Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: mike tesko on December 03, 2014, 05:43:AM
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The bodies of the victims and the crime scene was interferred and tampered with by a group of Senior Essex police detectives, before SOCO took control of the scene at 10 O'clock. This group of officers were responsible for trying to make Sheila Caffells death, look like a suicide. The truth is that she did not kill herself voluntarily, even if she might have had intentions of doing so. The truth is, that she was killed during a bizarre firearms accident when a rifle which was being positioned upon her body, with the view of trying to show that she could have shot herself by use of it, in the neck earlier. Unfortunately, the rifle in question was still loaded, and whilst the fingers of Sheila were being arranged against the trigger mechanism, with the barrel of the rifle beneath the victims chin, the gun was discharged sending bullet PV/19, up and depositing itself in her brain...
The police know that this is what really happened, and they know that Jeremy Bamber did not shoot and kill his sister. They know he did not kill her, because they did...
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Sheila Caffell was laid down flat when the police shot her, she was not sat upright, and was not conscious. She had already been pronounced as being dead by the police surgeon, Dr Craig, about half an hour or so, before police shot her again during INFORMATIVES being carried out with the bodies and weapons. Jeremy Bamber is innocent, he did not shoot his sister at all, not once, not twice. The bigshot coppers who were there in the bedroom when she received the second fatal shot beneath the chin, all know the absolute truth about what had taken place, and how Sheila Caffell had actually died inside whf...
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There was some truth, in the complaint which Jeremy Bamber made to PS Oliver Saxby, upon being told that all his familhy had been found dead inside the farmhouse, when he accused the police of killing them. He said this because up until that piint he had seen at least one person alive and moving around inside an upstairs bedroom shirtly after his arrival at the scene along with the police. What Jeremy did not know, however, was that after news of his family all being found dead inside the farmhouse was broken to him, that his sister, Sheila, had not been killed by that stage, she was killed after news of all the deaths had been broken to him. Therefore, the true sequence of events occurred as follows - (a) police inform Jeremy that all his family have been found shot dead inside the farmhouse, (b) Jeremy complains to PS Saxby that police who had entered the farmhouse had shot and killed everyone, (c) Sheila was still alive by this stage, (d) police shot and killed Sheila during a bizarre accident during Informatives (after 9 O'clock) being carried out involving Senior police officers...
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Key police radio messages passed too and fro from the scene and the control room, between 8.15am and 10 O' clock that same morning have been deliberately withheld under pii, because they contain evidence of the fact that Sheila Caffell had still been alive inside the main bedroom of the farmhouse, until after 9 O ' clock...
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Jeremys complaint was not investigated, because it was not factually correct - since by the time news was broken to him, that all his family had been found shot dead inside the farnhouse was given to him, this was not strictly true, because Sheila did not get shot with fatal bullet PV/19 until after Jeremy had made his complaint to PS Saxby...
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Senior officers who took part in these INFORMALIES, were desperately trying to find an explanation at the scene for how Sheila could have shot herself twice, and the matter was not helped by people who had seen Sheila's body before senior officers carried out the informalies from 9 O' clock onwards, had only seen one bullet wound present upon the victims throat. The police surgeon, Dr Craig, and PI Bob Miller, who accompanied him at the time Craig pronounced Sheila as being dead, with what they both describe as 'A SOLITARY WOUND ON THE NECK'. Now, the use of the term, 'SOLITARY WOUND', cannot be misinterpreted as though it was reference to two bullet wounds in her neck, prior to 9 O' clock that morning..,
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Photographs taken after 10 O' clock by PC Bird (soco) clearly show two bullet holes present upon Sheila Caffells throat, now how on earth could both the police surgeon, Dr Craig, and PI Bob Miller fail to see both of these bullet holes in her neck, when Craig pronounced Sheila as being dead at 8.44am, and then somehow describe the two of these bullet holes, as a solitary wound?
Well, it's simple - because by that stage, the victim only had a solitary bullet hole in her neck by 8.44am...
Sheila was not shot and killed by the police during INFORMALIES performed by senior police officers, until after 9 O' clock that same morning...
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These same senior officers who were present inside the bedroom at whf when Sheila Caffell was killed, during INFORMALUES performed after 9 O' clock, took charge of the debrief held at Witham later that same evening, and they told the firarms officers that they were to make up thier notes and reports as though the case was being treated as one of 'four murders and a suicide', and that the position of the bodies shown in the official scene photographs, was to be the position and lication found upon entry, which did not please the firearms officers, because they were being ordered to alter the events to suit the bodies having been interferred with at the scene by seniir officers who carried out INFORMALIES. The firearms officers were adked to state that Sheila's body had been discovered on tge main bedroom floir with a rifle atop it, and two bullet holes in her neck, which had not been true, but they were pressured to go along with the scenario, although PS Adams complained at the time to the senior officers at the debrief, that Sheila's body had not been in the same position as shown in the scene photographs, as he had seen the body in, himself...
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Let the record show that I am maintaining that the positions of the three adult victims in this tragedy as shown in the crime scene photographs, only show the positions the bodies were left in by interference of senior officers engaged in INFORMATIVES, carried out between 9 and 10am...
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Let the record show that I am maintaining that the positions of the three adult victims in this tragedy as shown in the crime scene photographs, only show the positions the bodies were left in by interference of senior officers engaged in INFORMATIVES, carried out between 9 and 10am...
Let the record also show, that the raid team did not come upon Sheila Caffells body on the bedroom floor, with a rifle upon it, and two bullet holes in her neck. Sheila was on the bed with a solitary shot to the neck, before her body was carried to the befroom floor during the aforementioned INFORMATIVES, and before that the raid team were confronted by her downstairs in the kitchen...
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" Taff " Jones knew the truth and covered up for his officers. That's loyalty for you.! There'd have been no case had he lived because he knew Jeremy was innocent.
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" Taff " Jones knew the truth and covered up for his officers. That's loyalty for you.! There'd have been no case had he lived because he knew Jeremy was innocent.
Correct...
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The bodies of the victims and the crime scene was interferred and tampered with by a group of Senior Essex police detectives, before SOCO took control of the scene at 10 O'clock. This group of officers were responsible for trying to make Sheila Caffells death, look like a suicide. The truth is that she did not kill herself voluntarily, even if she might have had intentions of doing so. The truth is, that she was killed during a bizarre firearms accident when a rifle which was being positioned upon her body, with the view of trying to show that she could have shot herself by use of it, in the neck earlier. Unfortunately, the rifle in question was still loaded, and whilst the fingers of Sheila were being arranged against the trigger mechanism, with the barrel of the rifle beneath the victims chin, the gun was discharged sending bullet PV/19, up and depositing itself in her brain...
The police know that this is what really happened, and they know that Jeremy Bamber did not shoot and kill his sister. They know he did not kill her, because they did...
If that did happen then it would certainly explain a police cover-up?
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Why can't we decide for ourselves,by EP allowing us to see the original documents as recorded by " Taff " Jones ? Plus other originals before it was " decided " to nail Jeremy.
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We can petition tbe Home Secretary, and force her to try and be as honest, as she can be...
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We can petition tbe Home Secretary, and force her to try and be as honest, as she can be...
Lets be frank, even the Home Secretarys hands, are tied...
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At the end of the day, the well oiled and practised method of 'noble cause corruption', has been an absolute disaster in this case...
Jeremy did not shoot his sister, he did not shoot her, he did not kill her..
He is completely innocent of shooting dead, his sister...
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I know Mike.I just can't see how he could have done either. Even a contortionist would have struggled with the angle at which she was shot.
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At the end of the day, the well oiled and practised method of 'noble cause corruption', has been an absolute disaster in this case...
Jeremy did not shoot his sister, he did not shoot her, he did not kill her..
He is completely innocent of shooting dead, his sister...
Mike I agree with your comments about the home secretary she has shown her courage in standing up to the police as well .
I did write to her at the home office and did get a reply from her office, perhaps a few more people should try?
Because otherwise how are we going to prove anything that might or might not have happened?
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Police needed at least an hour to an hour and a half to sort out the mess that the firearms operation had turned into...
They foolishly had been wating three and a half hours at the scene before going in to try and deal with a deluded Sheila Caffell, irrespective of whether or not the other four victims had already been shot or killed, since surely the police themselves were never in any danger of being attacked by either of the other four members of the family who were known to be present inside. Now, if by the time of the first arrival at the scene Jeremy Bamber had already murdered everyone, the police would not have held off for as long as they did before going in to end the seige. They would have gone in immediately, but something prevented them from doing so, and that something was born out of the sighting of what was believed to have been a silhoetted figure seen in a bedroom through an upstairs window which had its curtains drawn open, a person seen by two police officers, and Jeremy Bamber himself. A figure which PC Myall had thought was an unidentified male, as compared to Jeremys version of events which was that he couldn't tell whether the person they saw was male, or female. On the other hand, according to PS Bews account, what they had been watching was a trick of light which formed the shape of a person, which stood to one side of the window and walked across it, from one part of the bedroom to the other. My thoughts on these events are that because a light was on somewhere upstairs which back lit the bedroom in question, through a partially opened bedroom door, it would have been very difficult, if not nigh on impossible, for any trick of light to manifest utself upin the outside surface of the bedroom window, producing an image of a standing person at one minute, which turned into a moving image of a person in the next. I think PS Bews acciunt is deliberately bogus, he has made his version up, out of mischief, belueving that if he did not do so, that Jeremy could not have murdered everyone inside tge farmhouse by that time. It's funny how Bews did not think it was a trick of light at the time he saw the figure moving about in tge bedroom, which cause him to become transformed into Najinski and bolt back to the patrol car at champion speed, so that he could pass a message to the control room, requesting that the firearms team be deployed to the scene, and get them to bring some tiolet paper and a clean pair of underwear because he had literally crapped his pants...
Boy, that trick of light dancing on the outside surface of the window must have been some scary trick...
Basically, Bews account was / is complete bullshit, or as the case may be, horse shit...
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David Shaws 'INNOCENT MAN' deals with this group of senior officers huddled around Sheila's body on the bedroom floor, trying to fathom out how they could explain away the fact that by that stage she had got two bullet wounds on her throat, whereas when she had been pronounced dead by the police surgeon, Dr Craig (earlier) she had a solitary bullet wound there. The other interesting thing, is that when DR Craig pronounced her as being dead at 8.44am, is that not only did she not have two bullet wounds, but Dr Craig makes no mention of blood running from the corners of her mouth, or diagonally across the throat from the second bullet wound positioned highest upon her neck...
I can't see how the police surgeon, described Sheila as only havibg a solitary wound on her throat at 8.44am, if by that stage she akready had been shot twice there..,
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David Shaws 'INNOCENT MAN' deals with this group of senior officers huddled around Sheila's body on the bedroom floor, trying to fathom out how they could explain away the fact that by that stage she had got two bullet wounds on her throat, whereas when she had been pronounced dead by the police surgeon, Dr Craig (earlier) she had a solitary bullet wound there. The other interesting thing, is that when DR Craig pronounced her as being dead at 8.44am, is that not only did she not have two bullet wounds, but Dr Craig makes no mention of blood running from the corners of her mouth, or diagonally across the throat from the second bullet wound positioned highest upon her neck...
I can't see how the police surgeon, described Sheila as only havibg a solitary wound on her throat at 8.44am, if by that stage she akready had been shot twice there..,
If he'd described in detail the number of shots to all the other victims it does seem strange, but as it must have been obvious that a gun had been used on them all, perhaps the number of shots was academic.
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David Shaws 'INNOCENT MAN' deals with this group of senior officers huddled around Sheila's body on the bedroom floor, trying to fathom out how they could explain away the fact that by that stage she had got two bullet wounds on her throat, whereas when she had been pronounced dead by the police surgeon, Dr Craig (earlier) she had a solitary bullet wound there. The other interesting thing, is that when DR Craig pronounced her as being dead at 8.44am, is that not only did she not have two bullet wounds, but Dr Craig makes no mention of blood running from the corners of her mouth, or diagonally across the throat from the second bullet wound positioned highest upon her neck...
I can't see how the police surgeon, described Sheila as only havibg a solitary wound on her throat at 8.44am, if by that stage she akready had been shot twice there..,
Craig described only ONE shot for ALL of the victims - he simply needed a cause/time of death for the certificates.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1187.msg37049.html#msg37049
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More than likely he'd have meant the one shot which would have proved to be the most fatal,depending on a particular area of the body ?
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More than likely he'd have meant the one shot which would have proved to be the most fatal,depending on a particular area of the body ?
I wonder which of Ralph's head shots he deemed to be the most fatal?
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I wonder which of Ralph's head shots he deemed to be the most fatal?
Well,now,let me see. :-[
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Craig described only ONE shot for ALL of the victims - he simply needed a cause/time of death for the certificates.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1187.msg37049.html#msg37049
Jeremys guilt or innocence, did not rest upon how many times the other four victims were shot. The prosecution did not lead with any evidence about how these other four victims were killed, or had died. It's case revolved around the two shots sustained by her. One of these shots, killed her. The other did not. It would be hard to have proven that the fatal shot, had been fired prior to the non fatal shot. How would Craig have known which of the two shots had killed her? He could only have known that she was dead if she had got two shots in her throat, and that culd not have been the case by 8.44am, because the second shot did not occur until after 9am, when senior officers took it upon themselves to conduct informatives, with a view to explaining away how Sheila could have shot herself twice, by use of the same rifle. But two different guns were used in the shootings of Sheila Caffell, bullets PV/19 and PV/20 were produced by different ammunition manufacturers, and more importantly, each fired by a different gun...
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How could Craig have seen two bullet wounds upon Sheila's throat at 8.44am, and describe both as a solitary shot, if by the time Sheila was photographed on the bed, she only had a single shot? Fact is, that Craig reported a solitary shot to Sheila which he thought had killed her, because at that stage (8.44am) Sheila only had a solitary shot...
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How could Craig have seen two bullet wounds upon Sheila's throat at 8.44am, and describe both as a solitary shot, if by the time Sheila was photographed on the bed, she only had a single shot? Fact is, that Craig reported a solitary shot to Sheila which he thought had killed her, because at that stage (8.44am) Sheila only had a solitary shot...
But that solitary shot did not kill her, she survived that first shot, albeit for part of the time, in an unconscious state...
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I have heard about a theory, that the second shot received by Sheila, was the non fatal neck wound (PV/20), and that because she was already dead, there was very little blood which ran from that second wound?
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Jeremys guilt or innocence, did not rest upon how many times the other four victims were shot. The prosecution did not lead with any evidence about how these other four victims were killed, or had died. It's case revolved around the two shots sustained by her. One of these shots, killed her. The other did not. It would be hard to have proven that the fatal shot, had been fired prior to the non fatal shot. How would Craig have known which of the two shots had killed her? He could only have known that she was dead if she had got two shots in her throat, and that culd not have been the case by 8.44am, because the second shot did not occur until after 9am, when senior officers took it upon themselves to conduct informatives, with a view to explaining away how Sheila could have shot herself twice, by use of the same rifle. But two different guns were used in the shootings of Sheila Caffell, bullets PV/19 and PV/20 were produced by different ammunition manufacturers, and more importantly, each fired by a different gun...
Jeremy wasn't a suspect when Craig pronounced death on the victims, so his guilt or innocence wasn't a consideration. He treated them all the same - selecting one shot that could have caused death.
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I have heard about a theory, that the second shot received by Sheila, was the non fatal neck wound (PV/20), and that because she was already dead, there was very little blood which ran from that second wound?
I can tell you that this can easily be disregarded, because the blood flow which ran from the wound caused by bullet PV/20, ran vertically, indicating that when that shot was fired, she must have been stood upright...
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Jeremy wasn't a suspect when Craig pronounced death on the victims, so his guilt or innocence wasn't a consideration. He treated them all the same - selecting one shot that could have caused death.
He wasn't a suspect, no, that is correct. BUT the truth of the matter is that police shot Sheila twice, once downstairs in the kitchen, and secondly upstairs in the bedroom. Now, at the time when Craig made his statement, police did not want anyone to know that they had shot Sheila, even once, let alone twice - police wanted the case to be one of four murders, and a suicide. Craig did not make a witness statement just for the sake of making a statement, police needed a witness statement from him supporting that case (Sheila had killed the others, and then killed herself), hence why Craig only refers to the existence of a solitary shot, since by 8.44am, that' all she had sustained by that stage was a solutary shot across the throat,,,...
Believe what you want, but I know the truth, I have seen photographs of Sheila on the bed, one shot on her throat, no blood running diagonally accross her face, or her neck...
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He wasn't a suspect, no, that is correct. BUT the truth of the matter is that police shot Sheila twice, once downstairs in the kitchen, a secondly upstairs in the bedroom. Now, at the time when Craig made his statement, police did not want anyone to know that they had shot Sheila, even once, let alone twice - police wanted the case to be one of four murders, and a suicide. Craig did not make a witness statement just for the sake of making a statement, police needed a witness statement from him supporting that case (Sheila had killed the others, and then killed herself), hence why Craig only refers to the existence of a solitary shot, since by 8.44am, that' all she had sustained by that stage...
Believe what you want, but I know the truth, I have seen photographs of Sheila on the bed, one shot on her throat, no blood running diagonally accross her face, or her neck...
But as none of us have, Mike, that's very difficult to take on trust.
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Personally, I would need to see such a photo before I believe it, sorry Mike!
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Personally, I would need to see such a photo before I believe it, sorry Mike!
Me too.
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But as none of us have, Mike, that's very difficult to take on trust.
Then the alternative, for all of you is to try and work out, why the person who shot her, did so with the angle of a rifle at a contrasting angle, between both shots? Surely, someone planning to carry out the so called 'perfect murder', would not make make such a fundamental mistake...
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About how far away was that first shot do you think, Mike ?
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Then the alternative, for all of you is to try and work out, why the person who shot her, did so with the angle of a rifle at a contrasting angle, between both shots? Surely, someone planning to carry out the so called 'perfect murder', would not make make such a fundamental mistake...
In a perfect world, it may be possible to carry out the perfect murder. However, the murderer can only be responsible for their own actions, NOT the actions of a terrified victim whose unplanned for movement could change things out of recognition..........................the best laid plans of mice and men. Or murderers.
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In a perfect world, it may be possible to carry out the perfect murder. However, the murderer can only be responsible for their own actions, NOT the actions of a terrified victim whose unplanned for movement could change things out of recognition..........................the best laid plans of mice and men. Or murderers.
Was just about to say something similar! :)
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In a perfect world, it may be possible to carry out the perfect murder. However, the murderer can only be responsible for their own actions, NOT the actions of a terrified victim whose unplanned for movement could change things out of recognition..........................the best laid plans of mice and men. Or murderers.
Didn´t Jeremy allegedly have total control, leading a complacant and utterly passive Sheila to her death? That is the theory of many.
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Didn´t Jeremy allegedly have total control, leading a complacant and utterly passive Sheila to her death? That is the theory of many.
But certainly not my own!!! One only has TOTAL control when ones actions are conceived in the mind, and transferred to the hands, of whoever is holding the pen/pressing the keys.
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But certainly not my own!!! One only has TOTAL control when ones actions are conceived in the mind, and transferred to the hands, of whoever is holding the pen/pressing the keys.
I always end up with that bedroom scene. Nothing there makes much sense as it has been explained. The main reason I am not on your side of the fence.
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I always end up with that bedroom scene. Nothing there makes much sense as it has been explained. The main reason I am not on your side of the fence.
Alias, I'm inclined to agree BUT the bedroom scene with an almost spotless Sheila is ONE reason I'm no longer on your side of the fence ;D
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Alias, I'm inclined to agree BUT the bedroom scene with an almost spotless Sheila is ONE reason I'm no longer on your side of the fence ;D
I am not on any side of the fence, I am on top of it, and my butt hurts! ;D
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I am not on any side of the fence, I am on top of it, and my butt hurts! ;D
I hope you're using cushions to prevent splinters :D
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Wouldn't it be strange if the real answer turns out to be something even weirder that the two main scenarios we keep coming back to. I do hope we get an answer in 2015!
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This thread goes to the heart of Mike's case,and of course there are only a handful of people who can prove or disprove it,namely those Police Officers who were present at the scene all those years ago. Mike's theory explains away the silhouetted figure,whom we take to be Sheila if we follow his scenario,it explains why Dr. Craig only found one bullet wound to her at 8:25am and it solves the mystery of the rifle spotted by WPC Jeapes earlier and yet not present when the Raid Team stormed the house.
Of course his theory does raise many more questions,even though it has answered some..
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Wouldn't it be strange if the real answer turns out to be something even weirder that the two main scenarios we keep coming back to. I do hope we get an answer in 2015!
Something is missing from either scenario - unfortunately I don´t know what it is!
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This thread goes to the heart of Mike's case,and of course there are only a handful of people who can prove or disprove it,namely those Police Officers who were present at the scene all those years ago. Mike's theory explains away the silhouetted figure,whom we take to be Sheila if we follow his scenario,it explains why Dr. Craig only found one bullet wound to her at 8:25am and it solves the mystery of the rifle spotted by WPC Jeapes earlier and yet not present when the Raid Team stormed the house.
Of course his theory does raise many more questions,even though it has answered some..
But there simply wasn't the need for duplicity, was there? Sheila was shot in the line of duty, end of. The problem comes when a lie, however small, is told,because another is required to cover it.
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But there simply wasn't the need for duplicity, was there? Sheila was shot in the line of duty, end of. The problem comes when a lie, however small, is told,because another is required to cover it.
Not if it was an accident?
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Not if it was an accident?
So covering up Jeremy's innocence was an easier option than admitting 'an accident' involving the death of the main suspect who had already attempted suicide? Also before messing with the rifle, are we to believe that no one checked to see if there were any vital signs or that the rifle was loaded?
If there were such an accident, and for whatever reason, EP decided to hush it up, how would that involve framing Jeremy? They would have known Sheila was guilty and just gone ahead with her as the culprit ..... How does Jeremy then enter the frame?
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Firstly, Sheila was not spotlessly clean, as the police and the prosecuting authorities would have us all believe - she had blood running out from both corners of her mouth, she had blood running out of her nostrils, she had blood on her right arm, blood upon her right wrist and the top part of her right hand. She had spots of blood on the soles of her feet. She had a large triangular bloodstain on the upper right hand side of her nightdress, she had aspirated blood splashes on the front part of her nightdress adjacent to the aforementioned bloodstain. She had what appears to be bloodied fingermarks on the front lower right hand side of her nightdress similar to the bloodied finger marks found on the edge of the kitchen worktop downstairs, and the open pages of the bible in the bedroom. She had a bruised neck, and in the reverse of her nightdress was another huge bloodstain not replicated on the carpet / rug beneath where she ended up being photographed. She also had bloodied fingermarks on her throat, as if someome had either tried to stem the flow of blood which sprang from the top fatal wound, or to which she used the finger or the top part of her own right hand in reaction to being shot there a second time - now if those bloodied finger marks on her throat were caused by her own bloodied fingers, then how did her right hand find its way back on top of the rifle, in particular, to be shown resting upon the ammunition magazine, and trigger guard area?
So, the truth is not that Sheila was spotlessly clean, at all...
Secondly, according to the police evidence, none of Ralph Bambers blood and none of Sheila's blood was found anywhere inside the main bedroom (except for on Sheila's body), which is quite remarkable, considering that Ralph is supposed to have been shot there in the bedroom on no less than four occasions, and Sheila shot once there (or twice, so far as the official version goes). How strange then that none of the bloodstain on the reverse of Sheila's nightdress duplicated itself upon the rug / carpet beneath where her body ended up being photographed - since according to the police case only spits of June Bambersblood were found on the rug beneath her body? This is even more odd because if the blood on the reverse of Sheila's nightie was her own blood, why didn't some of it get transferred on the rug beneath her body, because in the staged photographs, Sheila is shown to be laying flat on the bedroom caroet upon her back? So, none of Sheila's blood anywhere at all on that bedroom carpet, despite the suggestion that she had been shot there, not once, but twice. Then there is the mystery of why there is not one drop of Ralph Bambers blood at all, presentm found, or detected on the side of the bed where we are told Ralph Bamber had been sleeping, or on the carpet at his side of the bed, which surely would have left a trail of blood thriughout the bedroom along the landing, all the way downstairs into the kitchen of his death scene? But, none of his blood anywhere in the house, except for inside the kitchen...
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How did Sheila end up on the bedroom floor parrallel to the left hand edge of her parents bed, with only drops of her mothers blood upon the rug beneath her body, and elsewhere on the bedroom carpet? If anything, it tends to suggest that June had already been shot, and had gotten out of bed on the right hand side, and moved back and forth in the bedroom, visiting the area of the carpet upon which Sheila eventually was laid out and staged by police?
Now, if June was shot prior to (the police scenario which was that) Sheila had been shot twice in the bedroom, in the location where her body was eventually photographed, then June must surely have already been dead by the time of Sheila' shooting in the same bedroom...
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Much, if not all the blood on the bedroom carpet must have dried, prior to Sheila re-entering the bedroom (returning there much later after shooting her mother many hours beforehand)...
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But there simply wasn't the need for duplicity, was there? Sheila was shot in the line of duty, end of. The problem comes when a lie, however small, is told,because another is required to cover it.
Yes, there was, and yes, the senior officers restaged the scene during the performance of familiars after 9 O'clock. The stage managing that took place was never intended to frame Jeremy for the murders, the police did what they did to save their own backsides. Once they went down that path, it was too late later on for them to hold their hands up and tell the truth about what had really taken place after police first entered the farmhouse, and later when senior officers took control of the scene and performed familiars, before handing the scene over to SOCO at 10 O'clock...
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I believe that had not Sheila been shot upstairs in the bedroom by police whilst familiars were being performed after 9 O'clock, that police would have told the truth about what took place when the firearms officers first entered (7.30am) the farmhouse, and Sheila shot during a struggle, as PS Woodcock squeezed through a narrow gap of the kitchen door. There would have been no need for a cover up, but for the fact that later on whilst senior officers performed familiars around the body of Sheila in the bedroom, a loaded rifle which had been resting at the bedroom window from as long ago as around 7.15am (spotted by WPC Julia Jeapes, prior to entry into the farmhouse by firearms officers) became discharged whilst it was being used on her body as part of a measuring exercise...
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I believe that had not Sheila been shot upstairs in the bedroom by police whilst familiars were being performed after 9 O'clock, that police would have told the truth about what took place when the firearms officers first entered (7.30am) the farmhouse, and Sheila shot during a struggle, as PS Woodcock squeezed through a narrow gap of the kitchen door. There would have been no need for a cover up, but for the fact that later on whilst senior officers performed familiars around the body of Sheila in the bedroom, a loaded rifle which had been resting at the bedroom window from as long ago as around 7.15am (spotted by WPC Julia Jeapes, prior to entry into the farmhouse by firearms officers) became discharged whilst it was being used on her body as part of a measuring exercise...
Senior officers should not have been performing familiars before the crime scene had been handed over and examined by SOCO. It is no use anyone making up excuses for the police by trying to argue that it wasn't a murder scene, because lets not overlook the fact that the other four deaths were not suicides, each of the other four victims were murdered by someone. With this in mind, the farmhouse should have been treated as a murder scene, and senior officers should not have been traipsing throughout the farmhouse, interferring with the bodies of victims, and moving guns around a body (Sheila's) before SOCO completed its examination of the crime scene...
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I've mentioned a large rolled-up rug/carpet ( which is near a locker in the main bedroom ) This rug/carpet wouldn't have been there all the time lying there rolled up,so if it had covered a large area of the bedroom floor and was very bloody,it would therefore have been moved prior to photographing the deceased. In other words both June and Sheila WOULD have been moved in order to do this ? Yet EP swore that the bodies hadn't been moved ?
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The facts are, that Sheila had remained barely alive, upstairs on the far side of the bed, on the bed, with only a solitary bullet wound in her throat, from a bullet shot into her at around 7.37am. She did not have two bullet wounds in her neck when the police surgeon, Dr Craig, pronounced her as being dead inside the bedroom, her body being at that stage on the far side of the bed, she only had a solitary bullet wound at that stage. The second fatal chin shot occurred after the arrival of senior officers at just before, or just after 9 O'clock. We know that PI 'Bob' Miller, accompanied the police surgeon at 8.44am when Craig visited the bedroom and pronounced Sheila dead. Miller, also states that Sheila's body at this time was on the far side of the bed, and that upon her neck was what appeared to be a solitary gunshot wound. Later on, DS 'Stan' Jones, and DC 'Mick' Clarke, visited the bedroom and viewed Sheila's body which at that stage was laid out on top of the bed. After travelling with Jeremy to his cottage at Head Street, Goldhanger, they were eventually joined by Ann Eaton, and other relatives. At this time, one or other of these two police officers (or both), confided in Ann Eaton, that Sheila's body had been laid on top of the bed when they had seen it prior to leaving the scene with Jeremy. Several newspaper stories which covered the tragedy, referred Sheila's body having been discovered on the bed, either alongside her mothers body, or upon the bed all by herself. Some reports stated that a rifle was found laying between mother and daughter on the bed, or that there was a rifle on top of Sheila's body. Alternatively, in other newspaper accounts, a bible lay between the two bodies, or in yet other accounts, Sheila had been found on the bed, with a bible on her chest. The police told Ann Eaton and the other relatives that Sheila had only been shot once. Later that morning, Julie Mugford arrived at Jeremy's cottage, and she later went along with the police to Chelmsford hospital morgue to identify the bodies of the five victims, including Sheila. Upon her return to Jeremys cottage, she described how Sheila only appeared to have a single bullet wound in her throat. She demonstrated to the others by placing her pointed finger beneath the chin, and confirmed where she had observed the solitary bullet hole...
At the opening of the inquest, on 14th August 1985, PI Bob Miller, told the Deputy Coroner, that police were satified that Sheila had shot and killed the other four victims, and that she had then gone on to kill herself by way of a solitary shit beneath the chin...
For some inexplicable reason, police appeared to be going iut of their way to promote the idea that Sheila had only been shot once...
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As I've already said,Mike,that the relatives weren't told initially that Sheila had two wounds. I wonder why ? It must have been when Stan Jones came along that he then mentioned that there were two injuries. Then the ferreting began.
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As I've already said,Mike,that the relatives weren't told initially that Sheila had two wounds. I wonder why ? It must have been when Stan Jones came along that he then mentioned that there were two injuries. Then the ferreting began.
Were the relatives initially told how many wounds the others received? Might it simply have been their way of drip feeding the full horror of it rather than giving them the whole story in one hit, ie, all the victims were dead having been shot. Revealing the number of shots wouldn't have altered that fact. I wonder if any of the family even thought to ASK how many shots each had received.
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Were the relatives initially told how many wounds the others received? Might it simply have been their way of drip feeding the full horror of it rather than giving them the whole story in one hit, ie, all the victims were dead having been shot. Revealing the number of shots wouldn't have altered that fact. I wonder if any of the family even thought to ASK how many shots each had received.
No,the amount of wounds/shots to others wasn't mentioned. The reason for mentioning the one shot to Sheila was EP's way of explaining that it was a murder/suicide. Why the two shots were " deliberately " covered up ( if there were two at that time ) I don't know,but this part of the case is indeed debateable.
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Were the relatives initially told how many wounds the others received? Might it simply have been their way of drip feeding the full horror of it rather than giving them the whole story in one hit, ie, all the victims were dead having been shot. Revealing the number of shots wouldn't have altered that fact. I wonder if any of the family even thought to ASK how many shots each had received.
I believe that the relatives assumed that all the other four victims had only been shot once, but in Sheila's case, police who were at Jeremys when Ann Eaton and the other relatives attended, were told by police that Sheila was on the bed, with a solitary shot, confirmed to the relatives by Julie Mugford who identified Sheiila at the mortuary, and upon her return to Jeremys cottage, gesturing where the only visible wound on her throat was, by pointing under her own chin...
Craig and Miller both stated Sheila's bidy was 'ON' the far side of the bed, with a solitary wound in her neck at 8.44am. Jones and Clarke, told Ann Eaton and the other relatives, that Sheila's body was on the bed when they saw it earkier that morning, and that she had shot herself once. JULIE Mugford returned from seeing Sheila at the morgue, and told everyone at Jeremys cottage, that Sheila only had a solitary wound on her neck. MILLER told the inquest that Sheila had killed herself by way of a solutary shot to the throat...
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More proof that police are in it together.
The rape of a 5 year old by a 12 year old boy was met with a lesson to the boy of " do it to someone your own age next time "! when it was first in the media a few months back. The officer in question has taken early retirement------full pension and all that.An Essex DC.!
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I believe that the relatives assumed that all the other four victims had only been shot once, but in Sheila's case, police who were at Jeremys when Ann Eaton and the other relatives attended, were told by police that Sheila was on the bed, with a solitary shot, confirmed to the relatives by Julie Mugford who identified Sheiila at the mortuary, and upon her return to Jeremys cottage, gesturing where the only visible wound on her throat was, by pointing under her own chin...
Craig and Miller both stated Sheila's bidy was 'ON' the far side of the bed, with a solitary wound in her neck at 8.44am. Jones and Clarke, told Ann Eaton and the other relatives, that Sheila's body was on the bed when they saw it earkier that morning, and that she had shot herself once. JULIE Mugford returned from seeing Sheila at the morgue, and told everyone at Jeremys cottage, that Sheila only had a solitary wound on her neck. MILLER told the inquest that Sheila had killed herself by way of a solutary shot to the throat...
Hi Mike, she was 'ON' the far side of the bed, they just didn't mention that they meant the floor and did they use the word 'solitary' or just that she had been shot in the throat and AE assumed it was once (given that it was supposed to be a suicide)? Julie also indicated one shot for Sheila after viewing the bodies, by that time according to your theory, she would have had two.
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I've posted on the wrong thread,however I can just reiterate by saying that 45 officers poured into the farmhouse,17 more than what Jeremy had been originally told.
3 lots of informatives who were nothing to do with the crime scene except to study the aftermath of a shooting.
Imagine the contamination after that lot !!
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I've posted on the wrong thread,however I can just reiterate by saying that 45 officers poured into the farmhouse,17 more than what Jeremy had been originally told.
3 lots of informatives who were nothing to do with the crime scene except to study the aftermath of a shooting.
Imagine the contamination after that lot !!
Rather than the "clinical" explanations that we have been given daily on here, I rather believe it was chaos on that day and nobody treated it like a crime scene? That is why I an so doubtful about GRS and Sheila's hands being bagged up etc. I have tendency to believe that all that was an after thought and that that is what is currently being covered up by the police, both in their witness statements (which are so uncannily the same) and under PII?
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Rather than the rather "clinical" explanations that we have been given daily on here, I rather believe it was chaos on that day and nobody treated it like a crime scene? That is why I an so doubtful about GRS and Sheila's hands being bagged up etc. I have tendency to believe that all that was an after thought and that that is what is currently being covered up by the police, both in their witness statements (which are so uncannily the same) and under PII?
An utter shambles.Where's the reverence when 5 people lay dead ? It was disgusting.No wonder Jeremy cried when he was told about that. He admitted that he didn't like crying,but during operations such as went on,it's not surprising,especially as they all " used " those poor people as props. I'd have been beside myself. How cruel.
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An utter shambles.Where's the reverence when 5 people lay dead ? It was disgusting.No wonder Jeremy cried when he was told about that. He admitted that he didn't like crying,but during operations such as went on,it's not surprising,especially as they all " used " those poor people as props. I'd have been beside myself. How cruel.
I personally that most of this police cover-up is chiefly about them trying to same face?
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I personally that most of this police cover-up is chiefly about them trying to same face?
Of course they are. There's no other reason.
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Hi Mike, she was 'ON' the far side of the bed, they just didn't mention that they meant the floor and did they use the word 'solitary' or just that she had been shot in the throat and AE assumed it was once (given that it was supposed to be a suicide)? Julie also indicated one shot for Sheila after viewing the bodies, by that time according to your theory, she would have had two.
"On" the far side of the bed, means "on the bed", not off it...
Yes, by the time Julie Mugford went to the mortuary to identify the bodies of the five victims, Sheila had most definately been shot twice, but only one bullet wound on her throat was visible to her, now how could that be, who went to all this trouble to disguise the other shot, and why?
Within a week of this deception being performed at the mortuary, 'Bob' Miller was informing the Deputy Coroner at the opening of the inquest held on 14th August 1985, that police were satisfied that Sheila had killed the other four victims, and then had gone on to kill herself, by way of a solitary shot...
Nobody should be in any doubt that the police set out to deceive many by the claim that Sheila had killed herself with a solitary shot from the family rifle...
Even Jeremy was fooled into thinking, that his sister had taken her own life with a single shot...
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"On" the far side of the bed, means "on the bed", not off it...
Yes, by the time Julie Mugford went to the mortuary to identify the bodies of the five victims, Sheila had most definately been shot twice, but only one bullet wound on her throat was visible to her, now how could that be, who went to all this trouble to disguise the other shot, and why?
Within a week of this deception being performed at the mortuary, 'Bob' Miller was informing the Deputy Coroner at the opening of the inquest held on 14th August 1985, that police were satisfied that Sheila had killed the other four victims, and then had gone on to kill herself, by way of a solitary shot...
Nobody should be in any doubt that the police set out to deceive many by the claim that Sheila had killed herself with a solitary shot from the family rifle...
Even Jeremy was fooled into thinking, that his sister had taken her own life with a single shot...
The problem is, it can be interpreted both ways.
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Imagine the situation if Jeremy had killed his sister with two bullets, but police were going out of their way to suggest that she had only been shot once?
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The problem is, it can be interpreted both ways.
I agree!!
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The problem is, it can be interpreted both ways.
I think it's pushing it too far to believe that the term, ' on the far side of the bed", means or meant on the floor next to the bed, the key words being, 'on the' and 'bed'....
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I think it's pushing it too far to believe that the term, ' on the far side of the bed", means or meant on the floor next to the bed, the key words being, 'on the' and 'bed'....
No mention whatsoever of the floor next to the bed...
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Lets take it further, and say that the term 'on the far side of the bed', was reference to the body sat against the bedside cabinet, or upon it, or why not claim it was reference to Sheila's body being inside the wardrobe?
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Lets take it further, and say that the term 'on the far side of the bed', was reference to the body sat against the bedside cabinet, or upon it, or why not claim it was reference to Sheila's body being inside the wardrobe?
'On the ... bed', means precisely what it was, Sheila's body was on the bed...
I believe...
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If you asked someone to get something for you from a bedside cabinet, you would simply say the bedside cabinet ON the right or left side of the bed.
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If you asked someone to get something for you from a bedside cabinet, you would simply say the bedside cabinet ON the right or left side of the bed.
If Sheila's body had been on the floor when Craig and Miller saw it at 8.44am, then it would have been the simplist thing for both of them to have said, 'On the bedroom floor' or 'on the floor', why would a police surgeon and an Essex police detective choose the exact same phrase as to where Sheila's body actually was, by using the duplicate phrase, 'On the far side of the bed', if one or other, or both, meant the body they were talking about by 8.44am, was on the floor, not the bed? And anyway, off go Craig and Miller after their contradictory account, at 8.44am - then along comes 'Stan' Jones, and 'Mick' Clarke, and both enter the bedroom before leaving the scene to accompany Jeremy to his cottage to take a witness statement from him, and no sooner does Ann Eaton and the other relatives turn up, than Jones, or Clarke, or both, are breaking thier necks to inform everybody that Sheila's body was found on the bed in the main bedroom...
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Jones and Clarke entered the bedroom after 9pm, which was some 16 minutes after Craig and Miller saw Sheila's body 'on the far side of the bed', which we are expected to believe actually meant that they saw her body on the floor. OK, but how does that explain why 16 minures or so later, Jones and Clarke saw Sheila's body on the bed?
Why would, and who would move Sheila's body from the floor (after 8.44am) and put her on the bed, at around 9am?
By 10 O'clock, Sheila's body was back on the floor, and she now had two bullet holes, in her throat...
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I agree Mike,you'd say on the floor if that had been the case.
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How did the rifle observed by WPC Jeapes, at 7.15am, that was leaning agaist the window, end up in police photographs taken on or after 10 O'clock, on top of Sheila Caffells, body?
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The case was originally investigated, as beung 'four murders and a suicude, with complications'...
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The case was originally investigated, as beung 'four murders and a suicude, with complications'...
One month later, it had turned into a case of ' five murders, with no complications'...
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There were two main complications during the first month of the investigation, which police thought they could overcome by providing misinformation about how many shots had been fired during the incident? One of the key pieces of information the police suppressed involved a confrontation downstairs in the kitchen between armed police, and Sheila. At this time Sheila got shot in the throat during a struggle with PS Woodcock as he was trying to squeeze through and around a small gap of the kitchen door. The direction this door opened was problematic to Woodcocks entry into the kitchen, because it meant that the muzzle end of the rifle he was carrying, was pointing inwards toward the external wall of the kitchen he was trying to get into, leaving it open to the possibility that someone on the other side of the door could grab the barrel before he could fire a shot off at them ..
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There were two main complications during the first month of the investigation, which police thought they could overcome by providing misinformation about how many shots had been fired during the incident? One of the key pueces of information the police suppressed involved a confrontation downstairs in the kitchen between armed police, and Sheila. At this time Sheila got shot in the throat during a struggle with PS Woodcock as he was trying to squeeze through and around a small gap of the kitchen door. The direction this door opened was problematic to Woodcocks entry into the kitchen, because it meant that the muzzle end of the rifle he was carrying, was point inwards toqard the external wall if the kutchen he was tryubg to get into, leaving it open to the possibility that someone on the other side of the door could grab the barrel before he could fire a shot off at them ..
Why would police suppress that they shot Sheila? Suspects often get killed during armed confrontations, even if it was accidentally, it wouldn't warrant the framing of an innocent man.
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Why would police suppress that they shot Sheila? Suspects often get killed during armed confrontations, even if it was accidentally, it wouldn't warrant the framing of an innocent man.
They didn't suppress the fact that they had shot Sheila, or at least it was not just that police shot Sheila once, it was covered up because after they had shot her, she was pronounced as being dead at 8.44 (one hour after Woodcock shot Sheila in the kitchen during a struggle). That is where it became problematic for Essex police. At 8.44am, Sheila was supposed to have been officially dead, and had been presumed dead from as long ago as 7.37am, when it had been reported from within the farmhouse that two bodies had been found upon entry, the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female...
Once the police surgeon pronounced Sheila as being dead at 8.44am, it prevented the truth being told by police, about Sheila being shot downstairs, pronounced dead upstairs on the bed, and a loaded rifle being taken from its resting place against the bedroom window, and moved onto Sheila's body as part of a training exercise, which went dramatically wrong, because nobody checked the rifle to see if it was still loaded with live rounds, and this led to Sheilas death in yet another twist of fate...
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They didn't suppress the fact that they had shot Sheila, or at least it was not just that police shot Sheila once, it was covered up because after they had shot her, she was pronounced as being dead at 8.44 (one hour after Woodcock shot Sheila in the kitchen during a struggle). That is where it became problematic for Essex police. At 8.44am, Sheila was supposed to have been officially dead, and had been presumed dead from as long ago as 7.37am, when it had been reported from within the farmhoyse that two bodies had been found upon entry, the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female...
Once the police surgeon pronounced Sheila as being dead at 8.44am, it prevened the truth being told by police, about Sheila being shot downstairs, pronounced dead upstairs on the bed, and a loaded rifle being taken from its resting place against the bedroom window, and moved onto Sheila's body as part of a training exercise, which went dramatically wrong, because nobody checked the rifle to see if it was still loaded with live rounds, and this led to Sheilas death in yet another tqist of fate...
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Are you saying you believe that Sheila was shot 'once' by Woodcock on entry to WHF (but wasn't dead) and then again by someone else during the training exercise?
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In the 2011 " Master File ",according to AE's notes,she clearly stated that" Sheila on bed bible on chest. Gun beside her.Shot ( through--crossed out ) under chin ".
Now we all know how precise this woman was and how meticulous at including EVERY detail !!
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AE's notes were obviously written at the time of the tragedy,as included in her scribes was the fact that she was going to phone Freddie.
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In the 2011 " Master File ",according to AE's notes,she clearly stated that" Sheila on bed bible on chest. Gun beside her.Shot ( through--crossed out ) under chin ".
Now we all know how precise this woman was and how meticulous at including EVERY detail !!
She was repeating what she was told by someone else, if the someone else was repeating what they had been told, it explains the confusion.
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AE's notes were obviously written at the time of the tragedy,as included in her scribes was the fact that she was going to phone Freddie.
Are you saying that ut makes her claim more reliable?
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Are you saying that ut makes her claim more reliable?
More or less,as AE didn't miss a thing and had started her notes pretty well from day one,once " Taff " Jones was satisfied with the murder/suicide-----------------and she/they weren't. Though how far she thought that claim would take her,God only knows,as it didn't match up with her/their personal theories.
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Are you saying you believe that Sheila was shot 'once' by Woodcock on entry to WHF (but wasn't dead) and then again by someone else during the training exercise?
Yes, Sheila was originally shot during an altercation between PS Woodcock and herself downstairs in the kitchen. The shot didn't kill her, it stunned her, knocked her out. Police thought she was dead, and her supposed actual death was reported as part of a series of radio messages passed from within the scene and to the control room, described variously as 'the body of one dead male, AND, the body of one dead female', or 'One dead male, one dead female', or 'can you attend the office because police are dealing with an incident at whf, involving a murder, and a suicide', or 'can you contact the police surgeon, regarding two bodies'...
Jeremy believes that Sheila shot herself once, as police entered the kitchen, and that in the turmoil that followed, she did not succeed to kill herself, but managed to flee upstairs, before shooting herself (again) a second time in the bedroom. Like everyone else, Jeremy is entitled to his opinion, or scenario. I disagree with Jeremy regarding his version in many ways, but I do agree with his suggestion that Sheila was shot once downstairs in the kitchen, and once upstairs in the bedroom...
The shot inflicted upstairs in the bedroom, killed her...
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More or less,as AE didn't miss a thing and had started her notes pretty well from day one,once " Taff " Jones was satisfied with the murder/suicide-----------------and she/they weren't. Though how far she thought that claim would take her,God only knows,as it didn't match up with her/their personal theories.
So you will agree that Jeremy's initial claim that his father called him 'about 03:10' and that he called the police about 10 mins later, is more reliable than recent claims that he called police at 03:36?
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Evidence of the altercation between Sheila and Woodcock, is visible on the adjacent wall to the internal kitchen door, and the aga surround, where the barrel of Woodcocks weapon came into contact with - the paint sample (RC/1) handed to DS Davidson(SOCO) by DI 'Ron' Cook at the scene, on 8th August 1985, was taken from the aga surround in the kitchen because Woodcocks weapon which had scratched the underside of the red painted kitchen aga, during the struggle between himself and Sheila, had git sone red paint upon the end of its barrel...
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So you will agree that Jeremy's initial claim that his father called him 'about 03:10' and that he called the police about 10 mins later, is more reliable than recent claims that he called police at 03:36?
The last thing I read was that his father rang at 3am, ( AE's notes ). Jeremy rang JM at 03.15. In Jeremys' words it was 03.25. 03.26,Jeremy is trying to ring his father back--------03.26,Neville is himself phoning the police--------03.26,Jeremy is phoning the police.Simultaneous calls @ 03.26 mistaken for just one ?
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Sheila's body had to have been downstairs in the kitchen at the time the raid team entered the farmhouse, in order for the contents of the various radio messages to be accurate and true. Sheila was shot downstairs, she collapsed in the kitchen, and police thought she had been killed - the contents of the various police radio messages is testimony to that /this, so, how can Jeremys version of events be true, how can Sheila have ran upstairs to the bedroom after shooting herself when the police started to smash the farmhouse door open. Since, if that was true, how could police have found two bodies downstairs, a dead male, and a dead female, a murder, and a suicide?
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So you will agree that Jeremy's initial claim that his father called him 'about 03:10' and that he called the police about 10 mins later, is more reliable than recent claims that he called police at 03:36?
Not really because there are so many different times given,by police,AE's ( secondhand from whoever ) JM's timings,then Jeremys'. I know that Jeremy was kept waiting on the phone,by the police,for 11 mins.
Clock at the police station was 10mins fast,so how are you supposed to try and work out a time that's anywhere near accurate ?
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The last thing I read was that his father rang at 3am, ( AE's notes ). Jeremy rang JM at 03.15. In Jeremys' words it was 03.25. 03.26,Jeremy is trying to ring his father back--------03.26,Neville is himself phoning the police--------03.26,Jeremy is phoning the police.Simultaneous calls @ 03.26 mistaken for just one ?
Nope, Jeremy said he received a call from his father about 03:10, it took him 10 mins to look up the number for the local police. Now the OS states that he called police at 03:36. Point is you can't change the past to suit and that's what the OS is doing.
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Nope, Jeremy said he received a call from his father about 03:10, it took him 10 mins to look up the number for the local police. Now the OS states that he called police at 03:36. Point is you can't change the past to suit and that's what the OS is doing.
But it doesn't seem to matter, that Julie Mugford changed the estimated timing of Jeremys call to her from 3.30am, to 3.15am, or sooner, and the the original timing of Jeremys call to police, timed at 3.36am, was changed to 3.26am, retrospectively? So, its a case of, one rule for 'them', but 'different rules' for Jeremy? If anybody has changed the timings to suit the circumstances, it is the police, and its witnesses. The timed police radio messages are another example, of information having been changed, since messages timed at 7.37, 7.38, 7.42, and elsewhere, 7.45am, makes mention of, 'the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female', or, 'one dead male, one dead female', or, 'can you contact the police surgeon regarding two bodys', or, 'can you attend the office because police are dealing with an incident at whf, involving a murder, and a suicide'...
So, between messages or requests that are recorded between, 7.37 and 7.45am, the messages clearly are dealing with two bodies having been found, once the raid team got into the farmhouse - that is an '8 minute' period of intense activity which quite clearly deals with the discovery or confrontation of two dead bodies, one of the bodys was clearly a male, and the other was clearly a female, the first being referred to as a murder, the second being referred to as a suicide, both references to two dead people, not one, mistaken for the other..,
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Disturbance of the victims bodies, and the guns, by senior officers, during 'informatives', carried out after 9 O'clock, served to retrospectively effect the recorded evidence contained in those 8 minutes of intense activity which had taken place at the scene, long before the arrival of those senior officers, who changed the course of history in the circumstances of the investigation, by ordering the firearms officers initially to report the incident in thier notebooks, and reports, or witness statements, as a case of 'four murders, and a suicide', which it never was...
The truth of the matter, is that when the six man raid team first set foot into the farmhouse, what they were dealing with was 'four murders'. They didn't actually know this until about 8.10am, that morning, when they finally got upstairs and found the other three bodies. But they must have realised by that stage (8.10am) that Sheila had killed the other four victims. Also, they knew that Sheila was still alive, but had been shot soon after entry, shot by PS Woodcock. He would later be the source from which, DI 'Ron' Cook, would be informed that at least 'one person' from amongst the five victims, 'had been shot', or 'killed', or 'had committed suicide' - words similar to these are printed at the commencement of the typed version of the scenes of crime register. Police refuse to release the hand written version, because it would incriminate many officers in the shooting of Sheila, upstairs and downstairs at the farmhouse, it would establish that senior officers took control of the crime scene before SOCO, it would be proved that a catelog of mistakes were made regarding 'at what stage' Sheila had been pronounced dead, when she wasn't...
If anybody was respinsible for changing tge meaning of information, and altering of times of the alleged events, it was / is the police and its witnesses...
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Don't let anyone ever forget, those '8 minutes of activity' at the scene, when police were dealing with 'two bodies', not one. They were dealing with 'one dead male', and 'one dead female', and they were dealing with 'a murder', and 'a suicide'. It could never have been a case of the police, 'mistaking one dead body for another' as the police have since claimed, because there is 'no way in a million years of Sundays', that anyoe could remotely suggest that by 7.45am, Police or anybody else, could describe 'Ralph Bambers death' in the kitchen, as 'a suicide', because he had been shot eight times, and according to the police case no weapon was found anywhere near his body in the kitchen...
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But it doesn't seem to matter, that Julie Mugford changed the estimated timing of Jeremys call to her from 3.30am, to 3.15am, or sooner, and the the original timing of Jeremys call to police, timed at 3.36am, was changed to 3.26am, retrospectively? So, its a case of, one rule for 'them', but 'different rules' for Jeremy? If anybody has changed the timings to suit the circumstances, it is the police, and its witnesses. The timed police radio messages are another example, of information having been changed, since messages timed at 7.37, 7.38, 7.42, and elsewhere, 7.45am, makes mention of, 'the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female', or, 'one dead male, one dead female', or, 'can you contact the police surgeon regarding two bodys', or, 'can you attend the office because police are dealing with an incident at whf, involving a murder, and a suicide'...
So, between messages or requests that are recorded between, 7.37 and 7.45am, the messages clearly are dealing with two bodies having been found, once the raid team got into the farmhouse - that is an '8 minute' period of intense activity which quite clearly deals with the discovery or confrontation of two dead bodies, one of the bodys was clearly a male, and the other was clearly a female, the first being referred to as a murder, the second being referred to as a suicide, both references to two dead people, not one, mistaken for the other..,
Mike, can you explain how PC Collins saw the body of a female before the police went in the house. Or do you now agree with the explanation given by the police that it was Nevill's body.
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Mike, can you explain how PC Collins saw the body of a female before the police went in the house. Or do you now agree with the explanation given by the police that it was Nevill's body.
There is a strong possibility that this alleged sighting, did not take place at all...
This is because PC Collins would not have been able to mistakenly identify Ralph Bambers body, for that of his daughters body, situated in the corner of the kitchen, as viewed from the vantage point of standing outside the kitchen window looking in. This was because the angle between window and the corner of the kitchen where Ralphs body was sat upon a wooden chair was too acute...
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No radio message appears in any of the police logs, which confirm this account. I think it was introduced later to try and help police cover thier tracks, because although two bodies were downstairs when the raid team entered the farmhouse at around 7.30am, by 8.44am when the police surgeon (Dr Craig) arrived, there was only Ralphs body downstairs in the kitchen. I think Collins account was introduced to try and account for this discrepancy of bodies in the kitchen, at around 7.30, (two) and 8.44am (one). In the logs, identification of 'the body of one dead male', appears before mention of, 'the body of one dead female'. Mention of 'one dead male', appears before mention of, 'one dead female'. Also, mention of, 'a murder', is mentioned in sequential order, before mention of, 'a suicide'...
For PC Collins account to be true, and accurate, mention of the terms, 'the body of one dead female', and, 'one dead female', also, 'a suicide', would be mentioned before references to, 'the body of one dead male', or 'one dead male', and, 'a murder'. Police messed up trying to cover up for the fact that at 7.42am, a 'request was made for the police surgeon to be sent out to the scene (whf) regarding two bodies'...
Add to this, that at 8.10am, 'a further three bodies were found upstairs, five dead in total', tells its own story...
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Anyway, lets look at PC Collins account from the perspective of the body he alleges he saw, being 'behind the kitchen door', from his vantage point of standing outside the kitchen window, looking into the kitchen :-
From his view point at the window he could see in the general durection of three internal kitchen doors, albeit he only had a clear view of only one of these doors, the door in question being the internal door which devided the main kitchen from the pantry. Now if there had been a body behind this door, from Collins vantage point, it would have been inside the pantry. If a body had been in front of this door, the body would be in the kitchen.
,
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Now, dealing with the door through which the raid team and others, who flooded into the main kitchen of the farmhouse. On the kitchen side of this Internal door was Ralph Bambers body. If PC Collins could see this door from his vantage point, any body inside the main kitchen, could only be accurately described as being in front of this door. The internal door we are now talking about, separates the maun kitchen, from the back kitchen and hallway. Let no-one be in any doubt that PC Colluns could not possibly have had a clear view of the kitchen side of this door (in front of the door) because of the acute angle required. So, there we have it, if Collins had seen a body behind a kitchen door, it could not have been Ralph Bambers body, because from PC Collins vantage point, Ralphs body was in front of that door, not behind it. Hence, he could not have mistakenly identified Ralphs body for Sheila's...
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There is a strong possibility that this alleged sighting, did not take place at all...
This is because PC Collins would not have been able to mistakenly identify Ralph Bambers body, for that of his daughters body, situated in the corner of the kitchen, as viewed from the vantage point of standing outside the kitchen window looking in. This was because the angle between window and the corner of the kitchen where Ralphs body was sat upon a wooden chair was too acute...
Fair enough Mike, but I have problem understanding how Sheila's body could have ended upstairs if the police had shot her downstairs. If she had been shot by them they would have been in close attendance trying to give aid. If she had shot herself before they went in, it's at least believable that they just took it for granted she was dead and neglected to take her pulse and then went upstairs leaving her.
Surely there would have been policemen still with her if the police had only just shot her, so slipping upstairs when they weren't looking seems almost impossible. They would have to have just assumed she was dead to just go and leave her.
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Fair enough Mike, but I have problem understanding how Sheila's body could have ended upstairs if the police had shot her downstairs. If she had been shot by them they would have been in close attendance trying to give aid. If she had shot herself before they went in, it's at least believable that they just took it for granted she was dead and neglected to take her pulse and then went upstairs leaving her.
Surely there would have been policemen still with her if the police had only just shot her, so slipping upstairs when they weren't looking seems almost impossible. They would have to have just assumed she was dead to just go and leave her.
More to the point, IF they had just shot her, they would be hardly likely to use a loaded weapon in a training exercise. They would have made sure it was safe.
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Yes, Sheila was originally shot during an altercation between PS Woodcock and herself downstairs in the kitchen. The shot didn't kill her, it stunned her, knocked her out. Police thought she was dead, and her supposed actual death was reported as part of a series of radio messages passed from within the scene and to the control room, described variously as 'the body of one dead male, AND, the body of one dead female', or 'One dead male, one dead female', or 'can you attend the office because police are dealing with an incident at whf, involving a murder, and a suicide', or 'can you contact the police surgeon, regarding two bodies'...
Jeremy believes that Sheila shot herself once, as police entered the kitchen, and that in the turmoil that followed, she did not succeed to kill herself, but managed to flee upstairs, before shooting herself (again) a second time in the bedroom. Like everyone else, Jeremy is entitled to his opinion, or scenario. I disagree with Jeremy regarding his version in many ways, but I do agree with his suggestion that Sheila was shot once downstairs in the kitchen, and once upstairs in the bedroom...
The shot inflicted upstairs in the bedroom, killed her...
1) the miedocal evidence shows the two shots were fired seconds apart so there was not enough time between shots for her to be shot in different rooms
2) she would have been too badly injured ot have walked up the stairs evne had the second shot not been fired until minutes later
3) if she stood upright and even tried to walk she would have bled down her gown but that didn't happen because she never stood upright after being shot. How did she get upstairs, did she sit on a flying carpet?
The wild claims of her being shot downstairs are just that, wild ridiculous claims and your claim you saw photos of her body in the kitchen and in the bed were out and out lies you made up. We know they are lies not only because the evidence conclusively proves she was shot on the floor where her body was found (including a pool of blood on the floor near where her body was) but also because if police had decided to move her body right away then there is no way they would have taken photos. Who would decide, "we are going to move the body before anyone else comes in so that no one knows she was found on the kitchen floor/ in bed and will lie about where we find her but will take photos first so peopel can find out we lied and moved her"
Would anyone do that?
You should have at least made up lies that were credible and at this point at just wasting your times with these wild things you keep repeating.
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More to the point, IF they had just shot her, they would be hardly likely to use a loaded weapon in a training exercise. They would have made sure it was safe.
Hi Caroline.
I think there seems to be some misunderstanding. Mike can correct me if I've got this wrong, but I think that he believes that the police shot Sheila as they broke into the house and that it occurred well before the training exercise. He also thinks that the police accidentally shot Sheila a second time as they staged the body to look like suicide on the bedroom floor upstairs . The arguments about that as a possibility are a separate matter.
My simple point is that it's at least believable that Sheila regained consciousness and found her way upstairs, if the police had just assumed she was dead when they first saw her on the floor of the kitchen, but much harder to explain if they had just shot her as they broke in.
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Hi Caroline.
I think there seems to be some misunderstanding. Mike can correct me if I've got this wrong, but I think that he believes that the police shot Sheila as they broke into the house and that it occurred well before the training exercise. He also thinks that the police accidentally shot Sheila a second time as they staged the body to look like suicide on the bedroom floor upstairs . The arguments about that as a possibility are a separate matter.
My simple point is that it's at least believable that Sheila regained consciousness and found her way upstairs, if the police had just assumed she was dead when they first saw her on the floor of the kitchen, but much harder to explain if they had just shot her as they broke in.
Mike has alleged a lot of different things ranging from Sheila shooting herself as police entered and then them shooting her again, to them shooting her then dragging her body to the bed upstairs and shooting her again hours later. He has also claimed he had seen photos of her body in the kitchen and in the bed...
None of his stories ever:
1) comport with the physical/medical evidence. There was a pool of blood on the floor of the bedroom proving that is where she was shot, medical evidence establishes the shots were fired mere seconds apart and the blood stains prove she was sitting while shot and after being shot, she had not ever stood upright.
2) provide any rational reason why police would decide to move her body
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Hi Caroline.
I think there seems to be some misunderstanding. Mike can correct me if I've got this wrong, but I think that he believes that the police shot Sheila as they broke into the house and that it occurred well before the training exercise. He also thinks that the police accidentally shot Sheila a second time as they staged the body to look like suicide on the bedroom floor upstairs . The arguments about that as a possibility are a separate matter.
My simple point is that it's at least believable that Sheila regained consciousness and found her way upstairs, if the police had just assumed she was dead when they first saw her on the floor of the kitchen, but much harder to explain if they had just shot her as they broke in.
Hi Gemma, I did ask for clarification as to what Mike was suggesting- please see the comments below :).
Are you saying you believe that Sheila was shot 'once' by Woodcock on entry to WHF (but wasn't dead) and then again by someone else during the training exercise?
Yes, Sheila was originally shot during an altercation between PS Woodcock and herself downstairs in the kitchen. The shot didn't kill her, it stunned her, knocked her out. Police thought she was dead, and her supposed actual death was reported as part of a series of radio messages passed from within the scene and to the control room, described variously as 'the body of one dead male, AND, the body of one dead female', or 'One dead male, one dead female', or 'can you attend the office because police are dealing with an incident at whf, involving a murder, and a suicide', or 'can you contact the police surgeon, regarding two bodies'...
Jeremy believes that Sheila shot herself once, as police entered the kitchen, and that in the turmoil that followed, she did not succeed to kill herself, but managed to flee upstairs, before shooting herself (again) a second time in the bedroom. Like everyone else, Jeremy is entitled to his opinion, or scenario. I disagree with Jeremy regarding his version in many ways, but I do agree with his suggestion that Sheila was shot once downstairs in the kitchen, and once upstairs in the bedroom...
The shot inflicted upstairs in the bedroom, killed her...
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There were only originally six firearms officers who entered the farmhouse when PS Woodcock shot Sheila during a confrontation as he was squeezing through a small gap in the internal kitchen door (which led from the rear hallwat, back kitchen / into the main kitchen, or vice versa). Once Sheila was shot, she reacted in such a manner which caused the officer to believe she had died. Other officers who entered the kitchen behind Woodcock, reported over the radio that 'the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female, found on entry' to the kitchen (7.37am), followed by a second radio message at 7.38am, with 'one dead male, one dead female'...
After Sheila had been shot, a further two firearms officers were drafted into the farmhouse because six were inadequate to search such a huge building...
I have never claimed that the police carried her body upstairs, because they didn't...
It is understood that she made her way upstairs from the kitchen by way of the small spiral staircase situared in the corner of the kitchen, which led directly upstairs to the top landing, close to the bedroom doors...
There was medical / expert evidence given during the trial that Sheila could have got up and walked around at some stage after the first shot, no evidence was called to say that both shots had been fired one immediately after the other. That is a myth, it was an explanation introduced by the police as part of the cover up to hide for the fact that Sheila had been shot once downstairs by Woodcock in the line of duty, and secondly during the performance of familiars by senior officers upstairs in the bedroom...
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There were only originally six firearms officers who entered the farmhouse when PS Woodcock shot Sheila during a confrontation as he was squeezing through a small gap in the internal kitchen door (which led from the rear hallwat, back kitchen / into the main kitchen, or vice versa). Once Sheila was shot, she reacted in such a manner which caused the officer to believe she had died. Other officers who entered the kitchen behind Woodcock, reported over the radio that 'the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female, found on entry' to the kitchen (7.37am), followed by a second radio message at 7.38am, with 'one dead male, one dead female'...
After Sheila had been shot, a further two firearms officers were drafted into the farmhouse because six were inadequate to search such a huge building...
I have never claimed that the police carried her body upstairs, because they didn't...
It is understood that she made her way upstairs from the kitchen by way of the small spiral staircase situared in the corner of the kitchen, which led directly upstairs to the top landing, close to the bedroom doors...
There was medical / expert evidence given during the trial that Sheila could have got up and walked around at some stage after the first shot, no evidence was called to say that both shots had been fired one immediately after the other. That is a myth, it was an explanation introduced by the police as part of the cover up to hide for the fact that Sheila had been shot once downstairs by Woodcock in the line of duty, and secondly during the performance of familiars by senior officers upstairs in the bedroom...
So if Sheila managed to get herself upstairs after the first shot it's fairly certain that having been shot in the neck she'd have left a tell tale blood trail down the front of her nightdress and/or on the stairs.
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So if Sheila managed to get herself upstairs after the first shot it's fairly certain that having been shot in the neck she'd have left a tell tale blood trail down the front of her nightdress and/or on the stairs.
Hi April, although I don't agree with Mike on this and rather think she was shot upstairs, nevertheless concerning any blood trail the police are silent on this and we have no photos that show any blood trails? So it is possible there was blood in certain places but ignored? It is obvious we don't have the whole story as to what went on that night, other than scipios wild, but imaginative and entertaining guesses?
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Hi April, although I don't agree with Mike on this and rather think she was shot upstairs, nevertheless concerning any blood trail the police are silent on this and we have no photos that show any blood trails? So it is possible there was blood in certain places but ignored? It is obvious we don't have the whole story as to what went on that night, other than scipios wild, but imaginative and entertaining guesses?
Grahame, HAD she been capable of getting herself up a spiral staircase, I don't imagine it would have been done in a hurry. IMO, she couldn't possible have got from bottom to top without blood evidence on her person/nightdress and would have been in no fit state to lift her arms to divest herself of a bloodied nightdress to put on a clean one.
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I strongly believe that Sheila was shot or shot herself where she was found.
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Me too,Alias.
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I strongly believe that Sheila was shot or shot herself where she was found.
Where do YOU believe she was found, Alias? There seem to be three options. 1. ON the (far side of) the bed. 2. OFF the bed (on the floor, on the far side) 3. As one of two bodies said to have been seen in the kitchen.
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Floor----bed------floor.
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Floor - where she was found.
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Floor - where she was found.
Me too!
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Me too!
Same again here!
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I strongly believe that Sheila was shot or shot herself where she was found.
The position of her body appears to be where people have performed CPR? The blood on her face appears to show this, especially that trail going up to her eye, indicating that her head was much further back that when the picture was taken. Just as if someone had tried to revive her? It may not be of course, but being a first aider that is what naturally came to my mind. Compressions to her chest would naturally cause the blood to be forced from her mouth and nose. You put a persons head backward in oder to clear the airway.
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The position of her body appears to be where people have performed CPR? The blood on her face appears to show this, especially that trail going up to her eye, indicating that her head was much further back that when the picture was taken. Just as if someone had tried to revive her? It may not be of course, but being a first aider that is what naturally came to my mind. Compressions to her chest would naturally cause the blood to be forced from her mouth and nose. You put a persons head backward in oder to clear the airway.
I wouldn´t know about that.
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I wouldn´t know about that.
No you probably wouldn't Alias. But the nurses here noticed it and even suggested it.
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You have to forget about the 2nd shot, forget abour the second wound, forget about blood on her face and neck from the second bullet wound, forget about the blood which ran from the sjides of her mouth, forget aboubt the bloid which ran from her nostril and pooled in her left eye socket - and once you ignore those features for a moment, you are left with the bare basics of the original shot, its wound, and the hardly visible vertical bloodstain, on her neck...
Then, add to this, Sheila's missing light blue petty coat...
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This is why I said floor----bed-----floor.
That the first shot came when she was sitting on the floor,awkwardly,I assume judging by the angle of the first bullet. Then she got herself onto the bed and when the police were inside the farmhouse,they heard a noise,which would have been Sheila spluttering with the blood running down her throat,so thinking that she could be revived,lifted her on to a flatter surface----the floor,in order to perform CPR.
Did she fire that second shot,or was it an accident by the semi-automatic that was cocked ready,and went off in the process as officers were attempting to make the rifle safe?
On entering,the officers would have seen Sheila on the bed,but they made such a muck of the investigation that it went downhill from then onwards as they tried to cover their mistakes.
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There is only a solitary shot inflicted in Sheila Caffells throat by the stage photographs of her were takwn on the bwd...
These photographs, which only show one bullet hole in her neck, were taken before her body ended up on the bedroom floor. The two shots inflicted into Sheila's neck were not fired simultaneously. Each shor lunjed to separate historical events associated with them...
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Hi April, although I don't agree with Mike on this and rather think she was shot upstairs, nevertheless concerning any blood trail the police are silent on this and we have no photos that show any blood trails? So it is possible there was blood in certain places but ignored? It is obvious we don't have the whole story as to what went on that night, other than scipios wild, but imaginative and entertaining guesses?
Hi Mr Gee
Does anybody still believe that Nevill was also found by the police in the same position he is in in the photographs? I know that Mike has made the point that the body must have already been in rigor mortis before it was put like that with his head in the coal bucket. I think there's a thread where Martin and Patti argued about that. Martin supported Mike's view and Patti said she thought the killer actually shot Nevill while he was in that position and that his body immediately froze into cadaveric spasm. Sorry I don't have the link to hand. I have to say that I agree with Martin on that one if not on some of his more speculative theories. Cadaveric spasm just doesn't work like that.
Do some people just want to support what the police say in the face of any evidence to the contrary? Not saying you do :)
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So if Sheila managed to get herself upstairs after the first shot it's fairly certain that having been shot in the neck she'd have left a tell tale blood trail down the front of her nightdress and/or on the stairs.
Not necessarily, April. I believe Jeremy thinks, as Mike Tesko used to, that Sheila first shot herself in the kitchen and was unconscious for some time before the police broke in. If this did happen and Sheila regained consciousness, say half an hour later, the bleeding may well have stopped by then. :)
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Not necessarily, April. I believe Jeremy thinks, as Mike Tesko used to, that Sheila first shot herself in the kitchen and was unconscious for some time before the police broke in. If this did happen and Sheila regained consciousness, say half an hour later, the bleeding may well have stopped by then. :)
Sorry if I have got this wrong, but are you saying the police 'knew' that Sheila had been alive when they broke in? Because if so, they would know she was guilty of four murders and yet they went on to frame an innocent man - can you suggest a reason why they might do that?
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The second part of her nightie set (light blue petty coat) is missing, it was removed because it was understood to be heavily stained with her own blood, and blood from the other victims. It was originally sent to the lab to be examined along with her blue nightie, under exhibit references, ND3 and ND/5...
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The second part of her nightie set (light blue petty coat) is missing, it was removed because it was understood to be heavily stained with her own blood, and blood from the other victims. It was originally sent to the lab to be examined along with her blue nightie, under exhibit references, ND3 and ND/5...
Mike, I have NO idea what it is that you mean by "the second part of her nightie set (light blue petticoat)". The description of petticoat denotes an under garment -the part worn next to the skin- which if it had been "heavily stained with her own blood and blood from other victims" so too would have been the over garment which would have been described as a negligee, front opening all the way through and secured by means of buttons or ties. This does not describe the garment that Sheila was wearing in the photos. I fail to see that if she'd been shot in the neck once whilst downstairs she'd have managed to not only get herself upstairs but change her nightdress without causing further bleeding, not to mention the pain. There is also the question of what she did with the bloodied garment Also to bear in mind is that as she was only at the farm for a few days, she'd hardly have packed a wardrobe of nightwear.
I am really struggling to come to terms with what you appear to be suggesting, that from the word GO police -to cover their own bumbling incompetency which could have been explained away and accepted- completely disregarded that they had a ready made perpetrator and started thinking about who they could frame for it, albeit that they were innocent.
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Sorry if I have got this wrong, but are you saying the police 'knew' that Sheila had been alive when they broke in? Because if so, they would know she was guilty of four murders and yet they went on to frame an innocent man - can you suggest a reason why they might do that?
I don't know why you are playing that game, Caroline, but I have read through your earlier posts when you were a supporter of Jeremy and you have shown yourself to be well familiar with the theory that there was a cover up on account of some mishap which occurred during the raid.
As you well know, the theory is that the police originally found Sheila's body in a different location to the one we see in the photographs and this was related to the relatives who were told that Sheila's body was found on the bed next to that of June. And there are logs which report two bodies being found downstairs and which refer to a female body being found downstairs. Whatever the explanation is for Sheila's body being reported as being found in three different locations, it's easy to understand why the police would want to suppress the truth if it is something which conflicts with the official version. According to this theory the cover up originally had nothing to do with framing Jeremy but eventually led to it.
The basic theory is that the relatives suspected Jeremy and had leverage with the police because they could potentially cause trouble by disclosing the information they had concerning where Sheila's body was found. Ann Eaton was told by a policeman that Sheila's body was found on the bed with a bible on her chest. If that was true and became known, it would prove that it was the police who stage managed the body on the floor.
So, for the police, it became a choice between telling everyone the real truth, that is telling them that they know that Sheila did it but that it was they, the police, who staged managed the body for the official photographs, or conforming to the wishes of the relatives and pursuing a conviction against Jeremy.
Let me try to explain how I became interested in this case. At the site Injustice Anywhere a poster called Supernaut started a thread on the Bamber case which contained links to this site.
http://www.injusticeanywhereforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=123&t=2830
This post by Odusseus helped me form my views on the case
http://www.injusticeanywhereforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=123&t=2830#p118041
When I started reading the posts I couldn't help but be struck by the similarity of the Bamber case to that of Amanda Knox. Supporters of Knox, and I am one of them, believe the Perugian police framed Knox and Solecito to save face. They realised that they had been barking up the wrong tree when they discovered that Rudy Guede was the killer, after they had gotten a coerced statement from Knox implicating Patrik Lumumba who had nothing to do with it. I think that poor Jeremy was the victim of similar face saving behaviour on the part of the police, just as you did not long ago. :)
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I don't know why you are playing that game, Caroline, but I have read through your earlier posts when you were a supporter of Jeremy and you have shown yourself to be well familiar with the theory that there was a cover up on account of some mishap which occurred during the raid
A little rude and decidedly unfriendly, don't you think, Gemma, for a new member to suggest that a long term and valued member, who, presumably you don't know, is playing games.
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The case was based very much on "who you know than what you know",and influence came from those who knew the relatives,i.e.the Carrs,one of whom worked for the Met ( nothing to do with them as they weren't involved with the case ) and the other Carr whose interest lay in the Osea caravan park as an employee, so was naturally biased toward the relatives.
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A little rude and decidedly unfriendly, don't you think, Gemma, for a new member to suggest that a long term and valued member, who, presumably you don't know, is playing games.
You are possibly right, April, but I'm sure Caroline can take care of herself. I would suggest that she is probably the most influential pro guilt writer on the case at the present time, so there is little need for me or anybody else to beat about the bush.
Actually I have been a member for a good while, it's just that I didn't feel ready to post. So you are all like old friends to me. :)
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Sorry if I have got this wrong, but are you saying the police 'knew' that Sheila had been alive when they broke in? Because if so, they would know she was guilty of four murders and yet they went on to frame an innocent man - can you suggest a reason why they might do that?
Not if it was them who shot her? Not saying they did of course. But it may explain why this case appears to have many unanswered questions for some people?
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You are possibly right, April, but I'm sure Caroline can take care of herself. I would suggest that she is probably the most influential pro guilt writer on the case at the present time, so there is little need for me or anybody else to beat about the bush.
Actually I have been a member for a good while, it's just that I didn't feel ready to post. So you are all like old friends to me. :)
You have a way with words, Gemma :)
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It's possibly someone who was " anti-Jeremy" to start with,then changed their stance as well as their ID.
I proceed with caution !!
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Hahaha april think Gemma has been here before ;) ;D ;D ;D
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I don't know why you are playing that game, Caroline, but I have read through your earlier posts when you were a supporter of Jeremy and you have shown yourself to be well familiar with the theory that there was a cover up on account of some mishap which occurred during the raid.
As you well know, the theory is that the police originally found Sheila's body in a different location to the one we see in the photographs and this was related to the relatives who were told that Sheila's body was found on the bed next to that of June. And there are logs which report two bodies being found downstairs and which refer to a female body being found downstairs. Whatever the explanation is for Sheila's body being reported as being found in three different locations, it's easy to understand why the police would want to suppress the truth if it is something which conflicts with the official version. According to this theory the cover up originally had nothing to do with framing Jeremy but eventually led to it.
The basic theory is that the relatives suspected Jeremy and had leverage with the police because they could potentially cause trouble by disclosing the information they had concerning where Sheila's body was found. Ann Eaton was told by a policeman that Sheila's body was found on the bed with a bible on her chest. If that was true and became known, it would prove that it was the police who stage managed the body on the floor.
So, for the police, it became a choice between telling everyone the real truth, that is telling them that they know that Sheila did it but that it was they, the police, who staged managed the body for the official photographs, or conforming to the wishes of the relatives and pursuing a conviction against Jeremy.
Let me try to explain how I became interested in this case. At the site Injustice Anywhere a poster called Supernaut started a thread on the Bamber case which contained links to this site.
http://www.injusticeanywhereforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=123&t=2830
This post by Odusseus helped me form my views on the case
http://www.injusticeanywhereforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=123&t=2830#p118041
When I started reading the posts I couldn't help but be struck by the similarity of the Bamber case to that of Amanda Knox. Supporters of Knox, and I am one of them, believe the Perugian police framed Knox and Solecito to save face. They realised that they had been barking up the wrong tree when they discovered that Rudy Guede was the killer, after they had gotten a coerced statement from Knox implicating Patrik Lumumba who had nothing to do with it. I think that poor Jeremy was the victim of similar face saving behaviour on the part of the police, just as you did not long ago. :)
Game? Sorry you lost me.
Anyway, I was certainly a supporter of Jeremy, however, that doesn't mean that I went along with every wild theory that was bandied about - I had my own views, just as I do now. I have never held with the belief that Sheila moved around the house after the first shot, that Sheila was originally found on the bed or that the police knowingly framed an innocent man. I leave such things to the 'conspiracy theorists'.
Sheila (if responsible) would have been an armed suspect, if she was killed during the siege (accidentally or deliberately in self defense) it would not warrant the big secret cover up that is being claimed here and certainly would not have led to the framing of an innocent Jeremy UNLESS, they thought he was guilty. (however, if they knew Sheila had been alive, then they would know Jeremy was innocent). I think such claims are ridiculous and there is no evidence of it.
I've already said what I think in respect to how AE's confusion occurred re: 'Sheila on the left side of the bed' - simply the word 'floor' was omitted and assumptions were made.
Please don't accuse me of playing games Gemma, I'm entitled to my opinion as much as you are entitled to yours. If you don't like it, then just don't respond - I've posted here for a long time and just because I have changed my mind, doesn't make me the enemy. The whole purpose of a 'debate, is to argue your case with the opposition, not dismiss them as a game player before you even start. I'm sure you'll appreciate me NOT 'beating around the bush'.
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Not if it was them who shot her? Not saying they did of course. But it may explain why this case appears to have many unanswered questions for some people?
Hi Grahame, there have been quite a few suspects that have been killed in such circumstances by police but it doesn't lead to a huge cover up or the framing of an innocent. I don't think you believe this particular theory anymore than I do? :)
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You are possibly right, April, but I'm sure Caroline can take care of herself. I would suggest that she is probably the most influential pro guilt writer on the case at the present time, so there is little need for me or anybody else to beat about the bush.
Actually I have been a member for a good while, it's just that I didn't feel ready to post. So you are all like old friends to me. :)
Out of interest do you feel that because the family were so persistant in taking thier beliefs about the case "higher up the chain" that it came to a point where the police were backed into a corner regarding the investigation?
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Mike, I have NO idea what it is that you mean by "the second part of her nightie set (light blue petticoat)". The description of petticoat denotes an under garment -the part worn next to the skin- which if it had been "heavily stained with her own blood and blood from other victims" so too would have been the over garment which would have been described as a negligee, front opening all the way through and secured by means of buttons or ties. This does not describe the garment that Sheila was wearing in the photos. I fail to see that if she'd been shot in the neck once whilst downstairs she'd have managed to not only get herself upstairs but change her nightdress without causing further bleeding, not to mention the pain. There is also the question of what she did with the bloodied garment Also to bear in mind is that as she was only at the farm for a few days, she'd hardly have packed a wardrobe of nightwear.
I am really struggling to come to terms with what you appear to be suggesting, that from the word GO police -to cover their own bumbling incompetency which could have been explained away and accepted- completely disregarded that they had a ready made perpetrator and started thinking about who they could frame for it, albeit that they were innocent.
Go to the following link, to see what I am talking about:-
http://www.sleep-pretty-nightwear.com
choose category - SLEEP SETS...
Substitute the term I used previously (petty coat) and replace it with the term, 'Robe'...
Police took possession of Sheila's light blue (a) nightie, and (b) robe, exhibit references ND/3 and ND/5...
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Negligee.
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Mike, I have NO idea what it is that you mean by "the second part of her nightie set (light blue petticoat)". The description of petticoat denotes an under garment -the part worn next to the skin- which if it had been "heavily stained with her own blood and blood from other victims" so too would have been the over garment which would have been described as a negligee, front opening all the way through and secured by means of buttons or ties. This does not describe the garment that Sheila was wearing in the photos. I fail to see that if she'd been shot in the neck once whilst downstairs she'd have managed to not only get herself upstairs but change her nightdress without causing further bleeding, not to mention the pain. There is also the question of what she did with the bloodied garment Also to bear in mind is that as she was only at the farm for a few days, she'd hardly have packed a wardrobe of nightwear.
I am really struggling to come to terms with what you appear to be suggesting, that from the word GO police -to cover their own bumbling incompetency which could have been explained away and accepted- completely disregarded that they had a ready made perpetrator and started thinking about who they could frame for it, albeit that they were innocent.
This is where I struggle too April. If they had something to hide, changing from Sheila to Jeremy would make it more likely not less, that the 'whatever' would be discovered (although I don't believe there was such an incident - sorry!).
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I've already said what I think in respect to how AE's confusion occurred re: 'Sheila on the left side of the bed' - simply the word 'floor' was omitted and assumptions were made.
Caroline
Ann Eaton was not confused at all and her note is quite unambiguous and, as Mr Gee points out, she said the same in court, although at first she pretended to think that Julie Mugford had told her (until confronted with the note!). She says that the policeman told her that Sheila's body was on the bed next to June with the rifle between them. You know that perfectly well. Mr Gee drew your attention to that inaccuracy, yet you have repeated it again, just now.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,5797.msg260763.html#msg260763
By the way, I did not post with the intention of discussing your change of position, but because I had a question for Mike. You didn't have to get involved if you didn't want to. On the other hand, I find it hard to ignore misrepresentation.
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Caroline
Ann Eaton was not confused at all and her note is quite unambiguous and, as Mr Gee points out, she said the same in court, although at first she pretended to think that Julie Mugford had told her (until confronted with the note!). She says that the policeman told her that Sheila's body was on the bed next to June with the rifle between them. You know that perfectly well. Mr Gee drew your attention to that inaccuracy, yet you have repeated it again, just now.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,5797.msg260763.html#msg260763
By the way, I did not post with the intention of discussing your change of position, but because I had a question for Mike. You didn't have to get involved if you didn't want to. On the other hand, I find it hard to ignore misrepresentation.
I know what AE stated in court and in her statement. However, we have no idea if the officer in question saw Sheila's body or if he was repeating details second hand from someone else - because we have no idea who the officer was. Therefore her description of the scene is simply an interpretation of what she was told by 'someone' unknown. There is no blood on the bed on the side Sheila is supposed to have been laying and it is obvious that she was shot where she was discovered (on the floor) due to the blood pool on the carpet.
I think misrepresentation is weaving in a second hand comment from someone who didn't witness the scene.
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Out of interest do you feel that because the family were so persistant in taking thier beliefs about the case "higher up the chain" that it came to a point where the police were backed into a corner regarding the investigation?
Hi Jan
I think that there is overwhelming evidence of a cover up even if we don't know precisely what was covered up. So that even if we keep an open mind as to why there are reports of two bodies being found downstairs and a whole series of other discrepancies such as those Reader points out, concerning the phone calls to West and Bonnet, there is obviously something they, the police, don't want us to know, and if the relatives knew what it was, the police were put in a vulnerable position.
Add to that the fact that Robert Boutflour had connections with high ranking policemen and he was convinced that Jeremy was guilty.
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well i dont think they woud hold documents under wraps for all those years if they had nothing to hide.
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Officially, there was none of Sheila's blood on the bedroom carpet, only spots of her mothers blood all over the place. Additionally, from the available photographs it is not possible to say that there was / is no blood at all on the left hand side of the bed, you can't fully see because of the quilt. Yet to be explained is the presence of the huge bloodstain on the rear of Sheila's nightie, which did not transfer itself onto the carpet or rug directly beneath where police staged her body. What I wish to say about that /this, is that if the bloodstain in question was dried enough by the time her body was placed there, there is also a good chance that by the time Sheila was on tge bed, the same huge bloodstain on the rear of her nightdress may also have been dry. If it was dry, where could Sheila have been laying to get that huge bloodstain on the rear of her nightie, which did not get transferred onto the rug or the carpet beneath her body, or as the case may be get transferred onto the bed beneath where she had been laying? The police case is quite specific and clear, they maintain that there was only June Bambers blood on the bedroom carpet, no blood from any of the two child victims, no blood from Ralph Bamber who was suppisedky shot four times in the same bedroom, and no blood at all except on Sheila's nightie at the front. So, we are left with a mysterious bloodstain on the rear of Sheila's nightie, which was not duplicated on the carpet or rug where her body ended up by around 10 am, nor replicated on the bed. So, where was Sheila laying, prior to her body being on the bed, and then the carpet?
What must be clear to everyone by now, is that prior to the taking of scene photographs showing two bullet wounds upon Sheila's throat, and the rifle so very conveniently positioned along the center of her body, her right hand placed around the trigger mechanism, muzzle of rifle barrel resting neatly in the area of her throat, as if someone wanted us to think that this must have been the weapon which had fired both of these shots, and an overturned bible next to her body hiding a large pool of wet blood, the direction of blood flow upin Sheila's neck, running from the corners of her mouth, nostril, and back into the socket of her left eye, is that Sheila must have been in a different position to that shown in photographs taken from around 10 O'clock onwards, in order for the triangular bloodstain on the front upper right of her nightie to materialise. That bloidstain ciuld not possibly have got there in that position on the front upper right hand side of her body, with her laid flat on her back, there where she was photographed by police after 10 O'clock. SHE WAS LAID ON HER RIGHT SIDE at some point beforehand. This factor is there priblematic for the police who are responsible for staging Sheila's body on the bedroom floor, for staging the rifle on her body, placing her hands on the gun, and hiding tell rale bloodstains on the bedroom carpet by placing a bible on top of ut ti try and deceive people into thinking that Sheila had been found as shown in the photographic evidence taken after 10am...
The contradictions in bloodflow evidence shown upon Sheila's face, throat, arm, hand and nightdress clearly shows that her body was staged. It could not have been staged by anyone other than the police...
CPR was initially administered to Sheila prior to Sheila being photographed on the floor around 10am, and later on, only god knows why? Now, if CPR had been admistered before 10 O'clock, which it surely must have been (according to David Shaws account) how ciuld the rifle have been there on the body whilst all of this was going on? Police put the rifle there on her body after tge initial CPR had been administered, abd set tge scene so as to make ut look kije she had shot herself twice by use if tge same gun, when in actual fact she had been shot by two different weapons...
clearly, somebody tried to stop the second wound beneath her chin from bleeding, with no evidence to indicate anyone had tried to stop blood which had much earlier run from the lower of the two bullet wounds...
Police staged the scene after senior officers had done, or were still doing familiars in the farmhouse, from around 9am, onwards...
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Jeremy Bamber could not have shot his sister beneath the chin, killed her, or staged her death scene, as per the police photographs, taken after 10 O'clock. Nobody but the police are responsible for that /this...
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Jeremy did NOT commit this murder. Anyone with half an eye can see how the law has put words into the mouths of the relatives and also the public-----------------because they can !!
Nothing is adding up,hence the discussion. There wouldn't be one if he'd been guilty.
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Jeremy was sat in police patrol car (CA07) with PS 'Oliver' Saxby, when the news that 'all his family inside whf' were said to be to have been 'found dead' inside the farmhouse. So 'distressed' was Jeremy upon being told this, that he immediately blurted out his belief that 'armed men who had entered the house' had 'shot' and 'killed them'. Saxby responded by saying that 'the men with guns who had gone into the farmhouse were police officers', and he questioned 'Jeremys complaint', but Jeremy remained steadfast, and added that, 'they must have shot and killed his family'...
Jeremy maintained that polIce must have shot and killed his family when the men with guns had gone into the premises to end the seige. He believed this to be true, because right up to the point where armed men had gone towards the farmhouse with a view to bringing the matter to a conclusion, everyone present at the scene believed that someone, if not everyone inside the large farmhouse, was still alive by that stage. Even PS Saxby had believed someone had still been alive right up to the point when news was given to Jeremy that his family inside whf were all dead...
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Jeremy was sat in police patrol car (CA07) with PS 'Oliver' Saxby, when the news that 'all his family inside whf' were said to be to have been 'found dead' inside the farmhouse. So 'distressed' was Jeremy upon being told this, that he immediately blurted out his belief that 'armed men who had entered the house' had 'shot' and 'killed them'. Saxby responded by saying that 'the men with guns who had gone into the farmhouse were police officers', and he questioned 'Jeremys complaint', but Jeremy remained steadfast, and added that, 'they must have shot and killed his family'...
Jeremy maintained that polIce must have shot and killed his family when the men with guns had gone into the premises to end the seige. He believed this to be true, because right up to the point where armed men had gone towards the farmhouse with a view to bringing the matter to a conclusion, everyone present at the scene believed that someone, if not everyone inside the large farmhouse, was still alive by that stage. Even PS Saxby had believed someone had still been alive right up to the point when news was given to Jeremy that his family inside whf were all dead...
The timing of exactly when news of his family's deaths was broken to Jeremy (by DS 'Stan' Jones) was also a significant event, since DS Jones did not arrive at the scene until just after 9 O'clock that morning...
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So, it took about an hour and a half after police first entered the farmhouse and found the bodies of his family (between 7.37 and 8.10am) for DS 'Stan' Jones, to break the news to Jeremy (about 9.30am). Furthermore, before DS 'Stan' Jones broke this news to Jeremy, he had already been inside the farmhouse and seen Sheila's body on the bed with a single shot in her throat...
Police have failed to explain the reason in the delay of informing Jeremy of all the deaths?
The reason for this initial delay in breaking the news to him, was because the operation inside the farmhouse had dramatically gone pearshaped, with the disappearence of a female (previously believed to have been dead) from the region of the kitchen, ending upstairs on the bed. The dusappearence was first noticed at around 8.15am, when DCI Harris, and DCI Gibbons, in the company of PI Montgomery entered the farmhouse, after a message had been passed to signal the end of the operation with five reported to be dead (two bodies downstairs, the other three bodies upstairs)...
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To be pondered, is what was happening inside the farmhouse, between 8.10am, and 9.30am...
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To be pondered, is what was happening inside the farmhouse, between 8.10am, and 9.30am...
We know that at 8.15am, that DCI 'George' Harris, DCI 'Terry' Gibbons, along with police Inspector, 'Ivor' Montgomery, all went into the main kitchen, and that by this stage, there were 11 outsiders, inside the farmhouse, with the five victims. At this stage, ACC Peter Simpson requested the DCI Harris, make contact with him from the scene via the land line telephone. So whatever that conversation was about we are simply left in the dark about officially, but by all accounts 'George' Harris talked to 'Peter Simpson via the land line at the scene, for about 15 minutes. What we also know is that during this 15 minute period, that neither, Harris, Gibbons, nor Montgonery left the main kitchen, so it should be obvious that Harris used the round finger dial phone at around 8.15am, to contact Peter Simpson, using the phone which one hour and forty five minutes later, was photographed by PC David Bird, with its handset off its cradle resting upon the kitchen worktop...
By 8.44am, Police Inspector 'Bob' Miller, and the police surgeon, Dr Craig, entered the farmhouse. By this stage, no less than 15 people had traipsed through the difderent rooms at the scene, prior to SOCO takibng control of the crime scene...
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Other officers arrived at the scene and poured into the farmhouse - PS Adams entered the main bedroom, and noted that the victims head was closer to a bedside cabinet in photographs taken later by PC Bird. He was the 16th person to traipse through the crime scene. Then came DCI 'Taff' Jones (17th), then came DS 'Stan' Jones (18th), and 'Mick' Clarke (19th). DCI CLARKE was next to enter the crime scene (20th), followed by the coroners officer, PC Wright (21st)...
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Jeremy Bamber could not have shot his sister beneath the chin, killed her, or staged her death scene, as per the police photographs, taken after 10 O'clock. Nobody but the police are responsible for that /this...
I should think that if he shot her under the chin he must have been a contortionist if she as sitting down as the guilters say she was?
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I should think that if he shot her under the chin he must have been a contortionist if she as sitting down as the guilters say she was?
Yes, that is another strange thing. Skippy tried to explain this, but it came out all funny. I laughed a bit about it.
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I should think that if he shot her under the chin he must have been a contortionist if she as sitting down as the guilters say she was?
I haven't said that :P
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After 'Ron' Cooks arrival at the scene, at 9.20am, he too was shown around the various crime scenes inside the farmhouse. He became the 22nd person to traipse through the rooms of the farmhouse, before senior officers handed the scene over to SOCO, at 10 O'clock...
Why wasn't the farmhouse sealed off to everybody after 8.10am, until Soco started and finished thier examination of the scene?
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After 'Ron' Cooks arrival at the scene, at 9.20am, he too was shown around the various crime scenes inside the farmhouse. He became the 22nd person to traipse through the rooms of the farmhouse, before senior officers handed the scene over to SOCO, at 10 O'clock...
Why wasn't the farmhouse sealed off to everybody after 8.10am, until Soco started and finished thier examination of the scene?
Added into this conundrum are the claims that three different police officers removed the rifle from Sheila's body, step forward, 'Ron' Cook, step forward, 'Ivor' Montgomery, and step forward, PS Woodcock - so we have three police officers fighting eachother to remove the same rifle from Sheila's body (I don't believe it)...
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I haven't said that :P
Because you are a cut above others Caroline. ;D
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But...
we have a problem, officers, because 'Ron' cook claims he removed the rifle from Sheila's body and placed it against the bedroom window, in time for PC 'David' Bird to photograoh it in situ against the aforementioned bedroom window, as shown in photograph 23. Cook testified that he removed the rifle at a time when there was only himself, and the other three SOCO's present in the farmhouse, so prey tell us, can somebody educate us as to how PS Woodcock could possibly have been the first person to remove the rifle from Sheila, if 'Ron' Cook had removed the rifle already, at a time when only four SOCO officers were present inside the main bedroom, infact, they were the only ones inside the entire farmhouse when Cook removed the rifle from Sheila and placed it against the bedroom window...
How COULD Woodcock remove the rifle from Sheila's body and make it safe, if Cook had already removed it, and it was then resting against the bedroom window?
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Even more bizarre, how could 'Ivor' Montgomery, remove the same rifle from Sheila's body, that 'Ron' Cook, and, or PS Woodcock had already removed, it?
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Because you are a cut above others Caroline. ;D
Awww! Ta! :) x
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So many contradictions. So much conflicting evidence. It's worth a re-trial if nothing else.
A blind man on a galloping horse can see that this trial was flawed.
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So many contradictions. So much conflicting evidence. It's worth a re-trial if nothing else.
A blind man on a galloping horse can see that this trial was flawed.
Now that I do agree with!
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Caroline, how do you think Sheila and Jeremy each were placed when he shot her - which positions were they in approximately?
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So many contradictions. So much conflicting evidence. It's worth a re-trial if nothing else.
A blind man on a galloping horse can see that this trial was flawed.
Hi Lookout,
Yes, these particular 'contradictions' are worth trying to unravel, because those of us who would like justice in this case to be done, know that police stage managed Sheila's body on the floor with the rifle on top, and bible alongside. Now, 'Ron'Cook testified that when he removed the rifle from Sheila's body and placed it against the bedroom window, that there was only himself, and the other three SOCO's present inside the farmhouse, so neither 'Ivor' Montgomery, nor PS Woodcock, could have been present when 'Ron' Cook remoced the rifle he describes removing and leaning against the bedroom window. Logic dictates, that the event of removing a rifle from Sheila's body as described by 'Ivor' Montgomery, and PS Woodcock, must have occurred, either before the scene was handed over to SOCO by 10 O'clock, or later, once the rifle was repositioned back onto the body in the stage managing process, after 'Ron' Cook had already removed it, previously?
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Hi Lookout,
Yes, these particular 'contradictions' are worth trying to unravel, because those of us who would like justice in this case to be done, know that police stage managed Sheila's body on the floor with the rifle on top, and bible alongside. Now, 'Ron'Cook testified that when he removed the rifle from Sheila's body and placed it against the bedroom window, that there was only himself, and the other three SOCO's present inside the farmhouse, so neither 'Ivor' Montgomery, nor PS Woodcock, could have been present when 'Ron' Cook remoced the rifle he describes removing and leaning against the bedroom window. Logic dictates, that the event of removing a rifle from Sheila's body as described by 'Ivor' Montgomery, and PS Woodcock, must have occurred, either before the scene was handed over to SOCO by 10 O'clock, or later, once the rifle was repositioned back onto the body in the stage managing process, after 'Ron' Cook had already removed it, previously?
I fully agree with you Mike. So many things just don't add up at all. Plus there was a strong influence which determined Jeremys' conviction. Unlawful,or what ?
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Hi Lookout,
Yes, these particular 'contradictions' are worth trying to unravel, because those of us who would like justice in this case to be done, know that police stage managed Sheila's body on the floor with the rifle on top, and bible alongside. Now, 'Ron'Cook testified that when he removed the rifle from Sheila's body and placed it against the bedroom window, that there was only himself, and the other three SOCO's present inside the farmhouse, so neither 'Ivor' Montgomery, nor PS Woodcock, could have been present when 'Ron' Cook remoced the rifle he describes removing and leaning against the bedroom window. Logic dictates, that the event of removing a rifle from Sheila's body as described by 'Ivor' Montgomery, and PS Woodcock, must have occurred, either before the scene was handed over to SOCO by 10 O'clock, or later, once the rifle was repositioned back onto the body in the stage managing process, after 'Ron' Cook had already removed it, previously?
So, I have isolated 'Ron' Cooks involvement where he removed the rifle from Sheila's body, and placed it against the bedroom window, at a time when no-one but he himself, and the other three SOCO's were present inside the farmhouse...
I can now reveal that PS Woodcock removed the rifle from Sheila's body at 11.15am...
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Since, 'Ivor' Montgomery, does not state a particular time to his removal of the rifle from Sheila's body (unlike, 'Ron'Cook, and PS Woodcock, who's accounts can be verified in sequential order and time) if police are responsible for staging Sheila's body prior to the scene being handed over to SOCO at 10 O'clock, it strongly suggests that 'Ivor' Montgomery was responsible for removing the rifle from Sheila's body, after PS Woodcock shot and killed Sheila during a training exercise that went dramatically wrong whilst senior officers were present inside the bedroom, at a time when they were carrying out familiars upon and ariund Sheila's body with a loaded rifle which had not moved from the bedroom window, since WPC Julia Jeapes first spotted the same rifle leaning up against the same window, since before the raid team set off to enter the building at around 7.30am...
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The way I see it, the rifle was removed from Sheila's body on three separate occasions, once by 'Ivor' Montgomery, secondly, by 'Ron'Cook, and lastly, by PS Woodcock...
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The way I see it, the rifle was removed from Sheila's body on three separate occasions, once by 'Ivor' Montgomery, secondly, by 'Ron'Cook, and lastly, by PS Woodcock...
The key event, being the removal of the rifle by 'Ivor' Montgomery, from Sheila's body prior to the crime scene being handed over to SOCO ('Ron' Cook, 'David' Bird, 'David' Hammersley, and 'Neil' Davidson) at 10 O'clock, and the taking of photographs, in particular, with the rifle back on the body, after 'Ivor' Montgomery, had already taken the gun away...
The sequence of events which I have outlined here, supports the argument for the police having stage managed Sheila's body, the rifle was put back on the body after 'Ivor' Montgomery had previously taken it away. Sheila's body and the gun upon it, as shown in the photographs taken by SOCO 'David Bird after 10 O'clock, cannot be the same, uninterferred with pisition she was originally found in by the raid team, because the rifle has clearky been offered to the body (Woodcock), removed from the body (Montgomery), and offered back onto the body by one of the senior officers present inside the bedroom when Woodcock discharged a loaded rifle into the victims brain...
According to David Shaw, DCI 'Taff' Jones was the person who was offering a broom handle onto Sheila's body, with the view of gauging the angles at which the two wounds on her throat could have been discharged almost simaltaneously, but the information I have been given, is that he put the actual rifle back on the body, and gave instructions to SOCO to photograph the body with the rifle positioned on her body for the purpose of satisfying the coroner that Sheila had killed the other victims and then taken her life with use of the rifle...
This, is what really did happen...
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The key event, being the removal of the rifle by 'Ivor' Montgomery, from Sheila's body prior to the crime scene being handed over to SOCO ('Ron' Cook, 'David' Bird, 'David' Hammersley, and 'Neil' Davidson) at 10 O'clock, and the taking of photographs, in particular, with the rifle back on the body, after 'Ivor' Montgomery, had already taken the gun away...
The sequence of events which I have outlined here, supports the argument for the police having stage managed Sheila's body, the rifle was put back on the body after 'Ivor' Montgomery had previously taken it away. Sheila's body and the gun upon it, as shown in the photographs taken by SOCO 'David Bird after 10 O'clock, cannot be the same, uninterferred with pisition she was originally found in by the raid team, because the rifle has clearky been offered to the body (Woodcock), removed from the body (Montgomery), and offered back onto the body by one of the senior officers present inside the bedroom when Woodcock discharged a loaded rifle into the victims brain...
According to David Shaw, DCI 'Taff' Jones was the person who was offering a broom handle onto Sheila's body, with the view of gauging the angles at which the two wounds on her throat could have been discharged almost simaltaneously, but the information I have been given, is that he put the actual rifle back on the body, and gave instructions to SOCO to photograph the body with the rifle positioned on her body for the purpose of satisfying the coroner that Sheila had killed the other victims and then taken her life with use of the rifle...
This, is what really did happen...
Mike I am perfectly prepared to accept that the Police moved Sheila's body in some manner in the master bedroom. Could you just recap at what time WPC Jeapes saw a rifle leaning against the window sill and whether this had disappeared from the said position before the Raid Team stormed the Farm.
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The following sequence occurred, in the shooting dead of Sheila in the bedroom, and the stage managing of her body prior to the scene being handed over to SOCO at 10 'clock:-
(1) - Woodcock offers rifle (taken from its position against bedroom window) onto body of Sheila (discharges fatal round)
(2) - Montgomery removes it...
(3) - DCI 'Taff' Jones replaces it back on body...
(4) - 'Ron' Cook removes rifle from body and places rifle back against window...
(5) - rifle back on body ?
(6) - PS Woodcock removes rifle from body...
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Mike I am perfectly prepared to accept that the Police moved Sheila's body in some manner in the master bedroom. Could you just recap at what time WPC Jeapes saw a rifle leaning against the window sill and whether this had disappeared from the said position before the Raid Team stormed the Farm.
Hi steve_uk,
the rifle first appeared at the bedroom window at about 7.15am, it was not seen there by anyone prior to it being seen at the window after the arrival of the second group of firearms officers who arrived at the scene by 7am. WPC Julia Jeapes was amongst this group of officers. She was instructed to take up a position in the grounds of the farmhouse as part of surveillance and containment duties, in preparation for the raid team to enter the farmhouse to bring the seige to an end. Once she clapped eyes on the rifle, as I understand it, she was instructed to keep 'eyeball' on that rifle, and report immediately to the commander of the firearms operation based at the forward control point, if it moved at all. Whilst keeping eyeball on the rifle, she observed the raid team making its approach toward the farmhouse. At no stage did that rifle move from its position against the bedroom window. It remained there, at all times until the firearms officers left the scene at around 9am...
There can be no way the original members of the raid team could have found Sheila's body on the bedroom floor by 8.10am, with the rifle atop of it, and sge having got two bullet wounds in her neck, because the rifle at the window did not move from there at all until the operation concluded at around 9am, and WPC Julia Jeapes, and others, left the scene...
This is what really did happen...
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How could the rifle at the window, have been on the body of Sheila, when the raid team entered the farmhouse at around 7.30am, in keeping with WPC Julia Jeapes sighting of the sane rifle leaning against the bedroom window at 7.15am?
How did the rifle find its way from the window onto the body between 7.15 and 7.30am, if everyone inside the building had already been killed by Jeremy or anyone else? Movement of the rifle inside the farmhouse during these crucial moments, must surely be proof enough to persuade everybody that Jeremy Bamber could not possibly have killed his sister, nor did he stage manage her body to make police think she had taken her own life?
How could he possibly have had anything at all to do in the transportation of the rifle that fired the fatal bullet (pv/19) which killed Sheila, had moved as if by magic, from the window onto the body, whilst he (Jeremy) was sat in a police car with PS 'Oliver' Saxby, at all times the rifle at the window was in WPC Julia Jeapes sight, between 7.15 and 9am?
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Trawling through the archives I came across this:http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=1387.0
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If Jeremy was the killer, who almost got away with committing the perfect murder, had not the silencer been found downstairs with Sheila's blood inside it, hey - but hang on a minute, if the rifle whch fired the fatal shot that killed her was the rifle at the bedroom window, how can anyone say or suggest that he almost got away with the perfect murder, because if he had killed his sister, what sort of a prat would leave the victims body on the bedroom floor, and the rifle which fired the bullet that killed her was in another part of the bedroom leaning against the bedroom window?
So, rifle that fired the fatal bullet was not found on the body, it was leaning against the window, and the silencer with Sheila's blood inside it, was hidden in a cupboard in another part of the house, yet still the police decided to treat the case, as four murders, and a suicide...
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sorry I got lost - how could Sheila shoot herself and then put the rifle by the window?
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I've read umpteen links,etc,saying that the rifle was found by her side,the same as the Bible was. In Claire Powells' book it describes Sheila as having outstretched arms/hands,accentuating her " well-manicured nails ."
Somebody's got to be wrong.
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sorry I got lost - how could Sheila shoot herself and then put the rifle by the window?
I think the allegation is that Police removed the rifle from atop Sheila's body,rested it against the window sill only to return it to its original place,as Mike would call it "stage-managing" the scene.
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I think the allegation is that Police removed the rifle from atop Sheila's body,rested it against the window sill only to return it to its original place,as Mike would call it "stage-managing" the scene.
I think however it is relevant because some officers did say the body in the photos was in a different position
therefore when the jury considered the photos as part of the evidence as a staged suicide they may have been misled
Also when they were told the body was moved between shots - that may not have been true.
Two things that may have been vital in them coming to their "guilty " verdict.
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I've read umpteen links,etc,saying that the rifle was found by her side,the same as the Bible was. In Claire Powells' book it describes Sheila as having outstretched arms/hands,accentuating her " well-manicured nails ."
Somebody's got to be wrong.
Hi Lookout,
Yes, why so many discrepancies?
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I think the allegation is that Police removed the rifle from atop Sheila's body,rested it against the window sill only to return it to its original place,as Mike would call it "stage-managing" the scene.
Hi Steve_uk,
yes, but to be specific, rifle at window until around 9am, as viewed by WPC Julia Jeapes, between 7.15 and 9am, was taken from the window whilst informatives were being performed after 9am, and was discharged beneath Sheila's chin, by PS Woodcock, whereby, bullet pv/19 entered her brain, and killed her immediately. Rifle was removed by Montgomery, replaced back atop Sheila's body, by DCI 'Taff' Jones, removed a second time by DI 'Ron' Cook, replaced by some unknown officer ( possibly by PI 'Bob' Miller), and then removed by PS Woodcoch at precisely 11.15am..
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PC 'David' Bird, took crime scene images after crime scene had been handed over to SOCI from 10am, that same morning, by which time rifle is photographed atop Sheila's body, after rifle had been returned onto Sheila's body by DCI 'Taff' Jones...
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Caroline, how do you think Sheila and Jeremy each were placed when he shot her - which positions were they in approximately?
To be honest, I haven't given it much thought but there doesn't appear to have been a struggle between them. She could have been standing or sitting for the first shot. It's looks as though the rifle was straight when fired - it's unlikely that Sheila would have held the rifle straight out in front. I think she might have fell to the right side which is why the blood pooled into her armpit. Jeremy may have realised she was still alive and turned her over before firing the second shot. But there is no way of really knowing.
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It is impossible for Jeremy to be responsible for firing the second shot that killed his sister, rifle which fired the shot beneath the chin was seen standing against the bedroom window from 7.15am, onwards - how could Jeremy have got into the farmhouse after 7.15am and shot his sister with use of that rifle?
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It is impossible for Jeremy to be responsible for firing the second shot that killed his sister, rifle which fired the shot beneath the chin was seen standing against the bedroom window from 7.15am, onwards - how could Jeremy have got into the farmhouse after 7.15am and shot his sister with use of that rifle?
I know that only a few of you have seen the photographs of Sheila on the bed with a solitary bullet wound in her throat with very little dried blood in a vertical fashion, and that those of you who have, know the full truth behind the true circumstances of how the police shot Sheila during a training exercise as the rifle from the bedroom window was being used to gauge its length in her hands against the wound on her throat.
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I know that only a few of you have seen the photographs of Sheila on the bed with a solitary bullet wound in her throat with very little dried blood in a vertical fashion, and that those of you who have, know the full truth behind the true circumstances of how the police shot Sheila during a training exercise as the rifle from the bedroom window was being used to gauge its length in her hands against the wound on her throat.
No one else has admitted to seeing such a picture and if had, why aren't they backing you up?
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I know that only a few of you have seen the photographs of Sheila on the bed with a solitary bullet wound in her throat with very little dried blood in a vertical fashion, and that those of you who have, know the full truth behind the true circumstances of how the police shot Sheila during a training exercise as the rifle from the bedroom window was being used to gauge its length in her hands against the wound on her throat.
Who, besides you, have seen it?
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The city of London Police (Colp) investigation knew the truth, but it was 'not in the public interest', or so they said, for the truth to be made public. In recent days, I have been visited by an influential member of MI5, and the record has been put straight, but sadly I have been told that I must not ever post the images of Sheila on the bed showing her with only a solitary shot in her neck, otherwise I will be arrested and charged for posting material withheld under pii...
I have been visited by two secret service officials and advised not to post the images, one of which I took possession of at Ewen Smiths office, and the other which was copied from ACC Simpsons secret file which he kept in his office safe. The one I took possession of in 2004 has since been returned to the secret services via the prison service, but the secret services say they know that I copied the image before sending it into Jeremy at HMP Full Sutton. They know I do not keep a copy here at my home, they told me they know who has the copy, they say they know I removed the hard drive from my computer soon after I got banned from comunicating with Jeremy under 'Rule 37A', because I sent him through the post, protected material, under pii. They have been to visit my informants, and gave them all the 'Scarborough warning' ...
I am not prepared to be threatened in this manner...
Watch this space...
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No one else has admitted to seeing such a picture and if had, why aren't they backing you up?
They are still backing me up, despite recent visits by secret service, and current interventions...
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Who, besides you, have seen it?
My sister, author, and best friend...
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Sheila was on the bed, with one wound in her neck, before she was photographed with two wounds in her throat with her body moved to the floor...
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Sheila was on the bed, with one wound in her neck, before she was photographed with two wounds in her throat with her body moved to the floor...
My sister can back me up, she knows I had the original photograph developed by Essex police, from a negative strip, showing Sheila on the bed. If anything happens to me, she can confirm the truth. I cannot say whether or not she has confided in anyone else, should anything happen to me, and her...
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All the sources which have made mention of Sheila's body on the bed, before it was moved to the floor, are accurately reported...
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It was confirmed today, that I have been, and continue to be in the radar of the secret services, that my home phone telephone and mobile phones are being monitored, as is any internet activity. The agents who saw me recently have told me they know wherever I am at any given time, and that they can track my whereabouts, via the signal from my registered mobile phone. I have no reason to doubt this...
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Yesterday, as a result of my recent contact with the two secret service agents, I used a phone box to make contact with one of my informants (Z), who confirmed to me that he received a similar visit one day last week from MI5...
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I do not understand why MI5 have took an interest in me, and my informants, considering that Special Branch officers were part of the original investigation, when the case was being investigated, as 'four murders, and a suicide'...
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Yesterday, as a result of my recent contact with the two secret service agents, I used a phone box to make contact with one of my informants (Z), who confirmed to me that he received a similar visit one day last week from MI5...
Actually, it's very easy to get the wrong end of the stick. I was stopped yesterday by a guy in a car and I could have sworn he said he was with MI5. He looked startled when I backed away telling him I knew nothing about pii but in hindsight he COULD have been asking for directions to the M25. ;D
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Actually, it's very easy to get the wrong end of the stick. I was stopped yesterday by a guy in a car and I could have sworn he said he was with MI5. He looked startled when I backed away telling him I knew nothing about pii but in hindsight he COULD have been asking for directions to the M25. ;D
Easily done April!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
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The city of London Police (Colp) investigation knew the truth, but it was 'not in the public interest', or so they said, for the truth to be made public. In recent days, I have been visited by an influential member of MI5, and the record has been put straight, but sadly I have been told that I must not ever post the images of Sheila on the bed showing her with only a solitary shot in her neck, otherwise I will be arrested and charged for posting material withheld under pii...
I have been visited by two secret service officials and advised not to post the images, one of which I took possession of at Ewen Smiths office, and the other which was copied from ACC Simpsons secret file which he kept in his office safe. The one I took possession of in 2004 has since been returned to the secret services via the prison service, but the secret services say they know that I copied the image before sending it into Jeremy at HMP Full Sutton. They know I do not keep a copy here at my home, they told me they know who has the copy, they say they know I removed the hard drive from my computer soon after I got banned from comunicating with Jeremy under 'Rule 37A', because I sent him through the post, protected material, under pii. They have been to visit my informants, and gave them all the 'Scarborough warning' ...
I am not prepared to be threatened in this manner...
Watch this space...
Surely it goes without saying that you will pass the images to jb's legal team. If you are being threatened as u purport then surely this is a no brainer.
Having said that, why u have not passed such images to the legal team already is quite beyond me.
Do u think jb has a better chance of getting out of jail if u retain such images as u claim to have? Or do u not think it may help if u pass them on to his legal team?!
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Surely it goes without saying that you will pass the images to jb's legal team. If you are being threatened as u purport then surely this is a no brainer.
Having said that, why u have not passed such images to the legal team already is quite beyond me.
Do u think jb has a better chance of getting out of jail if u retain such images as u claim to have? Or do u not think it may help if u pass them on to his legal team?!
I thought Mike said he left a copy of one photograph at the CCRC offices?
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I thought Mike said he left a copy of one photograph at the CCRC offices?
I hope you did, Mike!
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I thought Mike said he left a copy of one photograph at the CCRC offices?
The ccrc are not jb's legal team who are the people who need to see such images, should they exist!
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The ccrc are not jb's legal team who are the people who need to see such images, should they exist!
Mike was saying, two years ago, everything he said last night regarding pictures he supposedly has. The big question is the same now as it was then. IF he has the evidence that could potentially free Jeremy, WHY is he still hanging on to it.
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I have seen two separate photographs that police took of Sheila on the bed, before her body was moved to the floor. I have been told that at least six other images taken of Sheila on the bed existed as part of 'THE SENIOR INVESTIGATING OFFICERS ALBUM', which vontained a total of 581 images...
The 8 negatives relating to each of the photographs which clearly show that Sheila is on the bed have been cut into individual negatives from the strip, and given to individual officers as a guarantee that they will not be prosecuted, or lose pension rights, should the absolute truth ever need to be revealed...
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I have seen two separate photographs that police took of Sheila on the bed, before her body was moved to the floor. I have been told that at least six other images taken of Sheila on the bed existed as part of 'THE SENIOR INVESTIGATING OFFICERS ALBUM', which contained a total of 581 images...
The 8 negatives relating to each of the photographs which clearly show that Sheila is on the bed have been cut into individual negatives from the strip, and given to individual officers as a guarantee that they will not be prosecuted, or lose pension rights, should the absolute truth ever need to be revealed...
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At least one of the 8 photographs that were taken of Sheila on the bed, shows the bedside clock with the time at 9.07...
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I'm surprised they weren't destroyed.
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At least one of the 8 photographs that were taken of Sheila on the bed, shows the bedside clock with the time at 9.07...
She only has one shot to her neck at this time. PC 'David' Bird had not arrived at the scene by this stage in the proceedings, so he didn't take any of the 8 photographs of Sheila on the bed. According to PC Bird himself, he didn't start taking photographs until after the scene was handed over to SOCO at 10 O'clock...
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Informant has advised me of the following accuratw infirmation, which he has asked me to forward on to Jeremys legal team:-
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I don´t understand why those photos haven´t played a role in Jeremy´s case - where are they right now?
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I don´t understand why those photos haven´t played a role in Jeremy´s case - where are they right now?
Six of the 8 photographs that we are talking about were still contained in 'THE SENIOR INVESTIGATING OFFICERS ALBUM' two years ago, but the strip of negatives has been cut up and retained by some of the police officers just in case the cover up goes tits up. Junior officers were ordered to make false statements about where and how Sheila's body was found upon entering the scene, despite photographs existing to prove otherwise, and the presence of the rifle at the bedroom window, which could not possibly have been found atop Sheila's body when armed officers first went in...
Rifle can't have been visibly resting against the bedroom window from 7.15am, onwards, and be on Sheila's body at one and the same time...
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Six of the 8 photographs that we are talking about were still contained in 'THE SENIOR INVESTIGATING OFFICERS ALBUM' two years ago, but the strip of negatives has been cut up and retained by some of the police officers just in case the cover up goes tits up. Junior officers were ordered to make false statements about where and how Sheila's body was found upon entering the scene, despite photographs existing to prove otherwise, and the presence of the rifle at the bedroom window, which could not possibly have been found atop Sheila's body when armed officers first went in...
Rifle can't have been visibly resting against the bedroom window from 7.15am, onwards, and be on Sheila's body at one and the same time...
You said you had at least one photograph.
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You said you had at least one photograph.
3 simple questions for u to answer mike:
Q1 - Do u have the photos you have claimed to have or have access to them?
Q2 - Why have u not yet given them to jb's legal team? It seems v strange that u have shown such picture to your sister, yet not given it to jb's legal team!
Q3 - Do u have any intention of giving it to jb's legal team imminently?
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good questions . It would be unbearable to think you had information that could free a man and not use it.
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good questions . It would be unbearable to think you had information that could free a man and not use it.
Jan, how VERY uncanny. You've just said exactly what I said when Mike first told us, 2+ years ago, about the picture he had of Sheila laying on the bed. My lack of understanding is legendary of anything to do with computers, but I fee sure I recall something about one being sent to Jeremy and confiscated before he saw it and another being on a hard drive which had become mislaid in the mountain of information he has....................unless I'm talking about something entirely different. But I feel certain someone will remember it better than I.
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Jan, how VERY uncanny. You've just said exactly what I said when Mike first told us, 2+ years ago, about the picture he had of Sheila laying on the bed. My lack of understanding is legendary of anything to do with computers, but I fee sure I recall something about one being sent to Jeremy and confiscated before he saw it and another being on a hard drive which had become mislaid in the mountain of information he has....................unless I'm talking about something entirely different. But I feel certain someone will remember it better than I.
That's also what I remember except that the HD wasn't lost.
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That's also what I remember except that the HD wasn't lost.
Phew!! Cheers Caroline :)
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Seeing is believing I'm afraid!
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Seeing is believing I'm afraid!
It's way too important to take on trust.
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I can now reveal who took the series of 8 photographs of Sheila on the bed around 9.07am. It was not PC "David' Bird, because he didn't arrive at the scene, with DI 'Ron' Cook, until 9.20am, so forget Bird, and forget Cook. These 8 key photographs were taken by a DC Henderson, in the company of DS 'Neil' Davidson, who both arrived at the scene around the same time as the police surgeon, Dr Craig, and PI 'Bob' Miller...
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Confirmation that DC Henderson took those 8 photographs of Sheila on the bed at around 9.07am, are contained in the schedule drafted up by PC 'David' Bird, in respect of the 581 photographs which formed part of 'THE SENIOR INVESTIGATING OFFICERS ALBUM' deliberately withheld by ACC 'Peter' Simpson, who kept the full set of 581 photographs under lock and key in his office safe...
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Do you have the photos, Mike?
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Do you have the photos, Mike?
I believe that I do have a copy of the one which I posted to Jeremy at HMP Full Sutton, inside an envelope containing the details of how I came into possession of it at Ewen Smiths office earlier in the day. I said in that letter to Jeremy that I did not intend to permanently deprive anyone of it, which was why I told Jeremy on the phone the previous evening that I had got my hands on a photograph of Sheila on the bed, and he asked me to send it in to him, albeit he did not encourage me to send it in under the privilege rule (37A), which is how the prison authorities ended up confiscating my letter of explanation and the original photograph of Sheila on the bed. Jeremy played hell up because the prison authorities had confiscated my letter to him and the photograph. He had an appointment to see the prison governor about the matter, but the governor told Jeremy he could not see the contents of the letter, or an enclosure that came with it, because its contents fell under pii. The letter I wrote and the photograph I put in with it, were placed in Jeremys prison file. So, before anyone starts judging me, don't forget that Jeremy knows the photograph exists, he knows the original photograph is currently enclosed amongst his prison file. As far as the original photograph is concerned, I do not have that, but I did make a copy and saved it to my computers hard drive. The hard drive in question identifiable by its serial no. Is currently in safe storage. So, yes, I do have a copy of the photograph of Sheila on the bed, and I did see a second photograph of Sheila on the bed, at a time when she only had a solitary bullet wound in her neck. The single wound which is the only wound visible upon her neck in this photograph is consistent with the police surgeon, Dr Craig, and PI 'Bob' Miller, both stating that when the saw Sheila in the bedroom at 8.44am, that her body was in the far side of the bed, with what appeared to be a solitary shot to the neck. Since this series of 8 photographs were taken around 9.07am, which was after Craigs and Millers view of Sheila's body, no-one should be in any doubt about what the true interpretation of the Craig / Miller evidence denotes. Her body was never on the bedroom floor at 8.44am, then on the bed at 9.07am, and back on the floor by 10am...
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I believe that I do have a copy of the one which I posted to Jeremy at HMP Full Sutton, inside an envelope containing the details of how I came into possession of it at Ewen Smiths office earlier in the day. I said in that letter to Jeremy that I did not intend to permanently deprive anyone of it, which was why I told Jeremy on the phone the previous evening that I had got my hands on a photograph of Sheila on the bed, and he asked me to send it in to him, albeit he did not encourage me to send it in under the privilege rule (37A), which is how the prison authorities ended up confiscating my letter of explanation and the original photograph of Sheila on the bed. Jeremy played hell up because the prison authorities had confiscated my letter to him and the photograph. He had an appointment to see the prison governor about the matter, but the governor told Jeremy he could not see the contents of the letter, or an enclisure that came with it, because its contents fell under pii. The letter I wrote and the photograph I put in with it, were placed in Jeremys prison file. So, before anyone starts judging me, don't forget that Jeremy knows the photograph exists, he knows the original photograph is currently enclosed amongst his prison file. As far as the original photograph is concerned, I do not have that, but I did make a copy and saved it to my computers hard drive. The hard drive in question identifiable by its serial no. Is currently in safe storage. So, yes, I do have a copy of the photograph of Sheila on the bed, and I did see a second photograph of Sheila on the bed, at a time when she only had a solutary bullet wound in her neck. The single wound which is the only wound vusible upon her neck in this photograph is consistent with the pokuce surgeon, Dr Craig, and PI 'Bob' Miller, both stating that when the saw Sheila in the bedroom at 8.44am, that ger body was in tge far side of the bed, with what appeared to be a solitary shot to the neck. Since this series of 8 photographs were taken around 9.07am, which was after Craigs and Millers view of Sheila's body, no-one should be in any doubt about what the true unterpretation of the Craig / Miller evidence denotes. Her body was never on the bedroom floor at 8.44am, then on the bed at 9.07am, and back on the floor by 10am...
Won´t help Jeremy that way, will it?
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Won´t help Jeremy that way, will it?
The original photograph of Sheila on the bed, not the floor, is being kept on Jeremys prison file, so the longer Jeremy does nothing to get control of the situation, it is not doing himself any favours, either...
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I believe that I do have a copy of the one which I posted to Jeremy at HMP Full Sutton, inside an envelope containing the details of how I came into possession of it at Ewen Smiths office earlier in the day. I said in that letter to Jeremy that I did not intend to permanently deprive anyone of it, which was why I told Jeremy on the phone the previous evening that I had got my hands on a photograph of Sheila on the bed, and he asked me to send it in to him, albeit he did not encourage me to send it in under the privilege rule (37A), which is how the prison authorities ended up confiscating my letter of explanation and the original photograph of Sheila on the bed. Jeremy played hell up because the prison authorities had confiscated my letter to him and the photograph. He had an appointment to see the prison governor about the matter, but the governor told Jeremy he could not see the contents of the letter, or an enclisure that came with it, because its contents fell under pii. The letter I wrote and the photograph I put in with it, were placed in Jeremys prison file. So, before anyone starts judging me, don't forget that Jeremy knows the photograph exists, he knows the original photograph is currently enclosed amongst his prison file. As far as the original photograph is concerned, I do not have that, but I did make a copy and saved it to my computers hard drive. The hard drive in question identifiable by its serial no. Is currently in safe storage. So, yes, I do have a copy of the photograph of Sheila on the bed, and I did see a second photograph of Sheila on the bed, at a time when she only had a solutary bullet wound in her neck. The single wound which is the only wound vusible upon her neck in this photograph is consistent with the pokuce surgeon, Dr Craig, and PI 'Bob' Miller, both stating that when the saw Sheila in the bedroom at 8.44am, that ger body was in tge far side of the bed, with what appeared to be a solitary shot to the neck. Since this series of 8 photographs were taken around 9.07am, which was after Craigs and Millers view of Sheila's body, no-one should be in any doubt about what the true unterpretation of the Craig / Miller evidence denotes. Her body was never on the bedroom floor at 8.44am, then on the bed at 9.07am, and back on the floor by 10am...
Mike, forgive me if I'm wrong, but what it sounds like you're saying is that a picture exists that could free Jeremy. The only problem being that you are the only one who has seen it. Jeremy knows of its existence because you've told him it exists, but he hasn't seen it because you used the wrong method of sending it and it was confiscated before he could. It now resides in his prison file where it will remain until he's released. The irony is that unless that picture sees the light of day, Jeremy won't. Whilst I'm sure he's grateful that you're keeping the other picture in safe storage, I feel he'd be even more grateful if it was placed somewhere in which it would benefit his release.
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Given that you quite explicitly state that you have access to the original photo of Sheila on the bed which you are keeping in 'safe storage', why on earth do u not pass such photo to jb's legal team?????!!!!
I'm sure you realise that jb has a better chance of being released if such a photo is passed to his legal team, rather than as appears to be the case for numerous years, u just retain the photo in ' safe storage'.
If such photo exists and u provide it to jb's legal team, your claimed proof of police staging the scene Q.E.D.
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The original photograph of Sheila on the bed, not the floor, is being kept on Jeremys prison file, so the longer Jeremy does nothing to get control of the situation, it is not doing himself any favours, either...
I think that is a little unfair because the prison service have total power over him . Which has been shown before the way he was moved around . So I can not see anyway he could himself get the photo .
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Jeremy has tried to obtain the photograph of his sister that I posted to him, along with an explanation of how I had acquired it.I think he gave up hope of ever obtaining access to it about 18 months or so, after being told that it had been confiscated because it was pii material which he was not entitled to see. Details of his application to see the contents of the letter and photograph are recorded in his prison file, as is an additional letter of explanation that I wrote to the prison governor, explaining that his entitlement to seeing that letters contents and the photograph of Sheila on the bed that I sent in, had been spoken about with Jeremy on the phone the evening of the day I obtained it. He knew about the photograph because I told him about it, and he was over the moon and excited about its existence because he said that the police had told Ann Eaton at his cotrage that Sheila's body was on the bed in the main bedroom. I had to write to the governor because at this time, Jeremy was in the process of changing solicitors, from Ewen Smith to GDS, and because I had sent the pii material and a letter covering it into Jeremy by way of the privilege rule 37A, he was banned from receiving anymore communications by this process from GDS. Jeremy was blowing his top, blaming me for 'fucking up his right to communicate with his new lawyer', so what I did is I wrote a letter of explanation to the governor in which I said that it wasn't his fault that I had sent the photograph by way of the privilege rule (37A), and I pointed out that this was a method of communicating with Jeremy which had been accepted by the Home Office on previoys occasions when I was acting as Jeremys McKensie man, and was an approved visitor of his. I also added that I had previously been allowed special visits to see Jeremy during mornings and afternoons in one of the private booths enjoted by visiting solicitors. Finally, I added that neither the prison service, nor the Home Office, had contacted me to say that these privileges previously enjoyed between Jeremy and myself had been cancelled ir stopped, and therefore I was in my right to correspibd wuth Jeremy under the privilege rule, abd even if I was wrong, the governor should lift the ban imposed upon Jeremy denying the privilege of communicating with his current lawyer under the same privilege rule (37A). Soon after, the ban was lifted...
Since then Jeremy has said that he is not pursuing the photograph of his suster on the bed because he has got sonething just as good ir better to win an appeal...
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There is not only me, who has seen the photograph of Sheila on the bed...
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A DC Henderson took a series of 8 photographs of Sheila on the bed at around 9.07am. He was accompanied inside the farmhoyse by DS Davidson, in the presence of senior officers, DCI's Harris, Gibbons, and Clarke. Soon afterwards, DS Jones and DC Clarke visited the bedroom and saw Sheila's body on the bed, without the rifle, and with only a single hullet wound in her neck. At this time, Sheila was not dead, but probably very close to death. She did not bleed very much from this first wound, as evidenced by the vertical blood trail beneath the wound...
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There is not only me, who has seen the photograph of Sheila on the bed...
But you appear to have placed yourself centre stage by being the only one SAYING you have and the only one responsible for their distribution/safe keeping.
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A DC Henderson took a series of 8 photographs of Sheila on the bed at around 9.07am. He was accompanied inside the farmhoyse by DS Davidson, in the presence of senior officers, DCI's Harris, Gibbons, and Clarke. Soon afterwards, DS Jones and DC Clarke visited the bedroom and saw Sheila's body on the bed, without the rifle, and with only a single hullet wound in her neck. At this time, Sheila was not dead, but probably very close to death. She did not bleed very much from this first wound, as evidenced by the vertical blood trail beneath the wound...
Unless it can be proved categorically WHO was responsible for taking the pictures, and I really can't see, at this stage of the game, that anyone will come forward to admit it, I don't think WHO is of interest. Of interest is that you appear to have had them for several years. You apparently sent one to Jeremy -although HE never got to see it- and it now languishes in his prison file which you say he isn't doing enough to get control of -it's my understanding that prisoners' files are only released to them on the occasion of their release. What irony that what may prove to be the ONLY means of his release won't be given him until he's released.....................unless, that it, YOU decide to release from safe keeping, to the relevant body, the copy you say you still have.
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Whenever there is talk about this photo, it gives me an uneasy feeling. Something ain´t right here.
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Whenever there is talk about this photo, it gives me an uneasy feeling. Something ain´t right here.
You and me both, I think unless there is some 'proof' of it existence; that will always be the case. I don't think it matters who 'took' it those are just 'fill in details' after it has been seen by JB's solicitor. He has a new team, I'm sure they will be interested in such evidence?
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It is my intention to fully expose what has taken place here. There is not going to be a quick fix to the solution, the police involved in this prosecution ain't going to get away with anything in this matter on a technicality. Which is why I am biding my time until all avenues have been explored, discussed, and taken into account. The photograph I may have got on one of my hard drives will not be enough to free Jeremy...
More is needed...
Only then will I consider making a move...
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It is my intention to fully expose what has taken place here. There is not going to be a quick fix to the solution, the police involved in this prosecution ain't going to get away with anything in this matter on a technicality. Which is why I am biding my time until all avenues have been explored, discussed, and taken into account. The photograph I may have got on one of my hard drives will not be enough to free Jeremy...
More is needed...
Only then will I consider making a move...
Have u got the photograph or you MAY only have it?
Who do u think knows best whether what you have is enough to free jb? Yourself? or Jb's legal team?
How do u imagine jb feels that you are quite happy to bide your time. It's not as though we're talking days or weeks or even months, as u claim to have had access to this photo for years whilst jb just remains in jail while u happily bide your time!
"only then will I consider making a move" - so u may wait another few years biding ur time, wait for more info to come along but then still think, f*ck it I'll still do nothing!
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Already, there has been two opportunitues for the disclosure of a photograph showing Sheila on the bed, and nothing constructive has become of disclosing them. I can do without people telling me what to do, as though I haven't Jeremys best interests at heart. Some of you don't seem to be able to grasp that simply by disclosing the said photograph which may be in my possession, will not be enough on its own to guarantee success in any appeal. This is because the material is pii, and it is open to any appellate court to refuse an appeal by a reliance upon 'THE IMPOSITION OF THE PRIVISO', by claiming that any grounds of appeal reliant upon use or by reference to this kind of pii material, amounts to an abuse of process, thus negating the purpose and meaning of what such a photograph of Sheila in the bed represents...
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Already, there has been two opportunitues for the disclosure of a photograph showing Sheila on the bed, and nothing constructive has become of disclosing them. I can do without people telling me what to do, as though I haven't Jeremys best interests at heart. Some of you don't seem to be able to grasp that simply by disclosing the said photograph which may be in my possession, will not be enough on its own to guarantee success in any appeal. This is because the material is pii, and it id open to any appellate coury to refuse an appeal by a reliance upon 'THE IMPOSITION OF THE PRIVISO', by claiming that any grounds of appeal reliant upon use or by reference to this kind of pii material, amounts to an abuse of process, thus negating the purpise and meaning of what such a phitograph of Sheila in the bed represents...
When?
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When?
When, what?
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Already, there has been two opportunitues for the disclosure of a photograph showing Sheila on the bed, and nothing constructive has become of disclosing them. I can do without people telling me what to do, as though I haven't Jeremys best interests at heart. Some of you don't seem to be able to grasp that simply by disclosing the said photograph which may be in my possession, will not be enough on its own to guarantee success in any appeal. This is because the material is pii, and it is open to any appellate court to refuse an appeal by a reliance upon 'THE IMPOSITION OF THE PRIVISO', by claiming that any grounds of appeal reliant upon use or by reference to this kind of pii material, amounts to an abuse of process, thus negating the purpose and meaning of what such a photograph of Sheila in the bed represents...
Mike, I haven't a clue what you mean by ANY of the above but neither am I totally stupid. Hows about finding yourself a publicist -Max Clifford no longer available- who's prepared to plaster (a copy of) said picture across the red tops and broad sheets. The country LOVES moj's and the papers would sell their souls to have a legitimate pop at the police.
It seems that you're applying conditions to as and when you'll consider making a move. I take this to mean that if those conditions aren't met, no move will be made. In the mean time, the man whose innocence you maintain languishes in prison with a game of political chess going on around him. If he dies there, it's game over.
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The truth behind Sheila's body being present on the bed can easily be proven to be true, but in order to achieve that so those responsible for moving her body from the bed to the floor, it is necessary to investigate, discuss and obtain additional supporting material, so that when the time comes for those responsible to face the music, it will become almost if not impossible for them to escape punishment on a technicality. This is what I am seeking to do...
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Disclosing such a photograph does not guarantee that Jeremys convictuons would automatically be quashed...
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Disclosing such a photograph does not guarantee that Jeremys convictuons would automatically be quashed...
But if you publish the photo at least you will be able to prove to people that you have seen the photo and stop them calling you a liar. Also as all police statements agreed together as how Sheila was found and no one mentioned that she was at any time on the bed, you could prove them wrong. So if you have such a photo in your possession and have done for many years, then surely the logical thing woulf be to give it to Jeremy's defense team? Personally I can see no logical reason for you hanging on to it?
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Disclosing such a photograph does not guarantee that Jeremys convictuons would automatically be quashed...
Perhaps not, but it would be proof that it exists, and it could set in motion a chain of events which could lead to his release.
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Disclosing such a photograph does not guarantee that Jeremys convictuons would automatically be quashed...
I have been involved in two disclosures of such photographs in two different sets of circumstances and nothing constructive has become of doing that / this twice. The prison authorities have one of the photographs, yet they choose to do nothing about it. Similarly, the CCRC have a copy of the second image, yet they too do nothing at all about it. So, what makes you think that disclosing one of these photographs again to anybody is going to have the impact you expect, when previous disclosures have not had that desired effect?
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I have been involved in two disclosures of such photographs in two different sets of circumstances and nothing constructive has become of doing that / this twice. The prison authorities have one of the photographs, yet they choose to do nothing about it. Similarly, the CCRC have a copy of the second image, yet they too do nothing at all about it. Do what makes you thi k that disclosing one of these pbotograohs afaun to anybody is going to have the impact you expect, when pre ioys dusclosures havenot had that desired effect?
Primarily because, at the moment, there seem to
be a VERY limited number who know of the existence of such pictures, and those who have seen then have squirreled them from public view. I'm sure you don't need me to tell you what effect it would have if the general public were to see them plastered all over the papers with the caption "INNOCENT MAN SPENDS 30 YEARS BEHIND BARS FOR MURDERS HE DIDN'T COMMIT".
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Mike, as far as I remember, you wrote here that you were on the way with the photo to deliver it at the last CCRC submission. You said you were on the steps. What happened, Mike?
BTW. there is a whole, very long thread about how you lost the photo. Did you lose it and find it again - or?
Here is what you said more than two and a half years ago:
Quote from: mike tesko on May 14, 2012, 08:38:PM
Yes, that's alright, I know everyone wants to see the picture of Sheila on the bed, and I will soon be taking steps to bring it into the hands of those who need it most. I am due to meet my informant in the morning in Glasgow to discuss the possibility of the other photographs of Sheila on the bed with only one wound to her neck' also being made available to those in most need of it. One thing I am not and that is that I do not tell lies, I might on occasions keep quiet and say nothing, but there is a difference between doing that and telling lies (in my opinion). Just you lot wait until you see the evidence I have been talking about for all these months, it's going to blow your minds away...
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2593.msg87914.html#msg87914
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Mike, as far as I remember, you wrote here that you were on the way with the photo to deliver it at the last CCRC submission. You said you were on the steps. What happened, Mike?
BTW. there is a whole, very long thread about how you lost the photo. Did you lose it and find it again - or?
Here is what you said more than two and a half years ago:
Quote from: mike tesko on May 14, 2012, 08:38:PM
Yes, that's alright, I know everyone wants to see the picture of Sheila on the bed, and I will soon be taking steps to bring it into the hands of those who need it most. I am due to meet my informant in the morning in Glasgow to discuss the possibility of the other photographs of Sheila on the bed with only one wound to her neck' also being made available to those in most need of it. One thing I am not and that is that I do not tell lies, I might on occasions keep quiet and say nothing, but there is a difference between doing that and telling lies (in my opinion). Just you lot wait until you see the evidence I have been talking about for all these months, it's going to blow your minds away...
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2593.msg87914.html#msg87914
Should I stop holding my breath, Alias?
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Should I stop holding my breath, Alias?
I don´t know, but I have stopped a long time ago.
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Primarily because, at the moment, there seem to
be a VERY limited number who know of the existence of such pictures, and those who have seen then have squirreled them from public view. I'm sure you don't need me to tell you what effect it would have if the general public were to see them plastered all over the papers with the caption "INNOCENT MAN SPENDS 30 YEARS BEHIND BARS FOR MURDERS HE DIDN'T COMMIT".
Exactly, I am of that view, but now is not the time for this to happen, we need back up, we need to investigate, we need to discuss, we need to be prepared for what lies ahead. Be patient, Jeremys liberty relies on how we proceed in this matter, The prison service and the home office are not prepared to speak out about the existence of that photograph of Sheila's body on the bed, similarly, the CCRC has its hands tied - nobody can speak out, because its covered by pii. Anyone who thinks the judges at the appellate court will accept such a photograph on its own, as sufficient evidence to guarantee the convictions are quashed, think again, because the authoroties are as thick as thieves when it comes to trying to keep the image of law and order in a good light. Nothing in this case is simple, too much is at stake...
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Exactly, I am of that view, but now is not the time for this to happen, we need back up, we need to investigate, we need to discuss, we need to be prepared for what lies ahead. Be patient, Jeremys liberty relies on how we proceed in this matter, The prison service and the home office are not prepared to speak out about the existence of that photograph of Sheila's body on the bed, similarly, the CCRC has its hands tied - nobody can speak out, because its covered by pii. Anyone who thinks the judges at the appellate court will accept such a photograph on its own, as sufficient evidence to guarantee the convictions are quashed, think again, because the authoroties are as thick as thieves when it comes to trying to keep the image of law and order in a good light. Nothing in this case is simple, too much is at stake...
Its easy - the guardian have always backed Jeremy if they were sent a copy then they could contact Jeremy and ask him how to proceed with it? Personally I don't think Jeremy being released on a technicality would be good for him. However if the Jury made their decision based on false crime scene photos then surely the case is blown wide open.
And there would have to be very good reason for the police to move the body to the floor to take the crime scene photos and funnily enough I can not see one.
The prison service are part of the establishment so its obvious they wont help.
So if the picture exists then it should go to his defence team/ the guardian / or the one person who seems to be willing to stand up to the police , Theresa May.
And surely NOW is the right time .What better time is there?
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We need to gather as much supporting information as we can get, to support the existence of these 8 photographs that were taken by a DC Henderson, at around 9.07am, that morning in the main bedroom...
We can start by investigating the role played by PC 'David' Bird, in producing misleading photographic schedules, for (a) THE MASTER COPY ALBUM (consisting if 223 photographs), and (b) THE COURT ALBUM (consisting of 50 photographs, as compared against the 223 photographs of the master copy album). A further 358 photographs excluded from PC Birds presentation...
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What I would like to see, is the photograohic schedule for each of the
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Exactly, I am of that view, but now is not the time for this to happen, we need back up, we need to investigate, we need to discuss, we need to be prepared for what lies ahead. Be patient, Jeremys liberty relies on how we proceed in this matter, The prison service and the home office are not prepared to speak out about the existence of that photograph of Sheila's body on the bed, similarly, the CCRC has its hands tied - nobody can speak out, because its covered by pii. Anyone who thinks the judges at the appellate court will accept such a photograph on its own, as sufficient evidence to guarantee the convictions are quashed, think again, because the authoroties are as thick as thieves when it comes to trying to keep the image of law and order in a good light. Nothing in this case is simple, too much is at stake...
Mike, from where will this back up come if the few who have the pictures are keeping them hidden. The general public, who Jeremy NEEDS to be on his side, won't be prepared to take on trust that these pictures exist. Give people proof that the case needs to be looked at again and they'll back you all the way.
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Mike, from where will this back up come if the few who have the pictures are keeping them hidden. The general public, who Jeremy NEEDS to be on his side, won't be prepared to take on trust that these pictures exist. Give people proof that the case needs to be looked at again and they'll back you all the way.
I have the proof, or to be more precise, I have got access to the truth. I need to ensure that certain safeguards are in place before I release any images that I might have got access to. Informant has said he will have printed off from a negative in his possession, one of the 8 photographs taken at the scene at around 9.07am, which shows Sheila (still barely alive) on the bed with a single almost bloodless bullet wound present on her throat. No blood running from the corners of her mouth or nostrils, no blood running diagonally across her neck, no blood in her left eye socket - lots of proof that this photograph of Sheila on the bed with a single wound, must have been taken prior to photographs taken by PC 'David' Bird, from 10 O'clock onwards by which time Sheila's body has been moved onto the bedroom floor. Now how can it possibly be true that the original six man raid team found Shsila's body in the bedroom floor with the rifle at the window on her body, and she having two bullet holes in her neck, and all the additional blood all over the place, where previously there had been none?
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I have the proof, or to be more precise, I have got access to the truth. I need to ensure that certain safeguards are in place before I release any images that I might have got access to. Informant has said he will have printed off from a negative in his possession, one of the 8 photographs taken at the scene at around 9.07am, whi h shows Sheila (still barely alive) on the bed with a single almost bloodless bullet wound present on her throat. No blood running from the corners of her mouth or nostrils, no blood running diagonally across her neck, no blood in her left eye socket - lots of proof that this photograph of Sheila on the bed with a single woynd, must have been taken prior to photographs taken by PC 'David' Bird, from 10 O'clock onwards by which time Sheila's body has been moved onto the bedroom floor. Now how can it possibly be true that the original six man raid team fou d Shsila's body in the bedroom floor with the rifle at the eindow on her body, and she having two bullet holes in her neck, and all the additional blood all over the place, where previously there had been none?
Mike, you can keep saying this year after year. And year after year more and more people simply will not believe you without the proof you claim to have in your possession (or MAY have??????????).
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I have the proof, or to be more precise, I have got access to the truth. I need to ensure that certain safeguards are in place before I release any images that I might have got access to. Informant has said he will have printed off from a negative in his possession, one of the 8 photographs taken at the scene at around 9.07am, which shows Sheila (still barely alive) on the bed with a single almost bloodless bullet wound present on her throat. No blood running from the corners of her mouth or nostrils, no blood running diagonally across her neck, no blood in her left eye socket - lots of proof that this photograph of Sheila on the bed with a single wound, must have been taken prior to photographs taken by PC 'David' Bird, from 10 O'clock onwards by which time Sheila's body has been moved onto the bedroom floor. Now how can it possibly be true that the original six man raid team found Shsila's body in the bedroom floor with the rifle at the window on her body, and she having two bullet holes in her neck, and all the additional blood all over the place, where previously there had been none?
Mike, you can go on repeating it until the cows come home but until you can produce proof of it I think it's asking too much of people to expect them to take it on trust. Would YOU take it on trust from anyone you didn't know.
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I am trying to get evrryone to look at the bigger picture, hoping that some of you will realise the significance of how the existence of the 8 photographs of Sheila on the bed at around 9.07am, impacts on all the other evidence in the case. I have started off by referring to the three main photographic albums which were produced in this investigation, as follows:-
(1) - SENIOR INVESTIGATUNG OFFICERS ALBUM (581 pboto's)
(2) - MASTER COPY ALBUM (223 photo's)
(3) - COURT ALBUM (50 photo's)
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Mike, you can go on repeating it until the cows come home but until you can produce proof of it I think it's asking too much of people to expect them to take it on trust. Would YOU take it on trust from anyone you didn't know.
Trust me for a little while longer...
Try listening to what I am saying, without tryung to knock me out of my stride...
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I am trying to get evrryone to look at the bigger picture, hoping that some of you will realise the significance of how the existence of the 8 photographs of Sheila on the bed at around 9.07am, impacts on all the other evidence in the case. I have started off by referring to the three main photographic albums which were produced in this investigation, as follows:-
(1) - SENIOR INVESTIGATUNG OFFICERD ALBUM (581 pboto's)
(2) - MASTER COPY ALBUM (223 photo's)
(3) - COURT ALBUM (50 photo's)
We have got these three very distinctive photographic albums, but PC 'David' Bird, has only produced a schedule for the latter two albums (2) and (3). But rather more sinisterly, he has numbered the 223 photographs of (2) sequentually, from 1 consecutively through to 223, without any reference at all to the sequential order of (1) which contained the 581 photographs kept under lock and key in AC Peter Simpsons office safe...
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I have received information that the 223 photographs contained in album (2) were numbered consecutively, 1 to 223, to deliberately fool the defence into thinking that the 223 pictures contained in the misleadingly titled, 'MASTER COPY ALBUM', were all that existed in the investigation. Essex police did not want Jeremy Bamber, or Jo Public knowing about the other "TOP SECRET' album, containing 581 photographs, which was only known about by a select few, as 'THE SENIOR INVESTIGATING OFFICERS ALBUM'...
Now, this album (1), was kept out of sight and locked away inside a safe inside ACC Peter Simpsons office, and no-one other than a select group of police officers involved in covering up the true circumstances of when and how Sheila Caffell died inside the bedroom at the scene. The first time the defence got to know about the existence of this (1) 'SENIOR INVESTIGATING OFFICERS ALBUM'' which contained all 581 photographs, was at the beginning of 2004 when Ewen Smith was about to be appointed a 'CCRC COMISSIONER'. I know this because at the time I was visiting Ewen at his offices in Birmingham, discussingfresh ballistic evidence being obtained via tests carried out at the J36 gun club, Birdwell, Barnsley. I was visiting Jeremy regularly, and Ewen Smith, to discuss the latest developments, when Ewen told me that Essex police had loaned him their own photographic album, which had previously not been spoken about. EWEN CONFIDED IN ME, that he only got access to it because he was going to be appointed to the CCRC as a Commissioner, and strings had been pulled for him to see them. Ewen told me that this albun was ACC Simpsons album, and that he normally kept it in his safe, and used it during training lectures /exercises. I NOW REALISE that I might have not heard what Ewen said at that time, and that what he could have said, was that many of the photograghs in the album were taken during a police exercise at the scene, at the material time with the bodies of victims still insitu...
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Whilst present in Ewens office on that occasion, he used the phone in his office to ask someone to bring the photographic album to his office. We carried on talking and about 5 or 10 minutes later there was a knock on his office door, and in came one of Ewens colleagues, she was carrying 4 separate plastic covered folders inside which were numerous photographs. His assistant placed them on Ewens office table, then asked Ewen if he required all the other folders of pictures, Ewen said, "no", he said, " those will do for now"...
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Ewen left his office making it clear that he would be away for 5 or 10 minutes, the 4 folders were on his desktop. I believed that Ewen deliberately left those albums of photographs on his desk and made himself scarce so that I could look through them...
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Some of the photographs I saw in the first album I picked up showed victims and thier injuries whilst still insitu at the scene. It became clear to me that the bodies of June and Ralph Bamber had been moved about a lot from photograph to photograph. More recently, Jeremy having seen the same images complained that police had been using the bodies of his family as props during a training exercise...
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Some of the photographs I saw in the first album I picked up showed victims and thier injuries whilst still insitu at the scene. It became clear to me that the bodies of June and Ralph Bamber had been moved about a lot from photograph to photograph. More recently, Jeremy having seen the same images complained that police had been using the bodies of his family as props during a training exercise...
The training exercise commenced one hour before the scene was handed over to SOCO at 10 O'clock, some of the earliest photoraphs in album (1) show bodies were moved and staged prior to 10am, when PC 'David' Bird started to take his photographs - thus proving that pokice staged the bodies of victims, not Jeremy, nor any as yet unidentified killer...
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If what I am saying is true, then it should be obvious to everyone that the 223 photographs contained in album (2), cannot have been taken, one after the other, 1 to 223, because other photographs which exist in album (1) are not duplicated in album (2)...
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If what I am saying is true, then it should be obvious to everyone that the 223 photographs contained in album (2), cannot have been taken, one after the other, 1 to 223, because other photographs which exist in album (1) are not duplicated in album (2)...
The 223 photographs of album (2) do not sit consecutively numbered 1 to 223 as the first 223 photographs in the 581 photographs of album (1). This was why PC 'David' Bird produced the misleading photographic schedule for albums (2) and (3). Police set out to fool everybody into thinking that album (2) was the original 'Master copy' photographic album, when all along they had a third album (1) containing a further 358 photographs. The original sequence of 8 photographs were contained in album (1), none of which found thier way into albums (2) or (3)...
Negatice strips had to be cut by the time of the trial to try and eliminate proof that a large number of additional photographs had been taken. The photographic recird was tampered with in this manner with a view of covering up the true circumstances of how the pisitions of victims bodies at the scene ended up by around 10 O'clock when PC 'David' Bird was instructed to start taking additional photographs. He produced the misleading photographic schedules (2) and (3), so as to conceal from publuc gaze the fact that there had been a training exercise involving some of the most senior detectives, and that bodies had been used as props...
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The senior officers who entered the farmhouse between 8.15 and 9.10am did not stand around twiddling thier thumbs until after 10 O'clock when PC 'David' Bird started to take his crime scene photographs, before engaging in using the bodies of victims as props in a training exercise. They had at least an hour and a half to tamper with the bodies and exhibits before the crime scene was handed over to SOCO...
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I just find the whole thing disgusting and above all disrespectful to use your family in this way. It fills me with horror to think what they must have gone through that night and then to be treated in this manner. It's heartbreaking. Imagine if this went on within the general public. There'd be an outcry and I'm sure,a few suings too for their sheer lack of sympathy/empathy just because they were deceased.
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I just find the whole thing disgusting and above all disrespectful to use your family in this way. It fills me with horror to think what they must have gone through that night and then to be treated in this manner. It's heartbreaking. Imagine if this went on within the general public. There'd be an outcry and I'm sure,a few suings too for their sheer lack of sympathy/empathy just because they were deceased.
The very same senior officers who threw Jeremy to the wolves treated the bodies of the victims so awfully and disrepectfully...
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DCI 'Taff' Jones was one of the senior Officers who took a close interest in Sheila's body after she was shot by the rifle from the window. He left the scene before other officers handed the scene over to SOCO at 10 O'clock...
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David Shaw, in his unpublished book entitled, 'AN INNOCENT MAN', describes DCI Jones as having a bee in his bonnet abour how thw presence of tqo bullet wounds in her neck being explained away by reference to 'recoil' of the semi-automatic rifle...
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Hillsborough was a huge tragedy but officers STILL altered statements to cover their own backs !! So what would they get up to with 5 dead people against 96 ??
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Establish arrival and departure times of the following senior and junior officers at the scene:-
(1) - DCI George Harris*
(2) - DCI Terry Gibbons*
(3) - DCI Wright*
(4) - DCI Taff Jones*
(5) - DI Ron Cook
(6) - PI Bob Miller
(7) - PI Ivor Montgomery*
(8) - DS Neil Davidson*
(9) - DC Henderson*
(10) - PC Wright
(11) - DS Stan Jones
(12) - DC Mick Clark
(13) - PC David Bird
(14) - DC Hammersley
(15) - PS Woodcock*
* denotes officers believed to be present in main bedroom around time rifle was taken from window by DS Woodcock, offerred to body of Sheila, discharged round under chin of victim...
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By the time senior officers had completed the main purpose of carrying out thier training exercise which councided with the handing over of the scene to SOCO at around 10 O'clock, disturbance of the bodies of victims no longer needed to be tampered with any further. In Sheila's case, the rifle which had originally been at the window, was by 10 O'clock present upon her chest and abdomen. The muzzle of the rifle pointing in the general direction of two bullet wounds. By this stage all persons present agreed that the presence of the two neck shots could both be put down to 'RECOIL' of the semi-automatic rifle having gone off a second time, in quick succession...
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Despite senior officers setting the scene during an hour or so of training exercises and didturbance of the bodies, in the belief that they could get away with what they had done was only going to be dealt with in a civil matter in the Coroners court at inquest, there were still ballistic issues yet to be resolved which could throw a spanner in the works. Since, police knew that the rifle brought to the body of Sheila had not fired the original shot, so they had to be cateful not toention anything to the family Sheila shooting herself twice, because survivingbers of the wider family were known gun dealors and gun enthusiasts...
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Despite senior officers setting the scene during an hour or so of training exercises and didturbance of the bodies, in the belief that they could get away with what they had done was only going to be dealt with in a civil matter in the Coroners court at inquest, there were still ballistic issues yet to be resolved which could throw a spanner in the works. Since, police knew that the rifle brought to the body of Sheila had not fired the original shot, so they had to be careful not to mention anything to the family Sheila shooting herself twice, because survivingbers of the wider family were known gun dealors and gun enthusiasts...
To get around ballistic problems, senior officers arranged for unofficial test firings of the semi-automatic rifle and control ammunition recovered from the scene, to be used in a substitution process so that police could prove by reference to substituted crime scene ammunution, that only one gun had been used in the shootings, it being the rifle photographed atop Sheila's body by PC David Bird after 10am...
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To get around ballistic problems, senior officers arranged for unofficial test firings of the semi-automatic rifle and control ammunition recovered from the scene, to be used in a substitution process so that police could prove by reference to substituted crime scene ammunution, that only one gun had been used in the shootings, it being the rifle photographed atop Sheila's body by PC David Bird after 10am...
These unreported test firings of the semi-automatic rifle, and control ammunition, were performed between the 12th and 19th of September 1985, by A. Taylor and Malcolm Fletcher (confirmation of this can be found in copies of lab' General Examination Records), bearing information pertinent to this matter, dated and signed entries, for 12th, 13th, 18th and 19th September 1985 -
Despite the fact that Malcom Fletcher made a witness statement, and he produced a ballistics report in which he says that he had no involvement with either the rifle or crime scene ammunition until the 20th September 1985...
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When, what?
When were the two opportunities for disclosure?
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When were the two opportunities for disclosure?
Letter and photograph attachment sent by myself to Jeremy at HMP Full Sutton, which ultimately got confiscated by prison discipline and which now remains in Jeremys prison file, and secondly, the handing over of a similar photograph to the CCRC in Birmingham when I was accompanied by an informant, who originally had possession of such a photograph...
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I know that Jeremy was kept waiting on the phone, by the police, for 11 mins.
How so? Pc West's evidence in court specifically contradicts that.
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How so? Pc West's evidence in court specifically contradicts that.
I've read so much about that long wait,Reader,so much so that when someone finally answered,Jeremy said,quote," Christ,what kept you ",unquote.
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I've not seen that. When asked in court what Jeremy said, Pc West replied that he thought his words were "Christ. You took a long time." When asked how long Jeremy was on hold, Pc West replied "I would say it was about 3 minutes."
When interviewed on 8th September 1985, Jeremy put it this way: "About five minutes it seemed like ages. Times are approximate."
I can't find any justification for saying "I know... 11 minutes."
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Letter and photograph attachment sent by myself to Jeremy at HMP Full Sutton, which ultimately got confiscated by prison discipline and which now remains in Jeremys prison file, and secondly, the handing over of a similar photograph to the CCRC in Birmingham when I was accompanied by an informant, who originally had possession of such a photograph...
Why would it stay on Jeremys file ? I bet it got handed straight to the home office or something similar.
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Senior officers were in control of the scene at the scene before SOCO got a look in. Later that evening, senior officers were in control of the debrief held at Witham, where they insisted that everyone present should write thier notes up as though the operation had been one involving 4 murders and a suicide. Photographic evidence taken at the scene before and after SOCO took control of the scene was tampered with, and separated into three basic albums. The defence were only either given or offerred access to only two of these photo' albums, a third album (THE SENIOR INVESTIGATING OFFICERS ALBUM) was kept under lock and key inside ACC Peter Simpsons office safe, it consisted of 581 photographs, 358 more than existed in the so called, "THE MASTER COPY ALBUM) which only had 223 photographs contained in it, and 531 more photographs than existed in "THE COURT ALBUM" which only had 50...
Senior officers were in control of the proposed cover up surrounding the true circumstances of how Sheila was actually shot twice, rank and file officers were told or ordered what to do, what to say, and how to present thier own supposed accounts of the operaration in the investigation...
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Senior officers were in control of the scene at the scene before SOCO got a look in. Later that evening, senior officers were in control of the debrief held at Witham, where they insisted that everyone present should write thier notes up as though the operation had been one involving 4 murders and a suicide. Photographic evidence taken at the scene before and after SOCO took control of the scene was tampered with, and separated into three basic albums. The defence were only either given or offerred access to only two of these photo' albums, a third album (THE SENIOR INVESTIGATING OFFICERS ALBUM) was kept under lock and key inside ACC Peter Simpsons office safe, it consisted of 581 photographs, 358 more than existed in the so called, "THE MASTER COPY ALBUM) which only had 223 photographs contained in it, and 531 more photographs than existed in "THE COURT ALBUM" which only had 50...
Senior officers were in control of the proposed cover up surrounding the true circumstances of how Sheila was actually shot twice, rank and file officers were told or ordered what to do, what to say, and how to present thier own supposed accounts of the operaration in the investigation...
PS Adams, summed up the mood of rank and file officers during his COLP police interviews, by declaring that Sheila's body was in a different position in crime scene photographs shown to them during the de-brief held at Witham on 7th August 1985, by saying that when he saw Sheila's body at around 9am, it was in a different pisition in the bedroom...
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How coincidental then, that after 9 O'clock senior officers had taken control of crime scene, and carried out informatives, during which time for an hour or so, they had unrestricted access to the bodies of the victims and items of interest, prior to the farmhouse being handed over to SOCO at around 10 O'clock? PS Adams saw Sheila's body on the floor at around 9am, which fits snugly with the fact that at around 9.07am, DC Henderson took photographs of Sheila's body on the bed (timing when those 8 photographs of her on the bed taken from the image of a clock on one of the bedside cabinets which may or may not be accurate time, or it may not have matched timings mentioned by others at the scene who relied upon thier own time keeping devices)...
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Senior officers were involved in the cover up, up to thier eyeballs in it, moving bodies, ordering rank and file officers to write thier notes up as though what they had been dealing with was a case of fourmurders and a suicide...
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The city of London Police (Colp) investigation knew the truth, but it was 'not in the public interest', or so they said, for the truth to be made public. In recent days, I have been visited by an influential member of MI5, and the record has been put straight, but sadly I have been told that I must not ever post the images of Sheila on the bed showing her with only a solitary shot in her neck, otherwise I will be arrested and charged for posting material withheld under pii...
I have been visited by two secret service officials and advised not to post the images, one of which I took possession of at Ewen Smiths office, and the other which was copied from ACC Simpsons secret file which he kept in his office safe. The one I took possession of in 2004 has since been returned to the secret services via the prison service, but the secret services say they know that I copied the image before sending it into Jeremy at HMP Full Sutton. They know I do not keep a copy here at my home, they told me they know who has the copy, they say they know I removed the hard drive from my computer soon after I got banned from comunicating with Jeremy under 'Rule 37A', because I sent him through the post, protected material, under pii. They have been to visit my informants, and gave them all the 'Scarborough warning' ...
I am not prepared to be threatened in this manner...
Watch this space...
The images you claim which exist of Sheila on the bed?
Prove it once and for all. Send me copies on the basis I agree not to circulate them or post them and I will confirm their existence.
Over to you, your credibility is now on the line. (http://images.zaazu.com/img/shades-animated-animation-shades-smiley-emoticon-000387-medium.gif)
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Mike, why do you still refer to DCI George Harris? He was a Chief Superintendent at the time, as I've pointed out more than once, not a DCI. Each time I've drawn this to your attention, you've thanked me for the correction, but then later made the same mistake again.
Regarding the photograph (of Sheila on the bed) that you sent to Jeremy, how did you make a copy of it?
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Mike, why do you still refer to DCI George Harris? He was a Chief Superintendent at the time, as I've pointed out more than once, not a DCI. Each time I've drawn this to your attention,
Hi Reader,
I believe I keep referring to him as a DCI in error, nothing more sinister than that, although Im sure when one of my informants speaks to me about the case that he has referred to him by that rank, rather than the rank he had at the time of the investigation (DCS). Perhaps 'George' Harris had the rank of DCI when David first came to know him? Was Harris a DCI before he became a DCS? I do not profess to know why 'Z' keeps refferring to him as a DCI, but I can try to find out when he next contacts me...
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I did not send a copy of the photograph of Sheila on the bed to Jeremy, I posted the original photograph in to him, along with a letter giving details of how I came to be in possession of it. I scanned the original photograph along with my letter and saved both to my computer - in those days I had a flat bed scanner that I believe was manufactured by Hewlard Packard or Packard Bell. Details of the scanner used by me will be encrypted in the hard drive showing the link between the scanner and the computer against the images stored there...
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The images you claim which exist of Sheila on the bed?
Prove it once and for all. Send me copies on the basis I agree not to circulate them or post them and I will confirm their existence.
Over to you, your credibility is now on the line. (http://images.zaazu.com/img/shades-animated-animation-shades-smiley-emoticon-000387-medium.gif)
Why would I trust you when you have made a career of insulting and ridiculing me?
At the end of the d
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Letters written by Jeremy and myself to eachother covering the period either side of the occasion that I sent Jeremy the photograph in, is an historical account of the presures felt by both of us after discovering that such a photograph existed. I know that Jeremy keeps all letters written to him, and I keep copies of letters I send to him. ..
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The photpgraph which shoes Sheila laid on the bed that I sent to Jete.y becr tjat vayelist fpr me askung jere.y whether or not her panties had been seized as an exhibit, and in turn whether or not those were the source from which the blood inside the silencer originated?
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Why would I trust you when you have made a career of insulting and ridiculing me?
At the end of the d
There are people on this forum that you could trust though .
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Senior officers took control of the scene at the scene, they interferred with the bodies of the victims, and items of interest, and are behind the cover up...
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Why would I trust you when you have made a career of insulting and ridiculing me?
At the end of the d
Mike beware of those who post big smileys. It is usually the trait of a psychopath.
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Perhaps 'George' Harris had the rank of DCI when David first came to know him? Was Harris a DCI before he became a DCS?
George Harris had previously been a DCI, but hadn't been a DCS. He was a Chief Superintendent at the time of the Bamber killings.
I posted the original photograph in to him, along with a letter giving details of how I came to be in possession of it. I scanned the original photograph along with my letter and saved both to my computer - in those days I had a flat bed scanner...
Did you scan the photograph and letter in full colour or just black and white?
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In recent days, I have been visited by an influential member of MI5, and the record has been put straight, but sadly I have been told that I must not ever post the images of Sheila on the bed showing her with only a solitary shot in her neck, otherwise I will be arrested and charged for posting material withheld under pii...
Mike, this could be seen as a 'get out clause' in respect of you being under pressure to share the alleged image in question. I could be wrong but I think you have historically cited PII as being a bar to you sharing the said image.
I have been visited by two secret service officials and advised not to post the images... They have been to visit my informants, and gave them all the 'Scarborough warning' ...
I am not prepared to be threatened in this manner...
Mike, a quick internet search reveals that a 'Scarborough warning' is an attack carried out prior to a warning being given. In what sense are you using the term?
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I have been . . . advised not to post the images, one of which I took possession of at Ewen Smiths office, . . .
You should heed that advice, but it doesn't prevent you from sending a copy to, say, the defence team, or to Roch or ngb1066 . . ., or allowing them access to a copy of it in much the same way that you got access to it in the first place.
and the other which was copied from ACC Simpsons secret file which he kept in his office safe.
That's presumably just an allegation given to you about its source. However, you've never stated you have a copy of the second image, so you're not yet able to do anything with it, right?