Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Adam on December 12, 2014, 01:56:AM
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Pre trial, the defence consulted several leading experts. This was to see if they believed Sheila's medical condition made her capable going into such a mad rage and committing the massacre. They all said it did not.
Since the trial supporters have claimed that these experts were not given the full facts on her medical condition. Not sure why the medical departments were not going to hand over all requested information. There was about to be a multiple murder trial. Also not sure how supporters know what the experts saw or did not see.
The defence also had the best witness - Jeremy, who seemed to know all about Sheila's illness when speaking to police pre arrest. He went a bit silent after his arrest but put a lot of information on the WS . He even knew what no one else knew, that 'Sheila was going to be sent to the nut house' & had committed child abuse on the twins.
Neville and June would know more than anyone about Sheila's condition. She was costing them enough in medical bills. So very surprising that they invited her over for an extended stay if she was a danger. And that Colin allowed this. And even more surprising that Neville & June would provoke her with suggestions of fostering.
The Foakes's saw Sheila on the massacre day & she seemed in good spirits. She even took the twins to see Jeremy on his tractor.
Apparently Sheila was non responsive when the alleged fostering conversation took place. The judge saying this alleged conversation cannot be used as a reason for the 3am outburst.
Despite all this Sheila suddenly massacred five members of her family, repeat 'massacred five members of her family'. Shooting them in the head & torso over 20 times. And brutally beating the person she was closest to.
Do people believe that a woman going from happy, non responsive earlier in the day to massacring five members of her immediate family is unrealistic ?
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Sheila WASN'T happy at all. Her persona was the " calm before the storm ".It's how the illness manifests itself---------elation then a complete downer. Sheila was her " happiest " being separated from her mother,because she felt free from the chains of suppression.
Until Sheila was in the company of June,she was perfectly normal.
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Adam did you ever watch that link that explains her illness - Which was real and factual.
If not go away and get a bit more understanding.
Also her full past medical history was not revealed to the defence or jury . And Freddie E only had his statement read out he did not appear and also Colin said violence was always under the surface of their relationship.
Some questions to you - do you believe that the thoughts that's she held about her sons and the fact she thought the CIA were after her were normal?
Also you are perfectly willing to accept that Jeremy without any confirmed mental illness could carry out the killings ? And yet you will not accept that Sheila who did have a confirmed medical condition could not have committed the crime ? Where is your logic in that?
It has been proven that Jeremy was not telling lies about the fostering adoption scenario so why do you keep bringing that up?
If Neville had agreed with June about this plan how do you think Sheila would have reacted?
Another poster has shown you that it was reported her medication changes before that date could have caused significant changes in her behaviour - why do you chose to ignore that?
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Adam you moan when we don't answer your threads ?
here is a chance for proper discussion.
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Adam did you ever watch that link that explains her illness - Which was real and factual.
If not go away and get a bit more understanding.
Also her full past medical history was not revealed to the defence or jury . And Freddie E only had his statement read out he did not appear and also Colin said violence was always under the surface of their relationship.
Some questions to you - do you believe that the thoughts that's she held about her sons and the fact she thought the CIA were after her were normal?
Also you are perfectly willing to accept that Jeremy without any confirmed mental illness could carry out the killings ? And yet you will not accept that Sheila who did have a confirmed medical condition could not have committed the crime ? Where is your logic in that?
It has been proven that Jeremy was not telling lies about the fostering adoption scenario so why do you keep bringing that up?
If Neville had agreed with June about this plan how do you think Sheila would have reacted?
Another poster has shown you that it was reported her medication changes before that date could have caused significant changes in her behaviour - why do you chose to ignore that?
Brilliant post Jan, if only the jury knew the truth
We all know what the outcome would have been
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Adam did you ever watch that link that explains her illness - Which was real and factual.
If not go away and get a bit more understanding.
Also her full past medical history was not revealed to the defence or jury . And Freddie E only had his statement read out he did not appear and also Colin said violence was always under the surface of their relationship.
Some questions to you - do you believe that the thoughts that's she held about her sons and the fact she thought the CIA were after her were normal?
Also you are perfectly willing to accept that Jeremy without any confirmed mental illness could carry out the killings ? And yet you will not accept that Sheila who did have a confirmed medical condition could not have committed the crime ? Where is your logic in that?
It has been proven that Jeremy was not telling lies about the fostering adoption scenario so why do you keep bringing that up?
If Neville had agreed with June about this plan how do you think Sheila would have reacted?
Another poster has shown you that it was reported her medication changes before that date could have caused significant changes in her behaviour - why do you chose to ignore that?
Jeremy was an 'Inheritance killer'. There have been a lot over the years. Most not showing prior signs of mental illness or criminal behaviour. Thread already created.
There is nothing on the OS saying the defence did not have all information on Sheila's illness. Thought by law they would have to provide this pre trial.
Jeremy also seemed to know a lot about Sheila's illness. He also had access to WHF so could get any paperwork on this which Neville had stored.
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you did not actually answer my questions.
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He doesn't fully answer anyones questions unless they involve Jeremy slaying the family. A person as biased as he is finds it very difficult to listen/read anything that's opposite to his own thinking. He's simply got no answers to a reasoned discussion.
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Adam you did not discuss my questions in reply 2?
So you are saying as one reply only that Jeremy is not suffering from any kind of mental illness at all - without any previous signs of violence whatsoever he shot his family in cold blood for the money and there was absolutely no sign of any other reason behind it at all ?
And you only logic for this is that YOU don't feel that Sheila was capable or ill enough to carry out the shooting?
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Adam you did not discuss my questions in reply 2?
So you are saying as one reply only that Jeremy is not suffering from any kind of mental illness at all - without any previous signs of violence whatsoever he shot his family in cold blood for the money and there was absolutely no sign of any other reason behind it at all ?
And you only logic for this is that YOU don't feel that Sheila was capable or ill enough to carry out the shooting?
Yes that is what I am saying. It is called being an 'Inheritance killer'. Thread already created. Although Jeremy was different to a lot of others, as he had recently committed a crime against his family.
There were lots of other reasons why he committed the massacre. See my 'Apart from £436,000... ' thread.
All first time criminals had no history of criminal behaviour. Lots of criminals have no medical condition. They are just greedy.
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Yes that is what I am saying. It is called being an 'Inheritance killer'. Thread already created. Although Jeremy was different to a lot of others, as he had recently committed a crime against his family.
There were lots of other reasons why he committed the massacre. See my 'Apart from £436,000... ' thread.
All first time criminals had no history of criminal behaviour. Lots of criminals have no medical condition. They are just greedy.
And that view is what prevents any further discussion with YOU. What your underlying words are saying is that whatever WE have to say YOU aren't interested in hearing.
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So what are your opinions on the thoughts that Sheila had about her sons during her illness - sexual and violent thoughts - what she thought they were capable of ?
Do you not think they could have explained why if she was in a psychotic episode she could have killed them?
Did you watch any videos that explain how her mind could have been working at the time?
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Adam I thought you set up the thread to discuss Sheilas medical condition and whether or not it is relevant to the case?
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Adam I thought you set up the thread to discuss Sheilas medical condition and whether or not it is relevant to the case?
He CAN'T discuss it Jan because he has neither the knowledge nor the interest in anything which diverts him from the frivolous. Instead he sets up YET another irrelevant thread in which the only difference from two others is the destination.
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He CAN'T discuss it Jan because he has neither the knowledge nor the interest in anything which diverts him from the frivolous. Instead he sets up YET another irrelevant thread in which the only difference from two others is the destination.
Yes he has just proved he is incapable of discussion in any form - I will not be answering his posts - not doubt he will have some analogy of why we have him on ignore , but perhaps he should consider that he is one of the only posters I know who manages to wind up the posters who are actually on his "side of the fence" . That is quite an achievement . But not one to be proud of . ;D
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He CAN'T discuss it Jan because he has neither the knowledge nor the interest in anything which diverts him from the frivolous. Instead he sets up YET another irrelevant thread in which the only difference from two others is the destination.
You only post on here to or about me. Because you have nothing worthwhile to say.
But you should be thanking me. You changed you're mind after I joined. Not liking Mary's & Julie's trial outfits ;D.
And I answered Jan's question about Jeremy committing the massacre despite having no medical issues. It is called being greedy.
Anyway pre trial people did say he showed classic signs of being a psychopath.
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Yes he has just proved he is incapable of discussion in any form - I will not be answering his posts - not doubt he will have some analogy of why we have him on ignore , but perhaps he should consider that he is one of the only posters I know who manages to wind up the posters who are actually on his "side of the fence" . That is quite an achievement . But not one to be proud of . ;D
If you put me on ignore you will not have anything to post. As the last few months you have only posted to or about me.
People are biased about Julie, June & the relatives. Insinuating they framed an innocent man.
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If you put me on ignore you will not have anything to post. As the last few months you have only posted to or about me.
People are biased about Julie, June & the relatives. Insinuating they framed an innocent man.
Actually we had some very pleasant conversations and discussion while you were on your last gardening leave - don´t flatter yourself! The only thing you do is disrupt the board making everything about yourself.
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Actually we had some very pleasant conversations and discussion while you were on your last gardening leave - don´t flatter yourself! The only thing you do is disrupt the board making everything about yourself.
Do you think Sheila's medical condition made her into a brutal killer ?
That was what my thread post was about. People focus on me because I highlight Jeremy's guilt.
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Do you think Sheila's medical condition made her into a brutal killer ?
That was what my thread post was about. People focus on me because I highlight Jeremy's guilt.
No, because you are super-annoying.
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Do you think Sheila's medical condition made her into a brutal killer ?
That was what my thread post was about. People focus on me because I highlight Jeremy's guilt.
no i think her medication did.
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You only post on here to or about me. Because you have nothing worthwhile to say.
But you should be thanking me. You changed you're mind after I joined. Not liking Mary's & Julie's trial outfits ;D.
And I answered Jan's question about Jeremy committing the massacre despite having no medical issues. It is called being greedy.
Anyway pre trial people did say he showed classic signs of being a psychopath.
And you actually believe that YOU are saying anything worthwhile, do you. Most of what emerges from your mouth is unadulterated FILTH directed at whoever you pick as your next victim. Your mentality is such that you seem to derive some kind of vicarious pleasure from telling posters AD NAUSEUM that I thought Julie and her mother were dressed, if not like tarts, like they were going to the races instead of court. WHY would I expect otherwise from someone who maintains Jeremy is guilty because he wore a Hugo Boss suit. At a rough guess I'd say you serve the innocent side better than the guilty side but as neither side would rate you as their favourite poster that's about as relevant as you are. It's just as well you have such a conceited and overblown opinion of your powers of persuasion because YOU are the only one who has. In fact, the chances are, that the only time you're liked is when you're one gardening leave....................which, for those who don't yet know, is the colloquial for SERVING A BAN.
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And you actually believe that YOU are saying anything worthwhile, do you. Most of what emerges from your mouth is unadulterated FILTH directed at whoever you pick as your next victim. Your mentality is such that you seem to derive some kind of vicarious pleasure from telling posters AD NAUSEUM that I thought Julie and her mother were dressed, if not like tarts, like they were going to the races instead of court. WHY would I expect otherwise from someone who maintains Jeremy is guilty because he wore a Hugo Boss suit. At a rough guess I'd say you serve the innocent side better than the guilty side but as neither side would rate you as their favourite poster that's about as relevant as you are. It's just as well you have such a conceited and overblown opinion of your powers of persuasion because YOU are the only one who has. In fact, the chances are, that the only time you're liked is when you're one gardening leave....................which, for those who don't yet know, is the colloquial for SERVING A BAN.
I have reported this to the moderators. I have never posted 'unadulterated filth'
Why did you change from innocent to guilty after 29 years then ?
You previously said you did not like Mary's & Julie's trial outfits. You changed to guilty directly after Susan & Caroline. And after Alias said she was undecided. There is no shame in saying you want to stay with the majority on here to try to be popular.
There are lots of reasons why I think Jeremy is guilty. I have only mentioned his Hugo Boss suit in the 'A funeral, a time to grieve, or a time to celebrate' thread.
My reasons for thinking he is guilty are in other threads. Which you have read as you are always commenting in them.
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I have reported this to the moderators. I have never posted 'unadulterated filth'
Why did you change from innocent to guilty after 29 years then ?
You previously said you did not like Mary's & Julie's trial outfits. You changed to guilty directly after Susan & Caroline. And after Alias said she was undecided. There is no shame in saying you want to stay with the majority on here to try to be popular.
There are lots of reasons why I think Jeremy is guilty. I have only mentioned his Hugo Boss suit in the 'A funeral, a time to grieve, or a time to celebrate' thread.
My reasons for thinking he is guilty are in other threads. Which you have read as you are always commenting in them.
Again - stop using me in your sick game! I have been undecided from day one I knew about this case. Years before you appeared here. My stance has nothing, not a thing, to do with you.
I have said this about ten times to you, yet you keep repeating this rubbish. If you do it again, I will report you.
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Again - stop using me in your sick game! I have been undecided from day one I knew about this case. Years before you appeared here. My stance has nothing, not a thing, to do with you.
I have said this about ten times to you, yet you keep repeating this rubbish. If you do it again, I will report you.
You announced it on here. After Susan said mine & Harters posts helped persuade her to change stance, & Caroline said something about a wallet & last harvest changing her stance. Then April changed stance after you're announcement but did not say why.
Every other poster on forums seem to be think he is guilty or innocent. Being undecided is rare.
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I have reported this to the moderators. I have never posted 'unadulterated filth'
Why did you change from innocent to guilty after 29 years then ?
You previously said you did not like Mary's & Julie's trial outfits. You changed to guilty directly after Susan & Caroline. And after Alias said she was undecided. There is no shame in saying you want to stay with the majority on here to try to be popular.
There are lots of reasons why I think Jeremy is guilty. I have only mentioned his Hugo Boss suit in the 'A funeral, a time to grieve, or a time to celebrate' thread.
My reasons for thinking he is guilty are in other threads. Which you have read as you are always commenting in them.
Adam, if it pleases you go right ahead and report away as many times as makes you happy. Much good may it do you because you've lost any credibility you MAY have once had and you're probably regarded as nothing more than an irritating JOKE. There's no other here who has such a high opinion of their own capabilities that they believe, like you, that they're capable of changing posters' minds by the eloquence of their own words, NEITHER do they DEMAND of others that they say WHY their minds have been changed which means that, unlike you, they don't throw toys out of prams when they don't get an answer.
I read your quoted threads. The rest, according to the few who DO read them, aren't worth bothering with.
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You announced it on here. After Susan said mine & Harters posts helped persuade her to change stance, & Caroline said something about a wallet & last harvest changing her stance. Then April changed stance after you're announcement but did not say why.
Every other poster on forums seem to be think he is guilty or innocent. Being undecided is rare.
I see that you still don´t get it. I am not surprised. You have a hardwood kind of mind. I give up, Adam. Everone here knows that I have said all along that I am undecided - from day one.
What you think is unimportant - just leave this out of your posts in the future though, because it is not correct.
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You announced it on here. After Susan said mine & Harters posts helped persuade her to change stance, & Caroline said something about a wallet & last harvest changing her stance. Then April changed stance after you're announcement but did not say why.
Every other poster on forums seem to be think he is guilty or innocent. Being undecided is rare.
People don't change their opinion overnight Adam, it's a build up of things. However, once doubt sets in, it's hard to shake. I honestly don't think anyone changed their mind because of something someone else said. Susan was just winding you up - odd that you didn't recognise it being as you're quite fond of doing it yourself! ;)
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People don't change their opinion overnight Adam, it's a build up of things. However, once doubt sets in, it's hard to shake. I honestly don't think anyone changed their mind because of something someone else said. Susan was just winding you up - odd that you didn't recognise it being as you're quite fond of doing it yourself! ;)
Thing is, I haven´t changed my opinion at all. Well, perhaps about some details I used to buy into, but overall it is the same: I don´t know who committed the murders, I have problems with myths on both sides, I have problems with the whole scene around Sheila´s body in the bedroom. It has always been that way for me, it may be rare to be undecided, but I am. Always have been.
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Robert Boutflour continued his investigation.
Sargent Barlow told him there was no evidence of Sheila suffering from any drug induced psychosis. And Freddie Emani said Sheila had lost all co ordination in her last weeks. Needing two hands to drink water.
Ann Eaton's reaction to Sheila re loading was 'WHAT'. This did not relate to the woman who had trouble putting sugar in tea.
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Robert Boutflour continued his investigation.
Sargent Barlow told him there was no evidence of Sheila suffering from any drug induced psychosis. And Freddie Emani said Sheila had lost all co ordination in her last weeks. Needing two hands to drink water.
Ann Eaton's reaction to Sheila re loading was 'WHAT'. This did not relate to the woman who had trouble putting sugar in tea.
Adam what was Wilkes explanation as to how Ann Eaton knew that? Since she had not seen Sheila in person since Christmas and her statement was about Sheila's state in August.
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Adam what was Wilkes explanation as to how Ann Eaton knew that? Since she had not seen Sheila in person since Christmas and her statement was about Sheila's state in August.
I have no idea when AE last saw Sheila. However her WS says she said 'WHAT' when finding out Sheila had re loaded twice.
Maybe Sheila had been watching John Wayne films.
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Adam what was Wilkes explanation as to how Ann Eaton knew that? Since she had not seen Sheila in person since Christmas and her statement was about Sheila's state in August.
Wonder how she varnished all her toenails then? As a woman I can tell you that takes co-ordination.
Is it not also a fact that persons in the middle of an episode manage to find strength from no-where . I am sure if you speak to medical personnel they will confirm this .
And was there not the occasion where several people were called to help and they could not control her at all.
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That would have been after a night on the cocaine,speed and cannabis,Jan !
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Ain't that sweet.
Jan putting me on ignore as she does not like to read horrible incriminating evidence on her beloved Jeremy from that nasty Adam.
But she still gets on her little fire engine and fire fights. Even though she cannot read my posts. Ding a ling.
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Shut up you.
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Ain't that sweet.
Jan putting me on ignore as she does not like to read horrible incriminating evidence on her beloved Jeremy from that nasty Adam.
But she still gets on her little fire engine and fire fights. Even though she cannot read my posts. Ding a ling.
I was under the impression Jan was answering MY post Adam? Wouldn't you say that in this instance it is you who are targeting people in order to wind them up? ;)
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I wish I had not seen that goading quote - because I said I would take him off ignore after Christmas - what a shame >:(
And just for the record AGAIN - unlike some people I have always been honest about my feelings for Jeremy. I have NO feelings what so ever for Jeremy.So Adams post is an untruth.
I don't know him , I have never spoken to him. I have no feelings about his character good or bad. I am approaching this case from a different angle.
I always find honesty is the best policy. Its a pity that others do not do the same and admit their connection to the case.
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He's a blooming annoyance like a festering boil.
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I wish I had not seen that goading quote - because I said I would take him off ignore after Christmas - what a shame >:(
And just for the record AGAIN - unlike some people I have always been honest about my feelings for Jeremy. I have NO feelings what so ever for Jeremy.So Adams post is an untruth.
I don't know him , I have never spoken to him. I have no feelings about his character good or bad. I am approaching this case from a different angle.
I always find honesty is the best policy. Its a pity that others do not do the same and admit their connection to the case.
Yes I agree Jan. Adam's post was specifically designed to goad you. By implying things about you that just aren't true he is underhandedly blackening your name.
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Yes I agree Jan. Adam's post was specifically designed to goad you. By implying things about you that just aren't true he is underhandedly blackening your name.
Its not the first time either.
But I know what the truth is :) so am I bovvered? Nope.
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It is very very damaging that Freddie said Sheila was so un coordinated leading up to massacre. Unable to lift a glass with one hand. As her boyfriend he would know.
Freddie would have told Neville about this. Although he probably knew anyway, paying for her medical bills.
It is common sense for Neville to tackle and easily restrain Sheila. Using a chair or other big object in the first few seconds to protect his head and torso. Another adult June available for assistance.
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I have no idea when AE last saw Sheila. However her WS says she said 'WHAT' when finding out Sheila had re loaded twice.
Maybe Sheila had been watching John Wayne films.
So in other words Wilkes says nothing about how Ann Eaton new so much about Sheila when she had not even seen her since the Christmas before then?
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It is very very damaging that Freddie said Sheila was so un coordinated leading up to massacre. Unable to lift a glass with one hand. As her boyfriend he would know.
Freddie would have told Neville about this. Although he probably knew anyway, paying for her medical bills.
It is common sense for Neville to tackle and easily restrain Sheila. Using a chair or other big object in the first few seconds to protect his head and torso. Another adult June available for assistance.
And Freddy was afraid of Sheila when she went into one of her tantrums. Colin also mentions these.
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And Freddy was afraid of Sheila when she went into one of her tantrums. Colin also mentions these.
Well if 3 qualified doctors couldn't restrain her,there wasn't much hope of anyone else trying to.
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Well if 3 qualified doctors couldn't restrain her,there wasn't much hope of anyone else trying to.
One poster suggested recently that initially Sheila may have been threatening to kill herself - which would have made more sense because you would not just go in to overpower her when there would be a possibility of her shooting herself whilst you were doing that.
I guess though that would mean the sound moderator was not on the gun because how would she be in a position to do that with the rifle with the moderator on ?
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One poster suggested recently that initially Sheila may have been threatening to kill herself - which would have made more sense because you would not just go in to overpower her when there would be a possibility of her shooting herself whilst you were doing that.
I guess though that would mean the sound moderator was not on the gun because how would she be in a position to do that with the rifle with the moderator on ?
She'd have been hard-pushed to shoot herself even without the moderator on the spur of the moment,unless she'd been laid down. Unlike a revolver which is more manageable,so I'd very much doubt she'd have been in a position to have physically showed signs of suicide holding a rifle.
Only at the end would she have collapsed with exhaustion would she have been able to carry out suicide,not whilst standing ( which we all know )
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IMO Sheila may have put the moderator on before shooting the boys, she may have been afraid they would wake up. She may have then shot Neville and June more times before removing it. Any blood inside the silencer would have been mixed by the act of unscrewing it.
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IMO Sheila may have put the moderator on before shooting the boys, she may have been afraid they would wake up. She may have then shot Neville and June more times before removing it. Any blood inside the silencer would have been mixed by the act of unscrewing it.
I think one of the many problems is that we may have been assuming she was in the middle of an "episode" where she may not have recognised her family as her family ( remember the fact that she thought her boyfriend was the devil and the CIA were stalking her) in which case it would be wrong to attribute any logical Thoughts or actions to what happened.
But of course there is the possibility that having had suicidal thoughts before, that the fact that Colin was not coming back to her , fostering had been discussed ( backed up by other evidence in both cases )and she felt betrayal by her father if he was agreeing with June, that she did just decide enough was enough and she did know what she was doing. Having seen the report of the recent case where the mother killed her children , she though the ultimate act of love was to take her children with her , abandonment was the last option as she felt that would mean she was a bad mother.
It is very hard to imagine what could possibly have been going on in her mind and whether she would have used the moderator and then taken it off again . It seems unlikely - but to be fair no more unlikely than the whole scenario of JB committing the crime and then standing next to the police a couple of hours later.
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I really don't think that Sheila was compos mentis enough to have returned the moderator to the cupboard,though I'd love to know where it was REALLY found !?
As Jan said,she'd have been totally unaware of her own actions during a psychotic attack,having witnessed such an episode myself where the person had no conception of her actions after they took place. No memory whatsoever.
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In my experience of people having psychotic episodes, you are right that they have no memory of it afterwards but they can recognise people they know. It's just that they get warped ideas about peoples intentions. If you try to get them to take medication they may think you are trying to poison them. Or if you won't let them go out you are keeping them prisoner. Things can get confrontational pretty quickly if you can't reason with them. My cousin was once convinced he was about to be awarded the Nobel prize and said he would mention my name because I had given him the original idea. That was all before he strangled his wife because she was driving him to the mental hospital.
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I can relate to what you said regarding your cousin,as this person who I know put me in a pretty dangerous position this summer because of her mental state. I was only helping but could easily have ended up a victim of her unbalanced mind. She had no recollection whatsoever when I questioned her about the incident and appeared quite matter-of-fact and normal.
Because of this,I then had far more understanding of Sheilas' illness in that because I was able to ask this person about her " episode ",so it's quite true that they don't remember a thing,the same as Sheila wouldn't had she lived. Scary too,but living proof as well.
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A Medical cover-up,eh ?
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In my experience of people having psychotic episodes, you are right that they have no memory of it afterwards but they can recognise people they know. It's just that they get warped ideas about peoples intentions. If you try to get them to take medication they may think you are trying to poison them. Or if you won't let them go out you are keeping them prisoner. Things can get confrontational pretty quickly if you can't reason with them. My cousin was once convinced he was about to be awarded the Nobel prize and said he would mention my name because I had given him the original idea. That was all before he strangled his wife because she was driving him to the mental hospital.
I did watch a programme quite recently where it took a large number of policemen to calm one man in the middle of an episode. But he was not seeing them as policemen. they were the enemy and that was all he saw. When he came out of the episode he was so apologetic and a kind gentle person. It made me understand a lot more what can happen.
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I really don't think that Sheila was compos mentis enough to have returned the moderator to the cupboard,though I'd love to know where it was REALLY found !?
As Jan said,she'd have been totally unaware of her own actions during a psychotic attack,having witnessed such an episode myself where the person had no conception of her actions after they took place. No memory whatsoever.
this is a point I have asked before . What if the family did find the moderator - but not in the cupboard. What if was somewhere that the police should have found it but didn't - for example under the bed? And the police just asked the family to cover that bit up because it made them look stupid. That would change the whole situation and would explain a lot?
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this is a point I have asked before . What if the family did find the moderator - but not in the cupboard. What if was somewhere that the police should have found it but didn't - for example under the bed? And the police just asked the family to cover that bit up because it made them look stupid. That would change the whole situation and would explain a lot?
The relatives found the moderator in a small box. Underneath other boxes, guns & dartboards. That has never been disputed.
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The problem is all the evidence points to Sheila not being capable of committing the massacre. Freddie saying she could hardly hold a glass.
Pre trial, the defence consulted several leading experts. This was to see if they believed Sheila's medical condition made her capable going into such a mad rage and committing the massacre. They all said it did not.
Since the trial supporters have claimed that these experts were not given the full facts on her medical condition. Not sure why the medical departments were not going to hand over all requested information. There was about to be a multiple murder trial. Also not sure how supporters know what the experts saw or did not see.
The defence also had the best witness - Jeremy, who seemed to know all about Sheila's illness when speaking to police pre arrest. He went a bit silent after his arrest but put a lot of information on the WS . He even knew what no one else knew, that 'Sheila was going to be sent to the nut house' & had committed child abuse on the twins.
Neville and June would know more than anyone about Sheila's condition. She was costing them enough in medical bills. So very surprising that they invited her over for an extended stay if she was a danger. And that Colin allowed this. And even more surprising that Neville & June would provoke her with suggestions of fostering.
The Foakes's saw Sheila on the massacre day & she seemed in good spirits. She even took the twins to see Jeremy on his tractor.
Apparently Sheila was non responsive when the alleged fostering conversation took place. The judge saying this alleged conversation cannot be used as a reason for the 3am outburst.
Despite all this Sheila suddenly massacred five members of her family, repeat 'massacred five members of her family'. Shooting them in the head & torso over 20 times. And brutally beating the person she was closest to.
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this is a point I have asked before . What if the family did find the moderator - but not in the cupboard. What if was somewhere that the police should have found it but didn't - for example under the bed? And the police just asked the family to cover that bit up because it made them look stupid. That would change the whole situation and would explain a lot?
Yes,that would figure. Something's been smoothed over,of that there's no doubt,because I've never believed that the silencer was in that cupboard, and shoved to the back.Who'd have wanted it to have been hidden anyway ? Not even DB,who'd have been more than pleased to have seen it balancing under the nose's of the cops on a shelf in front of them.That's where it would have been if those concerned wanted it to have been found.
What would have been the purpose of hiding something like that anyway,knowing that it would eventually have been found ? Not even Jeremy was as dumb as that.
When you think about it,there are a lot of questions about that silencer and that's why I've thought it too obvious as having been a red-herring all along. There were 5 of the damn things,but only one was needed in which to point a finger at Jeremy !! So that phoney " evidence ",along with JM's lies,got him where he's been for 30 years. I very much doubt if it'll be 31.
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I would like to say for the record that even Colin - who remember was convinced that Sheila was guilty in the beginning contradicts himself about her "abilities"
He does say at times her co-ordination was bad - however she was perfectly capable of preparing and helping for the twins party just before the murders with no problems what so ever.
He did also say that when she had her episode in March , an emergency doctor did voice his fears that she was a threat to herself and others.
He also had been looking after the twins for 5 months at the time of the murders and was very angry when he heard that June had been talking about fostering the children with a local Christian family because Sheila could not look after them and it would mean the family could see more of the twins .But he readily accepted that this conversation could have taken place.
He also mentions that both he and Sheila used to go beating with shoots.
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I rather think that Colin could have opened up a bit more in his book.He gave me the impression he was holding back on quite a lot really,well his book did.It was in fits and starts with no middle,if you get my meaning.
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I thought it was worth reposting the full statement from FE
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the rest
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There was never any mention of Colin helping out moneywise,in supporting the boys. Child maintenance ? For when Sheila had the boys ?
The poor girl,in her state of health,had to go looking for work ? Something was wrong somewhere. It was alright for Colin saying he was worried about her not being able to pay the rent,etc,on Maida Vale,but were there any contributions coming forthwith from him ? Probably relying on the fact that her parents would help out.
BTW,Jan,thanks for putting that up. These statements act as refreshers because of there being so much " needlessly " involved.
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There was never any mention of Colin helping out moneywise,in supporting the boys. Child maintenance ? For when Sheila had the boys ?
The poor girl,in her state of health,had to go looking for work ? Something was wrong somewhere. It was alright for Colin saying he was worried about her not being able to pay the rent,etc,on Maida Vale,but were there any contributions coming forthwith from him ? Probably relying on the fact that her parents would help out.
BTW,Jan,thanks for putting that up. These statements act as refreshers because of there being so much " needlessly " involved.
Who was the friend Tara - I don't think I have seen evidence from her anywhere?
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Who was the friend Tara - I don't think I have seen evidence from her anywhere?
Tara was a close friend of Sheilas' who she met while modelling. They lived close by each other in London. Tara's mentioned in Claire Powells' book.
I'll root out something about her. I do know that Tara had remarked on " seeing a vast change in Sheila " after her hospitalization.
Why did June leave some religious material with Tara.? Did she think that she too was a " fallen woman "in need of redeeming ?".
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" Tara had sensed problems with Sheila because of the " claustrophobic " attention she lavished on the twins. They were gorgeous little boys,but very thin,very frail-looking with little arms and legs like matchsticks." Tara goes on to say that Sheila had a funny attitude with the boys,saying they were wimps and cowards because they'd been frightened by another child,wishing that they were tougher. ( poor little mites )
One part of the book expressed Sheilas' bitterness towards both her parents. This was after her last visit in hospital in 1985 when Sheila recuperated at WHF,and Sheila was forever openly criticising her mother of losing her soul and neglecting her religion. Even when Sheila eventually returned home to Maida Vale,she still hung on to the bitterness that she felt towards her parents.Sonja,another friend had remarked on it being difficult to cope with the change in Sheila,and had said that there was " something strange about her ". Sheila had told Sonja that she was angry at her parents attitude towards her.
Getting away from the book,the author paints such a bleak picture of Sheila,that you do assume that it was Sheila who carried out those terrible murders. Everything adds up and points towards her.
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What I and I suspect anyone else couldn't help but notice was just house violent Sheila became. So much so that no one was able to restrain her.
Now I don't know about anyone else here, but I for one could not say that Sheila was "better" by the night of the murders as some have suggested? This event here indicates very strongly that Sheila was in fact unstable and in fact was so the night of the murders? I don't go along with all this balony that her illness was controlled. Actually I suggest that you won't find any psychiatrist to say such a thing about a patient? They are usually very suppressed when speaking about their patients. That is why psychiatric patients are reviewed at regular intervals.
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Colin said the emergency doctor and ferguson seemed to disagree with what she was capable of.And one thing he was very sure of was that the "family" i.e Anne , Robert and david etc knew VERY little about sheilas illness. He was surprised that they had been kept in the dark about nearly all of it.
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The top and bottom of it all was that not even Sheilas' doctors,psychiatrists,health workers.carers,call them all what you like,hadn't a clue how her illness would manifest itself. In fact I'd go as far as to say,the knew very little about the illness overall or how to treat it. Even the medication wasn't as controlled as it should have been and certainly no information as regards follow-ups for checking bloods,etc which is needed when taking anti-psychotic drugs.
I just picture Sheila as having been desperately sick to the point of absolute despair. I'm sure certain elements of her condition will show themselves in future reports/info which Jeremys' next submission will mainly contain,thus giving us all the answers. I hope so anyway.
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I wouldn't mind but Jeremy didn't even know that half the land he would have been left,was actually farmed by PE .That would NOT have gone down well. Did the jury know about that little gem ? I bet they didn't. Oh,if only the jury had been told about everything. We wouldn't be on this forum now.
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I wouldn't mind but Jeremy didn't even know that half the land he would have been left,was actually farmed by PE .That would NOT have gone down well. Did the jury know about that little gem ? I bet they didn't. Oh,if only the jury had been told about everything. We wouldn't be on this forum now.
He knew something about the land that Neville had bought before the trial though - but not the full complications . He told Colin that the family had already started fencing some of it off . Also Colin said contrary to what others have posted Jeremy was very down and depressed at times because of the way the family were acting. It was actually Colin who offered to support him and reminded him of the good times he had had with his father. They were both understandably very up and down in the weeks after the murders.
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He knew something about the land that Neville had bought before the trial though - but not the full complications . He told Colin that the family had already started fencing some of it off . Also Colin said contrary to what others have posted Jeremy was very down and depressed at times because of the way the family were acting. It was actually Colin who offered to support him and reminded him of the good times he had had with his father. They were both understandably very up and down in the weeks after the murders.
I'd also read about how the whole affair had affected Jeremy,as it would if you were a normal human being. I was rather surprised at Colin turning tail,although the " poison dwarf " had been to see him a few times,so she'll have made sure that she'd used her fluence on Colin to implicate Jeremy,as when someone is as low in spirits as he must have been,they become very impressionable.
Jeremy couldn't have twigged-on that things were happening behind his back.Only those who are paranoid with a pricking conscience can pick up on things like that because of their guilt. Unlike Jeremy.
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I wonder why Freddie wasn't called to give evidence ? If anyone knew Sheila other than her parents,it was him.
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I wonder why Freddie wasn't called to give evidence ? If anyone knew Sheila other than her parents,it was him.
his statement was read out in court. but as he was known to the police I don't think he was a suitable witness
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his statement was read out in court. but as he was known to the police I don't think he was a suitable witness
So therefore,his statement would have meant sod all too.
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So therefore,his statement would have meant sod all too.
Well The jury knew about his statement so they were aware of what he had to say - but As far as I know he was not cross examined . But I am not sure if it was this full statement.
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I get the impression that Neville wasn't overly concerned about Sheila that night, which may give a clue as to why he didn't call 999 on the night of the murders. What could have prevented him from immediately coming to the aid of his daughter. He had probably seen it all before and thought Sheila would eventually calm down.
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Plus he'd have been tired and worn out after the harvesting. Whatever was worrying Neville at the time would have taken its toll as well. Poor man was piggy-in-the-middle between Sheilas' health problems and also Junes' health which had been delicate since the divorce of her daughter because she had to have psychiatric help after that event. It was only natural at this stage that Neville would side with his wife,but Sheila hadn't seen it that way,having relied on her father for support. Neville had clearly had enough and age was against him this time.
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Plus he'd have been tired and worn out after the harvesting. Whatever was worrying Neville at the time would have taken its toll as well. Poor man was piggy-in-the-middle between Sheilas' health problems and also Junes' health which had been delicate since the divorce of her daughter because she had to have psychiatric help after that event. It was only natural at this stage that Neville would side with his wife,but Sheila hadn't seen it that way,having relied on her father for support. Neville had clearly had enough and age was against him this time.
Bamber was a fool swimming in shark infested waters.
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Bamber was a fool swimming in shark infested waters.
He was indeed,although he wasn't aware at the time.
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He was indeed,although he wasn't aware at the time.
There were for want of a better term "predators" around. Those he thought of as "friends" who betrayed him for silver.
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There were for want of a better term "predators" around. Those he thought of as "friends" who betrayed him for silver.
I know what you mean and I think we've all met those sort in our time.
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I know what you mean and I think we've all met those sort in our time.
Look no further than the family !!