking that agent and that helps explain why the 100MG still had such a strong effect on her.
Note that after the reduction to 100MG she didn't show any of the signs that she had when she was moved to her low dose medication she had trouble with in the hospital. There is no difference in clinical effectiveness of 100MG and 200MG so that is why it had no effect medically. The side effects of 200MG would obviously be worse but did not go away fully with the reduction because no one was trying to make sure she took the countering agent. I wonder why that is the case because they should have done so to try to improve her daily life.
I can find nowhere in the link that Steve put up which says anything about her readmission being due to that she's stopped taking her meds. It may however be in another statement. He also in sn't entirely conclusive that her lack of interest in the children was due to the drugs being reduced but could in fact be due to her overall mental state.
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I can well believe how the change of personality manifests itself through drug-taking alone. Sheila used cocaine pretty frequently in her final year of life,along with cannabis and of course her mental illness on top of everything else.
I'd have said that Sheila was in a bad way. Too many people buried their heads I'm afraid.
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Thanks Tyler, I´ll try to put up a link to it and see if it works.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mummy-Killer-Nikkia-Roberson/dp/009194970X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1423423458&sr=8-1&keywords=Nikkia+Roberson
Thank you Alias. :)
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Thank you Alias. :)
She's a good lass ;) ;) ;) ;)
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She's a good lass ;) ;) ;) ;)
Not sure everybody thinks that!!! ;D
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I can find nowhere in the link that Steve put up which says anything about her readmission being due to that she's stopped taking her meds. It may however be in another statement. He also in sn't entirely conclusive that her lack of interest in the children was due to the drugs being reduced but could in fact be due to her overall mental state.
I was quoting from all his statements combined. Reading just one does not good unless your goal is to cherrypick.
She wasn't on Haldol prior to her readmission and an attempt was made to put her back on her prior low-dose medicine but didn't work out. Upon admission she was elevated to Haldol injections so she wouldn't miss it and he felt the potency would keep her. He didn't understand the true potentcy of Haldol so gave her way too much but that can be said of many doctors at the time. She was a problem so dump her on something real strong and he felt that would be good. Subsequent studies confirmed what other doctors thought about it. He was wrong that the only side effect was muscle stiffening and wrong that only if overdosed do you have the motor skill problems she had. He could defend it saying his idea of an overdose is different from the definition I would be using but that is exactly why you question people to get them to clarify. When people have different definitions of different concepts...
If Sheila lived they eventually would have changed her to a different medicine because Haldol interferes with ordinary life a great deal but who knows how long before they finally faced it. In the 1980s it was more acceptable to not give a crap about their comfort and dump crazy people on sedatives. Today we are more interested in trying to help them live normal lives but it really depends on the doctor. Ironically the same mentality went to treating kids and that still has not abated. An alarming number of kids are being dumped on drugs and it is harming them greatly. There are some doctors sounding the alarm at such.
For our purposes what matters is that after being placed on Haldol she had no delusions or relapses that anyone was aware of. She was on 100MG for 3 weeks without any issues. The idea that 3 weeks after her reduction at 3AM her medication stopped working suddenly and for the first time she became violent towards others would be hard to swallow even if there was some evidence to suggest maybe she could have been involved. But with all the evidence that says she wasn't and that Jeremy did it the case was a slam dunk for the prosecution.
The same reason his was such a hard case for the defense is why it is hard for Jeremy supporters to come up with anything. His most die hard supporters are willing to make things up to try to make it seem like their position is solid instead of admitting it is blind faith but there are some who admit they operate on blind faith largely.
I think most of the debates have run their course and for the most part we see Adam and his polar opposites trying to convince the other side to change teams though neither has any real hope of success.
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Not sure everybody thinks that!!! ;D
Yer alright. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Yer alright. ;D ;D ;D ;D
Me towd Gran used to say. Thi's nowt wrong wi reet folk! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Me towd Gran used to say. Thi's nowt wrong wi reet folk! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
She were reet.There ain't. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Let's not forget that police lied UNDER OATH during the trial of the " Cardiff Three " case. One,or even two of the prosecution witnesses simply " didn't like one of the brothers ",so fabricated their evidence.
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Essex police under fire yet again. This time over 30 child abuse investigations where they've had to make apologies to alleged victims which involved 59 children. Some cases involving dishonesty and a lack of integrity concerning officers.
DC Derek Benson said " If individuals have failed in their duties,then they will be held to account !. When ?? ( full-pay and pension still intact ?)
28 cases had been referred to the IPCC,which was already reviewing two other cases.
Also included were historical cases of child abuse dating back to the 60's and 70's.
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Let's not forget that police lied UNDER OATH during the trial of the " Cardiff Three " case. One,or even two of the prosecution witnesses simply " didn't like one of the brothers ",so fabricated their evidence.
Exactly .
And all these quotes of Jb said this/Jb said that were made in Sept when they changed their minds.
I still think they had little to go on so the character assassination was vital.
After all if you think about it logically if his behaviour and words were so obvious they would have spotted it immediately .
All those experienced officers could not tell he was telling lies the whole time they were with him - they could not tell the scene was "staged" . They did not suss anything at all - then all of a sudden they have this big Eureka moment and he becomes an evil monster.
Odd that.
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Exactly .
And all these quotes of Jb said this/Jb said that were made in Sept when they changed their minds.
I still think they had little to go on so the character assassination was vital.
After all if you think about it logically if his behaviour and words were so obvious they would have spotted it immediately .
All those experienced officers could not tell he was telling lies the whole time they were with him - they could not tell the scene was "staged" . They did not suss anything at all - then all of a sudden they have this big Eureka moment and he becomes an evil monster.
Odd that.
They noted in their pocketbooks and to other police some of his behaviors and statements. It was discussed IMMEDIATELY how he told them she could use all weapons in the house. They had no reason to write up statements discussing such at the time because statements are obtained for a specific purpose. There is no such thing as taking statements immediately where police are supposed to record every single detail and thing they observed. Statements are obtained to provide to the people who will decide whether to prosecute a case ultimately. It was in September after the lab developed evidence that someone outside of the victims committed the murders that they knew there was someone to prosecute.
I have yet to see anyone who defends Jeremy to actually produce any rational reason to do so let alone evidence to support defending him. I started looking at this case because of various lies from his defenders were suggested to me as proof of his innocence. Upon scrutinizing the claims I found out it was all lies and BS. I entered thinking he might actually be innocent based on what I heard but after the claims all fell apart and I saw all the evidence it became clear he is guilty and his defenders all either have gripes with the police and thus subscribe to ridiculous conspiracy theories or have some unexplained love for Jeremy and refuse to believe he can do any wrong.
The ultimate pathetic claim is to raise wrongdoing in some other cases and then say that taints the evidence in this case. That is wholly irrational. The fact that there was evidence of wrongdoing means by extension if there was wrongdoing here then there would be evidence of it. But there is none so instead it is always well they lied in other cases so maybe they did here too even though it would take lying by way too many people to be realistic including the crime lab personnel who would have to have doctored evidence not just lied.
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Exactly .
And all these quotes of Jb said this/Jb said that were made in Sept when they changed their minds.
I still think they had little to go on so the character assassination was vital.
After all if you think about it logically if his behaviour and words were so obvious they would have spotted it immediately .
All those experienced officers could not tell he was telling lies the whole time they were with him - they could not tell the scene was "staged" . They did not suss anything at all - then all of a sudden they have this big Eureka moment and he becomes an evil monster.
Odd that.
Jan," all those officers " knew that Jeremy was telling the truth. As did JM !
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Effects of smoking cannabis--------hyperactivity,aggression and delusions are the strongest links with the drug.
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AE,in her statement mentioned that she hadn't known that Sheila and the twins were staying at WHF during the tragedy.
Wouldn't you have thought that Jeremy would have " broadcast " this fact in order for those who knew of Sheilas' illness would have given Jeremy the " much-needed excuse " to have blamed her ?
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Reading through the 72 page statement of AE's,I've also come across the officer who told AE that" Sheila and Aunt June were on the bed with a gun between them,and a Bible on Sheilas' chest.
The officer in question was DC Mick Clark.
AE went on to say that Jeremy told her that Sheila was having shooting lessons ? Where ? With whom ?
Sheila was known to accompany her father and AP when they went shooting.
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Remember one or two things about what EP " hid " from view,but under the nose of AE,when an officer said to her " you didn't see that ",such as the time when a pair of shoes were surreptitiously removed from the bedroom.?
I wonder how many times AE " didn't see anything " ? No wonder her statements are full of " I don't remembers !".
Was this fair ? Was this open and above board as investigations go ? Was it fair that the police openly sided with the family without knowing what had occurred in Sheilas' mental state.? Even the family didn't know of the illness to the extent it had manifested itself. Not even the Bambers themselves fully realised.
It's only fair that this case should be allowed a public hearing.
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AE's statements were nothing but a damning version of how she would feel if Jeremy won his case and they ( the relatives ) stood to lose. You can sense the spite and bitterness and how she " didn't want to hear anything said about Aunt Junes' religion " ( didn't want to hear the truth in other words ) as spoken by CC and also Jeremy,while Heather Amos was present, and who AE took into the kitchen to put on her ( pretended ) display of horror at both men speaking like that,while she comforted Heather. Heather having been upset that the boys were forced to kneel and pray at every opportunity,as told by CC.
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Before the tragedy,the secretary to the Boutflours was the wife of an officer in the Essex police. They are close friends.
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Before? When did that change?
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JM was describing how peaceful Sheila looked,at the mortuary,then pointed under her chin to describe how she'd seen " a hole " there ( 1 )( one ) ??
This is on page 21.
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Reading through the 72 page statement of AE's,I've also come across the officer who told AE that" Sheila and Aunt June were on the bed with a gun between them,and a Bible on Sheilas' chest.
The officer in question was DC Mick Clark.
AE went on to say that Jeremy told her that Sheila was having shooting lessons ? Where ? With whom ?
Sheila was known to accompany her father and AP when they went shooting.
Sheila was known to accompany them where? The best anyone could come up with about Sheila was she might have gone to a shooting party in Scotland but she didn't shoot and don't know if she was even watching the men shoot if she did go.
Jeremy's initial account to police was he taught her how to use the murder weapon and she had fired it and all the weapons in the house. Family comments about her lack of interest in guns and the fact his claim of teaching her to shoot the murder weapon right before the murders looks suspicious seems to have caused Jeremy to drop such claims and instead to match the family claims that she was interested in guns and he had not known her to ever use any. The way he tried to reconcile this change during his interrogation was to deny he told police the initial story and pretend that his second version is what he has said all along. If he told the police initially that she had no interest in guns, had never used and and might not know how to operate them they would not have been as worried as they were. His denial is not credible but he could not come up with anything better to try to explain it away.
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Before? When did that change?
The woman could still be working for them for all I know.
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Sheila was known to accompany them where? The best anyone could come up with about Sheila was she might have gone to a shooting party in Scotland but she didn't shoot and don't know if she was even watching the men shoot if she did go.
Jeremy's initial account to police was he taught her how to use the murder weapon and she had fired it and all the weapons in the house. Family comments about her lack of interest in guns and the fact his claim of teaching her to shoot the murder weapon right before the murders looks suspicious seems to have caused Jeremy to drop such claims and instead to match the family claims that she was interested in guns and he had not known her to ever use any. The way he tried to reconcile this change during his interrogation was to deny he told police the initial story and pretend that his second version is what he has said all along. If he told the police initially that she had no interest in guns, had never used and and might not know how to operate them they would not have been as worried as they were. His denial is not credible but he could not come up with anything better to try to explain it away.
Wherever Neville and AP went shooting,would be the answer to your first question.
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Wherever Neville and AP went shooting,would be the answer to your first question.
You are going by an allegation made by Jeremy which was disputed. AP denied Sheila went with him as he went shooting. There was no one who could back up Jeremy's allegation she would walk with Nevill as he shot.
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You are going by an allegation made by Jeremy which was disputed. AP denied Sheila went with him as he went shooting. There was no one who could back up Jeremy's allegation she would walk with Nevill as he shot.
Erm,no,not Jeremy.It's in AE's 72 page WS.
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So AE had suggested that Sheila have black flowers at her funeral ? For Gods' sake,black flowers ??
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Erm,no,not Jeremy.It's in AE's 72 page WS.
She wrote that JEREMY alleged she had gone shooting with AP and Nevill but basically said she didn't believe him. At best this is evidence of what Jeremy alleged not evidence that his claims were true:
(http://s23.postimg.org/q84hkg82j/annshooting.jpg)
AP said he only used the gun for target shooting not rabbit hunting. He said he only discovered the gun and used it the one time which was about a week before the murders. He said Jeremy encountered him and shot it with him not Sheila and it was as they both target shot.
Subsequent to this discussion with AE he gave his written statement and in it he wrote that he didn't know Sheila to ever fire any guns. So in his written statement he didn't include the claim he made to AE that Sheila had gone shooting rabbits with AP and Neville learned how to use the murder weapon in such manner.
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The COLP statement is different.14/8/91.
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The COLP statement is different.14/8/91.
Nope that statement also says Jeremy claimed such and that she didn't believe him. It notes how Jeremy told different people different things.
(http://s24.postimg.org/raxjt6qt1/anncolpshooting.jpg)
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If you read all the pages from start to finish,you'll see many discrepancies and made-up versions of what did or didn't take place.How AE could have known Sheila or anything about her I fail to see as they didn't see each other from one year to the next,if that.
AE had said Jeremy was making up the fact that fostering was mentioned,so it's quite clear to me that the woman believed what SHE wanted to believe.
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If you read all the pages from start to finish,you'll see many discrepancies and made-up versions of what did or didn't take place.How AE could have known Sheila or anything about her I fail to see as they didn't see each other from one year to the next,if that.
AE had said Jeremy was making up the fact that fostering was mentioned,so it's quite clear to me that the woman believed what SHE wanted to believe.
You are trying to change the subject. You said that other family members taught Sheila to shoot and look her shooting. I noted that the people in question denied such and challenged you to posted evidence. You said AE statement admitted such. I produced the parts of her statement that speak to the issues- she didn't admit such she recounted allegations made by Jeremy which she made clear she didn't believe. So beyond Jeremy's allegations you have nothing to support your claims and he didn't repeat those allegations in his written statement. Since police were willing to accept she learned how ot use the gun as he loaded it in the kitchen there was no need for him to lie about someone teaching her- indeed such lies would be harmful because police could find out he was lying. The police in question didn't use guns so were totally ignorant of the fact Sheila would need to be taught how to chamber a round etc.
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You are trying to change the subject. You said that other family members taught Sheila to shoot and look her shooting. I noted that the people in question denied such and challenged you to posted evidence. You said AE statement admitted such. I produced the parts of her statement that speak to the issues- she didn't admit such she recounted allegations made by Jeremy which she made clear she didn't believe. So beyond Jeremy's allegations you have nothing to support your claims and he didn't repeat those allegations in his written statement. Since police were willing to accept she learned how ot use the gun as he loaded it in the kitchen there was no need for him to lie about someone teaching her- indeed such lies would be harmful because police could find out he was lying. The police in question didn't use guns so were totally ignorant of the fact Sheila would need to be taught how to chamber a round etc.
I'm telling you that I've read that DB taught Sheila how to shoot,years before the massacre. She was born and brought up on a farm surrounded by guns of all kinds. Sheila KNEW how to shoot and had been to a few shoots herself.
It's not my fault if you only read biased information to suit YOUR way of thinking.
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I'm telling you that I've read that DB taught Sheila how to shoot,years before the massacre. She was born and brought up on a farm surrounded by guns of all kinds. Sheila KNEW how to shoot and had been to a few shoots herself.
It's not my fault if you only read biased information to suit YOUR way of thinking.
The one reading biased information is you. You read accounts from books which don't proved any evidence while I go the sources. Only DB would know for sure whether he taught Sheila to shoot unless someone else were present. There are no witnesses who claim they saw DB teach her to shoot nor doe she claim he did.
Secondary evidence would be a claim he told someone he taught her to shoot which would set the stage for him saying the person was lying or misunderstood and then it comes to credibility. There are no witnesses who say he told them he taught Sheila to shoot nor are there any witnesses who say Sheila told them DB taught her to shoot.
If you were not biased beyond all reason and actually objective like you claim to be then you would look for witness statement to events and not make claims unless there were a credible witness who says they witnessed what you are asserting.
You have no witnesses though who saw DB teach her or a witness told by DB or Sheila that DB taught her. That is the only evidence that could be brought to bear and thus where a rational objective party would look.
As a practical matter being taught how to use a double barrel shotgun would not enable someone to know how to use the murder weapon because they function differently. So even if DB had taught her to shoot a shotgun it would still mean little but there is no evidence that supports your claims. You are the one being biased and closing your eyes to the truth not me.
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Most people get a good deal of knowledge about their parents´ occupation and tools of their trade.
My father was a civil engineer, I am not a civil engineer. Even though my father died when I was a small child, I have seen his work, I have some of his drawings and tools. I know a bit about civil engineering and about how to use the tools.
I bet that Sheila knew more about tractors and guns than I do. My father was not a farmer.
More than that: since when is it rocket science to load a rifle, to aim and fire it at someone? Sheila had bright forefathers, she was probably a bright person.
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Most people get a good deal of knowledge about their parents´ occupation and tools of their trade.
My father was a civil engineer, I am not a civil engineer. Even though my father died when I was a small child, I have seen his work, I have some of his drawings and tools. I know a bit about civil engineering and about how to use the tools.
I bet that Sheila knew more about tractors and guns than I do. My father was not a farmer.
More than that: since when is it rocket science to load a rifle, to aim and fire it at someone? Sheila had bright forefathers, she was probably a bright person.
unless people take an interest in their parent's work they will not know much about what they do. What he did on the farm didn't involve guns though it was mainly a hobby for him. He occasionally got rid of vermin with 410s but Sheila took no interest in guns so why would she know about them? Those who don't want to face Jeremy's guilt simply assume Sheila would have to know about guns ignoring all the evidence that she didn't because it harms their agenda.
The same mentality is used to look away at all evidence especially the physical evidence that proves someone else shot everyone else and the physical evidence that proves Sheila didn't shoot herself.
The amusing this is when such biased people try pretending they are the objective ones and the people objectively reading the facts are biased against Jeremy.
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unless people take an interest in their parent's work they will not know much about what they do. What he did on the farm didn't involve guns though it was mainly a hobby for him. He occasionally got rid of vermin with 410s but Sheila took no interest in guns so why would she know about them? Those who don't want to face Jeremy's guilt simply assume Sheila would have to know about guns ignoring all the evidence that she didn't because it harms their agenda.
The same mentality is used to look away at all evidence especially the physical evidence that proves someone else shot everyone else and the physical evidence that proves Sheila didn't shoot herself.
The amusing this is when such biased people try pretending they are the objective ones and the people objectively reading the facts are biased against Jeremy.
My dad was a Chiropodist - I've got a nice scalpel here if anyone wants me to chop off their bunions? (bwahaha!! ;D ;D ;D ;D )
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Good job I don't have bunions. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Good job I don't have bunions. ;D ;D ;D ;D
She might cut off more than just bunions anyway. Her father's skills do not necessarily relate to her. I would want to know she was trained to use it and has done so successfully before if I had bunions and were going to consider taking her up on the offer. I would not go to the son of a mohel and say well your dad is qualified so here hack my kid. Might end up like Jerry Seinfeld when he got his finger circumsized.
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She might cut off more than just bunions anyway. Her father's skills do not necessarily relate to her. I would want to know she was trained to use it and has done so successfully before if I had bunions and were going to consider taking her up on the offer. I would not go to the son of a mohel and say well your dad is qualified so here hack my kid. Might end up like Jerry Seinfeld when he got his finger circumsized.
What was Jerry Seinfeld in jail for ?
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What was Jerry Seinfeld in jail for ?
Lookout, this must be a trick question! ;D
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Jeremy's initial account to police was he taught her how to use the murder weapon and she had fired it and all the weapons in the house.
Where do I find this assertion that Jeremy said initially that he taught her (Sheila) how to use the murder weapon? I don't recall reading that in any police statement.
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Lookout, this must be a trick question! ;D
No,not a trick question,Alias. Because Scipio knows everything I directed the question at him. ;D
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No,not a trick question,Alias. Because Scipio knows everything I directed the question at him. ;D
Looks like I'm going to have to find out for myself ::)
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No,not a trick question,Alias. Because Scipio knows everything I directed the question at him. ;D
Then I will zip it. :-X
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What was Jerry Seinfeld in jail for ?
If you mean at the end of the show, the writers made up a law where you had a legal duty to give aid if someone is in trouble. They watched someone get robbed and did nothing to help so were arrested for violating the law. It was one of the dumbest endings of any TV series and served little more than a basis to recap things that happened in the past through flashbacks. For a show that was as funny as Seinfeld everyone expected much better.
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What gets me about this case is that when the prosecution were telling Jeremy he was lying,as they do,what did THEY have to back up THEIR claims that he was lying when there was clearly no evidence ?
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Such as where Jeremy had said where he left the rifle in the first place. How did ANYONE know that he didn't ??
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So far as I can see,the relatives were giving the police their own version of events,true or not,and these versions were being taken as the truth,whatever Jeremy had previously said,so contradicting what Jeremy had already stated in his own mind/words,to be the truth.
When you look deeply into all this very one-sided case,it's definitely and positively totally unfair.
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Just this week,a beautiful Belgian woman has been accused of murdering 3 of her children by locking them in a shed and setting fire to it and them,while making her husband listen to their screams.
This was brought on by a custody battle.The 4th child,who's 9,was at school.
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The above murder by the mother was brought on by a letter from her husbands' lawyer,claiming custody of the children.
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What gets me about this case is that when the prosecution were telling Jeremy he was lying,as they do,what did THEY have to back up THEIR claims that he was lying when there was clearly no evidence ?
Intuition - which is something you yourself hold a lot of stock in ;)
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Intuition - which is something you yourself hold a lot of stock in ;)
My intuition is different ;D It comes without an end product or any other ulterior motive. ;D ;D
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Such as where Jeremy had said where he left the rifle in the first place. How did ANYONE know that he didn't ??
Well first of all he changed his story of where he left it which is a clue he was lying.
Second it made no sense for him and the family to leave the gun out.
Third it made no sense for him to get the gun out to shoot rabbits for the first time in his life at that hour.
Fourth he would not have found the gun without the moderator and scope attached like he claimed
Finally and most significantly to support his story he staged bullets in the kitchen but staged too many and thus gave away that he staged them after the murders. You ignored his own claim that he dumped them out next to the phone and suggested because they were dumped out this supports Sheila having done it.
Tell us again how you are not biased when you constantly ignore the facts and make up excuses for Jeremy...
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Well first of all he changed his story of where he left it which is a clue he was lying.
Second it made no sense for him and the family to leave the gun out.
Third it made no sense for him to get the gun out to shoot rabbits for the first time in his life at that hour.
Fourth he would not have found the gun without the moderator and scope attached like he claimed
Finally and most significantly to support his story he staged bullets in the kitchen but staged too many and thus gave away that he staged them after the murders. You ignored his own claim that he dumped them out next to the phone and suggested because they were dumped out this supports Sheila having done it.
Tell us again how you are not biased when you constantly ignore the facts and make up excuses for Jeremy...
Scipio, I CANNOT accept that you're third point is anywhere near correct. IMO, it's a WILDLY sweeping statement. I cannot imagine that ANY farming son of his age hasn't, at some point in his life had a go at shooting rabbits. He was allegedly good at shooting in his school gun club. Did he learn the skill there OR maybe when he'd been out shooting with his father. He may not have liked shooting rabbits but it doesn't mean that by the time he'd reached 25, he never had.
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My intuition is different ;D It comes without an end product or any other ulterior motive. ;D ;D
It does have an end product - you want Jeremy to be free, just as EP wanted him convicted.
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It does have an end product - you want Jeremy to be free, just as EP wanted him convicted.
...............at any price. Holds true for both?
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It does have an end product - you want Jeremy to be free, just as EP wanted him convicted.
It's not a PERSONAL gain though. ;D
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The ammunition is a good point,though. A Sheila in psychosis is not going to plan anything. To my mind if it has to be Sheila it's a psychotic episode over which she bears no real control.
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The ammunition is a good point,though. A Sheila in psychosis is not going to plan anything. To my mind if it has to be Sheila it's a psychotic episode over which she bears no real control.
STEVE!!! It seems as if we've done a 360 degree turn. That's exactly what I said when I first joined the forum :D
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Scipio, I CANNOT accept that you're third point is anywhere near correct. IMO, it's a WILDLY sweeping statement. I cannot imagine that ANY farming son of his age hasn't, at some point in his life had a go at shooting rabbits. He was allegedly good at shooting in his school gun club. Did he learn the skill there OR maybe when he'd been out shooting with his father. He may not have liked shooting rabbits but it doesn't mean that by the time he'd reached 25, he never had.
Quite right even AP in his statement said he went shooting with his father - what does Scipio think they were doing ? shooting cows?
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Quite right even AP in his statement said he went shooting with his father - what does Scipio think they were doing ? shooting cows?
LOOOOL (http://www.elfpack.com/stuff/Moocow.gif?jpg=y)
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Hahahahahahahaha. I've got a milk jug like that.
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Scipio, I CANNOT accept that you're third point is anywhere near correct. IMO, it's a WILDLY sweeping statement. I cannot imagine that ANY farming son of his age hasn't, at some point in his life had a go at shooting rabbits. He was allegedly good at shooting in his school gun club. Did he learn the skill there OR maybe when he'd been out shooting with his father. He may not have liked shooting rabbits but it doesn't mean that by the time he'd reached 25, he never had.
I cannot accept that all or even most sons of farmers would decide they want to shoot rabbits and that they will all do so.
Whether someone will or won't do so or has or has not done so is an inquiry to be made on an individual basis. It involves finding out about the exact person involved. There are farms in NJ and used to be a lot more when I first moved here. None of the people I know who lived on farms shot rabbits except one who shot at any living thing he could get away with killing including gutting a raccoon. He did it because he was mean. I wonder what became of him because a good number of people who do that go on to kill people as adults. He moved to another state who knows if he is killing people there. See how silly such generalizations can get...
The facts here are simple:
1) The workers didn't see Jeremy shoot rabbits
2) the family didn't see Jeremy ever shoot rabbits
3) Julie didn't see him shoot rabbits
4) Julie and his family said he was opposed to shooting animals so his family was surprised when he claimed he was interested in getting into game hunting- which he ended up not getting not that was just an excuse to get a semi-auto shotgun but it failed
So there is no evidence that Jeremy ever shot rabbits before and in fact is evidence he would not have done so because he didn't like shooting animals.
Why do you ignore this evidence? Because you would like to believe all farmers and their sons will shoot rabbits.
Since I know not all farmers shoot rabbits and there are a lot of gun lovers like me who won't shoot animals except in self-defense I find no evidence to believe that Jeremy had to have shot at rabbits during his lifetime. There is no evidence that disproves the claims of the family etc who never knew him to shoot rabbits and said he was opposed to killing animals. The family only knew him to target shoot and that is all he did in front to them. I find it hard to believe he was in the habit of shooting rabbits and yet no one was aware of this.
That seems to be lost in this because in order for his story to be true he would have to have been in the habit of shooting rabbits. No way would he decide as it was getting dark to rush out to shoot them unless he was in the habit of doing so and that still doesn't help explain how he could have seen them let alone the other problems with his account.
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so the summary is - Sheila cant of done it because she had never shot a gun before
Jeremy cant of done it because he could not even shoot a rabbit - Scipio had kindly proven that FACT ;D
So it would be unreasonable to assume he could kill a human.
BTW it was well documented that the family you are so happy to quote were not actually that close so I would not take their statements that seriously .
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I've explained, using my own thoughts,why Jeremy decided to go outside to " shoot rabbits " that night.
The family were ensconced in their debate about the futures of the twins and what would be best for Sheila,so rather than interrupt this on-going conversation by suddenly leaving,he used this shooting tactic to excuse himself while they continued,knowing that his father had some loose ends to tie up on the farm,he intended to say his good-byes when there was a lull in the conversation.
To me,it was nothing more than a breather that Jeremy went out for as he must have heard the same conversation before and because it had nothing to do with him,he didn't want to appear to be eaves-dropping and embarrassing his sister. June had already told Sheila she was an unfit mother.
I don't find anything sinister, or suspicious in what he did at all simply because I'm not making a big deal in what he decided to do.
It would be more to the point to find out at what part of the family discussion did Jeremy leave the room.
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I cannot accept that all or even most sons of farmers would decide they want to shoot rabbits and that they will all do so.
Whether someone will or won't do so or has or has not done so is an inquiry to be made on an individual basis. It involves finding out about the exact person involved. There are farms in NJ and used to be a lot more when I first moved here. None of the people I know who lived on farms shot rabbits except one who shot at any living thing he could get away with killing including gutting a raccoon. He did it because he was mean. I wonder what became of him because a good number of people who do that go on to kill people as adults. He moved to another state who knows if he is killing people there. See how silly such generalizations can get...
The facts here are simple:
1) The workers didn't see Jeremy shoot rabbits
2) the family didn't see Jeremy ever shoot rabbits
3) Julie didn't see him shoot rabbits
4) Julie and his family said he was opposed to shooting animals so his family was surprised when he claimed he was interested in getting into game hunting- which he ended up not getting not that was just an excuse to get a semi-auto shotgun but it failed
So there is no evidence that Jeremy ever shot rabbits before and in fact is evidence he would not have done so because he didn't like shooting animals.
Why do you ignore this evidence? Because you would like to believe all farmers and their sons will shoot rabbits.
Since I know not all farmers shoot rabbits and there are a lot of gun lovers like me who won't shoot animals except in self-defense I find no evidence to believe that Jeremy had to have shot at rabbits during his lifetime. There is no evidence that disproves the claims of the family etc who never knew him to shoot rabbits and said he was opposed to killing animals. The family only knew him to target shoot and that is all he did in front to them. I find it hard to believe he was in the habit of shooting rabbits and yet no one was aware of this.
That seems to be lost in this because in order for his story to be true he would have to have been in the habit of shooting rabbits. No way would he decide as it was getting dark to rush out to shoot them unless he was in the habit of doing so and that still doesn't help explain how he could have seen them let alone the other problems with his account.
Can you not see that you're doing EXACTLY what you sneeringly accuse us of doing because of out ignorance. I suppose if I were to find ONE farmer's son out of 100 who, at age 25 confirmed that he'd NEVER shot rabbits you'd say I'd proved your point, yet you won't allow us the same courtesy, dismissing it as improbable. Whilst YOU may not know people who shoot rabbits, we have a good relationship with our butchers who pay for as many as they can get. As far as farmers are concerned the come in droves and destroy crops. Large estates employ game keepers.
The workers may not have seen Jeremy shoot rabbits. He hadn't exactly been a constant on the farm.
The family didn't live on site and had little idea of the daily activities of the Bambers.
I doubt that Julie went to work with Jeremy and she wasn't constantly at the cottage.
I wonder if he told them about wringing rats' necks. Birds don't count as animals, I suppose, so he could have mentioned if he'd shot pheasants.
I have NEVER said that shooting rabbits was his sport of choice, but I won't allow that, at 25, he'd NEVER previously shot them.
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I don't think June would have accused Sheila directly of being an unfit mother,though it might have been perceived by Sheila as being so. June was ill herself,moping around the farm,taking solace in her bible,she had written the heartfelt letter to be opened after her death still unable to channel her thoughts orally to her children. At 9:30pm Nevill answered the telephone to farm secretary Barbara Wilson,whom normally he liked to engage in conversation,but this time Barbara felt as though she had interrupted an argument. Yet Jeremy tells us Sheila was calm throughout,and this is confirmed when June tells Pamela in a later call that Sheila is tired and off to bed. Could it have been Nevill who told Sheila some home truths maybe for the first time in his life that she would have to try harder to look after her own children and not put upon his wife to care for them?
As for the rabbits,sorry I don't believe Jeremy's story and he got into difficulties during Police interrogation by trying to decide whether it would be more advantageous to say he had fired shots or not. In the end he took the line that he had not.
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Quite right even AP in his statement said he went shooting with his father - what does Scipio think they were doing ? shooting cows?
AP didn't say that Jeremy went shooting with his father. He said that Jeremy took the gun out to the fields with him. AP didn't say it was used, he didn't know if it was used because he didn't go with them. He said one time the weekend he was there he saw Jeremy carry it with him as he went out to the fields and that he found it odd that Jeremy was carrying it:
(http://s30.postimg.org/z7o074fy9/apshooting1.jpg)
(http://s8.postimg.org/imtzg83o5/apshooting.jpg)
So Jeremy had no interest in using a shotgun to shoot vermin when he was younger. He only took an interest in guns when he liked AP's rifle and he used APs rifle for target shooting not to shoot vermin.
What shooting did he see Jeremy do that weekend? Only target shooting with AP's rifle he never saw Jeremy fire the Anschutz let alone saw him shoot any vermin with it. This actually is something I have been mistaken about. I thought Jeremy and AP fired the Anschutz together for target shooting but now see Jeremy fired his rifle he never saw Jeremy fire the Anschutz, my error:
(http://s1.postimg.org/mvqdd27gf/apshooting3.jpg)
(http://s29.postimg.org/h282b41h3/apshooting2.jpg)
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so the summary is - Sheila cant of done it because she had never shot a gun before
Jeremy cant of done it because he could not even shoot a rabbit - Scipio had kindly proven that FACT ;D
So it would be unreasonable to assume he could kill a human.
BTW it was well documented that the family you are so happy to quote were not actually that close so I would not take their statements that seriously .
My argument is that the physical evidence proves Sheila didn't kill anyone or her self and didn't even load let alone fire a weapon. Moreover she would not have known how to load and operate the weapon and there is a ton of evidence Jeremy attempted to frame his sister including by making up the tale he left the gun and bullets in the kitchen but left too many thus revealing he staged the bullets after the murders. He also clearly removed the scope himself because it would have made the murders more difficult.
Jeremy used the gun for target practice thus knew how to operate it and admits he knew how to operate it. That he didn't shoot rabbits has no bearing on whether he would murder his family for money.
How does not shooting a rabbit and only using
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Why do they have rifles on farms? To shoot vermin.
Why this long winded discussion?
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I don't think June would have accused Sheila directly of being an unfit mother,though it might have been perceived by Sheila as being so. June was ill herself,moping around the farm,taking solace in her bible,she had written the heartfelt letter to be opened after her death still unable to channel her thoughts orally to her children. At 9:30pm Nevill answered the telephone to farm secretary Barbara Wilson,whom normally he liked to engage in conversation,but this time Barbara felt as though she had interrupted an argument. Yet Jeremy tells us Sheila was calm throughout,and this is confirmed when June tells Pamela in a later call that Sheila is tired and off to bed. Could it have been Nevill who told Sheila some home truths maybe for the first time in his life that she would have to try harder to look after her own children and not put upon his wife to care for them?
As for the rabbits,sorry I don't believe Jeremy's story and he got into difficulties during Police interrogation by trying to decide whether it would be more advantageous to say he had fired shots or not. In the end he took the line that he had not.
Steve,this is what I've read about June telling Sheila she was an" unfit mother and should consider fostering ".This was part of the conversation,as I remember quoting the same last year and also in 2013,because Dr Ferguson had remarked on it saying that it would have tipped Sheila over the edge. He only got to know about that after the trial.
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Steve,this is what I've read about June telling Sheila she was an" unfit mother and should consider fostering ".This was part of the conversation,as I remember quoting the same last year and also in 2013,because Dr Ferguson had remarked on it saying that it would have tipped Sheila over the edge. He only got to know about that after the trial.
What I can't understand is why Sheila was described by Jeremy as calm,corroborated by Pamela some time later when she spoke to her on the telephone. Sheila could have refused to speak to Pamela had she had a row with her mother,she could have shouted obscenities down the phone at Pamela,but June told her sister that Sheila was tired and was going to bed,so I'm taking that as what was happening at that stage.
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Sheila went to bed early - to make her wake up in the middle of the night roaming around. In that sense you can say she suffered from sleeplessness during the night when other people slept.
Her neighbours in Maida Vale told that they could hear her wailing during the very early hours.
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What I can't understand is why Sheila was described by Jeremy as calm,corroborated by Pamela some time later when she spoke to her on the telephone. Sheila could have refused to speak to Pamela had she had a row with her mother,she could have shouted obscenities down the phone at Pamela,but June told her sister that Sheila was tired and was going to bed,so I'm taking that as what was happening at that stage.
Typical behaviour of someone who was as ill as Sheila was. Jeremy could easily have lied,don't you think,and said that she was ranting,screaming and shouting ? It might have gone in his favour,though he wouldn't have thought about that because he was telling the truth.
Sheila could possibly have been trying to pick an argument before Pamela rang,but June isn't going to say that in earshot of Sheila,is she ?
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I notice that the subject of " skunk " ( powerful cannabis ) has been raised again with it's concerns of causing psychosis ::)
Long-term use of cannabis alone causes the same thing as most of us know.
Both sons of a friend of mine have been in mental institutions for a number of years through taking cannabis from an early age.One of the boys flung himself through a window at the home of his parents.
The parents had been to Hell and back during the teenage years of their sons,and are now resigned to the fact that they no longer exist as part of the family.
Neville and June were a lot older than my friend at the time of Sheilas' drug-taking,so would have been less tolerant of her behaviour and they themselves must have found the going very tough as well as worrying,causing their own health to deteriorate,as latterly,Neville had spoken to someone about his concerns for his wifes' mental health,as she had not long been treated herself for another bout of depression.
People should be made aware that this drug not only causes damage to the individual,but those people surrounded,family,friends,etc. Years ago there was a lot of shame surrounding those who took drugs,and although there is still a certain amount of shame,it's more out in the open which is a good thing because those who take drugs are more likely to get the right support,something that Sheila didn't get. Families have been torn apart by the use of cannabis,and people are killed in the process of obtaining drugs or by their effects.
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Typical behaviour of someone who was as ill as Sheila was. Jeremy could easily have lied,don't you think,and said that she was ranting,screaming and shouting ? It might have gone in his favour,though he wouldn't have thought about that because he was telling the truth.
Sheila could possibly have been trying to pick an argument before Pamela rang,but June isn't going to say that in earshot of Sheila,is she ?
Jeremy couldn't be sure that June didn't speak to anyone after he left. If he said she was ranting and raving but June didn't mention it - that would be suspicious. Jeremy is alleged to have said 'you should tell the truth where possible' - too many lies get you caught out. What is interesting to me is that although he was present at the 'discussion' he gives few details of what was said!
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Jeremy couldn't be sure that June didn't speak to anyone after he left. If he said she was ranting and raving but June didn't mention it - that would be suspicious. Jeremy is alleged to have said 'you should tell the truth where possible' - too many lies get you caught out. What is interesting to me is that although he was present at the 'discussion' he gives few details of what was said!
The discussion must have been so interesting to him that it went in one ear and out of the other,especially if it had been a repeat of what he'd heard before.
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If Jeremy had really listened in,he could have had a field day making all kinds of things up,but he didn't.
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Can anyone explain how a" trick of the light " can leave fingerprints ?
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How would this case have panned out without JM ?
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Can anyone explain how a" trick of the light " can leave fingerprints ?
Also,is there a copy of any sort regarding the message sent to the firearms team about this " trick of the light " ? Because as sure as Hell after having seen this apparition,the team were sent out ------Why.?
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Dependant on their being a message---------------there's Jeremy's alibi straight away. Case closed.
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Scipio (and anyone): do you have any comment to make on the opinions of David Fowler, Ljubiga Dragovic and Marcella Fiero?http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/feb/04/jeremy-bamber-murders-ballistics-challenge
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/feb/04/jeremy-bamber-murders-ballistics-challenge
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More miscellaneous notes: Is Sheila really in this category..http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-31526060
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Scipio (and anyone): do you have any comment to make on the opinions of David Fowler, Ljubiga Dragovic and Marcella Fiero?http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/feb/04/jeremy-bamber-murders-ballistics-challenge
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/feb/04/jeremy-bamber-murders-ballistics-challenge
It's a pity this work was never completed - it's no surprise as I never believed the silencer was used.
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Jeremy couldn't be sure that June didn't speak to anyone after he left. If he said she was ranting and raving but June didn't mention it - that would be suspicious. Jeremy is alleged to have said 'you should tell the truth where possible' - too many lies get you caught out. What is interesting to me is that although he was present at the 'discussion' he gives few details of what was said!
He talks alot about the weapon, why he got it out - where he left it - the bullets - where he left them - how many - things like this.
But the actual conversation around the supper table the details are very few - I agree. And the ones that he has given just seem a bit contrived.
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Scipio (and anyone): do you have any comment to make on the opinions of David Fowler, Ljubiga Dragovic and Marcella Fiero?http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/feb/04/jeremy-bamber-murders-ballistics-challenge
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/feb/04/jeremy-bamber-murders-ballistics-challenge
I already addressed this last week in various threads. I would like to see the exact report because there is a significant disagreement over whether it had any references to the burns on Nevill's back or just Sheila's gunshot wounds. With respect to Sheila he wrote:
"In my professional opinion, the complex just described of the lower entrance and two abrasions is consistent with the rifle not having a silencer."
What complex is he referring to? He is referring to Vanezis' description of the non-fatal wound.
Vanezis decided both wounds had abrasion collars and described such in his report, though he failed to mention the size of the collars. An abrasion collar is formed around an entrance wound by the bullet scraping against the skin. Push you finger into you skin and watch it indent around your finger. The skin does that when a bullet strikes and thus instead of just making a hole the skin around the hole brushes against the sides of the bullet and becomes bruised. The wounds also had some blackening which is consistent with contact and intermediate gunshots.
Vanezis wrote:
"The lower wound was situated on the right side of the neck, 2" below the upper wound and slightly more later. It measured 1/4" in diameter, had slight bruising at the edges as well as apparent residue marks. The surrounding skin area was also bruised."
Fowler read Vanezis' report and decided that to him slight bruising and residue marks amounts to Vanezis finding a muzzle imprint. If Vanezis found a muzzle imprint he would have stated it, a bullet abrasion collar (the bruising) and residue marks (sooting) is very different from a muzzle imprint. So Fowler decided he knows what Vanezis meant better than Vanezis himself just by reading the report not based on Fowler independently inspecting and evaluating the wound. Fowler decided that there was two rings around the wound that amounted to a muzzle imprint. Where did he get the BS about 2 rings? He is counting the slight bruising around the edges of the entrance wound as 1 ring and the bruising beyond the edges of the entrance wound as another ring and says this is a muzzle imprint from a barrel.
Did he see the wound in person? No Did he see good closeups? No he decided Vanezis description is a muzzle imprint though Vanezis himself just saw a bullet abrasion ring.
Worse yet he declared that he muzzle imprint is consistent with the barrel of the rifle as opposed to a muzzle imprint of the moderator even though Vanezis provided no measurement of the size of the bruising only the size of the entrance wound itself. Mind you this wound was not even determined to be a contact wound. It was the fatal wound that was determined to for sure be a contact wound.
The fatal wound was described as follows:
"The upper wound was situated 1 3/4" below and to the right side of the point of the chin. It measured 3/16" in diameter and had slight bruising and residue marks surrounding it."
So the fatal wound- the contact wound- doesn't mention 2 sets of bruises. So the fatal wound doesn't lend itself to the warped interpretation he provided for the non-fatal wound.
Fowler had no basis at all to make the claims he did. He just made up the notion that there was a muzzle imprint and that the muzzle imprint that he made up was consistent with the muzzle of the rifle not the moderator.
It happens all the time with supposed experts. They say whatever the person who pays them would like to hear without regard to reality.
All 3 of them have egg on their face and that is why the COA doesn't consider their claims to have any value at all.
It would be like me writing that I witnessed a red sports car run a red light and crash into a black BMW but then someone saying, "based on his description of events the black BMW driver was at fault for getting in the way of the sportscar."
Vanezis is the one who saw the wounds and would be in a position to decide what he saw. Fowler was didn't look at the wounds and thus in no position to contradict Vanezis and decide that what Vanezis saw wasn't a bullet abrasion collar but rather a muzzle imprint.
A muzzle imprint CAN only happen during the course of a contact wound being delivered but doesn't ALWAYS happen. Thus when there is a muzzle imprint it is useful evidence of what weapon was used but the absence of a muzzle imprint doesn't mean a wound wasn't a contact wound because a muzzle imprint is not always left.
There was no muzzle imprint discovered on Sheila by Vanezis. The wounds had bullet abrasion collars and some sooting, that's it. Jeremy's defense team got some experts to make up that the description of the lower wound sounded to them like a muzzle imprint of the barrel. If Vanezis had found a muzzle imprint not only would he have noted it he would have used such as a basis to say the lower wound was definitely a contact wound because a muzzle imprint is only left by contact wounds.
So Fowler's claims are little more than BS.
Now if Vanesis had assessed in his report that there was a muzzle imprint and that the diameter of the imprint was 1/2" that could potentially implicate the barrel of the rifle sans moderator. But if the rifle were pressed tight into the skin there would be additional larger rings around that from the threading. This was not apparent from the pig skin tests because aside from the fact pig skin doesn't behave exactly like living human tissue, the pig skin tests featured skin just handing like rugs so it would give. Pushing into a human neck would result in the threads touching the neck skin.
So a muzzle imprint from the rifle itself would feature a 1/2" imprint with one or more larger rings around it.
A muzzle imprint from the moderator could feature a ring from just the hole or a ring from the entire face. The hole was roughly 3/8" in diameter and entire face was roughly 13/16" in diameter. So the difference in diameter between the entire face of the moderator and the muzzle of the rifle (ignoring the threads) is only 5/16". So even if there were a muzzle imprint the only way to try differentiating would be very careful measuring of the diameter. No muzzle imprint was described so Vanezis didn't find one to measure but even if Vanezis found one if he didn't describe the measurements and simply noted he found a muzzle imprint that would be useless because the main differentiation would be to look for a difference of 5/16" of an inch. Uneven things on a gun often leave tell tale marks such as sights, and the threads I discussed. The face of the moderator was flat so would have nothing likely to leave any such marks. The rifle had the threaded barrel and iron sights that potentially could have left a mark so would be something else to look for. Nothing is described that fits as a muzzle imprint of the gun or the moderator though.
My most simple challenge to anyone who wants to use Fowler's assessment is how can he say there was a muzzle imprint of the diameter of 1/2" based on the quotes posted above from Vanezis? Where did Vanezis describe anything related to the non-fatal wound as being 1/2" in diameter? The only numbers he provided was that the entrance wound itself was 1/4" in diameter. He provided no measurements related the how far the bruising extended or the sooting. So how could Fowler decide the bruising had a diameter of 1/2" as opposed to 13/16"? He lacked the ability to make such a conclusion since Vanezis didn't provide the measurement.
Not only did Fowler decide that Vanezis erroneously assessed a muzzle imprint to be a bullet abrasion collar, he decided he knew the size though Vanezis didn't provide the measurement of the abrasion collar.
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How would this case have panned out without JM ?
Without JM the evidence still proves Jeremy to be guilty. The evidence proves Sheila didn't kill herself ro anyone else. That is what sinks Jeremy because it means his call from Nevill was BS and the way he knew about the trouble was he was involved. Julie's testimony about him calling her before police and about his long term planning was damaging but without it there still was enough to convict him.
That is why her testimony is rarely even mentioned by either side when debating it was superfluous.
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He talks alot about the weapon, why he got it out - where he left it - the bullets - where he left them - how many - things like this.
But the actual conversation around the supper table the details are very few - I agree. And the ones that he has given just seem a bit contrived.
So what's wrong in having been precise about what Jeremy did with the rifle,etc ? Wouldn't it have been said in all honesty,as he was obviously concentrating more on that than listening intensely to something that he'd probably heard a dozen times. ?
He could have lied and said he'd put everything back into the cupboard as nobody would have been any the wiser.
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So what's wrong in having been precise about what Jeremy did with the rifle,etc ? Wouldn't it have been said in all honesty,as he was obviously concentrating more on that than listening intensely to something that he'd probably heard a dozen times. ?
He could have lied and said he'd put everything back into the cupboard as nobody would have been any the wiser.
His story of getting the gun out, going back to the kitchen with just the magazine and bullets in order to load the magazine where Sheila could see him doing it, and leaving it out makes no sense. His parents leaving the gun. loaded magazine and bullets out makes not sense either. Worse yet the there were too many bullets for his story to be true, he staged the bullets after the murders which proves he was there and made up this story of leaving the gun and bullets out. The story was contrived to pretend that Sheila went crazy and then found a weapon of opportunity because she would not have gone looking for it herself.
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This image helps demonstrate the difference between bullet abrasion collars when the bullet entered straight versus at an angle.
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_1wtadqGaaPs/TFFJ6F967NI/AAAAAAAALgc/WXnZ7dzoo9k/tmp4B23_thumb_thumb.jpg?imgmax=800)
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I think people will find this of interest:
"When a bullet hits the skin surface, it causes indentation before perforation. Following perforation, elasticity causes the skin to recoil, and the resulting round, circular defect is of a slightly smaller diameter to that of the bullet. An accurate estimation of the calibre size cannot therefore be made from measuring the radius of the wound, unlike in the movies!
The mechanical passage of the bullet through the skin causes abrasion, and the circular defect is lined by a rim of abrasion – the abrasion ‘collar’. This tends to dry out like all abrasions, and may be easier to discern with the passage of time (more useful to pathologists).
Lead alloy based bullets and ‘dirty’ bullets may also leave a greasy rim (‘bullet wipe’) around the entrance defect (Besant-Matthews 2000, DiMaio 1999, Dana and DiMaio 2003)."
http://www.forensicmed.co.uk/wounds/firearms/gunshot-wounds-rifled-weapons/
Some might find other things posted on the site of interest as well but I will leave it up to those interested to read it all instead of copying everything.
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So what's wrong in having been precise about what Jeremy did with the rifle,etc ? Wouldn't it have been said in all honesty,as he was obviously concentrating more on that than listening intensely to something that he'd probably heard a dozen times. ?
He could have lied and said he'd put everything back into the cupboard as nobody would have been any the wiser.
He said the discussion was going on while he was eating too - while he was in the room but he is very short on details. He didn't have to mention the rifle at all, but it formed part of the alleged convo he later states happened in the phone call - it all sets a scene.
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He said the discussion was going on while he was eating too - while he was in the room but he is very short on details. He didn't have to mention the rifle at all, but it formed part of the alleged convo he later states happened in the phone call - it all sets a scene.
Since the convo is the alleged motivation for Sheila to commit the crime he should have been interested in providing more details. Who knows if the convo happened a different time than when he claims it did. Speaking to her aunt in a calm manner shortly after prevented him from claiming she got to upset at the time though. Since the convo was about part time fostering not actually forcing her to give up the kids that is why he didn't go into much detail. A more detailed look reveals she would not be bothered by it.
He knew that was insufficient to convince Colin so he lied and told Colin that they were going to have her give up custody. That stuck in his mind because his permission would be needed to give custody to someone else and he felt they had no right to do that. If he told that lie to police it would have unraveled so he provided little detail about the actual substance of the discussion.
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People are very quiet about Fowler now....
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I wonder if it's because Fowler was right about marks made on the skin/s of the deceased were marks from the end of the muzzle and NOT a silencer.
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I wonder if it's because Fowler was right about marks made on the skin/s of the deceased were marks from the end of the muzzle and NOT a silencer.
No the quiet is because I have demonstrated Fowler had no basis for the speculation he engaged in and people would rather not discuss it further.
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No the quiet is because I have demonstrated Fowler had no basis for the speculation he engaged in and people would rather not discuss it further.
How did I know you'd take the opposing view ? ::)
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Among the exhibits are the following newspaper reports :
Evening Gazette-19.9.85,
Mr Bamber slumped in a pool of blood by the telephone.Twins upstairs in one bedroom shot as they slept. Mrs Bamber in Master bedroom lying in a pool of blood.Sheila near to Mrs Bamber and had shot herself in the head with 20 shot rifle laying between her and her mother.
The Star-11.9.85,
Mr Bamber found in the kitchen.Twins dead in bed.Sheila and Mrs Bamber slumped together in main bedroom.
Maldon and Burnham Standard-12.9.85,
Mr Bamber slumped in chair.Mrs Bamber and Sheila in a bedroom with gun lying between them.Twins dead in their bed.
Sunday Express-15.9.85,
Sheila and Mother found in same bedroom.Mr Bamber found sitting in the Hall. Twins found in separate beds in another room.
Daily Mirror-17.9.85,
Twins shot dead while in their beds.
Evening Echo-18.9.85,Mrs Bamber found on a bed in an upstairs room, with bloodstained handmarks on her body showing she was moved.
Daily Mail-20.9.85,
Mr Bamber slumped forward in Hall.Mrs Bamber and Sheila in another room.Twins in bedroom.
Sunday Observer-22.9.85,
Twins shot while asleep.Mrs Bamber found in room nearby.Mr Bamber found in the Hallway.
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Among the exhibits are the following newspaper reports :
Evening Gazette-19.9.85,
Mr Bamber slumped in a pool of blood by the telephone.Twins upstairs in one bedroom shot as they slept. Mrs Bamber in Master bedroom lying in a pool of blood.Sheila near to Mrs Bamber and had shot herself in the head with 20 shot rifle laying between her and her mother.
The Star-11.9.85,
Mr Bamber found in the kitchen.Twins dead in bed.Sheila and Mrs Bamber slumped together in main bedroom.
Maldon and Burnham Standard-12.9.85,
Mr Bamber slumped in chair.Mrs Bamber and Sheila in a bedroom with gun lying between them.Twins dead in their bed.
Sunday Express-15.9.85,
Sheila and Mother found in same bedroom.Mr Bamber found sitting in the Hall. Twins found in separate beds in another room.
Daily Mirror-17.9.85,
Twins shot dead while in their beds.
Evening Echo-18.9.85,Mrs Bamber found on a bed in an upstairs room, with bloodstained handmarks on her body showing she was moved.
Daily Mail-20.9.85,
Mr Bamber slumped forward in Hall.Mrs Bamber and Sheila in another room.Twins in bedroom.
Sunday Observer-22.9.85,
Twins shot while asleep.Mrs Bamber found in room nearby.Mr Bamber found in the Hallway.
Reporters getting details wrong is of little use.
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Hall had been written 4 times,which paints a very distressing picture if this was found to be true,as it tells me that the poor man was making his way to the front door.
Where's Adam who believes everything that's written down ? A lot of what people know,or knew about the case, has been gleaned from the press,so just these few newspaper reports all differ in some way,hence why the case is misleading.
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Hall had been written 4 times,which paints a very distressing picture if this was found to be true,as it tells me that the poor man was making his way to the front door.
Where's Adam who believes everything that's written down ? A lot of what people know,or knew about the case, has been gleaned from the press,so just these few newspaper reports all differ in some way,hence why the case is misleading.
The testimony of all who went in the house as well as the photos show his body in the kitchen. He went into the kitchen either planning to try to go out the kitchen door, planning to get a weapon or to try to subdue the killer and prevent the killer from reloading.
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Which brings me to the way in which the press handled the case as a whole from beginning to end. They're NOT to be believed and hampered the case in such a way as to sway ( successfully ) towards the public and as a consequence,the prosecution too. It all had a knock-on effect.
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Among the exhibits are the following newspaper reports :
Evening Gazette-19.9.85,
Mr Bamber slumped in a pool of blood by the telephone.Twins upstairs in one bedroom shot as they slept. Mrs Bamber in Master bedroom lying in a pool of blood.Sheila near to Mrs Bamber and had shot herself in the head with 20 shot rifle laying between her and her mother.
The Star-11.9.85,
Mr Bamber found in the kitchen.Twins dead in bed.Sheila and Mrs Bamber slumped together in main bedroom.
Maldon and Burnham Standard-12.9.85,
Mr Bamber slumped in chair.Mrs Bamber and Sheila in a bedroom with gun lying between them.Twins dead in their bed.
Sunday Express-15.9.85,
Sheila and Mother found in same bedroom.Mr Bamber found sitting in the Hall. Twins found in separate beds in another room.
Daily Mirror-17.9.85,
Twins shot dead while in their beds.
Evening Echo-18.9.85,Mrs Bamber found on a bed in an upstairs room, with bloodstained handmarks on her body showing she was moved.
Daily Mail-20.9.85,
Mr Bamber slumped forward in Hall.Mrs Bamber and Sheila in another room.Twins in bedroom.
Sunday Observer-22.9.85,
Twins shot while asleep.Mrs Bamber found in room nearby.Mr Bamber found in the Hallway.
Evening Echo-18.9.85,Mrs Bamber found on a bed in an upstairs room, with bloodstained handmarks on her body showing she was moved.??
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Evening Echo-18.9.85,Mrs Bamber found on a bed in an upstairs room, with bloodstained handmarks on her body showing she was moved.??
I can't see something like this having been printed without prior knowledge ?
I can go along with that because of June's position by the door having been first in a sitting position against the bedroom door,using it for support. Slightly up the door,are " brushed " blood stains which appear that she was propped up before being found flat on the floor.
This can't happen. If the woman had died leaning against the door,she'd have slumped sideways,and not splayed out like the photograph shows.
Yes,the poor woman would have been placed in the position where she was found.
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As per,this is being ignored. Jeremy bashing posts remain up top !
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I can't see something like this having been printed without prior knowledge ?
I can go along with that because of June's position by the door having been first in a sitting position against the bedroom door,using it for support. Slightly up the door,are " brushed " blood stains which appear that she was propped up before being found flat on the floor.
This can't happen. If the woman had died leaning against the door,she'd have slumped sideways,and not splayed out like the photograph shows.
Yes,the poor woman would have been placed in the position where she was found.
Shall we all fathom out how the bloodied prints were found on June? Not prints------------handmarks.
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Shall we all fathom out how the bloodied prints were found on June? Not prints------------handmarks.
Wasn't there also a handprint around or on Sheila's neck ?
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Shall we all fathom out how the bloodied prints were found on June? Not prints------------handmarks.
Given the amount of differing reports in various papers, some/most(?) are likely to be wrong.
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Given the amount of differing reports in various papers, some/most(?) are likely to be wrong.
The thing is though,how would they have arrived at such a remark if they hadn't already been told by someone at close enough quarters to have seen/noticed ? This was a deceased lady to which had been made news of,but without the details.Why mention it if it wasn't true,as the media had the relatives to consider ?
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What makes this tragedy worse is the fact that two children were killed,and naturally public outcries and sympathies will be for their losses,and rightly so as I abhor any crime against a child,it's evil.
So in view of that aspect,unless a miracle happens,Jeremy will be staying put. It's a very emotive subject and one which will be more than difficult to understand even should Jeremy walk away a genuinely free man, because people will still vilify him as they did with Lindy Chamberlain even with the solid proof which was found,exonerating her. It was just the word of Lindy and her then husband against the world,yet folk knew that dingo's were capable of taking away a small baby. It's as though people were willing her to be guilty,much the same as in this case.
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I can't see something like this having been printed without prior knowledge ?
I can go along with that because of June's position by the door having been first in a sitting position against the bedroom door,using it for support. Slightly up the door,are " brushed " blood stains which appear that she was propped up before being found flat on the floor.
This can't happen. If the woman had died leaning against the door,she'd have slumped sideways,and not splayed out like the photograph shows.
Yes,the poor woman would have been placed in the position where she was found.
So are you allowing that the sexual abuse of the bodies, which Mike has claimed, actually occurred?
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So are you allowing that the sexual abuse of the bodies, which Mike has claimed, actually occurred?
Honestly April.Did I say that ? No I didn't mention sexual abuse at all.What the Hell's the matter with you ? Can't you read what I'm writing ? It's your weird mind,not mine.
My thoughts were entirely different to yours in that I was thinking of Sheila dragging her poor mother about.
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Bloody Hell April,how about adding Deviant,then I've got the full set,Perverted Sexual Deviant. How much further do you intend to go with this ?
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lookout you are none of those things just a lovely lady who speaks her mind and I must add you play a large part in this forum :-*
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Aww,thankyou Susan, I know I'm not those things as well :-*. I also know how far I can go too. :-*
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Honestly April.Did I say that ? No I didn't mention sexual abuse at all.What the Hell's the matter with you ? Can't you read what I'm writing ? It's your weird mind,not mine.
My thoughts were entirely different to yours in that I was thinking of Sheila dragging her poor mother about.
Lookout, did I SAY you said it????????????? I asked the question because it looked, from your post, as if you believe that June's body had been moved. If the murderer didn't do it and it seems to have been established that the doctor didn't, who does it leave, and WHY would they do it? Mike has offered an explanation. I asked if you agreed. Yes or No would have sufficed as an answer.
NO, it didn't occur to me that it might have been Sheila because I'm not entirely certain that ANYONE did.
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lookout you are one tough lady but you hurt too just like the rest of us. Just found the book complete with coffee stains ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Bloody Hell April,how about adding Deviant,then I've got the full set,Perverted Sexual Deviant. How much further do you intend to go with this ?
And I seem to have a whole coterie queuing up to stick knives in every time I say anything. I wonder how much further they in tend to go.
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And I seem to have a whole coterie queuing up to stick knives in every time I say anything. I wonder how much further they in tend to go.
Stop feeling sorry for yourself. I've been castigated for the past 3 years.See if I care.
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Stop feeling sorry for yourself. I've been castigated for the past 3 years.See if I care.
Oh, I'm not playing victim here Lookout, NOR am I using vulgar expletives at those who challenge me/ don't share my views. I'm simply stating a fact which worries me about as much as it worries you.
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Given the amount of differing reports in various papers, some/most(?) are likely to be wrong.
At various times defenders have suggested there are marks on June's neck that could be left by someone trying to choke her but left no fingerprints in the blood. If that were true then it means someone wearing gloves did it. Since there were no gloves found for Sheila to use this is harmful to the defense not helpful. When this is brought up the claim is usually is dropped pretty fast.
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Oh, I'm not playing victim here Lookout, NOR am I using vulgar expletives at those who challenge me/ don't share my views. I'm simply stating a fact which worries me about as much as it worries you.
How did you expect me to reply to you after having been accused of there being sexual innuendo's in my post,when clearly there weren't ? I don't take very kindly to accusations anyway,particularly those sort.
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How did you expect me to reply to you after having been accused of there being sexual innuendo's in my post,when clearly there weren't ? I don't take very kindly to accusations anyway,particularly those sort.
WHERE did I imply that there were sexual innuendos in your post. WHERE did I make the accusation? My words said "So are you allowing that..........." NOT, I repeat, NOT "You are allowing that............" and finished with a QUESTION MARK, which when I was at school, denoted that a question had been asked. If you CHOOSE to read it differently it says more of YOUR mind set than mine, but just for the record, I'LL say again,. I DIDN'T accuse you of sexual innuendo
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WHERE did I imply that there were sexual innuendos in your post. WHERE did I make the accusation? My words said "So are you allowing that..........." NOT, I repeat, NOT "You are allowing that............" and finished with a QUESTION MARK, which when I was at school, denoted that a question had been asked. If you CHOOSE to read it differently it says more of YOUR mind set than mine, but just for the record, I'LL say again,. I DIDN'T accuse you of sexual innuendo
Just go back and read your posts on this thread when I spoke of June and the handprints.
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Just go back and read your posts on this thread when I spoke of June and the handprints.
I don't understand the relevance but bloody vindictive comes to mind. Did you trawl through everything I've previously said to find ELSE something to throw at me. There's a feeding frenzy going on here. Are you getting close to feeling satiated -that means FULL- NOW accuse me of being condescending.
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I don't understand the relevance but bloody vindictive comes to mind. Did you trawl through everything I've previously said to find ELSE something to throw at me. There's a feeding frenzy going on here. Are you getting close to feeling satiated -that means FULL- NOW accuse me of being condescending.
Well there's something that I've never been called in all my life-----------vindictive. Maybe you're mixing it up with the truth ? Which is the only thing I understand. I don't do trawling either,rather leave it to you so that you can pick holes in whatever takes your fancy.
Just to reiterate,you wrote,quote," So are you allowing that the sexual abuse,which Mike has claimed,actually occurred ?",unquote.
Now please tell me what that was all about when I hadn't even mentioned anything pertaining to sex at all ?. Only to bloodied handprints on June's nightdress. There's no connection at all.
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Still fighting I see. ::)
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Stiol fighting I see. ::)
When you haven't got a side-kick for back-up,you've got to battle on as best you can,and that's what I did.
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Well there's something that I've never been called in all my life-----------vindictive. Maybe you're mixing it up with the truth ? Which is the only thing I understand. I don't do trawling either,rather leave it to you so that you can pick holes in whatever takes your fancy.
Just to reiterate,you wrote,quote," So are you allowing that the sexual abuse,which Mike has claimed,actually occurred ?",unquote.
Now please tell me what that was all about when I hadn't even mentioned anything pertaining to sex at all ?. Only to bloodied handprints on June's nightdress. There's no connection at all.
YES,you daft mare!!!!! I asked a question. I DIDN'T make a statement!!! WHY are you trying to make more of this than there is. I have NEVER had a problem with you. Perhaps I've been deluding myself in believing that you didn't have a problem with me. I don't MIND what you believe.Feel free. as do I, to believe what you wish.
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I think there must be something in the air tonight and perhaps some of us are carrying our private problems onto the forum (in my case at least) So I apologise for my swear words which were said in anger and probably had nothing to do with anyone on the forum nessesarily. So lets all kiss and make up shall we?.....well make up at least.
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Mr Gee well done you are a very honourable man lets group hug and kiss kiss :-* :-* :-* :-*
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I think there must be something in the air tonight and perhaps some of us are carrying our private problems onto the forum (in my case at least) So I apologise for my swear words which were said in anger and probably had nothing to do with anyone on the forum nessesarily. So lets all kiss and make up shall we?.....well make up at least.
Well done.
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I think there must be something in the air tonight and perhaps some of us are carrying our private problems onto the forum (in my case at least) So I apologise for my swear words which were said in anger and probably had nothing to do with anyone on the forum nessesarily. So lets all kiss and make up shall we?.....well make up at least.
Well I'm kissing no bugger ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Well I'm kissing no bugger ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Me neither. I'm English I never hug.
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Patti hello bet if they offered you a drink of beer you would ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D a pint of course.
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Guys I hate hugs unless you are a cat ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Patti hello bet if they offered you a drink of beer you would ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D a pint of course.
Ha! I'm anybodies when if there is a drink involved ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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My name is Alias, I hug and kiss a lot, I´m Icelandic. ;D
Is this beginning to sound like an AA meeting? LOL
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Its beginning to sound a bit indulgent tell you the truth?
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Alias if you are a cat I will hug, if not no chance hahahaha but love you anyway ;D
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Alias and you like men in green undies ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Alias and you like men in green undies ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Not really! Remember, I slammed the door on his face! ;D
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Patti we all know that you sell yourself for a glass of ale ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Not really! Remember, I slammed the door on his face! ;D
Someone showed up at your door in just green underwear?
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Scipio yes he did and he was French hahaha
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Scipio yes he did and he was French hahaha
He was actually good looking - but a sicko in green underpants. He knew my husband was there too, we had talked to him briefly in the corridor of the hotel. :o
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Scipio yes he did and he was French hahaha
Oh la la.. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Alias that should tell you the effect you have on Frenchmen wearing green undies ;D ;D ;D ;D you were keeping the poor man awake or maybe he wanted to borrow a ciggy ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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He was actually good looking - but a sicko in green underpants. He knew my husband was there too, we had talked to him briefly in the corridor of the hotel. :o
What did he want? Is he a sicko just because he was in his underwear or for what he wanted? Was he bi and wanted a threesome or you never asked what he wanted and just slammed the door? Could be worse he could have been a nudist...
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When somebody knocks on your door in a hotel late at night, wearing nothing but green underpants, and when you open the door, just stands there without saying a word, you know that something kinky is going on in that person´s head!
I just slammed the door. Green is not my colour! ;D
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Scipio think the guy had run out of ciggies and wanted to borrow one ;D ;D ;D ;D not nice to shut the door in his face Alias could have said I don't smoke then shut the door ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Scipio think the guy had run out of ciggies and wanted to borrow one ;D ;D ;D ;D not nice to shut the door in his face Alias could have said I don't smoke then shut the door ;D ;D ;D ;D
You would have invited him inside! ;D
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Alias did he have whiskers and a tail if so he would have been pulled in on to the bed ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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the funny thing is if we all met up - MOST of us would probably get on famously :)
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Jan you are quite right I think that too :)
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When somebody knocks on your door in a hotel late at night, wearing nothing but green underpants, and when you open the door, just stands there without saying a word, you know that something kinky is going on in that person´s head!
I just slammed the door. Green is not my colour! ;D
I remember when we went to this big house with someone and knocked on the door and went in only to be met with this man with a mad look on his fact.
Yes you've guessed it. He was a psychiatrist. ;D
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I remember when we went to this big house with someone and knocked on the door and went in only to be met with this man with a mad look on his fact.
Yes you've guessed it. He was a psychiatrist. ;D
Of course he would have a mad look on his face, you barging into his house in only underpants! :P
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When somebody knocks on your door in a hotel late at night, wearing nothing but green underpants, and when you open the door, just stands there without saying a word, you know that something kinky is going on in that person´s head!
I just slammed the door. Green is not my colour! ;D
How long did he stand their silently before you slammed the door? Did you give him a chance to talk for a while?
I guess St Patty's Day isn't your holiday if you don't like green. You would not like our Class A uniforms either while we are noted for our Blues (the best uniform of any military in the world) the jacket and pants of our standard service uniform are green.
This was what I usually had to wear:
https://www.easterncostume.com/wardrobe/military/marine/officer/service-a
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How long did he stand their silently before you slammed the door? Did you give him a chance to talk for a while?
I guess St Patty's Day isn't your holiday if you don't like green. You would not like our Class A uniforms either while we are noted for our Blues (the best uniform of any military in the world) the jacket and pants of our standard service uniform are green.
This was what I usually had to wear:
https://www.easterncostume.com/wardrobe/military/marine/officer/service-a
Sartorial elegance............................but I only read "easterncostume" and was expecting a somewhat different type of elegance :(
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Can anyone explain how a suicide note which was originally on the bed side table in Sheila's room,suddenly appeared inside the pages of the blue Bible which was found in June's bedroom?
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Can anyone explain how a suicide note which was originally on the bed side table in Sheila's room,suddenly appeared inside the pages of the blue Bible which was found in June's bedroom?
I didn't know that it had been confirmed as such. There was the suggestion that it was an aide de memoire for June's bible class.
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Can anyone explain how a suicide note which was originally on the bed side table in Sheila's room,suddenly appeared inside the pages of the blue Bible which was found in June's bedroom?
I don´t think there is any proof of a suicide note.
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I didn't know that it had been confirmed as such. There was the suggestion that it was an aide de memoire for June's bible class.
Though it hadn't been photographed,as it had " vanished " before photos were taken ,it was referenced DC1470.A second version had a note attached-DRH/42. ?
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I don´t think there is any proof of a suicide note.
Whether or not there was ever a suicide note or not,what was found inside the pages of the Bible had been on Sheila's bed-side table ?
Like the rifle in the window which suddenly flew through the air and landed upon Sheila :)
Did these phenomena occur when there was a sighting at the window ? Was it a simultaneous move ?
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Whether or not there was ever a suicide note or not,what was found inside the pages of the Bible had been on Sheila's bed-side table ?
Like the rifle in the window which suddenly flew through the air and landed upon Sheila :)
Did these phenomena occur when there was a sighting at the window ? Was it a simultaneous move ?
I have seen this mentioned, but I am not sure where it originates from. Perhaps you know more about it.
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I have seen this mentioned, but I am not sure where it originates from. Perhaps you know more about it.
It's more than likely a question that Hammersley,himself ( SOC ) wasn't prepared to answer.?
Not sure if the Dickinson report would enlighten us.
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Whether or not there was ever a suicide note or not,what was found inside the pages of the Bible had been on Sheila's bed-side table ?
Like the rifle in the window which suddenly flew through the air and landed upon Sheila :)
Did these phenomena occur when there was a sighting at the window ? Was it a simultaneous move ?
This is a perfect example of how you distort claims. The police saw something by a window that they thought could be the barrel of a rifle. This object never moved the entire time the raid team was inside. So it obviously wasn't the murder weapon and there is no evidence it was the air rifle even. A broom or many other things can be described as appearing to look like a barrel of a rifle. The people who saw this didn't even know what the murder weapon looked like at the time they were looking at the window nor did they know when they made their statement because they didn't even go inside the house afterwards.
Had there been a suicide note found police would have noted such right away in support of their theory that Sheila was responsible. The paper in the bible simply had religious crap written on it so far what can be seen and it was presumably written by June.
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This is a perfect example of how you distort claims. The police saw something by a window that they thought could be the barrel of a rifle. This object never moved the entire time the raid team was inside. So it obviously wasn't the murder weapon and there is no evidence it was the air rifle even. A broom or many other things can be described as appearing to look like a barrel of a rifle. The people who saw this didn't even know what the murder weapon looked like at the time they were looking at the window nor did they know when they made their statement because they didn't even go inside the house afterwards.
Had there been a suicide note found police would have noted such right away in support of their theory that Sheila was responsible. The paper in the bible simply had religious crap written on it so far what can be seen and it was presumably written by June.
I haven't distorted anything.
Just wait and see who'll be wrong in his calculations/theories/so-called facts,etc etc.
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This is a perfect example of how you distort claims. The police saw something by a window that they thought could be the barrel of a rifle. This object never moved the entire time the raid team was inside. So it obviously wasn't the murder weapon and there is no evidence it was the air rifle even. A broom or many other things can be described as appearing to look like a barrel of a rifle. The people who saw this didn't even know what the murder weapon looked like at the time they were looking at the window nor did they know when they made their statement because they didn't even go inside the house afterwards.
Had there been a suicide note found police would have noted such right away in support of their theory that Sheila was responsible. The paper in the bible simply had religious crap written on it so far what can be seen and it was presumably written by June.
I'm sure the relatives would have been told IF there had been a note - to shut them up!
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I haven't distorted anything.
Just wait and see who'll be wrong in his calculations/theories/so-called facts,etc etc.
You took a claim that police saw an item that never moved and thought it could be the barrel of a rifle and you transformed this to definitely the barrel of the murder weapon which flew from the window to her body. That is distorting in my world.
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You took a claim that police saw an item that never moved and thought it could be the barrel of a rifle and you transformed this to definitely the barrel of the murder weapon which flew from the window to her body. That is distorting in my world.
It's physical movement in mine.
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I haven't distorted anything.
Just wait and see who'll be wrong in his calculations/theories/so-called facts,etc etc.
You make it sound as if the entire case is going to be entirely re-written, that numerous heads are going to roll, and jobs, pensions and honours lost.
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You took a claim that police saw an item that never moved and thought it could be the barrel of a rifle and you transformed this to definitely the barrel of the murder weapon which flew from the window to her body. That is distorting in my world.
Never mind scipio one day she will be as clever as you in ::) distorting things.
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You make it sound as if the entire case is going to be entirely re-written, that numerous heads are going to roll, and jobs, pensions and honours lost.
Not at all.Bit of an exaggeration isn't it ?
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Not at all.Bit of an exaggeration isn't it ?
Depends what one's perspective is, I guess. For me, the more mysterious something is made to sound, the greater I expect will be the end product........................but it often turns out to be a damp squid ;D ;D
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Squib-----it is,not squid,as a squid is already damp,but if you have a damp squib ( firework ) it won't work. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Squib-----it is,not squid,as a squid is already damp,but if you have a damp squib ( firework ) it won't work. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
All squids are damp. ;D
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Squib-----it is,not squid,as a squid is already damp,but if you have a damp squib ( firework ) it won't work. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Perzakerly so :D I KNEW there was something wrong with that word. I can only describe it as not "tasting" right ;D ;D ;D
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You make it sound as if the entire case is going to be entirely re-written, that numerous heads are going to roll, and jobs, pensions and honours lost.
Well, if that's the way it's told ..... or sold.
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All squids are damp. ;D
That's what I said'll I,did'll I ? ::) Do keep up. ;D
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Well, if that's the way it's told ..... or sold.
Every time.
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That's what I said'll I,did'll I ? ::) Do keep up. ;D
Ok Olley.
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Ok Olley.
Awwww,my favourites. I've got loads of their dvd's and an old set of videos.
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Sheila was the only one,besides her parents,who knew that she was going to "lose " her sons,either than them going to live with their father and new girlfriend or to foster parents,and it didn't appear that she had much say in the matter over her future. Then to be told that she wasn't a fit mother would have been the last straw. Maybe Sheila knew herself that she DID struggle at times,but without the proper help it wasn't her fault. She was in a catch 22 situation where she took cannabis to help her through her day while she tried to manage her children and her home,and on top of her prescription drugs,it was making her worse.
People today would be supported and removal of children would be a last resort. The system as it was in the 1980's,let her down,the same as it has done today on occasion.
With the proper help and support,Sheila would have been able to have led a near-normal life.Her parents made a rod for their own backs by not speaking out about Sheila,or they'd have had the help which was so badly needed.
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Sheila was the only one,besides her parents,who knew that she was going to "lose " her sons,either than them going to live with their father and new girlfriend or to foster parents,and it didn't appear that she had much say in the matter over her future. Then to be told that she wasn't a fit mother would have been the last straw. Maybe Sheila knew herself that she DID struggle at times,but without the proper help it wasn't her fault. She was in a catch 22 situation where she took cannabis to help her through her day while she tried to manage her children and her home,and on top of her prescription drugs,it was making her worse.
People today would be supported and removal of children would be a last resort. The system as it was in the 1980's,let her down,the same as it has done today on occasion.
With the proper help and support,Sheila would have been able to have led a near-normal life.Her parents made a rod for their own backs by not speaking out about Sheila,or they'd have had the help which was so badly needed.
She had no reason to think she was going to lose them. Her husband didn't even ask for sole custody. He said he contemplated asking for sole custody and thus was spun into his actually asking. The parents contemplated asking her to agree to accept part time help with them not to give up custody. Jeremy says they actually told her their suggestion the evening before the murders occurred but we don't know for sure whether they had they actually had the chance to talk to her about such before being killed or if so when it occurred. Jeremy is not a reliable source. Jeremy lied to Colin and told him they planned to force her to give the twins up for adoption which annoyed him because he was never consulted about such and would need to allow such.
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Colin said that when he told her that he had found someone else that Sheila went quiet for the rest of the journey to WHF. One could only wonder how her mind was going, as she thought there was still hope for their marriage. Who knows, perhaps she thought that she would lose custody and as a result her children may prefer to be with this new woman and her role as their mother would be threatened somehow?
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She had no reason to think she was going to lose them. Her husband didn't even ask for sole custody. He said he contemplated asking for sole custody and thus was spun into his actually asking. The parents contemplated asking her to agree to accept part time help with them not to give up custody. Jeremy says they actually told her their suggestion the evening before the murders occurred but we don't know for sure whether they had they actually had the chance to talk to her about such before being killed or if so when it occurred. Jeremy is not a reliable source. Jeremy lied to Colin and told him they planned to force her to give the twins up for adoption which annoyed him because he was never consulted about such and would need to allow such.
To be fair, unless we know exactly what was Sheila's mind set, her fears, her guilt, we can't say with assurance "she had no reason...................." The most we can say is there doesn't appear to be a reason but allow for the fact of her PS causing irrational thoughts.
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Colin said that when he told her that he had found someone else that Sheila went quiet for the rest of the journey to WHF. One could only wonder how her mind was going, as she thought there was still hope for their marriage. Who knows, perhaps she thought that she would lose custody and as a result her children may prefer to be with this new woman and her role as their mother would be threatened somehow?
Hi Grahame, Sheila already knew he found someone else, Heather was at the party on the Saturday for the twins.
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She had no reason to think she was going to lose them. Her husband didn't even ask for sole custody. He said he contemplated asking for sole custody and thus was spun into his actually asking. The parents contemplated asking her to agree to accept part time help with them not to give up custody. Jeremy says they actually told her their suggestion the evening before the murders occurred but we don't know for sure whether they had they actually had the chance to talk to her about such before being killed or if so when it occurred. Jeremy is not a reliable source. Jeremy lied to Colin and told him they planned to force her to give the twins up for adoption which annoyed him because he was never consulted about such and would need to allow such.
Colin had discussed taking full control of the boys leaving Sheila with the option of seeing them and perhaps as she got better,having them for weekends. This he'd written in his letter to her father when he dropped them all at WHF for the last time.
Being a woman,I'd personally have torn the man's hair off his head. How insensitive ! I'd have been furious,as Sheila wasn't stupid she could understand what was going on.People spoke as though she wasn't there which was so wrong,so damaging to her,as afterall,it was people who made her ill in the first place.
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Colin had discussed taking full control of the boys leaving Sheila with the option of seeing them and perhaps as she got better,having them for weekends. This he'd written in his letter to her father when he dropped them all at WHF for the last time.
Being a woman,I'd personally have torn the man's hair off his head. How insensitive ! I'd have been furious,as Sheila wasn't stupid she could understand what was going on.People spoke as though she wasn't there which was so wrong,so damaging to her,as afterall,it was people who made her ill in the first place.
Colin never had any such discussion with Sheila or the parents. He wrote a letter that he never ended up giving to June and Nevill that discussed such.
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Colin never had any such discussion with Sheila or the parents. He wrote a letter that he never ended up giving to June and Nevill that discussed such.
Well somehow that letter surfaced and was probably at the crux of the conversation that night,whether Sheila saw it or not,Neville would have mentioned it. It was an AWFUL letter and spoke of June's behaviour towards her daughter.
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Colin never had any such discussion with Sheila or the parents. He wrote a letter that he never ended up giving to June and Nevill that discussed such.
I thought he sent a letter to Ralph about that? It's the first I've heard that he never sent it.
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I thought he sent a letter to Ralph about that? It's the first I've heard that he never sent it.
That's right Grahame, it was never sent.
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That's right Grahame, it was never sent.
But it appears he was considering it though?
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But it appears he was considering it though?
I think he used a lot of time on writing it, but in the end didn´t have the guts to give it to Nevill. As far as I remember, he brought it with him to hand over that last time he drove Sheila and the boys to the farm.
He couldn´t think of anything but getting out of there as quickly as possible. Even though the twins were literally clinging to him, crying hysterically and begging him not to go.
Worth noticing: Jeremy wasn´t there, it wasn´t him they were afraid of....
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I think he used a lot of time on writing it, but in the end didn´t have the guts to give it to Nevill. As far as I remember, he brought it with him to hand over that last time he drove Sheila and the boys to the farm.
He couldn´t think of anything but getting out of there as quickly as possible. Even though the twins were literally clinging to him, crying hysterically and begging him not to go.
Worth noticing: Jeremy wasn´t there, it wasn´t him they were afraid of....
Alia I feel that so much is being left out of the reckoning in these so called scenarios? A kind of unwillingness to consider anything that may militate against their so called evidence.
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Alia I feel that so much is being left out of the reckoning in these so called scenarios? A kind of unwillingness to consider anything that may militate against their so called evidence.
Yes, absolutely.
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But it appears he was considering it though?
I imagine so or he wouldn't have written it.
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I think he used a lot of time on writing it, but in the end didn´t have the guts to give it to Nevill. As far as I remember, he brought it with him to hand over that last time he drove Sheila and the boys to the farm.
He couldn´t think of anything but getting out of there as quickly as possible. Even though the twins were literally clinging to him, crying hysterically and begging him not to go.
Worth noticing: Jeremy wasn´t there, it wasn´t him they were afraid of....
It is not just a matter of guts giving it to them. It was a matter of whether he really wanted that responsibility if they got Sheila to agree to it. He was still debating in his own mine whether it is something he wanted to do.
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It is not just a matter of guts giving it to them. It was a matter of whether he really wanted that responsibility if they got Sheila to agree to it. He was still debating in his own mine whether it is something he wanted to do.
Leave me alone.
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I think he used a lot of time on writing it, but in the end didn´t have the guts to give it to Nevill. As far as I remember, he brought it with him to hand over that last time he drove Sheila and the boys to the farm.
He couldn´t think of anything but getting out of there as quickly as possible. Even though the twins were literally clinging to him, crying hysterically and begging him not to go.
Worth noticing: Jeremy wasn´t there, it wasn´t him they were afraid of....
They didn't like that they were forced to eat whatever the family was having for a meal, being forced to being forced to pray and have to do farm chores. In other words there was too much discipline for their taste. That has no bearing at all on the murders.
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Go away, skippy. I don´t like you.
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Go away, skippy. I don´t like you.
;D
Alias - are you doing an impression of a 5 year old? You can't be serious?? I've never seen you act this way before.
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;D
Alias - are you doing an impression of a 5 year old? You can't be serious?? I've never seen you act this way before.
The more odd thing is she thinks it is going to get me to stop commenting on her posts.
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The more odd thing is she thinks it is going to get me to stop commenting on her posts.
She can't control anyone else, only herself. So all she can do is stop replying to you/ put you on ignore - which surely is much easier than telling you what to do.
Not sure how serious she is.
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She can't control anyone else, only herself. So all she can do is stop replying to you/ put you on ignore - which surely is much easier than telling you what to do.
Not sure how serious she is.
I am not answering skippy´s posts - he keeps answering mine. I prefer no interaction, I really don´t like him, I am dead-serious.
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30 Years on and it's been decided that doctors and nurses be made to undertake mental health training as part of their professional development.
Mental health should also be part of the curriculum in promoting health and well being in pupils to prevent any future problems.
These measures are taking place tomorrow and it's hoped that the services are brought up to the same level as physical health.
"Just 1.4 per cent of public health spending is given to mental health,despite one in four people having a mental crisis ".
Ask yourselves,if this is now----2015,what were services like back in the 80's ?
I find this absolutely appalling,being that there were 8,000 people in 2012/13 who were detained in police cells because of the lack of NHS alternatives. As facts remain,people who do suffer,die on average 15/20 years earlier than others.
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30 Years on and it's been decided that doctors and nurses be made to undertake mental health training as part of their professional development.
Mental health should also be part of the curriculum in promoting health and well being in pupils to prevent any future problems.
These measures are taking place tomorrow and it's hoped that the services are brought up to the same level as physical health.
"Just 1.4 per cent of public health spending is given to mental health,despite one in four people having a mental crisis ".
Ask yourselves,if this is now----2015,what were services like back in the 80's ?
I find this absolutely appalling,being that there were 8,000 people in 2012/13 who were detained in police cells because of the lack of NHS alternatives. As facts remain,people who do suffer,die on average 15/20 years earlier than others.
Completely agree lookout and hopefully this training will help doctors and some nurses being a bit more aware that their approach and consideration of every patient's mental health should be a matter of concern and consideration. It's time the NHS were far more holistic, being a doctor or nurse doesn't automatically equip them, it comes naturally to some but many have an appalling lack of understanding imo
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Completely agree lookout and hopefully this training will help doctors and some nurses being a bit more aware that their approach and consideration of every patient's mental health should be a matter of concern and consideration. It's time the NHS were far more holistic, being a doctor or nurse doesn't automatically equip them, it comes naturally to some but many have an appalling lack of understanding imo
Maggie,it's devastating to imagine that in those years,8,000 SICK people were thrown into police cells. It's truly heartbreaking and very upsetting when in this day and age,help should have been at hand. It CAN and DOES happen to anyone.
If I was younger,I'd return to that particular field of nursing. I only wish I'd done a Masters on the subject,then I could have at least given my time to tutoring.
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The Chief Executive of Mental Illnesses was quoted as saying " that there's still a long way to go before out mental and physical health are equally valued ".
When I was working at the mental hospital in the 50's, any hope was lost forever for most of the patients on the ward where I worked. I think back,and there was nothing then,nearly 60 years ago. You can only imagine what conditions were like for those sorry souls.
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Maggie,it's devastating to imagine that in those years,8,000 SICK people were thrown into police cells. It's truly heartbreaking and very upsetting when in this day and age,help should have been at hand. It CAN and DOES happen to anyone.
If I was younger,I'd return to that particular field of nursing. I only wish I'd done a Masters on the subject,then I could have at least given my time to tutoring.
In the 1980s ie Thatchers Britain, they closed the huge Victorian mental hospitals and many institutionalised and ill people were discharged into bed sit land with disastrous results and many living rough on the streets at the same time the beautiful buildings were bought by property developers and converted into upmarket flats. Think things are slightly better now but mental health is definitely a Cinderella department in t he NHS as anyone trying to get help for themselves or someone / else soon discovers, am with Nick Clegg on this, our attitude to mental health in this country is a disgrace for an enormously rich so-called, first world country.
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In the 1980s ie Thatchers Britain, they closed the huge Victorian mental hospitals and many institutionalised and ill people were discharged into bed sit land with disastrous results and many living rough on the streets at the same time the beautiful buildings were bought by property developers and converted into upmarket flats. Think things are slightly better now but mental health is definitely a Cinderella department in t he NHS as anyone trying to get help for themselves or someone / else soon discovers, am with Nick Clegg on this, our attitude to mental health in this country is a disgrace for an enormously rich so-called, first world country.
I agree Maggie,also where Nick Clegg is concerned as he does appear to be the only one who genuinely shares his compassion towards mental health.
The problem is,that mental health for years,has been swept under the carpet or not seen as the illness that it is,as well as the old " it won't happen to me or my family " attitude,but unfortunately it does,when it's too late,simply because certain symptoms are ignored.Nobody's fault,it's the lack of education in teaching/showing these people what signs to look out for.
Funds are going to be the biggest set-back unfortunately,but if the government hald back on foreign aid and defence spending for a year,I don't see a problem because with our population increasing,so do medical/physical/mental health problems, and charity begins at home when we have an ailing population ourselves.
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I am not answering skippy´s posts - he keeps answering mine. I prefer no interaction, I really don´t like him, I am dead-serious.
But Alias, it appears that you ARE answering Skippy's posts. Every time you tell him that you're NOT responding to him, tell him you don't like him, or tell him to go away you enter into a relationship with him DESPITE very forcefully saying that it's not one you wish to have. Putting him -and ANYONE else you have no wish to converse with- on ignore may save you the stress of constantly having to tell them you don't want to speak with them. :)
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But Alias, it appears that you ARE answering Skippy's posts. Every time you tell him that you're NOT responding to him, tell him you don't like him, or tell him to go away you enter into a relationship with him DESPITE very forcefully saying that it's not one you wish to have. Putting him -and ANYONE else you have no wish to converse with- on ignore may save you the stress of constantly having to tell them you don't want to speak with them. :)
I have him on ignore and have asked him to do the same with me. I check if he answers my posts, and he does.
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I have him on ignore and have asked him to do the same with me. I check if he answers my posts, and he does.
:D :D :D It's my own experience that "checking" is rather like a "dry" alcoholic taking ONE drink, or trying to abstain from eating chocolate. One drink/bite and one is HOOKED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
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:D :D :D It's my own experience that "checking" is rather like a "dry" alcoholic taking ONE drink, or trying to abstain from eating chocolate. One drink/bite and one is HOOKED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
I am not hooked on skippy, trust me. I just don´t want him to spew his nastyness all over me without knowing about it. He should leave me alone. Entirely. Then I will leave him be.
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I am not hooked on skippy, trust me. I just don´t want him to spew his nastyness all over me without knowing about it. He should leave me alone. Entirely. Then I will leave him be.
Oh dear. You could have a problem there :-\
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There's a programme on Ch.4 tonight called Cannabis on Trial,where Jon Snow,Matthew Parris and Jennie Bond take part over a 6 month period,on the effects of two kinds of cannabis on the brain. This is a scientific test/trial which examines the brain's responses to the drug.
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There's a programme on Ch.4 tonight called Cannabis on Trial,where Jon Snow,Matthew Parris and Jennie Bond take part over a 6 month period,on the effects of two kinds of cannabis on the brain. This is a scientific test/trial which examines the brain's responses to the drug.
Thanks lookout, should be really interesting in more ways than one ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Thanks lookout, should be really interesting in more ways than one ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
That's what I thought Maggie. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I've been quite upset at the circumstances in which that young girl from Bristol has been found. :(
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I've been quite upset at the circumstances in which that young girl from Bristol has been found. :(
Shocking
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How sad it is to plead innocence for all these years.
Even sadder is the fact that he's got no evidence to back that claim.
Very few people will believe the words of an already " convicted criminal ".
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I'm going to quote from the Independent,Pat Crimes------The Bamber Files-Crime-UK.
" Upstairs,they found his wife June,shot seven times,initially in bed.She had been finished off with two shots to the head,one between the eyes,as she attempted to escape. Mr Arlidge underlined the tragedy with pregnant pauses as he outlined how the twins had been murdered as they slept in their beds,both shot in the head at close range. In the same room as June, police found Sheila Caffell,lying on the bed with a Bible and a .22 Anschutz semi-automatic rifle ling on her,the barrel pointing towards her head."
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I'm going to quote from the Independent,Pat Crimes------The Bamber Files-Crime-UK.
" Upstairs,they found his wife June,shot seven times,initially in bed.She had been finished off with two shots to the head,one between the eyes,as she attempted to escape. Mr Arlidge underlined the tragedy with pregnant pauses as he outlined how the twins had been murdered as they slept in their beds,both shot in the head at close range. In the same room as June, police found Sheila Caffell,lying on the bed with a Bible and a .22 Anschutz semi-automatic rifle ling on her,the barrel pointing towards her head."
Aww Lookout, I really don't think you need me to tell you that EVERY publication from the "Times" to the "Daily Star" thought all their birthdays and Christmas's had arrived and proceeded to make literary licence and capital from it. I wouldn't mind betting that not ONE told the undiluted truth.
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Aww Lookout, I really don't think you need me to tell you that EVERY publication from the "Times" to the "Daily Star" thought all their birthdays and Christmas's had arrived and proceeded to make literary licence and capital from it. I wouldn't mind betting that not ONE told the undiluted truth.
I know,April,and it also depends on a person's preference which publication they read,which to some,is nearer the truth than others.
My dilemma is that with all publications being different in their reporting,where did they get this news from to start with ?
Really and truthfully the amount of publications over the course of this crime can be taken as ALL wrong,which in turn makes ALL links/info,etc wrong too because the majority came from the media.So it only leaves us with ( God forbid ) " having to trust EP " who were the ONLY ones who were privy to what did happen,and its findings,and I know in part,they were wrong too. It's like a stale-mate,so it's no wonder that Jeremy is kept busy getting past this lot.
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I know,April,and it also depends on a person's preference which publication they read,which to some,is nearer the truth than others.
My dilemma is that with all publications being different in their reporting,where did they get this news from to start with ?
Really and truthfully the amount of publications over the course of this crime can be taken as ALL wrong,which in turn makes ALL links/info,etc wrong too because the majority came from the media.So it only leaves us with ( God forbid ) " having to trust EP " who were the ONLY ones who were privy to what did happen,and its findings,and I know in part,they were wrong too. It's like a stale-mate,so it's no wonder that Jeremy is kept busy getting past this lot.
It could simply be a case of poor shorthand, Lookout. :o :o ;D ;D ;D
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I know,April,and it also depends on a person's preference which publication they read,which to some,is nearer the truth than others.
My dilemma is that with all publications being different in their reporting,where did they get this news from to start with ?
Really and truthfully the amount of publications over the course of this crime can be taken as ALL wrong,which in turn makes ALL links/info,etc wrong too because the majority came from the media.So it only leaves us with ( God forbid ) " having to trust EP " who were the ONLY ones who were privy to what did happen,and its findings,and I know in part,they were wrong too. It's like a stale-mate,so it's no wonder that Jeremy is kept busy getting past this lot.
1) reporters are in a rush to get their story to print first. This means they don't take the time to make sure everything they post is fully accurate
2) reporters often make mistakes both in memory and by misconstruing what they are told. They also often make assumptions.
3) Reporters are often misinformed.
4) reporters are not experts and thus often are poor judges of evaluating what they print
This is why news articles are not reliable sources for facts.
In some instances reporters actually make things up. one reporter made up a story about how there were DEA agents outside of a house while murders were committed and how they witnessed the killer leaving the house to dispose of evidence... He made this up many years after the murders. They want attention and thus make up sensational things.
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1) reporters are in a rush to get their story to print first. This means they don't take the time to make sure everything they post is fully accurate
2) reporters often make mistakes both in memory and by misconstruing what they are told. They also often make assumptions.
3) Reporters are often misinformed.
4) reporters are not experts and thus often are poor judges of evaluating what they print
This is why news articles are not reliable sources for facts.
In some instances reporters actually make things up. one reporter made up a story about how there were DEA agents outside of a house while murders were committed and how they witnessed the killer leaving the house to dispose of evidence... He made this up many years after the murders. They want attention and thus make up sensational things.
And the culmination of all those facts WON'T mean a guilty person is innocent.
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And the culmination of all those facts WON'T mean a guilty person is innocent.
All they mean is to be leery of relying on news sources instead of doing independent research. New sources are best to get background so you can then do your own research.
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In a thread on here,dated July 20th 2011,there's a heading called "Logs and Docs.re incident 7/8/85 ".
Contained in one of the logs is a piece written in a notebook,
08.10-- House now been thoroughly searched by Firearms Team. Now confirmed a further 3 bodies found----5 dead in total ( info from Duty Inspector HQ1R )
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In a thread on here,dated July 20th 2011,there's a heading called "Logs and Docs.re incident 7/8/85 ".
Contained in one of the logs is a piece written in a notebook,
08.10-- House now been thoroughly searched by Firearms Team. Now confirmed a further 3 bodies found----5 dead in total ( info from Duty Inspector HQ1R )
Which refers to Sheila and the boys.
Nevill was found right away. June was found next, they could see her body while using a mirror as a periscope. Sheila was found third when they finally went in the bedroom and walked around to the other side of the bed. The boys were found last.
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Who was the dog-walker who'd heard shots coming from the direction of WHF on the night of the tragedies ? Apparently he gave a statement saying what he'd heard. We haven't had many details of what time the shot/s were fired,or have we ?
Was Jeremy ever questioned where he was in conjunction to the time of the shots ? Not that I'm aware of.
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Let's not lose this " mystery " underneath the threads marked " Adam " seeing as he's keen to stick to his own and to overtake other more interesting threads.
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If you want something to do,Adam,find out about the dog-walker who'd heard shots coming from WHF the night of the murders. Or doesn't it fit your way of thinking ?
The guy made a statement.
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Adam,instead of by-passing my question and hoping it sinks to the bottom of the pile,how about finding out about who this person was and why the matter was pushed to one side.
Your questions are made easy simply because you're acting as prosecutor to a case as far as you're concerned is cut and dried.
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He's not the one bleating on about it, why don't you find the claim, Lookout. I'd be interested in seeing it.
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If you want something to do,Adam,find out about the dog-walker who'd heard shots coming from WHF the night of the murders. Or doesn't it fit your way of thinking ?
The guy made a statement.
Can you provide the source for this please. It will be a good thing to discuss.
Thank you.
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Can you provide the source for this please. It will be a good thing to discuss.
Thank you.
I've been bitten far too many times searching the archives for something that ended up not existing or had been read in a book. I do remember this being mentioned, sort of. But I don't ever remember a statement so would be happy to read it if it is provided.
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He's not the one bleating on about it, why don't you find the claim, Lookout. I'd be interested in seeing it.
Aww,Adam's little helper.How nice.
I don't remember asking you ? But don't fret,it's on this forum somewhere.
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Aww,Adam's little helper.How nice.
I don't remember asking you ? But don't fret,it's on this forum somewhere.
A man heard shots in a remote farmhouse, at 3am. Although the walls are thick. The source is 'somewhere on the forum'.
Lookout, I'm now considering changing stance.
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Aww,Adam's little helper.How nice.
I don't remember asking you ? But don't fret,it's on this forum somewhere.
That aside, Lookout, it WOULD be interesting to see and I haven't a CLUE where to start looking for it because I don't recall having previously seen it, so if you COULD locate it.....................PLEEEEEEZE :)
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I've been bitten far too many times searching the archives for something that ended up not existing or had been read in a book. I do remember this being mentioned, sort of. But I don't ever remember a statement so would be happy to read it if it is provided.
This dog walker has been mentioned a few times in the past, with people even claiming that they made a statement.
I've never seen any proof, and when challenged nobody can provide any.
It appears to be made up nonsense, but I'd be happy to be shown otherwise.
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....... And YES,the dog walker made a statement that he heard gun shots coming from the vicinity of whf. ......
As an example.
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We don't know for sure who if anyone did fire a shot at that time,but a neighbour walking his dog did hear a report from a firearm late that night. Nevill was also in the habit of taking an evening walk with the dog I believe.
Steve, I believe the distance quoted was, in words to the effect of "one mile away in the vicinity of WHF"
Further examples.
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That aside, Lookout, it WOULD be interesting to see and I haven't a CLUE where to start looking for it because I don't recall having previously seen it, so if you COULD locate it.....................PLEEEEEEZE :)
I'm searching really hard April,believe me. :) I actually saw it earlier on,on the forum and never thought to hang on to it after raising the question. ::) It's remembering where I saw it.
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And then this 'appears' to be the source.
I received information about the shotgun blast overheard by the witness Smith which he reportedly heard / reported coming from the general vicinity of whf between 9:30 and 10:15pm, on evening 6th August 1985.Apparently Smith told police that th shotgun blast had been discharged outside the farmhouse, not inside. This would have been at the time Ralph walked his dogs. Anyway, police looked into the possibility that Ralph could have been confronted by someone and that he had fired off a shot with the 12 bore. Police received information that an estate car with ladders on its roof was seen travelling up Pages Lane around the time of the shotgun blast. Police search the grounds for any spent shotgun cases but did not find any - the only spent cartridge caze case found at the scene was a solitary Raker shotgun cartridge found inside the same box as the silencer, anshulz rifles metal end cap in the gun cupboard in the downstairs office. Police had found a shotgun downstairs at the scene which Ralph normally kept loaded under his bed - when police found this gun at the scene it still had a spent RAKER cartridge in its barrel. Peter Eaton took the spent cartridge out of the guns barrel and concealed it in the same box David Boutflour found the silencer in on the following day. He also put the aforementioned shotgun back in there...
Police searched gun cupboard on 7th August and there was no silencer present. Keys to whf were handed to Eatons on evening on 9th August, and Peter Eaton put shotgun and spent cartridge case in the gun cupboard - more importantly, he placed spent RAKER shotgun cartridge in same box sikencer was didcovered on the following day by David Boutflour...
This activity was not knpwn about by anybody else other than the relatives...
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And then this 'appears' to be the source.
Thank you.
So Mike posted it. But did not give a source.
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As an example.
Ah,that might be what I saw,and coming from tyler,it has to be Kosher.
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Here's more, but not the proof we are all yearning for. :(
Key Evidence which was Kept from Jeremy Bamber, his Legal team, and the court
What I am about to divulge, had the potential to alter the outcome of the juries verdict in this case -
(1) Essex police took a close Interest in a 12 bore shotgun, which they recovered from the gun cupboard in the downstairs office
Go to the following link to view the 12 bore shotgun which Essex police took a close interest in:-
(a) http://www.flickr.com/photos/miketeskowski/5281345418/
(2) this 12 bore shotgun, was checked for fingerprints, and found to contain the fingerprints of Ralph Bamber, and Sheila Caffell...
(3) Essex seized a spent RAKER 12 bore cartridge case from the scene
(4) A Local Resident, Mr Smith, told the police that on the evening before the shootings, that he had heard a shotgun blast come from the direction of whf
It now seems certain, that as part of the original investigation which was carried out under SC/688/85, Essex police were aware of a struggle which had taken place between, Ralph Bamber, and Sheila Caffell, where the shotgun may have been discharged in the kitchen at whf, at sometime between 10:15 and 10:30pm, on the evening of 6th August, 1985...
An Officers Report, may exist that deals with this incident, in which the police officer concludes that this event was part of the build up, which led to the shootings of the five victims inside whf which unraveled during the morning of 7th August 1985...
Although the local resident, Mr Smith, made a witness statement, detailing that he had heard a shotgun blast come from the direction of the farm late on the evening of 6th August 1985, this statement was not disclosed to Jeremy Bamber, or his legal team, or brought to the attention of the jury at his trial...
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Here's more, but not the proof we are all yearning for. :(
Either someone has a bad memory or the times of the shots keep changing. If he made a statement, how can the times be wrong?? ;D
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More, a full name this time:
There are indications in the evidence of a Steven Brian Smith of 23 Tollesbury Road who heard " gunshot sounds " at a time when it was conceded that Jeremy Bamber was not at the Farm.Police haven't disclosed this information either.
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It appears that Lookout copied the above quote from this website:
youknowwhokilledyoudontyou.blogspot.co.uk/2011/02/innocent-man-part-11.html?m=1 (http://youknowwhokilledyoudontyou.blogspot.co.uk/2011/02/innocent-man-part-11.html?m=1)
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Thankyou very much for those,Hartley. I knew I wasn't going senile---------------yet. ;D
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That's about all I can find. :-\
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Thankyou very much for those,Hartley. I knew I wasn't going senile---------------yet. ;D
There's still time. ;) ;D
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And then this 'appears' to be the source.
The same "source" then, as the now discredited Monastery story.
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The same "source" then, as the now discredited Monastery story.
Lookout's post mentions a full name and an address though. She must have got that from somewhere. Perhaps it's mentioned in one of the logs or notes made by EP and not in a statement?
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The same "source" then, as the now discredited Monastery story.
It appears so.
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The same "source" then, as the now discredited Monastery story.
That aside,April,I can pretty well guarantee that where a name has been given and is contactable,then it holds more water.
It's given me another idea to question EP in asking them for a copy of the guy's statement.
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And here we go, the last page of Chapter 16, in Lomax' book.
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He was mentioned in submissions to the CCRC in this doc copied and pasted by Mike.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,3907.msg160269.html#msg160269
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He was mentioned in submissions to the CCRC in this doc copied and pasted by Mike.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,3907.msg160269.html#msg160269
Oh dear, it seems to have been put together by the Italian chap. ???
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According to the contents of a police action report, a person called ‘Fraser, Bell’ was at one point suspected of being responsible. Fraser Bell worked on the Bamber Farm and lived in a caravan at – guess where? – the nearby Osea Road Caravan Park. One witness pointed the finger at Fraser Bell, but we do not know what information was imparted by this witness. We know that Bell’s statement said that when he approached the farm on the morning of the 7th, police turned him away. Police logs have no record of Fraser Bell’s attendance. A search for details among police logs completed at the scene by various police officers, does not confirm that Fraser Bell attended the scene on the morning of the murders and that he was turned away, as he has claimed, in his statement. Either Fraser Bell is lying or the police logs are inaccurate. Either way, the mild mystery has no answer and the defence weren’t told about it and given the chance to follow this line of inquiry to its natural conclusion.
Information contained in police logs also reveal that officers were sent along to neighbouring properties, to make enquiries concerning if they had heard or seen anything during the night. It’s believed one neighbour may have made the sighting referred to by the Press as ‘A hunched up dirty looking man’ who was seen walking away from the back of the house, about an hour after the police first arrived at the scene. The unidentified person was described in a major incident register log but we can go no further, because any witness statement that may have existed, containing this type of information, were never disclosed. We do not even know which witness claims they saw this man, since mountains of material is still withheld under PII (Public Interest Immunity) Rules.
There are indications in the evidence of a certain Steven Brian Smith of 23 Tollesbury Road, who heard ‘gunshot sounds’ at a time when it was conceded Jeremy Bamber was not at the Farm. Police haven’t disclosed this information either.
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From Harters link.
So Fraser Bell was a suspect. Although he had no motive and would have put himself up against three adults.
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A hunched dirty man. Seen leaving the scene.
Perhaps he broke into WHF, killed everyone and framed Sheila. Why ? Don't ask me.
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Oh dear, it seems to have been put together by the Italian chap. ???
Do you think it might not be completely true then? ;D
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Gun shots heard at the remote WHF ? By neighbours. When Jeremy wasn't there ?
The neighbours must have been awake, with their windows open. And have good ears.
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A hunched dirty looking man was seen walking away from the scene.........after the police arrived ?
Mmm.
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Do you think it might not be completely true then? ;D
It's a possibility ;D
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For Lookout!
Not sure which thread she posted the info in but a few days ago Lookout stated that blood was found outside of Sheila's room and she was right! :)
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1721.msg56639.html#msg56639
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This dog walker has been mentioned a few times in the past, with people even claiming that they made a statement.
I've never seen any proof, and when challenged nobody can provide any.
It appears to be made up nonsense, but I'd be happy to be shown otherwise.
Thanks Hartley! Now do you see why I don't bother going through the archives for things sometimes! Like I said I've been bitten many times looking for something that doesn't even exist!
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Gunshots ( without silencers ;D ) and depending which one was fired at the time, would have been heard in the still of night,with windows open before everywhere was locked up------------on the inside as well, because the sound/resonance would have been more marked. Sound,however slight is more audible at nightime,and carries a fair distance.
Why WERE the dogs barking when EP reached WHF ? ??? Especially Crispy who was inside ?
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Why WERE the dogs barking when EP reached WHF ? ??? Especially Crispy who was inside ?
Because someone had been inside and killed everyone. If I was dead in my place - my dog would be barking too I'm sure.
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Because someone had been inside and killed everyone. If I was dead in my place - my dog would be barking too I'm sure.
But the " killer " was outside with the police.
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Dogs usually lay silent by their master if he/she is found to be dead.
They will always bark at someone who's running around frantic though.
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Dogs usually lay silent by their master if he/she is found to be dead.
They will always bark at someone who's running around frantic though.
I just fell off my chair. ;D
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Dogs usually lay silent by their master if he/she is found to be dead.
They will always bark at someone who's running around frantic though.
Not that you like to generalise or anything? ;D
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I just fell off my chair. ;D
Hartley,have you never read about a dog silently sitting by its dead master,sometimes in the same spot where he was some weeks ago.? Waiting ?
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Hartley,have you never read about a dog silently sitting by its dead master,sometimes in the same spot where he was some weeks ago.? Waiting ?
Greyfriars Bobby? Hachi? It doesn't happen all of the time Lookout.
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I just fell off my chair. ;D
Hopefully not dead!
But if you are dead, could you tell us if your dog is barking or just sat next to you, please.
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Crispy barked all the time - that is why she was called "the Pest".
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Hopefully not dead!
But if you are dead, could you tell us if your dog is barking or just sat next to you, please.
I don't have a dog, my cat isn't barking though, if that helps? :-\
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I don't have a dog, my cat isn't barking though, if that helps? :-\
One of my cats growls if she hears a strange knock on the door,like she did this morning and when I answered it,it was the Jehovas Witnesses.How clever is that for a cat ?
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One of my cats growls if she hears a strange knock on the door,like she did this morning and when I answered it,it was the Jehovas Witnesses.How clever is that for a cat ?
Gosh, we had two Jehova´s Wutnesses literally stepping into our living room! I wanted to smack them. We were in a summer house, door was open, we were having breakfast. RUDE!!!
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Gosh, we had two Jehova´s Wutnesses literally stepping into our living room! I wanted to smack them. We were in a summer house, door was open, we were having breakfast. RUDE!!!
That made me laugh!! ;D ;D ;D I think they are so used to having doors slammed in their faces that they have no shame.
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That made me laugh!! ;D ;D ;D I think they are so used to having doors slammed in their faces that they have no shame.
That´s right, no shame, only considering their own agenda. They are nuts. We have a perifer family member who is Jehova´s Witness. A very, very pretty girl. She never attends birthdays or Christmas, I don+t care, but it annoys some in the family.
Michael Jackson used to be a Witness, and so was his mother and his sister LaToya, but not the rest of his family, very odd. He was this huge superstar, but he still went on those house visits like I described, and he always had a JW "guard" with him to make sure he didn´t step out of line.
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If you want something to do,Adam,find out about the dog-walker who'd heard shots coming from WHF the night of the murders. Or doesn't it fit your way of thinking ?
The guy made a statement.
This is hilarious because the same Jeremy supporters claim police would not have heard the 2 shots fired though the bedroom window was open and they were listening attentively for any signs of life have no problem accepting a guy walking a dog further away than police would be heard shots being fired.
In any event if this someone actually did claim to have heard the shootings then he would have been cited at the trial because both sides would have been trying to get him to admit to a timing that supported their case- the government trying to get him to establish the shooting started before the time Nevill even supposedly called Jeremy (which would render the phone call claim an obvious lie) and the defense trying to establish he heard the shootings were taking place while Jeremy was on the phone with police.
There was no such person this is made up.
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This is hilarious because the same Jeremy supporters claim police would not have heard the 2 shots fired though the bedroom window was open and they were listening attentively for any signs of life have no problem accepting a guy walking a dog further away than police would be heard shots being fired.
In any event if this someone actually did claim to have heard the shootings then he would have been cited at the trial because both sides would have been trying to get him to admit to a timing that supported their case- the government trying to get him to establish the shooting started before the time Nevill even supposedly called Jeremy (which would render the phone call claim an obvious lie) and the defense trying to establish he heard the shootings were taking place while Jeremy was on the phone with police.
There was no such person this is made up.
No he was called Steven Brian Smith and gave a statement to Police.
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No he was called Steven Brian Smith and gave a statement to Police.
He is the guy who heard what he thought was the sound of a shotgun before midnight.
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He is the guy who heard what he thought was the sound of a shotgun before midnight.
So much so that he reported it to the police and they in turn got a statement from him which is either hidden in the confines of Essex police station or being held under PII.Either way I'm going to ask for a copy.
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So much so that he reported it to the police and they in turn got a statement from him which is either hidden in the confines of Essex police station or being held under PII.Either way I'm going to ask for a copy.
If my request is turned down,then I know there's something iffy about how EP operate.
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So much so that he reported it to the police and they in turn got a statement from him which is either hidden in the confines of Essex police station or being held under PII.Either way I'm going to ask for a copy.
You claimed someone was walking his dog around the time of the murders and heard the shots. The person who heard what he thought were shots were heard before midnight. Unless the murders took place on Tuesday the 6th before midnight he didn't hear the shots. if they did take place before midnight then Jeremy is screwed because Nevill can't have called him at 3:15am if he died hours earlier.
There is nothing though that suggests the murders were so early.
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You claimed someone was walking his dog around the time of the murders and heard the shots. The person who heard what he thought were shots were heard before midnight. Unless the murders took place on Tuesday the 6th before midnight he didn't hear the shots. if they did take place before midnight then Jeremy is screwed because Nevill can't have called him at 3:15am if he died hours earlier.
There is nothing though that suggests the murders were so early.
Strangely enough a lot of guilters first thought that the murders did happen at midnight,just because it said so somewhere ::)
However,the shots that Smith heard,were earlier.I'd have said not long after Jeremy had left for home.
If a few windows at the farmhouse had been open at the time,then a crack of a gun would have been heard as it's a quiet area.
Don't forget,there were a few guns around,including a shotgun which would have been heard and the same gun had Sheila's fingerprints on it. She may have fired it out of a window for all we know,being as there was no mention of any shot found within.
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Strangely enough a lot of guilters first thought that the murders did happen at midnight, just because it said so somewhere ::)
However,the shots that Smith heard,were earlier.I'd have said not long after Jeremy had left for home.
If a few windows at the farmhouse had been open at the time,then a crack of a gun would have been heard as it's a quiet area.
Don't forget,there were a few guns around,including a shotgun which would have been heard and the same gun had Sheila's fingerprints on it. She may have fired it out of a window for all we know,being as there was no mention of any shot found within.
Eh? ???
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Strangely enough a lot of guilters first thought that the murders did happen at midnight,just because it said so somewhere ::)
However,the shots that Smith heard,were earlier.I'd have said not long after Jeremy had left for home.
If a few windows at the farmhouse had been open at the time,then a crack of a gun would have been heard as it's a quiet area.
Don't forget,there were a few guns around,including a shotgun which would have been heard and the same gun had Sheila's fingerprints on it. She may have fired it out of a window for all we know,being as there was no mention of any shot found within.
Everytime I have challenged you and others for proof her prints were found on other guns I receive no response.
That seems to be just one of the multitude of rumors Jeremy supporters resort to. Most Jeremy supporters never seem to actually try to make sure claims are true before they spout them.
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Eh? ???
That's right,Hartley,they did. I think it was because of seeing the outline of Neville in the kitchen that they thought he'd been dead for longer than what was first thought. I remember reading a few posts when I first came onto the forum and they'd also said on or around midnight.
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That's right,Hartley,they did. I think it was because of seeing the outline of Neville in the kitchen that they thought he'd been dead for longer than what was first thought. I remember reading a few posts when I first came onto the forum and they'd also said on or around midnight.
Sounds like nonsense to me. I certainly don't recall that.
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Sounds like nonsense to me. I certainly don't recall that.
As I've said before,I don't make things up and definitely read it on this forum.
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As I've said before,I don't make things up and definitely read it on this forum.
It certainly looks like you do. :-\
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It certainly looks like you do. :-\
I've actually found reference to it on a thread " why did Jeremy bamber have no alibi "30/10/2011.
It's where a poster had suggested" Jeremy arriving at WHF at midnight,killing everyone,sets the scene for 4 murders and a suicide,cleans himself up,disposes of his clothes,calls his cottage,puts the silencer in the cupboard,places a bible near Sheila,then walks briskly home by 2.45/3am "
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I've actually found reference to it on a thread " why did Jeremy bamber have no alibi "30/10/2011.
It's where a poster had suggested" Jeremy arriving at WHF at midnight,killing everyone,sets the scene for 4 murders and a suicide,cleans himself up,disposes of his clothes,calls his cottage,puts the silencer in the cupboard,places a bible near Sheila,then walks briskly home by 2.45/3am "
I can never find the threads you refer to. :'( :'( :'(
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I've actually found reference to it on a thread " why did Jeremy bamber have no alibi "30/10/2011.
It's where a poster had suggested" Jeremy arriving at WHF at midnight,killing everyone,sets the scene for 4 murders and a suicide,cleans himself up,disposes of his clothes,calls his cottage,puts the silencer in the cupboard,places a bible near Sheila,then walks briskly home by 2.45/3am "
I rest my case! :D
You said:
Strangely enough a lot of guilters first thought that the murders did happen at midnight....
Then your 'a lot of guilters' turns into a single members suggestion:
I've actually found reference to it on a thread " why did Jeremy bamber have no alibi "30/10/2011.
It's where a poster had suggested" Jeremy arriving at WHF at midnight,killing everyone,sets the scene for 4 murders and a suicide,cleans himself up,disposes of his clothes,calls his cottage,puts the silencer in the cupboard,places a bible near Sheila,then walks briskly home by 2.45/3am "
To make matters worse, you reference the posts below as proof. I'm not sure I'd have it in my hart(ley) to refer to Keira as 'a guilter'.
14. So, Jeremy supposedly arrives at WHF at around midnight, breaks in, kills all of his family, sets the scene up as four murders and a suicide, cleans himself off and disposes of his clothing calls his cottage, puts the silencer in the cupboard, places a bible near Sheila, then walks briskly home by 2.50 am or 3 am?
We need to remember too that Jeremy had been working 13 to 15 hour shifts on the harvest. He'd worked around 13 hours on the night of the murders.
So Jeremy:
Rises at 6 am or 7am
Rushes to work, does 13 hours exhausting manual work
Grabs a quick meal at WHF
Rushes home, works out his plan and puts on his wet suit and flippers
Walks for an hour and half, arrives WHF at midnight.
Frantically kills his family - turning his head away as he doesn't even have the stomach for killing rabbits and was termed by Nevill a 'Nancy Boy' due to this - stages the killings, cleans up, changes his clothes
Walks home for another hour and half
Rings the police and sets off for WHF
Waits at WHF from 4 amish to 9 or 10 amish.
Sits in a police car and does not fall asleep from exhaustion....
Having been dosed with tranquilisers, still manages to respond intelligibly when interviewed by police for some hours.
It really does make little difference, and as far as I'm aware, we don't have an accurate time of death for the five victims, there's not even a consensus among different people's opinions (and never has been). Clearly the murders occurred at some point prior to Jeremy phoning the police.
I don't much care for the term guilter in case you hadn't noticed. :D
You've made an error, for whatever reason. It's not a big deal, but let's move on shall we? :P
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One of the items from the Stokenchurch list of exhibits included a cartridge from a shotgun. Does anyone know where this was found and whose fingerprints were on it ?
Though it would seem obvious enough an answer seeing that Sheila's prints were found on the shotgun.
Why haven't EP been specific in their investigation ?
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One of the items from the Stokenchurch list of exhibits included a cartridge from a shotgun. Does anyone know where this was found and whose fingerprints were on it ?
Though it would seem obvious enough an answer seeing that Sheila's prints were found on the shotgun.
Why haven't EP been specific in their investigation ?
If the shotgun had been fired in anger prior to the murders having taken place on the same night,then the man who was walking his dog WOULD have heard a shot ring out as it would have been more audible than a .22 rifle.
No wonder we haven't seen this guy's statement !! Steven Brian Smith.
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If the shotgun had been fired in anger prior to the murders having taken place on the same night,then the man who was walking his dog WOULD have heard a shot ring out as it would have been more audible than a .22 rifle.
No wonder we haven't seen this guy's statement !! Steven Brian Smith.
IF a shot was heard it doesn't mean it came from WHF, or that it was Sheila who fired the shot. A couple of nights ago I hear two shots from a shot gun - no murders though, it's part of living in the countryside. I've got a shot gun cartridge, I haven't killed anyone and why should we see his statement? I imagine it said, he was walking his dog and heard a shot, what else can it say?
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IF a shot was heard it doesn't mean it came from WHF, or that it was Sheila who fired the shot. A couple of nights ago I hear two shots from a shot gun - no murders though, it's part of living in the countryside. I've got a shot gun cartridge, I haven't killed anyone and why should we see his statement? I imagine it said, he was walking his dog and heard a shot, what else can it say?
I would have said that it was more than a coincidence that a shot was heard between 10pm and midnight on the night of the murders,and that a spent cartridge from a shotgun was found. ? Found where,we don't know as yet,but it's another question for Jeremy.
Also the fact that Sheila's prints were to be found on the said shotgun seems more than a coincidence too.
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I would have said that it was more than a coincidence that a shot was heard between 10pm and midnight on the night of the murders,and that a spent cartridge from a shotgun was found. ? Found where,we don't know as yet,but it's another question for Jeremy.
Also the fact that Sheila's prints were to be found on the said shotgun seems more than a coincidence too.
Only if you're putting two and two together and coming up with a red herring! ;D ;D ;D
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How do you account for the shotgun having been found in another room other than the kitchen,or the gun cupboard where it would have been ? I don't remember it being said that Jeremy was trying it out ?
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The cartridge was mentioned in the Stokenchurch investigations,so no red-herring there,also it was AE who'd reported finding the shotgun and she didn't lie. ???
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The cartridge was mentioned in the Stokenchurch investigations,so no red-herring there,also it was AE who'd reported finding the shotgun and she didn't lie. ???
No one was shot with a shot gun.
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No one was shot with a shot gun.
I know that,but it must have been fired for there to have been an empty cartridge ?
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I know that,but it must have been fired for there to have been an empty cartridge ?
What would it prove if it had been fired?
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What would it prove if it had been fired?
That the firer was Sheila whose prints were on it.
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That the firer was Sheila whose prints were on it.
Where did she fire it and what at?
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Where did she fire it and what at?
She may have fired it into the air from the back door,as her father went back into the field after supper.Or she could have fired it from an open window. To attract his attention.
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She may have fired it into the air from the back door,as her father went back into the field after supper.Or she could have fired it from an open window. To attract his attention.
What was everybody else doing at this time?
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That the firer was Sheila whose prints were on it.
Mike claiming such is not proof that this is true. Try finding real evidence.
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Please don't speak to Lookout like that Scip.
I know where she is coming from and so do others for this has been discussed before.
Myth or not:
1. It has been said that someone heard a gun go off round about 10pm that night in the WHF location. Not much else near the farm except for the small cottages.
2. It has also been said that Sheila's fingerprints were found on one of the guns.
3. lookout is saying that she has read in police files that case shell from a gun was found and is merely asking if anyone knows about it.
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Please don't speak to Lookout like that Scip.
I know where she is coming from and so do others for this has been discussed before.
Myth or not:
1. It has been said that someone heard a gun go off round about 10pm that night in the WHF location. Not much else near the farm except for the small cottages.
2. It has also been said that Sheila's fingerprints were found on one of the guns.
3. lookout is saying that she has read in police files that case shell from a gun was found and is merely asking if anyone knows about it.
Lookout constantly presents unproven allegations as facts and this is one of those instances. Mike's allegation that Sheila's prints were found on the shotgun is not evidence that they were. She is presenting it as fact though.
It is fair to point out that Mike took a reference that appears to indicate prints were found but only illustrated WHERE on the weapons the prints were found (referring to each location by a letter) not whether the prints were good enough to match to anyone or rule out as belonging to anyone. We have no indication that they were simply partial prints that were inconclusive.
Depending on Mike's objective that particular day he alleged Nevill and June's prints were the ones found on the rifle or Sheila's. He alleges whatever he feels like making up that particular day.
In the meantime just because a shotgun shell was found in a field doesn't mean it was fired the night of the murders. Even if Sheila's prints had been on one of the shotguns that doesn't prove she fired the shotgun on the night of the murders. Nor would anyone firing a shotgun out in the fields prior to the murders have any relation to the murders which were committed later with a 22 caliber rifle.
I consider the whole inquiry a waste of time but if people want to engage in such inquiry they should at least be using facts not misrepresenting unproven allegations from Mike as fact.
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Please don't speak to Lookout like that Scip.
I know where she is coming from and so do others for this has been discussed before.
Myth or not:
1. It has been said that someone heard a gun go off round about 10pm that night in the WHF location. Not much else near the farm except for the small cottages.
2. It has also been said that Sheila's fingerprints were found on one of the guns.
3. lookout is saying that she has read in police files that case shell from a gun was found and is merely asking if anyone knows about it.
Actually, she's suggesting that Sheila fired it without any evidence. It could have been anyone, we hear gun shots regularly here but no one is being murdered. Heard two shots the other night but as far as I know - no one went crazy with a gun.
If people make unjustified claims, then it's a point for debate. That's the point of the forum to debate.
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Can we get one thing clear here because this has come up before several times.
Firstly there is no evidence that you are able to present which indicates that Ralph kept a loaded shot gun under his bed, we only have Jeremys word for that, in fact we don't even have that, we only have Mikes word. Keeping a loaded shotgun under his bed to shoot foxes is an absolutely preposterous fabrication.
If you can show anybody any evidence that this was the case then I invite you to do so.
Secondly, another repeat offender is that Sheilas fingerprints were found on the above mentioned shotgun, and yet again there is no evidence of this. I have asked this before on countless occasions, the attachement below is all that Mike is relying on to prove that Sheilas fingerprints were on this shotgun, to say it's inconclusive is being very generous indeed, to suggest that there is any hint that this diagram indicates such information is well and truly beyond beyond my comprehension.
And again, if there is anything else that Mike is relying on to show that Sheilas fingerprints were found on this shotgun, or any other shotgun, then I invite him to show us.
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2050.0;attach=10209;image)
I found this old post, it still appears to hold up. :-\
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I can't make head or tail of what that is?
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I can't make head or tail of what that is?
Mike claims this is a document that shows where fingerprints were found on a shotgun and the air rifle. The letters are supposed to correspond to hits for prints.
He has not provided any documents that show analysis of eahc of these supposed letters that is supposed to represent a print. SO even if this document is real all the prints could have been worthless partials that they could not match to anything. Recall that there were numerous prints on the murder weapon that were not clear enough or complete enough to match to anyone or even rule out who made them.
Mike has claimed these prints were Sheila's, June's and Nevill's at varying times. Who he claims made these prints depends on what he feels like arguing at the moment. Anyone could have picked up one of these guns to move them so a print on the gun doesn't mean much. They were not used to commit the murders so are not relevant.
The only relevance these guns present is that there were viable weapons for Nevill to try to grab and use against an attacker if he was afforded time to do so. He could have gone to the kitchen for that very reason but his killer caught up to him too fast. Clearly they played no roles in the murder though.
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In the meantime just because a shotgun shell was found in a field doesn't mean it was fired the night of the murders. Even if Sheila's prints had been on one of the shotguns that doesn't prove she fired the shotgun on the night of the murders. Nor would anyone firing a shotgun out in the fields prior to the murders have any relation to the murders which were committed later with a 22 caliber rifle.
I consider the whole inquiry a waste of time but if people want to engage in such inquiry they should at least be using facts not misrepresenting unproven allegations from Mike as fact.
That's the danger when people posts unproven allegations, others then repeat them as fact & down the it grows legs and people begin to believe it - forgetting where it originally began. It's mis-leading and false.
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A shotgun shell case was found in a field - and Mike claims Sheila's fingerprints were found on this (no proof?) - and from this Lookout is saying Sheila fired the shotgun (no proof?)
Is this the crook of it so far?
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That's the danger when people posts unproven allegations, others then repeat them as fact & down the it grows legs and people begin to believe it - forgetting where it originally began. It's mis-leading and false.
It doesn't help anyone either - least of all Jeremy.
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It doesn't help anyone either - least of all Jeremy.
My mind boggles why they do this. :-\
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It doesn't help anyone either - least of all Jeremy.
Some people want to believe that Jeremy is innocent no matter what and they will use anything they can to try to justify such position. It thus helps them in their effort to pretend they have a solid basis for asserting it. Others are like Adam and are thus actively trying to get influence the beliefs of others and will thus use anything they can find no matter how unreliable and some will even make things up.
Obviously this won't get Jeremy out of jail but is rationalized as helping him get followers who believe he is innocent and some even irrationally think a movement could influence the government to free him.
Some people like being part of a cause because they want something to do and being part of a cause is enjoyable, others like the attention they garner from it.
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We'll see,eh.
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Sheila once told BW that " all people are evil and should be killed ".Did BW ever repeat this when on television a couple of years ago ? No,I don't think she did ! I wonder why ?
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I'd always been a bit sceptic about the way Sheila had died,in that she didn't bear any hallmarks of having been faced,or forced by a shooter. Painless and fearless.
However,having read a sad story about an acting couple,the husband having starred in " Downton ",his wife also had starring roles,but while his career flourished,she felt as though hers was waning and as a consequence went into a deep depression,finally ending her life last year. Witnesses who saw the tragic ending to the woman who threw herself onto an incoming train,said that the look on her face was one of serenity.
Serenity is what I would have described Sheila's sad body lying there,and at peace.
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Harry Roberts who was jailed for life in 1966 for shooting dead 3 unarmed police officers,has been released on licence and has been given a name change,as well as a state-funded bungalow.He's now aged 78.
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Harry Roberts who was jailed for life in 1966 for shooting dead 3 unarmed police officers,has been released on licence and has been given a name change,as well as a state-funded bungalow.He's now aged 78.
He was actually released last November after serving 48 years. The longest serving sentence in this country.
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The note in the Bible".Love one Another". Refers to acting in the best interest/s----------the children ? In Divorce/Separation.
I'm sure that if we'd seen the rest of that letter,we'd have been able to piece it together.
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The letter itself began with " A determination always to act in the best interest of others " ?
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A young 17 year old who was dubbed a " high flier " for his age,had been arrested for drink-driving in 2012. It has since emerged that while in custody,police were mocking him because of his middle-class background. Bullying too was also noted. Sound familiar ?
Well this young man later killed himself. The sergeant in question who dished out the insults had been moved from his post for " inappropriate behaviour ".
As usual,this incident had remained hidden from the inquest,but now THANKFULLY has been made public.
What is it with police and a lot of members of the public who see this " middle-class syndrome " as one in which to show their hostilities towards ??
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A young 17 year old who was dubbed a " high flier " for his age,had been arrested for drink-driving in 2012. It has since emerged that while in custody,police were mocking him because of his middle-class background. Bullying too was also noted. Sound familiar ?
Well this young man later killed himself. The sergeant in question who dished out the insults had been moved from his post for " inappropriate behaviour ".
As usual,this incident had remained hidden from the inquest,but now THANKFULLY has been made public.
What is it with police and a lot of members of the public who see this " middle-class syndrome " as one in which to show their hostilities towards ??
His parents weren't aware he had been arrested until after his death either. Because he was over 16 the police didn't need to inform anyone he was in custody. So sad.
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The note in the Bible".Love one Another". Refers to acting in the best interest/s----------the children ? In Divorce/Separation.
I'm sure that if we'd seen the rest of that letter,we'd have been able to piece it together.
It was a reference to the Jim Jones cult,where over 900 people committed suicide in Guyana in 1978 after he brainwashed them. It's interesting that along with the message "love one another" Jones preached that families should be broken up as they got in the way of true worship. Coming only 7 years before the White House Farm murders it could well have been an influence on Sheila's thought processes and should have been hammered home by the Defence at trial.http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/sign-on-the-back-wall-reading-love-one-another-hangs-over-news-photo/2512939
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It was a reference to the Jim Jones cult,where over 900 people committed suicide in Guyana in 1978 after he brainwashed them. It's interesting that along with the message "love one another" Jones preached that families should be broken up as they got in the way of true worship. Coming only 7 years before the White House Farm murders it could well have been an influence on Sheila's thought processes and should have been hammered home by the Defence at trial.http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/sign-on-the-back-wall-reading-love-one-another-hangs-over-news-photo/2512939
You are right Steve, I remember the event well, hard to believe it was so long ago. It was a massive coincidence if it had no connection with the murders, it's highly unlikely that we'll ever know the answer.
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It was a reference to the Jim Jones cult,where over 900 people committed suicide in Guyana in 1978 after he brainwashed them. It's interesting that along with the message "love one another" Jones preached that families should be broken up as they got in the way of true worship. Coming only 7 years before the White House Farm murders it could well have been an influence on Sheila's thought processes and should have been hammered home by the Defence at trial.http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/sign-on-the-back-wall-reading-love-one-another-hangs-over-news-photo/2512939
Good post,Steve. I would have said that Sheila HAD been brainwashed by her mother. Sheila's confusing thoughts that had been instilled into her from an early and impressionable age would have been jumbled in her mind between good and evil. What was good ? Was it a way of ridding everyone from evil,for in order to carry out killings,did you have to " make them good ?".
This is a sickness in itself before any medical diagnosis is made.
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A thought . We know that SC had said she feared that she was a danger to her sons when she was hospitalised. And I guess that was taken into account when it was "murder suicide" But I wonder if even June and Neville were even aware of that let alone JB ? That may have been a private conversation , I bet Colin was not aware of It otherwise he would never have left the boys with her at all?
So why would JB think everyone would readily accept that she would have shot the twins ?
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I often wondered myself why Colin left the boys with their mother,so as you say,he may not have been fully aware,or had even known just what Sheila possibly could have been capable of.
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My point was as well, if Jeremy was guilty , why did he think that everyone would accept that Shelia would ever have killed the twins? It seems that perhaps the conversation about her being a threat to the boys may have been private between her and her doctor - it seems Colin was not aware of it - and perhaps even her mother and father? So why would he think in the big plan that everyone would not be suspicious right from the start?
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So why would he think in the big plan that everyone would not be suspicious right from the start?
1. Being 25 years old people make stupid decisions
2. Hated his family so much he was prepared to take the risk
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1. Being 25 years old people make stupid decisions
2. Hated his family so much he was prepared to take the risk
I would imagine he would have been convinced it was risk free- otherwise life imprisonment is not worth the money - especially as he was not badly off anyway .
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Does anyone know why the family would have the power to make sure he was categorised as the worst type of prisoner when he was to be moved?
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I think they'd complained to EP about letting the family down if JB had been downgraded. They'd spun a tale about fearing for their lives,etc etc. RWB was alive at the time and had led the fight. I believe he'd sent EP a stiff letter of complaint.
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hmmmm - wonder if they had more influence than just that ? Just a thought.
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A possible visit to their local MP too,I 'd imagine.
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Yet another murder and an attempted suicide by a mother in Florida. A register had been signed to say that due to the mother's past history of attempted suicides,drug abuse,possible child neglect,troubled history,and latterly the break up of a partner------------the case had been closed by our equivalent of social services !!? Yet the g/mother stated that the mother had a history of attempted suicide.
The mother had murdered her 3 beautiful children by strangulation.
The motive for the murder and attempted suicide isn't known. What ? The woman was known to the cops.
The children's ages were 7,6 and 5 months. The mother is having counselling for mental illness.
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Yet another murder and an attempted suicide by a mother in Florida. A register had been signed to say that due to the mother's past history of attempted suicides,drug abuse,possible child neglect,troubled history,and latterly the break up of a partner------------the case had been closed by our equivalent of social services !!? Yet the g/mother stated that the mother had a history of attempted suicide.
The mother had murdered her 3 beautiful children by strangulation.
The motive for the murder and attempted suicide isn't known. What ? The woman was known to the cops.
The children's ages were 7,6 and 5 months. The mother is having counselling for mental illness.
A bit late that! Sad. :'(
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I don't think we've even begun to understand the workings of the human brain.http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3007813/Deranged-Florida-mother-sole-survivor-botched-murder-suicide-5-month-old-baby-boy-dies-three-days-brother-sister-s-revealed-left-note-saying-sorry-do.html
It reminds me a bit of the Lianne Smith case.http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2161522/Mother-Lianne-Smith-killed-children-normal-happy-fell-spell-TV-psychic.html
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A bit late that! Sad. :'(
This is happening all too often. These mothers are being " lost " in a failed system. Most professionals aren't recognising signs,and are also ignoring information given to them.
Why didn't Dr Ferguson show the concern he must have had ? He too ignored the signs.
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Why are ALL these women who kill their children, often stated as NOT BEING A RISK ??
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Why are ALL these women who kill their children, often stated as NOT BEING A RISK ??
"ALL these women" out of how many stated as "NOT BEING AT RISK" who DON'T kill their children? Until we know what the stats are assessments can't be made. Nothing is EVER perfect and whilst we probably don't want to accept it, it MAY be that the answer falls within the bounds of what is considered to be acceptable.
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A severely mentally ill patient WILL kill children/parents during a psychotic event where their beliefs are irrational and bizarre ( as in Sheila's mention of sex by her twins ) see each member as being the " devil ". This is more likely to happen when medication has been missed.As in Sheila's case,she could have " heard " the voice of God commanding her to carry out the murders.
There is usually a long-standing disorder including depression as well as psychosis and the DANGER being,when medication has been stopped as that's when they're more likely to kill.
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A severely mentally ill patient WILL kill children/parents during a psychotic event where their beliefs are irrational and bizarre ( as in Sheila's mention of sex by her twins ) see each member as being the " devil ". This is more likely to happen when medication has been missed.As in Sheila's case,she could have " heard " the voice of God commanding her to carry out the murders.
There is usually a long-standing disorder including depression as well as psychosis and the DANGER being,when medication has been stopped as that's when they're more likely to kill.
As with the perfect storm it requires all necessary components to come together. Those suffering from depression are generally considered to be in greater danger when medication lifts them OUT of the lethargy which can deny them the energy to commit suicide. In Sheila's case, as she wasn't under section, there was no way in which she could be forced to remain in a private hospital until her meds were stabilized. COULD that have been a reason, IF she was over medicated when she left, that more was considered safer than less?
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As with the perfect storm it requires all necessary components to come together. Those suffering from depression are generally considered to be in greater danger when medication lifts them OUT of the lethargy which can deny them the energy to commit suicide. In Sheila's case, as she wasn't under section, there was no way in which she could be forced to remain in a private hospital until her meds were stabilized. COULD that have been a reason, IF she was over medicated when she left, that more was considered safer than less?
Whatever medication one takes for a certain condition then who suddenly stops taking it, the condition for which it was meant,returns with a vengeance. It's a dangerous practice and should be done gradually by reducing the amount as the patient improves. This goes for most prescription medication.
Because Sheila had her injection reduced on HER terms,and by not having taken her other vital medication,she knew what she was going to do and was fully prepared in her mind,as well as being in full control of her imminent actions.
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Whatever medication one takes for a certain condition then who suddenly stops taking it, the condition for which it was meant,returns with a vengeance. It's a dangerous practice and should be done gradually by reducing the amount as the patient improves. This goes for most prescription medication.
Because Sheila had her injection reduced on HER terms,and by not having taken her other vital medication,she knew what she was going to do and was fully prepared in her mind,as well as being in full control of her imminent actions.
OR, might it be possible that because her meds had been halved she thought she would no longer suffer the unwanted side effects she was taking the counter meds for, thus eliminating the need for them?
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OR, might it be possible that because her meds had been halved she thought she would no longer suffer the unwanted side effects she was taking the counter meds for, thus eliminating the need for them?
That is possible, it's accepted that schizophrenics are very likely to stop taking their meds as they believe they are 'better' and don't need medication any more, sadly this is when they are most likely to either become violent to others or towards themselves.
It was a huge problem in the 80s when so many schizophrenics were discharged from the huge mental hospitals and many left to fend for themselves in bedsits, many were totally institutionalised and used to having their meds handed out and watched when they swallowed them left to their own devices they tended to stop the meds or take them erratically and before long were very ill, living on the streets and at risk to themselves and sometimes to others.
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That is possible, it's accepted that schizophrenics are very likely to stop taking their meds as they believe they are 'better' and don't need medication any more, sadly this is when they are most likely to either become violent to others or towards themselves.
It was a huge problem in the 80s when so many schizophrenics were discharged from the huge mental hospitals and many left to fend for themselves in bedsits, many were totally institutionalised and used to having their meds handed out and watched when they swallowed them left to their own devices they tended to stop the meds or take them erratically and before long were very ill, living on the streets and at risk to themselves and sometimes to others.
I wonder if any of her medication was found at the farm? I've don't think I have seen any reference to any drugs... :-\ ;D ;D ;D ;D
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That is possible, it's accepted that schizophrenics are very likely to stop taking their meds as they believe they are 'better' and don't need medication any more, sadly this is when they are most likely to either become violent to others or towards themselves.
It was a huge problem in the 80s when so many schizophrenics were discharged from the huge mental hospitals and many left to fend for themselves in bedsits, many were totally institutionalised and used to having their meds handed out and watched when they swallowed them left to their own devices they tended to stop the meds or take them erratically and before long were very ill, living on the streets and at risk to themselves and sometimes to others.
If my new stance still allows for speculation, it may simply have been that she FELT better. Being HOPELESS with dates, I can't make them coincide, but it MAY have been around the time she met Christine, in which case her spirits would have been lifted and I feel sure she'd have wanted to tell her that she was so well she no longer needed such a high dose of meds. OR having previously been erratic in taking them, in her excitement of meeting Christine, did she simply forget.
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I don't think that Sheila forgot to take her medication,but although she'd have felt out of control and " ill " had she taken it,she was still aware of the consequences of not having taken it.
The crux of her behaviour came after Christine had left for Canada when Sheila had time to mull over their meeting and how things could have been so different with her in June's place.Even down to playing with the twins,there were no prayers,instead,Christine joined the boys on the floor and played as NORMAL.
Imagine a thousand and one things going around in Sheila's mind as well as comparing June to Christine,which I imagine came up in the conversation on the night of the murders. This is all that was needed for such a conversation to get heated.
Sheila,with a gun,at last felt able to speak out and speak her mind about what had gone on during the meeting. The woman snapped as her mind wouldn't have allowed her to reason in the normal way.
Sheila would have held a lot of her feelings and angst inside her because as it was said on many an occasion,she couldn't talk to her mother.Sheila would confide in her friends too and was desperate to speak to one of them before the tragedy,but this friend was busy,so everything was going against Sheila,who was really desperate at this point. The poor woman must have felt as though she'd been deserted by everyone,even her father at this point,who she would be on the phone for hours to,just for someone to talk to and who would listen to her.
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I wonder if any of her medication was found at the farm? I've don't think I have seen any reference to any drugs... :-\ ;D ;D ;D ;D
Interesting question patti, have never heard if it was found, there was nothing in her system except the Haloperidol and a trace of cannabis I think so she obviously hadn't taken any other drugs for a while, may even have forgotten them :-\ I think I read that JB said he had smoked some cannabis with her a few days before but cannabis hangs around in the body for quite a time, it can be detected for up to a month or a bit more after using I think, so she may not have even smoked that for a few weeks?
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Sheila's aim was to have another child,so she'd possibly have thought that if she didn't take her medication and stopped smoking cannabis,that she'd become pregnant then Colin would stay with her. It had been mentioned that she'd wanted another baby.
Poor soul,imagine how she must have felt when she found out that she wasn't. That was prior to her stay at the farm,and something else that hadn't gone her way.
I'd imagine that this too was part of the conversation that took place on the night, as well as the fact if she'd found out that Colin was to take over the boys 100%,leaving Sheila with arranged and supported access.
Why does anyone think that Colin had suggested this arrangement ? Nobody does,or says this without a good reason.
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Sheila's aim was to have another child,so she'd possibly have thought that if she didn't take her medication and stopped smoking cannabis,that she'd become pregnant then Colin would stay with her. It had been mentioned that she'd wanted another baby.
Poor soul,imagine how she must have felt when she found out that she wasn't. That was prior to her stay at the farm,and something else that hadn't gone her way.
I'd imagine that this too was part of the conversation that took place on the night, as well as the fact if she'd found out that Colin was to take over the boys 100%,leaving Sheila with arranged and supported access.
Why does anyone think that Colin had suggested this arrangement ? Nobody does,or says this without a good reason.
Curious then that she omitted to have her IUD removed, apart from which, the suggestion here, is that despite Colin being in an established relationship with another woman, Sheila had resumed a sexual relationship with him.
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Sheila's aim was to have another child,so she'd possibly have thought that if she didn't take her medication and stopped smoking cannabis,that she'd become pregnant then Colin would stay with her. It had been mentioned that she'd wanted another baby.
Poor soul,imagine how she must have felt when she found out that she wasn't. That was prior to her stay at the farm,and something else that hadn't gone her way.
I'd imagine that this too was part of the conversation that took place on the night, as well as the fact if she'd found out that Colin was to take over the boys 100%,leaving Sheila with arranged and supported access.
Why does anyone think that Colin had suggested this arrangement ? Nobody does,or says this without a good reason.
You can't possibly know any of that Lookout - Colin was in another relationship and last think he's have wanted was another child with Sheila.
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You can't possibly know any of that Lookout - Colin was in another relationship and last think he's have wanted was another child with Sheila.
It was Sheila who'd wanted another child,as maybe in her mind if she'd found herself pregnant it would have meant that they'd stay together.Which proves that she had no concept of the situation and chose to believe what she'd WANTED to believe,therefore proof that her mind wasn't functioning in normal mode.
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It was Sheila who'd wanted another child,as maybe in her mind if she'd found herself pregnant it would have meant that they'd stay together.Which proves that she had no concept of the situation and chose to believe what she'd WANTED to believe,therefore proof that her mind wasn't functioning in normal mode.
WHOA!!! Lookout!!!! Come back from wherever it is you're taking this. Sheila wanted another child!!!!! SAYS WHO and WITH WHOM?!!!! She'd been divorced from Colin for longer than she'd been married to him. She had no stable relationship and she couldn't cope with the children she'd got, PLUS she had an IUD fitted so she was HIGHLY unlikely to "find herself pregnant."
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WHOA!!! Lookout!!!! Come back from wherever it is you're taking this. Sheila wanted another child!!!!! SAYS WHO and WITH WHOM?!!!! She'd been divorced from Colin for longer than she'd been married to him. She had no stable relationship and she couldn't cope with the children she'd got, PLUS she had an IUD fitted so she was HIGHLY unlikely to "find herself pregnant."
I'm not the only one who'd read about this.I'm almost certain it was in a doctors report.
I wouldn't make it up.
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It was Sheila who'd wanted another child,as maybe in her mind if she'd found herself pregnant it would have meant that they'd stay together.Which proves that she had no concept of the situation and chose to believe what she'd WANTED to believe,therefore proof that her mind wasn't functioning in normal mode.
'Stay' together? They were 'divorced' - Colin was with someone else. It proves nothing because there is no proof that she wanted another child, with Colin or anyone else.
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I'm not the only one who'd read about this.I'm almost certain it was in a doctors report.
I wouldn't make it up.
Just because it's on the forum, doesn't make it a fact.
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I'm not the only one who'd read about this.I'm almost certain it was in a doctors report.
I wouldn't make it up.
Lookout, I wouldn't have questioned it had it been a quote from Colin -she MAY have suggested it as a means, albeit, a very poor one, of getting him back- but I'm quite certain I've not seen it in a doctor's report and it SIMPLY doesn't make sense. WHERE was she going to get this new child from? Colin wasn't interested. Freddie? Unlikely. A series of one night stands until she got lucky?..................and when did she plan to get the IUD removed? Sorry, Lookout, but a woman ACTIVELY using contraception is NOT looking to get pregnant.
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Okay so I've been seeing things-----------------------------again ! ::)
I'm just reading about June having been sectioned when Sheila was a baby. It was shortly after a photo was taken of her,Neville and Sheila as a baby. But hey,it can't be true because it's on the forum.,
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"ALL these women" out of how many stated as "NOT BEING AT RISK" who DON'T kill their children? Until we know what the stats are assessments can't be made. Nothing is EVER perfect and whilst we probably don't want to accept it, it MAY be that the answer falls within the bounds of what is considered to be acceptable.
It is actually on the rise in the US - don´t know about Europe. They reckon it is because of cuts in the mental health care.
Acceptable is a hard word to swallow in this context. Cynical world.
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Okay so I've been seeing things-----------------------------again ! ::)
I'm just reading about June having been sectioned when Sheila was a baby. It was shortly after a photo was taken of her,Neville and Sheila as a baby. But hey,it can't be true because it's on the forum.,
C'mon, Lookout, haven't you YET learned to question what you read here? Just as a memory jogger, there's all the mumbo jumbo about the Monastery that we all -OK, some of us- sucked up for years. Oh, and whilst those friends of June who are known to me, have ALL said she was mentally fragile, not ONE has even HINTED that she'd been sectioned.
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Okay so I've been seeing things-----------------------------again ! ::)
I'm just reading about June having been sectioned when Sheila was a baby. It was shortly after a photo was taken of her,Neville and Sheila as a baby. But hey,it can't be true because it's on the forum.,
Perhaps if you provided a link to back up your claims, people could see for themselves. You don't accept everything I say but I do try to provide links where possible - whereas you never do. Secondly, I didn't say you can't believe every single thing on the forum, I said ....... just because it's on the forum, doesn't make it a fact. ::)
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C'mon, Lookout, haven't you YET learned to question what you read here? Just as a memory jogger, there's all the mumbo jumbo about the Monastery that we all -OK, some of us- sucked up for years. Oh, and whilst those friends of June who are known to me, have ALL said she was mentally fragile, not ONE has even HINTED that she'd been sectioned.
You'll find reference to the sectioning in post 65 on the " Jeremy Pictures " heading on this forum.
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You'll find reference to the sectioning in post 65 on the " Jeremy Pictures " heading on this forum.
Well that's sorted then. I won't find it in a million years.
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FFS,Why so bloody nasty ??
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FFS,Why so bloody nasty ??
Do you mean Steve? I don´t think he is being nasty, I just think he doesn´t know how to find it. Personally I have no idea where to look from what you write - and I am not trying to be nasty, I just don´t know where to look.
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FFS,Why so bloody nasty ??
Sorry lookout I should really take an I.T. course.
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Sorry lookout I should really take an I.T. course.
I worked in IT for over 12 years and have no idea where to look either. Not enough information.
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http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1346.60.html
Post 65 in there?
That's as far as I am searching, once bitten twice shy I'm afraid!
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http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1346.60.html
Post 65 in there?
That's as far as I am searching, once bitten twice shy I'm afraid!
Cheers Mat, can't see anything there about wanting another child or getting back with Colin. ???
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Cheers Mat, can't see anything there about wanting another child or getting back with Colin. ???
no me either
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I think Lookout was on about sectioning? in post 65#
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I think Lookout was on about sectioning? in post 65#
Yes, just read back but someone on here using the term 'sectioned' doesn't mean she was. I think they have just misused the word.
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Yes, just read back but someone on here using the term 'sectioned' doesn't mean she was. I think they have just misused the word.
Funny how THAT can turn into all of the above. :-\
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I worked in IT for over 12 years and have no idea where to look either. Not enough information.
Doing an advanced search limiting responses to the subject field under Jeremy's pictures did the trick.
But as you and others have pointed out just because someone makes a claim here that doesn't mean it is true. Lookout has a habit of repeating claims from news articles books or other posters because she likes what they post and thus wants to accept it instead of treating the claim as an allegation and investigating to see whether it is actually true.
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Doing an advanced search limiting responses to the subject field under Jeremy's pictures did the trick.
But as you and others have pointed out just because someone makes a claim here that doesn't mean it is true. Lookout has a habit of repeating claims from news articles books or other posters because she likes what they post and thus wants to accept it instead of treating the claim as an allegation and investigating to see whether it is actually true.
Welcome back Scip.... ;)
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Doing an advanced search limiting responses to the subject field under Jeremy's pictures did the trick.
But as you and others have pointed out just because someone makes a claim here that doesn't mean it is true. Lookout has a habit of repeating claims from news articles books or other posters because she likes what they post and thus wants to accept it instead of treating the claim as an allegation and investigating to see whether it is actually true.
Hey! You're back! :)
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Hey! You're back! :)
yes though the message said my ban expired after 4 days it took 6 to wear off.
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yes though the message said my ban expired after 4 days it took 6 to wear off.
Not sure why that should be, but it may be due to the difference in time zones?
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Not sure why that should be, but it may be due to the difference in time zones?
Till you set your clocks ahead you are only 4 hours ahead. At worst you end up 6 hours ahead not 48 :P
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Till you set your clocks ahead you are only 4 hours ahead. At worst you end up 6 hours ahead not 48 :P
Maybe they thought they just needed a bit more peace? ;) ;D :P
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Do you mean Steve? I don´t think he is being nasty, I just think he doesn´t know how to find it. Personally I have no idea where to look from what you write - and I am not trying to be nasty, I just don´t know where to look.
Not being funny,Alias,but it was posted by your own fair hand ;D ;D ;D Do a search on here " Jeremy Pictures ! August 2011.
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It would appear that whatever I post these days,it comes under close scrutiny as though I've just made it up. After all, because NONE of us were at the scene and DON'T know what had happened,we ALL read what is already written in the hope that there might be some truth in it.,
Other than this,it's pretty much ALL supposition,so let's not forget that,particularly those who THINK that they're right !
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Not being funny,Alias,but it was posted by your own fair hand ;D ;D ;D Do a search on here " Jeremy Pictures ! August 2011.
It wasn't Alias, it was Chochokeira.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1346.msg42018.html#msg42018
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Doing an advanced search limiting responses to the subject field under Jeremy's pictures did the trick.
But as you and others have pointed out just because someone makes a claim here that doesn't mean it is true. Lookout has a habit of repeating claims from news articles books or other posters because she likes what they post and thus wants to accept it instead of treating the claim as an allegation and investigating to see whether it is actually true.
I have " a habit of repeating claims ",do I ? Take a look around you,again,I'm not the only one !!
It's ALL repetitive so far as I can see/read-------------nothing new,even from you,same old,same old BS.
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It wasn't Alias, it was Chochokeira.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1346.msg42018.html#msg42018
That was because in 2011,the way the posts appeared was misleading,but nevertheless I saw what was written and Keira was a good and knowledgeable poster.
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Not being funny,Alias,but it was posted by your own fair hand ;D ;D ;D Do a search on here " Jeremy Pictures ! August 2011.
APOLOGIES,Alias. It WASN'T you,it was Keira. I followed the wrong line down, as it was in 2011,when posts weren't " separated ".
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That was because in 2011,the way the posts appeared was misleading,but nevertheless I saw what was written and Keira was a good and knowledgeable poster.
I'm sure she was but JUST her 'say so' isn't enough to take it as a fact.
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I'm sure she was but JUST her 'say so' isn't enough to take it as a fact.
At the same time,I can't imagine that Keira would have said something like that without just cause.
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At the same time,I can't imagine that Keira would have said something like that without just cause.
People make mistakes but unless there is an official source, it's unreliable.
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People make mistakes but unless there is an official source, it's unreliable.
Where would Keira have got such information from ? She just wasn't the type to make anything up. It's quite possible that she's an Essex lass and got her info from someone " in the know ".We don't know.
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Andrea Yates who was going through the withdrawal ( cold turkey ) of Haloperidol, drowned her 5 children. Violence and feeling suicidal are part of the symptoms of withdrawal. Patients SHOULD be monitored for their reactions of reduction from the drug.
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An interesting question which was forwarded by a poster 4 years ago was,I quote, " If you needed a babysitter,who would you choose,a woman with a history of violence and psychotic attacks,or a man who was arrogant with no history of violence ?",unquote.
Be honest.
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Where would Keira have got such information from ? She just wasn't the type to make anything up. It's quite possible that she's an Essex lass and got her info from someone " in the know ".We don't know.
And as the only source for that comment - most likely, she was wrong. No one said she made it up but she could have incorrectly assumed that June was sectioned after suffering mental health issues. Unless it's a checkable fact Lookout, the comment is unreliable.
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And as the only source for that comment - most likely, she was wrong. No one said she made it up but she could have incorrectly assumed that June was sectioned after suffering mental health issues. Unless it's a checkable fact Lookout, the comment is unreliable.
It's always possible that Keira had got mixed up with Sheila,who was sectioned in the March after her most violent psychotic attack at the time.
No doubt this will come to our attention in due course as unseen/unknown notes on Sheila's illness will be at the forefront of the next submission.
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Colin had been warned by Dr Ferguson that further psychotic attacks such as the one which scared Freddie,would be more prevalent,in other words,would increase in number.
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It's always possible that Keira had got mixed up with Sheila,who was sectioned in the March after her most violent psychotic attack at the time.
No doubt this will come to our attention in due course as unseen/unknown notes on Sheila's illness will be at the forefront of the next submission.
No evidence states either was sectioned. They were admitted simply which suggests of their own free will they were admitted. Since Sheila left on her own accord that too suggests she was not their under an sectioning.
You never bother to make sure you have any evidence on your side before making a claim.
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No evidence states either was sectioned. They were admitted simply which suggests of their own free will they were admitted. Since Sheila left on her own accord that too suggests she was not their under an sectioning.
You never bother to make sure you have any evidence on your side before making a claim.
Where's all YOUR evidence to prove these things didn't happen.?
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It's always possible that Keira had got mixed up with Sheila,who was sectioned in the March after her most violent psychotic attack at the time.
No doubt this will come to our attention in due course as unseen/unknown notes on Sheila's illness will be at the forefront of the next submission.
To my certain knowledge Sheila, like June, was NEVER put under section.
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It's always possible that Keira had got mixed up with Sheila,who was sectioned in the March after her most violent psychotic attack at the time.
No doubt this will come to our attention in due course as unseen/unknown notes on Sheila's illness will be at the forefront of the next submission.
What makes you think Sheila was sectioned in March??
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Where's all YOUR evidence to prove these things didn't happen.?
The burden of proof rests with the proponent of a claim. I don't need to prove a negative you bear the burden of proving your claims.
The doctors said both women were admitted to the hospital which is a term that means of their own free will as opposed to saying they were sectioned and forced to go. The account of Sheila going features her instantly recognizing her father and calming down and then going to the hospital. There are no accounts saying she was forced to go against her will and no account that says she was kept there against her will and released by the doctors after they decided she was to be released from sectioning. There are suggestions that the doctor would have liked her to stay longer but she refused which means she had to be there of her own free will or she would not have been able to choose to leave.
Given the above upon what basis are you asserting Sheila was sectioned?
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What makes you think Sheila was sectioned in March??
I'm repeating what Keira had said and seemed to know,so DON'T be getting at ME again-okay ??
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People make mistakes but unless there is an official source, it's unreliable.
i doubt if there will still be records of an admittance that long ago its anybody's guess ether way.
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That's 3 of you now--------------------do some searching like I do instead of picking holes in my posts !!
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That's 3 of you now--------------------do some searching like I do instead of picking holes in my posts !!
1) She asked a question: "June was sectioned in a psychiatric hospital just a few months after this photograph was taken, wasn't she?" She didn't state it was a fact and didn't address Sheila.
2) Even if she had claimed it as a fact she offered no evidence for her claim so the proper way to treat it is as an unsupported allegation not a fact and you attribute an allegation by saying so and so alleges...
If something is a fact that was established already previously and it is well known that is a different matter. But that is not the case with this.
You say people are picking on you but people are correcting disinformation and simultaneously trying to help you to avoid falling into the same trap in the future by quoting unsupported allegations of commentators as facts. It doesn't matter if the commentator is someone on this board, an author of a book or magazine the author needs to ultimately have evidence to establish their claim for it to rise to the level of a fact.
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I'm repeating what Keira had said and seemed to know,so DON'T be getting at ME again-okay ??
She didn't say what you're saying though, Keira was asking.
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That's 3 of you now--------------------do some searching like I do instead of picking holes in my posts !!
You can't search for something that didn't happen.
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You can't search for something that didn't happen.
We did search for it though - the only source is Keria asking if it happened. No other documentation regarding Sheila or June being sectioned exits - so how can we search for that? ;D
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We did search for it though - the only source is Keria asking if it happened. No other documentation regarding Sheila or June being sectioned exits - so how can we search for that? ;D
Reminds me of;
Yesterday upon the stair
I met a man who wasn’t there
He wasn’t there again today
I wish, I wish he’d go away
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You can't search for something that didn't happen.
How are you to know it didn't happen if you don't search ?
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Reminds me of;
Yesterday upon the stair
I met a man who wasn’t there
He wasn’t there again today
I wish, I wish he’d go away
................or trying to prove a negative.
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Reminds me of;
Yesterday upon the stair
I met a man who wasn’t there
He wasn’t there again today
I wish, I wish he’d go away
;D ;D
................or trying to prove a negative.
Exactly. It's like me saying there is CCTV footage of BAMBER committing the crime. Then in 3 months time Caroline says there is CCTV footage of Bamber committing the crime, using my post as 'evidence' and then telling people to prove her wrong!!
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How are you to know it didn't happen if you don't search ?
But you did search for it and it still didn't happen, someone simply pondered it. If June had been sectioned, it would have been mentioned at the time of the trial or at least in one of the books. However, the only two sources for such a claim come from a question by Keira and you mentioning it earlier.
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;D ;D
Exactly. It's like me saying there is CCTV footage of BAMBER committing the crime. Then in 3 months time Caroline says there is CCTV footage of Bamber committing the crime, using my post as 'evidence' and then telling people to prove her wrong!!
Why wait three months?
There is CCTV footage of Bamber committing the crime! :o :o ;D
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Not being funny,Alias,but it was posted by your own fair hand ;D ;D ;D Do a search on here " Jeremy Pictures ! August 2011.
LOL - maybe I didn´t want to find it. 8)
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How are you to know it didn't happen if you don't search ?
A poster a long time ago said that it came from Colins book - that sc was sectioned under mental health act - so if someone does want to find the original source I suggest you could start there.Not commenting whether its true or not (:
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A poster a long time ago said that it came from Colins book - that sc was sectioned under mental health act - so if someone does want to find the original source I suggest you could start there.Not commenting whether its true or not (:
I will check Colin's book but in this instance the allegation was that 'June' was sectioned.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1346.msg42018.html#msg42018
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I will check Colin's book but in this instance the allegation was that 'June' was sectioned.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1346.msg42018.html#msg42018
He does talk about June's illness as well. But then again he may not be aware of the technical terms either. But I am not sure I could find anything in the book as it jumps about so much.
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A " family " of 4 were found stabbed to death in Gibraltar. A British man,Spanish woman and 2 children,one of which was a 6 week old baby.
It wasn't until a member of staff at the rented property tried to get access by knocking,that when there was no reply,it was reported to the police. Because the place was " locked from the inside ",alarm bells rang and police broke in to find 2 adults and 2 children butchered to death.
Police had said that they weren't looking for anyone else as they concluded it was murder/suicide.
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Another LOVING mother suffocated her son in the bathroom of a restaurant in Massachusets.Nobody can understand the mothers actions because she WAS such a loving mother ??
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Another LOVING mother suffocated her son in the bathroom of a restaurant in Massachusets.Nobody can understand the mothers actions because she WAS such a loving mother ??
The mother blamed the " devil " for killing her child. She had locked herself and her child in the bathroom.
For whatever reason,the mother wasn't taking her medication,. She smoked marijuana and at times showed a violent streak. One of her children was removed from her at some time and a past incident where she'd stabbed a family member.
Latisha had lived with her boyfriend and their 20 month old son.
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Sadly,once again,in 2013,a young woman suffering anxiety was told by her GP that he couldn't help her any more, then she threw herself in front of an oncoming train with her baby son in her arms.
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A " family " of 4 were found stabbed to death in Gibraltar. A British man,Spanish woman and 2 children,one of which was a 6 week old baby.
It wasn't until a member of staff at the rented property tried to get access by knocking,that when there was no reply,it was reported to the police. Because the place was " locked from the inside ",alarm bells rang and police broke in to find 2 adults and 2 children butchered to death.
Police had said that they weren't looking for anyone else as they concluded it was murder/suicide.
Police in Gibraltar confirmed that the mother took the lives of her husband/partner and two children,while suffering from post-natal depression.
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Hello lookout
It is so tragic to read stories of this nature and they seem to becoming more common and one wonders if it could have been avoided :(
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Hello lookout
It is so tragic to read stories of this nature and they seem to becoming more common and one wonders if it could have been avoided :(
Hello Susan-----------yes,this sort of tragedy could possibly be avoided with the proper" surveillance" of patients by following their medical history,particularly women who've had previous pregnancies or have suffered some sort of depressive illness prior to pregnancy.
I think this family lived in Spain initially before they moved to Gibraltar,but what their reason for moving was I don't know.Nor would I know if medical notes,etc,were transferred ?? Very sad to reach such a pitch in life that can no longer be borne.
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The inquiries are taking place of the young mother who threw herself and new baby off the bridge at Avon last December. The mother had been taking Risperidone,a powerful drug for schizophrenia. She was told to stop taking the drug altogether when the woman said that she wished to breast-feed her baby. The withdrawal symptoms of stopping these drugs have devastating effects which result in suicide. Sadly this happened and the inquest will take beyond summer to reach a conclusion.
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Andrea Yates had been taken off her Haloperidol when she drowned her 5 children. She too was ridding them from evil,being another religious person,so thought by killing them that she'd free them of the evil that they " possessed ".
It's definitely the withdrawal/reduction of these powerful drugs which causes the patient to kill,as they become more and more agitated and their thoughts are skewed.
Any medication,whatever it is, once it's stopped, can cause symptoms of an illness to return with a vengeance,and for what little that was left in Sheila's system,would have caused her inner problems.
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There's another sad case today in your area lookout: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-32364609
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Andrea Yates had been taken off her Haloperidol when she drowned her 5 children. She too was ridding them from evil,being another religious person,so thought by killing them that she'd free them of the evil that they " possessed ".
It's definitely the withdrawal/reduction of these powerful drugs which causes the patient to kill,as they become more and more agitated and their thoughts are skewed.
Any medication,whatever it is, once it's stopped, can cause symptoms of an illness to return with a vengeance,and for what little that was left in Sheila's system,would have caused her inner problems.
Sheila wasn't taken off it, she had her dose reduced.
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Sheila wasn't taken off it, she had her dose reduced.
Yes, she had it halved.
It is recommended that when your Haloperidol dose is reduced, it is reduced with 10 mg at a time - the reaction or lack of reaction should be monitored, and if the patient seems all right, another 10 mg can be cut off the dose.
It is further recommended that this takes place in a hospital setting.
There are many examples of patients who have had their dose reduced dramatically who act out violently and yes, kill other people or themselves.
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Yes, she had it halved. (1)
It is recommended that when your Haloperidol dose is reduced, it is reduced with 10 mg at a time - the reaction or lack of reaction should be monitored, and if the patient seems all right, another 10 mg can be cut off the dose.
It is further recommended that this takes place in a hospital setting.
There are many examples of patients who have had their dose reduced dramatically who act out violently and yes, kill other people or themselves.(2)
(1) I know.
(2) And many more examples of people who haven't.
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Yes, she had it halved.
It is recommended that when your Haloperidol dose is reduced, it is reduced with 10 mg at a time - the reaction or lack of reaction should be monitored, and if the patient seems all right, another 10 mg can be cut off the dose.
It is further recommended that this takes place in a hospital setting.
There are many examples of patients who have had their dose reduced dramatically who act out violently and yes, kill other people or themselves.
The recommended cut is from a starting point of between 50 and 100MG They don't prescribe over 200MG anymore because more than 100MG is neither considered safe nor is significantly more effective than 50-100MG.
She was being given way too much Haldol and she wasn't taking a countering agent which is why she was over tranquilized.
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There's another sad case today in your area lookout: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-32364609
Yes,Steve,I read it in the Liverpool Echo. He's still on the run I think,but what's behind the murders we don't know as yet.
He could be found hanging from a tree somewhere,as is usual in these cases.
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The recommended cut is from a starting point of between 50 and 100MG They don't prescribe over 200MG anymore because more than 100MG is neither considered safe nor is significantly more effective than 50-100MG.
She was being given way too much Haldol and she wasn't taking a countering agent which is why she was over tranquilized.
But she did miss her dose for July and there are questions to be asked there as well as how she might have reacted by August 7,which if you work out the timeline would have been around the time all of the Haloperidol would have worn off.
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But she did miss her dose for July and there are questions to be asked there as well as how she might have reacted by August 7,which if you work out the timeline would have been around the time all of the Haloperidol would have worn off.
She didn't miss any dose, she was given her July injection on July 11, 1985. That is the dose that was 100MG instead of the 200MG she had been receiving.
For the injections:
"Optimally effective doses appear to be around 50-100 mg/4 weeks. The use of doses above 100 mg/4 weeks is difficult to support given data available."
http://pb.rcpsych.org/content/29/3/104.full
As I pointed out in the past they stopped manufacturing the Decanoate (injections) in dosages higher than 100MG. When they use extremely high dosages it is done orally and done only for a limited period of time. It is done specifically to sedate they use extremely high doses in order to tranquilize someone when they don't want to use an ordinary tranquilizer.
She never should have been on 200MG based on what we know today and what we know today is that reducing her to 100MG would not reduce the effectiveness.
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Sheila wasn't taken off it, she had her dose reduced.
As you've highlighted----------Andrea Yates was taken off it. I DIDN'T say Sheila was. ::) Oh God !
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But she did miss her dose for July and there are questions to be asked there as well as how she might have reacted by August 7,which if you work out the timeline would have been around the time all of the Haloperidol would have worn off.
And she wasn't being monitored.
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Sheila´s regular doctor, Dr. Angelou, was angry that Dr. Wilkinson halved Sheila´s dose two days after she began working at her practice.
Why would she be if it didn´t matter one bit?
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She didn't miss any dose, she was given her July injection on July 11, 1985. That is the dose that was 100MG instead of the 200MG she had been receiving.
For the injections:
"Optimally effective doses appear to be around 50-100 mg/4 weeks. The use of doses above 100 mg/4 weeks is difficult to support given data available."
http://pb.rcpsych.org/content/29/3/104.full
As I pointed out in the past they stopped manufacturing the Decanoate (injections) in dosages higher than 100MG. When they use extremely high dosages it is done orally and done only for a limited period of time. It is done specifically to sedate they use extremely high doses in order to tranquilize someone when they don't want to use an ordinary tranquilizer.
She never should have been on 200MG based on what we know today and what we know today is that reducing her to 100MG would not reduce the effectiveness.
But she wasn't being monitored. No one checked if she was taking her countering meds. No one visited to make sure she felt OK on the new dose. I know little of anti psychotics but I DO know about anti depressants and they can't be massively reduced in one dose. They have to be reduced very slowly over long periods or the results can be disastrous.
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But she wasn't being monitored. No one checked if she was taking her countering meds. No one visited to make sure she felt OK on the new dose. I know little of anti psychotics but I DO know about anti depressants and they can't be massively reduced in one dose. They have to be reduced very slowly over long periods or the results can be disastrous.
Scipio refuses to accept this.
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As you've highlighted----------Andrea Yates was taken off it. I DIDN'T say Sheila was. ::) Oh God !
Yates wasn't taken off Haldol. Yates was taking Venlafaxine and shortly before the murders her dose was nearly doubled to 450MG a day. At this level Venlafaxine is known to produce homicidal tendencies and to increase suicide. She was also taking other drugs that she should not have been taking with it.
Her doctor said she was the hardest patient to treat because she was resistant to normal treatment.
There is no comparison at all between her and Sheila.
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Sheila´s regular doctor, Dr. Anelou, was angry that Dr. Wilkinson halved Sheila´s dose two days after she began working at her practice.
Why would she be if it didn´t matter one bit?
Because she wasn't consulted. The medical data is the medical data. You are trying to ignore the CURRENT knowledge in a wasted bias attempt to try to pretend that the reduction would have reduced the effectiveness when it would not have. They don't even make more than 100MG injections anymore because there is no market for it, there is no medical reason seen for prescribing more than 100MG injections.
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But she wasn't being monitored. No one checked if she was taking her countering meds. No one visited to make sure she felt OK on the new dose. I know little of anti psychotics but I DO know about anti depressants and they can't be massively reduced in one dose. They have to be reduced very slowly over long periods or the results can be disastrous.
Totally agree April, whoever killed the family it's true Sheila's after care and ongoing care was appalling.imo
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Anti-depressants and homicidal ideation
Rusty and his birth family came to believe that a combination of antidepressants improperly prescribed by Dr. Saeed in the days before the tragedy was responsible for Andrea's violent, psychotic behavior.[41][42] According to Dr. Moira Dolan, executive director of the Medical Accountability Network, "homicidal ideation" was added to the warning label of the antidepressant drug Effexor as a rare adverse event, in 2005. Yates, she said, had been taking 450 mg, twice the recommended maximum dose, for a month before killing her children. Dr. Dolan reviewed her medical record at the request of Rusty.[43]
Dr. Lucy Puryear, an expert witness hired by Yates' defense team, countered their contention regarding the administration of her antidepressants, saying the dosages prescribed by Dr. Saeed are not uncommon in practice and had nothing at all to do with her reemergent psychosis. She suggested rather that her psychosis returned as a result of the Haldol having been discontinued by her doctor two weeks earlier.[41] The oral form of haloperidol (Haldol) takes 4–6 days after discontinuation to reach a terminal plasma level of under 1.5%—a medical standard for "complete" elimination of a drug from the body
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Thanks Alias,that's what I read too. Can't argue with Scipio,he ALWAYS has to be right. ::)
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Thanks Alias,that's what I read too. Can't argue with Scipio,he ALWAYS has to be right. ::)
You´re welcome, Lookie! ;D
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Because she wasn't consulted. The medical data is the medical data. You are trying to ignore the CURRENT knowledge in a wasted bias attempt to try to pretend that the reduction would have reduced the effectiveness when it would not have. They don't even make more than 100MG injections anymore because there is no market for it, there is no medical reason seen for prescribing more than 100MG injections.
Unfortunately, CURRENT knowledge wasn't available 30 years ago so it may not be correct to compare directly. I'm prepared to accept that you're right about the lower dose being as effective as the higher but I'm NOT prepared to accept that it's correct to lower the dose in one hit without monitoring the patient. They halved the dose and set her adrift. The psych nurses didn't turn up and there was no follow up appointment booked until after her death which would have made it 20 plus(?) weeks from her discharging herself from hospital. NONE of which has to do with what Jeremy did.
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But she did miss her dose for July and there are questions to be asked there as well as how she might have reacted by August 7,which if you work out the timeline would have been around the time all of the Haloperidol would have worn off.
Steve,I believe this subject forms part of the medical notes for submission.
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Anti-depressants and homicidal ideation
Rusty and his birth family came to believe that a combination of antidepressants improperly prescribed by Dr. Saeed in the days before the tragedy was responsible for Andrea's violent, psychotic behavior.[41][42] According to Dr. Moira Dolan, executive director of the Medical Accountability Network, "homicidal ideation" was added to the warning label of the antidepressant drug Effexor as a rare adverse event, in 2005. Yates, she said, had been taking 450 mg, twice the recommended maximum dose, for a month before killing her children. Dr. Dolan reviewed her medical record at the request of Rusty.[43]
Dr. Lucy Puryear, an expert witness hired by Yates' defense team, countered their contention regarding the administration of her antidepressants, saying the dosages prescribed by Dr. Saeed are not uncommon in practice and had nothing at all to do with her reemergent psychosis. She suggested rather that her psychosis returned as a result of the Haldol having been discontinued by her doctor two weeks earlier.[41] The oral form of haloperidol (Haldol) takes 4–6 days after discontinuation to reach a terminal plasma level of under 1.5%—a medical standard for "complete" elimination of a drug from the body
Very interesting imo
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This does have similarities to Sheila. Patients are at their most dangerous point when such medication has been stopped/reduced.
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Anti-depressants and homicidal ideation
Rusty and his birth family came to believe that a combination of antidepressants improperly prescribed by Dr. Saeed in the days before the tragedy was responsible for Andrea's violent, psychotic behavior.[41][42] According to Dr. Moira Dolan, executive director of the Medical Accountability Network, "homicidal ideation" was added to the warning label of the antidepressant drug Effexor as a rare adverse event, in 2005. Yates, she said, had been taking 450 mg, twice the recommended maximum dose, for a month before killing her children. Dr. Dolan reviewed her medical record at the request of Rusty.[43]
Dr. Lucy Puryear, an expert witness hired by Yates' defense team, countered their contention regarding the administration of her antidepressants, saying the dosages prescribed by Dr. Saeed are not uncommon in practice and had nothing at all to do with her reemergent psychosis. She suggested rather that her psychosis returned as a result of the Haldol having been discontinued by her doctor two weeks earlier.[41] The oral form of haloperidol (Haldol) takes 4–6 days after discontinuation to reach a terminal plasma level of under 1.5%—a medical standard for "complete" elimination of a drug from the body
Yates stopped getting Haldol injections in late 1999. Her insurance company didn't want to pay for it anymore. After the birth of her 5th child she went downhill and for a period of 1 month she was orally being given 2mg of Haldol at night and 2mg in the morning. This was discontinued because the doctor didn't view her as psychotic. Both prior to, during and after the month she was orally on Haldol she was on Effexor XR and Remeron which is a dangerous combo. The dose of Remeron was increased from 45mg to 60mg and the dose of Remeron decreased from 450mg to 300mg.
While Sheila showed no signs of getting worse the month before the murders, Yates did show such signs including exhibiting signs of severe depression. Furthermore she had made suicidal attempts in he past.
There isn't any comparison at all to Yates situation and that of Sheila.
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Question from: Cita: Dr.Deltito having been on an antidepressant and gone off "cold turkey" -- not advised :-) I know, and mine was only Paxil-- my question is: considering the "heavy drugs" that Andrea was on, could that sudden withdrawal cause a spiral such as she had?
Dr. Joseph Deltito: Yes It is possible that she would've had a gentler course if whatever medicine she was on was either maintained or withdrawn more slowly.
http://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/law/12/11/court.archive.yates9/
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Question from: Cita: Dr.Deltito having been on an antidepressant and gone off "cold turkey" -- not advised :-) I know, and mine was only Paxil-- my question is: considering the "heavy drugs" that Andrea was on, could that sudden withdrawal cause a spiral such as she had?
Dr. Joseph Deltito: Yes It is possible that she would've had a gentler course if whatever medicine she was on was either maintained or withdrawn more slowly.
http://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/law/12/11/court.archive.yates9/
Haldol isn't an anti-depressant. It is an anti-psychotic. The testimony at trial was her doctor was essentially that have didn't see signs she was psychotic and thus that the Haldol wasn't needed. She remained on her anti-depressants though he adjusted the dosages near the murders and the mix is not considered a good one. The dosage of 1 was increased higher than is considered safe while the other was cut by a much larger margin than was considered advisable. She tried to kill herself in the past which made matters worse. She was being seen on a regular basis because of her condition was one that was at risk.
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Everywhere I look it says that Andrea Yates was in Haloperidol withdrawal - which can be very severe. "Haloperidol is also known as Haldol and can cause one of the worst withdrawal processes known to man."
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So so true,Alias.It's lethal.
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Everywhere I look it says that Andrea Yates was in Haloperidol withdrawal - which can be very severe. "Haloperidol is also known as Haldol and can cause one of the worst withdrawal processes known to man."
Withdrawal wasn't the problem she was only on it for a month. Her other medications were the problem. Some think that if she remained on the Haldol it would have helped because they think she was psychotic and think it would have kept her at bay. Others don't think she was psychotic just acted because of her depression. The lack of Haldol not withdrawal was the biggest problem alleged in the complaint against the doctor.
But in the past while on Haldol she tried killing herself. Moreover, she had prepared to kill her kids in the past though her husband came home and found the tub full before she had the chance. She could not handle the death of her father it had a very bad effect on her and that was used by the defense to establish she was crazy. These efforts failed at her first trial. She was extremely fortunate that a prosecution expert made a mistake and suggested there was a law and order episode like this and maybe she was faking insanity to get off. He merged two episodes together by accident. That mistake allowed a new trial so a second bite at the apple and that jury believed she was crazy.
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June was still receiving treatment on the 6th of August for the bout of depression which marred her life from 3 years prior after the loss Neville's mother in a nursing home.
Would anyone know anything about the " treatment " that June had been receiving ? Medication,etc. ?
Neville had more than his fare share of burdens to bear at that time with both ( warring ) women as well as running the farm and seeing to the harvest at that time of the year. His usual strength and stamina would have been at an all-time low,hence his inability to fend off his daughter,who'd turned against her father for supporting/agreeing with his ill wife and not the daughter who'd always relied on her dad supporting her. There was bound to be ructions before long,and in Sheila's mind,why not then while they were all there ?
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When you think back,after Jeremy was arrested, it was a few days before he engaged a solicitor,as he thought that what he had to say to EP would be taken in good faith knowing that he was telling them the truth.
Anyone planning a murder makes doubly sure that a solicitor is present before a word is said,normally,in the event that they're caught ! Jeremy had no fear of being " caught " because he knew in himself that he was in the clear.
MOST people,guilty or not,engage a solicitor . ::)
No doubt,because at the first arrest,when no solicitor had been present,and soon after the tragedy,Jeremy's statement would have been cobbled together ( edited ) afterwards when it was typed out. Whether Jeremy made notes afterwards I don't know,but he should have done under the circumstances,afterall,EVERYONE else had done.! Talk about being naïve.Jeremy had a lot to learn.
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No allowances were made by EP on the state of mind that Jeremy must have been in.No offer of assistance,nor the help of a solicitor. How can anyone function properly through shock/trauma and valium,for the length of time it took in questioning him about times,etc after losing all his family ?
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This man is innocent,and can't get past all the red-tape and bureaucracy that the system is riddled with.
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According to Vanezis,Sheila suffered a cardiac arrest after the first shot. ? This would have accounted for the congestion which was found to be in her lungs.
This doesn't make sense because Sheila would then have died before the second shot was administered.?
Which would confirm what I've said,in that Sheila hadn't killed herself,but someone did.The first I'd reckoned was an " accidental " shot while struggling between two people in trying to get the rifle.
This is where Vanezis contradicted himself by saying that Sheila would/could have moved around for a short while after the first shot,yet in the next breath,he says that she suffered a cardiac arrest ?
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When JM was interviewed,IF she'd have thought/known that Jeremy committed the murders,why did she bother mentioning MM ??
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When JM was interviewed,IF she'd have thought/known that Jeremy committed the murders,why did she bother mentioning MM ??
Because she initially believed Jeremy's claims that MM was involved and even if she hadn't she was supposed to be telling police everything Jeremy had told her.
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Because she initially believed Jeremy's claims that MM was involved and even if she hadn't she was supposed to be telling police everything Jeremy had told her.
Like she blamed Jeremy for the fraud which she herself committed and thought up between her and her friend ? If Jeremy wasn't good at much else,he was good at taking the blame for everyone ! A right mug.
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It is possible that Jeremy was winding up a gullible JM for laughs, telling her he paid MM to kill the family. She seems to believe the story of the diamond robbery, although having a bag of diamonds didn't help Jeremy raise enough cash for a ticket home. He had to take a loan from Neville.
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Like she blamed Jeremy for the fraud which she herself committed and thought up between her and her friend ? If Jeremy wasn't good at much else,he was good at taking the blame for everyone ! A right mug.
She blamed him for corrupting her but said she couldn't say to what extent he did such. She didn't blame him for the theft.
"Jeremy would often tease me about being a goody two shoes and goaded me about how I had never done anything wrong in my life. Before I met Jeremy I hadn't really done anything wrong. Jeremy did have an influence on me but how much I can't say." She went on to say, "I don't know what the trigger was to eventually carrying it out."
You are so biased you ridiculously suggested she corrupted him and got him to rob the caravan site.
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She blamed him for corrupting her but said she couldn't say to what extent he did such. She didn't blame him for the theft.
"Jeremy would often tease me about being a goody two shoes and goaded me about how I had never done anything wrong in my life. Before I met Jeremy I hadn't really done anything wrong. Jeremy did have an influence on me but how much I can't say." She went on to say, "I don't know what the trigger was to eventually carrying it out."
You are so biased you ridiculously suggested she corrupted him and got him to rob the caravan site.
You say the stupidest things. I did NOT say that she'd corrupted him to rob the caravan site,though I notice that she " went along with him " on that instead of backing off.
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You say the stupidest things. I did NOT say that she'd corrupted him to rob the caravan site,though I notice that she " went along with him " on that instead of backing off.
She didn't just go along, she tried to reach a key but was not skinny enough to fit far enough to reach it so her efforts failed and he got in himself. She admitted she had done such that is how we know. If she hadn't mentioned the Caravan burglary Jeremy surely would not have brought it up.
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She didn't just go along, she tried to reach a key but was not skinny enough to fit far enough to reach it so her efforts failed and he got in himself. She admitted she had done such that is how we know. If she hadn't mentioned the Caravan burglary Jeremy surely would not have brought it up.
Not skinny enough ? She was no two-ton-Tess and thinner than Jeremy.
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Not skinny enough ? She was no two-ton-Tess and thinner than Jeremy.
Well she could not squeeze in enough to reach the key so he had to break in instead.
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Everywhere I look it says that Andrea Yates was in Haloperidol withdrawal - which can be very severe. "Haloperidol is also known as Haldol and can cause one of the worst withdrawal processes known to man."
as we have pionted out and posted sources for hundreds of times.
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as we have pionted out and posted sources for hundreds of times.
The Yates situation is not comparable at all. Yates had different afflictions, had attempted suicide in the past, and there is even evidence to suggest she planned to kill her kids at a prior time but had been interrupted by her husband before she had the chance to drown them. She was on Haldol for only a month and stopped taking it completely. It wasn't withdrawal from Haldol that was the problem it was the complete absence of it or any other psychotic medication.
Sheila in contrast had not tried to kill herself and wasn't taken off Haldol she was given 100MG of Haldol which is the maximum effective dose.
Alias and you keep ignoring the facts and evidence because you are biased. You don't give a damn about the truth you both decided Sheila did it and Jeremy is innocent inspite of evidence that establishes the complete opposite and just fish for things you twist to support your assertion she would have done it.
Yates' doctor said he didn't feel she was psychotic so he didn't keep her on Haldol. Her first jury didn't believe she was crazy either. She got lucky that a prosecution witness made a mistake about a TV program and thus she got a new trial and at that trial was able to convince the jury she was crazy. None of this has any bearing on the Bamber case of course.
In the Bamber case Sheila was on the maximum effective dosage of Haldol and there is nothing at all to suggest the Haldol stopped working and that she had a psychotic episode. The only evidence of her having episodes is when she wasn't taking medication. There is nothing to suggest she ever became violent towards others during any of the episodes she had when she wasn't taking her medication.
If Sheila had committed the murders then her clothing and body would have had GSR/soot, high velocity impact spatter from Nevill and June and medium velocity impact spatter from Nevill. She had none which means she can't have killed them. There are a host of reasons she can't have killed herself she was murdered. You and Alsia, among others, ignore this evidence and then try harping on her mental state saying essentially she was crazy so she must have done it.
You are doing exactly what Jeremy hoped people would do. Just decide a crazy person would have to commit such a crime so Sheila must have done it.
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Do you not think we should wait and see what's in the next submission ( re.Sheila's medical history ) before jumping in feet first saying that the woman was totally compos mentis and " couldn't possibly have done what she did "?
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Do you not think we should wait and see what's in the next submission ( re.Sheila's medical history ) before jumping in feet first saying that the woman was totally compos mentis and " couldn't possibly have done what she did "?
I have certainly never thought or suggested that Sheila 'couldn't' have been responsible but everything from the phone call to Jeremy's behaviour pre and post murders points to him and trying to shift the blame back onto Sheila through old medical records hasn't got a hope! Jeremy seems to have abandoned the idea of completing the work that was started and included in the last submissions, he's now jumping on something else and it just makes the whole thing sound desperate. I can see the big red 'REJECTED' stamp hotting up in someone's hands already!
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I have certainly never thought or suggested that Sheila 'couldn't' have been responsible but everything from the phone call to Jeremy's behaviour pre and post murders points to him and trying to shift the blame back onto Sheila through old medical records hasn't got a hope! Jeremy seems to have abandoned the idea of completing the work that was started and included in the last submissions, he's now jumping on something else and it just makes the whole thing sound desperate. I can see the big red 'REJECTED' stamp hotting up in someone's hands already!
Caroline,believe you me I see shifty behaviour on a daily basis just being out and about minding my own business, that if you happened to look at any of them the wrong way it would be woe-betide you--------or would it ? Looks,behaviour,mannerisms don't mean a thing,nor do they either equate to a person being a criminal/murderer, so your suggestion of " behaviour pre-post murders" is pretty weak to say the least.
The obvious reason that Jeremy is now seeking a different area of the investigation is that until of late, all Sheila's medical records had been unobtainable.
I sincerely hope that there are a bunch of law students involved in going through the case, as new brooms always sweep cleaner and what's needed is one effing great yardbrush to make a breakthrough.
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Do you not think we should wait and see what's in the next submission ( re.Sheila's medical history ) before jumping in feet first saying that the woman was totally compos mentis and " couldn't possibly have done what she did "?
Sheila's mental history has no ability to refute the evidence that convicted Jeremy. Jeremy was convicted based on testimony he told Julie he planned to kill his family and frame Sheila, and evidence that Sheila was murdered and her death was staged to appear as a suicide. Also on evidence that Sheila didn't beat or kill any of the other victims so clearly the same person who murdered her also murdered them. Her mental history is totally irrelevant to this evidence.
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Caroline,believe you me I see shifty behaviour on a daily basis just being out and about minding my own business, that if you happened to look at any of them the wrong way it would be woe-betide you--------or would it ? Looks,behaviour,mannerisms don't mean a thing,nor do they either equate to a person being a criminal/murderer, so your suggestion of " behaviour pre-post murders" is pretty weak to say the least.
The obvious reason that Jeremy is now seeking a different area of the investigation is that until of late, all Sheila's medical records had been unobtainable.
I sincerely hope that there are a bunch of law students involved in going through the case, as new brooms always sweep cleaner and what's needed is one effing great yardbrush to make a breakthrough.
I'm not talking about 'Looks or mannerisms' I'm talking about how he tried to rid WHF of his fathers clothes, how he started selling off antiques even before the funerals, his trips away and complete lack of interest in the farm (that he is supposed to have loved so much). I don't think any law students would be interested in the case for long, or at all because once you blow away the smoke screen, you can see Jeremy loading the rifle - and not to shoot rabbits.
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I'm not talking about 'Looks or mannerisms' I'm talking about how he tried to rid WHF of his fathers clothes, how he started selling off antiques even before the funerals, his trips away and complete lack of interest in the farm (that he is supposed to have loved so much). I don't think any law students would be interested in the case for long, or at all because once you blow away the smoke screen, you can see Jeremy loading the rifle - and not to shoot rabbits.
What's wrong in wanting to get rid of his father's clothes ? I got rid of my late husband's clothes,etc.
I also sold some antiques too,and gold sovereigns as well as old American dollars,which my daughter used when she went to the States,where she got 5 times more for their worth.
I don't see any smoke-screen.I have a clear view----------and my glass is always half-full.
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What's wrong in wanting to get rid of his father's clothes ? I got rid of my late husband's clothes,etc.
I also sold some antiques too,and gold sovereigns as well as old American dollars,which my daughter used when she went to the States,where she got 5 times more for their worth.
I don't see any smoke-screen.I have a clear view----------and my glass is always half-full.
What Jeremy did there is actually what people do when there is a death in the family - or like in this case deats before someone pops up and hits me over the head.
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I'm not talking about 'Looks or mannerisms' I'm talking about how he tried to rid WHF of his fathers clothes, how he started selling off antiques even before the funerals, his trips away and complete lack of interest in the farm (that he is supposed to have loved so much). I don't think any law students would be interested in the case for long, or at all because once you blow away the smoke screen, you can see Jeremy loading the rifle - and not to shoot rabbits.
you might habe a point about the other stuff
but why would he not get rid of his fathers clothes what use were they to him.
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What's wrong in wanting to get rid of his father's clothes ? I got rid of my late husband's clothes,etc.
I also sold some antiques too,and gold sovereigns as well as old American dollars,which my daughter used when she went to the States,where she got 5 times more for their worth.
I don't see any smoke-screen.I have a clear view----------and my glass is always half-full.
Did you drive a trailer up to your back door and unceremoniously toss them into it? I doubt it. Jeremy didn't just sell off a few coins and he wanted the cash for himself.
I'm glad your glass in half full but don't be too quick to raise it in celebration of Jeremy's release because if he's banking on an appeal from Sheila's medical records, he's on another hiding to nowhere.
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you might habe a point about the other stuff
but why would he not get rid of his fathers clothes what use were they to him.
It's the methods he used to get rid of them Nugs. Cold hearted to say the least!
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It's the methods he used to get rid of them Nugs. Cold hearted to say the least!
How should he have done it?
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How should he have done it?
So you think the method is acceptable?
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I don't think he got rid of his fathers clothes that quick because there were a few days to a week before he went into the farm house.
Having seen Mr Cock Jeremy was aware that he needed to pay inheritance taxes. With Mr Cock's permission Jeremy was allowed to sell items from the farm to raise the money. I think a piece of machinery was sold within the family.
Does anyone know the date that Jeremy decided to throw his fathers clothes away?
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So you think the method is acceptable?
Yes. It is what is done. I am curious about how you suggest he should have done it.
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I don't think he got rid of his fathers clothes that quick because there were a few days to a week before he went into the farm house.
Having seen Mr Cock Jeremy was aware that he needed to pay inheritance taxes. With Mr Cock's permission Jeremy was allowed to sell items from the farm to raise the money. I think a piece of machinery was sold within the family.
Does anyone know the date that Jeremy decided to throw his fathers clothes away?
He went back to WHF for the first time on 12th August only 5 days after the murders. 5 days before throwing his dads clothes into a trailer. If people think that is an acceptable way to behave, then that for them to deal with. Personally, I think it shows just how cold hearted he was/is and a complete lack of respect for his father as a person and a victim of a horrendous murder. I haven't seen any statement by Mr Cock that claims he gave permission for items to be sold for inheritance tax purposes. He hadn't inherited anything at that point and the lack of funds certainly didn't stop him from enjoying a few holidays and giving Julie £200.00.
The date of throwing the clothes away is in one of AE's statements.
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Yes. It is what is done. I am curious about how you suggest he should have done it.
Sorry Alias, you might think throwing a loved ones clothes into an old manky trailer is acceptable but I don't and it's not 'what is done'. I gave my dads clothes to charity several weeks AFTER his funeral. I also kept one or two things. Then again, I didn't kill my dad for the inheritance.
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Yes. It is what is done. I am curious about how you suggest he should have done it.
Hi Alias
I think everyone deals with closure in different ways. When my father died his clothes were sent to the charity shop the day after his funeral.
When my mum died my step father keep her clothes for months, he could not face getting rid of them.
I know my step mother loved my father dearly, but it was her choice to get rid of his clothes, she even gave some of them to his friends and neighbours.
I doubt there is a set rule.... :(
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He went back to WHF for the first time on 12th August only 5 days after the murders. 5 days before throwing his dads clothes into a trailer. If people think that is an acceptable way to behave, then that for them to deal with. Personally, I think it shows just how cold hearted he was/is and a complete lack of respect for his father as a person and a victim of a horrendous murder. I haven't seen any statement by Mr Cock that claims he gave permission for items to be sold for inheritance tax purposes. He hadn't inherited anything at that point and the lack of funds certainly didn't stop him from enjoying a few holidays and giving Julie £200.00.
The date of throwing the clothes away is in one of AE's statements.
What do you suggest he should have done with the clothes? Buried them and held a ceremony?
This is how you throw out clothes, can´t see anything awful in it - have done it myself even.
It is not nice, but it has to be done.
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My guess is that some of Nevill´s clothes were not good enough to give to charity. He worked on a farm and looked like a down to earth man who would use his clothes until they were worn and torn.
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What do you suggest he should have done with the clothes? Buried them and held a ceremony?
This is how you throw out clothes, can´t see anything awful in it - have done it myself even.
It is not nice, but it has to be done.
I think he should have shown some respect for the man he'd just murdered - that's what I think! I didn't think for one moment you would admit to seeing anything awful in what he did. I wonder how many people (other than you) would contemplate throwing out their recently deceased parents clothes into an old trailer?
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I think he should have shown some respect for the man he'd just murdered - that's what I think! I didn't think for one moment you would admit to seeing anything awful in what he did. I wonder how many people (other than you) would contemplate throwing out their recently deceased parents clothes into an old trailer?
Thanks for making me feel good about myself.
I have had to do this for an old relative who died in a nursing home - in another town in Denmark. What should I have done with the clothes other than throw them in a container?
It is done, not nice, but done.
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My guess is that some of Nevill´s clothes were not good enough to give to charity. He worked on a farm and looked like a down to earth man who would use his clothes until they were worn and torn.
And some would be good enough.
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Thanks for making me feel good about myself.
Why should you feel anything other than good? You don't think there is anything wrong in what he did and stated;
"This is how you throw out clothes, can´t see anything awful in it - have done it myself even.
It is not nice, but it has to be done"
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Why should you feel anything other than good? You don't think there is anything wrong in what he did and stated;
"This is how you throw out clothes, can´t see anything awful in it - have done it myself even.
It is not nice, but it has to be done"
Yes, and again thanks for making me feel nice having had to do exactly that.
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Yes, and again thanks for making me feel nice having had to do exactly that.
I'm not responsible for how you feel about anything. If you're happy with the way you handled things then good for you. But this is about Jeremy and what he did - it's not about you.
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I'm not responsible for how you feel about anything. If you're happy with the way you handled things then good for you. But this is about Jeremy and what he did - it's not about you.
Thanks for letting me know - that it is not about me.
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Thanks for letting me know - that it is not about me.
You're welcome - always happy to help!! ;)
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And some would be good enough.
Do you know he didn´t keep some or give away - the good enough clothes?
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Anyway,what's getting rid of clothes got to do with murder ?
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Anyway,what's getting rid of clothes got to do with murder ?
What has Sheila's medical records got to do with murder? They aren't going to contain a confession.
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What has Sheila's medical records got to do with murder? They aren't going to contain a confession.
Maybe not a confession,but it would appear that they contain information that is relevant to her having committed the murders. We shall have to wait and see.
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Maybe not a confession,but it would appear that they contain information that is relevant to her having committed the murders. We shall have to wait and see.
I very much doubt that.
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I very much doubt that.
I don't.
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I don't.
I know you don't and I promise not to say 'I told you so' when it all leads to nothing.
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I know you don't and I promise not to say 'I told you so' when it all leads to nothing.
Not holding my breath. 8)
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I know you don't and I promise not to say 'I told you so' when it all leads to nothing.
Well I can't promise anything at the moment if it all goes tits up for you.
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Well I can't promise anything at the moment if it all goes tits up for you.
You might as well gloat now I guess, because if this submission ever makes it to the CCRC and it fails - given what they said last time, this really will be the last chance saloon.
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Maybe not a confession,but it would appear that they contain information that is relevant to her having committed the murders. We shall have to wait and see.
Sheilas medical records will be another waste of time for Bamber and Bamber supporters. They already have some, but have been given/discovered more. That doesn't change anything that happened on the night.
Old medical records don't change what Jeremy told JM and others. Old medcial records don't change the silencer evidence. Old medical records don't change that Jeremy had a discreet entrance and discreet exit from WHF. Old medical records don't change how much Jeremy has changed his story over the years - and is now claiming things for the first time.
All that it does is show Sheila was ill and had been ill in the months/years before the murders. But that was already known! That was Bambers ORIGINAL defence.
But none of it will matter, because I don't believe he will ever get another appeal.
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As I said,we'll have to wait and see.
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A young man in Australia was taken off his anti-psychotic medication because he told his GP that he felt the urge to kill-----------------went ahead and did just that. He killed a man, and has landed himself 40 years in prison. They don't muck about in Australia,except that even their GP's don't know everything,telling the young man to take fish-oil and meditate instead ! ::)
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A young man in Australia was taken off his anti-psychotic medication because he told his GP that he felt the urge to kill-----------------went ahead and did just that. He killed a man, and has landed himself 40 years in prison. They don't muck about in Australia,except that even their GP's don't know everything,telling the young man to take fish-oil and meditate instead ! ::)
Doesn´t he rather belong in a secure hospital setting?
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Doesn´t he rather belong in a secure hospital setting?
So far as I can see,the case is still ongoing,but he's been put behind bars all the same.
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The upshot of all this was that if the young man had received help,this may not have happened.
The young man was adopted,and he'd confided in his parents,GP,Psychiatrist and Psychologist,that he didn't " feel right ". That was when the GP removed his anti-psychotic medication.
Apparently,the man's father had asked " why the frig ( his words ) did the doctor take him off his medication when he'd said he felt like stabbing people ?"
The diagnosis was bi-polar disorder,which the man's father had said he was being over-medicated for as he appeared morose for most of the time.
Obviously in Australia they don't treat bi-polar as a disease of the mind.
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You might as well gloat now I guess, because if this submission ever makes it to the CCRC and it fails - given what they said last time, this really will be the last chance saloon.
Yes and that could take 8 years again . So I agree there is very little hope.
Only a tiny glimmer.