Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Adam on December 12, 2014, 01:57:AM
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Jeremy's supporters often say he would not have shot her twice.
However if the first bullet did not kill her, he would have no choice. Not knowing how long she would stay alive for after the first bullet. She may even make a full recovery.
Sheila was certainly shot after June & Neville. Both needing a total of 15 bullets & in Neville's case, a brutal beating as well. So he would have realised how little power the rifle had and that killing Sheila with one bullet is unlikely. But surely three bullets was too many. So two bullets were needed, the second one luckily being fatal.
He could not beat Sheila to death after she stayed alive after the first bullet. People would ask how Sheila shot herself after being given a beating.
Anyway it is just as unlikely for Sheila to shoot herself twice when committing suicide. The pathologist at trial saying Sheila would not have been able to fire the second shot.
Do other people agree the two bullet defence of Jeremy is weak ?
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To be fair, it only needs to be possible for a person to shoot themselves twice and experts have agreed that it is possible.
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http://youtu.be/_LNqtwFjFBM
Is the statement at 4.50 correct ?
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2 bullets----------1),she was shot at. 2) was self-inflicted ( possibly ) Jeremy was nowhere near !!
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He was tucked up in bed with his teddy bear.
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Don't be funny!!
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Jeremy's supporters often say he would not have shot her twice.
However if the first bullet did not kill her, he would have no choice. Not knowing how long she would stay alive for after the first bullet. She may even make a full recovery.
Sheila was certainly shot after June & Neville. Both needing a total of 15 bullets & in Neville's case, a brutal beating as well. So he would have realised how little power the rifle had and that killing Sheila with one bullet is unlikely. But surely three bullets was too many. So two bullets were needed, the second one luckily being fatal.
He could not beat Sheila to death after she stayed alive after the first bullet. People would ask how Sheila shot herself after being given a beating.
Anyway it is just as unlikely for Sheila to shoot herself twice when committing suicide. The pathologist at trial saying Sheila would not have been able to fire the second shot.
Do other people agree the two bullet defence of Jeremy is weak ?
I dont know where you got that idea from . If he was faking suicide and the first shot did not kill her waht choice did he have .
But it was proven that she could have shot herself twice , it is not uncommon in suicides and because of the type of weapon and the affect of the first shot it was possible.
So I dont know what your point is?
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The question is, would Jeremy have had the knowledge that multiple shot suicides do ocurr, and would he have had the NERVE to just go on and stage it as a suicide? Call the police with a made up story that Nevill had called him, thus painting himself into a corner. Also carelessly putting the silencer with blood, paint and hair on it in the cupboard further incriminating himself.
Those things do not add up for me.
If Jeremy had to shoot Sheila twice for her to die, his best option would not have been going on with his plan of staging it as a suicide. It would logically hav been to either stage a break-in, or simply just going out the door, leaving it open - and not call the police at all.
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I would think that had Jeremy shot Sheila twice he would have been a worried Jeremy.
If he was guilty he had time on his hands and could have made it look like a robbery gone wrong, but that was not the case.
It has been mentioned that the rifle may have gone off on its own after the first shot. I find this difficult to believe because we know that at some point Sheila sat up on her right hand side or had been on her side at some point. She certainly did not stand up, nor did she crawl from the kitchen to the main bedroom. I find the latter extremely unlikely, especially as she would have had to crawl with a rifle in tow.
I constantly ask myself why Sheila was in the main bedroom had she committed suicide. Is it likely that she was not aware of her actions and was on the outside looking in? Was she under a delusion that she was saving her family and therefore was not killing them? Was she thinking she was doing gods work?
Another thing that bothers me is the position of June. June was not walking towards the door, June fell backwards into the doorway; you can see the blood trace marks on the door from the wound from her shoulder and slipped down. June must have been facing her killer, for she was standing at the foot of the bed. Sheila was also at the foot of the bed. If you stand both women up onto their feet they must have been a few feet from each other.
As Neville entered the bedroom after making a phone call to Jeremy he would have been shot 4 times.
Yes, the magazine had run out, 7 shots to June 4 shots to Neville making 11 shots in all and using the one in the breach. If this was Sheila she would have to refill the magazine, if this is the case then she was thinking. Being a fit young woman, she could have reached the kitchen before Neville, for his injuries would have slowed him down.
Now we have 11 shots fired (this is only a scenario) quickly Sheila could have managed to load the magazine with 4 bullets before Neville go to the kitchen. They could have had a scuffle at the sink, but NB was weaker and Sheila was stronger. At this point Neville's watch fell off his injured left arm and got kicked under the mat. Was the watch mechanism broken? There are no documents that I have seen mentioning this.
Having been pushed back NB fell onto the chair knocking it over onto its side as he fell. We know the rest.
I just feel for all those that were murdered and that includes Sheila. How can anyone be 100% certain it was Sheila that did it or 100% it was Jeremy. In my opinion this case will never be solved for the only evidence that was available was destroyed as DNA profiling was just about to explode. Why? when a man was still claiming to be innocent and still is. :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\
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the positioning you mention is interesting. could she have run upstairs whilst NB was on the phone - shot the twins then gone in through the interconnecting door and then shot June? Then NB came to the bedroom door hearing the shots?Also we can not assume all the shots happened at once? They may have already been dead when she then shot them again?
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the positioning you mention is interesting. could she have run upstairs whilst NB was on the phone - shot the twins then gone in through the interconnecting door and then shot June? Then NB came to the bedroom door hearing the shots?Also we can not assume all the shots happened at once? They may have already been dead when she then shot them again?
Hi Jan. If she shot the twins first then she would have had to reload. 9 shots? leaving a possible 2 left if the magazine was full. She had no pockets and I think it would be unlikely that she carried them in her spare hand.
Neville could have been woken at that point though and had followed Sheila back down stairs completely unaware that the children had been shot. He could have had an argument with Sheila who had the rifle already in her hands and was refusing to give that rifle up. He then called Jeremy for help this angered her like it did when Freddie phoned for help and she cut him off and ran upstairs with the rifle and he raced after her and just plonked the phone down leaving it engaged. She could have then fired at her mother and then at her father as he entered the bedroom. NB then turned round to get downstairs and she raced past him to reload, but before she could fully load they had a scuffle at the sink....Just my theories Jan......could be totally wrong...But it might be better than this one.
Jeremy put on his wetsuit and peddled through the back wacks to WHF. He then entered the house via the downstairs bathroom window. He collected the rifle with silencer from the den or a hidden place somewhere else in the house and placed the fully loaded magazine into it, or it could have already been in. He crept upstairs entered the children's room and fired 9 shots. He then crept downstairs to reload thus giving him 11 more bullets to fire. He then entered the main bedroom and shot his mother several times, then shot his father as he managed to get out of bed and into a standing position. Jeremy then managed to fire two shots to Neville's jaw. (important point coming up) NB then had to get passed Jeremy so that he could shot him from the back for the shots to his shoulder and arm were fired when NB had his back to the shooter. JB then rushed past him shoving NB towards the wall where there were blood trace evidence. He got to the kitchen NB tried to get the rifle of him they had this almighty fight at the kitchen sink. NB then had 4 more shoots and was beaten over the head with the rifle. JB then went back upstairs woke Sheila up and led her to the main bedroom she was told to lie down and he shot her twice. He then showered in his wetsuit, phoned home, swapped the phones placed the silencer back into the cupboard, went back into the kitchen bolted the kitchen door then climbed out of the kitchen window because he knew how to lock it. He ten peddled home via the sea wall and got out of the suit hung it up. The invented a call from his father.
Which sounds the most far fetched?
Sorry about the length of this post Jan....I'm not a chatter box in real life. ;D ;D ;D
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Patti,did you miss the bit where Colin had said in his book that there was an empty box of ammunition in the bedroom,besides the rifle and the bible ?. I wonder why that find was never mentioned ?
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Hi Jan. If she shot the twins first then she would have had to reload. 9 shots? leaving a possible 2 left if the magazine was full. She had no pockets and I think it would be unlikely that she carried them in her spare hand.
Neville could have been woken at that point though and had followed Sheila back down stairs completely unaware that the children had been shot. He could have had an argument with Sheila who had the rifle already in her hands and was refusing to give that rifle up. He then called Jeremy for help this angered her like it did when Freddie phoned for help and she cut him off and ran upstairs with the rifle and he raced after her and just plonked the phone down leaving it engaged. She could have then fired at her mother and then at her father as he entered the bedroom. NB then turned round to get downstairs and she raced past him to reload, but before she could fully load they had a scuffle at the sink....Just my theories Jan......could be totally wrong...But it might be better than this one.
Jeremy put on his wetsuit and peddled through the back wacks to WHF. He then entered the house via the downstairs bathroom window. He collected the rifle with silencer from the den or a hidden place somewhere else in the house and placed the fully loaded magazine into it, or it could have already been in. He crept upstairs entered the children's room and fired 9 shots. He then crept downstairs to reload thus giving him 11 more bullets to fire. He then entered the main bedroom and shot his mother several times, then shot his father as he managed to get out of bed and into a standing position. Jeremy then managed to fire two shots to Neville's jaw. (important point coming up) NB then had to get passed Jeremy so that he could shot him from the back for the shots to his shoulder and arm were fired when NB had his back to the shooter. JB then rushed past him shoving NB towards the wall where there were blood trace evidence. He got to the kitchen NB tried to get the rifle of him they had this almighty fight at the kitchen sink. NB then had 4 more shoots and was beaten over the head with the rifle. JB then went back upstairs woke Sheila up and led her to the main bedroom she was told to lie down and he shot her twice. He then showered in his wetsuit, phoned home, swapped the phones placed the silencer back into the cupboard, went back into the kitchen bolted the kitchen door then climbed out of the kitchen window because he knew how to lock it. He ten peddled home via the sea wall and got out of the suit hung it up. The invented a call from his father.
Which sounds the most far fetched?
Sorry about the length of this post Jan....I'm not a chatter box in real life. ;D ;D ;D
yes I know which scenario I follow.
I think we can not assume anything. We can not assume she fired all the shots into the twins at once . Because we have to be careful not to necessarily apply logic to her actions - she may have only shot them once each before the next attack. I know if there was only one gun used she would have had to re-load but it may not have been at a point that she was under pressure?
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Patti,did you miss the bit where Colin had said in his book that there was an empty box of ammunition in the bedroom,besides the rifle and the bible ?. I wonder why that find was never mentioned ?
one of the first things I queried on here was the picture of the bedroom window because it looks as if there is a box or book in the window. Could be where the ammunition came from?
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one of the first things I queried on here was the picture of the bedroom window because it looks as if there is a box or book in the window. Could be where the ammunition came from?
It's a possibility.
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Box or book here: (+ a number of other items)
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4542;image)
But not here:
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4095;image)
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yes I know which scenario I follow.
I think we can not assume anything. We can not assume she fired all the shots into the twins at once . Because we have to be careful not to necessarily apply logic to her actions - she may have only shot them once each before the next attack. I know if there was only one gun used she would have had to re-load but it may not have been at a point that she was under pressure?
You may well be right Jan. Although, It has been said that some of bullets were fired in succession to one of the children as it formed an arch. The other thing i have noticed with the bullets though, is this.
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The box had contained 10 bullets.
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You may well be right Jan. Although, It has been said that some of bullets were fired in succession to one of the children as it formed an arch. The other thing i have noticed with the bullets though, is this.
sorry was there a further comment to come on that ? :)
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sorry was there a further comment to come on that ? :)
Having a blond moment Jan. :-[
Yes there was. If you notice the shots appears to be doubled. Look closely at the shots to NB. Did the weapon malfunction and produce two shots at a time.
If you look at June this does not happen, but if you look at the children it does. It might be nothing...just though I would mention it. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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What is shots ?
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What is shots ?
I mean shots :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[
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I mean shots :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[
Aww yes,I know. Thanks for the use of your rubber. ;D
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Aww yes,I know. Thanks for the use of your rubber. ;D
Good job I have one hahahahaha ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Having a blond moment Jan. :-[
Yes there was. If you notice the shots appears to be doubled. Look closely at the shots to NB. Did the weapon malfunction and produce two shots at a time.
If you look at June this does not happen, but if you look at the children it does. It might be nothing...just though I would mention it. ;D ;D ;D ;D
Yes I think that was mentioned by someone before in respect of the shots to Sheila.Could it have just happened by accident one after the other.
Also had not really noticed the angles either they are interesting
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That empty box of bullets,if that's what it is there,was found in the main bedroom. So like the rifle pictured in the landing space between rooms,both items found their way into the main bedroom ??
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Yes I think that was mentioned by someone before in respect of the shots to Sheila.Could it have just happened by accident one after the other.
Also had not really noticed the angles either they are interesting
I thought it might have Jan at one time in Sheila's case, but when I took into consideration that the blood flowed onto her nightie which flows to right, which suggests she may have been on her right side as she was sat down, I changed my mind about the the 2nd shot going off in a accident..She obviously brought her right arm/hand up to her neck as the blood spilled down her arm, so she must have been in a sitting position. The 2nd shot was not a straight shot either according to the diagrams it comes from the right at an angle. If she was laying down at the time she received that then the trigger would more likely to pointing upwards towards the ceiling...which corresponds with the shell case between Sheila and the bed...with the shell ejecting from the right of the rifle...Folk think I'm balmy Jan....but I know what I mean.... ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Good job I have one hahahahaha ;D ;D ;D ;D
If you hadn't have had one,you could have used the girls' behind. ;D ;D ;D ;D Take that how you wish.
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The question is, would Jeremy have had the knowledge that multiple shot suicides do ocurr, and would he have had the NERVE to just go on and stage it as a suicide? Call the police with a made up story that Nevill had called him, thus painting himself into a corner. Also carelessly putting the silencer with blood, paint and hair on it in the cupboard further incriminating himself.
Those things do not add up for me.
If Jeremy had to shoot Sheila twice for her to die, his best option would not have been going on with his plan of staging it as a suicide. It would logically hav been to either stage a break-in, or simply just going out the door, leaving it open - and not call the police at all.
There are threads showing his best option was to create the siege situation where he could spend hours insinuating Sheila.
For a random stranger to break into a locked remote farm house, massacre men, women and children & then leave without taking anything would just point the finger straight at Jeremy. Especially as he would be first at WHF in the morning. Once he became a suspect he could not mention Sheila's illness.
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Hi Jan. If she shot the twins first then she would have had to reload. 9 shots? leaving a possible 2 left if the magazine was full. She had no pockets and I think it would be unlikely that she carried them in her spare hand.
Neville could have been woken at that point though and had followed Sheila back down stairs completely unaware that the children had been shot. He could have had an argument with Sheila who had the rifle already in her hands and was refusing to give that rifle up. He then called Jeremy for help this angered her like it did when Freddie phoned for help and she cut him off and ran upstairs with the rifle and he raced after her and just plonked the phone down leaving it engaged. She could have then fired at her mother and then at her father as he entered the bedroom. NB then turned round to get downstairs and she raced past him to reload, but before she could fully load they had a scuffle at the sink....Just my theories Jan......could be totally wrong...But it might be better than this one.
Jeremy put on his wetsuit and peddled through the back wacks to WHF. He then entered the house via the downstairs bathroom window. He collected the rifle with silencer from the den or a hidden place somewhere else in the house and placed the fully loaded magazine into it, or it could have already been in. He crept upstairs entered the children's room and fired 9 shots. He then crept downstairs to reload thus giving him 11 more bullets to fire. He then entered the main bedroom and shot his mother several times, then shot his father as he managed to get out of bed and into a standing position. Jeremy then managed to fire two shots to Neville's jaw. (important point coming up) NB then had to get passed Jeremy so that he could shot him from the back for the shots to his shoulder and arm were fired when NB had his back to the shooter. JB then rushed past him shoving NB towards the wall where there were blood trace evidence. He got to the kitchen NB tried to get the rifle of him they had this almighty fight at the kitchen sink. NB then had 4 more shoots and was beaten over the head with the rifle. JB then went back upstairs woke Sheila up and led her to the main bedroom she was told to lie down and he shot her twice. He then showered in his wetsuit, phoned home, swapped the phones placed the silencer back into the cupboard, went back into the kitchen bolted the kitchen door then climbed out of the kitchen window because he knew how to lock it. He ten peddled home via the sea wall and got out of the suit hung it up. The invented a call from his father.
Which sounds the most far fetched?
Sorry about the length of this post Jan....I'm not a chatter box in real life. ;D ;D ;D
So a fully fit Neville was unable to get the rifle off Sheila ? So Jeremy was phoned, rather than June.
Neville and June did not hear her shoot the twins eight times beforehand. Although Jeremy said the rifle did not have a silencer on.
If Sheila then shot Neville upstairs with the remaining bullets, after the twins had been shot, he would have received only three bullets. June continuing to sleep through it all.
The prosecution's version of events is much more straight forward and plausible. Everything fits.
I agree he did not shoot the twins first, he went straight to the main bedroom emptying the rifle into June & Neville in/by the bed. The twins sleeping through it all as the rifle had the silencer on.
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" HE ",didn't shoot anyone !!
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There are threads showing his best option was to create the siege situation where he could spend hours insinuating Sheila.
For a random stranger to break into a locked remote farm house, massacre men, women and children & then leave without taking anything would just point the finger straight at Jeremy. Especially as he would be first at WHF in the morning. Once he became a suspect he could not mention Sheila's illness.
They show nothing of the sort - you are just making up a story to fit a scenario.
And as their were rumours about drugs connections the other "scenario" may not be so far fetched, and anyway he could have stolen stuff and hidden it - he had to do that with his clothes and shoes in your scenario - so why not fake a burglary/drugs /money scenario .Then the bodies would have been discovered in the morning and no risk of establishing time of death.
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They show nothing of the sort - you are just making up a story to fit a scenario.
And as their were rumours about drugs connections the other "scenario" may not be so far fetched, and anyway he could have stolen stuff and hidden it - he had to do that with his clothes and shoes in your scenario - so why not fake a burglary/drugs /money scenario .Then the bodies would have been discovered in the morning and no risk of establishing time of death.
Rumours about drugs ? Was it June ?
Perhaps Jeremy could have hired a removal van to create a fake burglary. Disposing items would mean Jeremy could not auction them off to Sotherby's. Bit of an elaborate plan. And the finger would still point at Jeremy.
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I've never heard such a cobbled-up scenario in all my life. Hired a removal van to create a fake burglar ??
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Interestingly when the police suggested it was not possible for Sheila to shoot herself twice, Jeremy did not refute this. Or passionately say the police had to be wrong. Or demand proof of this.
He simply shrugged his shoulders and said perhaps it was the dog who fired the second shot. As well as claiming Neville may have said 'she' rather than 'Sheila'. Suggesting a random woman carried out the massacre. Leaving the gun on Sheila ! Ann Eaton ?
All in the Interview Transcripts & Wilkes's book.