Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Adam on December 16, 2014, 08:27:PM
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Ann Eaton said the last time she saw Jeremy and Neville together, they had a blazing row.
Was this another final straw ? Together with Sheila rubbing his nose in it by cruising around WHF on a free holiday & Julie dismissing his 'tonight's the night' threat.
AE confirms that the two didn't get along. As lots of other people have said. Neville refusing to give him more responsibility saying Jeremy had 'no business sense'. So instead he lumbered him with 17 hour a day tractor tasks.
Sadly AE does not elaborate on the blazing row. But I bet Neville didn't turn his back in a hurry.
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Adam can I ask you what you are doing? Why are you making a thread about a comment? Not that you can't make a thread, but I don't see what you are trying to achieve or say....can you elaborate on what exactly this thread is about and what you expect to gain from it? It might help ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Sorry. I didn't put my usual question at the bottom.
Be interesting to see what people thought the blazing row was about. AE saying they nearly came to blows.
Another question would be what were the final five or six motivational incidents in the days prior to the massacre which made him go through with it.
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I know only of the " blazing row " on the night of the 7th between Sheila and her parents,concerning the futures of herself and the boys-------------such was Sheilas' future riddled with illness,poor soul.
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I have reported this thread as it is based entirely upon hearsay and therefore a completely useless if not inflamatory piece of derogatory gossip by someone with a financial interest in blackening the character or Jeremy Bamber. I therefore on those grounds put forward the motion that it be deleted forthwith.
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AE said Jeremy would try to antagonise and embarrass Neville in front of other people. He may have been worse in private.
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I have reported this thread as it is based entirely upon hearsay and therefore a completely useless if not inflamatory piece of derogatory gossip by someone with a financial interest in blackening the character or Jeremy Bamber. I therefore on those grounds put forward the motion that it be deleted forthwith.
It's in Ann Eaton's WS.
What do you think were the final things which lead to the horrific action ?
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AE said Jeremy would try to antagonise and embarrass Neville in front of other people. He may have been worse in private.
I have reported this post to the moderators in the hope that they will see through this persons deliberately inflammatory and unproven suggestions.
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I have reported this post to the moderators in the hope that they will see through this persons deliberately inflammatory and unproven suggestions.
I'll go along with that,Mr G. I've got a bad feeling about that " ".
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I'll go along with that,Mr G. I've got a bad feeling about that " troll ".
Lookout, he'll report you for calling him a troll :D I think this years Christmas game should be to see which one of us Adams reports most. The member who gets reported most could win the opportunity to say how long Adam's next ban should be ;D
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Lookout, he'll report you for calling him a troll :D I think this years Christmas game should be to see which one of us Adams reports most. The member who gets reported most could win the opportunity to say how long Adam's next ban should be ;D
He's getting on my wick.Big girls' blouse so bitter and twisted it doesn't make for a pleasant debate at all as he gets peoples' backs up all the time with his girlish threats of reporting just because he doesn't get his own way.
I like your idea though April. ;D ;D ;D
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Sorry. I didn't put my usual question at the bottom.
Be interesting to see what people thought the blazing row was about. AE saying they nearly came to blows.
Another question would be what were the final five or six motivational incidents in the days prior to the massacre which made him go through with it.
I know and thank you for that Adam.
How can we discuss a row when we do not know what the row was about Adam? People row day in day out...it does not mean that the row will turn into a murder.
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I know and thank you for that Adam.
How can we discuss a row when we do not know what the row was about Adam? People row day in day out...it does not mean that the row will turn into a murder.
Well people are allowed to speculate on a discussion forum.
Neville was brutally beaten and shot in the head and body several times shortly after this blazing row.
It was obviously about the business as it was in a business meeting. As BW said Neville knew about the caravan break in, so relationships were probably worse than usual.
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Well people are allowed to speculate on a discussion forum.
Neville was brutally beaten and shot in the head and body several times shortly after this blazing row.
It was obviously about the business as it was in a business meeting. As BW said Neville knew about the caravan break in, so relationships were probably worse than usual.
How come you are so ready to believe Ann Eaton about a "blazing row", yet you refuse point blank to believe Bamber when he spoke of there being a heated argument from Sheila that very night concerning the adoption of her children? Wny is Ann Eton believed but Jeremy Bamber is not?
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The only one screaming like a banshee would have been Sheila.The woman had " flipped " and was probably totally unaware of her physical actions.
June and Neville would not have been doing the shouting as in a" blazing row". They would have been more pre-occupied in Sheila herself who was flailing around with a rifle.
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How come you are so ready to believe Ann Eaton about a "blazing row", yet you refuse point blank to believe Bamber when he spoke of there being a heated argument from Sheila that very night concerning the adoption of her children? Wny is Ann Eton believed but Jeremy Bamber is not?
Well Jeremy said there was not a heated row.
There was apparently a suggestion of fostering. Sheila was non responsive.
The judge saying this alleged conversation cannot be used as a reason for her outburst later.
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Well Jeremy said there was not a heated row.
There was apparently a suggestion of fostering. Sheila was non responsive.
The judge saying this alleged conversation cannot be used as a reason for her outburst later.
And yet the judge did not count Ann Eaton's testimony as "alleged"? Fascinating.
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And yet the judge did not count Ann Eaton's testimony as "alleged"? Fascinating.
There is no record of the blazing row being discussed in court. It was not mentioned in the judges summing up.
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I know only of the " blazing row " on the night of the 7th between Sheila and her parents,concerning the futures of herself and the boys-------------such was Sheilas' future riddled with illness,poor soul.
Jeremy would have been correct in saying that there hadn't been a heated row. There didn't need to have been,but there was a scuffle as opposed to a struggle. Scuffle when referring to a female.
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I suspect Jeremy testified that Sheila was non responsive to support his claim that she went 'crazy' hours later. Anger building up inside her. Although the judge refuted this would happen.
If she went 'crazy' over supper, Neville, June & Jeremy could restrain and calm her down. Steps could then be taken to ensure Sheila is not a danger to herself or anyone else that night.
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I suspect Jeremy testified that Sheila was non responsive to support his claim that she went 'crazy' hours later. Anger building up inside her. Although the judge refuted this would happen.
If she went 'crazy' over supper, Neville, June & Jeremy could restrain and calm her down. Steps could then be taken to ensure Sheila is not a danger to herself or anyone else that night.
Hindsight is a wonderfull thing and there is a strong possibility that Sheila was already psychotic, a common sign of a forthcoming violent psychotic episode is lack of response to events around the person and withdrawal from their surroundings, so in fact if in that state, it's very possible Sheila wasn't even hearing the conversation but was lost in her own head. I don't believe anger per se had anything to do with Sheila's episode if it happened, her behaviour and appearance around that time has been reported as 'unusual' and she may have been struggling with an underlying psychosis for a long time before it finally came to a head.
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Hindsight is a wonderfull thing and there is a strong possibility that Sheila was already psychotic, a common sign of a forthcoming violent psychotic episode is lack of response to events around the person and withdrawal from their surroundings, so in fact if in that state, it's very possible Sheila wasn't even hearing the conversation but was lost in her own head. I don't believe anger per se had anything to do with Sheila's episode if it happened, her behaviour and appearance around that time has been reported as 'unusual' and she may have been struggling with an underlying psychosis for a long time before it finally came to a head.
Maggie I suspect that what we have here is yet another terrible case of the judge pre-empting the jury in favour of a guilty verdict that ends in a disgusting miscarriage of justice, where an innocent man is compelled to serve a life sentence just because of the fact that Sheila's illness was not thought to pose any danger either to herself or anyone else. Another case where cranky experts are taken at their word so as not to draw condemnation down upon themselves. And this of course attracts herds of silly bleating sheep agreeing with them in their pathetic ignorance.
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Maggie I suspect that what we have here is yet another terrible case of the judge pre-empting the jury in favour of a guilty verdict that ends in a disgusting miscarriage of justice, where an innocent man is compelled to serve a life sentence just because of the fact that Sheila's illness was not thought to pose any danger either to herself or anyone else. Another case where cranky experts are taken at their word so as not to draw condemnation down upon themselves. And this of course attracts herds of silly bleating sheep agreeing with them in their pathetic ignorance.
Good post Mr G. Well said.
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For Susan.
What do you think the blazing row could have been about ?
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How do you know that this was the LAST row?
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How do you know that this was the LAST row?
I don't, which is why I put a question mark.
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Adam maybe it was about bringing home the last trailer Jeremy may have wished Ralph to bring it home but Ralph would not be too pleased with that.
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Who would have been the last person to finish at the farm ? As I understand,Neville was going out checking something/someone after Jeremy had left ?
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Adam what a silky billy I am the row that AE is referring to cannot be the one I am thinking about as she was not at the farm that fateful night. Maybe Ralph thought Jeremy was not working hard enough.
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How do you know that this was the LAST row?
And what, exactly, and by whose definition, does "blazing" mean? It COULD mean that the story teller wishes to give the impression of something more than it was. One person's "Blaze" can equally well be an other's FLICKER.
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Who would have been the last person to finish at the farm ? As I understand,Neville was going out checking something/someone after Jeremy had left ?
Who would know that? But of course the question is interesting!!
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Who would know that? But of course the question is interesting!!
Jeremy would of course know.
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Jeremy would of course know.
How would he know if he wasn't there?
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How would he know if he wasn't there?
He would have known who he'd left behind in the fields,or ready to drive from the fields,before he left for home.
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He would have known who he'd left behind in the fields,or ready to drive from the fields,before he left for home.
Nope, Jeremy said his dad was in the house when he left, never mentioned him going for the trailer.
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He would have known who he'd left behind in the fields,or ready to drive from the fields,before he left for home.
But we can't know for certain that there was ANYONE in the fields. I don't believe anybody to have confirmed that they were there after Jeremy left and I don't think Jeremy has said his father was going out again.
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Nope, Jeremy said his dad was in the house when he left, never mentioned him going for the trailer.
I'm talking about someone still being in the fields finishing off. Jeremy wouldn't have been doing it on his own.
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But we can't know for certain that there was ANYONE in the fields. I don't believe anybody to have confirmed that they were there after Jeremy left and I don't think Jeremy has said his father was going out again.
Exactly April and we know he talked to BW quite late.
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I'm talking about someone still being in the fields finishing off. Jeremy wouldn't have been doing it on his own.
He was alone.
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This other farmworker was living/staying at the caravan site because on the morning of the murders he drove the trailer back to the farmhouse. I was just wondering what time he'd left the night before.
I've read this on here somewhere.
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Lookout sorry for being thick is this the same trailer that Jeremy said his Father brought back the night before. Confused.
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This other farmworker was living/staying at the caravan site because on the morning of the murders he drove the trailer back to the farmhouse. I was just wondering what time he'd left the night before.
I've read this on here somewhere.
I feel certain that, had Jeremy left anyone still working in the fields, he'd have said OR the farm workers would have said when they were questioned.
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No,Susan. This is one that a farmworker took home with him and brought back the next morning.
Home being the caravan site.
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This other farmworker was living/staying at the caravan site because on the morning of the murders he drove the trailer back to the farmhouse. I was just wondering what time he'd left the night before.
I've read this on here somewhere.
You mean this guy? http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1935.0.html
He wasn't working with Jeremy and he finished work at 8pm - the tractor/trailer he was using wasn't the same one. He didn't take any tractor/trailer back to WHF the following morning, he drove it back to the field in Goldhanger then went to WHF but was turned away. So the question still remains, who brought the tractor/trailer that Jeremy was using?
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Lookout sorry for being thick is this the same trailer that Jeremy said his Father brought back the night before. Confused.
Jeremy didn't actually say his father brought the trailer back Susan, he was pretty evasive about it but 'suggested' his father must have because it was there on the morning of the murders.
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You mean this guy? http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1935.0.html
He wasn't working with Jeremy and he finished work at 8pm - the tractor/trailer he was using wasn't the same one. He didn't take any tractor/trailer back to WHF the following morning, he drove it back to the field in Goldhanger then went to WHF but was turned away. So the question still remains, who brought the tractor/trailer that Jeremy was using?
Yes,that's the chap,Fraser-Bell.
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Caroline this is quite confusing who is the guy lookout said brought a trailer to the farm on the morning of the murders. I really cannot see Ralph bringing back the trailer he would have made Jeremy do it. Caroline you have just answered my question via lookout thank you.
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lookout thank you for that who are you going to ring?
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Fraser-Bell took the tractor back to WHF on the morning of the 7th of August at 07.45,saw the police there so went.
He'd taken the tractor to Goldhanger to do some work,and rather than go back to WHF,he went straight home to where he was staying at the caravan site.
What the difference in distance is between Goldhanger and the caravan site x the distance from WHF to the caravan site is,I don't know.
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Fraser-Bell took the tractor back to WHF on the morning of the 7th of August at 07.45,saw the police there so went.
He'd taken the tractor to Goldhanger to do some work,and rather than go back to WHF,he went straight home to where he was staying at the caravan site.
What the difference in distance is between Goldhanger and the caravan site x the distance from WHF to the caravan site is,I don't know.
I would say equidistant..........ish :D but the caravan park is on the same road as Goldhanger so access would be easier.
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I would say equidistant..........ish :D but the caravan park is on the same road as Goldhanger so access would be easier.
Thanks April. So being as it's as broad as it's long,I wonder why FB didn't take the tractor/trailer back to WHF from Goldhanger on the night of the 6th ?
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Thanks April. So being as it's as broad as it's long,I wonder why FB didn't take the tractor/trailer back to WHF from Goldhanger on the night of the 6th ?
Lookout, PLEASE don'r quote me, but I have a feeling that the Bamber field furthest away from WHF practically abuts the back road to Goldhanger, very close to the main road. OR he didn't want to get caught by the boss and asked to do another job before he knocked off.
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Fraser-Bell took the tractor back to WHF on the morning of the 7th of August at 07.45,saw the police there so went.
He'd taken the tractor to Goldhanger to do some work,and rather than go back to WHF,he went straight home to where he was staying at the caravan site.
What the difference in distance is between Goldhanger and the caravan site x the distance from WHF to the caravan site is,I don't know.
No, he took the tractor to Goldhanger and THEN went to WHF.
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AFB only worked at WHF for 2 months. In his statement he was said to be living at Cirencester Agri.College,yet his home was Osea caravan park.
Jimmyy Bell was the one who'd threatened June and Neville by throwing bullets at the car,saying next time they'll be in the .22 rifle he was holding,complete with moderator.
This threat was because of a 6 month prison sentence that Neville had served on him for abusing his wife.
Something doesn't sit right with this lot. Even the locals blamed Jimmy Bell for the WHF murders. He was a very violent man.
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Caroline this is quite confusing who is the guy lookout said brought a trailer to the farm on the morning of the murders. I really cannot see Ralph bringing back the trailer he would have made Jeremy do it. Caroline you have just answered my question via lookout thank you.
Lookout thought that Frasier Bell too it back to WHF, but he didn't, he took the tractor he was using to Goldhanger. It's a different tractor to the one Jeremy was using but someone brought the trailer that Jeremy said he left in the field - so who did?
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AFB only worked at WHF for 2 months. In his statement he was said to be living at Cirencester Agri.College,yet his home was Osea caravan park.
Jimmyy Bell was the one who'd threatened June and Neville by throwing bullets at the car,saying next time they'll be in the .22 rifle he was holding,complete with moderator.
This threat was because of a 6 month prison sentence that Neville had served on him for abusing his wife.
Something doesn't sit right with this lot. Even the locals blamed Jimmy Bell for the WHF murders. He was a very violent man.
This isn't Jimmy Bell, it's Fraser Bell.
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Lookout, it seems from that, that the movements of all farm workers, full time and casual, have been accounted for.
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Lookout thought that Frasier Bell too it back to WHF, but he didn't, he took the tractor he was using to Goldhanger. It's a different tractor to the one Jeremy was using but someone brought the trailer that Jeremy said he left in the field - so who did?
As I said,Caroline,something isn't right here and my brain's got knots in it trying to work it out.
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His address is given as Cirencester because he was a full-time student when he gave a statement - he would only have been about 19 or 20 years of age at the time.
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As I said,Caroline,something isn't right here and my brain's got knots in it trying to work it out.
Not sure why you're confused Lookout. Alan Russell 'Fraser-Bell' is no relation to Jimmy 'Bell' - 'Fraser-Bell' is his surname not 'Bell'. He worked with someone called 'Alf' in a field at Goldhanger until 8pm, then drove the tractor home. He wasn't working with Jeremy and he didn't bring back the trailer that Jeremy was using - but someone did.
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AFB only worked at WHF for 2 months. In his statement he was said to be living at Cirencester Agri.College,yet his home was Osea caravan park.
Jimmyy Bell was the one who'd threatened June and Neville by throwing bullets at the car,saying next time they'll be in the .22 rifle he was holding,complete with moderator.
This threat was because of a 6 month prison sentence that Neville had served on him for abusing his wife.
Something doesn't sit right with this lot. Even the locals blamed Jimmy Bell for the WHF murders. He was a very violent man.
I think he was probably also a dead one before the murders, Lookout. Can I also add that Jimmy's case was too serious for Neville's remit and I believe Jimmy was sentenced at Crown Court.
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Ah,now I get it. Jimmy Bell, without the double-barrel hyphernated name was the guy that Neville sent down.
Was he also the one who was found by June,with Sheila,in the field ?
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Ah,now I get it. Jimmy Bell, without the double-barrel hyphernated name was the guy that Neville sent down.
Was he also the one who was found by June,with Sheila,in the field ?
NO, Lookout. We have discussed this before. Neville probably wasn't responsible for sending JB to prison as the crime was too serious for a magistrate's court and it would have been referred to Crown Court. The probable reason for Jimmy being angry with Neville and June was that he believed his wife had disclosed their marital problems to June.
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you will have to check these two things with Mike - but apparently Jeremy was heard driving away from the farm at 9.30 ISH.
Also I found this
A distant relative of Ralph Bamber, a man by the name of Ralph Neville, was working at whf at the time of the shootings, and he was staying at the caravan park, owned by the Boutflours, and the Eatons, Neville lived in South Africa...
On the night of the shootings, his motor car was found parked up in the driveway of whf...
The reason his car was found there, was because Ralph Neville had been working late in the fields on the evening before the shootings, and he had taken the tractor and trailer, he had been working on, in the fields, back to his digs at Osea road caravan park...
Police were trying to link the hitchhiker statement to him...
What is odd about this though, is that Essex police allowed Neville to collect his car from the drive at whf, later that morning (7th), and as far as is known, by the beginning of September 1985, he had returned to live back in South Africa - why would he be hitchhiking on the morning of the shootings, if the police had given him his car back?
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you will have to check these two things with Mike - but apparently Jeremy was heard driving away from the farm at 9.30 ISH.
Also I found this
A distant relative of Ralph Bamber, a man by the name of Ralph Neville, was working at whf at the time of the shootings, and he was staying at the caravan park, owned by the Boutflours, and the Eatons, Neville lived in South Africa...
On the night of the shootings, his motor car was found parked up in the driveway of whf...
The reason his car was found there, was because Ralph Neville had been working late in the fields on the evening before the shootings, and he had taken the tractor and trailer, he had been working on, in the fields, back to his digs at Osea road caravan park...
Police were trying to link the hitchhiker statement to him...
What is odd about this though, is that Essex police allowed Neville to collect his car from the drive at whf, later that morning (7th), and as far as is known, by the beginning of September 1985, he had returned to live back in South Africa - why would he be hitchhiking on the morning of the shootings, if the police had given him his car back?
The car belonged to Mr Faiser-Bell he says so in his statement - he left his car at WHF and drove the tractor home - home being one of the caravans. The rather mysterious Mr Ralf Neville sounds like a dead ringer for Mr Faiser-Bell. Someone seems to have got things confused.
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The car belonged to Mr Faiser-Bell he says so in his statement - he left his car at WHF and drove the tractor home - home being one of the caravans. The rather mysterious Mr Ralf Neville sounds like a dead ringer for Mr Faiser-Bell. Someone seems to have got things confused.
Did someone hear him driving away fro the farm?
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Did someone hear him driving away fro the farm?
He returned the following day to pick it up but was stopped by police and had to turn back. I guess he picked it up when he was allowed to.
This is his statement http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1935.0.html
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you will have to check these two things with Mike - but apparently Jeremy was heard driving away from the farm at 9.30 ISH.
Also I found this
A distant relative of Ralph Bamber, a man by the name of Ralph Neville, was working at whf at the time of the shootings, and he was staying at the caravan park, owned by the Boutflours, and the Eatons, Neville lived in South Africa...
On the night of the shootings, his motor car was found parked up in the driveway of whf...
The reason his car was found there, was because Ralph Neville had been working late in the fields on the evening before the shootings, and he had taken the tractor and trailer, he had been working on, in the fields, back to his digs at Osea road caravan park...
Police were trying to link the hitchhiker statement to him...
What is odd about this though, is that Essex police allowed Neville to collect his car from the drive at whf, later that morning (7th), and as far as is known, by the beginning of September 1985, he had returned to live back in South Africa - why would he be hitchhiking on the morning of the shootings, if the police had given him his car back?
This is exactly the confusion I had last night involving a farm worker. So it WASN'T AFB I was referring to--------------it was this guy,Ralph Neville.
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I don't think it is clear because the hitch hiker was never identified? There were clues in his statement but I don't think he was ever traced.
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Do we know what time he left the farm that night ? Or am I further confused ? There was so much coming and going at that particular time. Also because both Ralph Neville and AFB had connections with South Africa.
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I think that some assumptions may have been made because it is not clear from the statement that the hitch hiker worked on the farm
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Again,Jeremy could have the answer to that one as well.
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What was Jeremy's usual time to start work?
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forgot attachments
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Mr Gee Happy New Year. I think Jeremy started work at 8 a.m.
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Assuming the hitchhiker had a return air ticket ? Because his funds appeared pretty limited. Thumbing lifts doesn't sound like someone who could afford another 2 week stay ?
The description was almost like Brett Collins,even down to the accent,as Oz,South African and also New Zealand,sound pretty similar.
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Ralph Neville had been working late in the fields on the night of the murders.How late I wonder ?
He'd taken the tractor and trailer to where he was staying at Osea caravan park.? Why,when he had a car which was parked at WHF ? Then he dropped off the tractor and trailer next morning,with the police allowing him to pick up his car ?
If this was the hitchhiker who Mr Chalmers picked up,why thumb a lift if you'd collected your car from WHF ? Ralph Neville returned to South Africa the following month after the murders.
Do we know anthing about this guy,or the purpose of his visit,and which farmhouse he stayed at while working at WHF ?
Saying that,I've had a bloody awful thought. :o
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This is exactly the confusion I had last night involving a farm worker. So it WASN'T AFB I was referring to--------------it was this guy,Ralph Neville.
No, there is no 'Ralf Neville' - unless they were using WHF as a car park ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D. It's obvious that the story relates to the same person and he made a statement and his name was Fraser-Bell.
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Ralph Neville had been working late in the fields on the night of the murders.How late I wonder ?
He'd taken the tractor and trailer to where he was staying at Osea caravan park.? Why,when he had a car which was parked at WHF ? Then he dropped off the tractor and trailer next morning,with the police allowing him to pick up his car ?
If this was the hitchhiker who Mr Chalmers picked up,why thumb a lift if you'd collected your car from WHF ? Ralph Neville returned to South Africa the following month after the murders.
Do we know anthing about this guy,or the purpose of his visit,and which farmhouse he stayed at while working at WHF ?
Saying that,I've had a bloody awful thought. :o
I give up ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Where is the official account that this Ralf Neville existed and that he left his car at WHF and took a tractor back to the caravan park? It seems the caravan park was full of tractors that night ;D ;D ;D ;D. Come on Lookout, you MUST realise that RN and FB are the SAME person? ;D ;D ;D
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FB was a millionaire not a hitchhiker. Ralph Neville was a distant relative of Neville Bambers'.
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FB was a millionaire not a hitchhiker. Ralph Neville was a distant relative of Neville Bambers'.
I wasn't aware that FB was a millionaire. Jimmy B was reputed to be -on the local grapevine- but was close enough to penury that he had to sell his crop BEFORE it was harvested and couldn't have been said to OWN anything. It was all leased.
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Lookout I read a guy had been staying at the farm but June put him on his way because he had drugs he left the area on the morning of the murders and did hitch back to France now is name I do not know of indeed if this story is true or a myth :'(
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Not sure about that one Susan,only about the young relative who June was looking after to try and wean him off drugs,but that was well before the murders I think.June had actually volunteered to have him at WHF,so obviously not the same guy.
As I mentioned,there were so man comings and goings ( of course to be expected as it was a business ) but a flying visit from one of Nevilles' relatives was seemingly odd.
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lookout that is the guy I am talking about I thought he left the farm just before the murders and some thought he was in on the murders :'(
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Seems like another student,Susan. One who Jeremy had got to know by working on the farm. There was an argument over women or drink and he ended up staying at the caravan park.
There were two South Africans if you include Ralph Neville,along with this student. Gets worse. ;D ;D ;D
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Obviously the student must have been Fraser-Bell.
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You've got to admit,it does get confusing. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Not sure about that one Susan,only about the young relative who June was looking after to try and wean him off drugs,but that was well before the murders I think.June had actually volunteered to have him at WHF,so obviously not the same guy.
As I mentioned,there were so man comings and goings ( of course to be expected as it was a business ) but a flying visit from one of Nevilles' relatives was seemingly odd.
I believe the young male relative to have been a Pargeter nephew to Neville.
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Ralph Neville was staying in a campervan on the farm at the time of the murders. Apparently he came away from South Africa on account of the violence there. This guy also had a companion ?
It was Fraser-Bell who was staying at WHF,until he had some trouble with a woman,it seems,then toddled off to the caravan site. RWB snr was a tutor at the agri college where FB attended.
We'll get there in the end. ;D ;D Just separating the wheat from the chaff first.
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lookout think it is easier to stay confused :'(
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Ralph Neville was staying in a campervan on the farm at the time of the murders. Apparently he came away from South Africa on account of the violence there. This guy also had a companion ?
It was Fraser-Bell who was staying at WHF,until he had some trouble with a woman,it seems,then toddled off to the caravan site. RWB snr was a tutor at the agri college where FB attended.
We'll get there in the end. ;D ;D Just separating the wheat from the chaff first.
If you can find me an 'official' document (not forum hearsay) to back-up this claim I will eat my hat!! ;D ;D ;D. Don't you think if there was someone living in a camper van at WHF, they would have been interviewed? I think there's quite a lot of 'chaff' still left!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Ralph Neville was staying in a campervan on the farm at the time of the murders. Apparently he came away from South Africa on account of the violence there. This guy also had a companion ?
It was Fraser-Bell who was staying at WHF,until he had some trouble with a woman,it seems,then toddled off to the caravan site. RWB snr was a tutor at the agri college where FB attended.
We'll get there in the end. ;D ;D Just separating the wheat from the chaff first.
Somewhere on the forum the is the scurrilous suggestion that a casual farm worker attempted to have sexual relations with Sheila in the days prior to her death. These "tit bits" seem to grow out of nowhere, don't they? To my knowledge, NO ONE questioned has admitted to it and there is nothing recorded about Sheila mentioning it to anyone, so HOW do we know it happened.
It seems there is now a contingent of Fraser Bell, Jimmy Bell, Ralph Neville ET AL that have been thrown into the mix. Easy enough, perhaps, to get the Bells confused although they were WIDELY separated by age, lifestyle and position , but Ralph Neville, Neville Bamber's relative and NAMESAKE!!! Does it not seem odd that a relative bearing his father's name would be SO little known to Jeremy that he's never mentioned his presence? Does it not seem equally odd that, as a namesake relative, all the way from South Africa, he didn't share any meals with the Bambers and neither June nor Neville thought to mention him to Jeremy?
I believe RWB snr to have been Dean of Cirencester and author of a probably little read book on farming. As his son, RWB jnr was Neville Bamber's senior by some years and Neville was over 60, I suspect it highly unlikely that RWB snr was still at Cirencester at the time FB was a student.................although I grant, it's very difficult to shift some of these old boys when they're in situ.
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Somewhere on the forum the is the scurrilous suggestion that a casual farm worker attempted to have sexual relations with Sheila in the days prior to her death. These "tit bits" seem to grow out of nowhere, don't they? To my knowledge, NO ONE questioned has admitted to it and there is nothing recorded about Sheila mentioning it to anyone, so HOW do we know it happened.
It seems there is now a contingent of Fraser Bell, Jimmy Bell, Ralph Neville ET AL that have been thrown into the mix. Easy enough, perhaps, to get the Bells confused although they were WIDELY separated by age, lifestyle and position , but Ralph Neville, Neville Bamber's relative and NAMESAKE!!! Does it not seem odd that a relative bearing his father's name would be SO little known to Jeremy that he's never mentioned his presence? Does it not seem equally odd that, as a namesake relative, all the way from South Africa, he didn't share any meals with the Bambers and neither June nor Neville thought to mention him to Jeremy?
I believe RWB snr to have been Dean of Cirencester and author of a probably little read book on farming. As his son, RWB jnr was Neville Bamber's senior by some years and Neville was over 60, I suspect it highly unlikely that RWB snr was still at Cirencester at the time FB was a student.................although I grant, it's very difficult to shift some of these old boys when they're in situ.
Don't you think it's also odd that the story of RN matches exactly with the statement of FB? ;D ;D ;D
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Don't you think it's also odd that the story of RN matches exactly with the statement of FB? ;D ;D ;D
Sounds to me as if someone got confused before we did ;D ;D ;D
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\when you read the hitch hikers account it does not say he even worked at WHF . He must have been pretty close to bump into the reporter on his way though.
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Ralph Neville was staying in a campervan on the farm at the time of the murders. Apparently he came away from South Africa on account of the violence there. This guy also had a companion ?
It was Fraser-Bell who was staying at WHF,until he had some trouble with a woman,it seems,then toddled off to the caravan site. RWB snr was a tutor at the agri college where FB attended.
We'll get there in the end. ;D ;D Just separating the wheat from the chaff first.
OK, the mysterious 'Ralf Nevill' has been unmasked by HG on the red forum. His name is Christopher Neville, not Ralf and the only time he stayed in a camper van was 'after' the murders on 10th August with Peter Eaton to make sure no one broke into the empty farmhouse. He didn't drive a tractor on the night of the murders, nor did he leave his car at WHF - that was Fraser Bell, who left work at 8pm, drove the tractor home leaving his car at WHF.
So the question still remains - who brought the last trailer back to the farm late on the night of the murders?
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\when you read the hitch hikers account it does not say he even worked at WHF . He must have been pretty close to bump into the reporter on his way though.
Where is the Hitchhiker's account?
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Where is the Hitchhiker's account?
sorry the account from the hitchhiker by the man who gave him the lift - on this thread - gosh must not muddle my sources ;D
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this might help
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this might help
Sorry Jan, I'm confused now ;D. That was Fraser Bell's statement which I posted a link to yesterday. He was the farm hand who left his car at WHF and drove the tractor home. I wanted to know if there is any official documents in respect to the hitchhiker?
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post 73 - from the guy who picked him up.
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EP were apparently trying to link Ralph/Christophers' statement to the hitchhiker. ( see how quick EP are ? ) punch first,ask later ? Lokk where being over-zealous got them. ::)
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OK, the mysterious 'Ralf Nevill' has been unmasked by HG on the red forum. His name is Christopher Neville, not Ralf and the only time he stayed in a camper van was 'after' the murders on 10th August with Peter Eaton to make sure no one broke into the empty farmhouse. He didn't drive a tractor on the night of the murders, nor did he leave his car at WHF - that was Fraser Bell, who left work at 8pm, drove the tractor home leaving his car at WHF.
So the question still remains - who brought the last trailer back to the farm late on the night of the murders?
Apparently a post from Tyler says this
"
It is stated in the Dickenson Report that Nevill collected the last trailer of rape at 10.30pm,so for him to state that,somebody must have witnessed it?
Also it was said in another post that NB was working late in the fields.
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I wonder if anyone was watching him and followed him inside the farmhouse ?
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I wonder if anyone was watching him and followed him inside the farmhouse ?
Who would slaughter an entire family, make it look as if one of them had committed suicide and walk away empty handed? Also it fails to explain Neville's alleged call to Jeremy.
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I wonder if anyone was watching him and followed him inside the farmhouse ?
I know it! A FOX! It sneaked into the house on the heels of Nevill, darted upstairs and hid under the bed!
I am being naughty and nothing can stop me! ;D
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I know it! A FOX! It sneaked into the house on the heels of Nevill, darted upstairs and hid under the bed!
I am being naughty and nothing can stop me! ;D
No naughtier than some and probably less so than others, Alias :D
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Alias a fox barks like a dog ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Alias a fox barks like a dog ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Foxes are smart. BTW, the only mammel who was already in Iceland when people started to inhabit the island were foxes. No idea how they got there!
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The vixens scream like a woman being strangled.It's a terrible haunting noise.
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Should I stop talking about foxes? :P
They came to Iceland at the end of the last Ice Age, presumably on ice flakes. They were there and had it all to themselves for 9000 years. WHAT a bummer when people invaded the place about a 1000 years ago!!!
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Apparently a post from Tyler says this
"
It is stated in the Dickenson Report that Nevill collected the last trailer of rape at 10.30pm,so for him to state that,somebody must have witnessed it?
Also it was said in another post that NB was working late in the fields.
Or Jeremy said it. Nevill hadn't worked in the field all night, I can't see him heading up to the fields after 10:00pm
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Alias the fox is a magnificent animal and this is why I am so passionately against Fox Hunting it is a disgrace that human beings can be so cruel :'(
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I love wolves too.
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it is in the Dickinson report - but as Jeremy was heard going home at 9.30 he may not have known his father was going back out .I guess there must be another witness somewhere.
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it is in the Dickinson report - but as Jeremy was heard going home at 9.30 he may not have known his father was going back out .I guess there must be another witness somewhere.
Yes, I know Jeremy took his car back at 09:30pm. It was heard leaving WHF by a witness in the cottages. I imagine the same witness heard the tractor coming back and as they had heard Jeremy leave, they assumed Nevill brought the tractor back. But did he? I just find it VERY odd that when Jones asked him if the tractor had a canopy on it, he replied "No comment". It is after all (on the face of it) a benign question and he didn't answer it until he knew why it was being asked - after that, he had no problem with it. What if he thought someone had seen him driving the tractor later than he indicated? That would make him VERY nervous of the question.
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Yes, I know Jeremy took his car back at 09:30pm. It was heard leaving WHF by a witness in the cottages. I imagine the same witness heard the tractor coming back and as they had heard Jeremy leave, they assumed Nevill brought the tractor back. But did he? I just find it VERY odd that when Jones asked him if the tractor had a canopy on it, he replied "No comment". It is after all (on the face of it) a benign question and he didn't answer it until he knew why it was being asked - after that, he had no problem with it. What if he thought someone had seen him driving the tractor later than he indicated? That would make him VERY nervous of the question.
Yes I thought that was strange. Jeremy was not known for doing overtime,not that I blame him for that. I thought initially he was still debating in his head whether or not the twins had to die,in which case Sheila would have to be kept away from their bedroom before he led her to her death.
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Yes I thought that was strange. Jeremy was not known for doing overtime,not that I blame him for that. I thought initially he was still debating in his head whether or not the twins had to die,in which case Sheila would have to be kept away from their bedroom before he led her to her death.
When Jones asked about the canopy, perhaps Jeremy thought someone had seen him driving it back to he farm and didn't want to commit an answer until he knew what exactly was being asked?
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When Jones asked about the canopy, perhaps Jeremy thought someone had seen him driving it back to he farm and didn't want to commit an answer until he knew what exactly was being asked?
Do you mean a removable canopy?
Most tractors would have a canopy or cab to protect from the sun ? I am not sure where you are going with this ?
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When Jones asked about the canopy, perhaps Jeremy thought someone had seen him driving it back to he farm and didn't want to commit an answer until he knew what exactly was being asked?
I can see from your old posts that Julie told jones that the new tractor had a canopy - well if Jeremy was seen driving an old tractor then I am sure they would have followed up.
As you yourself said before he was probably fed up with their inane questioning.
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I can see from your old posts that Julie told jones that the new tractor had a canopy - well if Jeremy was seen driving an old tractor then I am sure they would have followed up.
As you yourself said before he was probably fed up with their inane questioning.
That's not what I meant Jan. I meant IF he brought the tractor back at 10:30(ish), he wouldn't want it known. When asked about it, he didn't want to answer and it may be because he didn't know if he'd been seen - ie. the tenants at the cottages might have identified him as the driver so he wanted to be sure why the question was being asked. When he found out it was just something Julie mentioned, he answered with no problems. Whether the tractor was old or new isn't the issue, it's what he thought he was being asked.
I can see why he didn't answer 'some' questions because Jones kept repeating things, however, the tractor question is different, it was benign on the surface, even Jones was surprised when he said 'no comment'.
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Do you mean a removable canopy?
Most tractors would have a canopy or cab to protect from the sun ? I am not sure where you are going with this ?
What was in Jeremy's mind as he tilled and harrowed that light gravelly soil,the canopy shielding him from the excesses of the midday sun and joggling gently in the breeze from the sea as backdrop..as Nicholas and Daniel stepped up to the machine and manoeuvred the gears it was Jeremy who remained firmly in control as he debated Julie's plea to spare the twins,at this point in his deliberations still unsure as to which course to take,unlike the monotonous regularity of the tractor,which always followed a familiar path,yet he determined ultimately that all should die,not out of any intrinsic emotion but from purely practical considerations as he looked back at the Farm in the distance and planned the slaughter down to the last detail..
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What was in Jeremy's mind as he tilled and harrowed that light gravelly soil,the canopy shielding him from the excesses of the midday sun and joggling gently in the breeze from the sea as backdrop..as Nicholas and Daniel stepped up to the machine and manoeuvred the gears it was Jeremy who remained firmly in control as he debated Julie's plea to spare the twins,at this point in his deliberations still unsure as to which course to take,unlike the monotonous regularity of the tractor,which always followed a familiar path,yet he determined ultimately that all should die,not out of any intrinsic emotion but from purely practical considerations as he looked back at the Farm in the distance and planned the slaughter down to the last detail..
Steve, if you are saying that Julie pleaded with him to spare the twins, there can be no doubt that she knew categorically what was his plan. Might a desire to distance herself from it have been why she returned to London when she did?
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What was in Jeremy's mind as he tilled and harrowed that light gravelly soil,the canopy shielding him from the excesses of the midday sun and joggling gently in the breeze from the sea as backdrop..as Nicholas and Daniel stepped up to the machine and manoeuvred the gears it was Jeremy who remained firmly in control as he debated Julie's plea to spare the twins,at this point in his deliberations still unsure as to which course to take,unlike the monotonous regularity of the tractor,which always followed a familiar path,yet he determined ultimately that all should die,not out of any intrinsic emotion but from purely practical considerations as he looked back at the Farm in the distance and planned the slaughter down to the last detail..
Where do you have that from?
And aren´t you actually (can hardly believe my eyes!) admitting that Julie was in on the whole thing?
P.S. how can you then defend her? I am puzzled - not mildly, but very!
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What was in Jeremy's mind as he tilled and harrowed that light gravelly soil,the canopy shielding him from the excesses of the midday sun and joggling gently in the breeze from the sea as backdrop..as Nicholas and Daniel stepped up to the machine and manoeuvred the gears it was Jeremy who remained firmly in control as he debated Julie's plea to spare the twins,at this point in his deliberations still unsure as to which course to take,unlike the monotonous regularity of the tractor,which always followed a familiar path,yet he determined ultimately that all should die,not out of any intrinsic emotion but from purely practical considerations as he looked back at the Farm in the distance and planned the slaughter down to the last detail..
..nothing more Jeremy liked by nature than to follow a crowd and be part of it,yet to stand apart when he so chose,and for a time associating with Sheila had been fun,but those days were now long in the past as he considered his next move and how others would react..
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I'm afraid it's contained within Julie's statement that she wondered out loud about the slaughter of Sheila,Nicholas and Daniel,whilst seemingly Nevill and June were written off. Might Jeremy have been thinking how Julie would respond to the massacre alongside cousin Ann,whom he would henceforth have to cooperate in the caravan park business,he already having made one attempt to keep the latter onside by the purchase and sending of a card on the occasion of her latest birthday.
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Steve, if you are saying that Julie pleaded with him to spare the twins, there can be no doubt that she knew categorically what was his plan. Might a desire to distance herself from it have been why she returned to London when she did?
It was fortuitous for her yes,but there was no alibi for Jeremy on the Tuesday evening as she could well have provided for him had they been co-conspirators as some suggest,neither did Jeremy consider Julie's wishes about sparing Sheila and the twins,which he might have done had he been totally under her spell.
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..nothing more Jeremy liked by nature than to follow a crowd and be part of it,yet to stand apart when he so chose,and for a time associating with Sheila had been fun,but those days were now long in the past as he considered his next move and how others would react..
Steve, it is said that adopted children always stand apart from a crowd. If this IS so, Jeremy would have had no choice and it would have been MORE likely that he stood on the edge longing to be part of something he couldn't be part of.
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It was fortuitous for her yes,but there was no alibi for Jeremy on the Tuesday evening as she could well have provided for him had they been co-conspirators as some suggest,neither did Jeremy consider Julie's wishes about sparing Sheila and the twins,which Jeremy might have done had he been totally under her spell.
You're misunderstanding what I'm saying, Steve. In order for Julie to plead for the lives of Sheila and the twins she HAD to have known FULLY what he was planning. IMO, at this point, there is NO question of him being "under her spell." In fact HE said the relationship was in decline but I suspect Julie wasn't aware of it and was still hoping for marriage when he'd removed all obstacles preventing it.
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Steve, it is said that adopted children always stand apart from a crowd. If this IS so, Jeremy would have had no choice and it would have been MORE likely that he stood on the edge longing to be part of something he couldn't be part of.
I think that is so April and didn't he so want to belong to a group at Gresham's,yet the boys found a weakness and played on it relentlessly,as Jeremy reluctantly fell back on his own meagre resources. How things might have been different had he been invited along on the exotic foreign holidays of his school contemporaries,which Jeremy made up for as soon as he was able with foreign jaunts of his own,yet still feeling inside vulnerable and inferior to the East Anglian landed gentry,who mocked and shunned him as a product of a tenant farmer tied to a board of trustees,whilst they lorded over everything and everyone with the immediate wherewithal to fulfil their most intimate desires.
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That's not what I meant Jan. I meant IF he brought the tractor back at 10:30(ish), he wouldn't want it known. When asked about it, he didn't want to answer and it may be because he didn't know if he'd been seen - ie. the tenants at the cottages might have identified him as the driver so he wanted to be sure why the question was being asked. When he found out it was just something Julie mentioned, he answered with no problems. Whether the tractor was old or new isn't the issue, it's what he thought he was being asked.
I can see why he didn't answer 'some' questions because Jones kept repeating things, however, the tractor question is different, it was benign on the surface, even Jones was surprised when he said 'no comment'.
It could be relevant if there were some tractors with canopies and others without? and if no one else saw NB doing the last shift .I guess we have not seen a lot of those original statements from those in the know . i.e the persons involved in working on that night .
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You're misunderstanding what I'm saying, Steve. In order for Julie to plead for the lives of Sheila and the twins she HAD to have known FULLY what he was planning. IMO, at this point, there is NO question of him being "under her spell." In fact HE said the relationship was in decline but I suspect Julie wasn't aware of it and was still hoping for marriage when he'd removed all obstacles preventing it.
But she thought he wouldn't execute his plan and told him to refrain from speaking about it. In a way the making up of a hitman story was his own attempt to spare her feelings and shows a modicum of respect for her.
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It could be relevant if there were some tractors with canopies and others without? and if no one else saw NB doing the last shift .I guess we have not seen a lot of those original statements from those in the know . i.e the persons involved in working on that night .
The one he was using had a canopy.
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But she thought he wouldn't execute his plan and told him to refrain from speaking about it. In a way the making up of a hitman story was his own attempt to spare her feelings and shows a modicum of respect for her.
If she thought he wasn't going to 'execute' the plan, why did she feel the need to plead for the lives of the twins and Sheila?
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If she thought he wasn't going to 'execute' the plan, why did she feel the need to plead for the lives of the twins and Sheila?
Yes, that - and she accepted that June and Nevill were "written off". Steve, you are revealing here that you think that Julie was in on it.
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I think that is so April and didn't he so want to belong to a group at Gresham's,yet the boys found a weakness and played on it relentlessly,as Jeremy reluctantly fell back on his own meagre resources. How things might have been different had he been invited along on the exotic foreign holidays of his school contemporaries,which Jeremy made up for as soon as he was able with foreign jaunts of his own,yet still feeling inside vulnerable and inferior to the East Anglian landed gentry,who mocked and shunned him as a product of a tenant farmer tied to a board of trustees,whilst they lorded over everything and everyone with the immediate wherewithal to fulfil their most intimate desires.
Yes Steve, I think that's very much how it was for him. I'm not entirely convinced, that in actuality, it was as bad as you paint it but it's about how Jeremy may have experienced it as being. Every individual child would have had their own set of problems to deal with which is a part of what sets one against the other.
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Yes, that - and she accepted that June and Nevill were "written off". Steve, you are revealing here that you think that Julie was in on it.
No this was long before the execution,occuring around Christmas time 1984 when Jeremy's original plan was to burn down the Farm and present Robert Boutflour with a fait accompli as he came round for his Boxing Day afternoon sherry. I don't think Julie ever contributed to Jeremy's deliberations after that,apart from listening to him wearily after her day as a teacher,more out of politeness than acquiescence. What little more we can glean pre-murders is condensed from many months in his company and are only snippets such as the rat strangling which neither prove nor disprove Jeremy's guilt.
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Yes, that - and she accepted that June and Nevill were "written off". Steve, you are revealing here that you think that Julie was in on it.
Actually, in her saying that, she's kind of admitting it?
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Yes Steve, I think that's very much how it was for him. I'm not entirely convinced, that in actuality, it was as bad as you paint it but it's about how Jeremy may have experienced it as being. Every individual child would have had their own set of problems to deal with which is a part of what sets one against the other.
He did say that it was harder to be at this boarding school than settling into jail life.
I have heard from others that boarding school life was torture. I hope there is more focus on protection of those poor kids these days!
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But she thought he wouldn't execute his plan and told him to refrain from speaking about it. In a way the making up of a hitman story was his own attempt to spare her feelings and shows a modicum of respect for her.
Steve, believing "he wouldn't execute his plan" really doesn't exonerate her. It wasn't about any thoughts or decisions she may have made about "his plans" it was about her KNOWING what those plans were. The hitman story was probably about him believing that if she told such a stupid and contrived story, she'd lose all credibility.
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Or there was a hitman - a helper. ;)
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Steve, believing "he wouldn't execute his plan" really doesn't exonerate her. It wasn't about any thoughts or decisions she may have made about "his plans" it was about her KNOWING what those plans were. The hitman story was probably about him believing that if she told such a stupid and contrived story, she'd lose all credibility.
But in his mind the Matthew MacDonald story was telling white lies. Had Jeremy ever lied to Julie during the two years or so they had been together? How did Julie know what Jeremy's plans were if she thought there was a possibility they would marry,or was Jeremy postponing the marriage because the idea came from June just another example of Jeremy's duplicitousness?
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Or there was a hitman - a helper. ;)
It's more than a tad altruistic to serve a life sentence on ones own if someone else should be serving a similar, don't you think.
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It's more than a tad altruistic to serve a life sentence on ones own if someone else should be serving a similar, don't you think.
Not if you maintain your innocense and hope to get out of jail - which Jeremy does to this day.
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But in his mind the Matthew MacDonald story was telling white lies. Had Jeremy ever lied to Julie during the two years or so they had been together? How did Julie know what Jeremy's plans were if she thought there was a possibility they would marry,or was Jeremy postponing the marriage because the idea came from June just another example of Jeremy's duplicitousness?
I don't supposed he offered up the info that he slept with Liz Rimmington!! ;D
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I don't supposed he offered up the info that he slept with Liz Rimmington!! ;D
That´s not lying.... :P
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That´s not lying.... :P
It's not telling the truth either ;D ;D ;D
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But in his mind the Matthew MacDonald story was telling white lies. Had Jeremy ever lied to Julie during the two years or so they had been together? How did Julie know what Jeremy's plans were if she thought there was a possibility they would marry,or was Jeremy postponing the marriage because the idea came from June just another example of Jeremy's duplicitousness?
LOTS of questions, Steve. Naturally, I can't answer with total certainty but I wouldn't imagine that their time together was completely free from lies. You ask, how did Julie know his plans re marriage. The answer is, she probably didn't but I suspect that because he never actually spelled it out, in words of one syllable, that he would never marry her, she took his silence as meaning that he eventually would because it's what she WANTED to believe.
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That Nevill allegedly brought in the last trailer doesn't appear to have been questioned by any of the investigations possibly means that there was proof it occurred? We don't have Pamela Boutflour's full statements and so there is the possibility that June may have mentioned where Nevill was and what he was doing,during their 10pm phone conversation.
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I don't supposed he offered up the info that he slept with Liz Rimmington!! ;D
well considering his alleged playboy status - I don't think he would have been shy about that.
I often wondered why Liz became embroiled with some of Julies "stories" do you think it was a case of two women scorned? Perhaps he made her some promises he did not keep?
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well considering his alleged playboy status - I don't think he would have been shy about that.
I often wondered why Liz became embroiled with some of Julies "stories" do you think it was a case of two women scorned? Perhaps he made her some promises he did not keep?
It doesn't sound as though LR wanted a relationship with him, but it was Liz who told Julie, not Jeremy.
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It doesn't sound as though LR wanted a relationship with him, but it was Liz who told Julie, not Jeremy.
I have known (not personally mind you) two women to gang up together to plot against one man they think cheated on them.
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I have known (not personally mind you) two women to gang up together to plot against one man they think cheated on them.
I agree and think it's quite plausible that two immature young women (and Julie seems to have been VERY immature) are quite capable of this, also remembering LR had some kind of relationship with Mathew MacDonald. Don't know much about it or how it ended but could have left her with a further axe to grind.......??
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I agree and think it's quite plausible that two immature young women (and Julie seems to have been VERY immature) are quite capable of this, also remembering LR had some kind of relationship with Mathew MacDonald. Don't know much about it or how it ended but could have left her with a further axe to grind.......??
I'm inclined to agree. There's no end to the mischief that can be created by like minded females or those who feel they have been, in some way, wronged. What may start off as quite innocent can take on a life of its' own, each encouraging the other to greater heights. This, of course, MAY have been what transpired but if Steve is correct in believing Julie felt the need to "plead" for Jeremy to spare Sheila and the twins, she'd always been fully aware of what was in his mind.
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I agree and think it's quite plausible that two immature young women (and Julie seems to have been VERY immature) are quite capable of this, also remembering LR had some kind of relationship with Mathew MacDonald. Don't know much about it or how it ended but could have left her with a further axe to grind.......??
I don't think this is correct - her boyfriend had a similar name and I think this is where the confusion is coming from.
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I have known (not personally mind you) two women to gang up together to plot against one man they think cheated on them.
It would take a couple of BLACK hearts to conspire to put a man away for a murder he didn't commit. And although I'm sure it does happen, Julie didn't just tell Liz her tale - did they 'all' conspire? Reading Mike's account of Jeremy's 'loyalty' only strengthens the guilty argument for me.
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I don't think this is correct - her boyfriend had a similar name and I think this is where the confusion is coming from.
You are probably right, think Campion used to say she had an affair with him and have been told it was mentioned in a book but I have never found any evidence myself of such a relationship. May be another myth that has grown up.
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It would take a couple of BLACK hearts to conspire to put a man away for a murder he didn't commit. And although I'm sure it does happen, Julie didn't just tell Liz her tale - did they 'all' conspire? (http://Reading Mike's account of Jeremy's 'loyalty' only strengthens the [b]guilty[/b] argument for me.)
I am not in any way doubting Mike´s account of their last encounter, but in my experience, you always have to hear a case from both sides, because people perceive things very differently.
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You are probably right, think Campion used to say she had an affair with him and have been told it was mentioned in a book but I have never found any evidence myself of such a relationship. May be another myth that has grown up.
MM was a lot older than LR and I can't remember the name of her boyfriend, I will have a look later and see if I can find it. Or maybe someone else knows?
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MM was a lot older than LR and I can't remember the name of her boyfriend, I will have a look later and see if I can find it. Or maybe someone else knows?
From what I've read MM didn't seem particularly fussy in that department and don't know if it was a relationship as such if it ever happened, would think we would all be more aware of it if it is true.
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Talking about blazing rows I just read in his book the account from Peter Thomas Healey about the time that June and Neville were threatened by Jimmy Bell . I had not taken in the fact that not only did he throw the bullets at them but stood there with his 22 rifle with the silencer attached when the threat was going on.
He also tells of another time when Jimmy Bell threatened him with the same rifle.
He is very peeved that his statement was not really acknowledged and still holds the belief that the sighting of the unidentified male was relevant and should have been revealed to the defence . The book is pretty weird to say the least but the last part does give interesting summary of how it was relevant that the prosecution with held evidence and EP withheld evidence that was not even revealed to the prosecution. It explains that at that time the defence could only request information from what the prosecution told them existed . And the prosecution should have revealed anything that could have potentially have helped jeremys defence. Which they did not.
There is also the name of the man who heard a shot or shots earlier in the evening .
I have only skim read it so far and as I say it is a book that is a bit "all over the place" but it is interesting.
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Talking about blazing rows I just read in his book the account from Peter Thomas Healey about the time that June and Neville were threatened by Jimmy Bell . I had not taken in the fact that not only did he throw the bullets at them but stood there with his 22 rifle with the silencer attached when the threat was going on.
He also tells of another time when Jimmy Bell threatened him with the same rifle.
He is very peeved that his statement was not really acknowledged and still holds the belief that the sighting of the unidentified male was relevant and should have been revealed to the defence . The book is pretty weird to say the least but the last part does give interesting summary of how it was relevant that the prosecution with held evidence and EP withheld evidence that was not even revealed to the prosecution. It explains that at that time the defence could only request information from what the prosecution told them existed . And the prosecution should have revealed anything that could have potentially have helped jeremys defence. Which they did not.
There is also the name of the man who heard a shot or shots earlier in the evening .
I have only skim read it so far and as I say it is a book that is a bit "all over the place" but it is interesting.
Have read it too Jan and found it interesting, I agree it's all over the place but I found the account of what he witnessed in that car park very convincing and troubling. I did email with him for a while but stuff got in the way I must contact him again. He was a really nice man.
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Have read it too Jan and found it interesting, I agree it's all over the place but I found the account of what he witnessed in that car park very convincing and troubling. I did email with him for a while but stuff got in the way I must contact him again. He was a really nice man.
Yes it was very scary and obviously a man who would not of hesitated to kill the children either. Its not saying he did it but I agree the fact that the family were under serious threat was obviously a fact . I wonder why NB did not get him prosecuted for such a threat ? That I find a bit odd?
Also ( as I say I have skim read it ) I did not realise in the lie detector Jeremy states that there was a radio log where bews reported seeing the figure at the window. Hence why he has been constantly trying to get the audio logs .
Yes it would be interesting if you have his email to see how he feels now , still watching Jeremys appeals keep failing.
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Talking about blazing rows I just read in his book the account from Peter Thomas Healey about the time that June and Neville were threatened by Jimmy Bell . I had not taken in the fact that not only did he throw the bullets at them but stood there with his 22 rifle with the silencer attached when the threat was going on.
He also tells of another time when Jimmy Bell threatened him with the same rifle.
He is very peeved that his statement was not really acknowledged and still holds the belief that the sighting of the unidentified male was relevant and should have been revealed to the defence . The book is pretty weird to say the least but the last part does give interesting summary of how it was relevant that the prosecution with held evidence and EP withheld evidence that was not even revealed to the prosecution. It explains that at that time the defence could only request information from what the prosecution told them existed . And the prosecution should have revealed anything that could have potentially have helped jeremys defence. Which they did not.
There is also the name of the man who heard a shot or shots earlier in the evening .
I have only skim read it so far and as I say it is a book that is a bit "all over the place" but it is interesting.
It is interesting,I must get that one,as it's written by a man " who knows ".Yes I knew about the rifle he pointed at the two of them.This is why I brought the Bell subject up last night,as this would account for the way Neville felt about " I mustn't turn my back on that young man " when he'd said it to BW.
Jeremy got the blame for that because it suited everones' scenario/theory,even BW's when she was in the wrong company and easily led.
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The writer seems convinced that Jimmy bell was involved in other things that went on as well.
You see if that rifle was by the window as stated by Jeapes then it is possible the whole suicide was actually not "faked " by Jeremy after all.
Could someone have faked the call from Neville?
I again will state I am not saying any of that is even possible but the writer said that he felt that the serious threat by a man with the same type of rifle should have been taken into account. Plus the report of the man leaving WHF .
These after all are not theories - they are documented events . And yet witnesses who claim to know about Jeremys sexual preferences are allowed to speak without substantiated evidence ( the police loved the fact that he might be in their words a "poof" )
As to the thread title was it just a bit of an argument - in a family business that was probably not unusual that was blown up to suit the circumstance? Only a few people know the truth about that.
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It is interesting,I must get that one,as it's written by a man " who knows ".Yes I knew about the rifle he pointed at the two of them.This is why I brought the Bell subject up last night,as this would account for the way Neville felt about " I mustn't turn my back on that young man " when he'd said it to BW.
Jeremy got the blame for that because it suited everones' scenario/theory,even BW's when she was in the wrong company and easily led.
Lookout, Neville would hardly refer to Jimmy as a "young man". They were similar in age.
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Lookout, Neville would hardly refer to Jimmy as a "young man". They were similar in age.
He might just have been being polite. ;D
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The writer seems convinced that Jimmy bell was involved in other things that went on as well.
You see if that rifle was by the window as stated by Jeapes then it is possible the whole suicide was actually not "faked " by Jeremy after all.
Could someone have faked the call from Neville?
I again will state I am not saying any of that is even possible but the writer said that he felt that the serious threat by a man with the same type of rifle should have been taken into account. Plus the report of the man leaving WHF .
These after all are not theories - they are documented events . And yet witnesses who claim to know about Jeremys sexual preferences are allowed to speak without substantiated evidence ( the police loved the fact that he might be in their words a "poof" )
As to the thread title was it just a bit of an argument - in a family business that was probably not unusual that was blown up to suit the circumstance? Only a few people know the truth about that.
That is not impossible.
How often are people threatened with a gun and have bullets thrown at them?? It should absolutely have been taken into account!
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That is not impossible.
How often are people threatened with a gun and have bullets thrown at them?? It should absolutely have been taken into account!
I agree. Also a rifle along with a threat made in anger. I still reckon that somebody wanted Jeremy dead too.
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The writer seems convinced that Jimmy bell was involved in other things that went on as well.
You see if that rifle was by the window as stated by Jeapes then it is possible the whole suicide was actually not "faked " by Jeremy after all.
Could someone have faked the call from Neville?
I again will state I am not saying any of that is even possible but the writer said that he felt that the serious threat by a man with the same type of rifle should have been taken into account. Plus the report of the man leaving WHF .
These after all are not theories - they are documented events . And yet witnesses who claim to know about Jeremys sexual preferences are allowed to speak without substantia
ted evidence ( the police loved the fact that he might be in their words a "poof" )
As to the thread title was it just a bit of an argument - in a family business that was probably not unusual that was blown up to suit the circumstance? Only a few people know the truth about that.
I got the impression PH suspected Jimmy Bell may have been involved with the disappearance of Diane Jones as well but am aware April knows far more about all these goings on and about Jimmy Bell than I do eventhough it all sounded very suspicious. He seemed to be very handy waving his .22 around and did eventually shoot his young wife dead although fortunately the baby escaped.
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He was a very violent and dangerous individual,Maggie.
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Talking about blazing rows I just read in his book the account from Peter Thomas Healey about the time that June and Neville were threatened by Jimmy Bell . I had not taken in the fact that not only did he throw the bullets at them but stood there with his 22 rifle with the silencer attached when the threat was going on.
He also tells of another time when Jimmy Bell threatened him with the same rifle.
He is very peeved that his statement was not really acknowledged and still holds the belief that the sighting of the unidentified male was relevant and should have been revealed to the defence . The book is pretty weird to say the least but the last part does give interesting summary of how it was relevant that the prosecution with held evidence and EP withheld evidence that was not even revealed to the prosecution. It explains that at that time the defence could only request information from what the prosecution told them existed . And the prosecution should have revealed anything that could have potentially have helped jeremys defence. Which they did not.
There is also the name of the man who heard a shot or shots earlier in the evening .
I have only skim read it so far and as I say it is a book that is a bit "all over the place" but it is interesting.
Jan, much as everyone now seems to want Jimmy to be responsible, we MUST look at it more closely. It is said that Neville was responsible for Jimmy's imprisonment. The crime which put Jimmy there was too serious a crime for a magistrate's court so other than, perhaps referring it to Crown court, Neville had no involvement. It would have made more sense for Jimmy to threaten the trial judge.
Also to be looked at is that as most of his family were under police protection because of his threats against them, it HIGHLY unlikely he could have gone anywhere without the police knowing where he was and as he drove a top of the range Mercedes he was hardly inconspicuous.
The reason for Jimmy's ire with Neville and June rests, I believe, with his young wife, Augusta, who I believe had poured out her heart, regarding their unhappy marriage, to June, who, good woman that she was, had gone, accompanied by Neville(?) to visit Augusta at home, presumably to do some marriage guidance work. Jimmy would have been INCANDESCENT at their temerity in "interfering" in his business. He would neither have forgotten nor forgiven. It has to be remembered though, that despite his terrifying threats to shoot all and sundry, Jimmy ACTUALLY, until the time he shot Augusta and then turned the gun on himself, did little more than stalk. Had the man I'd known for much of my life, INTENDED to kill, he wouldn't have threatened, he'd have done it, just as he did with Augusta. He wouldn't have skulked around at night, he'd have done it in broad daylight because he'd have believed he was justified in doing it.
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EP allowed JB a gun licence on release from prison,after being inside on a charge of ABH ?
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Another one who can't speak.Amazing,isn't it ?
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April, I wouldn´t call stalking "nothing more than" - it is very serious, especially if you wave a deadly weapon around!
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EP allowed JB a gun licence on release from prison,after being inside on a charge of ABH ?
I don't think that is true Lookout? Mind you Aunt A has a rifle that belonged to Jeremy. I always thought that exhibits were not returned to their owners and certainly not the murder weapon...so which rifle it is, is not clear.
Up to the murders Jeremy never had a licence for any gun....it was in Nevill's name. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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EP allowed JB a gun licence on release from prison,after being inside on a charge of ABH ?
Funny that he has the same initials as Jeremy - not that it means anything, just a funny little detail.
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Funny that he has the same initials as Jeremy - not that it means anything, just a funny little detail.
Hahaha I think I am on the wrong end of the stick here....JB being Mr Bell and not Bamber! Back to bed I go with the Dandy!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I don't think that is true Lookout? Mind you Aunt A has a rifle that belonged to Jeremy. I always thought that exhibits were not returned to their owners and certainly not the murder weapon...so which rifle it is, is not clear.
Up to the murders Jeremy never had a licence for any gun....it was in Nevill's name. ;D ;D ;D ;D
Lookout is talking about Jimmy Bell, JB - I presume. ;D
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I don't think that is true Lookout? Mind you Aunt A has a rifle that belonged to Jeremy. I always thought that exhibits were not returned to their owners and certainly not the murder weapon...so which rifle it is, is not clear.
Up to the murders Jeremy never had a licence for any gun....it was in Nevill's name. ;D ;D ;D ;D
Patti,it's a quote from Peter Healeys' book. You should see the brash comment from Harrison.At least Thomas's book is out. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Lookout is talking about Jimmy Bell, JB - I presume. ;D
I know. Now she will have me guts for garters.... :-[ ;) ;D
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EP allowed JB a gun licence on release from prison,after being inside on a charge of ABH ?
Oh, I get your point, Lookout, although the ABH charge had nothing to do with a gun. I'm very bad on timelines but I THINK the prison term was in the early 80's. He met Augusta when he was released and it's POSSIBLE that with a new interest, the threats to his family ceased. His temper, though, was no less moderated.
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I know. Now she will have me guts for garters.... :-[ ;) ;D
I realised you didn't catch that it wasn't Jeremy I was talking about. No problem.x No thick ear this time ;D
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Patti,it's a quote from Peter Healeys' book. You should see the brash comment from Harrison.At least Thomas's book is out. ;D ;D ;D ;D
I gathered that Lookout.....I do have one eye shut you know.. ;)
This information where does it originate from? from the book? Who witnessed it and is there any statement or documents to prove that this happened? Me is being naughty....lol ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I realised you didn't catch that it wasn't Jeremy I was talking about. No problem.x No thick ear this time ;D
Phew! ;D ;D ;D ;D
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re the discussion we had earlier about boarding school. Earl Spencer talks about torment at boarding school.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2894655/Diana-s-brother-Earl-Spencer-says-wishes-d-gone-state-school-instead-cold-unpleasant-boarding-school-boys-regularly-caned.html
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Oh, I get your point, Lookout, although the ABH charge had nothing to do with a gun. I'm very bad on timelines but I THINK the prison term was in the early 80's. He met Augusta when he was released and it's POSSIBLE that with a new interest, the threats to his family ceased. His temper, though, was no less moderated.
He'd have been a suspect in my books,April.
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April, I wouldn´t call stalking "nothing more than" - it is very serious, especially if you wave a deadly weapon around!
Yes Alias, you have a point :D
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I gathered that Lookout.....I do have one eye shut you know.. ;)
This information where does it originate from? from the book? Who witnessed it and is there any statement or documents to prove that this happened? Me is being naughty....lol ;D ;D ;D ;D
It's all from the author,Peter Healey,Patti. He knows Essex and everyone there like the back of his hand.
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re the discussion we had earlier about boarding school. Earl Spencer talks about torment at boarding school.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2894655/Diana-s-brother-Earl-Spencer-says-wishes-d-gone-state-school-instead-cold-unpleasant-boarding-school-boys-regularly-caned.html
I was reading about that this morning. Must have been absolutely horrible.Bad enough being away from home as a young child,but to suffer the wrath of teachers and pupils as well would have been the worst torture/nightmare. No wonder some of the kids go off the rails,or end up crackers.
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He'd have been a suspect in my books,April.
Whose to say he wasn't even though, as I said, it simply WASN'T his style, PLUS I really can't see him walking 12 odd miles from Coggeshall to D'arcy and he could N EVER have been described as SCRUFFY. If he'd done it, he wouldn't have hidden it. He'd have driven straight up to the door. Also to bear in mind is that he lived with his wife, daughter and two adult sons, and generally speaking, what is harvest time for one farmer is harvest time for another.
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I was reading about that this morning. Must have been absolutely horrible.Bad enough being away from home as a young child,but to suffer the wrath of teachers and pupils as well would have been the worst torture/nightmare. No wonder some of the kids go off the rails,or end up crackers.
I agree 100% - and as I said, I hope there is more protection of those little kids now.
Is it still normal in certain circles to send their children away to boarding school at the age of 8? It is far, far too early to be sent away from home!!!
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No, he took the tractor to Goldhanger and THEN went to WHF.
He dropped the grabber off the tractor at Goldhanger, but then drove the tractor back to WHF to pick his car up. Otherwise what would he have drove to WHF?
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Whose to say he wasn't even though, as I said, it simply WASN'T his style, PLUS I really can't see him walking 12 odd miles from Coggeshall to D'arcy and he could N EVER have been described as SCRUFFY. If he'd done it, he wouldn't have hidden it. He'd have driven straight up to the door. Also to bear in mind is that he lived with his wife, daughter and two adult sons, and generally speaking, what is harvest time for one farmer is harvest time for another.
He wouldn't have walked,that's for sure.
It was a year or so later after rge WHF murders that Jimmy shot his wife,then himself.
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He wouldn't have walked,that's for sure.
It was a year or so later after rge WHF murders that Jimmy shot his wife,then himself.
This is actually very remarkable - when you think about that he had threatened the Bambers - with a 22. rifle.
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Whose to say he wasn't even though, as I said, it simply WASN'T his style, PLUS I really can't see him walking 12 odd miles from Coggeshall to D'arcy and he could N EVER have been described as SCRUFFY. If he'd done it, he wouldn't have hidden it. He'd have driven straight up to the door. Also to bear in mind is that he lived with his wife, daughter and two adult sons, and generally speaking, what is harvest time for one farmer is harvest time for another.
think he was questioned lookout but he obviously had an alibi as the police d u dent take it any further.
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This is actually very remarkable - when you think about that he had threatened the Bambers - with a 22. rifle.
Probably NOT so remarkable if the gun of choice for all the farmers in the area was a .22. Off the top of my head, as Jimmy was the (inbeaten?) clay pigeon shooting champion of England, PERHAPS it was a question of if it's good enough for Jimmy, it's good enough for us.................on the other hand, I haven't a clue which gun is used to shoot what ;D ;D
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I don't think that is true Lookout? Mind you Aunt A has a rifle that belonged to Jeremy. I always thought that exhibits were not returned to their owners and certainly not the murder weapon...so which rifle it is, is not clear.
Up to the murders Jeremy never had a licence for any gun....it was in Nevill's name. ;D ;D ;D ;D
That's an air rifle Patti and doesn't need a fire arms licence. Neither do you need to inform the police.
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Probably NOT so remarkable if the gun of choice for all the farmers in the area was a .22. Off the top of my head, as Jimmy was the (inbeaten?) clay pigeon shooting champion of England, PERHAPS it was a question of if it's good enough for Jimmy, it's good enough for us.................on the other hand, I haven't a clue which gun is used to shoot what ;D ;D
I don't think they use .22 rifles for clay pigeon shoots April? I could be wrong though?
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I don't think they use .22 rifles for clay pigeon shoots April? I could be wrong though?
MUCH less likely than I, to be wrong, Grahame :D
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Jimmy Bell only served five weeks inside. Most probable he was sentenced in a magistrates court then. I remember reading once that the reason he threatened the Bamber's was because Nevill was part of the bench that allegedly handed one of Bell's sons a custodial sentence. Don't know if that is indeed true or not.
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Was one of the sons called Jimmy as well ?
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Jimmy Bell only served five weeks inside. Most probable he was sentenced in a magistrates court then. I remember reading once that the reason he threatened the Bamber's was because Nevill was part of the bench that allegedly handed one of Bell's sons a custodial sentence. Don't know if that is indeed true or not.
I think the sentence was for a year, Tyler, but I have no recall of the actual time he served. I've never heard it said that either of his sons received a custodial sentence for anything. I would have said, given their career choices, it's unlikely.
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I have no idea Lookout,sorry.
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Was one of the sons called Jimmy as well ?
No, Lookout.
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Thankyou. :)
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That's an air rifle Patti and doesn't need a fire arms licence. Neither do you need to inform the police.
Arrr thanks Mr Gee....I did not know what sort of rifle it was. Memory not so good these days... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Jimmy Bell only served five weeks inside. Most probable he was sentenced in a magistrates court then. I remember reading once that the reason he threatened the Bamber's was because Nevill was part of the bench that allegedly handed one of Bell's sons a custodial sentence. Don't know if that is indeed true or not.
It was mentioned that Neville was involved in the case of assault against his ex wife I think . Also He threatened Healey with a gun just for peering into a bungalow on his land as he was supposed to be picking up a pupil - and the family has just disappeared.
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It was mentioned that Neville was involved in the case of assault against his ex wife I think . Also He threatened Healey with a gun just for peering into a bungalow on his land as he was supposed to be picking up a pupil - and the family has just disappeared.
The Healey family?
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The Healey family?
Peter Healey the same one who witnessed him threaten the bambers . Don't know who the family were . I will explain later.
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Peter Healey the same one who witnessed him threaten the bambers . Don't know who the family were . I will explain later.
This is all a bit strange!
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This is all a bit strange!
It will be interesting to see how it develops, Alias.
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Bell had served a six month sentence for a bizarre attack on his first wife janet.Humiliating her for allegedly having an affair with another man. He had beaten her I think paraded her through a pub and threatened to kill her lover and himself. During the trial Augusta stuck by him (1982) . Then she walked out on him . He followed her and her mother managed to escape with the 18 month old daughter. Ther was a 4 hour siege and augusta was killed and allegedly ( although his associates thought other wise ) he committed suicide .
Thomas Healey used to visit a bungalow let out by Bell and the family moved heaven and earth to get the boy into the local school . Healey used to collect the school children and without warning one day the family had gone. When he peered into the bungalow to see why they were not there Jimmy bell appeared and threatened him , because he was looking in the windows.
I am just checking why he thought the bambers were threatened.
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Apparently Jimmy Bell and NB used to be friends . One day Peter Healey was parked in car park when out of a 4x4 came bullets ( thrown) some hit his bus . The bullets had been thrown by Jimmy at Neville and June . He was waving his gun frantically . He was saying something about Neville could have helped him when he was sent to prison for assaulting his wife
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This Jimmy Bell seemed totally unhinged!
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Bell had served a six month sentence for a bizarre attack on his first wife janet.Humiliating her for allegedly having an affair with another man. He had beaten her I think paraded her through a pub and threatened to kill her lover and himself. During the trial Augusta stuck by him (1982) . Then she walked out on him . He followed her and her mother managed to escape with the 18 month old daughter. Ther was a 4 hour siege and augusta was killed and allegedly ( although his associates thought other wise ) he committed suicide .
Thomas Healey used to visit a bungalow let out by Bell and the family moved heaven and earth to get the boy into the local school . Healey used to collect the school children and without warning one day the family had gone. When he peered into the bungalow to see why they were not there Jimmy bell appeared and threatened him , because he was looking in the windows.
I am just checking why he thought the bambers were threatened.
Apparently Jimmy Bell and NB used to be friends . One day Peter Healey was parked in car park when out of a 4x4 came bullets ( thrown) some hit his bus . The bullets had been thrown by Jimmy at Neville and June . He was waving his gun frantically . He was saying something about Neville could have helped him when he was sent to prison for assaulting his wife
Jan, there are elements of truth in what you've said. Jimmy was, indeed, HIGHLY volatile but I never once, witnessed that side of him -he was always courteous and kind- I now suspect he kept that side of his character hidden from me deliberately. He was certainly challenging and combative, on one occasion, challenging me until he realized who I was and was beside himself with embarrassment.
There is stuff here which, IMO, goes WAY beyond what it's necessary for us to know in relationship to Jeremy's case. Probably more people suffered as a result of what he did, than did those connected to Jeremy.
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Is there another book to read on the Bamber case? All this stuff about Jimmy Bell is not in the main four covered by egap1's thread.
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It sure makes you wonder ! Handy with a rifle.Top man in clay-pigeon shooting. Not right in the head. Bore a grudge. Shot his wife,then himself in 1986. I'd have said it was more than anger management he needed.!
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Jan, there are elements of truth in what you've said. Jimmy was, indeed, HIGHLY volatile but I never once, witnessed that side of him -he was always courteous and kind- I now suspect he kept that side of his character hidden from me deliberately. He was certainly challenging and combative, on one occasion, challenging me until he realized who I was and was beside himself with embarrassment.
There is stuff here which, IMO, goes WAY beyond what it's necessary for us to know in relationship to Jeremy's case. Probably more people suffered as a result of what he did, than did those connected to Jeremy.
I would say you are correct - he obviously was wealthy and charmed augusta and apparently was good friends with Neville .The author seems to think the episode with his ex wife to whom he was married for 27 years and the jail sentence tipped him over the edge. Again I emphasise he was not being accused . But he felt his guns should have been checked and the Jury should have been aware of the threat.. He also explains other tragedies of the time. It is not all about Bamber.
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Is there another book to read on the Bamber case? All this stuff about Jimmy Bell is not in the main four covered by egap1's thread.
do you have a spiritual side / magic / spirits etc? If so it is the book for you :)
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It sure makes you wonder ! Handy with a rifle.Top man in clay-pigeon shooting. Not right in the head. Bore a grudge. Shot his wife,then himself in 1986. I'd have said it was more than anger management he needed.!
He can't be a suspect in this case.
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Who was the guy that the postman spotted and reported to the police? I would say leaving the grounds of WHF,where the police searched but didn't go any further. Why should anyone be seen hanging around early in the morning after 5 people had been murdered.? There were more sightings of strangers around the place than there was of Jeremy, who was supposed to have committed the damn murders.
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do you have a spiritual side / magic / spirits etc? If so it is the book for you :)
Have you ever had the feeling that you're missing out? I wish someone would explain where all this information from the last 20 threads or so is emanating from.
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Who was the guy that the postman spotted and reported to the police? I would say leaving the grounds of WHF,where the police searched but didn't go any further. Why should anyone be seen hanging around early in the morning after 5 people had been murdered.? There were more sightings of strangers around the place than there was of Jeremy, who was supposed to have committed the damn murders.
Nosy neighbours
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Have you ever had the feeling that you're missing out? I wish someone would explain where all this information from the last 20 threads or so is emanating from.
Steve, I think some people have very colourful imaginations :D
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He can't be a suspect in this case.
How do you know ?
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Have you ever had the feeling that you're missing out? I wish someone would explain where all this information from the last 20 threads or so is emanating from.
Its a book by Peter Thomas Healey Rough Justice - I REPEAT he was not accusing Jimmy of the murders - but he felt the Jury were not given the full picture of the family . I guess he was self published and any money made from the book ( if any ) was going to charity. It is quite useful though because there are some good summaries at the end of newspaper reports and the how the justice system disclosure etc has changed over the years. He believes that there was non - disclosure that meant JB did not have a fair trial .Just his opinion he is not a legal expert or anything like that .
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How do you know ?
I knew you would ask ;D Beeeeeeeecause ......... Jeremy said his father phoned him and told him "Sheila, has gone crazy, she's got the gun"
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How do you know ?
Lookout, why are you so keen to make him a suspect?
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I knew you would ask ;D Beeeeeeeecause ......... Jeremy said his father phoned him and told him "Sheila, has gone crazy, she's got the gun"
Buuuuut, he could have pretended to be Nevill on the phone..... ;)
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I knew you would ask ;D Beeeeeeeecause ......... Jeremy said his father phoned him and told him "Sheila, has gone crazy, she's got the gun"
It might NOT have been his father on the phone though. A man the same age as his father would sound pretty well the same on the phone.
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Buuuuut, he could have pretended to be Nevill on the phone..... ;)
Would you be fooled by someone pretending to be your father? And for what reason would he have to kill two small sleeping children? If he had a beef with Nevill, I very much doubt he would wait until Sheila and her children were there. He sounds like the kind of person who is reactionary and does things on the spur - not sneak into someone's house in the dead of night.
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It might NOT have been his father on the phone though. A man the same age as his father would sound pretty well the same on the phone.
So all elderly men sound the same? I would know my dads voice in a thousand!
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Lookout, why are you so keen to make him a suspect?
Because I've never believed that Sheila took her own life.
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Because I've never believed that Sheila took her own life.
She didn't ;)
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Would you be fooled by someone pretending to be your father? And for what reason would he have to kill two small sleeping children? If he had a beef with Nevill, I very much doubt he would wait until Sheila and her children were there. He sounds like the kind of person who is reactionary and does things on the spur - not sneak into someone's house in the dead of night.
Caroline, there was nothing duplicitous about him. He didn't take time out to consider what would be his best move. He acted quite spontaneously and as I said, would NEVER have skulked around in the dark. He'd have blasted them in full daylight had he felt justified. Neither would he have attacked those who hadn't, in some way, offended him.
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Would you be fooled by someone pretending to be your father? And for what reason would he have to kill two small sleeping children? If he had a beef with Nevill, I very much doubt he would wait until Sheila and her children were there. He sounds like the kind of person who is reactionary and does things on the spur - not sneak into someone's house in the dead of night.
I happen to have an extreme memory for voices, so no, I wouldn´t be fooled. I don´t know how Jeremy´s voice recognition capacity is. He claims he was woken up, probably confused, conversation very short.
I don´t seriously think this happened, but nothing is impossible, and I am always looking for that missing piece. To me the case is not solved.
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Would you be fooled by someone pretending to be your father? And for what reason would he have to kill two small sleeping children? If he had a beef with Nevill, I very much doubt he would wait until Sheila and her children were there. He sounds like the kind of person who is reactionary and does things on the spur - not sneak into someone's house in the dead of night.
My late husband and his brother sounded identical on the phone. My daughters' friends' husband sounds like my brother.
If the guy can kill,by shooting his wife,and nearly killing his own child into the bargain,then he's got no qualms about shooting dead someone else's wife and children.
There's every possibility that he HADN'T known that Sheila and the twins were there.
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Because I've never believed that Sheila took her own life.
Surely you can't mean that ANYONE other than Jeremy is responsible!!!
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Caroline, there was nothing duplicitous about him. He didn't take time out to consider what would be his best move. He acted quite spontaneously and as I said, would NEVER have skulked around in the dark. He'd have blasted them in full daylight had he felt justified. Neither would he have attacked those who hadn't, in some way, offended him.
That's how he sounds to me too - a hothead.
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My late husband and his brother sounded identical on the phone. My daughters' friends' husband sounds like my brother.
If the guy can kill,by shooting his wife,and nearly killing his own child into the bargain,then he's got no qualms about shooting dead someone else's wife and children.
There's every possibility that he HADN'T known that Sheila and the twins were there.
I would know my dads voice out of a thousand. However, why was he calling Jeremy? (Not that he did).
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That's how he sounds to me too - a hothead.
Why didn't I think of that? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Caroline, there was nothing duplicitous about him. He didn't take time out to consider what would be his best move. He acted quite spontaneously and as I said, would NEVER have skulked around in the dark. He'd have blasted them in full daylight had he felt justified. Neither would he have attacked those who hadn't, in some way, offended him.
There was a four hour siege before he shot his wife, then himself. He must have had some second thoughts, not completely spontanious - four hours is a long time. Poor woman, poor kid.
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I happen to have an extreme memory for voices, so no, I wouldn´t be fooled. I don´t know how Jeremy´s voice recognition capacity is. He claims he was woken up, probably confused, conversation very short.
I don´t seriously think this happened, but nothing is impossible, and I am always looking for that missing piece. To me the case is not solved.
I agree with that, some people give dreadful descriptions of people and would swear they had seen what they describe even though they are proven to be completely wrong. It can be the same with voices especially if the words spoken are words associated by the listener with a particular person. It probably didn't happen but there is a possibility it did.
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And did he also call the police and pretend to be Nevill? There's kind of no logic is there?
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She didn't ;)
Exactly--------she was shot.Both women were facing each other in the bedroom.Both had originally been sitting up when shot,with the rifle just thrown down on the floor the same as the Bible was with its pages opened wherever it landed,from a height.
On that rifle were fingerprints of an unknown male.
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My late husband and his brother sounded identical on the phone. My daughters' friends' husband sounds like my brother.
If the guy can kill,by shooting his wife,and nearly killing his own child into the bargain,then he's got no qualms about shooting dead someone else's wife and children.
There's every possibility that he HADN'T known that Sheila and the twins were there.
It's beginning to sound as if you're accusing Jimmy of the murders, Lookout.
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I would know my dads voice out of a thousand. However, why was he calling Jeremy? (Not that he did).
To have him come over to be able to wipe the Bamber family off the face of the earth!
There was no call to the police....
As I said, I don´t really believe this, just answering back! 8)
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It's beginning to sound as if you're accusing Jimmy of the murders, Lookout.
It's not the first time I have,April.
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Surely you can't mean that ANYONE other than Jeremy is responsible!!!
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There was a four hour siege before he shot his wife, then himself. He must have had some second thoughts, not completely spontanious - four hours is a long time. Poor woman, poor kid.
Yes, what he did was terrible but he had obviously made up his mind that he wanted to die and he was taking his wife with him. I don't buy that he had any involvement in the Bamber case. The past few days it's been pinned on a farm hand, this bloke and any Tom, Dick or Harry that happened to be wandering the lanes (real or made up). For me, it was either Jeremy or Sheila or possibly both.
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I believe Sheila shot herself. Then when police broke in the police tried to disarm the rifle they accidentally shot her again. At some time she was laid on her back on a hard floor and given cpr. This would explain the blood from her mouth and as her head was tilted backward it explains the blood running up to her eye. Her head was not in that position in any of the photos. Also at some point she was placed in the recovery position. This would explain the blood stain forming on the left side of her body as she lay on her left side.
The sequence of these actions I cannot confidently say?
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I would know my dads voice out of a thousand. However, why was he calling Jeremy? (Not that he did).
As a sixth.
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To have him come over to be able to wipe the Bamber family off the face of the earth!
There was no call to the police....
As I said, I don´t really believe this, just answering back! 8)
So it wouldn't cross his mind that Jeremy might just call the police instead of coming over? And for those who believe that there from a call from 'someone' (Nevill or a Mr (or Mrs) X) to the police - why? It all gets a bit messy and completely hard to believe.
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As a sixth.
Because?
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Yes, what he did was terrible but he had obviously made up his mind that he wanted to die and he was taking his wife with him. I don't buy that he had any involvement in the Bamber case. The past few days it's been pinned on a farm hand, this bloke and any Tom, Dick or Harry that happened to be wandering the lanes (real or made up). For me, it was either Jeremy or Sheila or possibly both.
I think though that some of the words that Barbara attributed to Jeremy which became part of the character assassination ( even though his name was never mentioned ) May have referred to others that NB felt threatened by and therefore could be relevant . And there was an incident report about a person seen in the vicinity - were they ever traced or identified? If not then surely it is relevant - how many people would be wandering about at that time of the night? Or could they have been potential witnesses for Jeremy leaving the scene earlier?
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Yes, what he did was terrible but he had obviously made up his mind that he wanted to die and he was taking his wife with him. I don't buy that he had any involvement in the Bamber case. The past few days it's been pinned on a farm hand, this bloke and any Tom, Dick or Harry that happened to be wandering the lanes (real or made up). For me, it was either Jeremy or Sheila or possibly both.
Caroline, he had NOTHING to lose. It had ALL gone. He took out his close family. Had he wanted more he'd have turned the gun on all the other family members who he believed had turned their backs on him.
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All I can say is that if it was Jimmy Bell then there is no hope whatever for Bamber as he and his wife are both dead. Personally I don't think he had anything to do with it?
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I think though that some of the words that Barbara attributed to Jeremy which became part of the character assassination ( even though his name was never mentioned ) May have referred to others that NB felt threatened by and therefore could be relevant . And there was an incident report about a person seen in the vicinity - were they ever traced or identified? If not then surely it is relevant - how many people would be wandering about at that time of the night? Or could they have been potential witnesses for Jeremy leaving the scene earlier?
Perhaps it was Jeremy?
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So it wouldn't cross his mind that Jeremy might just call the police instead of coming over? And for those who believe that there from a call from 'someone' (Nevill or a Mr (or Mrs) X) to the police - why? It all gets a bit messy and completely hard to believe.
He had a few screws loose, so no, that didn´t enter his mind! :P
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Someone else doing the killing,posing as the father,ringing the police,albeit getting Sheilas' birth date wrong-------------easy,leave Jeremy to it,it gets the killer off the hook.
No blood on the phone,considering Neville had been injured,so it had to be someone else other than Jeremy.
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He had a few screws loose, so no, that didn´t enter his mind! :P
Soz - this has no legs - square peg, round hole! 8)
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Perhaps it was Jeremy?
No I think he was with the police at the time :)
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Someone else doing the killing,posing as the father,ringing the police,albeit getting Sheilas' birth date wrong-------------easy,leave Jeremy to it,it gets the killer off the hook.
No blood on the phone,considering Neville had been injured,so it had to be someone else other than Jeremy.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Someone else doing the killing,posing as the father,ringing the police,albeit getting Sheilas' birth date wrong-------------easy,leave Jeremy to it,it gets the killer off the hook.
No blood on the phone,considering Neville had been injured,so it had to be someone else other than Jeremy.
Well it would have needed to be someone close enough to the family to KNOW Sheila's birthdate, wouldn't it, and if Jeremy got it wrong it doesn't leave much hope for a stranger.
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Someone else doing the killing,posing as the father,ringing the police,albeit getting Sheilas' birth date wrong-------------easy,leave Jeremy to it,it gets the killer off the hook.
No blood on the phone,considering Neville had been injured,so it had to be someone else other than Jeremy.
Don't think so Lookout - And as I said Healey was not accusing Bell .
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Well it would have needed to be someone close enough to the family to KNOW Sheila's birthdate, wouldn't it, and if Jeremy got it wrong it doesn't leave much hope for a stranger.
He was no stranger to Sheila,so a wild guess would have been in order.
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Absolutely Bell had nothing to lose by killing his wife and himself. He was dying of cancer anyway. Sorry but don't believe for one moment that he was in any way involved in the Bamber murders.
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Does 26 sound like 27 ::)
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Don't think so Lookout - And as I said Healey was not accusing Bell .
Was Bell still alive when Healey wrote his book ?
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He was no stranger to Sheila,so a wild guess would have been in order.
In which book does it say Jimmy "was no stranger to Sheila"?
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Soz - this has no legs - square peg, round hole! 8)
Sometimes reality isn´t quite by the book.
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Sometimes reality isn´t quite by the book.
Well, this book is developing into a Fairy Story - of the Grimm variety.
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Absolutely Bell had nothing to lose by killing his wife and himself. He was dying of cancer anyway. Sorry but don't believe for one moment that he was in any way involved in the Bamber murders.
Well Tyler, whilst I wasn't going to reveal that, it's exactly what I meant by saying he had nothing to lose.
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In which book does it say Jimmy "was no stranger to Sheila"?
It was from Campion,not a book.
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It was from Campion,not a book.
There's a thread on here which explains it better. My search facility on here has vanished,along with my name.
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Well, this book is developing into a Fairy Story - of the Grimm variety.
No more a fairy tale than so many other theories put forward. ;D
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There's a thread on here which explains it better. My search facility on here has vanished,along with my name.
That is strange - I have no problems.
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It was from Campion,not a book.
Campion, may he rest in peace, had a few rather quirky thoughts.
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That is strange - I have no problems.
It's gone weird,Alias. I have trouble sending posts as well because I keep getting messages in pink telling me that other posters are posting at the same time. I've been nobbled. ;D ;D
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It's gone weird,Alias. I have trouble sending posts as well because I keep getting messages in pink telling me that other posters are posting at the same time. I've been nobbled. ;D ;D
It happens when the thread is busy, Lookout. It's happened to me several times tonight!!! Just keep clicking POST until it clears.
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No more a fairy tale than so many other theories put forward. ;D
This doesn't even warrant 'theory' status ;D ;D
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Campion, may he rest in peace, had a few rather quirky thoughts.
Lovely man, was on the ball about a lot of things and was no fool. Very knowledgeable I'd have said.
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It's gone weird,Alias. I have trouble sending posts as well because I keep getting messages in pink telling me that other posters are posting at the same time. I've been nobbled. ;D ;D
No you haven't lol......I get it all the time. It means that someone else has posted before you and you have to submit your psot twice....I will leave is saying psot as it gets me giggling ;D ;D ;D ;D
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It happens when the thread is busy, Lookout. It's happened to me several times tonight!!! Just keep clicking POST until it clears.
Oh that's a relief. Sometimes I have to have 3 goes at posting,but mainly it's been 2.
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It happens when the thread is busy, Lookout. It's happened to me several times tonight!!! Just keep clicking POST until it clears.
Oh yes, that happens all the time - it is not a glitch, but supposed to be there.
But the missing name and no search function is a glitch - never had that, so I am clueless as to why that might be.
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No you haven't lol......I get it all the time. It means that someone else has posted before you and you have to submit your psot twice....I will leave is saying psot as it gets me giggling ;D ;D ;D ;D
Moths to you too. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Lovely man, was on the ball about a lot of things and was no fool. Very knowledgeable I'd have said.
Indeed so, but NOT always right, however.
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Moths to you too. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Howling ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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This doesn't even warrant 'theory' status ;D ;D
That was not kind! I will repo - never mind! :'( :'( :'( :P
You have to admit that it is somewhat strange that a man threatened the Bambers and threw bullets at them - then the whole family ends up dead.
The man who threatened them kills his wife, then himself one year later.
Does make you stop and say, HUH?
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Howling ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I thought you would be. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D I wouldn't mind,it's the " y" key that's dodgy,not the " u". ;D.
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That was not kind! I will repo - never mind! :'( :'( :'( :P
You have to admit that it is somewhat strange that a man threatened the Bambers and threw bullets at them - then the whole family ends up dead.
The man who threatened them kills his wife, then himself one year later.
Does make you stop and say, HUH?
Not if you'd known him, Alias. True, he did a lot of shouting his mouth off and waving his gun around but he never -to my knowledge- fired it. To my knowledge, he never threatened Augusta, which may have been why her mother allowed him into the house, he shot her then turned the gun on himself.
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Not if you'd known him, Alias. True, he did a lot of shouting his mouth off and waving his gun around but he never -to my knowledge- fired it. To my knowledge, he never threatened Augusta, which may have been why her mother allowed him into the house, he shot her then turned the gun on himself.
He KILLED his wife - I don´t need to know him!
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That was not kind! I will repo - never mind! :'( :'( :'( :P
You have to admit that it is somewhat strange that a man threatened the Bambers and threw bullets at them - then the whole family ends up dead.
The man who threatened them kills his wife, then himself one year later.
Does make you stop and say, HUH?
Honestly? No, if there had been no claim of a call to Jeremy, I'd have thought differently but the call (to me) makes it Jeremy or Sheila. Of course the story might have been an inspiration for what later occurred. I'm sure Jeremy knew about the incident?
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He KILLED his wife - I don´t need to know him!
Supposing, like I, you'd known him BEFORE it happened. I don't believe people have murderer written across their foreheads, Alias.
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Honestly? No, if there had been no claim of a call to Jeremy, I'd have thought differently but the call (to me) makes it Jeremy or Sheila. Of course the story might have been an inspiration for what later occurred. I'm sure Jeremy knew about the incident?
Yes he did because healey wrote to him in Jail to express his dismay that his statement was ignored . But I am not sure if Neville and June told him before the murders.
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Supposing, like I, you'd known him BEFORE it happened. I don't believe people have murderer written across their foreheads, Alias.
No, but this man WAS a murderer - and a wife abuser - and stalker.
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No, but this man WAS a murderer - and a wife abuser - and stalker.
When I knew him he was neither murdering nor stalking and I knew nothing of the wife beatings.
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Honestly? No, if there had been no claim of a call to Jeremy, I'd have thought differently but the call (to me) makes it Jeremy or Sheila. Of course the story might have been an inspiration for what later occurred. I'm sure Jeremy knew about the incident?
My own " theory " on that would be that Jeremy,awakened by a call,half asleep,answered it and probably THOUGHT it was his father. Jeremy would have had the call alright, but it WASN'T his father. All Jeremy would have heard would have been the urgency of it as opposed to whether it was his father or not.
Jeremy was totally in the dark as to what was going on.
Phone was left off the hook at WHF" for effect " and to stop anyone from ringing,as Neville was in no position to phone anyone,besides there having been blood all over it,he was very likely already dead at the time.
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When I knew him he was neither murdering nor stalking and I knew nothing of the wife beatings.
To me that is not the point - the point is that he was a murderer, not what he appeared to be.
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My own " theory " on that would be that Jeremy,awakened by a call,half asleep,answered it and probably THOUGHT it was his father. Jeremy would have had the call alright, but it WASN'T his father. All Jeremy would have heard would have been the urgency of it as opposed to whether it was his father or not.
Jeremy was totally in the dark as to what was going on.
Phone was left off the hook at WHF" for effect " and to stop anyone from ringing,as Neville was in no position to phone anyone,besides there having been blood all over it,he was very likely already dead at the time.
And how would Mr X know Jeremy's phone number? How did Mr X gain entry at that time of night?
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My own " theory " on that would be that Jeremy,awakened by a call,half asleep,answered it and probably THOUGHT it was his father. Jeremy would have had the call alright, but it WASN'T his father. All Jeremy would have heard would have been the urgency of it as opposed to whether it was his father or not.
Jeremy was totally in the dark as to what was going on.
Phone was left off the hook at WHF" for effect " and to stop anyone from ringing,as Neville was in no position to phone anyone,besides there having been blood all over it,he was very likely already dead at the time.
NGB acknowledged he (NB) may have been coerced into the call but it wont be used at an appeal as there is no evidence.
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My own " theory " on that would be that Jeremy,awakened by a call,half asleep,answered it and probably THOUGHT it was his father. Jeremy would have had the call alright, but it WASN'T his father. All Jeremy would have heard would have been the urgency of it as opposed to whether it was his father or not.
Jeremy was totally in the dark as to what was going on.
Phone was left off the hook at WHF" for effect " and to stop anyone from ringing,as Neville was in no position to phone anyone,besides there having been blood all over it,he was very likely already dead at the time.
Sorry Lookout, as a theory it's VERY unlikely. If he wanted Jeremy to come over so he could kill him also - why did he also call the police and pretend to be Nevill?
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Sorry Lookout, as a theory it's VERY unlikely. If he wanted Jeremy to come over so he could kill him also - why did he also call the police and pretend to be Nevill?
I thought the jury was out on the call from Neville to the police?
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To me that is not the point - the point is that he was a murderer, not what he appeared to be.
Are you saying that you know, in advance, that someone -one of your friend- will commit murder in 7 years time?
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BTW one things in Healeys book that I don't think are substantiated but I have heard it elsewhere- Sheilas debt for Cocaine £40000? that was an awful lot of money .
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Are you saying that you know, in advance, that someone -one of your friend- will commit murder in 7 years time?
that could apply to Jeremy or Sheila :(
And according to Healey there was a tipping point . He cant have been that bad or he would not have been friends with Neville in the past.
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Are you saying that you know, in advance, that someone -one of your friend- will commit murder in 7 years time?
Of course not!
I have to be honest, I am not quite sure what you mean, maybe I am slow today!
I was saying that I went, HUH, when I heard about a man having threatened the Bambers with a gun and shot his wife and himself one year later. I don´t understand how that has anything to do with how he seemed to be before it all happened.
Edit: shot his wife and himself one year after the WHF murders.
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BTW one things in Healeys book that I don't think are substantiated but I have heard it elsewhere- Sheilas debt for Cocaine £40000? that was an awful lot of money .
Hmm, I rather think whoever gave him the information was on it BIG time.
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And how would Mr X know Jeremy's phone number? How did Mr X gain entry at that time of night?
He'd have entered the same way that everyone thought Jeremy did.Phone numbers inside farmhouse.
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Hmm, I rather think whoever gave him the information was on it BIG time.
I think it came from newspaper reports at the time I am not sure - I will check the book again
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Sorry Lookout, as a theory it's VERY unlikely. If he wanted Jeremy to come over so he could kill him also - why did he also call the police and pretend to be Nevill?
He'd have thought it was what Neville would have done anyway,call the police. It made it look all the more that it was Jeremy. The killer possibly thought that Jeremy would bomb it there straight away before he,Jeremy called the police himself.
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BTW one things in Healeys book that I don't think are substantiated but I have heard it elsewhere- Sheilas debt for Cocaine £40000? that was an awful lot of money .
It's in Claire Powells' book Jan.
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that could apply to Jeremy or Sheila :(
And according to Healey there was a tipping point . He cant have been that bad or he would not have been friends with Neville in the past.
Jan, the man I knew was a great guy. He kept his workers. The locals treated him as one of them. He was generous to a fault...........................BUT he had a highly volatile temper and was hotheaded beyond belief. Either I never gave him cause OR he worked hard at keeping it from me because he didn't want me to know. I suspect the former because if he HAD lost it he wouldn't have cared who knew.
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Not if you'd known him, Alias. True, he did a lot of shouting his mouth off and waving his gun around but he never -to my knowledge- fired it. To my knowledge, he never threatened Augusta, which may have been why her mother allowed him into the house, he shot her then turned the gun on himself.
Didn't he parade his wife around a pub with a toilet seat round her neck? That came from Campion junior.
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Didn't he parade his wife around a pub with a toilet seat round her neck? That came from Campion junior.
It was also in the papers. Local and national. As I said, there was a side to him that I didn't know about and certainly wouldn't have liked.
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BTW one things in Healeys book that I don't think are substantiated but I have heard it elsewhere- Sheilas debt for Cocaine £40000? that was an awful lot of money .
At last I have been illuminated..http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2530.15.html
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No, but this man WAS a murderer - and a wife abuser - and stalker.
Back in the early days when Keira was around I honestly believed that JBell could have held Neville hostage by gun point, hence the marks on NB's back and forced him to make a call to Jeremy in order to get all the family together and shoot them for interfering with his abuse/beatings to his wife.
He must have been interviewed by the police for his name appears on the examination list...
The lonely hunched back figure on the lane was also investigated, for it appears on the same list.
Many moons later, I do not believe that Bell had anything to do with murders, because of the phone call....
It really is a case of whether Jeremy did it or Sheila.......She/Sheila....has always bothered me, because Jeremy said in his first interview he did not know whether was she or sheila....who had the gun...this then led me to believe it could have been June....How wrong was I? :'(
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I thought the jury was out on the call from Neville to the police?
As far as I'm concerned, it never happened but the campaign team and Lookout believe it so how would that fit into THIS scenario?
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Oh apparently not as good as I had thought..http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rough-Justice-Murders-United-Kingdom/dp/146995186X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1420325768&sr=8-1&keywords=rough+justice+peter+healey#customerReviews
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At last I have been illuminated..http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2530.15.html
Congratulations Steve :) My friend's son has just been made an MBE in the New Years Honours list :) :)
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Oh apparently not as good as I had thought..http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rough-Justice-Murders-United-Kingdom/dp/146995186X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1420325768&sr=8-1&keywords=rough+justice+peter+healey#customerReviews
Although two of the readers gave the book 5 stars. I must make an effort to get in touch with him. I keep meaning to. Perhaps he has more information if I talk with him face to face?
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Congratulations Steve :) My friend's son has just been made an MBE in the New Years Honours list :) :)
Oh dear!! OOOOOPS!!! Sorry Steve, I didn't realize you meant enlightened and the link didn't work.
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Although two of the readers gave the book 5 stars. I must make an effort to get in touch with him. I keep meaning to. Perhaps he has more information if I talk with him face to face?
Do you know him M Gee?
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Oh apparently not as good as I had thought..http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rough-Justice-Murders-United-Kingdom/dp/146995186X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1420325768&sr=8-1&keywords=rough+justice+peter+healey#customerReviews
As I said you have to be into spiritualism to appreciate a lot of it . But the back section contains a lot of accumulated info that it is interesting to have in place.
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Do you know him M Gee?
No I don't Patti. But I think he lives near me?
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No I don't Patti. But I think he lives near me?
He covers the murder by the wealthy antique shop owner as well? Bull ( that's the name I am not swearing)
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BTW one things in Healeys book that I don't think are substantiated but I have heard it elsewhere- Sheilas debt for Cocaine £40000? that was an awful lot of money .
Who has read Claire powells book ? Apparently this might originate from there ? Would be interesting to know. Lookout can you find it?
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Who has read Claire powells book ? Apparently this might originate from there ? Would be interesting to know. Lookout can you find it?
I haven't, it's too expensive and doesn't sound too good. I know Steve has read it.
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I haven't, it's too expensive and doesn't sound too good. I know Steve has read it.
I am just interested where it came from - it says somewhere a friend of Sheilas said it was partly the reason she did some risqué shots in order to pay the debt - then it is said that she was asking her father to help clear the debt. I would just like to know where it came from - because like I said that is in todays terms a lot of money.
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I am just interested where it came from - it says somewhere a friend of Sheilas said it was partly the reason she did some risqué shots in order to pay the debt - then it is said that she was asking her father to help clear the debt. I would just like to know where it came from - because like I said that is in todays terms a lot of money.
Just bought it, I have been wanting to read it for a while, I'll hand a skim when it arrives and see if it's mentioned.
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Hello Jan I have Claire Powells book cost me about 50p or the like on Amazon have not read it yet but will do now Christmas is over. I get the feeling I will not be impressed with the book.
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I am just interested where it came from - it says somewhere a friend of Sheilas said it was partly the reason she did some risqué shots in order to pay the debt - then it is said that she was asking her father to help clear the debt. I would just like to know where it came from - because like I said that is in todays terms a lot of money.
I'm now looking for the chapter where the author mentions the drug debt. And yes,there were risqué pics taken,in order to try and clear this debt. Some of the descriptions that the author uses,are sickening and I won't be repeating them on here.
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I'm now looking for the chapter where the author mentions the drug debt. And yes,there were risqué pics taken,in order to try and clear this debt. Some of the descriptions that the author uses,are sickening and I won't be repeating them on here.
If Sheila had such a drug debt and was a heavy cocaine user she would have been quite capable of killing during withdrawal and psychosis caused by the drug. Her schizophrenia would have added to the problem severe cocaine use and particularly crack cocaine (which she may have progressed to for the instant high) can cause real aggression, violence and murder. True the same can be said for Jeremy but he is accused of / planning the murders and cocaine would cause an unplanned and chaotic attack you can't plan when you will be murdurously psychotic.
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Hello Maggie don't believe for one moment Sheila had such a large drug debt think what £40.000 would be in today's money no dealer would have allowed her to run up such a bill this is just my opinion of course.
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Oh dear!! OOOOOPS!!! Sorry Steve, I didn't realize you meant enlightened and the link didn't work.
What, did you think he's been made one of the Illuminati? ;D
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Just bought it, I have been wanting to read it for a while, I'll hand a skim when it arrives and see if it's mentioned.
I've got that somewhere. A long time since I picked it up.
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Hello Maggie don't believe for one moment Sheila had such a large drug debt think what £40.000 would be in today's money no dealer would have allowed her to run up such a bill this is just my opinion of course.
I agree it would seem unlikely - but it is actually again quite relevant because if Neville and June knew about it they must have been worried sick and it would explain his "alleged" demeanour as explained by Barbara. Also Perhaps Jeremy did not know about it and they argued about it after he left - or perhaps he did and they were going to clear her debt which tipped him over the edge.
Now perhaps it was just hearsay and did not come up before the trial - but I have seen documents about FE on here being under surveillance for drug use ?/ Dealing ? And it appears now it is repeated in two books .
I would just like to know the "source"
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Hello Maggie don't believe for one moment Sheila had such a large drug debt think what £40.000 would be in today's money no dealer would have allowed her to run up such a bill this is just my opinion of course.
Perhaps they didn't in the end? ;)
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What, did you think he's been made one of the Illuminati? ;D
Lost track here somewhere - Peter healey says in the book he was asked to join the masons but did not do so in the end. Is that what you are referring to?
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Lost track here somewhere - Peter healey says in the book he was asked to join the masons but did not do so in the end. Is that what you are referring to?
Haha :) I was answering Steve's post, where he said he had been "enlightened" Jan. Sorry, too subtle. ;D
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Hello Maggie don't believe for one moment Sheila had such a large drug debt think what £40.000 would be in today's money no dealer would have allowed her to run up such a bill this is just my opinion of course.
Have never particularly believed it myself but just saying IF she did she must have been addicted and it changes the whole picture of who Sheila was imo
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Have never particularly believed it myself but just saying IF she did she must have been addicted and it changes the whole picture of who Sheila was imo
that's the problem with quoting from books without the document source.
I did not see it mentioned in colins book - but it must come from Wilkes or CP I think
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Just thinking of what Colin had told Sheila as they'd journeyed to WHF that day. He'd said that he was applying for full custody of the twins. No wonder she was quiet.It would have knocked the wind right out of her sails.
How would that have gone down ? On top of going to a place she'd disliked intensely and to her mother who she hated with a passion ?
BTW,I'm still scouring for that £40,000 debt,to which June wrote out a cheque for.
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I found it from one of your old posts
"Hi April,,I've just found reference to the £40,000 cheque in Wilkes's book. Page 156 if anyone's got the book.
Apparently it was splashed in the front pages of the Mirror newspaper, " The Bambi Bloodbath----Murder or Suicide ",the paper reported that Sheila took hard drugs and owed two notorious drug barons £40,000. ",unquote
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ADAM must have read this then - as it is in WIlkes book .
So original source is the Mirror
wonder what date .
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I found it from one of your old posts
"Hi April,,I've just found reference to the £40,000 cheque in Wilkes's book. Page 156 if anyone's got the book.
Apparently it was splashed in the front pages of the Mirror newspaper, " The Bambi Bloodbath----Murder or Suicide ",the paper reported that Sheila took hard drugs and owed two notorious drug barons £40,000. ",unquote
Gee,thanks Jan. I've been going blind looking for it and was up to page 151.
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I found it from one of your old posts
"Hi April,,I've just found reference to the £40,000 cheque in Wilkes's book. Page 156 if anyone's got the book.
Apparently it was splashed in the front pages of the Mirror newspaper, " The Bambi Bloodbath----Murder or Suicide ",the paper reported that Sheila took hard drugs and owed two notorious drug barons £40,000. ",unquote
Colin comments about the rubbish that was written about Sheila - I think this is probably one of those articles that he was talking about.
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I found it from one of your old posts
"Hi April,,I've just found reference to the £40,000 cheque in Wilkes's book. Page 156 if anyone's got the book.
Apparently it was splashed in the front pages of the Mirror newspaper, " The Bambi Bloodbath----Murder or Suicide ",the paper reported that Sheila took hard drugs and owed two notorious drug barons £40,000. ",unquote
I have not read this. Must have missed it if it is in Wilkes's book.
Hard drugs. Neville and June must have been sending her lots of money. No wonder Jeremy was jealous.
£40,000p, that is a big debt. The 'notorious drug barons must have been in a generous mood to allow her slate to build up so much.
The Mirror. Is that the paper that put on the front page about Neville calling the police ?
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I found it from one of your old posts
"Hi April,,I've just found reference to the £40,000 cheque in Wilkes's book. Page 156 if anyone's got the book.
Apparently it was splashed in the front pages of the Mirror newspaper, " The Bambi Bloodbath----Murder or Suicide ",the paper reported that Sheila took hard drugs and owed two notorious drug barons £40,000. ",unquote
Jan, thanks for that. I do recall it being said. At the time it happened there was something new and darker every day in the red tops. There was a HUGE element of "Look folfs, this is how your supposed superiors REALLY conduct their lives". Many of us took much of it with a pinch of salt. The house I moved into in 1985 cost £17,000 so that VAST amount of money spent on drugs would have been beyond comprehension.
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Colin comments about the rubbish that was written about Sheila - I think this is probably one of those articles that he was talking about.
What about some of Colins' rubbish ? His mysticisms and robins ::)?
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What about some of Colins' rubbish ? His mysticisms and robins ::)?
What about the fact that he lost his children? Perhaps his mysticism helped him through it? ::)
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Jan, thanks for that. I do recall it being said. At the time it happened there was something new and darker every day in the red tops. There was a HUGE element of "Look folfs, this is how your supposed superiors REALLY conduct their lives". Many of us took much of it with a pinch of salt. The house I moved into in 1985 cost £17,000 so that VAST amount of money spent on drugs would have been beyond comprehension.
April,times have changed as regards drugs being obtainable at next to nothing nowadays.Though some,cocaine/heroin,still demand high prices for the " pure " stuff,hence why there are STILL suicides over drug debts,particularly when the barons send out the shooters to retrieve the debt.
In the 80's,drugs weren't as freely available and people DID pay a high price. Drug wars existed in Essex even then.
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What about some of Colins' rubbish ? His mysticisms and robins ::)?
There is this misunderstanding that I have seen repeated. The robin thing didn´t generate from Colin - it were the relatives who told him that while they were at WHF discussing which window Jeremy might have exited through, the scullery window or the kitchen window, a robin flew into the kitchen and shat in the sill of the kitchen window. So they decided it must have been the kitchen window he left through. (!)
Colin had nothing to do with it other than talk about it in his book.
I think the relatives made this up to reel in Colin to their side, them knowing that he was into mysticism. I think they were laughing at him - and then dumped him completely after the verdict. He was very hurt by that. Not so nice people it seems.
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There is this misunderstanding that I have seen repeated. The robin thing didn´t generate from Colin - it were the relatives who told him that while they were at WHF discussing which window Jeremy might have exited through, the scullery window or the kitchen window, a robin flew into the kitchen and shat in the sill of the kitchen window.
Colin had nothing to do with it other than talk about it in his book.
I think the relatives made this up to reel in Colin to their side, them knowing that he was into mysticism. I think they were laughing at him - and then dumped him completely after the verdict. He was very hurt by that. Not so nice people it seems.
Yes,of course it was the relatives,sorry about that. Forum driving me mad. ;D ;D ;D ;D Enraged me.
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What about the fact that he lost his children? Perhaps his mysticism helped him through it? ::)
I agree Caroline - Just because we don't agree with his ways of dealing with things does not mean it did not help him.
He does admit his errors in the book several times .
Still found it a strange book though -but I am halfway through reading it again to try and get a grip on why he spends so much time defending Sheila when she was by default found innocent.
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Gee,thanks Jan. I've been going blind looking for it and was up to page 151.
Does it give any ore details ? How did the Mirror get the info?
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Yes,of course it was the relatives,sorry about that. Forum driving me mad. ;D ;D ;D ;D Enraged me.
do you remember the bit where the relatives also told him Jeremy had been going round the village dressed as a woman? Also how they refused to let him see Granny Bamber - which upset him quite a lot.
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Yes,of course it was the relatives,sorry about that. Forum driving me mad. ;D ;D ;D ;D Enraged me.
You don´t have to say sorry! :)
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I agree Caroline - Just because we don't agree with his ways of dealing with things does not mean it did not help him.
He does admit his errors in the book several times .
Still found it a strange book though -but I am halfway through reading it again to try and get a grip on why he spends so much time defending Sheila when she was by default found innocent.
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I think 'maybe' he still feel a certain amount of guilt about how things turned out. That's the way I interpenetrated it anyway.
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I have noticed that guilters never talk about how it was decided which window Jeremy left through. ;)
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April,times have changed as regards drugs being obtainable at next to nothing nowadays.Though some,cocaine/heroin,still demand high prices for the " pure " stuff,hence why there are STILL suicides over drug debts,particularly when the barons send out the shooters to retrieve the debt.
In the 80's,drugs weren't as freely available and people DID pay a high price. Drug wars existed in Essex even then.
Lookout, I do appreciate what you say -even though the THOUGHT of owing all that money TERRIFIES me- but you have to recall how large a county is Essex and how much of it abuts London and is accessible by river. One half REALLY didn't/still doesn't know how the other half live so apart from the odd drama involving them, like the Patience murder in Braintree, we knew very little save the odd purple heart which was still doing the rounds.
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I have noticed that guilters never talk about how it was decided which window Jeremy left through. ;)
I think you'll find I mentioned it at length but for the record - I think it's bollocks.
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I think you'll find I mentioned it at length but for the record - I think it's bollocks.
In what way?
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In what way?
The robin story - it's insane.
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The robin story - it's insane.
I know you are talking about the robin thing.
Why do you think they told Cokin this story?
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I have noticed that guilters never talk about how it was decided which window Jeremy left through. ;)
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Jeremy had decided to go to dinner with friends and then onto the Notting Hill carnival when arriving back in England. He told Ann that he was selling everything inside WHF, apart from a few things he was keeping for himself.
The silencer test results were three weeks away & the police had refused to search Jeremy's cottage. Despite the relatives request.
An impatient AE & RB drove to the empty WHF to try an experiment. From outside she tapped a kitchen window. The catch fell into place. Locking the window from outside and making it impossible to use to gain access into WHF from.
The police were contacted.
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Why are you quoting my post without comment, Adam?
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Why are you quoting my post without comment, Adam?
The comment is underneath.
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I know you are talking about the robin thing.
Why do you think they told Cokin this story?
Possibly something like that did happen but the poor thing would have been just trying to get out. Perhaps they really believed it was a message from beyond and Colin was into that kind of thing?
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The comment is underneath.
I was talking about the way it was decided where Jeremy left WHF. Can´t see your comment has anything to do with that.
What do you think of the family deciding that Jeremy exited through the kitchen window because a robin shat in the sill?
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Possibly something like that did happen but the poor thing would have been just trying to get out. Perhaps they really believed it was a message from beyond and Colin was into that kind of thing?
Those relatives don´t strike me as superstitious people!
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I was talking about the way it was decided where Jeremy left WHF. Can´t see your comment has anything to do with that.
What do you think of the family deciding that Jeremy exited through the kitchen window because a robin shat in the sill?
The way it was decided where Jeremy exited WHF was after they did a check on the kitchen window.
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The way it was decided where Jeremy exited WHF was decided after they did a check on the kitchen window.
They told Colin they knew it was that window because a robin shat in the sill. What do you make of that?
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Those relatives don´t strike me as superstitious people!
Nor me, but I suspect they knew Colin was into the esoteric and, whether Jeremy was guilty or innocent, it might have been to their advantage to have Colin on their side as opposed to Jeremy's.
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They told Colin they knew it was that window because a robin shat in the sill. What do you make of that?
Well I do not know how they can work it out from that.
Jeremy was not about, so AE could go to WHF as she pleased. So makes sense, after finding the silencer they should do some window investigating.
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Well I do not know how they can work it out from that.
Jeremy was not about, so AE could go to WHF as she pleased. So makes sense, after finding the silencer they should do some window investigating.
And yet they didn't tell Colin that the window could be locked from outside, they told him the pathetic story of the Robin and when they asked it for a sign, it crapped on the sill. It would have been more apt if it had been a 'bull' ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Well I do not know how they can work it out from that.
Jeremy was not about, so AE could go to WHF as she pleased. So makes sense, after finding the silencer they should do some window investigating.
Neither do I, but that is what they told poor Colin.
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Nor me, but I suspect they knew Colin was into the esoteric and, whether Jeremy was guilty or innocent, it might have been to their advantage to have Colin on their side as opposed to Jeremy's.
I agree - they made it up most likely. If they did, that is actually quite low.
Edit to add, it makes you wonder what else they made up. Either way, this robin story does nothing for their credibility.
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And yet they didn't tell Colin that the window could be locked from outside, they told him the pathetic story of the Robin and when they asked it for a sign, it crapped on the sill. It would have been more apt if it had been a 'bull' ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Or a flying cow,like the proverbial pig,in pigs might fly.
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Or a flying cow,like the proverbial pig,in pigs might fly.
What about the elephant in the room? They were heading towards a zoo, weren't they :D
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What about the elephant in the room? They were heading towards a zoo, weren't they :D
Now that would have been some bombshell. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Now that would have been some bombshell. ;D ;D ;D ;D
Indeed it would, Lookout ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Jeremy had decided to go to dinner with friends and then onto the Notting Hill carnival when arriving back in England. He told Ann that he was selling everything inside WHF, apart from a few things he was keeping for himself.
The silencer test results were three weeks away & the police had refused to search Jeremy's cottage. Despite the relatives request.
An impatient AE & RB drove to the empty WHF to try an experiment. From outside she tapped a kitchen window. The catch fell into place. Locking the window from outside and making it impossible to use to gain access into WHF from.
The police were contacted.
Well in my opinion that does not seem to be the actions of a guilty man? I'm more inclined to believe that a guilty man would hold tight onto the keys to WHF and let no one else in, in fear of them nosing around and finding something? A guilty man in my opinion would rather choose to be the first to enter the house and make double sure to clear up anything that might be remotely connect him to the crime?
But this is not what happened is it. Rather he allowed the keys to be given to the relatives which of course effectively gave them free range over the house to discover what he had allegedly hidden?
Very strange actions for a guilty man in my opinion?
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I second that Mr G. Jeremy certainly wasn't overly concerned as to who entered the farmhouse,which to my mind wasn't either a trait of a greedy person either who'd want everything for themselves,whatever was around. He'd have been quite at liberty in saying," if you don't mind,I'd rather you didn't ".
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Well in my opinion that does not seem to be the actions of a guilty man? I'm more inclined to believe that a guilty man would hold tight onto the keys to WHF and let no one else in, in fear of them nosing around and finding something? A guilty man in my opinion would rather choose to be the first to enter the house and make double sure to clear up anything that might be remotely connect him to the crime?
But this is not what happened is it. Rather he allowed the keys to be given to the relatives which of course effectively gave them free range over the house to discover what he had allegedly hidden?
Very strange actions for a guilty man in my opinion?
Grahame, I hear what you're saying but it sounds as if you're telling us what YOU would do if YOU were guilty. I can go with all that double checking, I'd probably do the same, BUT supposing you were of the mindset that because you'd crossed all the T's and dotted all the I's, NOTHING could go wrong? What, of course, is patently wrong with this is that you could only deal with what YOU regarded as being important because you have NO idea what others might see as being important.
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There was always the chance that someone may have beaten him to it,without his knowledge. At the same time,after the deceased had been moved,he could have even stayed at WHF on the pretext that it might be burgled.That way he could have gone over everything with a fine tooth-comb.
After all,it's alleged that he committed the murders and for that you've got to have a mind of steel,so staying while empty of occupants isn't going to bother anyone,least of all a killer.
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There was always the chance that someone may have beaten him to it,without his knowledge. At the same time,after the deceased had been moved,he could have even stayed at WHF on the pretext that it might be burgled.That way he could have gone over everything with a fine tooth-comb.
After all,it's alleged that he committed the murders and for that you've got to have a mind of steel,so staying while empty of occupants isn't going to bother anyone,least of all a killer.
Lookout, just HOW likely, on a scale of 1 to 10, do you believe that to be? He COULD have done many things, but what you put forward are YOUR uncertainties. They weren't his, therefore he didn't feel the need.
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Lookout, just HOW likely, on a scale of 1 to 10, do you believe that to be? He COULD have done many things, but what you put forward are YOUR uncertainties. They weren't his, therefore he didn't feel the need.
So if he didn't feel the need,his conscience was clear.
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So if he didn't feel the need,his conscience was clear.
Not necessarily, Lookout. It could EQUALLY well mean he didn't see a need because he'd, in his opinion, taken care of everything.
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Not necessarily, Lookout. It could EQUALLY well mean he didn't see a need because he'd, in his opinion, taken care of everything.
How could he think that if he had left a bloodied silencer in the cupboard - must have nagged at him if he did it.
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Grahame, I hear what you're saying but it sounds as if you're telling us what YOU would do if YOU were guilty. I can go with all that double checking, I'd probably do the same, BUT supposing you were of the mindset that because you'd crossed all the T's and dotted all the I's, NOTHING could go wrong? What, of course, is patently wrong with this is that you could only deal with what YOU regarded as being important because you have NO idea what others might see as being important.
But would he have thought that after two shots in an alleged suicide ? I don't think that the "common man" would have thought it would have been accepted that easily . And surely he would have looked at and cleaned the silencer before putting it away . That would have been a basic precaution. Could he have been sure he had left no prints or marks on the windows ? Cant see him reaching back through and wiping with a cloth?
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How could he think that if he had left a bloodied silencer in the cupboard - must have nagged at him if he did it.
I guess if he'd taken on board the fact that the silencer was bloodied he'd have run it under a tap. This is how WE would have seen it. OUR thoughts clearly were not the ones he was having.
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Grahame, I hear what you're saying but it sounds as if you're telling us what YOU would do if YOU were guilty. I can go with all that double checking, I'd probably do the same, BUT supposing you were of the mindset that because you'd crossed all the T's and dotted all the I's, NOTHING could go wrong? What, of course, is patently wrong with this is that you could only deal with what YOU regarded as being important because you have NO idea what others might see as being important.
Not at all April. Even you said you would go along with what I said. So that's at least two people to acknowledge what a guilty person would do. But look at it logically. Would you let anyone else into a house that was going to be yours. I should think that the mindset of any crook or murderer would do this. I should think if you took a vote of everyone on the forum most would say if it were they who committed the crime there will always be that niggle at the back of their minds that tells them to "make sure".
On the other hand the actions of an innocent man would be completely those of Bamber. Completely open with everyone, so much so as to allow all and sundry in the place.
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But would he have thought that after two shots in an alleged suicide ? I don't think that the "common man" would have thought it would have been accepted that easily . And surely he would have looked at and cleaned the silencer before putting it away . That would have been a basic precaution. Could he have been sure he had left no prints or marks on the windows ? Cant see him reaching back through and wiping with a cloth?
Jan, I guess that's something that HAD to be put on the back burner. What was he going to do? It would have been THE most enormous cock up. He couldn't run time backwards. He couldn't run the risk of leaving her. MAY not have liked the idea of her bleeding to death. She HAD to be shot again. It probably caused a wobble. This MAY be the reason for him hiding the silencer without first checking it.
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Not necessarily, Lookout. It could EQUALLY well mean he didn't see a need because he'd, in his opinion, taken care of everything.
And what has happened to the well known saying, "A murderer always returns to the scene of the crime". There is a lot of truth in that. That silencer for instance. Don't you think he would feel the need to make sure that it was completely clean if indeed he had used it?
No doubt if he had returned to the house you might be saying "he obviously returned in order to make sure everything was ok"? The truth is April that to every answer there is a counter answer depending on a person's point of view.
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But would he have thought that after two shots in an alleged suicide ? I don't think that the "common man" would have thought it would have been accepted that easily . And surely he would have looked at and cleaned the silencer before putting it away . That would have been a basic precaution. Could he have been sure he had left no prints or marks on the windows ? Cant see him reaching back through and wiping with a cloth?
I agree, he cannot have felt so sure that everything would go his way easy peasy.
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Not at all April. Even you said you would go along with what I said. So that's at least two people to acknowledge what a guilty person would do. But look at it logically. Would you let anyone else into a house that was going to be yours. I should think that the mindset of any crook or murderer would do this. I should think if you took a vote of everyone on the forum most would say if it were they who committed the crime there will always be that niggle at the back of their minds that tells them to "make sure".
On the other hand the actions of an innocent man would be completely those of Bamber. Completely open with everyone, so much so as to allow all and sundry in the place.
NO, Grahame. You misunderstand me. I'm not looking at guilt versus innocence. I'm looking at a mind set. I'm certain that we're both aware that in a classroom there are children who will admit guilt as soon as the question is asked. These are generally children who have been made to FEEL guilt. The real culprit is capable of just sitting there. If someone else is fool enough to take the blame for their actions, more fool them.
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I agree, he cannot have felt so sure that everything would go his way easy peasy.
How we feel and how we act are often very different.
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How we feel and how we act are often very different.
As Jan pointed out, there was a two shot murder staged as a suicide. The natural thing to assume is that it would make the culprit nervous and on his toes.
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As Jan pointed out, there was a two shot murder staged as a suicide. The natural thing to assume is that it would make the culprit nervous and on his toes.
I can't imagine that it didn't, Alias.
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How we feel and how we act are often very different.
Well I think in that if he is guilty he must be extremely stupid
not to check the house when he had the chance
Tell Julie
Break into the house after the murders
Not think about his behaviour after the murders and how it may be perceived.
Go along with Basil Cock and start thinking about the money and clearing the house.
Of course it could be that if innocent he was just a greedy person and thought financially Sheila had done him a favour .
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Well I think in that if he is guilty he must be extremely stupid
not to check the house when he had the chance
Tell Julie
Break into the house after the murders
Not think about his behaviour after the murders and how it may be perceived.
Go along with Basil Cock and start thinking about the money and clearing the house.
Of course it could be that if innocent he was just a greedy person and thought financially Sheila had done him a favour .
Yes, very stupid. He has just killed his whole family and staged the two shot murder of his sister as a suicide - yet he stands outside with a cop and says he didn´t like his sister much....
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Yes, very stupid. He has just killed his whole family and staged the two shot murder of his sister as a suicide - yet he stands outside with a cop and says he didn´t like his sister much....
Oh yes forgot that bit.Mind you Mike thinks he is innocent because he was not clever enough to do it in the first place. Sighhhhhhhhh
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Well I think in that if he is guilty he must be extremely stupid
not to check the house when he had the chance
Tell Julie
Break into the house after the murders
Not think about his behaviour after the murders and how it may be perceived.
Go along with Basil Cock and start thinking about the money and clearing the house.
Of course it could be that if innocent he was just a greedy person and thought financially Sheila had done him a favour .
Jan, there's no law that says murderers have to be members of MENSA :)
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Yes, very stupid. He has just killed his whole family and staged the two shot murder of his sister as a suicide - yet he stands outside with a cop and says he didn´t like his sister much....
Good bit of reverse psychology, that. It worked, didn't it........................for a while.
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Good bit of reverse psychology, that. It worked, didn't it........................for a while.
If he was using reverse psychology, he would have needed to be smart, right. :P
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If he was using reverse psychology, he would have needed to be smart, right. :P
I guess, within his own capacity, he thought he was :P
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Well I think in that if he is guilty he must be extremely stupid
not to check the house when he had the chance
Tell Julie
Break into the house after the murders
Not think about his behaviour after the murders and how it may be perceived.
Go along with Basil Cock and start thinking about the money and clearing the house.
Of course it could be that if innocent he was just a greedy person and thought financially Sheila had done him a favour .
I do agree Jan, if Jeremy did it he was very careless to the point of stupidity, not much sign of calculated cunning, he may not be the most intelligent person but he has gained some educational qualifications in prison, has he got a degree in forensics? Can't remember but he has obviously got the ability to reason and understand so you would expect he would have been more careful. It's true psychopaths can be over confident and make mistakes but if guilty he did make a few real blunders.
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NO, Grahame. You misunderstand me. I'm not looking at guilt versus innocence. I'm looking at a mind set. I'm certain that we're both aware that in a classroom there are children who will admit guilt as soon as the question is asked. These are generally children who have been made to FEEL guilt. The real culprit is capable of just sitting there. If someone else is fool enough to take the blame for their actions, more fool them.
If you read my post April you will see that it is mindset that I was talking about as well.
Not at all April. Even you said you would go along with what I said. So that's at least two people to acknowledge what a guilty person would do. But look at it logically. Would you let anyone else into a house that was going to be yours. I should think that the mindset of any crook or murdererwould do this. I should think if you took a vote of everyone on the forum most would say if it were they who committed the crime there will always be that niggle at the back of their minds that tells them to "make sure".
On the other hand the actions of an innocent man would be completely those of Bamber. Completely open with everyone, so much so as to allow all and sundry in the place.
You have just posted about guilt.
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Yes, very stupid. He has just killed his whole family and staged the two shot murder of his sister as a suicide - yet he stands outside with a cop and says he didn´t like his sister much....
Cept he thought he had that covered with the story of a call from his father saying Sheila had gone crazy. They didn't know everyone was already dead - so they were his alibi.
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Cept he thought he had that covered with the story of a call from his father saying Sheila had gone crazy. They didn't know everyone was already dead - so they were his alibi.
Yet he never said it was his alibi. It is others who said it was his alibi.
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Yes, very stupid. He has just killed his whole family and staged the two shot murder of his sister as a suicide - yet he stands outside with a cop and says he didn´t like his sister much....
Well he said Sheila would not be pleased to see either the police, or him. So a bit strange that they both ended up outside WHF.
He ' didn't like Sheila & she didn't like him'.
He was distancing himself from the 'gone crazy' 'nutter, looney, do lally, psychotic depressive woman who knew how to use guns & had committed child abuse on the twins'.
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I do agree Jan, if Jeremy did it he was very careless to the point of stupidity, not much sign of calculated cunning, he may not be the most intelligent person but he has gained some educational qualifications in prison, has he got a degree in forensics? Can't remember but he has obviously got the ability to reason and understand so you would expect he would have been more careful. It's true psychopaths can be over confident and make mistakes but if guilty he did make a few real blunders.
Oh I don't know, he almost got away with it and I hear some people still think he's innocent ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Cept he thought he had that covered with the story of a call from his father saying Sheila had gone crazy. They didn't know everyone was already dead - so they were his alibi.
How does saying he didn´t like Sheila serve as an alibi?
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If you read my post April you will see that it is mindset that I was talking about as well.You have just posted about guilt.
Grahame, FEELING guilty and BEING guilty are entirely different.
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Well he said Sheila would not be pleased to see either the police, or him. So a bit strange that they both ended up outside WHF.
He ' didn't like Sheila & she didn't like him'.
He was distancing himself from the 'gone crazy' 'nutter, looney, do lally, psychotic depressive woman who knew how to use guns & had committed child abuse on the twins'.
Think you'll find various versions of Jeremy's interpretation of his relationship with Sheila in police statements, Adam. Don't think any of them are particularly accurate quotes.
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How does saying he didn´t like Sheila serve as an alibi?
It doesn't - I didn't say it did. The fact that he was outside talking to police while they thought Sheila was inside, holding the family hostage does.
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Yet he never said it was his alibi. It is others who said it was his alibi.
It's mentioned on his campaign page. But he doesn't need to mention it for it to be an alibi.
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Oh I don't know, he almost got away with it and I hear some people still think he's innocent ;D ;D ;D ;D
Personally I am unsure there are so many contradictions, can see arguments from both sides .....
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It doesn't - I didn't say it did. The fact that he was outside talking to police while they thought Sheila was inside, holding the family hostage does.
Wouldn´t he have been acting worried instead of bad-mouthing his sister?
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Personally I am unsure there are so many contradictions, can see arguments from both sides .....
MUCH better than having a CLOSED mind.
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Wouldn´t he have been acting worried instead of bad-mouthing his sister?
Not necessarily.
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Think you'll find various versions of Jeremy's interpretation of his relationship with Sheila in police statements, Adam. Don't think any of them are particularly accurate quotes.
Well when campion junior met Jeremy and Sheila in the Bricklayers Arms at Stondon Massey when they were with the Maldon Young Farmers they appeared to get on fine. In fact Sheila made a joke about Tim and Jerry.
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Well when campion junior met Jeremy and Sheila in the Bricklayers Arms at Stondon Massey when they were with the Maldon Young Farmers they appeared to get on fine. In fact Sheila made a joke about Tim and Jerry.
As I said before Colin said Sheila was not always fond of Jeremy - but he thought Jeremy did think the world of his sister. Jean Boutell said she never heard him say a bad word about any of his family
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Wouldn´t he have been acting worried instead of bad-mouthing his sister?
It would have been hypocrisy to say they were close, besides which it could have been disputed by others
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Not necessarily.
I think that is more likely - to act worried, but then, we differ in opinions.
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As I said before Colin said Sheila was not always fond of Jeremy - but he thought Jeremy did think the world of his sister. Jean Boutell said she never heard him say a bad word about any of his family
Yes and I think there are those who don't like those words of hers, but would rather quote hearsay from those who disliked him and probably wanted their names mentioned in books?
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Well when campion junior met Jeremy and Sheila in the Bricklayers Arms at Stondon Massey when they were with the Maldon Young Farmers they appeared to get on fine. In fact Sheila made a joke about Tim and Jerry.
And I'm sure they were getting on fine but it's very difficult to assess how people live their lives, when they're not "on show", from one meeting in which alcohol is involved
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I think that is more likely - to act worried, but then, we differ in opinions.
Not if he's a psychopath.
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Not if he's a psychopath.
Psychopaths are more often than not brilliant actors. They have no feelings, but are good at fooling people into believing they do.
But of course, Jeremy also sucks at being a psychopath. ;)
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And I'm sure they were getting on fine but it's very difficult to assess how people live their lives, when they're not "on show", from one meeting in which alcohol is involved
Well I'm sure there were not that many who thought they didn't get on? I rather think that after the murders occurred there were some who suddenly remembered certain isolated things that happened between them. I'm not convinced that the whole family were at war like some say. People's memories are a bit like microscopes and inflate things beyond that which was actually true?
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Psychopaths are more often than not brilliant actors. They have no feelings, but are good at fooling people into believing they do.
But of course, Jeremy also sucks at being a psychopath. ;)
I don't believe he is. This accusation is just an invention in my opinion in order for some to bolster up their own guilt suspicions.
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Psychopaths are more often than not brilliant actors. They have no feelings, but are good at fooling people into believing they do.
But of course, Jeremy also sucks at being a psychopath. ;)
Bamber is very good at fooling people.
It depends on whether an 'Inheritance killer' can be classed as a psychopath.
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Psychopaths are more often than not brilliant actors. They have no feelings, but are good at fooling people into believing they do.
But of course, Jeremy also sucks at being a psychopath. ;)
Yes, there aren't many psychopaths in the prison system because of how brilliantly they fool everyone. ;D No one said psychopaths don't make mistakes, they just believe they're brilliant, their over confidence tends to get them caught.
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Well I'm sure there were not that many who thought they didn't get on? I rather think that after the murders occurred there were some who suddenly remembered certain isolated things that happened between them. I'm not convinced that the whole family were at war like some say. People's memories are a bit like microscopes and inflate things beyond that which was actually true?
Hey Grahame, I ENTIRELY AGREE. They were a family. On a scale of 1 to 10 dysfunction, I'd say 3-5 which puts them pretty close to mean average in my book. They had ups and down like other families. They undoubtedly experienced warmth and companionship at other times. What they WEREN'T was 100% either way.
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Bamber is very good at fooling people.
It depends on whether an 'Inheritance killer' can be classed as a psychopath.
In my opinion, there is more to those murders than inheritance - they come across as rage killings. If Jeremy did commit them, he was livid.
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Yes, there aren't many psychopaths in the prison system because of how brilliantly they fool everyone. ;D No one said psychopaths don't make mistakes, they just believe they're brilliant, their over confidence tends to get them caught.
So it is common for them to say to cops that they don´t like their victims much - the ones they staged as suicides?
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In my opinion, there is more to those murders than inheritance - they come across as rage killings. If Jeremy did commit them, he was livid.
Well Bamber had no choice but to brutally beat Neville after he got downstairs. Every other bullet was clinically shot into the heads of June, Sheila and the twins.
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I'd have put the murders as frenzied,an out of the mind and deranged killer. Is Jeremy it ? Deranged ?
Would it not have shown up in 30 years ? I'm well aware that a person can hide their " true " persona,but for this length of time ?
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Bamber is very good at fooling people.
It depends on whether an 'Inheritance killer' can be classed as a psychopath.
Perhaps you could prove that point Adam about Bamber being good at fooling people? It that your own opinion, or did another tell you?
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In my opinion, there is more to those murders than inheritance - they come across as rage killings. If Jeremy did commit them, he was livid.
If Jeremy had grown up having his needs denied because Sheila knew better than he how to get HER needs met, there's a strong possibility he'd have internalized all the resentment he felt until such time as it could no longer be contained.
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Perhaps you could prove that point Adam about Bamber being good at fooling people? It that your own opinion, or did another tell you?
He fooled the police.
And Bob Woffinden. Who called him a very charming psychopath.
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I'd have put the murders as frenzied,an out of the mind and deranged killer. Is Jeremy it ? Deranged ?
Would it not have shown up in 30 years ? I'm well aware that a person can hide their " true " persona,but for this length of time ?
I agree it certainly appears to be a rage killing, it could have been staged as such but it's pretty convincing. He had never shown any sign before prison either, lookout, it usually shows up in relationships even if hidden from general view but no reports of any violence by girlfriends or casual partners.
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Well Bamber had no choice but to brutally beat Neville after he got downstairs. Every other bullet was clinically shot into the heads of June, Sheila and the twins.
Adam the human body is much more frail than you may think. It is incredibly easy to kill somebody with much less force that you would believe. I knew someone whose Aunt was murdered in her house in Tiptree. She was strangled by her gardener for some reason and he remarked on how quickly she died and with not much effort. I don't go along with the trial judge who apparently said that Ralph put up a tremendous fight. I believe he was disabled by the bullets first and that it was Sheila who rained down those blows upon a very weak Ralph.
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I agree it certainly appears to be a rage killing, it could have been staged as such but it's pretty convincing. He had never shown any sign before prison either, lookout, it usually shows up in relationships even if hidden from general view but no reports of any violence by girlfriends or casual partners.
I will find the inheritance killers thread for you.
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This is how it bubbled up inside Sheila after she'd told the world and its wife that she didn't get on with her mother and hadn't done for years,after having her morals scrutinised and questioned. And being tightly controlled. Something's bound to give eventually.
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If Jeremy had grown up having his needs denied because Sheila knew better than he how to get HER needs met, there's a strong possibility he'd have internalized all the resentment he felt until such time as it could no longer be contained.
Its not normal behaviour though. Am sure plenty of siblings may feel like that but they don't react like that.
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I agree it certainly appears to be a rage killing, it could have been staged as such but it's pretty convincing. He had never shown any sign before prison either, lookout, it usually shows up in relationships even if hidden from general view but no reports of any violence by girlfriends or casual partners.
Not even Mugford brought up anything that pointed towards psychopathy. When she tried to smother him with a pillow, he wasn´t violent with her, just twisted her arm to stop her.
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I will find the inheritance killers thread for you.
Thanks Adam but don't need it have read . About inheritance killers :)
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So it is common for them to say to cops that they don´t like their victims much - the ones they staged as suicides?
I already answered that.
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I already answered that.
As I said, we differ in opinions.
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Not even Mugford brought up anything that pointed towards psychopathy. When she tried to smother him with a pillow, he wasn´t violent with her, just twisted her arm to stop her.
Except to say he plotted the murder of his family.
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I believe it is more likely that Bamber had and still has narcissistic immunity.
Believing by sheer force of personality he will win. Saying on audio 'I cannot believe I won't win this'.
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Except to say he plotted the murder of his family.
And she listened to that for a year without warning the family. It is a bit hard to believe.
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Its not normal behaviour though. Am sure plenty of siblings may feel like that but they don't react like that.
It certainly doesn't fall within accepted parameters.
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And she listened to that for a year without warning the family. It is a bit hard to believe.
She did not believe he would do anything.
I do believe massacres of father, mother, sister and nephews in one night, are rare.
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She did not believe he would do anything.
I do believe massacres of father, mother, sister and nephews in one night, are rare.
She didn´t even believe him when he called her and said, it´s now or never? Or when he called her later that night - go back to bed.
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She didn´t even believe him when he called her and said, it´s now or never? Or when he called her later that night - go back to bed.
I do struggle with that conversation, how can that be counted as proof of anything it doesn't make any sense.
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She did not believe he would do anything.
I do believe massacres of father, mother, sister and nephews in one night, are rare.
Yes,indeed rare for someone who's remained level-headed and focussed,but not rare for someone who carried out Gods' wishes !
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Yes,indeed rare for someone who's remained level-headed and focussed,but not rare for someone who carried out Gods' wishes !
And maybe not for those who believe their actions are justified.
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I believe it is more likely that Bamber had and still has narcissistic immunity.
Believing by sheer force of personality he will win. Saying on audio 'I cannot believe I won't win this'.
What he actually said was, "It never entered into my mind that I would go to prison". An innocent would of course believe in British Justice. But in my opinion it was exactly that which let him down by accepting dubious things as evidence, thus creating a miscarriage of justice.
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And maybe not for those who believe their actions are justified.
Sheila thought they were justified. Well and truly.
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Sheila thought they were justified. Well and truly.
Without knowing how Sheila was at the time there is no certainty. None of us is a mindreader.
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Sheila thought they were justified. Well and truly.
Yes I'm afraid the smoking gun does lie with Sheila in my opinion.
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Without knowing how Sheila was at the time there is no certainty. None of us is a mindreader.
Well that is not exactly true is it? As there are several witnesses who testified to her odd behavior just before the murders.
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Well that is not exactly true is it? As there are several witnesses who testified to her odd behavior just before the murders.
The only JUST before would be PB who said she was quiet. Jeremy, I believe, said she was unresponsive but doesn't clarify. I think the other witnesses saw her several hours previous to the murders.
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The only JUST before would be PB who said she was quiet. Jeremy, I believe, said she was unresponsive but doesn't clarify. I think the other witnesses saw her several hours previous to the murders.
what about the man from the electricity board? When was that ?
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Also the Greek Orthodox Church or whatever it was. Sheila was like a banshee coming out of there.
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Yes I'm afraid the smoking gun does lie with Sheila in my opinion.
Well, it did after Jeremy put it there ;D ;D ;D ;D (soz, couldn't resist)
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what about the man from the electricity board? When was that ?
I THINK -but don't quote me :D- that the alleged incidents, the other being her visit to the monastery were the previous day, but even if they weren't, they were SEVERAL hours prior to the murders.
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Also the Greek Orthodox Church or whatever it was. Sheila was like a banshee coming out of there.
THAT may have been hearsay.
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Several hours,several days,it's clear that the woman was distraught with illness and completely out of her mind. As Dr.Ferguson had said,her condition had deteriorated,which is very very serious in one with a psychiatric condition.
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I THINK -but don't quote me :D- that the alleged incidents, the other being her visit to the monastery were the previous day, but even if they weren't, they were SEVERAL hours prior to the murders.
The point is that she did have episodes where people were afraid of her. She had one a day or perhaps hours before the murders, then was calm. Who is to say she couldn´t have an episode again - clearly her meds weren´t working.
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Several hours,several days,it's clear that the woman was distraught with illness and completely out of her mind. As Dr.Ferguson had said,her condition had deteriorated,which is very very serious in one with a psychiatric condition.
Sorry Lookout. I'm being unnecessarily flippant here. I have never tried to undermine the seriousness of Sheila's illness. I feel very strongly that she was let down.
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The point is that she did have episodes where people were afraid of her. She had one a day or perhaps hours before the murders, then was calm. Who is to say she couldn´t have an episode again - clearly her meds weren´t working.
Just because she was quiet it doesn't mean she wasn't psychotic, we know when she had her episode with Freddie she alternated between violent hysteria and quiet calm, also it's often a warning sign before a severe and violent episode for someone to be very withdrawn.
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THAT may have been hearsay.
It would be so valuable to know the source of this . I will do some searching .
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It would be so valuable to know the source of this . I will do some searching .
Can't remember where that came from Jan but have read it somewhere. :-\
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It would be so valuable to know the source of this . I will do some searching .
I'm only going by what Scipio said. Read into it what you like ;D
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It would be so valuable to know the source of this . I will do some searching .
Have found a document in thread 'Monastery Link' Jan can't do links my laptops crashed but it is an account from a delivery man who claims to have seen Sheila in a distraught state leaving the monastery.
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Well, it did after Jeremy put it there ;D ;D ;D ;D (soz, couldn't resist)
There is absolutely no evidence that Bamber placed the gun on Sheila.
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Maggie ask Jan to look and see if Julie going to Australia is in there as well ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Maggie ask Jan to look and see if Julie going to Australia is in there as well ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Think You've just asked her but she's too busy delving to see the posts ;)
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There is absolutely no evidence that Bamber placed the gun on Sheila.
There's no evidence that Sheila wasn't dead when Jeremy was sitting in the police car either. I reckon she was drifting in and out of consciousness before the team broke in. After the first ( her suicide shot ) went awry as it hit the jawbone.
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There's no evidence that Sheila wasn't dead when Jeremy was sitting in the police car either. I reckon she was drifting in and out of consciousness before the team broke in. After the first ( her suicide shot ) went awry as it hit the jawbone.
I am fast coming to the conclusion that the police accidentally shot Sheila and that is the reason things don't add up. Because of the lengths they went to to cover up the real story? I don't care what excuses people give for the police alleged incompetence, Things just don't add up in my opinion?
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There's no evidence that Sheila wasn't dead when Jeremy was sitting in the police car either. I reckon she was drifting in and out of consciousness before the team broke in. After the first ( her suicide shot ) went awry as it hit the jawbone.
Or that she was alive.
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Or that she was alive.
That is a negative and only throws the question back to you. Let us just say there is no evidence that she was dead or alive. Therefore Bamber should not have been tried for murder.
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That is a negative and only throws the question back to you. Let us just say there is no evidence that she was dead or alive. Therefore Bamber should not have been tried for murder.
If that were the only aspect to consider, that would be fine, but it's not.
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If that were the only aspect to consider, that would be fine, but it's not.
Its interesting that you say that because I was looking through the 2002 appeal last night.
And what struck me was that although they admitted the Jury were not aware of quite a lot of information - it seemed to me they were saying - that on its own would not have affected the jurys decision . But they said that several times - and I wonder if you added up all the little bits that the jury were not aware of if it would have swayed them ?
I am not commenting on guilt or innocence here - but we are asked to look at the bigger picture which apparently proves guilt - but when it comes to innocence apparently the bigger picture does not seem to count?
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Its interesting that you say that because I was looking through the 2002 appeal last night.
And what struck me was that although they admitted the Jury were not aware of quite a lot of information - it seemed to me they were saying - that on its own would not have affected the jurys decision . But they said that several times - and I wonder if you added up all the little bits that the jury were not aware of if it would have swayed them ?
I am not commenting on guilt or innocence here - but we are asked to look at the bigger picture which apparently proves guilt - but when it comes to innocence apparently the bigger picture does not seem to count?
Let's put it this way Jan. I suspect if the same case came up today with the same stuff put up as evidence that Bamber would be found not guilty.
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Its interesting that you say that because I was looking through the 2002 appeal last night.
And what struck me was that although they admitted the Jury were not aware of quite a lot of information - it seemed to me they were saying - that on its own would not have affected the jurys decision . But they said that several times - and I wonder if you added up all the little bits that the jury were not aware of if it would have swayed them ?
I am not commenting on guilt or innocence here - but we are asked to look at the bigger picture which apparently proves guilt - but when it comes to innocence apparently the bigger picture does not seem to count?
It counts for both but depending on which side you're on, different things will seem important.
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I am fast coming to the conclusion that the police accidentally shot Sheila and that is the reason things don't add up. Because of the lengths they went to to cover up the real story? I don't care what excuses people give for the police alleged incompetence, Things just don't add up in my opinion?
You've only to compare the dried,cracked blood around Sheilas' mouth,to that of the " fresher " blood on the second neck injury to notice the difference in the times of having been shot,as the warmth from her body would have dried that which was at the corners of her mouth,yet the neck wound seemed more fresh in comparison.
Sheila,as I explained yesterday,could have been in and out of consciousness after the first neck/jaw wound,then received the final shot some time later as the gun was being moved. An accident gone wrong, by an officer who'd not realised that it was a semi-automatic rifle ready to go off. Allegedly !
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The blazing row was at a caravan site business meeting. So must have been about this.
Bamber wanted more of a say in this business. Running the caravan site would mean he could wear his nice suits and avoid long hours working on the farm. But Neville said he had no business sense.
Bamber had previously rejected a suggestion that Sheila have shares in the caravan site. His WS says there was talk about Sheila moving into his newly decorated cottage. Could it be that Neville had decided to also give Sheila some caravan site shares ?
Or had Bamber made a suggestion on how it should be managed, which was rejected by Neville ?
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At least Jeremy didn't give his dad a black eye like the relative did ! Thumping an old man-despicable !!
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The blazing row was at a caravan site business meeting. So must have been about this.
Bamber wanted more of a say in this business. Running the caravan site would mean he could wear his nice suits and avoid long hours working on the farm. But Neville said he had no business sense.
Bamber had previously rejected a suggestion that Sheila have shares in the caravan site. His WS says there was talk about Sheila moving into his newly decorated cottage. Could it be that Neville had decided to also give Sheila some caravan site shares ?
Or had Bamber made a suggestion on how it should be managed, which was rejected by Neville ?
As no one knows what the argument was about (or if it even happened) for sure, so you can speculate until the cows come home.
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Speculating again, Jeremy reluctantly returned to work for Neville as a last resort.
He was no doubt hoping for a bigger share in the caravan site. Perhaps even be in charge of it. Avoiding long hours on the farm and being able to wear a nice suit.
But no, he was sent to work the farm by Neville.
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What a bitter person you are ! Why's that ?
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Speculating again, Jeremy reluctantly returned to work for Neville as a last resort.
He was no doubt hoping for a bigger share in the caravan site. Perhaps even be in charge of it. Avoiding long hours on the farm and being able to wear a nice suit.
But no, he was sent to work the farm by Neville.
For someone who displays zero knowledge of how the mind works you're certainly very brazen when it comes to attempts at being psychic.
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Speculating again, Jeremy reluctantly returned to work for Neville as a last resort.
He was no doubt hoping for a bigger share in the caravan site. Perhaps even be in charge of it. Avoiding long hours on the farm and being able to wear a nice suit.
But no, he was sent to work the farm by Neville.
Again begrudging Jeremy, here on an entirely hypothetical ground. Making something up, then going into a fit about it.
Personal.
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There was more than likely a blazing row on the night of the murders after June had told Sheila that she was an unfit mother !!
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Again begrudging Jeremy, here on an entirely hypothetical ground. Making something up, then going into a fit about it.
Personal.
This whole thread is guess work.
AE said there was a blazing row between Bamber & Neville. Just before the massacre. They nearly came to blows.
So I was asking people what the blazing row may have been about. As well as giving my opinion in the post above.
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This whole thread is guess work.
AE said there was a blazing row between Bamber & Neville. Just before the massacre. They nearly came to blows.
So I was asking people what the blazing row may have been about. As well as giving my opinion in the post above.
In order to give ANY opinion it's necessary to know what was AE's take on what constituted "blazing".
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This whole thread is guess work.
AE said there was a blazing row between Bamber & Neville. Just before the massacre. They nearly came to blows.
So I was asking people what the blazing row may have been about. As well as giving my opinion in the post above.
Even your opinion was guesswork.
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In order to give ANY opinion it's necessary to know what was AE's take on what constituted "blazing".
They nearly came to blows. Is that 'blazing' enough for you ?
If that is what they were like in front of other people, imagine what they would be like in private.
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Speculating again, Jeremy reluctantly returned to work for Neville as a last resort.
He was no doubt hoping for a bigger share in the caravan site. Perhaps even be in charge of it. Avoiding long hours on the farm and being able to wear a nice suit.
But no, he was sent to work the farm by Neville.
His clothes again. You seem obsessed with his clothes.
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They nearly came to blows. Is that 'blazing' enough for you ?
If that is what they were like in front of other people, imagine what they would be like in private.
No Adam, in AE's OPINION, they nearly came to blows. Her opinion would be based on all the other arguments she'd ever witnessed OR been involved in.
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His clothes again. You seem obsessed with his clothes.
Rather like Jeremy was. Not knocking him. Nothing wrong with being smart. I have lots of nice suits and shoes myself.
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Rather like Jeremy was. Not knocking him. Nothing wrong with being smart. I have lots of nice suits and shoes myself.
Do you work on a farm?
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No Adam, in AE's OPINION, they nearly came to blows. Her opinion would be based on all the other arguments she'd ever witnessed OR been involved in.
So you're not accepting they nearly came to blows and had a blazing row. Just before the massacre. Although a person put this in a Witness Statement ?
Well then don't comment on what it could have been about.
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So you're not accepting they nearly came to blows and had a blazing row. Just before the massacre. Although a person put this in a Witness Statement ?
Well then don't comment on what it could have been about.
It depends what the row was about?
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It depends what the row was about?
That was the reason I created the thread.
Just before Neville was shot eight times and brutally beaten. What do you think the 'blazing' argument could have been about ?
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That was the reason I created the thread.
Just before Neville was shot eight times and brutally beaten. What do you think the 'blazing' argument could have been about ?
But it's a question no one can answer! ;D
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So you're not accepting they nearly came to blows and had a blazing row. Just before the massacre. Although a person put this in a Witness Statement ?
Well then don't comment on what it could have been about.
But it seems that YOU accept, carte blanche, what AE says, without knowing what she means. You even appear to believe it isn't possible to "get it wrong" in a WS.
As to what an alleged argument might have been about, I couldn't POSSIBLY comment, it would be arrogant.
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But it's a question no one can answer! ;D
Isn´t it the rule with most of Adam´s questions? No one can answer them, because we weren´t there. Then, after having asked the question a gazillion times at the end of each and every post, he gives his "answer."
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But it's a question no one can answer! ;D
It's called discussion. And opinion.
There are some things we do know about it. It was at the caravan site meeting. So was about business.
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Isn´t it the rule with most of Adam´s questions? No one can answer them, because we weren´t there. Then, after having asked the question a gazillion times at the end of each and every post, he gives his "answer."
And it's SOOOOO easy to give the right answer to questions that no one can answer. ;) Still, if it's the ONLY way of giving it??
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Isn´t it the rule with most of Adam´s questions? No one can answer them, because we weren´t there. Then, after having asked the question a gazillion times at the end of each and every post, he gives his "answer."
Feel free to create a thread. If you do not like mine.
The only thing I recall you doing, is posting Julie's NOTW article on here. Several times. Strange actions for someone 'undecided'.
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Feel free to create a thread. If you do not like mine.
The only thing I recall you doing, is posting Julie's NOTW article on here. Several times. Strange actions for someone 'undecided'.
It's usually accepted that it's FAR better to do NOTHING really well, than to do SOMETHING extremely badly :)
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Feel free to create a thread. If you do not like mine.
The only thing I recall you doing, is posting Julie's NOTW article on here. Several times. Strange actions for someone 'undecided'.
I have created 58 threads. You have created 208 in a much shorter time span, so you win, what you win I don´t know, and I don´t care!
April has created 37
Aunt Agatha 6
Bambergate 42
Caroline 4
curiousessex 44
Dan Straker 2
Gemma 1
gringo 5
haughton 12
HMEssex 14
JackiePreece 159
Janet (Formerly known as Takeshi) 7
Jan 28
Jo 3
John 3
jon 3
Lookout 18
maggie 21
mat 28
mertol22 61
mike tesko 2007
Mr. Gee 34
neil 7
ngb1066 26
Nickos 8
nugnug 214
originalsin 0
Patti 145
petey 8
Reader 10
Roch 141
scipio_usmc 20
stephanie hall 29
Steve_uk 14
susan 4
tyler 40
So - what does this mean? Nothing. It doesn´t say anything about how active a member is or what value their postings have.
Some of the numbers are misleading, since some, including me, have left and come back, so our numbers are much lower than they should be.
BTW, looks like I am somewhere in the middle - high end if I could count my threads created as "abs".
Please stop going on about how many threads people create - it means nada. Happy to help! ;D
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I have created 58 threads. You have created 208 in a much shorter time span, so you win, what you win I don´t know, and I don´t care!
April has created 37
Aunt Agatha 6
Bambergate 42
Caroline 4
curiousessex 44
Dan Straker 2
Gemma 1
gringo 5
haughton 12
HMEssex 14
JackiePreece 159
Janet (Formerly known as Takeshi) 7
Jo 3
John 3
jon 3
Lookout 18
maggie 21
mat 28
mertol22 61
mike tesko 2007
Mr. Gee 34
neil 7
ngb1066 26
Nickos 8
nugnug 214
originalsin 0
Patti 145
petey 8
Reader 10
Roch 141
scipio_usmc 20
stephanie hall 29
Steve_uk 14
susan 4
tyler 40
So - what does this mean? Nothing. It doesn´t say anything about how active a member is or what value their postings have.
Some of the numbers are misleading, since some, including me, have left and come back, so our numbers are much lower than they should be.
BTW, looks like I am somewhere in the middle - high end if I could count my threads created as "abs".
Please stop going on about how many threads people create - it means nada. Happy to help! ;D
Alias!!!! That's BRILLIANT!!! WELL DONE!!! Perhaps THAT will stop his bragging.
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Go to the top of the class for taking the trouble,Alias. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D-------------- ::) It seems to matter in one case.
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;D
Overlooked Jan, have added her to the list - 28 threads. Sorry Jan, and sorry anyone else I might have overlooked. I went through the list rather quickly. ;D
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I do not recall any of you're threads. Apart from the 'Purpose of guilters' thread. Maybe you do not recall mine, although you post on most of them. Such as this one.
Anyway I have just created a thread - 'Stan Jones contaminating the silencer'.
This is a new and very serious accusation from another poster. And needs to be discussed fully. If correct, Bamber must be released.
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I do not recall any of you're threads. Apart from the 'Purpose of guilters' thread. Maybe you do not recall mine, although you post on most of them.
Anyway I have just created a thread - 'Stan Jones contaminating the silencer'.
This is a new and very serious accusation from another poster. And needs to be discussed fully. If correct, Bamber must be released.
Your problem. The numbers speak for themselves.
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That's not what I meant Jan. I meant IF he brought the tractor back at 10:30(ish), he wouldn't want it known. When asked about it, he didn't want to answer and it may be because he didn't know if he'd been seen - ie. the tenants at the cottages might have identified him as the driver so he wanted to be sure why the question was being asked. When he found out it was just something Julie mentioned, he answered with no problems. Whether the tractor was old or new isn't the issue, it's what he thought he was being asked.
I can see why he didn't answer 'some' questions because Jones kept repeating things, however, the tractor question is different, it was benign on the surface, even Jones was surprised when he said 'no comment'.
I think you could be onto something here.